Straight sword v Broad sword

[Blacktiger]

I can remember hearing somewhere that back in the day...

Broad sword was a weapon more for soldiers and the straight sword was more for nobility/generals etc, requiring higher skill level.

I may be on the wrong tip with this happy to be corrected...

;)

[Minghequan]

That's interesting! I have never heard of that before! What is the source of this info?

Also which is your personal preference and why?

[David Jamieson]

A Jian is a proper sword. Double sided. Requires finesse to wield properly with skill.

The Chinese broadsword (Big knife) is a hacking machete more than anything else.

[RenDaHai]

Hey There,

The western names are confused. Really the Jian is the broadsword (it is double sided and traditionally often wide) The Dao is a curved sword with a single edge and so is a Sabre.

A lot of what we see of the Jian is a modern interpretation.

You see there is the scholars Jian, which is long and thin and useful only really for duelling. Then there is the War-sword. This is also a Jian, but it is quite short and very wide. It has a thick metal cylinder running down the center which makes it strong and very heavy. When you stab the fingers touch the blade, one finger either side of the cylinder, this is where we get the classic sword-fingers from (it is the sword grip for stabs, there are many grips). This is a very old type of sword, but it is an effective battlefield weapon (of course i do not know this from experience, it is Chuanshuo, orally passed down).

The techniques of the War-sword are the same as the standard Jian, but it does not 'Flower' (spin). Form is performed somewhat differently in that it requires very strong positioning so every stance is perfect, exact and held extended instead of flowing.

Needless to say today most people only use the scholars Jian. There is also the double hand sword, the long tassle sword and 1000 other speciality variations.

BUT, the Jian is much harder to use than the sabre (what you think of as the broadsword). Why? The sabre is very strong, it can be used to hack and slash and block attacks directly rather than deflect, as such it is easier to train someone to use. So while a foot soldier may use a sabre a General might use a sword. This is not to say the sabre does not have good techniques too, of course it does.

So the Sabre is by far the more common weapon on the battle field. The sabre is also very effective against other weapons. When you do your Sabre forms, it is likely many of the techniques are designed to defeat a spear as opposed to another sabre, because the spear is the most common and dangerous weapon.

The war sword is also effective against other weapons. The Scholars Jian is not really strong enough to be.

There is a saying in China; 'Dao Zuo Hei, Jian Zuo Ming' ( I think). That is, The Sabre is wielded darkly, the sword brightly. This is both literally and metaphorically true.

Metaphorically because the sabre is often moved in such a way that it is hidden behind the body or shield. This way its approach can not be seen which is convenient because it requires long slashes to be effective. The Sword however is wielded and held in plain view. This is because it relies on its changeability, cutting precisely over short distances, so it does not need to disguise its approach. Rather let the opponent intercept if they can and move around it. This is why the Jian is much harder to use.

Literally it is also true. This is because at night time in the dark the Sabre is the best choice of all the weapons. Night in ancient times is pitch black. You cannot stab or do vertical attacks because they have less chance of success. Long horizontal sweeps at mid level are the choice at night. They cannot be ducked or jumped. So often you will find there is a YeXing Sabre form in many schools. This is the 'Nightwalkers sabre'.

[rett]

Great stuff, thanks.

[GeneChing]

The western names are confused. Really the Jian is the broadsword (it is double sided and traditionally often wide) The Dao is a curved sword with a single edge and so is a Sabre. You're spot on with this, but you cannot change language. As a translator of Kung Fu as well as a product of Western fencing, I wish I could kick the arse of the first person who called a dao a broadsword. It was a complete mistranslation and it stuck. The term 'broadsword' arose to distinguish them from the more advanced thinner blades from the earlier thicker (or broader) ones. It was used primarily for straight blades.

The distinction between dao (http://www.martialartsmart.com/weapons-chinese-weapons-broadswords.html) and jian (http://www.martialartsmart.com/weapons-chinese-weapons-tai-chi-swords.html) by infantry and officer, as well as by level of sophistication in technique and effectiveness in battle, is really simple. But I think we've grown so detached from the realities of swordsmanship that people make up all sorts of ****amamie tales based on marginal observations. To keep it simple, it's much easier to handle a single-edged sword over a double-edged sword. This is true on every level. You need only to work with a live blade to see. What's more, it's far more difficult to make double-edged sword. Remember, real swords were made by hand, so to achieve symmetry and uniformity in a double-edged sword took far more skill. So with a jian, you had a more expensive weapon that required far more training to master. This made the jian more the property of the gentry who could afford to purchase such a weapon and pay for a teacher.

Like so many things, it's really all about the financials. Jian are considered more 'upper class' because for the most part, only the upper class could afford them.

[RenDaHai]

What's more, it's far more difficult to make double-edged sword. Remember, real swords were made by hand, so to achieve symmetry and uniformity in a double-edged sword took far more skill. So with a jian, you had a more expensive weapon that required far more training to master. This made the jian more the property of the gentry who could afford to purchase such a weapon and pay for a teacher.

This is very true. I meant to add this to my original post but forgot it halfway through (writing a lot).

The sabre can be made very cheaply, there are a huge range of qualities from very poor indeed. It can basically be a sharpened sheet of metal. So they can be made en masse. As you rightly say the double edged weapon requires skill and expense to make, so it is reserved.

Generally amongst the Wulin the Jian is considered the most difficult weapon, but also the best.

[GeneChing]

Take it from a former swordmaker - it's a ***** to make a double-edged sword symmetric. You have to line everything up along two planes - and then line those two planes up with each other. With a single-edged sword, it's only one plane of symmetry.

The same class distinction occurs in Europe to some degree, although not quite until the move towards thinner blades (away from broadswords). In Asia, there's this totally different cultural shift with the symbolic power of the shamshir and the kirpan, as well as the katana (http://www.martialartsmart.com/ninja-samurai-kendo-samurai-kendo-weapon.html) in their respective cultures. And then, of course, there's the kris, but we'll label that an outlier.

[bawang]

Generally amongst the Wulin the Jian is considered the most difficult weapon, but also the best.

jian needs accuracy. there are 100 people screaming and moving around you, and you have to hit a target on your opponent 1mm wide. the most difficult to use weapon is the worst. jian has been out of use for over 2000 years. it is a ceremonial weapon.

[Blacktiger]

Cheers - thanks for the info guys, knew you would be all over this :)

[bawang]

Cheers - thanks for the info guys, knew you would be all over this :)

you are welcome, my son.

[RenDaHai]

jian needs accuracy. there are 100 people screaming and moving around you, and you have to hit a target on your opponent 1mm wide. the most difficult to use weapon is the worst. jian has been out of use for over 2000 years. it is a ceremonial weapon.

The spear also requires hitting a precise target and yet it is the King of battlefield weapons, not just in China but across the world. It is easy to use for a beginner but at the same time extremely difficult to use well.

Not out of use, the Jian has always been the sidearm of choice for the proficient. Not just during battle, but at all times. Again I am talking not about the Scholars thin Jian but the battle Jian. It is twice as wide and has a metal pipe running down the centre. It can be used for simple chopping and hacking as well as precise sword work, so it really tops the sabre. Its a very strong weapon designed for fighting against short, long and heavy weapons alike.

I see your point, but thats why we differentiated between classes. The ancient battlefield is something none of us can be familier with now, but certainly it was a different experience for officers and for soldiers.

And weapons were not just for the battlefield. Just walking to the nearest town you open yourself to 10,000 dangers. People assume this has changed nowadays, but ever walk down a street in rural china? The cars are just as dangerous and deadly as bandits and tigers could be. I feel a lot better carrying a stick.

[bawang]

The spear also requires hitting a precise target and yet it is the King of battlefield weapons, not just in China but across the world. It is easy to use for a beginner but at the same time extremely difficult to use well.

because spear wall
http://weaponsandwarfare.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/09/24241466_leg_bat_pidna_02.jpg

Not out of use, the Jian has always been the sidearm of choice for the proficient. Not just during battle, but at all times. Again I am talking not about the Scholars thin Jian but the battle Jian. It is twice as wide and has a metal pipe running down the centre. It can be used for simple chopping and hacking as well as precise sword work, so it really tops the sabre. Its a very strong weapon designed for fighting against short, long and heavy weapons alike.

dats a mace bro. its technically a sword-mace


I see your point, but thats why we differentiated between classes. The ancient battlefield is something none of us can be familier with now, but certainly it was a different experience for officers and for soldiers.


im familiar bro

im familar

[RenDaHai]

because spear wall

dats a mace bro. its technically a sword-mace

im familiar bro

im familar

I like the spear wall... But this is lance strategy for a large scale battle on a battlefield. There are a lot of arenas where you could not use this. I am sure there are similar strategies for smaller skirmishes though. These group strategies used to part of Kung Fu training, there are formulas for battle arrays and principles that go with them, but I have not learned these things and I don't think many people practice them or know them any more. Would love to learn more.

It may be some sort of sword mace, but I have seen swords passed down in families and donated to museums. This is the type of Jian people have. Not the thin one. This Jian is ugly and very heavy, but it is not the same as the whip mace. It is a fantastic weapon.

[bawang]

It may be some sort of sword mace, but I have seen swords passed down in families and donated to museums. This is the type of Jian people have. Not the thin one. This Jian is ugly and very heavy, but it is not the same as the whip mace. It is a fantastic weapon.

the sword mace is angular and shatters, the whip mace is round and deforms.

I like the spear wall... But this is lance strategy for a large scale battle on a battlefield. There are a lot of arenas where you could not use this.

because Chinese people carried 18 feet spears to work

[RenDaHai]

the sword mace is angular and shatters, the whip mace is round and deforms.


Intercepting another weapon with the 'sword-mace' you intercept primarily with the flat of the blade. That is the wide bit with the pipe. This does not shatter. You cut flesh with the edge.

The round mace of course is very strong from all angles but must swing or stab to make an impact, it cannot slice which limits its targets.

[bawang]

Intercepting another weapon with the 'sword-mace' you intercept primarily with the flat of the blade. That is the wide bit with the pipe. This does not shatter. You cut flesh with the edge.

The round mace of course is very strong from all angles but must swing or stab to make an impact, it cannot slice which limits its targets.

sword mace has hard steel like a sword, it shatters. whip mace is soft steel, it deforms.

[RenDaHai]

sword mace has hard steel like a sword, it shatters. whip mace is soft steel, it deforms.

Right, I see. Whip mace is a good weapon too. What can i say. All weapons have the potential to break during use. Especially if you use them badly.

[YouKnowWho]

Broad sword was a weapon more for soldiers ...

there is a good reason for it. When you attack with a broad sword, if your opponent blocks it with his shield in battle field, you can turn your broad sword and the back of the broad sword can slide over his shield, the tip of your broad sword can still stab into his chest. You can't do that with your double edges sword.

http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=broads+word&FORM=HDRSC2#view=detail&id=14C045CEC1AE2942B7D232F0A691D3AF499451BE&selectedIndex=48

[Hebrew Hammer]

There are a couple of good documentaries from China's CCTV on the evolution of ancient Chinese weapons and arms/armor. I'll see if I can find the links. But as armor and massed warfare developed, the one handed jian or long sword fell out of favor, except by the nobility, for the heavier Two handed Jian, which also had greater killing range and the Dao, Dadao type weapons.

It does take greater skill and training to become proficient with the one handed jian as the killing stroke is the narrow tip of the sword in a spear like thrust. Although double edged it isn't heavy enough to kill armored foes with a slice. The Dao is the more of a hacking (generally speaking ) weapon with a greater killing surface. It's also the preferred weapon of mounted cavalry around the world, ask the Mongols, the Saracens, or British royal guards. Wudang emphasizes this proverb: “100 days of bare hand, 1,000 days of spear, 10,000 days of sword” which places mastering the sword as the highest achievement in martial arts.

Heavier two handed Jians and thicker Dao's are more resistant to shattering, surviving longer on the battlefield. If you had to train large amounts of foot soldiers or conscripts it will probably be easier to train them to a decent level of killing proficiency using a dao than long sword.

Just look how elegant the Tai Chi Jian work is compared to Dao demos. Certainly a higher level of dexterity is required.

Check out some the videos entitled 'New Frontier Chinese Civilization or Chinese Kung Fu Weapons of Kung Fu" Lots of good stuff on Wudang and Shaolin and martial arts/warfare on here.

http://www.youtube.com/user/cctv9documentary?feature=watch

[pazman]

At least with the weapons I've learned, most of the weapons training in TCMA bear very little resemblance to how they were historically used.

Fighting with a spear depended on a few basic techniques and being able to fight in formation. In some of the more famous taolu, those techniques and strategies are there, yet embedded in opera performance.

As for the jian, things are even more tricky. When I learned damojian, the taolu uses one hand, but when I learned the two man drills and strategy, we'd use two hands. :confused:

[mawali]

The broad sword is more of a 'battlefield weapon" because of its hacking ability as opposed to the jian (at least for the past 300 years, or so), which may be for the scholar, the officer corps and others. The jian may have retained martial utility but it is not for the 'battlefield' as the Dao was!

The Big Sword Battalions were broad sword based so their function was already made by the actions of the common soldiers.

[Cheng oi]

I would like to trade in my broadsword for a nice Jian someday - I was a muscle man - so I wanted the big one - my plan was to stay at least strong enough to handle a broadsword - just to make sure I never got way way way too weak in my old age - Teacher told me which one to get but I didn't listen - I like the flags on it more than anything - it's a little too long - it's 32 inches & should be 28 @ the most - I wold think - I have a nodachi that I do my taichi forms with - because I don't have a straight sword this one (http://www.martialartsmart.com/45s-53.html) seems cool - I liked the black metal one as well - I don't remember the name , but I liked the blade on it with all the writing on it - but I liked the family art sword scabbard & handle - I couldn't afford to look anything more expensive - they are just for exercise though - I use them all daily - except the Jiedao - it's mainly to collect or even use for it's intended purpose if I'm ever traveling like that

I got a shaolin Jiedao to do forms with in a hall way - I was just using it in here - It's the only one I have that is sharpened - & I have to admit - I never noticed until just now how many opportunities I had to cut my arm off in the forms - no wonder they wouldn't deliver a sharp Broadsword - I would probably have at least cut my ear off by now

[Cheng oi]

I would need to learn the forms in the opposite direction as well - to be balanced - especially with that big heavy broadsword

[SIFU RON]

You're spot on with this, but you cannot change language. As a translator of Kung Fu as well as a product of Western fencing, I wish I could kick the arse of the first person who called a dao a broadsword. It was a complete mistranslation and it stuck. The term 'broadsword' arose to distinguish them from the more advanced thinner blades from the earlier thicker (or broader) ones. It was used primarily for straight blades.

The distinction between dao (http://www.martialartsmart.com/weapons-chinese-weapons-broadswords.html) and jian (http://www.martialartsmart.com/weapons-chinese-weapons-tai-chi-swords.html) by infantry and officer, as well as by level of sophistication in technique and effectiveness in battle, is really simple. But I think we've grown so detached from the realities of swordsmanship that people make up all sorts of ****amamie tales based on marginal observations. To keep it simple, it's much easier to handle a single-edged sword over a double-edged sword. This is true on every level. You need only to work with a live blade to see. What's more, it's far more difficult to make double-edged sword. Remember, real swords were made by hand, so to achieve symmetry and uniformity in a double-edged sword took far more skill. So with a jian, you had a more expensive weapon that required far more training to master. This made the jian more the property of the gentry who could afford to purchase such a weapon and pay for a teacher.

Like so many things, it's really all about the financials. Jian are considered more 'upper class' because for the most part, only the upper class could afford them.

TRUE and WELL SAID :)

[Cheng oi]

I'm glad I saw this -> The dangers of stainless steel swords (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4mspT919FXo)
I noticed stainless steel knives in the kitchen broke as well


---


you be the judge
straight (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IoplTy0ZnuA) Vs Broad (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vNjxnaBRx_8)

[Lokhopkuen]

"100 consecutive days to internalize the Saber.

10,000 consecutive days to internalize the Sword."

[Subitai]

After I watched that vid...somehow I ended up clicking on this:


Skip to the 5:00min mark if you wanna see 2 pigs get cut...

Chinese War Sword : Cold Steel Swords

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8PQiaurIiDM

Kinda interesting...But I just don't think I have a reason to own one of these.

I didn't check how much they want for one either.

Still it counts as a single edged knife eh?