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Ralek
11-03-2001, 04:20 AM
Rickson Gracie defeated a wing chung guy who was freakin huge. Rickson was much smaller and weaker. Although the kung fu guys may be bigger and stronger they still suck. Jiujitsu's smooth technique easily destroyed Wing chun despite a major strength and size disadvantage.

The wing chun guy's name is David Levicki. Rickson took him down, kneed his spine, then smashed his face in with punches from the mount.

Here it is: www.bjj.org/images/Rickson/VT94/rg94-03.jpg (http://www.bjj.org/images/Rickson/VT94/rg94-03.jpg)

Brazilian jiujitsu is superior.

Ralek
11-03-2001, 04:26 AM
And as usual when the kung fu guys get beat down all the other kung fuers who are sitting in their arm chairs denouce the kung fu guy who lost as a fake. Well it's happened again with David Levicki. When will a "real" kung fu fighter step up?

I'm sure there is a reason that the kung fu guys choose David Levicki to be the one to fight. I'm thinking it's becuase he could beat up all the other kung fu guys?

Brazilian jiujitsu is superior.

Felipe Bido
11-03-2001, 04:30 AM
I think he's doing something else down there... :D

I apologize..I am quite happy tonight ;)

-------------------------Anybody who goes to see a psychiatrist ought to have his head examined.
--Samuel Goldwin

Ryu
11-03-2001, 04:40 AM
I like Rickson's clinch here. Not really too high and not too low. Hmmm.
He demonstrated clinching to me personally when I was just starting out in grappling. But it was more of a high clinch, not really going around the waist. Ah, I'm just talkin.

I can say one thing though, I'm not even a Wing Chun guy, and I know Levicki didn't look like anyone I've ever seen who performed what was deemed as "good" wing chun

Ryu

http://judoinfo.com/images/kimuraosawa.jpg


"One who takes pride in shallow knowledge or understanding is like a monkey who delights in adorning itself with garbage."

Archangel
11-03-2001, 04:47 AM
Well neither did Rezra Nasri. Do you remember him Ryu, he was the Iranian guy who was one of Emine Boztepes students. He got tossed on his head by Brian Johnston and then grounded and pounded. I haven't seen anyone use the vaunted chain punches in MMA yet either.

Ralek
11-03-2001, 04:54 AM
Ok. Let's say David Levicki sucks at wing chun. So where are all the real auwsome wing chuners at? I can't seem to find any. Where did they go?

I think it's time for kung fu guys to start considering that maybe....... just maybe there might be a tiny possiblility that kung fu does not work.

Brazilian jiujitsu is superior.

Watchman
11-03-2001, 05:05 AM
How many times do we have to have the same conversation?

And as usual when the kung fu guys get beat down all the other kung fuers who are sitting in their arm chairs denouce the kung fu guy who lost as a fake.

Let me say this one more time: I know Levicki was a "fake" because I knew him personally. He came into the school I trained at and I went to UFC2 with him.

His training amounted to nothing more than less than year's worth of spotty attendance to a twice-weekly two hour class.

I'm sure there is a reason that the kung fu guys choose David Levicki to be the one to fight.

Nobody "chose" Dave - he got himself involved all on his own (through a large amount of B.S.)

Brazilian jiujitsu is superior.

Well, as far as that particular fight is concerned, the only thing Rickson proved is that he can beat down overrated, unskilled, washed-up meth addict tomato cans. :rolleyes:

Are you happy you trolled me again, Rolls? This never gets old for you, does it?

Ralek
11-03-2001, 05:10 AM
Wow!!!! He trained at your school!

So. Could the guys at your school beat David Levicki? Levicki had no skills in wing chun? Can you give an estimate on how many classes he attended a month?

Why did Levicki try to make himself fight in the Vale Tudo? Did he want to test out his wing chun? Make money? For fun?

Brazilian jiujitsu is superior.

Watchman
11-03-2001, 05:17 AM
Could the guys at your school beat David Levicki?

Yes.

Levicki had no skills in wing chun?

Very little.

Can you give an estimate on how many classes he attended a month?

I can't remember for sure, but I was there all the time and he wasn't.

Why did Levicki try to make himself fight in the Vale Tudo?

Ego and external validation.

BTW Rolls, is this a catch-and-relese thread?

shinwa
11-03-2001, 05:23 AM
For one thing Wing Chun is really meant for people with a smaller frame, so...

And like, why the heck are you trying to say this guy represents a whole system? That guy represents himself just like anyone else who fights in any tournament. Do yopu think Rickson Gracies represnts BJJ? As in everyone who does BJJ will fight as well as Rickson Gracie? That's absurd my man. Everyone knows how to run, but do we all run like CarlLewis?

Style vs Style talk is pathetic. It will always come down to individual stylist. Martial artist should know this!

Ralek
11-03-2001, 05:26 AM
The guys at your school could beat David Levicki!!! So did they spar or something? Do they do hard contact sparring or something at your school or are you just assuming that they would beat David Levicki?

If they beat David Levicki then maybe they should consider going into NHB. There are very little rules compared to san shou and wing chun works best with as little rules as possible? You guys could make a good clean $100,000 dollars in one night. Go for it.

Brazilian jiujitsu is superior.

Ralek
11-03-2001, 05:29 AM
Watchman. Did you beat David Levicki?

Brazilian jiujitsu is superior.

Watchman
11-03-2001, 05:38 AM
Watchman. Did you beat David Levicki?

Yes and no. Dave and I sparred quite frequently.

I only had about a year's worth of training when he came into the school, so I was still pretty raw. As soon as I got over the intimidation factor from his size I learned that I could take him down pretty much at will with good footwork, leg kicks, and leg sweeps at clinch range because he overextended himself all the time trying to throw his body mass around. He also couldn't take a good body punch.

If they beat David Levicki then maybe they should consider going into NHB. You guys could make a good clean $100,000 dollars in one night. Go for it.

LOL!

Rolls, you hook me up with a promoter that will offer a $100,000 purse and I'll happily get beat down just for the appearance fee. :D

PHILBERT
11-03-2001, 05:55 AM
Hey, I am sure the anus has answered this before, but I don't really read his posts (each time I do I get mad at his retarded anus)

so Ralek, why do you come here? So what if you think BJJ is superior? You come here and say BJJ is better than any martial art, the ultimate fighting system, claim you can take anyone (and you've never fought anyone here before), and talk all this trash about Kung Fu.

WHY?!

So what if BJJ truly is superior? If it is, THEN SO FUÇKING WHAT?! If we like the martial art, then let us practice the martial art. If BJJ is so Holy, then you go over to the Underground or some other website with BJJ and stay there. This site is about Kung Fu, not about how you stand around, wankering, and talking trash about the art.

We all know what you think of Kung Fu and BJJ. So maybe you should just stop talking trash, you aren't going to sway anyone into thinking any less of the art by saying BJJ is superior than everything else. So why don't you just stop talking trash about it and act like your age for once. You might actually LEARN something if you act nice around these people. Lord knows I have learned alot of stuff by paying attention and not saying that such and such art is better. If BJJ is better, who cares? You shouldnt waste your time trying to convince people that it is better. We are entitled to our opinions.

God why don't they just ban him?

PHILBERT

Xebsball
11-03-2001, 06:12 AM
Ralek, you never learn do you?

Watchman said it all, so i wont say anything more.

-------------------------
"I AM EFFECTIVNESS"

CanadianBadAss
11-03-2001, 06:15 AM
http://www.bjj.org/images/Rickson/VT94/rg94-03.jpg

why dosn't the big guy start pounding on the back of the little guys head or back?

|) /- | | |
| / |_|

Watchman
11-03-2001, 06:19 AM
Because Rickson wasn't just standing there in one place holding on to Levicki - he was driving him full force back into the ropes, putting Levicki off balance and unable to strike before quickly switching to a side body lock and leg trip takedown.

Martial Joe
11-03-2001, 07:58 AM
I didnt read pas posts but I think whoever was better would have one the fight...

The guy was not as good as one of the best in the world...so give wing chun a break eh?

That guy most likely sucked compared to gracie...


Who cares...shut the **** up...

http://www.stopstart.fsnet.co.uk/smilie/lolup.gif IXIJoe KaveyIXIhttp://www.stopstart.fsnet.co.uk/smilie/lolup.gif
I am Sharky's main man...

Ryu
11-03-2001, 08:14 AM
Watchman, thanks for responding to the comment above. :)

Archangel, yeah I remember Reza Nasri! I actually have one of his videos! (I watched it once, and only a couple of other times for humor's sake.)
Was he one of Emin's top players?? I never knew that. Reza deemed himself a wrestler in the UFC, not Wing Chun. The only thing close to the chain punches I've seen in NHB is ala Vitor Belfort in Ultimate Brazil.

Arch, do you know anything about Reza's real wrestling record? From the video I have of his style, it doesn't look like wrestling with any good base to it. :(

Ryu

http://judoinfo.com/images/kimuraosawa.jpg


"One who takes pride in shallow knowledge or understanding is like a monkey who delights in adorning itself with garbage."

wushu chik
11-03-2001, 08:30 AM
You know....MY 4 year old son has more intelligent conversations and arguments than you, and he sure the hell knows how to lie better. One thing though....I WILL CHALLENGE YOU. And we will see what's better...your pathetic BJJ or MY KUNG FU. Now that you have been challenged by a girl, I CERTAINLY HOPE YOU DON'T TURN THIS ONE DOWN, as you would look pretty **** stupid...Not that you don't anyway.

And as for Watchman....HI! ;)

I am ALWAYS Kung Fu Fighting.....what about you?

Jeff Liboiron
11-03-2001, 09:09 AM
What's Wing Chung?

The object is not to hurt someone else, but to stop them from hurting you

tnwingtsun
11-03-2001, 09:20 AM
"Was he one of Emin's top players??"

NO

Braden
11-03-2001, 09:40 AM
"I think it's time for kung fu guys to start considering that maybe....... just maybe there might be a tiny possiblility that kung fu does not work."

If you're not sure that what you do works, regardless of your style, than you've allready failed.

If you think validation comes from what other people have done, you're looking in the wrong place.

Ryu
11-03-2001, 10:11 AM
For some reason I thought Archange had said in his post that Reza was one of Emin's TOP students.
I went back to look, and he didn't say that at all. My fault. Sorry for the confusion. :(

Ryu

http://judoinfo.com/images/kimuraosawa.jpg


"One who takes pride in shallow knowledge or understanding is like a monkey who delights in adorning itself with garbage."

diego
11-03-2001, 10:51 AM
.

"I finish the job with a tiger claw into the throat. Remember guys'INSERT CORNY WHITEBOY VOICE' use extreme violence against your opponents always, that will discourage them from hurting other people" kungfu site technique sec.VS?."...

jimbob
11-03-2001, 11:42 AM
Rolls

You forgot to mention that Levicki had also trained in BJJ for about a year before that fight with Rickson. The BJJ training didn't seem to do him much good either, huh?

Wongsifu
11-03-2001, 04:15 PM
ralek man you sound shocked that there are kung fu schools that do full contact fighting :)

what do bin laden and general custer have in common????
They're both wondering where the fu(k all of those tomahawks are coming from. - donated by mojo

Archangel
11-03-2001, 07:03 PM
Rezra from what I can remember is Iranian. Now the Iranians are bad a s s e s when it comes to the international wrestling circuit; It is their national sport afterall. I've followed the circuit for years and I've never heard his name mentioned; actually I was in Istanbul a few years back and I got to see the American/Turkish/Iranian Tri meet (Iranians Won) and don't ever remember hearing his name.

It would really surprise me if he was a legit wrestler. He got taken down by a simple body lock by a kickboxer, (I think Johnston was a Judoka as well). Anyways about his Wing Chun skills, I just don't know. He is from what I've heard at Instructor level (correct me if I'm wrong someone), and yet he could not display any of Wing Chuns vaunted techniques.

Maybe this guy just sucked in general?

Archangel
11-03-2001, 07:06 PM
Has anybody heard of any of these 2 Wing Chun fighters


Scott Baker - Lost to Jason Delucia UFC 2

Asbel Cansio - Lost to Dave Beneteau UFC 6

Piccolo Junior
11-03-2001, 07:44 PM
Guys like Rolls think Kung Fu is the same thing as Sport Karate, they think it's all no-contact sparring and flashy moves with no power. Really, all good Kung Fu schools spar full contact (I think no-contact sparring was invented by the Japanese), and good Kung Fu fighters punch with alot of power. Wing Chun is probably the least flashy, most practical Kung Fu style I know of.

"It is necessary to drink alcohol and pursue other fun human activities. The art of someone who is too serious has no flavour."- Choki Motobu

Martial Joe
11-03-2001, 08:31 PM
People dont get it...Kung Fu is for stand up.

If you wan to be a well rouded fighter you crosstrain...thats how it is.I dont see why alot of people give this a hardtime.

http://www.stopstart.fsnet.co.uk/smilie/lolup.gif IXIJoe KaveyIXIhttp://www.stopstart.fsnet.co.uk/smilie/lolup.gif
I am Sharky's main man...

Mr. Nemo
11-03-2001, 08:44 PM
I think we should all take a moment to appreciate Ralek's skill. Even after all this time on the forum, even after most everyone here knows who he is, knows his history, knows he's a troll, knows he doesn't train bjj... he still gets a rise out of people.

Others like vasco de gama and chokeyouout2 try to troll, but barely anyone notices them. That spitting backfist guy everyone caught on to pretty quickly; maybe he could have been good, but he doesn't post anymore. Ralek, on the other hand, continues to consistently have threads at the top. He is the Rickson Gracie of trolling KFO.

eightfist
11-03-2001, 08:55 PM
I firmly believe that the martial arts are made up of superior people not superior arts. It is pretty obvious they all work for someone or they would not be around at all. I do not think it is fair to insult other arts when you simply do not have experience with each and every practitioner of every art. If you fought everybody who does wing chun, at least then your statement would be more valid but it is a simple fact that in every school are students that love their art and yet they are not great at it. Who Cares? If they are getting what they want out of it then it does not matter... and anyway if someone may not fight well, it doesn't mean they are not skilled in other aspects of the art, not everything in the arts is about fighting you know. I think we all seek some form of inner peace from them be it by becoming a mean lean fighting machine or simply conquering our minds. I have met a few BJJ practitioners that are respectful, descent people like in any club.... and of course the few who believe they do the greatest art to ever be created, why can't we all just see we seek the same things?

"The more you know, the more you know you don't know"

wufupaul
11-03-2001, 09:31 PM
I remember a while back, it must have been at least 5 years ago, he had some wrestling for fighting videos in the ads in the back of either Black Belt or IKF. He also wrote a few articles, I'll see if I can dig them up.

In three words I can sum up everything I've learned about
life. IT GOES ON.

Ryu
11-03-2001, 10:17 PM
Yeah, that's one of the ones I have.
His wrestling videos...

I prefer my Dan Gable essentials much much better.


Ryu

http://judoinfo.com/images/kimuraosawa.jpg


"One who takes pride in shallow knowledge or understanding is like a monkey who delights in adorning itself with garbage."

les paul
11-03-2001, 10:47 PM
Ralek is also the hardest working troll Ive ever seen.

Gotta be something deep inside him pushing his stupidity.

I think it was a major azz whoopin by somebody who does CMA.

Chang Style Novice
11-03-2001, 11:41 PM
Is wing chung similar to muy thai? 'Cause I know Wing Chun has nothing to do with Muay Thai.

_______________________
I am the Grand Ultimate Silk Pyjama

Wongsifu
11-04-2001, 12:01 AM
all jokes aside a guy that big must be a nobrainer to actually try to use wing chun, if i were that big , sod it man i would do a style of kung fu that emphasies excessive external strength !!!! I would actually do freestyle wrestling or something , man that guy is goliath !!!!

what do bin laden and general custer have in common????
They're both wondering where the fu(k all of those tomahawks are coming from. - donated by mojo

blaktiger
11-04-2001, 12:20 AM
Well I don't know about you guys, but I'm dying to see Wushu Chik beat some sense into Ralek. Hell if it's in my neck of the woods, I'd even volunteer to tape it!

+++++++++++++++++++++++++
"I'll be too busy lookin' good!"

LEGEND
11-04-2001, 01:06 AM
I have to agree with WONGSIFU...the hell was DAVE thinking??? Wing Chun is a great style for fast small moving peeps...Dave should have studied muy thai/boxing and counter takedown techs.

A

Merryprankster
11-04-2001, 02:00 AM
To the poster who asked about "why didn't the big guy start pounding on the back and neck of the littler guy."

The reason, is not just that he's going backwards. It's also because that is the singularly most useless takedown defense in the world. Power generation is almost nil from that position. He might have annoyed Rickson, but nothing more.

Ralek
11-04-2001, 02:09 AM
Wushu Chik. Sorry. I decline your challenge. I'm not fighting any girls.

So Watchman has beaten up this really huge guy!!! Wow! Watchman has defeated the same guy Rickson Gracie did!!! Watchman must be one bad ass wing chun fighter! Watchman. Why don't you sign up for King of the Cage? Once you start winning amatuer competitions you will be able to go to the professional.

Watchman. Are you telling the truth that you beat David Levicki? He's really big. You must be really good to beat him. You say you get in body shots against him?

Brazilian jiujitsu is superior.

Wongsifu
11-04-2001, 02:23 AM
is that sarcasm in raleks voice i detect ******, or does he just wanna say , hey i know watchman he's the current ufc nhb mma pride k-1 cbr zzr, champion, and i once beat a friend of his (shaolin tiger) in a blood battle, and i also beat watchman at mouth boxing

what do bin laden and general custer have in common????
They're both wondering where the fu(k all of those tomahawks are coming from. - donated by mojo

Wongsifu
11-04-2001, 02:26 AM
btw ralek you are definately gay if a girl asks you to spar with her you say yes , roll around a bit with her , lose and make her feel good. you never decline a roll around with a girl

what do bin laden and general custer have in common????
They're both wondering where the fu(k all of those tomahawks are coming from. - donated by mojo

Piccolo Junior
11-04-2001, 02:26 AM
Bigness is not an important factor in fighting. I know this inbred hillbilly who is ENORMOUS, but I doubt he's a great fighter. Skill and power is much more important in fighting, the Gracies have proven this.

"It is necessary to drink alcohol and pursue other fun human activities. The art of someone who is too serious has no flavour."- Choki Motobu

Watchman
11-04-2001, 02:34 AM
So Watchman has beaten up this really huge guy!!! Wow! Watchman has defeated the same guy Rickson Gracie did!!!

They were in-class sparring matches (which are a bit different than going full tilt in a fight), where I took my fair share of lumps as well. I never beat him in an actual fight.

Rickson beating him was no big deal as well. Let's remember that the ONLY pro fighting experience Dave had before his scuffle with Rickson was his wash-out in the prelims of UFC2.

Dave wasn't as dangerous as the impression his size would lead you to believe.

You say you get in body shots against him?

Yes, and leg kicks as well. I also took my fair share of punishment as well.

Watchman must be one bad ass wing chun fighter!

Not really.

mwatson
11-04-2001, 04:05 AM
You know why the creaters of Kung Fu didn't grapple? BECAUSE KUNGFU WAS CREATED FOR WAR AND WAR USED WEAPONS AND IF YOU TRIED TO GRAPPLE A GUY WITH A KNIFE,SPEAR,SWORD,ETC YOU WOULD GET YOU THROTE SLIT, YOUR GUTS CUT OUT, AND YOUR ARMS CUT OFF. NHB AINT SH@T COMPARED TO WAR. ITS LIKE COMPARING A KNIFE TO A GUN.

They were busy killing each other with weapons skills and standup combat because if you tried to grapple you would be in an early grave.

JUST MY OPINION. :cool:

wushu chik
11-04-2001, 09:10 AM
I challenged you publicly, and you turn me down? Wouldn't you think that since I challenged YOU, there was a purpose behind it? I was sure that since you don't take challenges from ANYONE ELSE ON HERE, that you might think that your mighty skills can beat a lowly girl.

As for me being a girl, who cares, the fact of the matter is, I laid down a challenge for YOU to take, and you pu$$ out...LIKE YOU ALWAYS DO! But, I will say one thing in your favor...I don't like hitting cowards, it makes me look like the bad girl. Oh well, keep on Trolling, and maybe one day, one of us will run into you and shove those unintelligent words right down your little B!TCH throat!!

I am ALWAYS Kung Fu Fighting.....what about you?

Grahf1
11-04-2001, 10:06 AM
Wushu Chick, we all know Ralek is a troll and all, but honestly I don't think any other guy on this forum would accept a challenge from you.

wushu chik
11-04-2001, 10:16 AM
I am just curious WHY you think that nobody would accept a challenge from me? Is it because I am a female?

I am ALWAYS Kung Fu Fighting.....what about you?

Ryu
11-04-2001, 10:22 AM
urusai...



http://judoinfo.com/images/kimuraosawa.jpg


"One who takes pride in shallow knowledge or understanding is like a monkey who delights in adorning itself with garbage."

Kiasyd
11-04-2001, 04:13 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
So Watchman has beaten up this really huge guy!!! Wow! Watchman has defeated the same guy Rickson Gracie did!!! Watchman must be one bad ass wing chun fighter! Watchman. Why don't you sign up for King of the Cage?
[/quote]

There is life beyond the cage, Ralek... Do you think you'll be able to leave yours anytime soon? Maybe then you'll stop talking bullsh|t. ;)

-- Kiasyd

Badger
11-04-2001, 04:25 PM
Mestre Hulk a Capoeira stylist beat Amaury Bitteti a BJJ stylist by knockout in a 1996 match in Brazil.

I guess Capoeira is the ULTIMATE style.

Badger

Support The Economy. Buy A Gun.≥

Badger
11-04-2001, 04:42 PM
Make Ralek your Biatch!!!

There is just something really sexy about a girl who can kick butt.


Badger

Support The Economy. Buy A Gun.

Budokan
11-04-2001, 05:05 PM
:rolleyes:

Rolls, stop challenging yourself.

K. Mark Hoover

Piccolo Junior
11-04-2001, 05:31 PM
You think everybody is Rolls, don't you. I know, you're Rolls!

"It is necessary to drink alcohol and pursue other fun human activities. The art of someone who is too serious has no flavour."- Choki Motobu

toddbringewatt
11-04-2001, 06:37 PM
Why isn't he smashing the **** out of Gracie's spine in this shot?!!!

If this is really superior BJJ I hope to GOD the next guy who wants to start some **** with me attacks like this. WHAT AN OPPORTUNITY!

"Bruce Leroy. That's who!"

Xebsball
11-04-2001, 06:58 PM
I would accept her challenge, but thats if i didnt like her. She is nice so under todays circunstances i would not accept it.

But Ralek is a wuss anyway, i accepted his challenge but he is afraid to come here.

-------------------------
"I AM EFFECTIVNESS"

CD Lee
11-04-2001, 08:24 PM
He is the champ because he uses 10 excellent techniques that are sure bets on succefful trolling:

1. He picks a topic of irritation, and sticks to it no matter what.

2. Only answers questions in short phrases.

3. Delights in connecting a single event with a system of people.

4. Ignores any questions that hamper his message.

5. Never has a long post

6. Keeps all his logic to very simple black and white statements, which drive everybody nuts becuase he knows everybody else thinks.

7. Keeps all logic on 1st grade level by design. At that age, kids do not think abstractly well, and logic is limited to say..."It is going to rain today because it is Friday. It rained last Friday, so it will rain today right?"

8. He is dedicated to his art form.

9. He cites video games as a 'training technique' to incite deep seeded anger from martial artists. This is his most beautiful creation as a base to troll from.

10. And last but not least...He has to do something to recover in between his extraneous activities and physical exsertion while beating off to Gracie videos. And to catch his breath. He uses this technique to build his limited cardiovascular system.

Don't mess with RJJ, Ralakian Jiu Jitsu! :D :D :D

Archangel
11-04-2001, 08:46 PM
In the past your posts have been informative and intelligent but forgive me, it's obvious they are not backed up with experience. Any good striker knows that a good strike requires proper technique and a solid foundation starting from your feet. You have none of this, I repeat none of this while your are being driven 5 feet in the air or driven hard to the mat. Any strike that is attempted at this point is futile, you do not any power nevertherless knockout power. The first thing you have to do is defend the takedown, regain your base and then strike.

Silumkid
11-04-2001, 09:33 PM
Feel free to correct me if I am wrong, I can't tell which event that was from the pic but aren't back of the head and spine strikes illegal moves in NHB? From prior posts regarding UFC rules, they are illegal there, right?

As far as (T)Rolls/Ralek goes, I've already accepted his so-called challenge. His answer...I can't travel. That's the biggest cop-out I have ever heard. I guess he thinks he is above the Gracies since they travel to their events.

I also smack up Wushu Chik from time to time and I can say she would take Ralek out, no problem. So it's a good thing he already wimped out. He hasn't actually beaten anyone yet, and would be way too embarassing from him to get his skinny azz handed to him by a girl. I'm afraid it would lead him to come out of the closet, finally.

We are trained in wushu; we must protect the Temple!

Archangel
11-04-2001, 09:51 PM
That pic was taken during the Japan Vale Tudo 96 I think. The rules were no eye gouges and no biting, everything else was legal.

Silumkid
11-04-2001, 10:07 PM
Cool! Thanks for the info Arch!

We are trained in wushu; we must protect the Temple!

Ryu
11-04-2001, 10:39 PM
Bruce, I agree with Arch here.
I don't mean to sound cocky, but I love when my opponents think they can take me out by hitting my spine when I come in.


Ryu

http://judoinfo.com/images/kimuraosawa.jpg


"One who takes pride in shallow knowledge or understanding is like a monkey who delights in adorning itself with garbage."

Jaguar Wong
11-04-2001, 10:41 PM
I think Ralek's superior level of comprehesion, and powers of deduction and reasoning should really inspire everyone to stay in school. :) Knowledge is King!

According to Ralek:
A) I start a fight with Mike Tyson, and he KO's me with a sharp left hook

B) Later on (let's say a month later, if I didn't suffer any really serious injuries), I lose to my brother in a sparring match (let's just say for kicks, he chokes me out at the 5 minute mark) where we allowed heavy contact.

Ralek's conclusion, wow, Tigerstyle is a very tough and skilled fighter, and he can easily get rich in the Pro Boxing circuit, because he defeated one of Mike Tyson's opponents.

... Remember kids, Don't smoke Crack.

Jaguar Wong

"If you learn to balance a tack hammer on your head
then you learn to head up a balanced attack!"
- The Sphinx

gfhegel21
11-04-2001, 10:42 PM
Ralek is a weak imitation of Luke Beston from the Underground forum.

Badger
11-04-2001, 10:48 PM
Ralek is a weak imitation of the turd I just flushed!

Badger

Support The Economy. Buy A Gun.

toddbringewatt
11-04-2001, 11:26 PM
Archangel,

"In the past your posts have been informative and intelligent but forgive me, it's obvious they are not backed up with experience."

Thank you. You're forgiven. And as far as experience goes: A) look up the word "obvious". I think you may have missed something there. B) I'll take my three years of Hwa Rang Do training any day over your argument here:

"Any good striker knows that a good strike requires proper technique and a solid foundation starting from your feet."

Bologna. What it REQUIRES is IMPACT with FORCE and that's it. If you can't deliver impact with force without being solidly on your feet you're in a world of hurt as a martial artist. You can't strike on your back? You can't strike while you're falling? You can't strike in the air? What's the matter with you?

"You have none of this, I repeat none of this while your are being driven 5 feet in the air or driven hard to the mat."

Why, I repeat, why let your opponent get that far? If you'll notice in the photo the Wing Chun gentleman's feet are still on the ground. So the photo doesn't even fit your original premise much less the five feet in the air non-sense.

"Any strike that is attempted at this point is futile"

Why? Suddenly your arms don't work because you aren't upright with your feet on the floor? What kind of a malfunctioning body do you have? Mine seems to work fine in any position.

"you do not any power nevertherless knockout power."

Maybe YOU don't. But I can tell you from EXPERIENCE that if you shoot in on me like that, the point of my elbow is going to do far more damage to your spine than you'd care to experience whether I'm five feet in the air or not.

"The first thing you have to do is defend the takedown, regain your base and then strike."

Screw that. Somebody puts their body within striking distance? Demolish it! Why defend when you can just as easily attack?

You want to test your theory? You try that Gracie maneuver in a fight against even an intermediate Hwa Rang Do practitioner. Let me know how it goes.

"Bruce Leroy. That's who!"

Archangel
11-05-2001, 12:09 AM
"I'll take my three years of Hwa Rang Do training any day over your argument here:"

Oh, were going to spout off lineages here, well thats not my cup of tea. I'll ask you though how many times have you tried to stop a takedown from a good experienced grappler. I've been training with wrestlers for a good portion of my life in the sport venue and again with MMA. I've tried it thousands of times with people from various styles and 99% of the time I come up with the same conclusion. You cannot stop a takedown with just striking.

"Bologna. What it REQUIRES is IMPACT with FORCE and that's it. If you can't deliver impact with force without being solidly on your feet you're in a world of hurt as a martial artist. You can't strike on your back? You can't strike while you're falling? You can't strike in the air? What's the matter with you?"

WRONG WRONG WRONG, every good striker I have trained with insists that power starts from your feet goes up your body and is transfered to the strike. Of course you can still strike while being taken down but strike EFFECTIVELY..... NO. Actually lets do a forum poll here, anybody thats reading this please respond.

"Why, I repeat, why let your opponent get that far? If you'll notice in the photo the Wing Chun gentleman's feet are still on the ground. So the photo doesn't even fit your original premise much less the five feet in the air non-sense."

That is a STILL photo of a takedown in its initial stages. I have that fight on tape, in fact Rickson drives Levicki from the center of the ring through the ropes onto the floor. David didn't "let" Rickson take him down; he couldn't properly defend it, he couldn't strike effectively so he was forced to the ground.

"Why? Suddenly your arms don't work because you aren't upright with your feet on the floor? What kind of a malfunctioning body do you have? Mine seems to work fine in any position."

Because your strikes are not effective nor powerful at this point. If you don't know how to defend the takedown you're better off trying to break your fall and not get knocked out from the takedown.

"Maybe YOU don't. But I can tell you from EXPERIENCE that if you shoot in on me like that, the point of my elbow is going to do far more damage to your spine than you'd care to experience whether I'm five feet in the air or not."

Please tell me about your experience, I'd love to hear about what you've done.

"Screw that. Somebody puts their body within striking distance? Demolish it! Why defend when you can just as easily attack?"

It's so easy to sit there and theorise what you would do. I've seen 12 years of MMA fights, all of which are documented and easily viewable on video tape. literally thousands of fights and all of them say that you are wrong. I've never seen what you are implying work.

"You want to test your theory? You try that Gracie maneuver in a fight against even an intermediate Hwa Rang Do practitioner. Let me know how it goes."

Actually there is a guy on this forum named Knifefighter, hes in your area and he can set one of you guys up with MMA fighters for professional fights any rules you want. Leave him a message, and tape it if you can.

Badger
11-05-2001, 12:38 AM
It's easy to say you would do this or do that against a grappler or whatever by just watching & critisizing a video.


Hwa Rang Do? Isn't that Tae Kwon Do with "pretty" uniforms?

i ;)


Badger

Support The Economy. Buy A Gun.

JWTAYLOR
11-05-2001, 12:45 AM
Mr. Leroy, striking the spine with effect is quite possible to do during a takedown attempt. It is quite difficult to do during a takedown.

JWT

If you pr!ck us, do we not bleed? If you poison us, do we not die? And if you wrong us, shall we not revenge? If we are like you in the rest, we will resemble you in that the villany you teach me, I will execute, and it shall go hard but I will better the instruction. MOV

joedoe
11-05-2001, 12:59 AM
I'd have to agree - you should first be stopping the takedown attempt, then counter-attacking once you have nullified the takedown. When someone is coming at you with a lot of momentum behind them it is not as easy to stop them as you might think. As any footballer.

cxxx[]:::::::::::>
You're fu(king up my chi

Braden
11-05-2001, 01:24 AM
The argument is clearly not as one-sided as AA and Bruce are suggesting. However, for the most part, AA is clearly correct. When you're in mid-air being bowled over by someone, you're not going to be hitting them particularly hard.

In regards to being able (or not) to stop a takedown with striking alone...

How do you define striking?

Is striking maintaining distance and out 'kickboxing' your opponent? This seems to be how most people define striking - however, I think this is a useless definition, as if this is the case, I don't think striking is ever a realistic strategy for ANY combat scenario. IMHO, skillfull combat (whether standing or on the ground, 'striking' or 'grappling') is won via offbalancing, positioning, maintaining your posture, and breaking your opponents posture. This cannot be done via 'out kickboxing' someone. So my definition includes a variety of methods of opponent control other than siezing and locking and/or lifting/throwing (which is what I would call grappling). By this definition I would say you can counter a shoot with striking. By the standard definition can you? You CAN, but I you can't rely on it happening. And when your life what is at stake, you'd better rely on things you can, uh... rely on.

Wongsifu
11-05-2001, 02:27 AM
as i understand it this argument about hitting someone during the takedown has been played over and over again soo many times that it drives me nuts. In essence all i can say is most of the fighters nowadays that enter these competitions cant knock out the opposing fighter face to fact let alone whilst the guy is attempting a take down. However with all logic still intact and not succumbing to the stupidity of the undefendable takedown, the timing needed to react to a takedown is the same as one needed to react to a punch if you can block a punch you can try sometihng during a takedown, an i would much rather be driving my elbow into the back of the guy doing the takedwon than being the guy exposing my back to the enemy.

Besides what sort of stupid comment is it to say "
"ITS QUITE IMPOSSIBLE TO HIT WHILST FLYING IN THE AIR BACKWARDS FROM THE TAKEDOWN" when was th elast time you heard a fighter say "yeah well you know i blocked the punch after it hit me." duh the whole point is reacting before the move is executed fully.

this argument is the epitome of fighting versus grapplign though isnt it? , it all boils down that if you wanna beat a grappler without grappling you gotta have a punch that can ko fast, without this power , you cant win, wether its while youre squaring off to him , or whilst he attempts the takedown you step back forward sideways and try to hit him to ko him. The bottom line is you need ko power.

what do bin laden and general custer have in common????
They're both wondering where the fu(k all of those tomahawks are coming from. - donated by mojo

Archangel
11-05-2001, 03:30 AM
Braden

Why do you always have to make things so difficult ;) hehe but in essence you're right.


Wong oh Wong

Heres a list of the strikers in the UFC AGAIN


Orlando Weit - Muay Thai
1992 World Kickboxing Champion
1988 European Champ
1985 Dutch Champ


Gerard Gordeau - Savate, Kyokoshin Kai
90-92 World Boxe Francais HW Champ
8 Yeays Dutch National Karate Champ
Founding memeber of the original K1


James Warring - Boxing
IBF Cruiserweight Champ


Melton Bowen - Boxing
WBC Intercontinental Champ
2 X New York State Golden Gloves Champ


Pat Smith - Karate, Kickboxing, TKD
2 X World Sabaki Champion
KICK Super Heavyweight Champ


Jerome Turcan - Savate
#6 Ranked WKA Muay Thai Cruiserweight in the world


Moti Horenstein - Karate, Kickboxing
86-88 Israeli Kickboxing Champion
1996 OYAMA Shidokan Champion


Mo Smith
WKA Heavyweight kickboxing Champ
WKA MT Champ

If they couldn't do it tell me how are you going to.

Mr. Nemo
11-05-2001, 04:18 AM
Archangel: Mo Smith actually did do it. However, I agree with your point.

How do you define striking?

"Is striking maintaining distance and out 'kickboxing' your opponent? This seems to be how most people define striking - however, I think this is a useless definition, as if this is the case, I don't think striking is ever a realistic strategy for ANY combat scenario. IMHO, skillfull combat (whether standing or on the ground, 'striking' or 'grappling') is won via offbalancing, positioning, maintaining your posture, and breaking your opponents posture. This cannot be done via 'out kickboxing' someone. So my definition includes a variety of methods of opponent control other than siezing and locking and/or lifting/throwing (which is what I would call grappling). By this definition I would say you can counter a shoot with striking. By the standard definition can you? You CAN, but I you can't rely on it happening. And when your life what is at stake, you'd better rely on things you can, uh... rely on."

As usual, Braden is correct.

Archangel
11-05-2001, 04:29 AM
Mo Smith has never knocked anybody out before he's been taken down. He's always been on the ground first, used his groundfighting skills to get back up and then finished.

toddbringewatt
11-05-2001, 05:06 AM
Archangel,

If you are so thoroughly convinced by others that grounded feet are necessary to EFFECTIVE striking then I'm assuming you wouldn't mind allowing a man in a wheel chair to take a free crack at your head?

Of course being grounded helps IMMENSELY but if you think a guy in a wheel chair can't knock you out cold because his feet aren't on the ground you're nuts.

Oh, and lineage schmineage. Who gives a ****. Read my post again. I think you missed my point. Three years of serious study in ANY grappling and striking art could have led me to the same conclusion.

"Bruce Leroy. That's who!"

Watchman
11-05-2001, 05:08 AM
You guys quit hijacking Rolls' thread. I'm gettin' trolled here! Go find another thread to argue on. :rolleyes:

toddbringewatt
11-05-2001, 05:18 AM
Sorry about the hijack, Watchman.

:D

"Bruce Leroy. That's who!"

Mr. Nemo
11-05-2001, 06:08 AM
"Mo Smith has never knocked anybody out before he's been taken down. He's always been on the ground first, used his groundfighting skills to get back up and then finished."

You may be right, I didn't see the whole fight, but I believe his win over Takaku Fuke in Pancrase was fought entirely standing. He did sprawl to avoid takedowns, however. Of course, that's in Pancrase, not MMA.

However, you're correct about many of Mo's other fights, in which he needed his ground skills to survive to make it to his feet again.

Nutt'nhunny
11-05-2001, 06:25 AM
Go Rickson

My vote is for the fighter that knows more, that is smarter and smoother than the brute force fighter.

Your defenitions are uct fup.

Rickson has kung fu. His wrestling style comes from Mongolia originally, as does chinese shuai chiao and chin na. He knows more and it smoother and more refined. He has kung fu. The other guy doesn't. Kung Fu will always win. Its about knowing and utilizing more.

Mantis has tons of material. Its a great system. I can spank the stuffing out of lesser martial artists that play JJ. So what. Its all about the artist, how much he knows, how hard he trained.

This ends all pointless discussion. Practice and you will know. Sweat and you will be goo

Wongsifu
11-05-2001, 05:46 PM
erm AA , you dont really have a clue do you , if someone say bjj you say muay thai if he says muay thai you say bjj.

Get a life man

Btw those guys you listed dont mean **** to me , nowadays everyone has a bloody organisation who has a champion , in my coutnry alone we hav e2 guys who came 3rd and 4th in the world champions ships and the champions of the amateur muay thai championships in thailiand ... and ... and ..and. Plz.
My sifu also came 3rd in the national sanda championships out of the whole of china 10 years ago.

what do bin laden and general custer have in common????
They're both wondering where the fu(k all of those tomahawks are coming from. - donated by mojo

Archangel
11-05-2001, 06:31 PM
Grasping at straws Bruce? Really now, a guy in a wheelchair, puuulllleesssee. I will respond though, you see here you have to stop thinking so linearly. The guy obviously can't use his feet therefore you have to go to his foundation. If the wheels to his wheelchair are firmly planted and he can derive enough weight transfer than definately the guy can knock you out. If his wheels were say rolling backward, or he was falling then I'd say no, he wouldn't have enough power to knock me out while i was trying to take him down. (HAHA, i'm just imagining myself taking down a guy in a wheel chair).

"Three years of serious study in ANY grappling and striking art could have led me to the same conclusion."

Please tell me about this experience. I really want to know how you came to a conclusion that contradicts everything I've seen in training and 8 years of MMA competitions.

WONG oh WONG

How misinformed are you, James Warring was an IBF champion. IBF the biggest governing body in boxing. Mo Smith and Gerard Gordeau fought in K1, K1 is the richest tournament in Martial arts; Hardly obscure.

Ok, just for fun; if these guys aren't good enough who would you consider good enough to represent striking in MMA?

Merryprankster
11-05-2001, 06:47 PM
Wong, Bruce Leroy:

Please explain, from the position shown in the picture on this thread, what elbow strike David Levicki should have used to nullify the takedown.

-I want to know where he should have struck.

-I want to know where his power generation would
have come from. Remember-Rickson is IN, his
head is in David's chest, preventing waist
torque of any sort w/regards to Rickson's upper
body, and Levicki's weight is going BACKWARDS.

-I want to know how this slows down or prevents
the takedown.

-I want to know what comes next in case it
doesn't work right the first time. Remember,
once David has committed himself to the elbow,
David has maybe one whole second before Rickson
finishes the takedown and is in his world.

Don't tell me what he should have done to prevent Rickson from getting there in the first place. It's too late for that. Tell me how he deals with it once it happens.

chokeyouout2
11-05-2001, 09:11 PM
I'm devastated to think that you believe I a troll.Ralek causes all you guys to respond to him because his internet personna is unlogical and childish.This creates whats seems to be a easy target for some to display their mental prowess.He isn't looking for reason , he's looking for response.BTW I do train.

When you'r telling one of your little stories, here's a idea; Have a point, it makes it so much more interesting for the reader.

Nexus
11-05-2001, 09:14 PM
I didn't even need to read the last 3 pages of this thread to see that Ralek successfully pulled everyone into the usual Trolling that he is so good at. He hasn't posted for the last 3 pages worth of posts, probably because he is too busy laughing at them all for responding to his usual lies and trolls.

chokeyouout2
11-05-2001, 10:43 PM
Maurice Smith knocked out a very tough Carlson fighter by the name of Marcus"conan" Sylveria.
http://www.sherdog.com/fightfinder/pictures/MoSmithDefSilviera_KO.jpg
Here is another of his ko's.
http://www.sherdog.com/fightfinder/pictures/MoSmithDefKazunari_KO.jpg
When you'r telling one of your little stories, here's a idea; Have a point, it makes it so much more interesting for the reader.

[This message was edited by vasco de gama on 11-06-01 at 12:52 PM.]

Ralek
11-06-2001, 12:36 AM
Wushu Chik. First of all, in your profile it says you are in Oregon. I'm in Maryland. You would have to fly out here.

You really think you can beat me? I've already fought a national level san shou fighter who weighs about 200 pounds. I'm sure i could take the average 130 girl.

I would not fight you anyway even if you were in my own city. Do not get the idea that i am afraid of you. If I was afraid of girls then i wouldn't be fighting san shou fighters who wiegh over 200 pounds. Girls usually wiegh around 130. There is no way a girl could beat me. Maybe Leka Veira or something could beat me but not you.

Brazilian jiujitsu is superior.

Archangel
11-06-2001, 02:56 AM
Merry,

I don't think Wongs going to answer either of our questions. You shut him up again!!!

wushu chik
11-06-2001, 03:50 AM
I can fly to you any day, anytime. Not a prob in my book. And, as well, I fight Sanshou, so I would have no problem "holding my own" with you. But you say that you fight Sanshou fighters?? I think you are full of sh!t. If you are really as good as you say you are, I would like to know where you study, who your instructor is, the works...

I am ALWAYS Kung Fu Fighting.....what about you?

Piccolo Junior
11-06-2001, 04:01 AM
If you were a fat chick, Ralek would fight you. He believes: the fatter the ass, the bigger the challenge.

"It is necessary to drink alcohol and pursue other fun human activities. The art of someone who is too serious has no flavour."- Choki Motobu

joedoe
11-06-2001, 04:17 AM
Rolls/Ralek will tell you that he doesn't train - all his learning in the fighting arts comes from video games.

Oh, and his stories get more outlandish every time he tells them.

But don't worry, he is just a troll and shouldn't really be taken seriously :)

cxxx[]:::::::::::>
You're fu(king up my chi

Sharky
11-06-2001, 04:33 AM
There's nothing wrong with fat asses.

All i wanted was some RICE CAKES! Now? WE MUST BATTLE.

Piccolo Junior
11-06-2001, 05:51 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Sharky:
There's nothing wrong with fat asses.
[/quote]

I know, but Ralek seems to think being fat makes you a better fighter.

"It is necessary to drink alcohol and pursue other fun human activities. The art of someone who is too serious has no flavour."- Choki Motobu

Martial Joe
11-06-2001, 05:56 AM
It can in some cases...


I think this should have been locked by now...

http://www.stopstart.fsnet.co.uk/smilie/lolup.gif IXIJoe KaveyIXIhttp://www.stopstart.fsnet.co.uk/smilie/lolup.gif
I am Sharky's main man...

wushu chik
11-06-2001, 06:28 AM
Why do you lie? YOU know you are a loser...WE know you are a loser. Just come out of the **** closet and admit it. You make yourself look more foolish every time you open your mouth. Anyone that proclaims that they learn BJJ off of a Gracie CD has to be a few sandwhiches shy of a picnic. Get a life and go off yourself for OUR sake!!

I am ALWAYS Kung Fu Fighting.....what about you?

triskellin
11-06-2001, 09:26 AM
wu wu, calm down girl! don't let that temper of your's get the better of you! btw, u know me too, you're famous! :eek: :D

To see what you want to see is worse than being blind.

wushu chik
11-06-2001, 10:42 AM
How's it going...I am glad to see ya. Hope all is well with ya. Don't worry, I just think that he's a pathetic waste of good breathing air!!! It's environmental polution everytime he breaths...and I think he should be banned from BREATHING!!!

Hi Watchman!!

I am ALWAYS Kung Fu Fighting.....what about you?

HuangKaiVun
11-06-2001, 01:44 PM
Don't do it, wushuchik.

In America, he'll sue your ass off if you put him in the hospital.

That's because otherwise, he won't be able to pay his medical bills.


If it weren't for this "tried-and-true" fact, my traditional kung fu butt would've already beaten him nearly to death - or worse.

toddbringewatt
11-06-2001, 03:14 PM
Archangel,

Straws. Yes. How erudite. You know? I don't think I like your tone. If I thought you were at all INTERESTED in my viewpoint rather than dedicated to simply demolishing anything I have to say on the topic then a continued discussion on the subject would probably be edifying to both of us (your point about foundation is a good one and I have an interesting argument about one's opponent BEING one's foundation in a grappling situation). But nevertheless you prefer to get snide and snippy rather than simply engage in the intellectual chit chat of two friendly gentlemen.

Have a nice day.

"Bruce Leroy. That's who!"

toddbringewatt
11-06-2001, 03:49 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Merryprankster:
Wong, Bruce Leroy:

Please explain, from the position shown in the picture on this thread, what elbow strike David Levicki should have used to nullify the takedown.

-I want to know where he should have struck.

THE SPINE.

-I want to know where his power generation would
have come from. Remember-Rickson is IN, his
head is in David's chest, preventing waist
torque of any sort w/regards to Rickson's upper
body, and Levicki's weight is going BACKWARDS.

TWO FULCRUM POINTS: THE ONE CREATED BETWEEN GRACIE'S POINT OF CONTACT (THE UPPER ABDOMEN REALLY, NOT THE CHEST AS YOU SUGGEST) AND THE ONE THAT EXISTS NATURALLY IN THE SHOULDER, I.E. GRACIE'S OPPONENT'S SHOULDER. THE STRIKE WOULD BE A DOWNWARD ELBOW USING THESE TWO FULCRUMS AS POWER GENERATION POINTS AND LATS, PECS, ABDOMINALS AND BICEPS AS CONTRACTOR ENGINES. RESULT? WHAMMO!! OUCH!!!

-I want to know how this slows down or prevents
the takedown.

PAIN IN ATTACKER EQUALS SHARP REDUCTION OF EFFORT IN ATTACKER EQUALS INEFFECTIVE TAKEDOWN. ORGANISMS UNIVERSALLY SHRINK FROM PAIN. ESPECIALLY EXCRUCIATING PAIN LIKE THAT SUFFERED FROM A SHARP BLOW TO THE SPINE.

-I want to know what comes next in case it
doesn't work right the first time. Remember,
once David has committed himself to the elbow,
David has maybe one whole second before Rickson
finishes the takedown and is in his world.

IF IT DOESN'T WORK RIGHT, THAT IS IF THE BLOW MISSES THE SPINE, IT WILL STILL MOST LIKELY CONTACT THE MUSCLE AND NERVE CENTERS NEXT TO THE SPINE AND CREATE A SEVERELY SIMILAR EFFECT. IF IT DOESN'T WORK BECAUSE THE WING CHUN GUY CAN'T PERFORM A DOWNWARD ELBOW QUICKLY AND EFFICIENTLY HE SHOULDN'T BE IN THE RING WITH A GRACIE.

Don't tell me what he should have done to prevent Rickson from getting there in the first place. It's too late for that. Tell me how he deals with it once it happens.[/quote]

SEE ABOVE.

"Bruce Leroy. That's who!"

JWTAYLOR
11-06-2001, 04:52 PM
I would have rather ignored the argument altogether, but I had to speak up right about here:<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> PAIN IN ATTACKER EQUALS SHARP REDUCTION OF EFFORT IN ATTACKER EQUALS INEFFECTIVE TAKEDOWN. [/quote]

The the specific action you have mentioned would not likely cause a whole lot of pain, and even if it did, is completely unlikely to cause enough pain to stop a commited fighter performing a takedown. Unless you actually break the spine itself, which I say is totall bs from there, even if you break a rib or two, there is no way that person would do anything other than drive you to the ground. God knows I've had guys break my ribs on more than one occasion during sparring. It did not diminish my resolve to make them pay for it.

As far as the last part, I think the point is that you are committed to an attack, so what happens when your attack lands and you are still going down, now without that arm for support or a break fall? What happens when your blow doesn't end the game? You hit HARD and he mounts you fast. Ok on the mat, but it's over right there on the street.

JWT

If you pr!ck us, do we not bleed? If you poison us, do we not die? And if you wrong us, shall we not revenge? If we are like you in the rest, we will resemble you in that the villany you teach me, I will execute, and it shall go hard but I will better the instruction. MOV

Merryprankster
11-06-2001, 06:05 PM
Bruce,

Where on the spine? On the top? Near the bottom? There's a big difference in physiology between the two areas. It's like saying kick the leg... where? The knee? The thigh? The calf. Be more specific. I want to know, ideally, exactly, where it should have landed.

You have the position that Rickson is in completely wrong. Examine the picture more closely. Rickson's forehead is posted on David's STERNUM, not his upper abdomen as you suggest. His hands are behind David's thighs. This is the classic wrestlers "Double leg pick-up," or the Judo style double leg takedown. Rickson is NOT trying to lift Levicki. If Rickson were attempting to lift Levicki from THAT PARTICULAR position, then the elbow you describe has a chance to be effective because Levicki could generate some power. However, this is not what is going on. If he were lifting, his hips would be IN, close to the body, creating a different set of problems for Levicki.

What Rickson is doing is PUSHING on the sternum with his forehead and pulling IN with his hands. By driving forward with the head, he bends Levicki's upper body backwards. The only way for Levicki to stay upright is to backpedal in an effort to keep his hips away so he is not overbalanced backwards. However, Rickson's hands are on Levicki's thighs and pulling in. This prevents the backpedaling. This push-pull places David's weight on his heels, and he falls over. The bearhug, common in Greco-Roman wrestling, works on exactly the same principle, except the hands are locked around the waist.

If Rickson had his head in David's abdomen as you suggest, David could alleviate a good deal of the backwards pressure simply by curling over top of Rickson. As it is, Rickson's head is in his sternum and, most importantly, his BACK IS STRAIGHT. He is bent at the hips, but his back is like a straight bar of steel in Levicki's chest. There is no way for Levicki to crunch on top of Rickson because it would be like trying to curl your upper body lengthwise through a 2X4 braced against the ground. If Rickson's back were rounded, David might curl over him, but Rickson's posture is perfect and prevents this.

That said, Rickson's posture in this takedown NEGATES the use of the torso for power generation. Levicki cannot powerfully contract downwards with his abdomen for the aforementioned reasons.

David's weight is on his heels.
David cannot contract his abdomen powerfully downwards because of Rickson's position.

Power comes from the torso and legs, right? David has no legs and no torso with which to drive the elbow in a smashing downwards blow. This means that the power generation will have to come solely from the lats, pecs and shoulder, with most of the effort from the lats and shoulder. This is similar to what boxers refer to as an "arm punch." There's not really much on it.

I am forced to draw one of two conclusions based on the evidence above:

1. The elbow is ineffective because it cannot be delivered with crushing force.

2. Given that it cannot be delivered with crushing force, it can only be effective if delivered in some precisely right spot that causes incapacitation and not merely pain.

Again:

1. Show me the power generation on this elbow since the torso and legs are out of the equation.

2. Tell me EXACTLY where he should have struck.

3. What does he do if the elbow strike fails, given that Rickson is less than a second away from putting Levicki on his butt?

I agree completely with JWT. Pain, even excruciating pain, does not deter me unless my joints are incapacitated in some fashion. Pain simply raises my intensity level.

Archangel
11-06-2001, 06:42 PM
If you can't take a little ball busting between guys, then you really don't belong here. Being too polite and too sensitive will make this place and this world a VERY boring place. Honestly you sound like a little boy on the playground who got his feelings hurt. If you don't want to talk to me because I was mean to you, fine. Take your ball and go play with the nice kids.

Ralek
11-06-2001, 07:16 PM
Wushu Chik. I don't fight girls.

Brazilian jiujitsu is superior.

Piccolo Junior
11-06-2001, 07:20 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ralek:
Wushu Chik. I don't fight girls.

Brazilian jiujitsu is superior.[/quote]

Unless they weigh 700 lbs.

"It is necessary to drink alcohol and pursue other fun human activities. The art of someone who is too serious has no flavour."- Choki Motobu

gano_b
11-06-2001, 07:31 PM
The above explanation is very good, however, the most important reason for the lack of a spinal attack has been left out. It's illegal. See, chiropractic work on the C-2 C-3 would not be part of the UFC/Pride/Val Tudo/place any "no hold's barred" competition here. Often times the Kung Fu practitioner gets slammed on for complaining about the rules. They are told that if there were no rules, the Grappler could use the same techniques. The grappler, however, is not trained specifically to do these things. A very large percentage of the typical ... oh let's say Hsing-I practitioners studies involve techniques that would be considered "illegal strikes" in those type of SPORTS competitions. Given the parameters of the rules, I would have to say that BJJ is the best for NHB competitions, but I don't buy the fact that it is the best in the field. I can't see a bunch of soldiers on the battlefield rolling around using reverse triangle chokes to put away the enemy. That's just my opinion, although I am open minded.

"There is no try...do, or do not."

Watchman
11-06-2001, 07:37 PM
gano_b,

In the particular match in question, spine shots were perfectly legal.

>>>They are told that if there were no rules, the Grappler could use the same techniques. The grappler, however, is not trained specifically to do these things.<<<

In fact, Rickson slams his knee into Dave's spine after he takes him down.

Merryprankster
11-06-2001, 07:39 PM
That's not really my point.

My point is "if the elbow is your answer to this particular takedown attempt, then please explain how it's going to work."

I agree with you 100% about BJJ's limitations. On the battlefield though, military training, not martial arts, are your best defense.

Your point about no "vital point," attack strikes is noted, but there is a giant circular argument on that that I don't wish to get into.

Lastly, there are many competitions, especially in Brazil, where full Vale Tudo rules are used: No biting, No fishhooking, No eye-gouges. All other techniques are legal. This is not THAT limiting to a Kung-Fu fighter's repetoire and would an appropriate venue for a display of Kung Fu martial skill, if rules are TRULY the biggest disadvantage.

gano_b
11-06-2001, 08:07 PM
We both know that a strike to a joint is not an acceptable practice in these tourney's. I don't believe for a second that Big John is going to stand for diliberate crushing blows to the base of the skull or upper vertebre. There are many defenses from being taken down. Unfortunately, these tourney's limit that skill to speed. The clinch is easily defended when you can stick a finger in someone's eye. Thus the fight doesn't go to the ground as easy. Also a hand full of groin might work nicely. I agree, both the Grapplers and the Strikers could then take advantage of the old thumb in the eye technique, but if you aren't going to go to the ground, or make that much more unlikely, wouldn't the advantage go to the striker? So I do think that no fish hooking, no eye gouging is a tremendous advantage to the grappler. Once again, just my take. I have some hardcore BJJ buddies, and I get razzed all the time. That's fine by me, but none of them really want to spar NHB. We alway's play by rules. Not that I would try to stick my fingers through a buddies eye socket... well, only if they really deserved it, LOL. Good talking with you again.

"There is no try...do, or do not."

apoweyn
11-06-2001, 08:13 PM
i agree that sticking your fingers in my eyes would probably deter me from doing a great many things. but that's a very small moving target. definitely not a "gimme."

as for the handful of groin (yikes), i imagine that was part of rickson's plan in coming in the way he did. i don't know grappling, but it occurs to me that he's got his hands underneath levicki's. so levicki can't get to the groin from the side. and he can't go down the middle, in between rickson's arms, because his head and torso are in the way.

and even if he could do that under static conditions, this wouldn't be a static condition.

i'm sure that there are counter measures. but i'm also sure that it's not quite as simple as we're tempted to believe.


stuart b.

Archangel
11-06-2001, 08:37 PM
Back then it was perfectly acceptable to strike the spine or the joint, nobody had a problem with it at all. The problem was we never got to see it, In all the NHB fights i've seen over the past 8 years I have never seen a takedown stopped that way.

About the eye gouging, Vitor Belfort fought John Hess in a NHB fight in Hawaii where eye gouges were legal. John didn't get a chance to use it before he was taken down and pummelled. Also if knifefighter is still around there was a NHB fight between MMA fighter John Marsh and a Kung Fu San Soo instructor a few months ago. Again anything was legal, and yet again the traditionalist was taken down and submitted before he could get to the eyes. The video is on the net and if someone has the link, you can watch for yourself.

Attacking the eyes during the shoot is not nearly as easy as it sounds.

JWTAYLOR
11-06-2001, 08:48 PM
Again, going for the spine is quite possible, AFTER you have defended/stopped the take down. Hell, an elbow shot after a sprawl is quite easy to do and is not a bad technique at all, imho. But that's AFTER the sprawl.

JWT

If you pr!ck us, do we not bleed? If you poison us, do we not die? And if you wrong us, shall we not revenge? If we are like you in the rest, we will resemble you in that the villany you teach me, I will execute, and it shall go hard but I will better the instruction. MOV

Merryprankster
11-06-2001, 09:46 PM
Exactly JWT. That's precisely where I am headed with this. I was just trying to suss it out :)

gano_b, this is where most "traditionalists" if that word actually means anything, and I flat-out disagree.

I believe that eye-pokes and eye-gouges, fish-hooks and biting, added as techniques, would actually FAVOR the grappler even more, not put him at a disadvantage.

It's hard enough to punch somebody's head, let alone poke their eyes out from a distance. I need to control your head movement, along with a number of other factors, or your eye is a VERY low percentage target. Have a friend put on a set of industrial type hard-plastic safety goggles, and try to nail him in the eyes with decent force repeatedly while you are standup sparring. It's really not easy. Better yet, have them put on a pair of swimming goggles. That's WAY more realistic in terms of target areas.

I certainly can't gouge them, in the true meaning of the word, without controling your head movement.

To my mind, high percentage eye attacks therefore depend on controlling the opponents head.

To control your head movement, I have to control your body. To control your body, I have to enter the grappling range of combat. Why would a non-grappling specialist DO this as part of their fight strategy? Other than the obvious takedown risk, a grappler is extremely adept, as part of their training, at covering their face up from attack because an attacking grappler attempts to minimize distance between himself and the target. The face is a common "push point," fore-arms, palms, elbows and what not are frequently pushed in our faces to create escape space. We learn to bury our faces early, often and well.

If you attempt to eye-gouge or strike from the bottom while in any type of mount, you will more than likely be submitted, or beat senseless due to the fact that the person on TOP is dictating your body movements, and the distance of the fight, not the other way round.

If you are on bottom, in the guard position, then head/body control is surely mandatory to high-percentage eye-gouging and poking because, if you do NOT control well, then you are opening yourself up for either strikes, your opponents escape from guard to a more serious position or submissions... while your hands are busy trying to find my face, I'm busy pounding on yours, and trying to get by your legs, if you are neglecting to control my body movements

Fish-hooking and biting MUST be done in grappling range. No two ways about that.

How do weapons which are most effective within grappling range improve the scenario for a non-grappler?

Lastly, joint attacks were very much allowed in the first few UFCs, and are still legal today in many fights in Brazil.

gano_b
11-06-2001, 10:01 PM
It seem's to me that alot of these kung-fu pro's that the grapplers contend that they have beaten...and rightfully so, fall into the hands of a grappler. They play their game. Everyone play's their game. If more people trained not to go to the ground instead of figuring out how to fight on the ground it would resolve alot of issues. BJJ is superior on the ground...period. You can't expect to win a fight on the ground with Kung-Fu against BJJ. That isn't the same game. What the grapplers do is take strikes out of the equation on the ground. Sure you can throw some love taps, but in the guard you are hoping for a choke or a bar of some kind.

TO the gentleman about Vitor. Belfort is known for his striking power. He is a tremendous talent with BJJ, but he wins 9 out of 10 fights with his fists. He is faster than most... 'cept we won't talk about Couture.

I also have seen the video of the Kung Fu guy getting beat by the big husky grappler. I especially liked the guillotine choke and lifting the poor little "kung fu" guy. I can honestly say that I saw absolutely zero kung fu displayed in that match aside from a wushu love kick. This gentleman was never rooted well, had no power, and I don't exactly know what style he was associated with, but I felt like I was watching a fight between a big slow bully and a kid about half his size. The choke at the end was cool though.

I didn't say I was going to set back and poke someone in the eye, I said that durring the "clinch", its a much easeir target.

I really don't have anything against the grappling, in fact, I think its pretty cool. Just talking from my side of the story.

"There is no try...do, or do not."

Merryprankster
11-06-2001, 11:31 PM
The eye is an easier target, yes and no...

It's closer, so it's easier. On the other hand, I can assure you that the grappler isn't just holding on for fun :) You're being pushed and pulled about.

What you see is NOT folks "playing into the grappler's hands" What you are seeing is people who don't know how to defend the takedown and consequently look a bit frantic "trying to grapple," so I think we agree pretty much there. After all, bad preparation=playing into the opponents hands :)

But watch any Mo Smith fight, and you'll see he defends takedowns and uses the guard to get back up. He doesn't play the grappling game...he uses the grappling counters (which make the most sense) to counter grapple, and then return to HIS range of combat.

Striking will never lose its place in the arsenal. Neither will grappling. Flip sides of the same goal.

gano_b
11-07-2001, 12:06 AM
One of the problems I have with MMA is the Jack of all Trades, Master of None syndrome. It's just such a double edged sword. I really believe that many people think that the lack of good kung fu in the MMA tournaments is because there is no good kung fu. They say that the kung fu guys are scared to be beat. I don't buy that. First of all, the age brackets are so different. Let's face it, a yearling in BJJ is going to kill his kungfu yearling peers. In this sense I believe that BJJ is superior. However, I think by the time one gets a true "mastery" of their kung fu style, the desire to display the skill has faulterd. Fighting is a young man's game. I am a fairly large guy, x football type. Defending myself has never been an issue. I study kung fu for so many reasons more than self defense or fighting. This is the hardest thing to explain to a BJJ participant. They have a single purpose to their training. I don't have a problem with that, but, life styles change, as does the testostorine levels. Eventually, when I am old and gray, I can still inspire so many positives from my training. This may be considered a cop out by alot of people, but the honest to God's truth is, I really don't care.

For the most part, the grappling posters on this board are arrogant and over confident. I won't lop them all into that group because that would be unfair. It is unfair to the same tune that the fact that they consider all of the kung fu guys on the board to be glorified dancers is wrong. You have a very good point when you say that there is striking and it feeds grappling, and just the opposite, kind of like the yin and the yan. There is some kind of balance in the universe after all LOL. My entire point is this: Master your art. If you truly engulf your life in your style, you will win. Imitating everyone elses only leads to mediocre skills in multiple styles. A strong style beats a mediocre style regardless of what it is. Once again, purely my opinion, and it's a pleasure to carry on a civilized conversation about a hot topic.

"There is no try...do, or do not."

joedoe
11-07-2001, 12:07 AM
I agree with JWT - defend against the takedown before you launch a counter, because unless you know what you are doing on the ground, you don't want to be there.

cxxx[]:::::::::::>
You're fu(king up my chi

Archangel
11-07-2001, 05:03 AM
Actually i think you're thinking of a different fight. I recall the one you are refering to actually, it was a poor display on both parts. The big guy did not look like a grappler at all; his takedowns were extremely sloppy and lacked even basic technique. I'd say he had maybe 6 months training as a grappler at most.

The fight I was refering to was between pro MMA fighter John Marsh and a curly haired San Soo instructor. The fight was reminicent of the early UFC's where it was a simple takedown by the grappler and then into the submission. Again eye gouges played absolutely no part in this fight yet they were legal.

toddbringewatt
11-07-2001, 05:08 AM
Archangel,

"If you can't take a little ball busting between guys, then you really don't belong here."

That's not what you were up to and you know it. Be a man and admit it. Cowards never own up to anything. They just rattle off absurd justifications like this one.

"Being too polite and too sensitive will make this place and this world a VERY boring place."

Another nice justification.

"Honestly you sound like a little boy on the playground who got his feelings hurt."

You sound like a little boy on the playground who never grew up past the playground. As far as feelings are concerned? Who was it that hurt YOUR feelings so much that you act this way?

"If you don't want to talk to me because I was mean to you, fine."

Not because you were mean to me. Because you're just plain mean. What's the point in talking to you? You're not at all interested in communicating, just nullifying.

"Take your ball and go play with the nice kids."

This is the kind of exceedingly original, sophisticated, high-brow enlightenment I'm talking about. Thank you for proving my point.

Enjoy yourself

"Bruce Leroy. That's who!"

toddbringewatt
11-07-2001, 05:11 AM
Merryprankster,

The eleventh vertebrae.

As to the rest of it? Too many points of disagreement to make it worth our while.

Thanks for being specific and not getting personal with all this by the way. You're a real gentleman.

:)

"Bruce Leroy. That's who!"

Merryprankster
11-07-2001, 05:14 AM
gano_b,

Thanks. I appreciate that. I think though, that you will actually find that most of the grapplers here are fairly respectful of other styles. There are some that aren't, but most are.

I try not to bash styles, I don't think it gets us anywhere. I do try to raise objections when things get to the "why doesn't he just...."

Or "If he were REALLY any good, he would have..."

Or (my pet peeve) "(insert style here) is deeper than (insert other style here)"

I have to respectfully disagree with your jack of all trades and master of none statement. I don't believe that being a master in a particular range of combat makes you a complete fighter. Of course, if a person studies their art with things other than fights in mind then this becomes far less of an issue, yes?

Noticed you don't have too many posts... welcome aboard!

Merryprankster
11-07-2001, 05:31 AM
Bruce,

Thanks. It speaks well of you.

I suggest the following, not to be belligerent, but just so you can see what I am talking about:

Find a grappler, and have him put you in the same position I described in my post. Failing that, find a friend, and have them place their forehead in your sternum, and hands behind your legs on the thigh, just above the knees, have him drive forward with his head and pull in and up to his body with his hands, while keeping his back straight as per Rickson in the photo. After he's gotten used to doing it a few times start the whole elbowing thing.

I personally believe you will find you have to free your base before the elbow is effective in preventing the takedown. As I mentioned, it's just a way to try and experience what I'm talking about.

joedoe
11-07-2001, 05:45 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> I don't believe that being a master in a particular range of combat makes you a complete fighter [/quote]

True, but a true master would know how to keep the engagement in the range they are good at :)

cxxx[]:::::::::::>
You're fu(king up my chi

wushu chik
11-07-2001, 05:48 AM
The only reason you don't fight girls is because you are a spineless Piece of !!

I am ALWAYS Kung Fu Fighting.....what about you?

toddbringewatt
11-07-2001, 06:06 AM
Merryprankster,

Thanks. Well taken. A fine suggestion. I'll let you know how it goes if I can duplicate it.

Take it easy. :)

"Bruce Leroy. That's who!"

Ralek
11-07-2001, 03:35 PM
Wushu Chik. The reason i don't fight girls is becuase I don't want to hurt a girl. Here's an analogy. Would you fight a little 5 year old who was serious about challenging you? You woudln't fight them becuase you don't want to hurt 5 year olds. I don't fight girls.

I'm not saying that all girls are no good at fighting. In fact there have been some female blue belts in brazilian jiujitsu who have tapped out guys before. But for the most part girls cannot fight worth beans.

Brazilian jiujitsu is superior.

apoweyn
11-07-2001, 05:05 PM
ABandit,

I don't know about that. To my mind, a true master would be someone that could deal with whatever life, and an opponent, could send their way.

To my mind, it's sort of analogous to a guy labeling himself king of his household, but then refusing to leave the house. within those walls, he rules. but should anything from outside come in, or should he have to leave the house, all of a sudden he feels out of control.

if your house is the kicking range, for example, it's good to feel comfortable there. it's good to have strong kicks. (i still regard kicking as my 'house' for better or worse.) but you can't control the whole scenario. ranges change. and once you're out of yours, you don't want to feel out of control.

one thing i've noticed about myself (and please don't take this as a blanket statement about kickers in general) is that my reliance on kicks was, for a long time, a bit desperate. i would keep the other guy at bay with my legs. seems like a reasonable tactic, but it's not really a solution to the problem. it's just a way for me to avoid closing and mixing it up with the guy. i could almost hear myself thinking "stay away from me!"

so while i regarded myself as being good at the kicking range, i don't feel like that afforded me a higher degree of control than i feel now, being relatively comfortable at more ranges.

what do you think?


stuart b.

Jaguar Wong
11-07-2001, 06:19 PM
Good Lord Ap Owyen,
I didn't know I had a clone running around the East Coast. Kicking is still "My House", but like you said, I had to develop, or at least expose myself to the other ranges so that I could control the situation better. I still find that I use the other ranges to maneuver the opponent back into "My House", which is what I beleive all martial artists should be doing, whether they have to cross train to accomplish this or not. :)

If you're very good at one particular aspect of fighting, your best bet would be to also learn how to bring the fight to that aspect, no matter what the opponent tries to do (like learning enough anti grappling stuff to open up the punching range). I also like the fact that if you're knowledgable enough to use other aspects, then even if you face someone that's better at your best aspect of fighting, you can still take him out of it, and bring him into something you're better than them at. Even if it's not your best range, at least the other guy doesn't know what's going on :)

My best example was when I was fighting a particularly good kicker (well, he had long legs, but you know... :)). I was jamming all of his kicks, and blasting him with side kicks, so finally he just moved in tight and unloaded the hooks into my head. I was stunned and didn't know what to do. So I started developing not only punches, but punching range, and trapping range techniques including elbows, knees, trips, throws, and even just rooting and shoving them back out to a more comfortable range. Sparring is a learning experience after all :)

Jaguar Wong

"If you learn to balance a tack hammer on your head
then you learn to head up a balanced attack!"
- The Sphinx

apoweyn
11-07-2001, 07:17 PM
hey jaguar,

well, if there's a clone of me running around on (or near) the west coast, i'd have guessed that it would have been you, my friend.

same taste in flicks, same tactics in sparring. you know what they say about great minds, right? well, apparently, it holds true for our minds too.

:)

Merryprankster
11-07-2001, 07:21 PM
Ap, Jaguar,

As always, good posts :)

I agree 100% with the assertion that a master of a style cannot always dictate the range.

Of course, does it come as a shock that we agree? :)

Jaguar Wong
11-07-2001, 07:29 PM
LOL. Yeah, I never thought someone would actually watch and enjoy the same cheesy movies, much less have the exact same fighting perspective. We come from different styles, but I guess that's all moot when you look at fighting as a whole. :)

Merryprankster, yes it is shocking that we agree. After all, I study a Traditional Chinese Kung Fu style, and I actually use forms as part of my training :eek:

:), actually yes, we do seem to have the same outlook on training. Again, we do come from different styles/backgrounds, but I guess common sense creeps in no matter what style you're practicing, as long as you keep an open mind. (insert thumbs up graphic here) oh wait.....


http://boards.infopop.net/infopop/icons1/icon14.gif BOO YAA!!

Jaguar Wong

"If you learn to balance a tack hammer on your head
then you learn to head up a balanced attack!"
- The Sphinx

Merryprankster
11-07-2001, 07:31 PM
What you call forms, I call shadow wrestling. What's the difference anyway? :)

Or am I supposed to say something about how forms suck and Kung Fu can't fight it's way out of a pre-school?

Archangel
11-07-2001, 07:50 PM
"That's not what you were up to and you know it. Be a man and admit it. Cowards never own up to anything. They just rattle off absurd justifications like this one."

Oh I see, your assumption MUST BE the truth and I'm a coward for not admitting that you were right. LOL!!! I like your logic there Bruce. Look at the title of my first reply, you honestly think that I wasn't trying to bust your balls when i wrote that.

"You sound like a little boy on the playground who never grew up past the playground. As far as feelings are concerned? Who was it that hurt YOUR feelings so much that you act this way?"

you're right, when I was younger my dog ran away and I never fully recovered from that. That same year, I found my favourite goldfish belly up in the toilet, my dad forgot to flush the **** thing down. In the background, the song "Everybody was Kung Fu fighting" was playing on the radio; Something inside of me snapped. Now I just go onto kung fu message boards and harass honest and intelligent posters like you until they cry. Later on tonight i'm going to roll around in cheez**** and yell "Kung Fu Sucks" to my David Caradine poster.

"Not because you were mean to me. Because you're just plain mean. What's the point in talking to you? You're not at all interested in communicating, just nullifying."

Pffffffffft, whatever Bruce; you sound like a chick.

Who's got the glow now!!!!!

[This message was edited by Archangel on 11-08-01 at 10:00 AM.]

apoweyn
11-07-2001, 08:00 PM
Merryprankster and Jaguar,

No surprises here. cheers. :)


stuart

Ryu
11-07-2001, 08:28 PM
Arch and Bruce, agree to disagree huh?
The "you sound like a girl" argument isn't really winning the battle either. But continue if you guys like doing it. :)

Bruce, I would recommend doing what MerryPrankster said. But I would do it with a real grappler before doing it with just a friend. :) If you can get a friendly wrestler to help you out, you'll probably have the best experience. And when I say wrestler I mean someone on a team, or someone with some decent collegiate experience.

Ryu

http://home.vobis.net/user/roy/anime/images/streetfighter15.jpg


"One who takes pride in shallow knowledge or understanding is like a monkey who delights in adorning itself with garbage."

Merryprankster
11-07-2001, 08:32 PM
In fact Bruce, if you can find a real wrestler, I'd try to work him into your training schedule, if you can.

Archangel
11-07-2001, 08:53 PM
It's over for me, i've said what I've had to say. His whining and his hurt little boy speal was just getting to me. God knows we've had our disagreements over at Mousels back when it busier over there and you've always reacted well to my sometimes sharp wit. Of course I had to change my screen name since then.

Ryu
11-07-2001, 09:00 PM
I'm not saying you're doing anything bad. You do have a sharp wit. Disagreements force people to look for solutions to problems. They're a good thing. ;)

You were at Mousel's huh? Hmmm let me see if I can guess your screen name... (by the way, do you still post there?)


Ryu

http://home.vobis.net/user/roy/anime/images/streetfighter15.jpg


"One who takes pride in shallow knowledge or understanding is like a monkey who delights in adorning itself with garbage."

gano_b
11-07-2001, 10:35 PM
Thanks for the nice welcome. I see your dialogue with Bruce Leroy (whom I think is a great poster...absolutely funny guy that makes sense). Great advice your giving about training with a grappler. If you train with someone that might shoot your legs, you might learn how to defend that. If ground fighting isn't your style, then you better learn how to stay off the ground. Most people forget their training and freak out when someone grabs them off their feet. Spending days training against someone who fights just like you do is not going to prepare you for anything except sparring in class.

"There is no try...do, or do not."

wushu chik
11-08-2001, 12:26 AM
You have proved over and over that you are a coward. Your big mouth has challenged people, and NEVER ONCE taken anyone up on their offer to fight. So, being the nice person I am (shut up guys) I decided to give you an out, FIGHTING ME. But, once again, you pu$ out like a coward. I didn't expect anything more OR less...I knew what I would get, and you proved it to EVERYONE on here (not that they didn't already know!!). And here you go, being the spineless little coward you are, YOU WIN~ I am like a 5 year old little girl and YOU WOULD BEAT ME UP!! I am so scared of fighting a "big mean man" that "knows" BJJ that can beat ANYONE. You know what....GIVE ME THE BIGGEST ******* BREAK ON EARTH. It's not my fault some female beat you as a young child, and that's why you are AFRAID OF WOMEN!! Get over it...you are worthless...NO MORE SAID!

I am ALWAYS Kung Fu Fighting.....what about you?

Silumkid
11-08-2001, 12:34 AM
Go Wushu, it's your birthday! Go Wushu.... :D

We are trained in wushu; we must protect the Temple!

Ryu
11-08-2001, 02:33 AM
urusai...

http://home.vobis.net/user/roy/anime/images/streetfighter15.jpg


"One who takes pride in shallow knowledge or understanding is like a monkey who delights in adorning itself with garbage."

Fish of Fury
11-08-2001, 03:05 AM
"If you can get a friendly wrestler to help you out, you'll probably have the best experience"

c'mon Ryu, we all know by now there's no such thing as a friendly wrestler!
i hear they eat their children... :( :eek:

:)

__________________________________________________ _________________________ "I'm just trying to lull you into a genuine sense of security!"

toddbringewatt
11-08-2001, 07:37 PM
Ryu and Merryprankster,

Yes. Good advice. A close friend of mine and business partner is a state champion wrestler. I'll see if I can illicit his help on this.

gano_b,

Thanks for the kudos, brother! Affinity in kind! I agree with your comments about grappling and training in general. Well put.

Hey, with whom do you study Hsing-I? I'm thinking about studying out here with a student of Kenny Gong. What advances have you made in 8 months? How do you like it?

P.S. I LOVE your Yoda quote!!!

Archangel,

I don't have to assume what I know. Guess I hit a nerve. Sorry to hear about your goldfish. :D

"Bruce Leroy. That's who!"

[This message was edited by Bruce Leroy on 11-09-01 at 09:58 AM.]

gano_b
11-08-2001, 08:27 PM
Bruce Leroy -

Kudos well deserved on your part. You alway's seem to lighten the mood and make sense. Also diggin the Last Dragon namesake. SHO NUFF!

I study with Shrfu Dan Albriton in Kansas City. We are grandchildren of master Hong Yi Xiang. I absolutely love it!

I am such a neophyte that my explanation of where I am in my training is even limited. We have gone through most of the fundementals, and are seeing many of the Ba Gua integrations at this point (even started circle walking). Pi Chaun is the element I am working with now, and it is the basic framework on which many things are built. I can't seem to get enough of Hsing-I. I hope you take any chance that you get to study the art, it is quite powerful. It's not as pretty as some, but it is a no nonsense style. Good Luck!

Nice to officially "meet" you! Thanks for the kind words to a newbie! She she ni!

"There is no try...do, or do not."

toddbringewatt
11-08-2001, 08:48 PM
gano_b,

Hey, thanks a lot! That's so cool of you.

So, wow. I looked up Hong Yi Xiang on the internet. You're a celebrity. Must be a real honor to study under that lineage.

Your training sounds very cool and you've inspired me to take my consideration of Xingyi even more seriously. Thanks. Yeah, it definitely seems like a very powerful and very straighforward approach to fighting. I like that.

Thanks for your reply and it's nice to "meet" you too! You're welcome and (you're welcome in Chinese, however one says that). :)

Cheers, gano!

"Bruce Leroy. That's who!"

Ralek
11-09-2001, 01:44 AM
Wushu Chik. I don't fight girls.

Brazilian jiujitsu is superior.