Will you pick Taiji as your primary art if combat is your goal?

[YouKnowWho]

If the answer is yes, why? If the answer is no, why?

Let's stay away from health, self-cultivation, inner peace, performance, ... and concentrate on "combat" only in this thread.

[Jimbo]

No.

IMO, Taiji is a highly specialized MA. How does one initiate offensively as opposed to mostly defense/countering? How can it be used against someone who refuses to stay engaged in close? Those questions are the reasons for my vote.

These are my observations. I'm not saying that there aren't some bad@sses out there whose primary art is Taiji, though, as I'm sure there are.

[bawang]

taiji fist poems are a good reference for longfist and other northern systems, but taiji quan itself doesn't actually use the poems.

[-N-]

No.

IMO, Taiji is a highly specialized MA. How does one initiate offensively as opposed to mostly defense/countering?

I had a student who was an Aiki Jitsu teacher who trained in Japan for ~20 years. Aiki Jitsu, not even Aikido.

He had a throw that he thought was not usable and didn't think it made sense.

It was the same idea as Praying Mantis' Dip Jang, the stacking elbows takedown.

I showed him the Dip Jang as a follow up to Fung Tung Chui, the grapple punch attack - which is a classic Praying Mantis combination.

His eyes got big, and he got all excited and told me that now he finally understood about that Aiki Jitsu technique that he thought didn't work.

Then he realized that there were other techniques that relied on initiating with an attack to provoke a response to take advantage of. And he began to revisit all his previous training with that in mind.

[PalmStriker]

I sparred with a black belt status Yang Taiji practitioner many years ago and got beat down for the attack I waged. Especially after he deflected a hand strike and my fingertips caught his cheek and made for a little bleed. He wasted no time in closing at that point. No grappling. His moves were all defensive. For this reason I will have to say no to the question stated by OP because there are times when offense beckons and you have to Bruce Lee the enemy.

[-N-]

For this reason I will have to say no to the question stated by OP because there are times when offense beckons and you have to Bruce Lee the enemy.

Sounds like you are saying that his Tai Chi was effective.

Or are you saying that when he closed in it was not Tai Chi?

[Fa Xing]

I train Taiji to relax, but I train JKD to fight.

Both have their use.

[Robinhood]

If the answer is yes, why? If the answer is no, why?

Let's stay away from health, self-cultivation, inner peace, performance, ... and concentrate on "combat" only in this thread.

That depends on your age, size and time frame. External styles will give you the most bang for your buck if you are in a hurry and are athletic. In the long run, the opposite will happen.

WC will probably give the fastest bang for the buck for street combat, sport combat probably MMA, both looking at the short run of time frame.

[PalmStriker]

Sounds like you are saying that his Tai Chi was effective.

Or are you saying that when he closed in it was not Tai Chi? I had sparred with him on several occasions, I think he either thought I wounded him intentionally or just wounded his pride by being "marked" by a much lesser ranking fighter.:D In any case he hit both arms and one leg with strikes that left all but one standing leg temporarily paralyzed. Can't say I ever saw one of his strikes or kicks coming, only the impact. I used to like to spar to get hit and see how long I could keep going. They knew me for my tumbling feats off asphalt/concrete so they knew I was up for it.

[jimbob]

No, I wouldn't choose it as my primary art.

- There don't seem to be many teachers who can teach it as a realistic fighting strategy.

- If by 'combat' you mean fighting against a skilled opponent then you'll have better luck finding a capable teacher with MMA, or kickboxing and you'll be practising what you need to know from the very start.

- If by 'combat' you mean self defense, I think anything that has you training live from the start would be an option, but I would really want someone who can teach me good self defense psychology at the same time. I don't know of many taiji teachers who do this.

- If by "taiji" you mean everything commonly associated with taiji - form work, qigong, push hands etc - then no. There is too much non essential stuff and my time is limited.

(caveat - I've been practising taiji since 1988. Even my teacher, who I respect tremendously and consider my second father- I still don't think he's the best person to teach fighting, and still don't know if he can fight. I don't really care. Your teacher John, is the one of the few who seemed to be able to do it for real. There aren't that many Grandmaster Chang's in the world.)

[David Jamieson]

If combat is my goal, I will join the army and learn what they teach.

You don't think that "combat" really applies within everyday society anymore do you? I mean, I'd understand if we all lived in some backward world (or in those parts where it is still uncivilised and backwards) but if you want to fight in sports venues, that's pretty different from combat per se.

Tai Chi doesn't offer any full contact fighting venues like other sports do like Judo or Sumo or Sanda or MMA or boxing or kickboxing or GR wrestling and so on and so forth.

There is no vigorous training with tai chi. the combat is gone from tai chi. It hasn't been there for all our lives. there are no Tai Chi fighters out there except for in stories or movies. There are no tai chi warriors.

Tai Chi is a form of meditation in more ways than most think. it doesn't focus on application or use in real attack and defend scenarios. even push hands doesn't measure up in any way to what actual combat unfolds as.

Tai Chi is no good for combat, but it's great for keeping your body supple and your joints limber and your mind clear. It's a nice way to start and end the day, but it's dangerous to believe yourself martially capable to the modality of combat because you do Tai Chi.

[Frost]

If combat is my goal, I will join the army and learn what they teach.

You don't think that "combat" really applies within everyday society anymore do you? I mean, I'd understand if we all lived in some backward world (or in those parts where it is still uncivilised and backwards) but if you want to fight in sports venues, that's pretty different from combat per se.

Tai Chi doesn't offer any full contact fighting venues like other sports do like Judo or Sumo or Sanda or MMA or boxing or kickboxing or GR wrestling and so on and so forth.

There is no vigorous training with tai chi. the combat is gone from tai chi. It hasn't been there for all our lives. there are no Tai Chi fighters out there except for in stories or movies. There are no tai chi warriors.

Tai Chi is a form of meditation in more ways than most think. it doesn't focus on application or use in real attack and defend scenarios. even push hands doesn't measure up in any way to what actual combat unfolds as.

Tai Chi is no good for combat, but it's great for keeping your body supple and your joints limber and your mind clear. It's a nice way to start and end the day, but it's dangerous to believe yourself martially capable to the modality of combat because you do Tai Chi.

dan dochertys guys in the UK have been fighting full contact sanda for decades so their are tai chi fighters, but I agree not many and for the most part tai chi is not a fighting art and would be last on my list of choices, right after wing chun lol

[jimbob]

How many Dan Docherty's are there around?

Sure - there may be some teachers with 'combat' (whatever that means) backgrounds, but there sure as hell aren't many.

David is right - if combat is pure go to war with weapons and maybe wind up fighting hand to hand 'combat'- then join the military and learn from the specialists.

If 'combat' is ring fighting against another opponent who has a similar level of fitness, ability and experience as you do - go to a MT, sanda, mma, boxing, judo etc gym, and learn from the experts.

If 'combat' is self defense on the street - honestly, you're better off training with 400m runners. Or go find someone like Tony Blauer (just as an example) - and learn from them.

John - you need to clarify what you mean by 'combat'.

[Jimbo]

If 'combat' is self defense on the street - honestly, you're better off training with 400m runners.

That's assuming the defender doesn't have some type of chronic injury already. Otherwise, that's just as impractical. Ever see how fit many young perps are in outrunning the cops?

[David Jamieson]

That's assuming the defender doesn't have some type of chronic injury already. Otherwise, that's just as impractical. Ever see how fit many young perps are in outrunning the cops?

Or beating up war vets...

I think that as long as someone thinks style will bring them readiness is as long as they shall remain ignorant.

Just train for the sake of it and to do what you enjoy.
If you enjoy full contact fighting, train for that and seek out those venues.
If you enjoy esoteric chit chat and some drills and sparring, seek that.
Style won't bring you skill. Being a part of someone elses experience doesn't define you or identify you.

If you aren't on a battlefield getting shot at these days, then really, you aren't a warrior. You're just a practitioner of some thing or another. In training for something that may never happen because you aren't in the environment to call yourself a warrior.

If you're not happy with what the definition of you is, then so long as you aren't stupid as a bucket of sponge, you should have a pretty good idea how to get that identity you want.

:p

[YouKnowWho]

John - you need to clarify what you mean by 'combat'.
According to American Combat Shuai Chiao Association, the word "combat" is defined as "the integration of kick, punch, lock, throw, and following up striking".

http://combatshuaichiao.com/main.html

When David C. K. Lin was hired to teach Sionics, a prestigious Georgia-based Anti-terrorism school. He found out that his students in that school (CIA agents, FBI agents, president's body guards, ...) were not interest in tournament winning but "how to take care bad guys", the training was evolved and the term "combat" was used since then.

[bawang]

combat is a little baby cow that has just been born and not yet opened its eyes, its purple like an eggplant

[YouKnowWho]

If combat is my goal, I will join the army and learn what they teach.

I assume if you train something like this, you can call yourself training "combat".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2WsCqlvOGGg

In

- "sport", you are not allow to do so.
- "self-defense", you may not want to hurt your opponent this bad.

So what will you call your training if you don't use the word "combat"?

[Golden Arms]

I assume if you train something like this, you can call yourself training "combat".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2WsCqlvOGGg

In

- "sport", you are not allow to do so.
- "self-defense", you may not want to hurt your opponent this bad.

So what will you call your training if you don't use the word "combat"?

That is pretty much why we use the word as well. It doesn't mean you only want to have those type of responses on call, but it does mean we train them.

[David Jamieson]

I assume if you train something like this, you can call yourself training "combat".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2WsCqlvOGGg

In

- "sport", you are not allow to do so.
- "self-defense", you may not want to hurt your opponent this bad.

So what will you call your training if you don't use the word "combat"?

Just training. That's all it is until you use it.

[Frost]

I assume if you train something like this, you can call yourself training "combat".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2WsCqlvOGGg

In

- "sport", you are not allow to do so.
- "self-defense", you may not want to hurt your opponent this bad.

So what will you call your training if you don't use the word "combat"?

actually in sport you could do that...how I miss the early pride shows lol
I hate to do this but I have to agree with DJ that's not combat its training just like throat strikes and eye gauges aren't combat but technique applications

[Lucas]

if you are strictly training so that you can use your skills that you are building in combat, then technically you are training combatives.

the moment adjustments are made for 'fairness' you have just changed what you are training from combat to art/sport.


'Fair fight' is a myth. No fight is fair.

[xinyidizi]

I assume if you train something like this, you can call yourself training "combat".



So if your throwing demo is combat then why this Chen taiji guy's throws shouldn't be called combat?

www.youtube.com/watch?v=tb-__XJ1zQg

[YouKnowWho]

So if your throwing demo is combat then why this Chen taiji guy's throws shouldn't be called combat?

www.youtube.com/watch?v=tb-__XJ1zQg

This is just my definition. If you

- just throw your opponent down and end right there, it's "sport".
- choke/knock your opponent out after your throwing, that's "combat".

To me, "'combat" require "finish moves". Most of the "finish moves" after throwing can either be choke your opponent out by your ground game, or knock your opponent out by your stand up game.

If you do consider "ground game" or "follow up striking", the way that you will throw your opponent and the way that you will force your opponent to land are important.

If you training

- include that, you are training "combat".
- don't include that, you are training "sport".

[xinyidizi]

This is just my definition. If you

- just throw your opponent down and end right there, it's "sport".
- choke/knock your opponent out after your throwing, that's "combat".

To me, "'combat" require "finish moves". Most of the "finish moves" after throwing can either be choke your opponent out by your ground game, or knock your opponent out by your stand up game.

If you do consider "ground game" or "follow up striking", the way that you will throw your opponent and the way that he will land are important.

If you training

- include that, you are training "combat".
- don't include that, you are training "sport".

In that video just like you the taiji guy can also easily choke or kick his opponents head if he chooses to and traditionally taiji combat is taught that way but we can just pretend doing the finishing move in training. So in that case taiji is an effective combat martial art.

Pushing people far away is for demos and competitions where you can lose points for falling from the leitai. In traditional taiji you want them to fall close and down so that you can finish them ideally at the same time that the land. Even if you push them it's to prepare them for the follow up strikes like in the canon fist.