Tommy Yuen Man Fung - Knives and Pole

[BPWT]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_IM7A4YjZ5M&feature=player_embedded

[Graham H]

Monty Python's take on the Long Pole and Knives

[BPWT]

I hadn't heard of Tommy Yuen before. Apparently he was one of the senior guys under WSL.

[Graham H]

I hadn't heard of Tommy Yuen before. Apparently he was one of the senior guys under WSL.

Very good fighter apparently.

[LoneTiger108]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_IM7A4YjZ5M&feature=player_embedded

Well, this is the first time I have seen this type of demo online... maybe influenced by the recent Ip Man movies??

Brings on the whole 'do we ever turn our back' debate, but in this context I can see it working due to the body barring the pole for just about long enough to get into position for the chop... quite typical in southern knife work I have seen and a nice intent on the receiving blades too

[wtxs]

Brings on the whole 'do we ever turn our back' debate, but in this context I can see it working due to the body barring the pole for just about long enough to get into position for the chop... quite typical in southern knife work I have seen and a nice intent on the receiving blades too

Just MHO, in the video, turning your back 360 before finishing your opponent may violates the economy of motion concept.

He had already intercepted/controlling the pole, why not just keep "walking" the knives down, cut the forward hand and than ... any other available body parts.

[KPM]

Just MHO, in the video, turning your back 360 before finishing your opponent may violates the economy of motion concept.

He had already intercepted/controlling the pole, why not just keep "walking" the knives down, cut the forward hand and than ... any other available body parts.

That was my thought exactly! ;) What did turning his back by spinning around accomplish?

[Eric_H]

That was my thought exactly! ;) What did turning his back by spinning around accomplish?

He did it as a form of advancement, moving to the opponent to the dead side.

Staying in front of the guy and walking down the pole would have given him a chance to counter, he did it as a way to move to the space the pole fighter wouldn't have had leverage.

I've not done WC swords so I wouldn't propose to justify if it fits into that framework, but from being a wudang sword guy, it looks just fine.

[Jansingsang]

That was my thought exactly! ;) What did turning his back by spinning around accomplish?

I was surprised by this also. Its not a thing turning your back.. Sigung Wsl I believe would't indorse this idea :( Within the form i know there's no turning of the back This to me is as bad as flipping the Knifes debate Anything which compromise your own safety isn't correct VT Imho:(

[KPM]

Staying in front of the guy and walking down the pole would have given him a chance to counter,

---The way I see it, the only real option the pole wielder had to counter was to sidestep with a "Taan Gwan" motion. He was free to do this whether the knife wielder had his back turned or not. By turning his back, the knife wielder disengaged his knives from contact with the pole and therefore some control of the pole. This makes it more likely, not less likely that the pole wielder will have a chance to counter.

he did it as a way to move to the space the pole fighter wouldn't have had leverage.

--But he could simply step forward into the same space without spinning.

I've not done WC swords so I wouldn't propose to justify if it fits into that framework, but from being a wudang sword guy, it looks just fine.

---Maybe he is drawing from a background in other Chinese sword work. But from a Wing Chun standpoint it seems to me it is wasted motion and an unnecessary risk. But I'm no expert with the weapons either.

[wtxs]

Just MHO, in the video, turning your back 360 before finishing your opponent may violates the economy of motion concept.

He had already intercepted/controlling the pole, why not just keep "walking" the knives down, cut the forward hand and than ... any other available body parts.


He did it as a form of advancement, moving to the opponent to the dead side.

Staying in front of the guy and walking down the pole would have given him a chance to counter, he did it as a way to move to the space the pole fighter wouldn't have had leverage.

I've not done WC swords so I wouldn't propose to justify if it fits into that framework, but from being a wudang sword guy, it looks just fine.


The idea of the economy of motion is not unique just of WC, any additional (wasted) move in the course of defend/attack serves only to give your opponent more chance of counter.

Others had pointed out, he had lost "control" of the pole during the turning, with only one knife edge in contact, he could and will get smack in back of the head with an Tan Gwan ... as others also pointed out.

Moving to the opponent's dead side?

[Graham H]

Those guys have no idea of knife fighting or pole fighting or at least it doesn't look like it.

[LoneTiger108]

Typically dismissive coments all round except for a non-WCK guy... interesting?? Sifu Yuen has passed away too I read and was one of WSLs original HK 4 senior disciples...

http://sefuyuen.tripod.com/english/Photo.htm

[BPWT]

... and was one of WSLs original HK 4 senior disciples...


But did he build an apartment over his garage? (sorry, I just couldn't resist :D :D)

[wtxs]

He did it as a form of advancement, moving to the opponent to the dead side.

Staying in front of the guy and walking down the pole would have given him a chance to counter, he did it as a way to move to the space the pole fighter wouldn't have had leverage.

I've not done WC swords so I wouldn't propose to justify if it fits into that framework, but from being a wudang sword guy, it looks just fine.

Whether you had played with the WC knives or not, economy of motion concept applies across all WC lineage, no matter how fast you can turn your back and reface you opponent, chance of getting hurt in that transition I personally would not take.

[Eric_H]

The idea of the economy of motion is not unique just of WC, any additional (wasted) move in the course of defend/attack serves only to give your opponent more chance of counter.

Others had pointed out, he had lost "control" of the pole during the turning, with only one knife edge in contact, he could and will get smack in back of the head with an Tan Gwan ... as others also pointed out.

Moving to the opponent's dead side?

So we may have to agree to disagree on this one, as I understand WC you can control the opponent through gravity or through angle or both. Saber fighting as I've learned works using an idea of walking the circle around the opponent, facing the square in the middle and dealing with a single line. These are more or less different ways to work strategy and leverage together.

When the guy in the video turns his back, he is using what i would refer to as circular strategy, moving to the side of the opponent so that the opponent would have to apply his pole cross body to counter (weak angle). He is attempting to take advantage through angle instead of staying straight on and dealing with potential short range mechanics of the pole fighter (from what i remember of YM pole there was some fun stuff for that). Additionally, he can be considered to be blocking the length of the pole with his body, making the pole fighter have to back up or keeping him frozen in medium/short range where a long weapon is not as effective.

I'm not saying it's the only option, I'm just saying I can see a reasonable goal to what he was trying to achieve. looking at the setup, i think walking down the pole could have worked, but would be a challenge to gravity instead of angle. I think the pole guy had more opportunity in that scenario based on the setup.


Also, live/dead side is a common stick/weapon fighting thing from CMA. We use it in Hung Fa Yi WC, I know Hung Gar uses it and I've heard of it in more than a few other places. It's a paradigm for stating how much advantage you have/how much opportunity the opponent has.

[Vajramusti]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_IM7A4YjZ5M&feature=player_embedded
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imho- a good wc man who knows kwan usage would have taken the other guys head off as he turned.

[Wayfaring]

Whether you had played with the WC knives or not, economy of motion concept applies across all WC lineage, no matter how fast you can turn your back and reface you opponent, chance of getting hurt in that transition I personally would not take.

The grappler in me would drop the pole and take the back when the guy is spinning. Speaking of economy of motion.

[Vajramusti]

A comment FWIW. Ip Man taught only a few people the use of the bot jam do and the kwan and how to integrate them with body dynamics.
Vaguely sensing the importance of the weapons- youtube is full of people who make up their
own motions- often badly.