Is Self Defense a Myth?

[Kellen Bassette]

I am becoming increasingly uncomfortable with the term "self defense."

It's used across the board to sell martial arts, but I doubt it really has much to do, historically, with traditional war arts. We all know "self defense" has long been used to persuade Western parents into putting their kids into a MA program, but are we drinking our own Kool Aid?

If you think about it, "self defense" is almost counter intuitive to the mindset of fighting. The military drills, conditioning and desensitizing of orthodox Gong Fu seems awfully far removed from anti-bullying and protecting yourself from rapists. I'm not saying those are bad things, but are we really to believe that comes from the same art as forging the body and mind into a weapon?

What kind of person is going to start a street fight with me? More likely than not it will be an Alpha male type. It will probably be an aggressive person that feels they are stronger than me. Putting yourself on defense starts you off with a losing strategy...you really need a mindset, not unlike the aggressors, to deal with this type of aggression.

Sure, it's a cliche that the best defense is a good offense, but do you really think your going to deflect and parry your way to victory? Going to save it all up for the one big finish? The attacker, is generally in a better position than the defender.

I think if you look at it objectively, the whole "self defense" thing isn't really what the tradition was.

[YouKnowWho]

To be honest, I truly don't know what "self defense" is. When people talk about it, it sounds like they are the pray of some preditor. I like to be the tiger that trying to eat my opponent alive and not the other way around.

If you attack me, I will jump back to regain my distance. I'll then attack you. It's you that will need to learn some "self defense". This is the kind of attitude that I like to train for myself.

This is one of my favor jokes.

A: I'm going to walk in Central Park.
B: It's not safe to go there. People always get robbed.
A: That's why I'm going over there. I'm a bit short in cash.

It may be mucho talk but life will be much more fun if we can look at it from a positive angle.

[Kellen Bassette]

I like to be the tiger that trying to eat my opponent alive and not the other way around.


How can you make someone a skilled fighter with a victim mentality? :confused:

[Raipizo]

I agree Kellen. You have to believe what you practice and have faith, not not be prey but at the same time don't be and idiot and be an aggressor. Even having confidence in your ability could change the outcome.

[YouKnowWho]

How can you make someone a skilled fighter with a victim mentality? :confused:

In my Chinese wrestling field, people

- will get their credit by playing offense and lose.
- won't get their credit by playing defense and win.

The reason is if you play offense and lose, one day you will be good in your offense skill. If you play defense and win, you will never be good in your offense skill. Some Chinese wrestling teachers won't even teach defense skill until 3 years later, They want their student to attack, attack, and still attack.

[RenDaHai]

You see, I am the opposite, I find your point of view very hard to understand.

Perhaps you can explain what you believe a fight to be? What from your experience leads you to believe it is this way?

It takes two people to fight, if you are a good person it is likely you will be attacked, not the other way around, nor will you willingly enter into an even fight.

When someone attacks you they want something from you. Either something material like your money, or something immaterial like your humiliation. Either way they need something and so they attack. Your biggest advantage is that you need nothing from them. In order to win they must take this thing from you, but in order for you to win you just need the fight to stop, you do not need to 'defeat' them.

When someone attacks you they have all the standard advantages. They know how far they are willing to go, you do not, they know what they want, you do not, they can begin first, you cannot. Your one advantage is that you need nothing from them and so there are many ways for you to win, there is only one way for them to win.

Can't win a fight by parrying? I disagree, I have gotten through fights guarding alone. Good footwork, a strong guard and a clear purpose in mind you can defend your way through a fight. You think after you evade their first 3 attacks they are going to keep attacking you indefinitely? Would you keep attacking someone who is in full guard? Its not a ring, time is limited, energy is limited, anger is limited and there are no points. They want an easy win, always, as soon as you make it hard for them a lot of people will rethink. With a patient guard lots of opportunities for counter attack present themselves.

Self defence is real. Also lots of Chinese 'Martial arts' are specifically for self defence, not for war. There are classically 3 categories of Chinese Wushu, Soldier, civilian and spiritual. All are very different.

[Syn7]

As far as I'm concerned, if you engage that is an act of war and you should treat it as such. If somebody attacks you, why mitigate the damage? Hit em hard and fast. Walk away alive, not righteous. People can keep their moral highground crap. I have a code and I live by that code. That code involves letting people be, but when they break the peace, you break them.

[RenDaHai]

As far as I'm concerned, if you engage that is an act of war and you should treat it as such. If somebody attacks you, why mitigate the damage? Hit em hard and fast. Walk away alive, not righteous. People can keep their moral highground crap. I have a code and I live by that code. That code involves letting people be, but when they break the peace, you break them.

It is not even about moral high ground. Its about safety. There are consequences to your actions. You want to risk escalating the fight to a more dangerous level, you want to risk yourself being in trouble for causing damage? Fights happen all the time, and most of the time they are just little punch ups. Of course we need to use judgement to assess how dangerous a situation is, and any violent situation is potentially deadly whether deliberately or accidentally. But if you only have this attitude of 'hit 'em hard and fast' I am confident it will cause more trouble for you than a more cautious approach. I am also confident that when a situation arises you will suddenly question your approach, and that is dangerous. If you go into a fight knowing you are going to be defensive and resolute in your method you will be much stronger than if your mind is saying: 'Hmm should I be aggressive?'.

Trying to be aggressive when you are confused is a mistake and sudden situations are confusing.

[YouKnowWho]

There are consequences to your actions.
This is the beauty of the grappling art. You don't need to punch on your opponent's face to end a fight.

If I attack you, you sweep me down. After you have done that 3 times to me, I don't think I want to attack you any more.

[David Jamieson]

Courage, awareness and sensible choices are the tools of self defense.

Fighting is fighting.

defend yourself does come into play when fighting though.

But what is the important thing to teach people?

Euripides said: "Courage can be taught in the same way a child learns to speak".
This simple statement has a lot to it. If you do not try to speak or you do not attempt to speak, then it is unlikely that you will develop good speaking skills. The same is true with courage. If you don't practice being courageous, then it's unlikely you ever will reveal that in yourself. But it is key to self defense.

[Kellen Bassette]

You see, I am the opposite, I find your point of view very hard to understand.


What I'm talking about isn't the events that lead up to the fight, or the reason for fighting; and I'm not saying you initiate the attack....I'm talking about the training mentality. It is very different for people who claim "self defense" as the focus, compare with people trying to become a "fighter." It may seem like the same thing, but it is not. (Not necessarily referring to just sport fighting, although it is a good example.)

I think to fight you need to accept the reality that you will most likely get hit. If that is unacceptable you should never fight anyone. If getting hit for real, is not in your training, I think you will not be competent at defending yourself. Someone who trains hard and heavy with their partner must become aggressive and develop a fighter's mindset, or quit.

Historically, we know that TCMA was military arts, and we know all elite military must train in a way that prepares their mind for battle. They must become soldiers. I understand that is not our name, but training with what I call a "victim mentality" is counter productive to being competent under extreme pressure.

Iron sharpens iron and you need that to develop mindset to employ martial skill, otherwise you probably won't be able to handle it or make anything work.

[Kellen Bassette]

Courage, awareness and sensible choices are the tools of self defense.

Fighting is fighting.


This is true and you cannot develop courage doing only compliance drills and form work. You can develop courage by fighting and by training under heavy pressure. This training will change your mindset and you will not have a "self defense" mentality.

[MightyB]

Street Fights are usually a group activity:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0nTvP0qkVHk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HS4D04_n2CI

I'll have to look for it, but I posted a clip that had real street crime and violence - that was brutal. You really can't prepare for it in a kwoon. It's hard to describe without seeing it, but basically to be prepared for real self defense, you need a weapon and a bunch of armed friends.

[YouKnowWho]

If a 10 years old kid uses a stick to hit you and all you do is to block his attack, soon or later his stick will hit you. So self defense doesn't mean that you will only play defense and never hit back. If you do decide to hit back then why don't you hit back earlier? If you hit back earlier then can you still call it self defense?

When you do "self defense", it's the same as you "help someone to go to heaven". It may only look pretty outside.

[MightyB]

Here's the reality of street violence https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=581992838499289 (log into facebook to watch)

I posted it earlier. Short of carrying a gun, always being aware, and having a gang of like-minded thugs backing you up, there isn't really much you can do to prepare for real self-defense.

Self-defense training in a MA school is still LARPING, it's a myth.

[Syn7]

It is not even about moral high ground. Its about safety. There are consequences to your actions. You want to risk escalating the fight to a more dangerous level, you want to risk yourself being in trouble for causing damage? Fights happen all the time, and most of the time they are just little punch ups. Of course we need to use judgement to assess how dangerous a situation is, and any violent situation is potentially deadly whether deliberately or accidentally. But if you only have this attitude of 'hit 'em hard and fast' I am confident it will cause more trouble for you than a more cautious approach. I am also confident that when a situation arises you will suddenly question your approach, and that is dangerous. If you go into a fight knowing you are going to be defensive and resolute in your method you will be much stronger than if your mind is saying: 'Hmm should I be aggressive?'.

Trying to be aggressive when you are confused is a mistake and sudden situations are confusing.

It has served me well so far. What do you think I meant? Just kill anyone who gets rough? Using common sense is a given, no? What I'm saying is that the opponents state after the fight is of no concern to me during the fight. You do what you have to do to end it as soon as possible. Whether that means going to extremes or simply putting them on their ass entirely depends on the who what when where and why's. Thinking about legal consequences and trying to mitigate damage during the actual conflict... now that's the stuff that gets you hurt. There is no confusion about it. It's actually quite simple and makes it so confusion is significantly less likely. You make that snap decision and you just do it. And like I said, I have a code and I live by that code, I couldn't care less about the law. It just so happens that my code falls in line with the criminal code in many ways. Besides, 99.9999% of what keeps you safe is how you avoid danger altogether.

Anyone who thinks drilling will make it so they don't have to make that snap decision is delusional and has never been in a real situation where the unknowns are great enough that serious injury or death is a possibility.

[Jimbo]

The best bet is to avoid all trouble to the best of your ability. That would literally be self-defense. But 'the art of self-defense' is a phrase referring to fighting methods such as boxing, fencing/cane work, jujutsu, etc., that's been in use in the West at least since the 1800s.

That said, adopting an overly cautious approach for those SHTF situations that absolutely cannot be avoided is suicidal, IMO. Because, if you're overly concerned about the safety and welfare of your attacker, you are already two steps behind. You are putting mental restraints on yourself, while he's completely free of restraints. It assumes that because of your training you are so superior to him that you can toy with him and do with him as you wish. It is also assuming that he has no ace up his sleeve ready for those times when his initial attack doesn't work. It assumes he hasn't garnered (possibly) years of actual ambushing/fight experience, whether formally trained or self-taught through experience.

Of course, as already mentioned, it depends entirely on the situation. You would not deal with a frail, senile, unarmed 90-something year-old running amok in the same way as a drunken collegiate wrestler, or an experienced thug. I don't think anybody said to be on kill mode at all times. A 'semi-friendly punchup' does not warrant the same response as an unprovoked street assault or home invasion.

[Alex Córdoba]

I am becoming increasingly uncomfortable with the term "self defense."

I am becoming increasingly uncomfortable with the term "Myth".

One day the word itself will be a Myth.

[lkfmdc]

in a word, YES

- training a day, a week, a few months can never prepare you for what would happen if you were really attacked in the real world

- "military" blah blah bullcrap is a joke because real military planning isn't about teaching you some fool proof deadly CQC system, real military planning is that a certain percentage die immediately, another percentage die in progress and as long as the battle is won that's all that matters

CIA, KGB, Israeli secret service, Viking fighting, etc, too foolish to even discuss with a straight face

Traditional martial arts, so much of it is not at all about "fighting" and much of what WAS about fighting is no longer relevant

[YouKnowWho]

Whether you want to use fancy term or non-fancy term, the meaning are still the same:

- "borrow" vs. "steal",
- "self defense" vs. "fight",
- "help someone to go to heaven" vs. "kill".
- ...

[Kellen Bassette]

If you do decide to hit back then why don't you hit back earlier? If you hit back earlier then can you still call it self defense?

When you do "self defense", it's the same as you "help someone to go to heaven". It may only look pretty outside.

I agree with this.

[Kellen Bassette]

It is not even about moral high ground. Its about safety. There are consequences to your actions. You want to risk escalating the fight to a more dangerous level, you want to risk yourself being in trouble for causing damage?

I agree. If your not willing to escalate the level of danger you should not engage in the fight. You should run. More often than not, this is the wiser choice. Why not train running instead? Where does self defense come into play? It's not the same as attacking your aggressor, that is fighting.

[Kellen Bassette]

I am becoming increasingly uncomfortable with the term "Myth".

One day the word itself will be a Myth.


:):) Me too really, lol...the myth busting thing has gotten out of hand and here I am adding to the problem...:p

[Kellen Bassette]

- "military" blah blah bullcrap is a joke because real military planning isn't about teaching you some fool proof deadly CQC system, real military planning is that a certain percentage die immediately, another percentage die in progress and as long as the battle is won that's all that matters


That's what I mean by the military tradition...it's very different then how it's often presented. You train, harden and desensitize troops...you understand there will be losses and are prepared to accept it. The individual understands there is a very real possibility of serious injury or death, the mindset is different...this has nothing to do with the Western ideology of "self defense."

[Syn7]

The first step in any real potentially violent situation is to avoid engagement. But once that threshold has been crossed... You do what you have to do. Sometimes recognizing that line is your greatest asset. When to put you hands up and back down vs when you take aggression to whatever level you have to in order to feel safe. So obviously you don't viciously stomp somebody once their out of commission. But if they are getting back up? Do what you have to. If they are winning a fist fight, you shouldn't have to ask yourself why you are fist fighting and when it's appropriate to start tearing off body parts. Know what I mean? And all that is assuming you are even able, which of course is why we always start with rule one. Cause you don't know, it's just that simple. But once that attack starts, you have to assume it can get deadly. It's about survival of the fittest, pure and simple. Whether you use your mind, your hands, a weapon, any combination of these things... you do what you have to do. I honestly think worrying about legal or moral consequences is a potentially fatal mistake. We aren't talking about school yard fist fights here. I am assuming that we are all peaceful and not looking for trouble, and if that's the case... well, you know what I'm sayin.

[lkfmdc]

"if you aren't prepared to die, better to not go to war today"
Old Japanese saying

[Jimbo]

I agree. If your not willing to escalate the level of danger you should not engage in the fight. You should run. More often than not, this is the wiser choice. Why not train running instead? Where does self defense come into play? It's not the same as attacking your aggressor, that is fighting.

Some people cannot physically run, or at least outrun most (young) attackers. Meaning those with chronic issues, etc. But I agree that the best 'defense' is to simply not be where the trouble is, or doing your best to avoid it. Problem is, that isn't always possible.

[MightyB]

Nobody says "hey, get ready 'cuz I'm going to attack you!", that's why teaching SD is mostly a joke.

Thing is, there's three types of people based on how you deal with a real threat and they are Flight, Fight or Freeze. You don't have much in a choice in what you are, but unless you can really address and find out what you really are fer realz - then there's no way that you can learn a defense.

[Kellen Bassette]

Consider the example of nature. Alpha dog asserts dominance over Beta dog. Beta dog does not engage Alpha dog. He rolls over on his back and pees on himself. If Alpha attacks Beta, Beta cowers, retreats, may defend, but without conviction, tail is between his legs, he looks for an opportunity for retreat. This is self defense mindset.

Alpha dog confronts Alpha dog. If one attacks, the other does not defend. (Not in the sense of Beta dog.) He attacks his attacker. One or both will probably be injured.

I do not believe these two scenarios are the same, or can be prepared for in the same way.

[Kellen Bassette]

Thing is, there's three types of people based on how you deal with a real threat and they are Flight, Fight or Freeze. You don't have much in a choice in what you are, but unless you can really address and find out what you really are fer realz - then there's no way that you can learn a defense.

Yes.......

[lkfmdc]

best "self defense"is to learn to live in a way that avoids conflict... ironically, most TCMA went from living a pretty normal life to being exposed to unsavory and dangerous people by studying so called "self defense"

[Kellen Bassette]

But I agree that the best 'defense' is to simply not be where the trouble is, or doing your best to avoid it. Problem is, that isn't always possible.

No it isn't always possible; and best laid plans and all....there are no guarantees...

[lkfmdc]

No it isn't always possible; and best laid plans and all....there are no guarantees...

never impossible, but always less and less probable depending upon how you think and conduct yourself....

[Kellen Bassette]

best "self defense"is to learn to live in a way that avoids conflict... ironically, most TCMA went from living a pretty normal life to being exposed to unsavory and dangerous people by studying so called "self defense"

Your very experienced with both sides of the coin...would you agree that there is a very different mindset in developing a fighter, as opposed to working self defense?

[lkfmdc]

Your very experienced with both sides of the coin...would you agree that there is a very different mindset in developing a fighter, as opposed to working self defense?

NO, totallly DISAGREE....

violence is violence

never noticed how many 'sport fighters" get into street and bar fights??

take a guy who has all that ring or cage experience against the guy who took a "self defense program" in a bar fight and the "sport fighter" eats his lunch

[MightyB]

NO, totallly DISAGREE....

violence is violence

never noticed how many 'sport fighters" get into street and bar fights??

take a guy who has all that ring or cage experience against the guy who took a "self defense program" in a bar fight and the "sport fighter" eats his lunch

But is a bar fight self defense?

Take a sport fighter or SD guy, have them walking down the street or taking their girl to her car in a parking garage and have someone out-of-the-blue slam them upside the head with a brick. Then two of their buds start kicking the sh*t out of the guy as another drags the girl off to do who knows what.

[Kellen Bassette]

NO, totallly DISAGREE....

violence is violence

never noticed how many 'sport fighters" get into street and bar fights??

take a guy who has all that ring or cage experience against the guy who took a "self defense program" in a bar fight and the "sport fighter" eats his lunch

Yes, because self defense doesn't develop the same mind set as fighting, because it's not the same thing. That's what I was getting at....

[lkfmdc]

But is a bar fight self defense?



"self defense" is bull****

how many people have been hit in the head with a brick and stompted by three guys who were just innocently walking down the street?

[lkfmdc]

Yes, because self defense doesn't develop the same mind set as fighting, because it's not the same thing. That's what I was getting at....

people come in for a "self defense class" and don't want to get sweaty, they don't want to get hit, they don't want someone on top of them on teh ground grabbing at them... and all that is exactly what will happen in "da real fight"

I like to walk up to people in self defense seminars and just SCREAM AT THEM AS LOUD AS I CAN.... I haven't even touched them and most have their heart pounding and jump

[MightyB]

"self defense" is bull****

how many people have been hit in the head with a brick and stompted by three guys who were just innocently walking down the street?

idk - but Gene and I were just discussing an article in the busted MMAists thread about a gun/pawn shop owner getting smacked in the head with a hammer in his store while he was talking to the distraction (woman posing as a customer). And those clips I posted looked pretty legit - lots of people getting jumped by any number of thugs - the second is a guy getting beat down in a parking garage while one drags his woman away.

[MightyB]

and I agree 100 % - SD is bullsh*t. So that goes back to my original question - is a bar fight self defense?

[lkfmdc]

idk - but Gene and I were just discussing an article in the busted MMAists thread about a gun/pawn shop owner getting smacked in the head with a hammer in his store while he was talking to the distraction (woman posing as a customer). And those clips I posted looked pretty legit - lots of people getting jumped by any number of thugs - the second is a guy getting beat down in a parking garage while one drags his woman away.

in your business you need SECURITY, especially if you are dealing in cash, jewlry or guns... not really "self defense"

As for a bunch of guys jumping you in a parking garage to "drag your woman away"... do you really think a self defense course is going to give you an easy out of that situation???

Where was the garage btw, detroit?

[MightyB]

You'd think Detroit -

Gladwin, about as far away from anywhere as you can find. Super small town surrounded by a lot of trees and farms. Big Amish community there too. It's an area where people leave there cars running and unlocked when they go into stores. Half the people don't even lock their homes.

[lkfmdc]

You'd think Detroit -

Gladwin, about as far away from anywhere as you can find. Super small town surrounded by a lot of trees and farms. Big Amish community there too. It's an area where people leave there cars running and unlocked when they go into stores. Half the people don't even lock their homes.

ah, but there is the problem, "bad people" know that the peopel there don't pay attention and are easy pickings, and likely the people you speak of were not aware and/or did something that set them up

[bawang]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t-9rviJCalE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CdAv5q1NlG4

[MightyB]

ah, but there is the problem, "bad people" know that the peopel there don't pay attention and are easy pickings, and likely the people you speak of were not aware and/or did something that set them up

true - but that's also a point in why SD is bullsh*t. You're right about them not really wanting to do any real training, and a sport fighter in theory should be able to put up a better fight. But violence is something that people should want to avoid 'cuz it's nasty. Too many Tony Jaa, Jackie Chan and Donnie Yen movies make people think otherwise.

[bawang]

true - but that's also a point in why SD is bullsh*t. You're right about them not really wanting to do any real training, and a sport fighter in theory should be able to put up a better fight. But violence is something that people should want to avoid 'cuz it's nasty. Too many Tony Jaa, Jackie Chan and Donnie Yen movies make people think otherwise.

nice people cant be fighters. you will never be successful.

[MightyB]

nice people cant be fighters. you will never be successful.

Martial athletes can be some of the nicest people you'll ever meet. Most of them aren't pr!cks or hot heads, they're totally normal and cool.

[bawang]

Martial athletes can be some of the nicest people you'll ever meet. Most of them aren't pr!cks or hot heads, they're totally normal and cool.

no, they aren't, son.

[lkfmdc]

true - but that's also a point in why SD is bullsh*t. You're right about them not really wanting to do any real training, and a sport fighter in theory should be able to put up a better fight. But violence is something that people should want to avoid 'cuz it's nasty. Too many Tony Jaa, Jackie Chan and Donnie Yen movies make people think otherwise.

point me to the detaisl fo this attack and I can give you a better opinion

violence is somethign people should want to avoid, and tehy simply don't

want to cut significantly your chances of violence? don't go where people drink in excess, but that means bars, sports venues, music concerts etc

come home early instead of late

take a taxi instead of public transportation if it is late

etc etc

[lkfmdc]

Martial athletes can be some of the nicest people you'll ever meet. Most of them aren't pr!cks or hot heads, they're totally normal and cool.

depends upon the combat sport

but in all I've known a fair share of douchebags

[Syn7]

Alpha males typically have a higher chance of coming off like jerks. Most fighters are alpha males. There are some exceptions, but the ratio is way in favor of the former.

That isn't to say all alphas are d1cks, it's just an odds thang.

I also feel I should mention that I make a distinction between martial artists and fighters. It's not a style thing, it's a mentality thing.

[lkfmdc]

Alpha males typically have a higher chance of coming off like jerks. Most fighters are alpha males. There are some exceptions, but the ratio is way in favor of the former.



you don't train fighters or deal with many of them do you?

[Syn7]

you don't train fighters or deal with many of them do you?

Train with. Mostly nice guys. Smattering of douchebags. Lots of ego, but that in itself isn't what makes some people intolerable. But it's mos def a different ratio than I see in other areas of my life.

[Lucas]

for someone who is morally upstanding, if the situation gets far enough that there is engagement, you have done what you can to try and avoid the conflict, but it happens anyway, be prepared to hurt someone or be hurt. this scenario is the worst case scenario. hopefully in most cases you can mitigate the instigation with talk, posture and diplomacy.

of course you have the degree in which you've been able to assess a situation...who is assaulting you, if they have friends, where you are, are there weapons involved, escape routes, do you have back up, etc.

all factors considered, when it comes down to trading blows or wrestling a stranger I have to assume that they will not hold back, they are willing to hurt me seriously, and that they are skilled at doing so.

this is pretty much the way i've always approached stranger conflict. in most all cases i've been able to get through without having to fight, but not always. there have been several times where it doesnt matter what you say or do, that person is intent on hurting you regardless of anything you can do to de-escelate the situation.

in that case i feel its best to attack without restraint. if you are in a situation where you are actually capable of restraining yourself with that person during a fight, then you severly outclass them and you screwed up in the first place letting things get that far, and after your dump or drop them a couple times they will stop or they will get help.

retaliation can be a real concern, but that comes down to where you are, who you're in an altercation with, and who you are. in most cases you won't be dealing with a gangbanger or a thug that's going to take it that far, but thats a judgment call at the time. again thats primarily going to come down to location in many cases.

when it comes down to it and you find yourself in that situation, its best to fight as if your life depended on it, because you never know, it just may. even if that person is not trying to kill you but just hurt you, accidents happen, people get carried away, and 'stray bullets' can kill.

anyone who has been in a 'fight for your life' situation knows the difference in the way you will behave and react and what you will be willing and able to do. i've been there once when i was very young and it changed my mindset towards violence for the rest of my life. you push me that far, i will do my best to make sure i'm the one that prevails.

[bawang]

Train with. Mostly nice guys. Smattering of douchebags. Lots of ego, but that in itself isn't what makes some people intolerable. But it's mos def a different ratio than I see in other areas of my life.

no fighter is a nice guy. unless hes a tomato can.

[Kellen Bassette]

no fighter is a nice guy. unless hes a tomato can.

They can be nice guys, but they tend to have another side and be very driven. People with a powerful drive tend to offend people without one.

[Kellen Bassette]

people come in for a "self defense class" and don't want to get sweaty, they don't want to get hit, they don't want someone on top of them on teh ground grabbing at them... and all that is exactly what will happen in "da real fight"


This is the problem. These people cannot be taught to fight.

[Kellen Bassette]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t-9rviJCalE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CdAv5q1NlG4

He's right about the psychological profile. This sort of thing is not for everyone.

People try to market martial arts as "something for everyone." This requires completely changing the context until it is unrecognizable.

[YouKnowWho]

This is the problem. These people cannot be taught to fight.

In another forum, someone said, "Why should you train hard? It will limit your social life, no time for anything else, no money benefit, ..."

[Lucas]

that person is obviously mentally handicapped

[Blacktiger]

people come in for a "self defense class" and don't want to get sweaty, they don't want to get hit, they don't want someone on top of them on teh ground grabbing at them... and all that is exactly what will happen in "da real fight"

I like to walk up to people in self defense seminars and just SCREAM AT THEM AS LOUD AS I CAN.... I haven't even touched them and most have their heart pounding and jump

This is right on the money!!!

[bawang]

They can be nice guys, but they tend to have another side and be very driven. People with a powerful drive tend to offend people without one.

theyre not nice inside. when you see people as pieces of meat, you learn to say what they want to hear. that's why theres ferocious fighters that come off as a "nice guy".

[pazman]

Training for self defense is waste of time.

Do you have a bully problem? A year of weight lifting and boxing lessons will fix that right up.

Live in a bad neighborhood? Move. Too poor to move? Learn how to program, make mad money, then move.

[RenDaHai]

I think there is maybe a cultural element here.

If you only train for the most extreme situation then I can see how this is largely pointless, because for one this will probably never happen to you and two, if it does it will probably be nothing like your training.

But confrontation and petty violence occurs all the time, every day. Every day there a little things where your training comes in useful. The fact some of you say self defence is a myth is really confusing to me..... That implies you have never experienced it. But that is hard to believe, every one gets in a fight now and again and the training is always useful. Most of the time it is something small and if you overreact to it you will make the situation much more dangerous. The way you deal with confrontation and violence has a huge impact on your character and so your whole life.

But then I think maybe it is a cultural thing. Maybe because of Guns in North America the stakes are higher and people do avoid confrontation more so when it does happen it is more extreme..... I don't know.

[Alex Córdoba]

Guys aren't you misleading people comparing terms such as self defense and war.

Apples and oranges Sheldon...

[Blacktiger]

Just watch this and save your cash...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SbpV5xCkpTU

[bawang]

self defence is all about the obsession with giant black men waiting to ambush you. fear the bbc.

[Kellen Bassette]

Guys aren't you misleading people comparing terms such as self defense and war.

Apples and oranges Sheldon...

No. People who say the martial arts were developed for self defense are misleading people.

[Kellen Bassette]

The fact some of you say self defence is a myth is really confusing to me..... That implies you have never experienced it.


The point wasn't that nobody really ever defends themselves, the point was MA were not originally about what we think of as self defense.

Also, that what is taught as self defense really may not be....

[YouKnowWho]

If you only train for the most extreme situation then I can see how this is largely pointless, ...
Let me ask a simple question. In self defense, do you punch at your opponent's face?

If the answer is

- yes, will you punch differently in self defense than in fighting?
- no, what other techniques do you use to take care your self defense problem?

[RenDaHai]

The point wasn't that nobody really ever defends themselves, the point was MA were not originally about what we think of as self defense.

Also, that what is taught as self defense really may not be....

But what do you mean by that? I have defended myself, I am sure most people on this forum have. Lots of people do it and all the time. Mostly it is in small ways. I think you are just thinking of very extreme situations.

'MA were not originally....' This is a foolish statement. Of course many martial arts were about self defence, and many created specifically for that purpose. I don't know where this idea comes from.

China for example has thousands of different folk cultures that include fighting exercises. We classify them all as MA, but that is just a label to make things easier, it does not change what they are. They are many many different folk cultures that happen to include some similar themes. They all include their own unique things too. Amongst those we classify as WuShu there are 3 major types; Soldier, Civilian, Spiritual. This is long before the stupid 'internal, external' classification, and this is in China. Civilian MA are only about self defence. Soldier are only about military application and spiritual are MA like Shaolin and Wudang who's primary purpose is cultivation.



No. People who say the martial arts were developed for self defense are misleading people.


But how do you not see this is Moronic. IF Wushu was only War Arts then what was passed down would have been only military strategies like the spear wall that bawang posted. Group formations and training methods. Sure there is this. But the fact most of Wushu that is passed down is 1 on 1 empty hand technique implies heavily that it is intended for self defence.

[YouKnowWho]

But the fact most of Wushu that is passed down is 1 on 1 empty hand technique implies heavily that it is intended for self defence.

When you swing your Guan Dao, do you have "intention" to cut your opponent's body in half? If you do that, is it self defense?

This look like "killing" to me.

http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XNjkxMjkwNzY=.html

[RenDaHai]

When you swing your Guan Dao, do you have "intention" to cut your opponent's body in half? If you do that, is it self defense?


Yeah, if you are in ancient China transporting a cart full of silver taels and have just been ambushed by bandits, then that is self defence. For most of us these days thankfully it is less extreme.

You don't fight against a real person like its the ring, you take every opportunity to let the fight end. Even in war Sun tzu says to always allow the enemy an exit.

[Drake]

Military strategy is about overwhelming power. You typically want a 3:1 ratio against any defending element.

Typical rule is, if you are in a fair fight, you are doing something wrong.

[-N-]

When you swing your Guan Dao, do you have "intention" to cut your opponent's body in half? If you do that, is it self defense?

This look like "killing" to me.

http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XNjkxMjkwNzY=.html

This looks like dance to me.

I do not see intent or force in the attacks.

Many of spear's attacks were deliberately off target and without penetration or piercing speed.

Dai do's attacks also had no intent or force. There was no body weight thrown into the cuts. Attacks were slow and deliberately held back.

There is a way to do two man weapons more realistically.

[bawang]

When you swing your Guan Dao, do you have "intention" to cut your opponent's body in half? If you do that, is it self defense?

This look like "killing" to me.

http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XNjkxMjkwNzY=.html

this is circus clown toothpick spear from opera.

this is real two man form
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wX82siCRQyk

[Kellen Bassette]

But what do you mean by that? I have defended myself, I am sure most people on this forum have. Lots of people do it and all the time. Mostly it is in small ways. I think you are just thinking of very extreme situations.


I'm not talking about particular situations. You seem to think I mean nobody defends themselves in real life. This is not what I'm saying at all. I'm saying the purpose of Quan really is not about practicing for defending yourself in a bar/street altercation, ect...

At least that was not the intent...I'm trying to avoid the Kung Fu is all things to all people discussion, that everything always digresses to...I'm talking about empty hand boxing....



'MA were not originally....' This is a foolish statement. Of course many martial arts were about self defence, and many created specifically for that purpose. I don't know where this idea comes from.


Gong Fu (empty hand), Muay Thai, Bokh, and other arts were exercises and training methods used in ancient military to condition and harden troops, to strengthen their spirit. The real fighting was done with weapons and strategies of the times. The spirit and mindset of this training is not compatible with mindset of modern ideas of self defense. Modern mindset of "self defense" is not conducive to teaching someone to fight for realz.

Fundamental Gong Fu training and sparring/sport fighting serve to harden the individual and create a "warrior spirit." (I don't like to use that term, but I believe this was the philosophy and a common thread in Asian MA.)

When old style military methods become outdated, people confuse demonstration, theater and ritual with fighting. Kung Fu is marketed for "self defense" to stay relevant as old military methods have fallen out of favor. The West never understood the origins to begin with; and have an especially skewed perception of what Kung Fu (Chinese empty hand boxing) was/is.




But how do you not see this is Moronic. IF Wushu was only War Arts then what was passed down would have been only military strategies like the spear wall that bawang posted. Group formations and training methods. Sure there is this. But the fact most of Wushu that is passed down is 1 on 1 empty hand technique implies heavily that it is intended for self defence.

But I believe it is not intended for self defense. I believe it is intended for hardening and strengthening a man. Making him capable of fighting another man. This is a different mindset than "learn to fight so we don't have to," "protect yourself from muggers," ect.

It may seem like I'm splitting hairs, but I believe the distinction is important. I believe the two methods produce two very different mindsets; which lead to two very different outcomes.

[bigopen]

I am becoming increasingly uncomfortable with the term "self defense."

It's used across the board to sell martial arts, but I doubt it really has much to do, historically, with traditional war arts. We all know "self defense" has long been used to persuade Western parents into putting their kids into a MA program, but are we drinking our own Kool Aid?

If you think about it, "self defense" is almost counter intuitive to the mindset of fighting. The military drills, conditioning and desensitizing of orthodox Gong Fu seems awfully far removed from anti-bullying and protecting yourself from rapists. I'm not saying those are bad things, but are we really to believe that comes from the same art as forging the body and mind into a weapon?

What kind of person is going to start a street fight with me? More likely than not it will be an Alpha male type. It will probably be an aggressive person that feels they are stronger than me. Putting yourself on defense starts you off with a losing strategy...you really need a mindset, not unlike the aggressors, to deal with this type of aggression.

Sure, it's a cliche that the best defense is a good offense, but do you really think your going to deflect and parry your way to victory? Going to save it all up for the one big finish? The attacker, is generally in a better position than the defender.

I think if you look at it objectively, the whole "self defense" thing isn't really what the tradition was.

'Self defence' is what ever you interpret it as. English is so limited as a language when it comes to things like this; we need either a new word or a longer description of the subject that you want to discuss.

I've talked my way out of many situations that in other cases would have ended in fighting (I worked as a nightclub manager & security for two years), but it somehow isn't seen as 'self defence'.

If I'd gone to some reality based training like krav or kapap etc etc I would have probably been drilled with a routine for confrontation that would have very quickly put the situation into the 'fight' context. As I've said in other posts, unless you are aware of the very subtle changes in atmosphere, body language and posturing etc, you won't see it coming.

If you are a mouthy ******* when you are drunk and keep getting beaten up, you don't need self defence, you need to train In the art of not being a mouthy *******.

There's nothing wrong with many of the applications you find in TCMA. You see them mirrored in the reality based stuff like Krav because they work. The difference is that those guys pay to practice eye gouging and have balls in their face for an hour, I pay to see my friends and teacher and learn a bit more about TCMA. If TCMA classes scaled back the ji ben gong, qi gong, stretching etc and went in to straight reality based scenarios with the more effective applications in low light, multiple opponents etc, there's no reason why it wouldn't be just as effective as a form of 'self defence' per say.

BUT the catch is if you are at reality based, high aggression classes three times per week, reinforcing a huge fight response, whether you like it or not your body language will begin to change. The Chinese call it 'Flaring up the Liver' - The look in your eyes, your build, your walk, even your smell (laughs expected). You will start to come across in a slightly different way and THAT WILL attract attention. You think that you will escape the cycle by training but by doing so you just encourage it more. It's a very fine balance. That's real Kung Fu; finding that balance and escaping that cycle of victim turned aggressor. Do some research on how quickly you could mess your own life up by killing someone who just wanted some money for drugs or food because you went into ((((BEAST MODE)))) when they pulled out a knife or gun.

So in my opinion self defence is pretty much a nonsense term.

Work on your mind and let the rest play out. Amitoufo!

[Kellen Bassette]

fear the bbc.

http://sky-today.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/1922-British-Broadcasting-Corporation-BBC-forms.png

I am terrified of the British Broadcasting Corporation.

[Kellen Bassette]

BUT the catch is if you are at reality based, high aggression classes three times per week, reinforcing a huge fight response, whether you like it or not your body language will begin to change. The Chinese call it 'Flaring up the Liver' - The look in your eyes, your build, your walk, even your smell (laughs expected). You will start to come across in a slightly different way and THAT WILL attract attention.


Yes, I think you are right here.

That smell, by the way, is ball sweat. :p

[YouKnowWho]

Let me ask a simple question. In self defense, do you punch at your opponent's face?

If the answer is

- yes, will you punch differently in self defense than in fighting?
- no, what other techniques do you use to take care your self defense problem?

Do anybody like to answer this question?

Also, in court, if you told the judge, "I didn't kill him. I just help him to go to heaven." Will you get less sentence for that?

[Kellen Bassette]

Do anybody like to answer this question?

People want to make it more different than it is, so they can justify not training in a realistic fashion.

[YouKnowWho]

People want to make it more different than it is, so they can justify not training in a realistic fashion.

Those self defense guys assume that their problem is always in street. Since most of the street guys don't train MA, They can assume anything should work.

If you assume that your enemies is boxer, MT guy, wrestler, MMA guy, ... you will need to train a complete different set of skills.

Do self defense people train "single leg counters" or do they just train "how to break a wrist grip"? I assume they will never train "single leg" because it will be considered as "offense".

[lkfmdc]

on a related topic

it is WELL KNOWN in NYC that many of the British ladies here are just fascinated in in love with the BBC...

I leave it to you to decipher

[-N-]

this is circus clown toothpick spear from opera.

this is real two man form
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wX82siCRQyk

Good usage there, especially towards the end.

The other month we made the students drill similar intercept, expulsion, hand attacks.

They were learning a form, but didn't have the right feel and timing of the weapon, so we made them practice the usage against each other.

[FullPotentialMA]

If you think about it, "self defense" is almost counter intuitive to the mindset of fighting. The military drills, conditioning and desensitizing of orthodox Gong Fu seems awfully far removed from anti-bullying and protecting yourself from rapists. I'm not saying those are bad things, but are we really to believe that comes from the same art as forging the body and mind into a weapon?
....
Sure, it's a cliche that the best defense is a good offense, but do you really think your going to deflect and parry your way to victory? Going to save it all up for the one big finish? The attacker, is generally in a better position than the defender.

I think if you look at it objectively, the whole "self defense" thing isn't really what the tradition was.

I respectfully disagree. Self defense (as well as protection of one's master from harm, i.e., body-guarding) are some of the key tenants of martial arts, be in Kung Fu, Karate or others. 99% of the "trick" is to not get into a situation where force is needed. If we look at modern equivalents, the Secret Service spends a lot of time strategizing how to protect a VIP -- where can the threats from from? What kind of assets can we bring to bear to be in a superior position? etc. I.e., a lot of the "self defense" is mental, and a lot of it is in the awareness of risk potential.

Protecting oneself, or one's loves ones is not that much different. Being aware (i.e., not being in my smartphone, SMSing with my friends while I am walking in a dark alley in a bad area of town late at night) and looking for strategic force multipliers (e.g., a close exit in a bar; a shield I can use for hiding if shots are fired; an improvised weapon I can use if the fight is already going) are key. Especially the awareness part.

[Kellen Bassette]

I respectfully disagree.

You don't have to disagree respectfully, no-one else here does...:p

[RenDaHai]

I am terrified of the British Broadcasting Corporation.

Me too, they have a horrendous left socialist bias which infects the minds of a nation.

[RenDaHai]

But I believe it is not intended for self defense. I believe it is intended for hardening and strengthening a man.

What is it about? Why do they pass down these skills in a Wushu clan? Safety.

Safety. Safety from Injury and illness and the ravages of time through conditioning of the body. Safety from the passions of the self by conditioning of the mind through meditation. Safety from evil men through the martial arts. Safety from Karma by right action. Safety from the ire of others by correct ethics. Safety from punishment by adherence to the laws. Safety, this is the art of the character 'Wu'. This is why it is passed down in civilian homes. Safety is the most important thing for a good life. This is why Wushu is a life skill. Self defence is of course a part of this.

These things are as important today as they ever were. Some things we can modify with the changing times, this is why much of the ancient warfare techniques have not survived so well. But two ordinary people who have a disagreement and fight, that hasn't changed much. Many of the techniques in a style are specifically for this situation. They have stayed the same.

A mistake a lot of people make is to consider these Wushu styles as 'Martial Art'. This is a poor translation. These Clans pass down a collection of skills, not all of the skills are related to Martial Arts. They are a collection of 'Gong' skills. To consider them as a 'Martial art' is not correct as that is only part of the skills passed down.

[Kellen Bassette]

A mistake a lot of people make is to consider these Wushu styles as 'Martial Art'. This is a poor translation. These Clans pass down a collection of skills, not all of the skills are related to Martial Arts. They are a collection of 'Gong' skills. To consider them as a 'Martial art' is not correct as that is only part of the skills passed down.


I do agree with you here, many Gongs are not directly related to martial skill, they may benefit it indirectly, by making you stronger, more agile, more athletic in general, but are really not necessary or intended for combat.

[ShaolinDan]

http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=49825

:rolleyes::)

[SPJ]

Use common sense.

Use a tool. Pick up something and use it.

We sharpen a rock and throw a rock to defend our self against animals with claws and teeth since the stone age.

Defense is a common sense and not a myth.

:)

[David Jamieson]

You can only help yourself through action and you can help others by letting them know what actions work.

Awareness? don't text and drive? Don't text and walk? Don't chat on the phone while driving, don't space out while in public area, don't go to late night clubs filled with drunk and ornery folk, etc, etc.

Yeah, unfortunately at least 50% of us are stupid as rocks, feel entitled and will do absolutely nothing to ensure that our personal safety is optimized and if anything goes wrong, it is almost never our fault.

pfft. Let the Darwin awards be handed out regularly!

[Kellen Bassette]

Use common sense.

Use a tool. Pick up something and use it.

We sharpen a rock and throw a rock to defend our self against animals with claws and teeth since the stone age.

Defense is a common sense and not a myth.



I think I've mentioned about 5 times now that this thread was about the intended purpose of Gong Fu training....not whether or not anyone has actually ever used martial arts to defend themselves....

Oh well.....

[YouKnowWho]

the intended purpose of Gong Fu training....

When I was 7 years old, I used to put a small rock among my 3 fingers. I squeezed it everyday and hopefully someday I would be able to squeeze that small rock into powder.

My "intend" was one day I would be able to dig my 3 fingers into my opponent's bone. Whether I could go to jail for that or not, I just didn't think about that far when I was that young.

[Kellen Bassette]

Whether I could go to jail for that or not, I just didn't think about that far when I was that young.

You can't get hung up on semantics...;)

[RenDaHai]

I think I've mentioned about 5 times now that this thread was about the intended purpose of Gong Fu training....not whether or not anyone has actually ever used martial arts to defend themselves....

Oh well.....

Well then here is your answer;

Look at the 'Gong' skills themselves.

All of you here know some Kung fu right? Look at the techniques passed to you. Do they look like techniques designed for large battlefield engagements? Do they look like they were intended to strengthen the body? Do they look like they were intended for assassination? Do they look like they were intended for a ring match? Do they look like they were intended for a self defence scenario? Do they look like they were intended for spiritual cultivation? Do they look like they were intended for performance?

Look at the techniques themselves. They all have their place. An old style may have skills for ALL of the things above. A Wushu style is NOT ONE thing. It is a collection of skills handed down for generations. Skills that make life safer and longer and better to live. That is why they were kept and passed on.


SO what is Gong fu training for? Of course some of it is for self defence, that is clear by looking at the actual techniques. Of course some of it is for strengthening, of course some of it is for cultivation, etc. etc.

Of the things passed down what do you practice most? That is what your style will become.

[YouKnowWho]

Do they look like they were intended for assassination?
What do you thing the following training is for. It was used to kill someone without making a sound. I don't see any self defense flavor in this training.

http://imageshack.us/a/img861/159/beggercarrydog.jpg

http://imageshack.us/a/img213/7828/headlock.jpg

Some training just have nothing to do with self defense no matter how hard that you may try to link it to it.

http://imageshack.us/a/img405/4333/3o9f.jpg

[bawang]

SO what is Gong fu training for? Of course some of it is for self defence, that is clear by looking at the actual techniques. Of course some of it is for strengthening, of course some of it is for cultivation, etc. etc.

Of the things passed down what do you practice most? That is what your style will become.

the goal of kung fu is to transform you mentally. that mental transformation cannot be reached by doing forms or knife defence drills. kung fu cannot be achieved by technique.

the mental threshold that leads to enlightenment and personal transformation is achieved through bitter toil and labor, misery, pain, train until depression over and over again. not by meditating on the esoteric colonic interpretations of xiaohongquan variation #4 from wangbang village.

out of the 72 skills of shaolin, half is weight lifting. other half is hitting things and spacial coordination. how many of the gongs have you actually done? compared to how many forms you learned?

when you cross that threshold, you couldn't give a fuk about self defence. there will be no well endowed black man haunting your dreams.

[RenDaHai]

Some training just have nothing to do with self defense no matter how hard that you may try to link it to it.





.......Do they look like they were intended for assassination......

Look at the techniques themselves. They all have their place. An old style may have skills for ALL of the things above.


I said there are skills for ALL these things. It is not about ONE thing. There are a collection of skills.

Clearly when you look at the techniques in a style they are not ALL for Self defence, but they are also clearly not ALL for Warfare. Nor are they ALL for any one thing.

Definitely there is self defence there as well. Why does Shaolin practice with farm tools. Would you go to war with these or are they to defend your village from raiders?

[RenDaHai]

the goal of kung fu is to transform you mentally.

when you cross that threshold, you couldn't give a fuk about self defence. there will be no well endowed black man haunting your dreams.

You do not need to tell me this.

In a previous thread I was the one saying Gong Fu was for transformation and you were opposing. Don't throw that one back at me.

Never the less analyse the techniques themselves. Clearly they are not all for one purpose. Some individual Gongs have their specific use.

Is the Skill of night walking used in ring combat, or is it as it sounds for sneaking around at night? Would an army go to war using the GuiZhang walking stick or was it a walking stick that doubled as a self defence weapon? Is Ba Duan Jin a military strategy for battle formation or is it for strengthening the body?

Things have their place, if you try and say they are ALL for war art, or all for any one thing you will mis apply them.

[YouKnowWho]

the goal of kung fu is to transform you mentally.

You are very deep on this. To me, the goal of Kung Fu is to "use your fist to transform your opponent's face". :D

[bawang]

You do not need to tell me this.

In a previous thread I was the one saying Gong Fu was for transformation and you were opposing. Don't throw that one back at me.
you think gong fu is to transform you into an enlightened higher being, who do forms on rooftop and fight wild animals for Buddha. I mean a different kind of transformation.



Is the Skill of night walking used in ring combat, or is it as it sounds for sneaking around at night?
you kung fu hobby warriors, always, ALWAYS talk about the easiest stupidest gongs. like punching candles or swinging a coin by your ear or some sh1t.

how about you try training hanging golden bell (hanging leg raise)? about how reverse hanging golden bell(hanging situp)? how about pulling tree skill, hug a 200 pound concrete box and lift it up 10 times? how about holding the universe ball, hold a 200 pound stone ball and walk with it? how about eagle wing (shoulder raise)? how about parting water (back delts)? thousand pound crusher (squat press)? reverse iron ox plows field (bench press)? bawang raises cauldron (shoulder press)? erlang carries mountain (squat)?

whats that? all these gongs can be done at a gym with a barbell? and needs hard work? fuk that, ill go contemplate on the pubic hairs of shi deyang, and how awesome he is. then ill jack off to his yinshou gun dvd.

[RenDaHai]

you kung fu hobby warriors, always, ALWAYS talk about the easiest stupidest gongs.



The skill of nightwalking is not easy at all. It requires incredible hip flexibility and lower back strength and flexibility. It is not as simple as going to the gym and isolating one muscle group. It doesn't just give you strength and flexibility it gives you the skill of walking silently in low profile. Now since the invention of electricity this may not be as useful as it once was. But I guarantee you will find it hard.

Eagles wings is not as simple as just shoulder raises with weight. It is both striking and lifting power. YOu cannot get into a strong stance and simply lift the weights, you must strike them into the lifted position and raise stance simultaneously. When you first try this you will feel like you have ripped all your muscles. It is effectively 'throwing' weight, not lifting.

Parting water you cannot isolate the delts in an excercise because it is as much about passing that strength through the wrist and fingers.

Pulling a tree you cannot lift a 200 pound weight because it is supposed to be an unliftable weight, so it is a tension excercise rather than actually lifting.

[bawang]

The skill of nightwalking is not easy at all. It requires incredible hip flexibility and lower back strength and flexibility. It is not as simple as going to the gym and isolating one muscle group. It doesn't just give you strength and flexibility it gives you the skill of walking silently in low profile. Now since the invention of electricity this may not be as useful as it once was. But I guarantee you will find it hard.

Eagles wings is not as simple as just shoulder raises with weight. It is both striking and lifting power. YOu cannot get into a strong stance and simply lift the weights, you must strike them into the lifted position and raise stance simultaneously. When you first try this you will feel like you have ripped all your muscles. It is effectively 'throwing' weight, not lifting.

Parting water you cannot isolate the delts in an excercise because it is as much about passing that strength through the wrist and fingers.

I do all these gongs erryday FOO. do u walk the walk?


It is not as simple as going to the gym and isolating one muscle group.
LOL "to build powerful strength, one must lift the weight over ten thousand times" - shaolin fist poem LOL

LOL "each external gong targets a specific muscle group. for small tools, the arms. for large weights, the legs and torso" LOL

[RenDaHai]

LOL "to build powerful strength, one must lift the weight over ten thousand times" - shaolin fist poem LOL

Why are you laughing, at what point did I say you don't have to do it 10,000 times. The exercises are not as simply replicated as you make out.

You do not learn a backflip by just exercising the individual muscles, you must do the movement to. This is true for all the moves.

[bawang]

Why are you laughing, at what point did I say you don't have to do it 10,000 times. The exercises are not as simply replicated as you make out.


all shaolin external exercises are simple. your ego doesn't want it to be. ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

my point is, you do not train a single one of them. ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

[RenDaHai]

all shaolin external exercises are simple. your ego doesn't want it to be. ( ͡º ͜ʖ ͡º)

They are simple, very simple. But you can still do them wrong. All of Shaolin Gong Fu are simple skills, they just require a huge investment in time and effort. There are no secrets to the methods other than dedication.

[bawang]

They are simple, very simple. But you can still do them wrong. All of Shaolin Gong Fu are simple skills, they just require a huge investment in time and effort. There are no secrets to the methods other than dedication.

and if you actually trained them, you wouldn't be wondering about goal of kung fu. because you would know.

[RenDaHai]

and if you actually trained them, you wouldn't be wondering about goal of kung fu. because you would know.

I have never wondered about the Goal of Gong Fu. I have gone into detail on it before.

This thread says self defence is a myth. Looking at the skills 'Gongs' in many styles, looking at the techniques passed down clearly there are many that ARE designed for self defence and NOT for battle. But there are some for battle too, and some for assassination and for many other things.

Gong Fu I have described enough before. Wushu I have described on this thread.

Is Self defence a myth? No. Are there any parts of Wushu designed for self defence? Of course there are, simply look at the techniques.

[bawang]

I have never wondered about the Goal of Gong Fu. I have gone into detail on it before.

This thread says self defence is a myth. Looking at the skills 'Gongs' in many styles, looking at the techniques passed down clearly there are many that ARE designed for self defence and NOT for battle. But there are some for battle too, and some for assassination and for many other things.

Gong Fu I have described enough before. Wushu I have described on this thread.

Is Self defence a myth? No. Are there any parts of Wushu designed for self defence? Of course there are, simply look at the techniques.

you talk about technique, you talk about forms, about ancient battles, ninjas, and backflips. if you pick up a weight and lift it, you wouldn't be living in fantasy. kung fu will be a reality.

[RenDaHai]

if you pick up a weight and lift it, you wouldn't be living in fantasy.

Ahaha, you think lifting weights is hard? You try meditating for 6-7 hours a day, every day for months on end.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Ahaha, you think lifting weights is hard? You try meditating for 6-7 hours a day, every day for months on end.

I do that everyday, its called sleep.
:D

[sanjuro_ronin]

I am becoming increasingly uncomfortable with the term "self defense."

It's used across the board to sell martial arts, but I doubt it really has much to do, historically, with traditional war arts. We all know "self defense" has long been used to persuade Western parents into putting their kids into a MA program, but are we drinking our own Kool Aid?

If you think about it, "self defense" is almost counter intuitive to the mindset of fighting. The military drills, conditioning and desensitizing of orthodox Gong Fu seems awfully far removed from anti-bullying and protecting yourself from rapists. I'm not saying those are bad things, but are we really to believe that comes from the same art as forging the body and mind into a weapon?

What kind of person is going to start a street fight with me? More likely than not it will be an Alpha male type. It will probably be an aggressive person that feels they are stronger than me. Putting yourself on defense starts you off with a losing strategy...you really need a mindset, not unlike the aggressors, to deal with this type of aggression.

Sure, it's a cliche that the best defense is a good offense, but do you really think your going to deflect and parry your way to victory? Going to save it all up for the one big finish? The attacker, is generally in a better position than the defender.

I think if you look at it objectively, the whole "self defense" thing isn't really what the tradition was.

Don't use the term "self-defence" anymore.

Self protection is better IMO.
In short, what we are doing is, quite simply, learning to fight.

[bawang]

Ahaha, you think lifting weights is hard? You try meditating for 6-7 hours a day, every day for months on end.

I do both. because it is required of me. I don't pick and choose, I don't make my demands on shaolin kung fu. shaolin kung fu demands of me. I don't change tradition, tradition changes me.

that is why you have failed, my son.

[David Jamieson]

Meditation for 6-7 hours a day for months on end is not really doable by people who go to school or work.

Meditative state of mind is what's important. If you can give even 15 minutes a day to meditation, it is good for you. :)

These things aren't something you wear as a badge either. lol
Just do them. NO point in arguing about it. Just take it or leave it.
Don't try to substitute personal experience for reality either.
Should work out... :)

[Syn7]

Don't try to substitute personal experience for reality either.

Word......

[Jimbo]

Meditation for 6-7 hours a day for months on end is not really doable by people who go to school or work.

Meditative state of mind is what's important. If you can give even 15 minutes a day to meditation, it is good for you. :)

These things aren't something you wear as a badge either. lol
Just do them. NO point in arguing about it. Just take it or leave it.

Very true.

If the purpose of meditation is to transcend the ego, then doesn't over-concern over the length of one's meditation sessions as compared to others defeat its very purpose in the first place? Being able to go 'deep' into that state for even 10 minutes is far preferable to much longer sessions where such a state may or may not be reached or maintained.

Also, expanding on DJ's first point, it is MUCH easier to live with a newfound spirituality when one is secluded away from the pressures and responsibilities of making a living, etc. The true test of what you've gained isn't how you can maintain it in isolation in a temple (or ashram, retreat, cave, etc.) setting, but how you can maintain it under the pressures of everyday life.

[Drake]

Ahaha, you think lifting weights is hard? You try meditating for 6-7 hours a day, every day for months on end.

That's called being a lazy *****.

[Kellen Bassette]

In short, what we are doing is, quite simply, learning to fight.

You never disappoint me. :)

[Kellen Bassette]

But then I think maybe it is a cultural thing. Maybe because of Guns in North America the stakes are higher and people do avoid confrontation more so when it does happen it is more extreme..... I don't know.

Guns have nothing to do with the violence in our culture...this is confusing cause and effect...

http://auburnpub.com/ap/state/syracuse-teen-charged-with-beating-man-at-store/article_67f7d582-485e-59ef-b2e3-e746c0e40670.html


Yesterday's local news....

[RenDaHai]

If the purpose of meditation is to transcend the ego, then doesn't over-concern over the length of one's meditation sessions as compared to others defeat its very purpose in the first place?

Please bear in mind all my posts are simply a reaction or answer to other posts. I didn't start a thread saying 'Ha, I meditate more than you all'. BaWang was making it sound like lifting weights is the hardest thing to do. It is a reaction statement. In it I did not actually even mention myself doing it, this is something many monks typically do. This is a part of Kung Fu training which I think is more difficult than lifting weights, how do I get this point across without violating some preconceived ideas of meditation others have and actually talking about it?


That's called being a lazy *****.

I see.

[Syn7]

"Difficult" is a matter of perspective. What's hard for one may be easy(or less hard) for another.


Don't try to substitute personal experience for reality either.

[wiz cool c]

every martial art teacher,teaching martial arts for self defense purpose will tell their student, try to avoid a situation at any cost. but that doesn't help you if someone actual attacks you. if you are used to having different body shapes and sizes,ages and genders,grabbing you kicking you attacking you,in practice,for sure it will help you deal with that pressure if it should happen for real. if you are used to actually hitting vulnerable targets,using every day objects as weapons gaining distance then escaping.


nothing in life is guaranteed, but if this type of training didn't help,for example why would drivers ed start you off with a fake steering wheel before having you drive a real car. i had people tell me a video i recently posted on women's self defense is useless,that ninjutsu is useless for self defense. for this i mention,one of my old teachers a man about 5 foot 7,bit stocking but not very big ,was a rikers island correctional officer. when i asked him if he ever used this stuff he said daily. what job sees more violence then a riykers island prison guard. a fellow student of mine at the time a green belt, a beautiful young lady defended herself against three men in central park that attacked her. every week students would come into the school with stories,this stuff really works.


so let the nay sayers,be nay sayers,but training in a self defense system,does increase one's odds to survive a danerguos encounter.

[bawang]

BaWang was making it sound like lifting weights is the hardest thing to do. It is a reaction statement. In it I did not actually even mention myself doing it, this is something many monks typically do. This is a part of Kung Fu training which I think is more difficult than lifting weights


https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=cCRs9ptAXlI#t=134
LOL SO EASY LOL

[sanjuro_ronin]

You never disappoint me. :)

Ah dude, people can sugar coated all they want and add all the superfluous "spiritual values" they want, in the end the truth is we are learning to hurt another human being.

[bawang]

Ah dude, people can sugar coated all they want and add all the superfluous "spiritual values" they want, in the end the truth is we are learning to hurt another human being.

there is spiritual value in punching a man in the face.

*stroke beard slowly

[BigPandaBear]

I am becoming increasingly uncomfortable with the term "self defense."

It's used across the board to sell martial arts, but I doubt it really has much to do, historically, with traditional war arts. We all know "self defense" has long been used to persuade Western parents into putting their kids into a MA program, but are we drinking our own Kool Aid?

If you think about it, "self defense" is almost counter intuitive to the mindset of fighting. The military drills, conditioning and desensitizing of orthodox Gong Fu seems awfully far removed from anti-bullying and protecting yourself from rapists. I'm not saying those are bad things, but are we really to believe that comes from the same art as forging the body and mind into a weapon?

What kind of person is going to start a street fight with me? More likely than not it will be an Alpha male type. It will probably be an aggressive person that feels they are stronger than me. Putting yourself on defense starts you off with a losing strategy...you really need a mindset, not unlike the aggressors, to deal with this type of aggression.

Sure, it's a cliche that the best defense is a good offense, but do you really think your going to deflect and parry your way to victory? Going to save it all up for the one big finish? The attacker, is generally in a better position than the defender.

I think if you look at it objectively, the whole "self defense" thing isn't really what the tradition was.

Kung Fu was created to protect oneself from animals and bandits. So the core of Kung Fu (and other martial arts) IS protection or self defense.

The problem is how a lot of schools (and self defense seminars) train their students. Its simply unrealistic, archaic, and downright silly. Doing a traditional Broad Sword form sure looks nice, but what's the practicality of that? Of course, we all do MA for different purposes. However, if the purpose is to protect yourself from being attacked, I don't believe that learning a sword form is the right way to go. I won't even get into how a lot of Kung Fu and Karate schools don't teach proper striking techniques. Women who practice these arts in the hopes of stopping a larger assailant from assaulting them is in for an unfortunate reality when the rubber hits the road.

I know many here will disagree, but I believe the best representation of modern MA is in the sport realm. A martial athlete is simply a better fighter than a martial artist. Athletes in general are better at physical expression than a non-athlete. Anyone wonder why boxers and wrestlers tend to eat martial artists for breakfast? I have no doubt that Rhonda Rousey is more capable of defending herself than a woman who does self defense class twice a week for a half an hour. That's simply reality.

TDLR: If you want to learn self defense and fighting, do a martial sport. If you want to learn culture, historical arts, and personal spiritual growth, learn a martial art. BTW, personal spiritual growth does have self defense applications. In the end, it all depends on what you want as practitioner.

[Kellen Bassette]

I know many here will disagree, but I believe the best representation of modern MA is in the sport realm. A martial athlete is simply a better fighter than a martial artist. Athletes in general are better at physical expression than a non-athlete. Anyone wonder why boxers and wrestlers tend to eat martial artists for breakfast? I have no doubt that Rhonda Rousey is more capable of defending herself than a woman who does self defense class twice a week for a half an hour. That's simply reality.


There's also many here that will agree. Also, if you want to test your TMA skill I think there is no better setting than in a sport fight. You don't have to train modern sport to compete, they'll let you jump in. :cool:

[Sima Rong]

In my last Shaolin class, we trained doing armbreak techniques on a straight arm. In the vast majority of self defense situations, if I broke someone's arm I would get arrested, particularly if it was from just a grab. 'Sorry about that, you were just going to push me a bit eh? Oh dear!' Of course, learning the move and being able to do it under stress are quite different things too...And straightening someone's arm is not always easy either...

[Kellen Bassette]

In my last Shaolin class, we trained doing armbreak techniques on a straight arm. In the vast majority of self defense situations, if I broke someone's arm I would get arrested, particularly if it was from just a grab. 'Sorry about that, you were just going to push me a bit eh? Oh dear!' Of course, learning the move and being able to do it under stress are quite different things too...And straightening someone's arm is not always easy either...

If you grab my wrist I can do lots of cool Chi na stuff to you. Trouble is, who in the world starts a fight by grabbing your wrist? If you get in a fighting stance and put your guard up it becomes near impossible to pull off a lot of that Chi na stuff live.

Now if we are ground fighting it's a different story, but then Chi na is BJJ not KF. :p

I think most of the classical, standing Chi na works well when you are quickly applying it to an unsuspecting person, not in a one on one fight scenario....which leads me to believe, it was not designed for self defense...

[BigPandaBear]

In my last Shaolin class, we trained doing armbreak techniques on a straight arm. In the vast majority of self defense situations, if I broke someone's arm I would get arrested, particularly if it was from just a grab. 'Sorry about that, you were just going to push me a bit eh? Oh dear!' Of course, learning the move and being able to do it under stress are quite different things too...And straightening someone's arm is not always easy either...

One of the benefits of Judo (and subsequently BJJ) is that its creator instituted randori. Randori is the greatest invention of grappling/locking MA ever conceived. It allows the practitioner to perform locks, chokes, and holds at full intensity without actually harming your partner.

So a skilled Judoka/BJJer doesn't need to break your arm. They can just pin you to the ground, or put you to sleep. Their training methodology teaches them how to perform these movements against a trained and resisting opponent constantly. So when they use it on an untrained resisting opponent, its actually EASIER to apply.

I also like the fact that Judo and Bjj teaches its students how to fight on their back, or on their hands and knees. This is very important, especially for women who are more than likely to face an assailant trying to get on top of them. The fact that Judo and Bjj schools tend to be filled with big burly men only increases the self defense benefits for female practitioners. If you can choke out that 250lb blackbelt in your class, you'll probably be able to choke out your out of shape boyfriend who had one too many beers.

I love TCMA, but we have some catching up to do. Fortunately there are teachers out there embracing more modern methods for self defense purposes.



There's also many here that will agree. Also, if you want to test your TMA skill I think there is no better setting than in a sport fight. You don't have to train modern sport to compete, they'll let you jump in. :cool:

Good to hear! :) I often get discouraged when I see TMA schools refusing to let their students cross-train or study other arts. Meanwhile, the MMA schools freely cross train with each other, and constantly improve their arts. We need to stop thinking that cross training dillutes our styles, and recognize that a lot of our "pure" TMA styles are the products of cross training.

[Drake]

If you grab my wrist I can do lots of cool Chi na stuff to you. Trouble is, who in the world starts a fight by grabbing your wrist? If you get in a fighting stance and put your guard up it becomes near impossible to pull off a lot of that Chi na stuff live.

Now if we are ground fighting it's a different story, but then Chi na is BJJ not KF. :p

I think most of the classical, standing Chi na works well when you are quickly applying it to an unsuspecting person, not in a one on one fight scenario....which leads me to believe, it was not designed for self defense...

Excuse me, sir, if you'd please come with me over to this open area so that I might kick your ass. *grabs wrist*

[Kellen Bassette]

Excuse me, sir, if you'd please come with me over to this open area so that I might kick your ass. *grabs wrist*

I will oblige you with mortal combat, but only if you attack with nothing but exaggeratedly telegraphed haymakers, posing after each punch so I can land my twelve technique combo. :cool:

[Drake]

I will oblige you with mortal combat, but only if you attack with nothing but exaggeratedly telegraphed haymakers, posing after each punch so I can land my twelve technique combo. :cool:

I shall slowly and deliberately draw my entire arm back, much like Popeye, and strike you from the widest radius of movement physically possible without dislocating my own arm.

[YouKnowWho]

there is spiritual value in punching a man in the face.

To

- punch someone's face is to help him to have face transformation.
- kill someone is to help him to go to heaven.

[Sima Rong]

Headbutts and knees are better for face transformation.:D

[Syn7]

Excuse me, sir, if you'd please come with me over to this open area so that I might kick your ass. *grabs wrist*

When I was a teen, we used to get free passes to a place called playland from security if we "handled" problems for them that they couldn't. So one time these 4 guys were making trouble and we were asked to "talk" to one of them after he had been escorted off the premises. My friend Dorian walked up and said "hey, come with me" grabbed his arm and walked him across the street, sat down, changed out of his nice shoes into his basketball shoes, stood up, one punched the guy, sat back down and put his nice shoes back on. That one has always stuck in my mind. It may be rare, but weird stuff can happen like that.

[Syn7]

To

- punch someone's face is to help him to have face transformation.
- kill someone is to help him to go to heaven.

So how many hands have you broken with your face? :p

[yeshe]

In the past I knew quite a few people that could fight very well and the thing is, they were not martial artist they were some pretty rough characters and on the wrong side of the law and in some cases just lacked common decency.They were the type of guys that could be joking around, sitting back having a drink just being totally chilled out then BAM!they might be on top of some poor bas**** nokin the snot outa him.They did not train or work out or even exercise at all.
What they had was a strong inclination for violence and an idiotic fearlessness.I grew up with and later worked with these types but I always kept an arms length away from that kind of crowd.

[yeshe]

The point is that they didnt need martial arts or selfe defence classes.
Ordinary folks,thest of the 99% of us are not so inclined to confontation and espesialy physical confrontation.Most of us dont want to hurt anybody or wort yet get seriously hurt ourselves.

[YouKnowWho]

Most of us dont want to hurt anybody or wort yet get seriously hurt ourselves.

I don't have that much faith in human being. If someone kills your parents, rapes your wife and daughter, burns down your house, ... , you may want to

- open his chest,
- take his heart out,
- put it into your mouth,
- take a big bite on it, and
- have a big smile on your face.

Old Chinese saying said, "You hate someone so much that you want to eat his fresh, and sleep on his skin." If the human being are so civilized, those words would never appear in the ancient history books.

[yeshe]

[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;1250756]I don't have that much faith in human being. If someone kills your parents, rapes your wife and daughter, burns down your house, ...
Great!Thats the the point.IF some one rapes yer wife,IF some one does this or that,THEN we go and do sumthin or other. Thats the way it is for the regular sane 99% of us.
As far as old bad ass sayings go, when was the last time you busted someones eye cuz you thought they looked at you funny?Or stabbed some one cuz they owed you $200?
I never have,I have seen others act this way.I know two of them are dead and one is in jail.A lot guys on this forum could probably tell similar tales as well.There's gotta be some guys in law enforcement or maybe even a few C.O,s out there on the board.
99% of us just don't do that kind of stuff.But there is a 1% that does and that is where self defense comes in .

[wenshu]

Old Chinese saying said, "You hate someone so much that you want to eat his fresh, and sleep on his skin."

http://pixel.nymag.com/imgs/daily/vulture/2013/09/28/breaking-bad-gifs/bb4.o.jpg/a_560x0.jpg

http://pixel.nymag.com/imgs/daily/vulture/2013/09/28/breaking-bad-gifs/todd1.o.jpg/a_560x0.jpg

http://pixel.nymag.com/imgs/daily/vulture/2013/09/28/breaking-bad-gifs/todd2.o.jpg/a_560x0.jpg

[YouKnowWho]

99% of us just don't do that kind of stuff.

That's the whole point. You want to kill if you hate your opponent so much. How often do you hate your opponent that much? Just because someone call you, "You yellow"?

If we can realize that most of our conflicts in our life, we truly don't hate our opponent enough that we want to kill, there is no good reason to "start or accept any fight".

[Kellen Bassette]

Hey! Wenshu found a clip of John's "Beggar Carry Dog" technique!

[Kellen Bassette]

You want to kill if you hate your opponent so much. How often do you hate your opponent that much? Just because someone call you, "You yellow"?


Only if your Bawang.

[Shaolin Wookie]

It'd be interesting to consider the role that "self-defense" laws play in this concept, especially as related to MA. Insofar as MA schools in the US have to play around certain regulations and restrictions, as well as insurance policies, "self-defense" seems more like a convenient label. A "School of War" or "Dojo of Assault" wouldn't last a second, it seems. Or, its insurance policies would shoot through the roof.

I think this is relevant since "self-defense" as opposed to "martial arts" has a legal connotation. "Martial Arts" is not a legal category---it's the art of making war, legal or illegal. I think the concept of "self-defense" is generally taken, in the broader market of self-defense, as "how far you can go without getting prosecuted for assault." That's why so many moves in CMA are generally prefaced with ----"You shouldn't ever do this move unless your life depends on it." The problem is---you never really know when your life is going to depend upon it until it's too late.

It seems to me like "self-defense" is highly ambiguous and worthless as a concept. When students and fellow MA's ask me how to become better at sparring, fighting, etc., I always say, "You have to want to hurt your opponent more than he wants to hurt you." What this usually translates into is---don't play a game of defense.

Consider the Trayvon Martin case. Let's say that you're a creeper (George Zimmerman), and you really creep someone out. That person feels threatened (psychologically, I suppose), even though the creeper hasn't engaged in any kind of physical aggression against Martin. Martin then attacks, allegedly. Zimmerman shoots him after getting his butt kicked, since he didn't know how far Martin was going to go---and if he waited too long, he might wind up dead or braindead. He could have tried some self-defense maneuvers to ward off MArtin's blows, but why risk it if every blow brought him closer to unconsciousness (allegedly)? So he decided to cut Martin's aggression short in martial spirit.

Many people said that Martin was acting in self-defense, and that Zimmerman was the aggressor. But assuming (since we have no evidence to the contrary) that Zimmerman was just a creeper, and nothing more, then only he could have been the one acting in self-defense according to the law. And he was also the only one of the two who had the proper martial spirit for a violent encounter between two people on a relatively deserted street.

But I also do think that Martin had reason to confront Zimmerman in self-defense. Why lead the creeper back to his house? Why let that creeper know where he lived? I'd confront the creeper as a last resort, but only if I had sufficient weapons [or witnesses] at hand to do so if things turned sour. Rule #1 of MA--don't underestimate your opponent. Martin instead thought he was acting in self-defense by attacking some guy he didn't know, without any witnesses (or buddies) by his side, ignorant of the larger situation---possible guns, knives, etc. The fatal mistake was overestimating his chances as an unarmed assailant. He had a poor martial spirit, since he was trying to subdue or knock Zimmerman out. He went too far, too soon, probably with the intent of only knocking Zimmerman out, and didn't consider that the creeper was also capable of self-defense if Martin attacked first (allegedly). And of course, Zimmerman can't read minds. If some dude is bashing his head into concrete, he had better act as if his life is on the line.

What's funny is that so many people then were up in arms against the "Stand your ground" laws, since it seemed that these laws encouraged Zimmerman's hastiness on the trigger. Ironically, Martin also believed that he had the right to Stand his Ground. He simply calculated poorly. He brought fists to a gunfight (allegedly).

[Shaolin Wookie]

It seems to me that the Stand your Ground concept---you have the right to fight back, and you don't have to flee your assailant if you're on public territory---is on the right track. If you have the legal (and hence the legislatively "moral") duty to retreat, then you're generally hamstrung from the start.

And generations upon generations of minorities (not just racial) have been prosecuted in the US on the simple stipulation that they should have retreated (or responded with nonviolent protest) when violent majorities unleashed hell and prejudice upon them. Consider the customary white response to slave violence, or the white labor union response to black migration into northern states (which always led to a "race riot"----code for the burning of black neighborhoods, pillaging, and lynching by white assailants). I was always more of a Malcolm X fan than, say, a fan of that socialist *****, Ghandi.

I think this is why Malcolm X isn't in most history books, but MLK is. You can gloss over the moral duty to violent resistance--when threatened with physical force (I'm not talking grabbing a posse and looting innocent civilians or engaging in "you're such-and-such a kind of person, and so are guilty even if you haven't directly threatened me" kinds of tactics). MLK's message is uplifiting, but if Bull Connor had just steamrolled nonviolent protestors or mowed them down with machine guns (and some did indeed die), many are sacrificed as a "moral lesson." Personally, I don't think anyone should lie down at the feet of an aggressor to make a moral point for "self-defense".

Take it one step further. You can only claim that you lost a fight in "self-defense" if your assailant chooses to let you live. That's a risky assessment to suffer. You have the moral right to survive violent encounters.

Whenever I practice a technique, I don't think "Here's how I'd respond in self-defense if someone attacked me."

I tend to think--"Someone's attacking me. My wife and son are standing behind me. And it's not me that he wants. He wants them." Fleeing isn't an option, and neither is "self-defense."

I'll be ****ed if he makes it through me. I'm going to put him down for good. If he lives, then I messed up, or I knocked him out too early.

Granted, thinking this doesn't make me invincible, but I think it's the proper spirit for martial arts.

[Shaolin Wookie]

Most self-defense boils down to common sense.

Don't walk down deserted streets.

Don't put yourself in dangerous situations.

Keep distance from shady characters.

If your wife and child are with you, don't stay out too late.

Don't hang out at bars late into the night, and if you are hanging out at a bar, avoid the loud *******s, the ones who look like they're looking for a fight, etc. And be careful whose chick you're talking to.

Be respectful.

Carry concealed weapons.

When all else fails, unleash hell.:D That's when Martial ARts are required.