How To Get To Heaven

[wiz cool c]

beautiful Hindu song

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OvaKJDoKjnw&list=FLGC4xThGxe-kEx1JXUs9TcA

[hskwarrior]

some of these ****heads will say that's bull**** because there is no heaven

[wiz cool c]

i wrote a post how to get to heaven ,one person replied, right above this post is a post about burger king[how to get to hell] so many replies. more people want to go to hell then heaven these days ,interesting

[sanjuro_ronin]

If you believe in the possibility of "multiple universes" ( and some scientists do), then there is a possibility for "heaven" and "hell" to exist.

We must understand that OUR perception of what "heaven" may be and those of the ancients is clouded by our cultural bias and how it can be described is limited by our "language of the times".

[David Jamieson]

It depends entirely on what you believe. Some believe Heaven and hell exist right here on earth. Some days, I am inclined to agree with that.

I remain agnostic about such constructs personally.

[Kellen Bassette]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kYvOsnhV6ZY

[Jimbo]

Based on personal experiences, I've come to the conclusion that life (existence) is all about transition, and for me that means different levels of existence. Birth, death, etc., are merely transitions. I no longer follow any religion, so I don't use the words 'heaven', 'hell', 'afterlife', etc., because I feel it's an ongoing process, and this lifetime on earth is not the be-all, end-all.

Somebody else may feel otherwise, and that's fine with me.

[GoldenBrain]

Okay, here's how it all started. In the beginning there was nothing, then Chuck Norris came along and roundhouse kicked that nothing in the jaw and said, GET A JOB!


Seriously, here's what I believe if anybody is interested.

In the beginning there was nothing, then from that nothing came a vibration (sound) or as the bible puts it, the voice of God. Then from that voice/vibration came light which is a wave form that turns into a particle when it slows down. All matter is basically light frozen at specific vibrational rates that has evolved over the billions of years into what we are and see around us. Since everything in existence comes from God, including hell/evil, then all things bad and good are for the divine purpose.

Scientists are currently using particle colliders to prove up this theory of sound/light/matter spontaneously popping into existence from a vacuum. They are also well along the path to describing how all matter exists in a duality. Google double slit experiment. In other words all matter exists in two dimensions. Those are space/time and time/space. Space/time is where space is 3 dimensional and time is linear, and time/space is where time is 3 dimensional and space is linear. Think of an hour glass where one side is where we are, space/time and the other side is time/space. Some believe that we exist in both places simultaneously, which is to say that our spirit exists in time/space and our physical bodies exist in space/time and the link is through our pineal gland. Genesis 32:30, and Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.

The pineal gland is shaped like a pine cone. Google pine cone at the Vatican and you'll see one of their largest statues which is a pine cone with two peacocks on either side. The peacocks represent immortality. The pineal gland is basically an eyeball in the center of our brain. You might as well call it our third eye. The inside of it is made up of rods and cones and contains eyeball fluid. When we close our eyes it is activated and releases various chemicals such as melatonin to help us sleep. Some believe this third eye doesn't view space/time but rather time/space. Ever wonder why when you dream you feel as though time and space have no relevance? Maybe you are not here in space/time but are instead working out your thoughts in time/space. Who knows, maybe all of what I just said is hooey.

The way to heaven is to simply die, which severs the connection between time/space and space/time leaving us in our spirit form in time/space, or heaven. We may then either pop into the next available meat sack to gain more experiences or if we are enlightened enough maybe evolve beyond this form.

[David Jamieson]

Okay, here's how it all started. In the beginning there was nothing, then Chuck Norris came along and roundhouse kicked that nothing in the jaw and said, GET A JOB!


Seriously, here's what I believe if anybody is interested.

In the beginning there was nothing, then from that nothing came a vibration (sound) or as the bible puts it, the voice of God. Then from that voice/vibration came light which is a wave form that turns into a particle when it slows down. All matter is basically light frozen at specific vibrational rates that has evolved over the billions of years into what we are and see around us. Since everything in existence comes from God, including hell/evil, then all things bad and good are for the divine purpose.

Scientists are currently using particle colliders to prove up this theory of sound/light/matter spontaneously popping into existence from a vacuum. They are also well along the path to describing how all matter exists in a duality. Google double slit experiment. In other words all matter exists in two dimensions. Those are space/time and time/space. Space/time is where space is 3 dimensional and time is linear, and time/space is where time is 3 dimensional and space is linear. Think of an hour glass where one side is where we are, space/time and the other side is time/space. Some believe that we exist in both places simultaneously, which is to say that our spirit exists in time/space and our physical bodies exist in space/time and the link is through our pineal gland. Genesis 32:30, and Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.

The pineal gland is shaped like a pine cone. Google pine cone at the Vatican and you'll see one of their largest statues which is a pine cone with two peacocks on either side. The peacocks represent immortality. The pineal gland is basically an eyeball in the center of our brain. You might as well call it our third eye. The inside of it is made up of rods and cones and contains eyeball fluid. When we close our eyes it is activated and releases various chemicals such as melatonin to help us sleep. Some believe this third eye doesn't view space/time but rather time/space. Ever wonder why when you dream you feel as though time and space have no relevance? Maybe you are not here in space/time but are instead working out your thoughts in time/space. Who knows, maybe all of what I just said is hooey.

The way to heaven is to simply die, which severs the connection between time/space and space/time leaving us in our spirit form in time/space, or heaven. We may then either pop into the next available meat sack to gain more experiences or if we are enlightened enough maybe evolve beyond this form.

some things you say I'm ok with, fine, you can believe what you like. But the pineal gland pine cone thing? Not so much. that's some weird ass tomfoolery dreamed up and passed around by wanna be hermetics in my opinion.

Here's a pineal gland:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/6b/Illu_pituitary_pineal_glands.jpg/250px-Illu_pituitary_pineal_glands.jpg

The pinecone in Roman Catholicism and simply catholicism in general represents the unity required to have a church. From one pine seed, you cannot grow a tree. From the whole cone you can. It's that simple and a pineal gland looks nothing like a pine cone at all as you can see. It looks like a tiny nub of tissue. The pine cone represents the people and the church. Seriously, that's what it means. No conspiracy about it.

also the hebrew peniel or penuel literally means "face of god" while pineal is a latin word that means "like a pinecone" which is funny because a pineal gland really looks nothing like a pinecone does it.

Here's another: http://www.crystalinks.com/pinealbrainstem.jpg

[Lucas]

I got a really good fake ID so I'm pretty sure the door man won't turn me away.

:cool:

Honestly I don't believe or dis-believe in heaven or hell.

If there is a heaven and I get there cool...if there is a hell and I get there, well I've got all of eternity to turn my desire into power and claim a position of influence. :D

[hskwarrior]

I got a really good fake ID so I'm pretty sure the door man won't turn me away.



i thought you were talking about strip clubs haha

[GoldenBrain]

some things you say I'm ok with, fine, you can believe what you like. But the pineal gland pine cone thing? Not so much.


I'm glad you approve of at least some of what I say...;):p:D

I do like your explanation of what the Catholics say about the pinecone and unity. I'm not trying to promote any conspiracy theories, so I'm okay with being wrong on that point. Although, it is in the realm of possibilities that there could be more than one reason to have a pinecone statue. It was just my opinion anyway so I hope I didn't offend you or anybody else.

Regarding the shape of the pineal. Below is a photo of what a pineal gland looks like without all the tissue around it. It kind of looks like the shape of a pinecone to me.

7819

While searching for a picture of the pineal gland I happened on the photo below, which does fall into the realm of conspiracy theories, however I'm not trying to promote it. I just thought it was interesting.


7820


And this one... I wonder if the Sumerians used the same explanation as Catholics regarding the pinecone and unity. I won't post all of the photos I found, but it appears that the pinecone is represented in numerous cultures unrelated to Roman Catholicism, so I wonder if the same explanation about unity is also a commonality.


7821


I'm not trying to prove or disprove what you said DJ. I'm just asking what to me is an interesting question. Does the pinecone represent the pineal gland or the third eye, and if not, do the other cultures who depict pinecones just like pinecones, or does it represent unity to them as well?

[bawang]

lol @ pineal gland

u do know pineal gland in tightey whitey is calcified

NO HEAVEN FOR YOU

[GoldenBrain]

lol @ pineal gland

u do know pineal gland in tightey whitey is calcified

NO HEAVEN FOR YOU


:( Sad face...


...wait a minute! This is where I get to play my indian card. Yea, heaven for me!:D

[SoCo KungFu]

If you believe in the possibility of "multiple universes" ( and some scientists do), then there is a possibility for "heaven" and "hell" to exist.

We must understand that OUR perception of what "heaven" may be and those of the ancients is clouded by our cultural bias and how it can be described is limited by our "language of the times".

Tangent from the main topic, but...

Even if such a condition exists that there is an infinite number of universes, it is not the case that anything is possible. This is a common misconception.

[Syn7]

It depends entirely on what you believe. Some believe Heaven and hell exist right here on earth. Some days, I am inclined to agree with that.

I remain agnostic about such constructs personally.

Is there anything you aren't agnostic about? When it comes down to it do you really know anything?:p






BTW, some many worlds interpretation models do state that possibility is actuality. They key to that sentence is "possibility". Just sayin... Not that we need to really get into all that. And as far as what sanjuro is saying... why can't this reality be heaven? or hell for that matter? You can take this line of thought pretty far. And while we're at it, how do you define something like that in the first place? W/o a clear definition, how can you even begin to pin it down like that?

[sanjuro_ronin]

Human tend to want to define everything, to put things into nice little "boxes" and "categories".
Even things we admit we don't know enough about.
The Trinity doctrine ( agree with it or not, that is not relevant) is a prim example of man trying to "pigeon hole" that which he can't really comprehend.
This is not a bad thing per say.
The issue is when man makes statements that tend to imply that we know all when we know so very little.
We can't discount the "supernatural" because we as human can only perceive/comprehend the natural.
I have faith in science, I have faith that science will eventually discover the "how" for everything.
The answer to "why" is another thing.
I think that IF we are made in God's image ( whatever that may mean) that this means we CAN comprehend all that God has done/is doing/will do and I think that desire to comprehend and to figure out is very much a "divine spark" in Us.
IMO, God desires Us to KNOW Him and that is what we are doing.

As for heaven and so forth and how to get there.
Well, as well all know, there are many roads that we travel in everything in life.

[David Jamieson]

Is there anything you aren't agnostic about? When it comes down to it do you really know anything?:p

The more I learn, the more I realize how little I do know quite frankly. :)

GB, I can appreciate you position. It is a good topic for discussion.

[Syn7]

Human tend to want to define everything, to put things into nice little "boxes" and "categories".
Even things we admit we don't know enough about.
The Trinity doctrine ( agree with it or not, that is not relevant) is a prim example of man trying to "pigeon hole" that which he can't really comprehend.
This is not a bad thing per say.
The issue is when man makes statements that tend to imply that we know all when we know so very little.
We can't discount the "supernatural" because we as human can only perceive/comprehend the natural.
I have faith in science, I have faith that science will eventually discover the "how" for everything.
The answer to "why" is another thing.
I think that IF we are made in God's image ( whatever that may mean) that this means we CAN comprehend all that God has done/is doing/will do and I think that desire to comprehend and to figure out is very much a "divine spark" in Us.
IMO, God desires Us to KNOW Him and that is what we are doing.

As for heaven and so forth and how to get there.
Well, as well all know, there are many roads that we travel in everything in life.

Science is a celebration of ignorance when you really get down to it. We aren't peeling the layer to an onion, as some say, because onions don't grow more skins for every one we "peel back". Answers simply beg new questions. It's a process that has no end, not for us anyways. If you want to throw heaven into that mix you can, it's just there there is no evidence to suggest either way.

As for trying to define things, that's just our nature. That's all that's it. Refer to scorpion and fox story. Scorpion wants to cross the river. He asks fox for a ride across. Fox says "nah man, you'll sting me". Scorpion says "no way, then we'll both drown" Fox thinks it over and agrees to give the ride. Half way through scorpion stings fox. Fox says "wtf man, now we're both gonna die". Scorpion says "I couldn't help it, it's my nature".

[sanjuro_ronin]

Science is a celebration of ignorance when you really get down to it. We aren't peeling the layer to an onion, as some say, because onions don't grow more skins for every one we "peel back". Answers simply beg new questions. It's a process that has no end, not for us anyways. If you want to throw heaven into that mix you can, it's just there there is no evidence to suggest either way.

As for trying to define things, that's just our nature. That's all that's it. Refer to scorpion and fox story. Scorpion wants to cross the river. He asks fox for a ride across. Fox says "nah man, you'll sting me". Scorpion says "no way, then we'll both drown" Fox thinks it over and agrees to give the ride. Half way through scorpion stings fox. Fox says "wtf man, now we're both gonna die". Scorpion says "I couldn't help it, it's my nature".

Indeed and that we ( humans) have this thirst for knowledge, that we imagine and we have "hopes and dreams", that we search for more "intangibles", that we are never "satisfied" and that we have this drive to know How and Why, that is truly awe inspiring.

[rett]

The pineal gland looks like a pine nut (not a pinecone).

http://www.marlerblog.com/uploads/image/pine%20nuts_2.jpg

[GoldenBrain]

The pineal gland looks like a pine nut (not a pinecone).

Hahahaha, excellent! Pine nuts are yummy.

It also looks like candy corn, which are also yummy, though I don't eat them anymore because they are pure sugar death.


7822

[GoldenBrain]

GB, I can appreciate you position. It is a good topic for discussion.

Kewel...:cool:

I'm not a conspiracy nut or anything, but I will discuss just about anything, especially the fringe topics which are very entertaining to me. Moreover, if I'm wrong on something, and it's pointed out to me then I'll happily learn from the exchange.

[David Jamieson]

Here' an interesting read from scientific american: http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/guest-blog/2010/05/27/michelangelos-secret-message-in-the-sistine-chapel-a-juxtaposition-of-god-and-the-human-brain/

I went and studied/visited this chapel a couple of months ago and toured the Vatican and it's museum. If you go forearmed with some esoteric knowledge, a lot of things are revealed by mere observation in that place.

[GoldenBrain]

I think that IF we are made in God's image ( whatever that may mean)

Maybe science is starting to explain this one. M-theory and string theory is attempting to explain parallel universes and other dimensions which goes along nicely with Buddhism's explanation of parallel dimensions. So, my thought is, if we are made in God's image then it may be something like this. The creator is on the other side of many panes of glass or other dimensions. Everything between him and us and beyond is made from him, and we may be evolving towards him, however we are unable to perceive him due to the number of panes of glass between us. We may be able to perceive these panes of glass or dimensions by taking measurements of bits of our reality as it interacts with the other dimensions. Gravity may be a clue. It's theorized that gravity, though strong in it's attraction is actually weaker than it should be. The reason for this is that it's possible that gravity is shared by other parallel dimensions. Everything is interconnected including the dimensions. Maybe a simpler explanation could be that it's like looking at our reflection in water. We can see and touch our reflection but the reflection cannot interact with us unless we touch it. In this example the creator would be the one looking at the reflection which is us.

I think the Buddha was speaking about parallel dimensions over 2000 years ago, or at least inter-connectedness between our world and everything else when he said this... “As a net is made up of a series of ties, so everything in this world is connected by a series of ties. If anyone thinks that the mesh of a net is an independent, isolated thing, he is mistaken. It is called a net because it is made up of a series of interconnected meshes, and each mesh has its place and responsibility in relation to the other meshes.”

[GoldenBrain]

Here' an interesting read from scientific american: http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/guest-blog/2010/05/27/michelangelos-secret-message-in-the-sistine-chapel-a-juxtaposition-of-god-and-the-human-brain/

I went and studied/visited this chapel a couple of months ago and toured the Vatican and it's museum. If you go forearmed with some esoteric knowledge, a lot of things are revealed by mere observation in that place.


Cool article. I've never heard of this, however I would imagine there are great many secrets hidden within the Vatican. A visit to the Vatican to check out the art and history is on my bucket list but what I really want to do is play around in their secret vaults. Imagine the stuff they have hidden away.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Maybe science is starting to explain this one. M-theory and string theory is attempting to explain parallel universes and other dimensions which goes along nicely with Buddhism's explanation of parallel dimensions. So, my thought is, if we are made in God's image then it may be something like this. The creator is on the other side of many panes of glass or other dimensions. Everything between him and us and beyond is made from him, and we may be evolving towards him, however we are unable to perceive him due to the number of panes of glass between us. We may be able to perceive these panes of glass or dimensions by taking measurements of bits of our reality as it interacts with the other dimensions. Gravity may be a clue. It's theorized that gravity, though strong in it's attraction is actually weaker than it should be. The reason for this is that it's possible that gravity is shared by other parallel dimensions. Everything is interconnected including the dimensions. Maybe a simpler explanation could be that it's like looking at our reflection in water. We can see and touch our reflection but the reflection cannot interact with us unless we touch it. In this example the creator would be the one looking at the reflection which is us.

I think the Buddha was speaking about parallel dimensions over 2000 years ago, or at least inter-connectedness between our world and everything else when he said this... “As a net is made up of a series of ties, so everything in this world is connected by a series of ties. If anyone thinks that the mesh of a net is an independent, isolated thing, he is mistaken. It is called a net because it is made up of a series of interconnected meshes, and each mesh has its place and responsibility in relation to the other meshes.”

The understanding of different planes of reality is something that, almost universally, all religions share.
The Judeo-Christian-Islamic faiths have proclaimed such form their very beginnings.
It is quite conceivable that those visitors from another reality ( angels if you will) are simply far more evolved beings, something that ( according to the bible) we will eventually be as well ( perhaps even more than them).
The apostle Paul wrote of us seeing through the "glass dimly".
Whatever the reality/truth may turn out to be, that humans are unique (on Earth) in their drive to KNOW the how's and why's is evident.
If we simply look at how much man has evolved in the last 100,000 years, can you imagine what the next 100,000 will bring?
Imagine beings that existed BEFORE earth? a race over 5 billion years old !
Imagine beings the exist in a dimension that is NOT subject to what we perceive as "laws" in this universe/dimension.
"Laws" that do not apply to them in THIS "reality".

[GoldenBrain]

If we simply look at how much man has evolved in the last 100,000 years, can you imagine what the next 100,000 will bring?
Imagine beings that existed BEFORE earth? a race over 5 billion years old !
Imagine beings the exist in a dimension that is NOT subject to what we perceive as "laws" in this universe/dimension.
"Laws" that do not apply to them in THIS "reality".

It boggles the mind, but it's really fun to think about. At some point I'm sure we'll understand.

Here's something cool to think about along the lines of parallel dimensions. The bible states Lucifer and his angles are fallen. What could that mean. It may be that the fell from a dimension a few steps above ours which we could call heaven. I've read spiritual theories that to evolve to these dimensions from ours, or to attain enlightenment, one must loose all thoughts of anger and fear and have only love and compassion. The thought here is that fear is a lower vibrational frequency (whatever that really means) and love is a higher one and that vibrational frequency is what determines which dimension we reside in. So, is that why Lucifer and his minions don't outright kill us? Maybe they know that if they directly do us harm then we will skip over their dimension which may be only one above ours and thus be more powerful than they are. Maybe that's why they can't return to heaven, because they are more in fear than love.

Anyway, I'm just rambling, which reminds me to thank wiz cool for letting us completely hijack his thread...:D

[sanjuro_ronin]

It boggles the mind, but it's really fun to think about. At some point I'm sure we'll understand.

Here's something cool to think about along the lines of parallel dimensions. The bible states Lucifer and his angles are fallen. What could that mean. It may be that the fell from a dimension a few steps above ours which we could call heaven. I've read spiritual theories that to evolve to these dimensions from ours, or to attain enlightenment, one must loose all thoughts of anger and fear and have only love and compassion. The thought here is that fear is a lower vibrational frequency (whatever that really means) and love is a higher one and that vibrational frequency is what determines which dimension we reside in. So, is that why Lucifer and his minions don't outright kill us? Maybe they know that if they directly do us harm then we will skip over their dimension which may be only one above ours and thus be more powerful than they are. Maybe that's why they can't return to heaven, because they are more in fear than love.

Anyway, I'm just rambling, which reminds me to thank wiz cool for letting us completely hijack his thread...:D

That is an interesting view.
If Heaven is love and the opposite of love is "repelled" like an different magnetic polarity then yes, the fallen ones can never go back and are "stuck here".
The writings tell us that they were happy to pass themselves off as gods to us "lower beings" and that they did this quite frequently ( hence the various gods in various cultures with similar powers and "appearances").
Some argue that with a cultural shift from "gods" to "aliens" that those visitations of the gods continue, we just accept them as aliens instead of gods ( in less developed areas there are virtually no alien sightings but still sightings of "angels" and "demons", etc..).
Supposedly, many of the "vampire" and "werewolves" lore is based on legends of "demigods" that are the offspring of "fallen angels" and human women.

And so forth...

[Jimbo]

It boggles the mind, but it's really fun to think about. At some point I'm sure we'll understand.

Here's something cool to think about along the lines of parallel dimensions. The bible states Lucifer and his angles are fallen. What could that mean. It may be that the fell from a dimension a few steps above ours which we could call heaven. I've read spiritual theories that to evolve to these dimensions from ours, or to attain enlightenment, one must loose all thoughts of anger and fear and have only love and compassion. The thought here is that fear is a lower vibrational frequency (whatever that really means) and love is a higher one and that vibrational frequency is what determines which dimension we reside in. So, is that why Lucifer and his minions don't outright kill us? Maybe they know that if they directly do us harm then we will skip over their dimension which may be only one above ours and thus be more powerful than they are. Maybe that's why they can't return to heaven, because they are more in fear than love.

IMO, a frequency in this case can be likened to, say, a radio station. Whatever you attune yourself for, becomes your overall experience. If you're always worried about such and such happening, or thinking negative thoughts, you tend to draw rose things to you...your focus is on what you DON'T want. Likewise, those who focus clearly on what they DO want, and take steps to achieve them, tend to experience success. You end up experiencing the reality (radio station) that you're attuned to.

As for negative forces, like the Christian belief in the devil, etc., what if such forces are there to provide contrast? We all have free will. How can you know/appreciate love, warmth, light, harmony, etc., if you've never experienced the opposite? If you become evolved, it would make sense that you would eventually move toward the positive. If everything were all love and light here in this earthly experience, there would be no stimulus to grow spiritually and find your way 'back'.

Anyway, just some personal thoughts, FWIW.

[David Jamieson]

also, fwiw, the idea of hell is not from the bible. It's from Dante and his divine comedy.

a three part story including -inferno- -purgatory- -paradise-.

Lucifer and the war in heaven is not really in there either and it is widely thought by scholars that the reference to the "fall" is in regard to the death of a Babylonian king.

Never sell short the human propensity to just make sh1t up. we do that. :) It fills the void of ignorance.

[sanjuro_ronin]

also, fwiw, the idea of hell is not from the bible. It's from Dante and his divine comedy.

a three part story including -inferno- -purgatory- -paradise-.

Lucifer and the war in heaven is not really in there either and it is widely thought by scholars that the reference to the "fall" is in regard to the death of a Babylonian king.

Never sell short the human propensity to just make sh1t up. we do that. :) It fills the void of ignorance.

Yes and no.
Our modern view of "hell" is tainted by Fiction.
Biblically speaking, the notion of hell is Ghenna/Hades ( NT) and Sheol (OT).
In the OT it was where the dead spirit goes before going to Heaven.
Sheol is a place where both the jewish equivalent of purgatory was and also "paradise" ( in some views) or "Abraham's bosom".
Heaven had many levels and, according to some views, Sheol was one of them.

In regards to Lucifier, yes, it has been viewed as applying to the Babylonian king BUT also to "Satan" the leader of the fallen ones ( See Enoch Book of the Watchers), the fallen ones are hinted at in Genesis.

We need to understand that the bible may have been written for us BUT not TO us and we need to read the various books with the understanding of the cultural influences of the time.

In 1st century Palestine and speaking to a Hellenistic crowd, Sheol meant very little but Ghenna and Hades brought for the imagery needed to convey the point of the sermon.

[sanjuro_ronin]

The Jewish view on "purgatory":

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/artic ... -purgatory

An intermediate state through which souls are to pass in order to be purified from sin before they are admitted into the heavenly paradise. The belief in purgatory, fundamental with the Roman Catholic Church, is based by the Church authorities chiefly upon II Macc. xii. 44-45: "If he [Judas] had not hoped that they that were slain should have risen again it had been superfluous and vain to pray for the (dead. . . . Whereupon he made an atonement that they might be delivered from sin"; for this indicates that souls after death pass through an intermediate state in which they may by some intercession be saved from doom. The same view, that an atonement should be made for the dead, is expressed in Sifre, Deut. 210. The idea of an intermediate state of the soul, release from which may be obtained by intercession of the saints, is clearly dwelt upon in the Testament of Abraham, Recension A, xiv., where the description is given of a soul which, because its good and its evil deeds are equal, has to undergo the process of purification while remaining in a middle state, and on whose behalf Abraham intercedes, the angels joining him in his prayer, whereupon the soul is admitted into paradise.

Rabbinic Views.
The view of purgatory is still more clearly expressed in rabbinical passages, as in the teaching of the Shammaites: "In the last judgment day there shall be three classes of souls: the righteous shall at once be written down for the life everlasting; the wicked, for Gehenna; but those whose virtues and sins counterbalance one another shall go down to Gehenna and float up and down until they rise purified; for of them it is said: 'I will bring the third part into the fire and refine them as silver is refined, and try them as gold is tried' [Zech. xiii. 9.]; also, 'He [the Lord] bringeth down to Sheol and bringeth up again'" (I Sam. ii. 6). The Hillelites seem to have had no purgatory; for they said: "He who is 'plenteous in mercy' [Ex. xxxiv. 6.] inclines the balance toward mercy, and consequently the intermediates do not descend into Gehenna" (Tosef., Sanh. xiii. 3; R. H. 16b; Bacher, "Ag. Tan." i. 18). Still they also speak of an intermediate state.

Regarding the time which purgatory lasts, the accepted opinion of R. Akiba is twelve months; according to R. Johanan b. Nuri, it is only forty-nine days. Both opinions are based upon Isa. lxvi. 23-24: "From one new moon to another and from one Sabbath to another shall all flesh come to worship before Me, and they shall go forth and look upon the carcasses of the men that have transgressed against Me; for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched"; the former interpreting the words "from one new moon to another" to signify all the months of a year; the latter interpreting the words "from one Sabbath to another," in accordance with Lev. xxiii. 15-16, to signify seven weeks. During the twelve months, declares the baraita (Tosef., Sanh. xiii. 4-5; R. H. 16b), the souls of the wicked are judged, and after these twelve months are over they are consumed and transformed into ashes under the feet of the righteous (according to Mal. iii. 21 [A. V. iv. 3]), whereas the great seducers and blasphemers are to undergo eternal tortures in Gehenna without cessation (according to Isa. lxvi. 24).

The righteous, however, and, according to some, also the sinners among the people of Israel for whom Abraham intercedes because they bear the Abrahamic sign of the covenant are not harmed by the fire of Gehenna even when they are required to pass through the intermediate state of purgatory ('Er. 19b; Ḥag. 27a).

History of Purgatory.
The idea of the purging fire through which the soul has to pass is found in the Zend-Avesta ("Bundahis," xxx. 20): "All men will pass into the melted metal and become pure; to the righteous it will seem as though he walks through warm milk" (comp. Enoch, lii. 6-7, lxvii. 6-7). The Church Fathers developed the idea of the "ignis purgatorius" into a dogma according to which all souls, including those of the righteous who remain unscathed, have to pass the purgatory (Origen on Ps. xxxvii., Homily 3; Lactantius, "Divinæ Institutiones," vii. 21, 4-7; Jerome on Ps. cxviii., Sermon 20; Commodianus, "Instructiones," ii. 2, 9); hence prayers and offerings for the souls in purgatory were instituted (Tertullian, "De Corona Militis," 3-4; "De Monogamia," 10; "Exhortatio Castitatis," 11; Augustine, "Enchiridion ad Lauram," 67-69, 109; Gregory I., "Dialogi," iv. 57). Hence also arose in the Church the mass for the dead corresponding in the Synagogue to the Ḳaddish (see Ḳaddish).

Bibliography:
Boeklen, Die Verwandtschaft der Jüdisch-Christlichen mit der Persischen Eschatologie, 1902, pp. 118-125;
Atzberger, Die Christliche Eschatologie, 1890, pp. 99 et seq., 162, 275;
Herzog-Hauck, Real-Encyc, s.v. Fegefeuer;
McClintock and Strong, Cyc. s.v
.

[Lucas]

If this is heaven, I am dissapointed. If this is hell, then I am unimpressed.

[GoldenBrain]

also, fwiw, the idea of hell is not from the bible. It's from Dante and his divine comedy.

a three part story including -inferno- -purgatory- -paradise-.

Lucifer and the war in heaven is not really in there either and it is widely thought by scholars that the reference to the "fall" is in regard to the death of a Babylonian king.

Never sell short the human propensity to just make sh1t up. we do that. :) It fills the void of ignorance.

Oh yeah, we do make **** up for sure, but there are quite a few references in the bible regarding Lucifer/Satan, hell and the war in heaven. The book of Enoch which was thrown out by Emperor Constantine for whatever asinine reason is not only a great read, but it's also a great place to find info on the story of the war in heaven, as Sanjuro pointed out. Below are a few other references.

Peter 2:4 For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to chains of gloomy darkness to be kept until the judgment

Revelation 12:7-9 Then war broke out in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back. 8 But he was not strong enough, and they lost their place in heaven. 9 The great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.

Revelation 12:9 And the great dragon was thrown down, that ancient serpent, who is called the devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world—he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him.

Isaiah 14:12-14
12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.

[GoldenBrain]

If this is heaven, I am dissapointed. If this is hell, then I am unimpressed.

I vote this for the quote of the day!

[GoldenBrain]

IMO, a frequency in this case can be likened to, say, a radio station. Whatever you attune yourself for, becomes your overall experience. If you're always worried about such and such happening, or thinking negative thoughts, you tend to draw rose things to you...your focus is on what you DON'T want. Likewise, those who focus clearly on what they DO want, and take steps to achieve them, tend to experience success. You end up experiencing the reality (radio station) that you're attuned to.

As for negative forces, like the Christian belief in the devil, etc., what if such forces are there to provide contrast? We all have free will. How can you know/appreciate love, warmth, light, harmony, etc., if you've never experienced the opposite? If you become evolved, it would make sense that you would eventually move toward the positive. If everything were all love and light here in this earthly experience, there would be no stimulus to grow spiritually and find your way 'back'.

Anyway, just some personal thoughts, FWIW.


I like your thinking there Jimbo. I tend to believe in the law of attraction which is why I try to put out more positive energy than negative. Some consider it new age mumbo jumbo, however quantum physics is currently attempting to prove up such a concept. This reminds me of the saying, lay with dogs and you get flees.

Some might ask why God allows death and suffering. If there is no death and suffering then how can we appreciate eternal life without suffering?

[SoCo KungFu]

BTW, some many worlds interpretation models do state that possibility is actuality. They key to that sentence is "possibility".

Would you explain this further? Because the way that I interpret this, leads to an internal contradiction.

[Syn7]

I'll give you a quick excerpt from a paper I have. I don't have a digital copy, but you may be able to get it yourself. Anyways...


One world or many?

Quantum theory seems to tell us that an understanding of our world can only be had by developing a theory of all possible worlds. Our world can be said to have structure and order only if it is embedded in a large ensemble of possible worlds. This ensemble is called wavefunction, and is not definable under the traditional Copenhagen interpretation of Quantum theory. Bohr did not believe in a wavefunction for the entire universe. He believed that the old style classical, non quantum object(such as an observer) was needed to "collapse" the possibilities down from many possible worlds to the one that actually exists.

Although most physicists believe there is only one objective world and some kind of collapse takes place, there is a significant minority who see the Copenhagen interpretation as an ad hoc and unnecessary addition to the theory. Quantum theory itself contains no collapse; such a device is not necessary to account for the phenomena we see around us. According to those who hold to the Everett interpretation, the collapse is just a fictitious device we invent whenever we make an observation and thus become aware of which of many possible universes we actually inhabit.

Although there are many other interpretations of quantum theory, it is this essential issue that runs through them all. Everyone seems to agree that the mathematical equations of the theory are about possibility. But Copenhagenists believe a collapse mechanism is necessary to ensure there is only one actuality. The many worlders declare that possibility is actuality - there is no meaningful distinction.

Anyways, you get the idea. It's just an opinion. That's the thing about the frontiers where physics and philosophy cross paths. Just because the math works, it don't make it so.

[GoldenBrain]

Below is a link to a reference on Alexander R. Pruss's Actuality, Possibility, and Worlds. It's a defense of an "Aristotelian-Leibnizian" account of metaphysical modality and should add a little more to the discussion from the philosophical side of things in regards to what Syn is talking about. It's pretty deep stuff.


http://ndpr.nd.edu/news/30418-actuality-possibility-and-worlds/

[Syn7]

Below is a link to a reference on Alexander R. Pruss's Actuality, Possibility, and Worlds. It's a defense of an "Aristotelian-Leibnizian" account of metaphysical modality and should add a little more to the discussion from the philosophical side of things in regards to what Syn is talking about. It's pretty deep stuff.


http://ndpr.nd.edu/news/30418-actuality-possibility-and-worlds/

Actually, what I posted was an excerpt from a philosophy paper, I believe. It's called Quantum superposition, Necessity and the Identity oh Indiscernibles. Goes through Leibniz, Parmenides, Shrodinger, Everett, and a smattering of a few more of main players.

I'll check that link.

[GoldenBrain]

Actually, what I posted was an excerpt from a philosophy paper, I believe. It's called Quantum superposition, Necessity and the Identity oh Indiscernibles. Goes through Leibniz, Parmenides, Shrodinger, Everett, and a smattering of a few more of main players.

I'll check that link.


Roger dat! I understood, and wasn't trying to step on your post or anything. I just thought the philosophical point of view in Pruss's work complimented what you were referring to from the quantum physics side of things.

[Syn7]

Roger dat! I understood, and wasn't trying to step on your post or anything. I just thought the philosophical point of view in Pruss's work complimented what you were referring to from the quantum physics side of things.

Step away man. I'm all about peer review. :)

I was just saying it was a philosophy paper because that isn't apparent in the excerpt I posted, that's all. For the sake of clarity and all that. ;) I like it when people ad on, refute whatever. It's all growth.

There's mos def a ton of grey in the all these fields. These are subjects that will never lack for another opinion, lol. I try to take it all with a grain of salt. I'm pretty agnostic about most of this stuff. M-theory appeals to me though. **** is wild. My education in Physics is geared toward engineering, so a lot of the high level stuff is really tough to wrap my mind around. But what I do understand is fascinating.

[SoCo KungFu]

I'll give you a quick excerpt from a paper I have. I don't have a digital copy, but you may be able to get it yourself. Anyways...



Anyways, you get the idea. It's just an opinion. That's the thing about the frontiers where physics and philosophy cross paths. Just because the math works, it don't make it so.

I see. So this basically starts at the point that the condition of possibility is established, not whether or not it will establish. So in that regard it does not commit the violation I was thinking.

[YouKnowWho]

In one religion, everybody want to go to heaven.

In another religion, people believe:

- If I don't go to hell then who should?
- As long as there is still one poor soul in hell, I refuse to go to heaven.

I like the 2nd religion much better,

[GoldenBrain]

Step away man. I'm all about peer review. :)

I was just saying it was a philosophy paper because that isn't apparent in the excerpt I posted, that's all. For the sake of clarity and all that. ;) I like it when people ad on, refute whatever. It's all growth.

There's mos def a ton of grey in the all these fields. These are subjects that will never lack for another opinion, lol. I try to take it all with a grain of salt. I'm pretty agnostic about most of this stuff. M-theory appeals to me though. **** is wild. My education in Physics is geared toward engineering, so a lot of the high level stuff is really tough to wrap my mind around. But what I do understand is fascinating.

Hahaha, I thought I understood, but I really do get it now. :o Sometimes after a long day I'm a little slow.:confused::D

[mawali]

Heaven and hell come from the same place. One's mental sphere!:D

[PalmStriker]

There was never a Beginning. That would be IMPOSSIBLE. QuantumState is just the entanglement of REALITY. It ends there. :)

[Shaolin Wookie]

When I was a kid, they said that if you stopped touching yourself and having lascivious thoughts about girls, that you could possibly make it into heaven.

I'm not saying that there isn't a heaven (though I don't believe in it). I'm just saying that there aren't any dudes in there.

[Scott R. Brown]

Heaven and hell come from the same place. One's mental sphere!:D

How do you know it's a sphere?:eek:

[wiz cool c]

If you believe in the possibility of "multiple universes" ( and some scientists do), then there is a possibility for "heaven" and "hell" to exist.

We must understand that OUR perception of what "heaven" may be and those of the ancients is clouded by our cultural bias and how it can be described is limited by our "language of the times".

aren't you the same guy that's jealous of a little girl in my video?

[David Jamieson]

For what it's worth, the Book of Enoch is not in mainstream bibles. It is an old jewish text. It is questionable because of a couple of things.

1. Enoch was less than 10 generation from Adam.
2. Enoch was said to have been transformed into Metatron, the scribe of god.
3. Catholics have 73 books, Protestants 66.


pretty heady stuff, out there. Not really applicable on many levels unless you are Ethiopian orthodox. In which case it is in your bible. It is apocryphal but not considered canon.

[sanjuro_ronin]

In one religion, everybody want to go to heaven.

In another religion, people believe:

- If I don't go to hell then who should?
- As long as there is still one poor soul in hell, I refuse to go to heaven.

I like the 2nd religion much better,

Very few religions that believe in he'll think that people got her without deserving it.
People make the choice to go there.

[sanjuro_ronin]

For what it's worth, the Book of Enoch is not in mainstream bibles. It is an old jewish text. It is questionable because of a couple of things.

1. Enoch was less than 10 generation from Adam.
2. Enoch was said to have been transformed into Metatron, the scribe of god.
3. Catholics have 73 books, Protestants 66.


pretty heady stuff, out there. Not really applicable on many levels unless you are Ethiopian orthodox. In which case it is in your bible. It is apocryphal but not considered canon.

What we now call 1Enoch was viewed as part of the "sacred texts" by at least 1 Nt writer, Jude, that we know of for sure.
It's a good read but almost as controversial as Revelation and The book of Daniel.
Suffice to say that many elements in the book of watchers are present on the Jewish and Christian apocalyptic writings.

[MasterKiller]

Putting my wee wee in a girl's hoo hoo is a straight path to the only heaven I need.

[wiz cool c]

What we now call 1Enoch was viewed as part of the "sacred texts" by at least 1 Nt writer, Jude, that we know of for sure.
It's a good read but almost as controversial as Revelation and The book of Daniel.
Suffice to say that many elements in the book of watchers are present on the Jewish and Christian apocalyptic writings.

[sacred texts] a day ago this guy was hating on a young lady in my self defense video,now this guy is talking about sacred text, o that is hilarious

[MarathonTmatt]

:( Sad face...


...wait a minute! This is where I get to play my indian card. Yea, heaven for me!:D

Hey, cool GoldenBrain-- I am of NDN (First Nations) decent too-- good to see you on here! Maybe I can get some back up next time I go on my rants :cool: - my thought process always circles back to an NDN POV and I just say what I think sometimes.

[GoldenBrain]

Hey, cool GoldenBrain-- I am of NDN (First Nations) decent too-- good to see you on here! Maybe I can get some back up next time I go on my rants :cool: - my thought process always circles back to an NDN POV and I just say what I think sometimes.

Nice to meet you brother! As long as your rant isn't off the wall kooktastically crazy I'll get your back. Maybe even if it does get crazy, who knows. :D

I have a chunk of Choctaw and Chickasaw blood, what's your lineage? NDN and First Nations are new terms to me so help me out here. Does NDN stand for indian or indigenous? And, is First Nations referring to a specific group of tribes or generally all people of native American decent?

[MarathonTmatt]

You won't see this too much in our modern world BUT....
-Every thought, every action should be a prayer. Every waking moment should be spent engaged in active prayer. Always pay attention.
-Every stone that was lifted, every stone that was placed was done so in great reverence. Every step was taken in prayer, in reverence. prayer was given to the earth, the sky, the water, the rocks, the animals used to sustain us, etc.
-Do not cry for the dead, they are in a better place, instead we cry for ourselves who are left behind in this state.
-there is no past, present or future. All is one.
- Only the NDN knows how to care for this land. The white man has ruined everything. Even environmentalists are a joke. Our people knew how to work WITH nature, not against it. everything now is backwards. and MUCH has been lied about- pre-Columbian population densities were much higher than they say it was. 80%, 90% and 100% of villages, cities, killed by planned germ warfare. (c'mon, Europeans already had the black plague, they knew what they were dealing with plus some old journal entries have also come to light)
-There are more earth/stone works, pyramids, etc. in "north" America than there are in "central" America, even on the east coast, it was not just a few bands of people that is ridiculous and insulting (that is what the survivors were reduced to after the "little ice age" and disease took hold, annihilating 90+%.)
-300 million + dead, less than 2% of population surviving= mankind's biggest genocide ever.
-20,000 yr. old archeology dig & artifacts in Connecticut and 30,000 yr. old digs in Peru do not add up to 10,000- 15,000 yr. old Bering Strait migration theory. Those are just 2 examples of many, I heard of some charcoal analysis in Brazil that was much older still.
-Bering Strait theory has never been proven- it is just a theory that has been used to justify the illegal stealing of another race of people's lands. but they plaster that s**t all over the place most just assume its fact with never doing the homework. If any truth, it only accounts for a small percentage in one area to be accounted for, and even then, it wasn't a one-way street, it would have gone both ways- Native American people would have travelled to Siberia, for instance. From Alaska to Peru in 10,000 years? With the diversity that exists? Bullsh*t!!
- Perhaps us First Nations people, indigenous to the Americas, are the forefathers of some of the Asian cultures. I do believe we are an older culture and race, and people have the migration routes backwards. Not enough of us around to always speak up for ourselves, though.
Read: Red Earth, White Lies by Vine Deloria Jr.

[MarathonTmatt]

Nice to meet you brother! As long as your rant isn't off the wall kooktastically crazy I'll get your back. Maybe even if it does get crazy, who knows. :D

I have a chunk of Choctaw and Chickasaw blood, what's your lineage? NDN and First Nations are new terms to me so help me out here. Does NDN stand for indian or indigenous? And, is First Nations referring to a specific group of tribes or generally all people of native American decent?

Oh, cool. I am mixed myself. On my mother's side I have Cree ancestry, they are Canada's largest indigenous ethnic group- mine specifically is from the St. Lawrence watershed in Quebec. On my father's side I am Iroquoian (Tuscaroran and Oneida) and Ojibwe. Some of the Iroquois migrated to the mid-west from upper-state NY. Since my line was actually mixed Scottish and Amer. Indian, they eventually settled off-reservation and had a farm in Allamakee County, Iowa, which itself was Indian territory not long before they settled there (it wasn't a bowl of cherries though and there was racism directed towards my family from the white settlers, even escalating to violence and beyond). My great grandfather lived in Winnipeg, Manitoba (Canada) for 9 years where he met my great grandmother, who was Ojibwe. They eventually moved back down to Iowa. My grandfather on this side of my family was always active, he was involved as a board member with the American Indian Center in Chicago, sort of a pan-Indian community center in response to the Indian Relocation Act of 1950 and a growing population of urban native americans.
So yeah, I have the Cree, Ojibwe, and Tuscarora/ Oneida, as well as Scottish, French Canadian and even Swedish as my heritage. I live in New England though, always have. I did just get back from a Powwow this weekend, the Natick band of the Nipmuc Nation's Harvest Moon Powwow.
Yes, NDN is slang for "Indian." IMO it sets the word Indian apart from people from India, while still functionally using the word in its supposed context. First Nations is a Canadian term for the different sovereign tribal nations in Canada. I like the term because I do not so much like "aboriginal", "indigenous" or "tribal" those words seem too un-dignified. So I adopt First Nations (peoples) as my preference as far as terminology goes.
Cool, you are part Choctaw/ Creek!! I am down w/ that, word up! If I understand correctly your ancestors built a lot of the earthern "mound" pyramids along the Mississippi!

[GoldenBrain]

Cool, you are part Choctaw/ Creek!! I am down w/ that, word up! If I understand correctly your ancestors built a lot of the earthern "mound" pyramids along the Mississippi!

Thanks for the explanation and the breakdown of your lineage.

I am not Creek, though in the 1830's they were forcibly moved to Oklahoma territory along with Choctaws, Chickasaws and other tribes. Like the Creeks, the Choctaws and Chickasaws did build burial mounds, but I'm not sure who built the larger pyramids. Choctaw and Chickasaw tribes share a common lineage and where founded by two brothers, Chahtah and Chickasah. The history on this can be found here...http://www.choctawnation.com/history/choctaw-nation-history/

I get my native American blood from my dad who is 1/4 Choctaw, 1/4 Chickasaw and 1/2 french. From my mom I get even parts English, Welsh, Swedish and German.


So, to bring this back on topic a little bit. Choctaws and Chickasaws were proselytized in the 1700's by Protestants, so for most Choctaws and Chickasaws of today, the way to heaven is through Jesus Christ. Before that, Choctaws and Chickasaws were sun (male deity) and moon (female deity) worshipers. They believed in a great spirit (God) and an evil spirit (devil). The great spirit was the creator of everything including the lessor gods such as the sun, moon, evil spirit...etc. When they died they believed that their spirit would still be attached to their bodies for a period of time but after that they would move on to the happy place land (heaven). They didn't have a concept of hell that I am aware of and felt that all people went on to the happy place. I think they believed that the evil spirit and evil people could get stuck here for a time as spirits but would eventually get to the happy place. That sounds a little bit like purgatory. They believed all things in existence had a spirit and were created from and were part of the great spirit and thus deserved a measure of respect. They gave thanks for their kills and what they ate and all the things they received. It was pretty easy for them to adopt the Christian religion since it was very much aligned with what they already believed. The Catholics were the first to try to convert them, but they failed leaving room for the Protestants which were successful in their attempts. There's so much more to their beliefs but that's the in a nutshell version.

[MarathonTmatt]

[QUOTE= There's so much more to their beliefs but that's the in a nutshell version.[/QUOTE]


Nice, thanks for sharing. I think just about all Native American peoples had the Happy Place, or Happy Hunting Grounds concept in their views of the after-life. Even today I am inclined (from personal experience) to say that it is for real.
Also I like your point about the sun and moon deities, as well as other deities. The Tuscarora (from my line) converted to Christianity in the 1700's. Originally from North Carolina they had a bad war with the white settlers and the majority fled and sought refuge with the Oneida Nation, in New York & became the League of 6 Nations with the coming of the Tuscarora- but of course later on there was yet another real-estate issue, and my line and many others migrated again to the mid-west.
Just about every NDN Nation was forcefully removed from their traditional territories by white settlement at one time or another. I like to tell people that not one square foot of this land wasn't already settled and lived on before the settlers came.
My friends with the Natick Band of Nipmucs are actually known as Praying Indians, they were also early converts to Christianity, of course blending these concepts with NDN concepts. One of the elders I got to know (a Miq'Mak) who was performing ceremony is a minister with the Native American Church.
Yup- there were (and in some places still are, even well preserved) burial mounds, pyramids and temples all over the place, even in New England but of course it gets covered up!
Good to talk! I'll catch up with you later!