New Member

[Neil-Y]

Hi all

I'm new to the Forum but not to Ving Tsun. I just wanted to take the opportunity to introduce myself and hopefully add something to the Forum.

I trained for many years under Samuel Kwok eventually becoming an instructor and have had my own club for just over a year. My main focus was really Ip Chings method.

However earlier this year I started to become disillusioned with the Ving Tsun I was learning and teaching. Mainly when trying to apply what I had learnt into free sparring. Quite simply outside of chi sau with people who trained the same way it just didn't work!

Fortunately I started training with Graham H who I'm sure some of you know from this Forum and started learning Philipp Bayer Ving Tsun from him. I have to say I was blown away. I thought my VT was Ok but I was shown otherwise. And thank god I have made the transition.


N

[LaRoux]

Hi all

I'm new to the Forum but not to Ving Tsun. I just wanted to take the opportunity to introduce myself and hopefully add something to the Forum.

I trained for many years under Samuel Kwok eventually becoming an instructor and have had my own club for just over a year. My main focus was really Ip Chings method.

However earlier this year I started to become disillusioned with the Ving Tsun I was learning and teaching. Mainly when trying to apply what I had learnt into free sparring. Quite simply outside of chi sau with people who trained the same way it just didn't work!

Fortunately I started training with Graham H who I'm sure some of you know from this Forum and started learning Philipp Bayer Ving Tsun from him. I have to say I was blown away. I thought my VT was Ok but I was shown otherwise. And thank god I have made the transition.


N

Maybe you can post some of these sparring clips since no one else from this lineage has ever been able to.

[Neil-Y]

Maybe you can post some of these sparring clips since no one else from this lineage has ever been able to.

What clips and what lineage?

[LaRoux]

What clips and what lineage?

Clips of you free sparring with the things you have learned from the PB lineage.

[Neil-Y]

Clips of you free sparring with the things you have learned from the PB lineage.

I didn't say I had taken clips. These things are far better experienced in person. I know everyone thinks that there way is the best but having seen both sides now now I have absolutely no doubt in my mind.

[LaRoux]

I didn't say I had taken clips. These things are far better experienced in person. I know everyone thinks that there way is the best but having seen both sides now now I have absolutely no doubt in my mind.

Oh, another PB person who "spars", but has no evidence of that. Just like the rest of them. Ho-hum. Whatever.

[Neil-Y]

Oh, another PB person who "spars", but has no evidence of that. Just like the rest of them. Ho-hum. Whatever.

Pmsl....didn't realise we needed video evidence to become members of this Forum. Whatever yawn zzzzzz

[Neil-Y]

Come on in, the water's lovely.

Did you bring a tin helmet? :)

Oh and can I thank T-Ray for pointing me in the right direction!

[LaRoux]

Pmsl....didn't realise we needed video evidence to become members of this Forum. Whatever yawn zzzzzz

You don't. But then you just become like all the rest of the PB fanboy cult. Lots of claims, but zero evidence.

[slick69]

I didn't say I had taken clips. These things are far better experienced in person. I know everyone thinks that there way is the best but having seen both sides now now I have absolutely no doubt in my mind.

Both sides? Why not more sides? Did you test with others outside of Bayer?

[Neil-Y]

You don't. But then you just become like all the rest of the PB fanboy cult. Lots of claims, but zero evidence.

Ha ha I'm loving this Forum already. Its a claim born out of my experience. I can see how others become defensive,,,,I was to. But once experienced it's strikingly apparent what I was previously doing wasn't working.

[k gledhill]

Welcome Neil Y. Shame you got la'wanka on the first post
; )

[BPWT]

Graham, is that you? :D

An English rose by any other name...

[KPM]

Graham, is that you? :D

An English rose by any other name...

Yeah. Call me suspicious, but with all the shenanigans here lately...this certainly stinks of a set up. The statements, the phrasing. Whatever yawn zzzzz
Really? :rolleyes:

[anerlich]

But Phil Bayer can do anything. Even human cloning. :p

[LFJ]

It's funny you guys think they should need to fake converts with the actual numbers they do have. You should definitely be suspicious if someone says they converted from PB to Kwok.

[Graham H]

Graham, is that you? :D

An English rose by any other name...

Lmfao. I told you they would think you were somebody else Neil. F***ing clowns! :D

[BPWT]

Login, logout. Login, logout.

There's just no need, Graham. You're talking about 'turning on your lights' and finding 'the one true way' under both persona. :D

[Graham H]

Login, logout. Login, logout.

There's just no need, Graham. You're talking about 'turning on your lights' and finding 'the one true way' under both persona. :D

WTF are you on about Larry? You're not making much sense these days. Not that you did in the first place. Yon can visit his webpage if you like.

.......or maybe it's my webpage :rolleyes:

[Graham H]

Yeah. Call me suspicious, but with all the shenanigans here lately...this certainly stinks of a set up. The statements, the phrasing. Whatever yawn zzzzz
Really? :rolleyes:

Have you told your students that you are teaching a diluted misinterpreted version of Wing Chun yet Keith?

[BPWT]

Have you told your students that you are teaching a diluted misinterpreted version of Wing Chun yet Keith?

Knickers.
In.
A.
Twist.

Relax, Graham-Y

:D:D

[Graham H]

Knickers.
In.
A.
Twist.

Relax, Graham-Y

:D:D

How do you know I'm wearing knickers and how do you know they are twisted into my farm slot? :confused:

[BPWT]

How do you know I'm wearing knickers and how do you know they are twisted into my farm slot? :confused:

Your webcam, Graham-Y-Oh, Y.

:)

[KPM]

Have you told your students that you are teaching a diluted misinterpreted version of Wing Chun yet Keith?

Whatever dude! :rolleyes:

[Neil-Y]

Lmfao. I told you they would think you were somebody else Neil. F***ing clowns! :D

Unbelievable....I guess the desperate will do anything to discredit.

[Neil-Y]

I can assure you all I am genuine.

Carry on wristing!

[BPWT]

Maybe you are - and maybe Graham, in person, is a nice guy.

But on this forum he often acts like a pr*ck, so pretending to be someone else... well, I wouldn't put it past him.

[Graham H]

Maybe you are - and maybe Graham, in person, is a nice guy.

But on this forum he often acts like a pr*ck, so pretending to be someone else... well, I wouldn't put it past him.

Oooooooo a bit of name calling is it? Kind of ironic that coming from one of the biggest tits on here. That little cage of yours getting a bit rattled just because now we have somebody else that can rubbish your stupid ideas on Wing Chun? Keep it coming big boy! :D:D

[k gledhill]

@Neil. What did you see in GH explanations that made you drop the other ?

[BPWT]

Maybe Graham can get two computers... that way he can preach the faith to pagans like me, whilst simultaneously stroking his own assertions and pontifications with his alter ego.

[Graham H]

Neil meet Larry. BPWT. You will find his posts amusing. Do a bit of reading on his previous attempts. He practices Wing Tsun in the Leung Ting lineage. No more needs to be said lol :D:D

[BPWT]

Oooooooo a bit of name calling is it? Kind of ironic that coming from one of the biggest tits on here. That little cage of yours getting a bit rattled just because now we have somebody else that can rubbish your stupid ideas on Wing Chun? Keep it coming big boy! :D:D

Dude, one extra PB groupie or 10,000, it makes no odds... you all spout the same message: that PB is Chesney Hawkes.

[Graham H]

Maybe Graham can get two computers... that way he can preach the faith to pagans like me, whilst simultaneously stroking his own assertions and pontifications with his alter ego.

Boring. Yaaaaaaaaawn :rolleyes:

[Graham H]

Dude, one extra PB groupie or 10,000, it makes no odds... you all spout the same message: PB is Chesney Hawkes.

Chesney Hawkes eh? We are dishing it out today aren't we? I think I prefer Chesney to coco the clown Leung Ting and Kenny Rogers on crack, Maday Norbert!

You idiot Larry lol

[KPM]

I can assure you all I am genuine.

Carry on wristing!

Well Neil, if you are real person...then welcome! All you have to do is go back and read through some of the threads to see why there seems to be any ill-will towards the PB guys here. They have brought it all upon themselves by the way they address people, respond to posts, and lineage bash. Just review Graham's responses above. Please don't be another with that kind of attitude. Its Ok to have found something that works really well for you and that you really enjoy. We want to hear about it! But there is no need for a lot of the really nasty responses and criticisms we have been seeing here of late.

[Neil-Y]

@Neil. What did you see in GH explanations that made you drop the other ?

Well I didn't drop straight away. I had alot of responsibility as I have my own club so needed to be **** sure I was doing the right thing. It would have been alot easier if I didn't have students. After all they were paying me money only for me to turn around and say guys what we are doing just won't work.

So over a few months I trained with Graham and saw for myself. Each time I went to see him reinforced my view. My chi sau felt like it was built on sand. Too much trying to control and keep contact. Using the wrists too much leaving my arms in bad positions. Over turning being exploited, Basically that fact the techniques were based on all this 'feeling' the direction of the energy and then based on that redirecting......all in the space of a nanosecond.....just didn't work. The main point was that I was easily being hit far too easily. I was being turned. When I used a technique too much power and over cooked it then exploited.

Very quickly Graham was showing me ways through forms to change my behaviour, elbow position, balance through chum kui, structure and development of punch through poon sau, drills individual to me to iron out specific problems I have.

But I like how the system fits together as an individual improvement strategy. Plus I'm finding things work in sparring. Still along way to go.

Neil

[Neil-Y]

Well Neil, if you are real person...then welcome! All you have to do is go back and read through some of the threads to see why there seems to be any ill-will towards the PB guys here. They have brought it all upon themselves by the way they address people, respond to posts, and lineage bash. Just review Graham's responses above. Please don't be another with that kind of attitude. Its Ok to have found something that works really well for you and that you really enjoy. We want to hear about it! But there is no need for a lot of the really nasty responses and criticisms we have been seeing here of late.

Thanks Keith.

[Graham H]

Well Neil, if you are real person...then welcome! All you have to do is go back and read through some of the threads to see why there seems to be any ill-will towards the PB guys here. They have brought it all upon themselves by the way they address people, respond to posts, and lineage bash. Please don't be another with that kind of attitude. Its Ok to have found something that works really well for you and that you really enjoy. We want to hear about it! But there is no need for a lot of the really nasty responses and criticisms we have been seeing here of late.

Stop crying Keith FFs!

[KPM]

Stop crying Keith FFs!

Thank you Graham. You've illustrated my point perfectly. :rolleyes:

[k gledhill]

Well I didn't drop straight away. I had alot of responsibility as I have my own club so needed to be **** sure I was doing the right thing. It would have been alot easier if I didn't have students. After all they were paying me money only for me to turn around and say guys what we are doing just won't work.

So over a few months I trained with Graham and saw for myself. Each time I went to see him reinforced my view. My chi sau felt like it was built on sand. Too much trying to control and keep contact. Using the wrists too much leaving my arms in bad positions. Over turning being exploited, Basically that fact the techniques were based on all this 'feeling' the direction of the energy and then based on that redirecting......all in the space of a nanosecond.....just didn't work. The main point was that I was easily being hit far too easily. I was being turned. When I used a technique too much power and over cooked it then exploited.

Very quickly Graham was showing me ways through forms to change my behaviour, elbow position, balance through chum kui, structure and development of punch through poon sau, drills individual to me to iron out specific problems I have.

But I like how the system fits together as an individual improvement strategy. Plus I'm finding things work in sparring. Still along way to go.

Neil


Same here. The common "feeling" thing taught is all wrong. I also had to change and luckily my students all saw the same, not surprisingly. Sparring too, before I was more self defense this for that.

[Neil-Y]

Yeah, because people like you and BPWT would never be like that to others.

I came here and tried (and still do try) to be genuine, but I was immediately branded as one of those "PB cult" followers, and my attempts at answering and explaining things from our perspective have been met with usual scorn and derision.

Any genuine queries about PBVT seem to have an ulterior motive and are just opportunities for others to let us spill our methods in order for them to nitpick, bash and try to justify their own methods.
Sad.

Yeah welcome Neil. :)

Don't give up trying Trevor.

[LFJ]

Well I didn't drop straight away. I had alot of responsibility as I have my own club so needed to be **** sure I was doing the right thing. It would have been alot easier if I didn't have students. After all they were paying me money only for me to turn around and say guys what we are doing just won't work.

As I recall Graham saying, when he started over from scratch he had to do the same thing and lost students as a result. That's far more respectable than keeping the cheongsam on and pretending to be Ip Man from the movies knowing your sh!t won't work.

[Neil-Y]

As I recall Graham saying, when he started over from scratch he had to do the same thing and lost students as a result. That's far more respectable than keeping the cheongsam on and pretending to be Ip Man from the movies knowing your sh!t won't work.

Indeed. I also have had some casualties.

[KPM]

Yeah, because people like you and BPWT would never be like that to others.

Not saying we don't have our off days. But I certainly try to keep things polite and civil. But I admit I get drawn in when people start telling me what I am saying is "non-sense" that I don't know what I am talking about, and start throwing slurs and taunts my way. The level of vindictiveness put out by Graham and Kevin is fairly unmatched.


I came here and tried (and still do try) to be genuine, but I was immediately branded as one of those "PB cult" followers, and my attempts at answering and explaining things from our perspective have been met with usual scorn and derision.

That is unfortunate. I admit that you have been making an honest attempt at having a civil discussion of late. But I don't think your perspective has been met with "scorn and derision." Its just when something doesn't add up or make sense and further questions are asked, the typical comeback tends be just more lineage bashing and "you just don't get it" kind of responses.

Any genuine queries about PBVT seem to have an ulterior motive and are just opportunities for others to let us spill our methods in order for them to nitpick, bash and try to justify their own methods.

The problem is that any genuine queries about PBVT tend to get squashed by the non-sense that drowns out any real conversation. Why is it that I could have a perfectly civil discussion with PBVT about LTWT or with JPinAZ about HFY, but we can't seem to have civil discussions about PBVT? Could it be because of the way the information is presented? Could it be due to some of the responses that simple questions or descriptions of someone else's methods receives? Go back and read through the various exchanges and see how often the response to someone describing what they do in their lineage or asking a perfectly innocent question was met with the equivalent of ....."you're stupid" , "you obviously don't know what you're doing" , or "your version of Wing Chun sucks." So then the motive becomes to prove you guys wrong because you have set yourself up on this high pedestal as being the only guys that know the "real" Wing Chun. Don't you see that? If your basic message in every post about PBVT is that you are right and everyone else's Wing Chun sucks, how can you expect that it won't be met with a negative response?

[Graham H]

As I recall Graham saying, when he started over from scratch he had to do the same thing and lost students as a result. That's far more respectable than keeping the cheongsam on and pretending to be Ip Man from the movies knowing your sh!t won't work.

Yes when I returned from Germany I told my students that what I was teaching was incorrect. It was difficult but I was more interested in getting what I saw from PB so I guess I was a bit selfish. The ones that left I was actually glad. Like a lot of people in Wing Chun they wanted a fast track to Sifuville and all the gradings, kung fu suits and slippers etc.

The main thing I had to change was my structure and improve my power. I saw PB toying with guys twice his size and I was blown away by it all. He gave me things to go away and practice and little by little I began to develop correctly and in turn move further away from my old thinking.

There are so many problems with usual Wing Chun but you have to be exposed to a better method before you can see that. This is the big problem with this forum. Apart from a few us nobody else here has seen it so they won't know any better. All they can do is speculate and form incorrect opinions. Keith and BPWT are this weeks winners by being at the top of the list. :)

[BPWT]

As there's no official moderating here, why don't we just moderate our own posts?

Rather than say someone's method is wrong, why don't we just agree to explain our take on it, and leave it at that? Whatever we say here, next week all these lineages will still exist.

Answer questions, respond to replies, and keep any negativity regarding it all to ourselves.

For my part, I'll stop verbally bumming Graham :D, I'll stop making digs about Kevin's clip and his seminar costs, etc, and I'll do my best not to mention 'punching concepts' unless I can do so in a nice way.

Why don't we all agree that tomorrow is Sensible Friday. :D

[k gledhill]

[
QUOTE=BPWT;1250140]As there's no official moderating here, why don't we just moderate our own posts?

Rather than say someone's method is wrong, why don't we just agree to explain our take on it, and leave it at that? Whatever we say here, next week all these lineages will still exist.

Answer questions, respond to replies, and keep any negativity regarding it all to ourselves.

For my part, I'll stop verbally bumming Graham :D, I'll stop making digs about Kevin's clip and his seminar costs, etc, and I'll do my best not to mention 'punching concepts' unless I can do so in a nice way.

And I shall stop reffering to bpwt and his arseociates as clowns. ; )

[BPWT]

[

And I shall stop reffering to bpwt and his arseociates as clowns. ; )

Okay :) As a sign of good faith, I've even removed you from my signature, Kevin. :D

[k gledhill]

Okay :) As a sign of good faith, I've even removed you from my signature, Kevin. :D

I too have removed equally inflammatory statements off mine ; )

[slick69]

[

And I shall stop reffering to bpwt and his arseociates as clowns. ; )

Could you stop your cult of Bayer and be open minded? Otherwise you would be better off a Bayer worship forum...

[k gledhill]

Could you stop your cult of Bayer and be open minded? Otherwise you would be better off a Bayer worship forum...

Ignore me ; )

[KPM]

What are you going to do?......
Carry on doing it the way you have learned? (Ignorance is bliss)
Try to mix it with what you already know? (but complete re thinking is needed)
Give up?...(I know of long-time instructors from other lineages taking this option).
Or do you accept what you have discovered and re learn?

Heck no! I wouldn't dream of telling you that you should stop doing PBVT! Like I told Neil, if you've found something that works for you and makes sense for you....great! And I DO want to hear how you are seeing things differently. Same as I want to hear from JPinAZ how HFY might see something differently. What I don't wnat to hear is all the venum and lineage bashing that seems to go with it most of the time.


On this forum there are those who clearly have the same misconceptions that you had. What should we do?....Say nothing? How welcome do you think our views going to be?

Like I have tried to point out over and over, its HOW you say it. Do you want people to actually listen to what you have to say? Insulting them and their teachers is not exactly the way to get them to listen! Can you see that from our point of view?

[BPWT]

It's a good point, especially within a particular lineage. Many people in the EWTO, over the years, have left the organization when they realized they were not really learning LT's system - but rather KK's interpretation coupled with his own ideas. Many left and had to try and find a way to learn LT's system, which was no easy task in Europe... where do you go?

Some found a way, others quit the system entirely, some just trained with other like-minded people, yet others left and joined another WC/VT lineage. Graham has pointed out how many EWTO people now learn from PB.... it is no shock to me.

But I think these things (the differences, the methods, etc) can be expressed in a way that doesn't lead to the slanging matches we engage in here (the exception being Sean, who remains polite all the time).

Maybe it's best to avoid saying "You are wrong/incorrect", etc.

For example, the way some people do Bong Sau is different to how I do mine. Your method has a logic to it that fits within your system, mine a logic that fits within mine. Secretly you might think, "My method works, his is crazy bad." :D

Let's keep these thoughts in our own heads, and simply explain why we do what we do. :)

Even with vastly different approaches, there are some commonalities. None of us are here to convert people to our method - and I'm sure if all I wanted to do was chat to LTWT guys I could find a forum for it. The fact that we all come to an 'open' forum for the art must mean we want to talk to people who do train in different ways, no?

[k gledhill]

It's a good point, especially within a particular lineage. Many people in the EWTO, over the years, have left the organization when they realized they were not really learning LT's system - but rather KK's interpretation coupled with his own ideas. Many left and had to try and find a way to learn LT's system, which was no easy task in Europe... where do you go?

Some found a way, others quit the system entirely, some just trained with other like-minded people, yet others left and joined another WC/VT lineage. Graham has pointed out how many EWTO people now learn from PB.... it is no shock to me.

But I think these things (the differences, the methods, etc) can be expressed in a way that doesn't lead to the slanging matches we engage in here (the exception being Sean, who remains polite all the time).

Maybe it's best to avoid saying "You are wrong/incorrect", etc.

For example, the way some people do Bong Sau is different to how I do mine. Your method has a logic to it that fits within your system, mine a logic that fits within mine. Secretly you might think, "My method works, his is crazy bad." :D

Let's keep these thoughts in our own heads, and simply explain why we do what we do. :)

Even with vastly different approaches, there are some commonalities. None of us are here to convert people to our method - and I'm sure if all I wanted to do was chat to LTWT guys I could find a forum for it. The fact that we all come to an 'open' forum for the art must mean we want to talk to people who do train in different ways, no?

KK stuff is bizarre, like he has a full blow cult approach. His demos are almost like monks sending guys bouncing away from secret forces. Almost .

[guy b.]

Oh, another PB person who "spars", but has no evidence of that. Just like the rest of them. Ho-hum. Whatever.

Do you have evidence of anything?

[guy b.]

As there's no official moderating here, why don't we just moderate our own posts?

Rather than say someone's method is wrong, why don't we just agree to explain our take on it, and leave it at that? Whatever we say here, next week all these lineages will still exist.

Answer questions, respond to replies, and keep any negativity regarding it all to ourselves.

For my part, I'll stop verbally bumming Graham :D, I'll stop making digs about Kevin's clip and his seminar costs, etc, and I'll do my best not to mention 'punching concepts' unless I can do so in a nice way.

Why don't we all agree that tomorrow is Sensible Friday. :D

Good post.

How to respond to anti wing chun trolling from the likes of laroux though?

[Jubei1]

Hello Neil & welcome to the forum.

Can you please explain why you felt that your old method of chi sau "felt like it was built on sand".

Also Im assuming, through what you wrote, that you too were taught "feeling" and "sensitivity" in your prior VT lineage when playing chi sau. What has changed for you now? What are you drilling now in your chi sau? More angling and foot work?

Where do you see the method of "sensitivity" drilling fail?

Ive also noticed that pbwslvt chi sau looks different from what I'm used to seeing. No "wristing" as you guys call it, or palming of bridges. Is it fair to say that although you do not "palm" you control with your forearms. Maybe control is not the proper word here for I know that prolonged contact is a no no, but I hope you get my point ??

I'm trying to get a good understanding of pbvt and sadly I am unable to visit him personally to get first had experience and I'm finding it difficult to find any literature or information regarding his method so I would like to gain some information from you guys

[Neil-Y]

Hello Neil & welcome to the forum.

Can you please explain why you felt that your old method of chi sau "felt like it was built on sand".

Also Im assuming, through what you wrote, that you too were taught "feeling" and "sensitivity" in your prior VT lineage when playing chi sau. What has changed for you now? What are you drilling now in your chi sau? More angling and foot work?

Where do you see the method of "sensitivity" drilling fail?

Ive also noticed that pbwslvt chi sau looks different from what I'm used to seeing. No "wristing" as you guys call it, or palming of bridges. Is it fair to say that although you do not "palm" you control with your forearms. Maybe control is not the proper word here for I know that prolonged contact is a no no, but I hope you get my point ??

I'm trying to get a good understanding of pbvt and sadly I am unable to visit him personally to get first had experience and I'm finding it difficult to find any literature or information regarding his method so I would like to gain some information from you guys

Why did it feel like it was built on sand. Well basically my elbow position was to far out in the tan and fook positions so when force was exchanged I would use my wrists as the elbow was nowhere to be seen lol. Also I was using my upper body and didn't have awareness of using my whole body to issue force. Stance was to narrow and high.

The difference in Poon Sau is quite different. The way I used to do it the emphasis was contact at the wrists which had a consequence that your hands would go where your partners were as it was about sticking and controlling. Also maybe if your partner pushed too much you could sense this and redirect or perhaps use your partners wrong energy and do an attacking move. It was a platform for techniques. The trouble I found was that unless someone did a slow push and left their arm out there wasn't normally prolonged contact with someones arms in a sparring. You may get contact for a split second so your opportunity to feel is nigh on impossible. My sparring looked like some wierd hybrid version of kickboxing wrestling Tai Chi and looked nothing like wing chun. Arms flailing and chasing arms that were no longer there.

Poon Sau the way I do it now is a training exercise for developing the punch and structure through exchange force from the elbow.....I think lol.

[BPWT]

KK stuff is bizarre, like he has a full blow cult approach. His demos are almost like monks sending guys bouncing away from secret forces. Almost .

As I'm in my 'all warm and fuzzy' mode regarding the forum, all I will say regarding KK and his EWTO is that as time goes by, he and it moves ever further away from what LT teaches. ;)

IMO, more and more the EWTO is about appealing to those who want to train in a... less combative way, let's say. Some people like it - so to each his own.

I leave my classes aching, sweaty and more often than not bruised - and I like it that way :D

[Jubei1]

Thank you Neil for responding.

A question about this statement:


The way I used to do it the emphasis was contact at the wrists which had a consequence that your hands would go where your partners were as it was about sticking and controlling

Can this not be an issue of focused energy. What I mean by that is if you weren’t chasing hands and focused on attacking centre would it matter where the point of contact was?

As far as poon sau, you have also made a switch in thinking. How do you train now for developing the punch? Is it a change in mind set… same drills or completely new drills with new mind set?

Thanks again Neil

[Grumblegeezer]

As I'm in my 'all warm and fuzzy' mode regarding the forum, all I will say regarding KK and his EWTO is that as time goes by, he and it moves ever further away from what LT teaches....

My current instructor is actually my si-dai. Back in the 80s we trained together under LT. Si-dai and instructor you ask? Yeah, what can I say. He's just better than me, and yes he does call me si-hing even when he's kicking my arse.

Anyway, he spent a lot of time in the EWTO and is personal friend, student, and admirer of KK. Not so much of LT these days, since he split from his association. So he's been showing me some of KK's newer stuff. It's very interesting, and should not be dismissed out of hand just because it doesn't come from LT. But being a simple soul, I do better when sticking to the basics. If I were more talented, I'd ...er, still stick to the basics. That's just me, I guess.

Now in response to your comment above I'm posting a KK clip. Yes, as Kevin noted, the techniques are strange, mysterious and like monks sending people bouncing away ...almost. You can tell the stuff is mysterious if you turn up the sound track! :D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6STx6wrzIvk&list=PLD85FF7C6BCE786AB

[LaRoux]

Do you have evidence of anything?

I've posted several examples of WC people not being able to use their principles, theories and techniques in full contact situations. Many others have also posted many examples of the same.

[LaRoux]

Good post.

How to respond to anti wing chun trolling from the likes of laroux though?

Simple. Post some evidence when you make a claim.

[Grumblegeezer]

I've posted several examples of WC people not being able to use their principles, theories and techniques in full contact situations. Many others have also posted many examples of the same.

Hey LaRoux, are there any WC individuals or groups you do approve of regarding training and applying their stuff effectively against resisting opponents?

[Neil-Y]

Thank you Neil for responding.

A question about this statement:



Can this not be an issue of focused energy. What I mean by that is if you weren’t chasing hands and focused on attacking centre would it matter where the point of contact was?

As far as poon sau, you have also made a switch in thinking. How do you train now for developing the punch? Is it a change in mind set… same drills or completely new drills with new mind set?

Thanks again Neil

Possibly but that's not how I was originally taught. it even started off in Dan Chi sau when your partner did the palm strike we would jut sau the wrist down to navel level. So right from the start we were using the wrist to divert energy away taking our hands from a good position opening up huge gaps.

The problem was that contact at the wrist became habit and chi sau was a platform for techniques too. So that habit manifested itself in sparring. I was search for arms like fracking zombie.

The punch is developed in many ways through poon sau, wall bag, the pole etc....and of course the relationship of the punch through the first form.

Many of the drills I used to do where based on what we called faan sau which translates as returning hand which is basically the continuation of attacks and defenses. But again the problem was it was predicated on long periods of contact with yr partners arms which looked good with a willing partner but if ever things got a bit heated and speeds increased there was less contact so opportunity to feel and control diminished. Some drills are similar but the movement is different. The lap sau drill is more alive,

[BPWT]

So he's been showing me some of KK's newer stuff. It's very interesting, and should not be dismissed out of hand just because it doesn't come from LT.

I suppose for me, the difficulty is two-fold. :)

1. KK's stuff these days often compromises, IMO, some of the LTWT basics. So in the modern EWTO clips I see elbow position compromised, giving up the centerline, a lack of Yiu Ma Hap Yat, a lack of Dim Dim Ching (outside of the usual form reference), general structural compromises, too much static stance and no footwork in the drills, etc.

2. It is not LTWT, and I am interested in learning LTWT :D

But if people get something from it, good for them :) The EWTO still attracts a lot of students, so they must be offering something that many people want.


Yes, as Kevin noted, the techniques are strange, mysterious and like monks sending people bouncing away ...almost. You can tell the stuff is mysterious if you turn up the sound track! :D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6STx6wrzIvk&list=PLD85FF7C6BCE786AB

Yes... not my cup of tea. ;)

[LaRoux]

Hey LaRoux, are there any WC individuals or groups you do approve of regarding training and applying their stuff effectively against resisting opponents?

Phil Redmond is probably the only guy who has been able to provide evidence of his WC guys consistently being successful using the stuff they learn in training in full contact environments.

[GlennR]

As there's no official moderating here, why don't we just moderate our own posts?

Rather than say someone's method is wrong, why don't we just agree to explain our take on it, and leave it at that? Whatever we say here, next week all these lineages will still exist.

Answer questions, respond to replies, and keep any negativity regarding it all to ourselves.

For my part, I'll stop verbally bumming Graham :D, I'll stop making digs about Kevin's clip and his seminar costs, etc, and I'll do my best not to mention 'punching concepts' unless I can do so in a nice way.

Why don't we all agree that tomorrow is Sensible Friday. :D

Gee, don't do that, graham lives a good bumming

[sihing]

Well I didn't drop straight away. I had alot of responsibility as I have my own club so needed to be **** sure I was doing the right thing. It would have been alot easier if I didn't have students. After all they were paying me money only for me to turn around and say guys what we are doing just won't work.

So over a few months I trained with Graham and saw for myself. Each time I went to see him reinforced my view. My chi sau felt like it was built on sand. Too much trying to control and keep contact. Using the wrists too much leaving my arms in bad positions. Over turning being exploited, Basically that fact the techniques were based on all this 'feeling' the direction of the energy and then based on that redirecting......all in the space of a nanosecond.....just didn't work. The main point was that I was easily being hit far too easily. I was being turned. When I used a technique too much power and over cooked it then exploited.

Very quickly Graham was showing me ways through forms to change my behaviour, elbow position, balance through chum kui, structure and development of punch through poon sau, drills individual to me to iron out specific problems I have.

But I like how the system fits together as an individual improvement strategy. Plus I'm finding things work in sparring. Still along way to go.

Neil

Nice Sharing Neil:)

Had a similar experience as you in 06' when I travelled to LA and had my first experience in WSLVT. Came from a TWC background and it was a totally different feeling and method as compared to the WSLVT method, they controlled my center mass easily in chi sau and from guys with 2yrs experience, me 18yrs in TWC, so it was that feeling and other experiences that just made me have to switch over.

Coming back (I didn't tell anyone in the club I had what I was doing), it told them what happened, and in the beginning taught both methods and eventually stopped teaching TWC all together. My Sifu and one senior were not impressed, as I related my experience here on KFO, since then pretty well no contact with them, and Happy for the change in systems, lots of great and not so great experiences since then but thankful for it, my VT experience has risen a ton since 06'..

Welcome to the forum by the way:)

James

[k gledhill]

Phil Redmond is probably the only guy who has been able to provide evidence of his WC guys consistently being successful using the stuff they learn in training in full contact environments.

This shows me you know nothing of ving tsun. And youre a wanker.

[k gledhill]

Ban him :D
The enemy of my enemy and all that. :D:D:D

Bleed him after quartering. : )

[k gledhill]

Nice Sharing Neil:)

Had a similar experience as you in 06' when I travelled to LA and had my first experience in WSLVT. Came from a TWC background and it was a totally different feeling and method as compared to the WSLVT method, they controlled my center mass easily in chi sau and from guys with 2yrs experience, me 18yrs in TWC, so it was that feeling and other experiences that just made me have to switch over.

Coming back (I didn't tell anyone in the club I had what I was doing), it told them what happened, and in the beginning taught both methods and eventually stopped teaching TWC all together. My Sifu and one senior were not impressed, as I related my experience here on KFO, since then pretty well no contact with them, and Happy for the change in systems, lots of great and not so great experiences since then but thankful for it, my VT experience has risen a ton since 06'..

Welcome to the forum by the way:)

James

This shows me you understand ving tsun ; )

Just a btw but a Serbian TWC master and 300 strong group all defected to pb recently. For the same reasons. : )

[sihing]

This shows me you understand ving tsun ; )

Just a btw but a Serbian TWC master and 300 strong group all defected to pb recently. For the same reasons. : )

Thanks:) Yes, Nenad, I remember his vids from his time with GM Cheung, he was a big promoter, and like me had an experience and went his own way..

Looking back, TWC wasn't a waste of time for me, its just I had very little exposure to other VT systems outside the TWC umbrella as I live in a sort of isolated area, and there isn't much Wing Chun in this area anyways. TWC is more of a longer range VT system, outside elbow/knee range, and is a style more so than a development system. Its a "he does this, you do that" type of learning and such,,it works for some and may be their cup of tea, not mine anymore...I do share some of the things I learned though from TWC, entry tech, elbow/knee watching at long range, some techniques as well, but it's easy to pick that stuff up as compared to learning a good VT foundation of structure, mechanics, aim, power generation, lines of attack/angles and so forth, that is much harder and more valuable IMO:) To each their own though:) We all have our own reasons for participating in what we do...

J

[LFJ]

Now in response to your comment above I'm posting a KK clip. Yes, as Kevin noted, the techniques are strange, mysterious and like monks sending people bouncing away ...almost. You can tell the stuff is mysterious if you turn up the sound track! :D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6STx6wrzIvk&list=PLD85FF7C6BCE786AB

WTF was that at :49? The Heimlich, or something more mysterious? :confused:

[k gledhill]

WTF was that at :49? The Heimlich, or something more mysterious? :confused:

Amazing what a potential franchise and pyramid schemes do to people.

[anerlich]

Just a btw but a Serbian TWC master and 300 strong group all defected to pb recently. For the same reasons. : )

To be fair, William Cheung should be in the Guinness Book of Records for the number of instructor level students having defected from him over close to five decades. They are legion.

I know a significant number - the first having busted up with him in the late 1960s. By all accounts he was never an easy man to work for or get along with. I've witnessed this first hand and seen and heard tons of hearsay.

I'm glad this was just a BTW and you weren't trying to score a point for pb or anything :p

[LaRoux]

To be fair, William Cheung should be in the Guinness Book of Records for the number of instructor level students having defected from him over close to five decades. They are legion.

Yet someone from his lineage is the only one who is able to provide evidence of his fighters winning consistently using the WC he has taught them. Interesting.

[LFJ]

Yet someone from his lineage is the only one who is able to provide evidence of his fighters winning consistently using the WC he has taught them. Interesting.

So they are the only ones into sporting competition, and that matters why?

[LaRoux]

So they are the only ones into sporting competition, and that matters why?

Sporting or non sporting, it doesn't change the cold hard fact that they are the only ones who have provided consistent evidence of their WC actually working in full-contact situations. Everyone else has only pontificated.

[LFJ]

And that matters why? Wing Chun training is personal. If only matters if you can use it successfully. You should concern yourself with your own training.

[LaRoux]

And that matters why? Wing Chun training is personal. If only matters if you can use it successfully. You should concern yourself with your own training.

It simply gives them much more credibility than the no-evidence pontificators who post about their made-up exploits using their supposed WC.

[LFJ]

Not sure why that concerns you so. You post more about that than you do discussing their actual system. If you don't think it works you can discuss why you think not, or just not come here and be bothered by the pontification.

[Paddington]

I am not a PB exponent and I have not spent time training with any of PB's students. However, like neil I too found that a lot of what was taught under the Ip Chun and Ip Ching families, just does not work in proper fights or heavy contact sparring. IMO WSL's and others' (that shall remain nameless) interpretations are superior under this context i.e. fighting.To be positive also; from my own experience of training with a very well known student of Ip Chun, the major strengths were the development of relaxation, sensitivity and speed.

However, given the 'traditional' training methods it is very rare that students there would be tested under more realistic contexts.

I remember the furor that kicked up at one gathering in HK where Ip Chun said he would like to see wing chun develop more into a 'past-time' that promoted 'health and an active life' a la 'common' tai chi. Of course this 'focus' would be at the expense of treating wing chun as the combat art that it is. For better or worse I see this attitude in a lot of Ip Chun's students.

[sihing]

Evidence is only needed when ur trying to prove it to others, LAroux seems to want us to do this for him, sorry to break it too Laroux but that is not our responsibility, it is always urs to prove to urself that what u train in works for u. Here on the forum all we can use is words to describe our experience and thoughts on things VT related, which is a poor representative of what that acrually means for us on a personal basis, as my factual experience is only a story for u as it is related here in words.

J

[Paddington]

[...] sorry to break it too Laroux but that is not our responsibility, it is always urs to prove to urself that what u train in works for u. [...]

No words are 'truer' I think.

[Graham H]

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQmaDIblQIiWZMJrdZE3LG7EBavNPg37 D4-QXMdmwDk7YH_dbQ_-A


He doesn't look like much a fighter to me!:)

[Frost]

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQmaDIblQIiWZMJrdZE3LG7EBavNPg37 D4-QXMdmwDk7YH_dbQ_-A


He doesn't look like much a fighter to me!:)

If he is who guy B thinks he is, La Roux would hand everyone on this thread their backsides in both armed and un armed combat, yours and mine included :)

[Kellen Bassette]

Now in response to your comment above I'm posting a KK clip. Yes, as Kevin noted, the techniques are strange, mysterious and like monks sending people bouncing away ...almost. You can tell the stuff is mysterious if you turn up the sound track! :D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6STx6wrzIvk&list=PLD85FF7C6BCE786AB

I'm not going to touch on how realistic any of this is, but I did notice one thing that was interesting. He seems to keep his chin tucked the entire time he demos. I may be wrong about this, but I was under the impression WC kept the chin raised. Are some of the lineages training with "tucked chin," or is this an example of "bad WC?"

[Neil-Y]

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQmaDIblQIiWZMJrdZE3LG7EBavNPg37 D4-QXMdmwDk7YH_dbQ_-A


He doesn't look like much a fighter to me!:)

PMSL....I quite like her atmospheric tunes ;-)

[Graham H]

If he is who guy B thinks he is, La Roux would hand everyone on this thread their backsides in both armed and un armed combat, yours and mine included :)

You may well be right but on this forum most of us don't know each other personally so why speculate?

We haven't got to the stage where people are going to start knocking on doors have we? lol

BPWT and Keith Myers will be kicking my door in soon then! :D

Ving Tsun wars! :eek:

[BPWT]

If he is who guy B thinks he is, La Roux would hand everyone on this thread their backsides in both armed and un armed combat, yours and mine included :)

Who do we think he is?

Edit: in my mind I'm hoping he's Gordon Ramsay

[Graham H]

This isn't him is it?


http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m0yxo7cz8t1r827vgo1_r1_500.jpg

[Frost]

Who do we think he is?

Edit: in my mind I'm hoping he's Gordon Ramsay
guy b seems to think its a forum member previously banned here called knifefighter, if it is then he was a 2nd degree bjj blackbelt who started out with the gracies in torrence, a highly ranked no gi grappler, an original dog brother who fought at most gathering, a student of Dan inosanto who also fought Thai for a while in Japan and who also fought vale tudo (no gloves) and MMA several times.....of course if it isn't him then even I can beat him :)

[Graham H]

.....of course if it isn't him then even I can beat him :)

............and me! :)

[BPWT]

guy b seems to think its a forum member previously banned here called knifefighter, if it is then he was a 2nd degree bjj blackbelt who started out with the gracies in torrence, a highly ranked no go grappled, an original dog brother who fought at most gathering, a student of Dan inosanto who also fought Thai for a while in Japan and who also fought vale tudo (no gloves) and MMA several times.....of course if it isn't him then even I can beat him :)

That does sound kinda badarse! :D

[LFJ]

guy b seems to think its a forum member previously banned here called knifefighter, if it is then he was a 2nd degree bjj blackbelt who started out with the gracies in torrence, a highly ranked no gi grappler, an original dog brother who fought at most gathering, a student of Dan inosanto who also fought Thai for a while in Japan and who also fought vale tudo (no gloves) and MMA several times.....of course if it isn't him then even I can beat him :)

Sounds a little too hardworking to be LaRoux the 'no evidence' troll.

[Wayfaring]

guy b seems to think its a forum member previously banned here called knifefighter, if it is then he was a 2nd degree bjj blackbelt who started out with the gracies in torrence, a highly ranked no gi grappler, an original dog brother who fought at most gathering, a student of Dan inosanto who also fought Thai for a while in Japan and who also fought vale tudo (no gloves) and MMA several times.....of course if it isn't him then even I can beat him :)

knifefighter is dale franks. Caique black belt lightweight. Amateur MMA fighter. Dog brother. Don't know if it's Laroux. if so I would love to train with him.

A few years back knifefighter, terence niehoff (similar POV), victor parlatti (TWC sifu) all got banned for arguing too much. But Gene (Ching forum owner) doesn't really ban people so since then it's been a lot of self policing the forum (sihing73 Dave does some moderation for extreme things). I don't think if those guys got a new screen name and came back it would be an issue.

[Frost]

knifefighter is dale franks. Caique black belt lightweight. Amateur MMA fighter. Dog brother. Don't know if it's Laroux. if so I would love to train with him.

A few years back knifefighter, terence niehoff (similar POV), victor parlatti (TWC sifu) all got banned for arguing too much. But Gene (Ching forum owner) doesn't really ban people so since then it's been a lot of self policing the forum (sihing73 Dave does some moderation for extreme things). I don't think if those guys got a new screen name and came back it would be an issue.

I miss the days of winding victor up :)

[m1k3]

I miss the days of winding victor up :)

If you got him and T. going at each other you had several days great reading.

:D

[k gledhill]

If you got him and T. going at each other you had several days great reading.

:D

Jpinaz signature has a great Terence Needlessposts classic remarks on chi sao.

[KPM]

I miss the days of winding victor up :)

I do miss Terrence, Victor, and some of the "old guard" that no longer seem to post here. Savri always had interesting things to say about HFY. Robert Chu would posted every so often with good info. Same with Phil Redmond. Other than those that got themselves banned for being part of the problem....some of the "old guard" likely quit coming around for the same reason that I did. I've been in and out over the years and stayed gone for a long time because I got tired of the typical crap....like a lot of things we've been seeing lately....disrepectful and sometimes just plain nasty interactions. When it gets where you can't carry on a decent discussion without someone lineage bashing and telling you how wrong you are, what's the point of even coming to the forum? It turns a lot of people off. I know many of you are saying to yourselves.....there goes Myers whining again. But I'm hoping that at some point, the message will get through. Things seemed to have calmed down and have been better for the last several days. So I'm keeping my fingers crossed! ;)

[LaRoux]

Evidence is only needed when ur trying to prove it to others, LAroux seems to want us to do this for him, sorry to break it too Laroux but that is not our responsibility, it is always urs to prove to urself that what u train in works for u. Here on the forum all we can use is words to describe our experience and thoughts on things VT related, which is a poor representative of what that acrually means for us on a personal basis, as my factual experience is only a story for u as it is related here in words.

Well, then don't be surprised when someone says they doubt what you are claiming to be able to do is true.

[Paddington]

Well, then don't be surprised when someone says they doubt what you are claiming to be able to do is true.

No, I think what what he is saying is that you need to go out and test yourself against proficient fighters from different backgrounds. It is the case of 'find out for yourself'.

[guy b.]

I've posted several examples of WC people not being able to use their principles, theories and techniques in full contact situations. Many others have also posted many examples of the same.

You are asking people to post full contact sparring clips of themselves on the forum. Have you provided such clips? Or are you still set on being a hypocrite?

[LaRoux]

You are asking people to post full contact sparring clips of themselves on the forum. Have you provided such clips? Or are you still set on being a hypocrite?

I've never said anyone needed to post full contact sparring clips of themselves. I've always said simply provide some evidence. It doesn't matter where that evidence comes from. It doesn't have to come from themselves sparring. It can be anyone providing some evidence for the claims they are claiming.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Phil Redmond is probably the only guy who has been able to provide evidence of his WC guys consistently being successful using the stuff they learn in training in full contact environments.

Alan Orr is another.

[guy b.]

Sporting or non sporting, it doesn't change the cold hard fact that they are the only ones who have provided consistent evidence of their WC actually working in full-contact situations. Everyone else has only pontificated.

Why do you care about how effective and convincing the advertising of wing chun is? Seems a bit of an odd thing to obsess about for someone that hates wing chun as much as you do.

[guy b.]

If he is who guy B thinks he is, La Roux would hand everyone on this thread their backsides in both armed and un armed combat, yours and mine included :)

I doubt it.

As to whether he is or not, I was just repeating something that someone else said. The trolling fits the mold though

[guy b.]

this isn't him is it?


http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m0yxo7cz8t1r827vgo1_r1_500.jpg

100% correct. Don't fusk with laroux!

[LaRoux]

Alan Orr is another.

Alan doesn't have evidence of WC type fighting being used successfully and consistently. The evidence from his fighters successes points much more to their grappling/groundfighting ability.

Phil has shown consistent evidence of his fighters using WC successfully in full-contact settings.

[guy b.]

I've never said anyone needed to post full contact sparring clips of themselves.

Yes you have


I've always said simply provide some evidence. It doesn't matter where that evidence comes from. It doesn't have to come from themselves sparring. It can be anyone providing some evidence for the claims they are claiming.

Here's a radical idea: maybe just don't believe the claims if you don't think there is insufficient evidence.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Alan doesn't have evidence of WC type fighting being used successfully and consistently. The evidence from his fighters successes points much more to their grappling/groundfighting ability.

Phil has shown consistent evidence of his fighters using WC successfully in full-contact settings.

Alans' guys typically do MMA.
Phils do full contact venues that are based on striking ( IIRC).

[LaRoux]

Yes you have.

You're welcome to search my post history to find this. You won't because you are wrong and/or a liar.

[LaRoux]

Alans' guys typically do MMA.
Phils do full contact venues that are based on striking ( IIRC).

It may be the venue, but Alan's guys still haven't shown WC being used effectively in winning their fights.

[sanjuro_ronin]

It may be the venue, but Alan's guys still haven't shown WC being used effectively in winning their fights.

Disagree, but to each his own.
Alan's guys fight the way they train THEIR WC.

[Frost]

I doubt it.

As to whether he is or not, I was just repeating something that someone else said. The trolling fits the mold though

really you actually stated the following with some authority

Laroux is knifefighter
and now you are saying all you were doing was simply repeating gossip, again accuracy really isnt your strong point is it

[Frost]

I do miss Terrence, Victor, and some of the "old guard" that no longer seem to post here. Savri always had interesting things to say about HFY. Robert Chu would posted every so often with good info. Same with Phil Redmond. Other than those that got themselves banned for being part of the problem....some of the "old guard" likely quit coming around for the same reason that I did. I've been in and out over the years and stayed gone for a long time because I got tired of the typical crap....like a lot of things we've been seeing lately....disrepectful and sometimes just plain nasty interactions. When it gets where you can't carry on a decent discussion without someone lineage bashing and telling you how wrong you are, what's the point of even coming to the forum? It turns a lot of people off. I know many of you are saying to yourselves.....there goes Myers whining again. But I'm hoping that at some point, the message will get through. Things seemed to have calmed down and have been better for the last several days. So I'm keeping my fingers crossed! ;)

its what the internet is for, arguing and throwing insults not discussing anything in a rational manner.
Its no surprise that the longest and post popular threads were those that involved Terrance, victor and knifefighter, or that when they were banned the posting count and number of members viewing dropped alarmingly, the same happened on the main board when lkfmdc got himself banned, people love to argue and insult each others style and lineage , and others love to read about it, hence actual threads about technique last about a page, but threads insulting someones lineage last 10 or so :) and even the good posters then disappear as the place isnt as fun anymore
the only reason the wing chun forum isnt a dead as the other ones is the PB crowd are over here looking for a fight :)

[guy b.]

really you actually stated the following with some authority

and now you are saying all you were doing was simply repeating gossip, again accuracy really isnt your strong point is it

I accurately repeated something that someone else said. Everything on a forum is gossip.

[Paddington]

You are asking people to post full contact sparring clips of themselves on the forum. Have you provided such clips? Or are you still set on being a hypocrite?

Give me a few months to finish the body conditioning and I will try to oblige people on this. I know you are not directing it at me but hey, perhaps others will follow after.

[guy b.]

You're welcome to search my post history to find this. You won't because you are wrong and/or a liar.

lol, you are actually a grade A moron



Clips of you free sparring with the things you have learned from the PB lineage.

[guy b.]

If he is who guy B thinks he is, La Roux would hand everyone on this thread their backsides in both armed and un armed combat, yours and mine included :)

Why would anyone be scared of tiny frail oap Dale Franks who has a penchant for diving on the ground at the feet of any attacker and zero discernible striking skills? I think even BPWT would break the old guy in half with the first punch.

[Frost]

Why would anyone be scared of tiny frail oap Dale Franks who has a penchant for diving on the ground at the feet of any attacker and zero discernible striking skills? I think even BPWT would break the old guy in half with the first punch.
im pretty sure if you faced dale you would crap your pants, but to be fair i think youd do that when facing anyone :)

And again accuracy was never your strong point was it, are you repeating gossip again or having your own thoughts for once :):)

dale posted clips of himself in vale tudo and MMA matches which showed good striking and very nice use of the clinch to hit out of, he posted these clips when goaded into doing so by people on this forum with an attitude such as yours, he then took them down when no one else on the wing chun forum (who had been arguing with him and calling what was a friendly exchange with the student of another forum member an actual fight,) could post similar clips. So did you see his clips or are you again tlaking out of your butt

[Frost]

I accurately repeated something that someone else said. Everything on a forum is gossip.

you stated it as a fact, but again you seem to have a problem with accuracy and go into denial after being found out :)

[guy b.]

you stated it as a fact, but again you seem to have a problem with accuracy and being fund out :)

I have no problem in stating that I accurately repeated gossip that I heard on this forum. I don't remember stating that what I wrote was a fact. Laroux is Knifefighter is what I read and I repeated it.

[guy b.]

im pretty sure if you faced dale you would crap your pants, but to be fair i think youd do that when facing anyone :)

And again accuracy was never your strong point was it, are you repeating gossip again or having your own thoughts for once :):)

dale posted clips of himself in vale tudo and MMA matches which showed good striking and very nice use of the clinch to hit out of, he posted these clips when goaded into doing so by people on this forum with an attitude such as yours, he then took them down when no one else on the wing chun forum (who had been arguing with him and calling what was a friendly exchange with the student of another forum member an actual fight,) could post similar clips. So did you see his clips or are you again tlaking out of your butt

I'm sure I could beat Dale Franks in a fight. He can't punch and he is old. His bjj is average at best. What's to worry about?

[guy b.]

you stated it as a fact, but again you seem to have a problem with accuracy and go into denial after being found out :)

I'm not denying or hiding anything. Laroux is Knifefighter. That's what I heard.

[Frost]

I'm sure I could beat Dale Franks in a fight. He can't punch and he is old. His bjj is average at best. What's to worry about?

so again did you see the clips (since you know he cant punch im sure you did), or are you again repeating what others have told you? simple question yes or know

And since his BJJ is average at best im assuming you have a better competition track record, and have your own bjj blackbelt??

[Frost]

I'm not denying or hiding anything. Laroux is Knifefighter. That's what I heard.

no you didnt say thats what you heard you said and i quote

Laroux is knifefighter
not "ive heard that", or "someone said" or "theres a rumour that", you said point blank

Laroux is knifefighter if thats not a point blank statement then WTF is

[guy b.]

so again did you see the clips (since you know he cant punch im sure you did), or are you again repeating what others have told you? simple question yes or know

And since his BJJ is average at best im assuming you have a better competition track record, and have your own bjj blackbelt??

I've seen Dale Franks sparring. Nothing to worry about. He is tiny, slow and old and can't punch. I am large, fast and young and can punch very hard.

In terms of bjj belt level Dale Franks has a darker coloured belt than me. But the difference in age, size and athleticism is such that I can't see it making a difference. I would fold him up and choke him out or break his little arm like a twig. He would be better off standing up, at least it would be quick.

[guy b.]

no you didnt say thats what you heard you said and i quote

not "ive heard that", or "someone said" or "theres a rumour that", you said point blank
if thats not a point blank statement then WTF is

I accurately repeated what I heard on the forum. The context can be gleaned by reading the thread. You probably just jumped in to troll, right?

[anerlich]

Yet someone from his lineage is the only one who is able to provide evidence of his fighters winning consistently using the WC he has taught them. Interesting.

Rick Spain and his students haven't done badly in ring fights, both kickboxing and MMA.

I don't understand the Alan Orr hate here. With little competition evidence to back up most of you guy's, including the PB crowd's, claims of WC/VT badassness, except Alan, you guys ought to be hanging off his rep like leeches.

Claims of 40 "streetfights" or a few months throwing drunks out of a bar don't count.

[guy b.]

I don't understand the Alan Orr hate here.

I think it stems from his wing chun not appearing at all similar to the wing chun that most other people do, and in some cases appearing not to hold to the wing chun principles. I guess Alan's arrogance also doesn't help. People would be cheering if it looked anything like what they did themselves. But it looks very different. This is also the root of the hate between the PB group and the others- they do something different and are very sure of themselves.

[anerlich]

I guess Alan's arrogance also doesn't help.

LOL. GMAB. Arrogance and false confidence are endemic here.

Unlike the rest, including the confident PB crowd, Alan can point to competition results.

[guy b.]

Unlike the rest, including the confident PB crowd, Alan can point to competition results.

He can point to results in some comps. But he can't point to much that looks like what people believe wing chun to look like. This is his main problem, and to a lesser extent the problem for the PB group. People want to see something that looks like what they do. It is human nature.

[KPM]

its what the internet is for, arguing and throwing insults not discussing anything in a rational manner.
Its no surprise that the longest and post popular threads were those that involved Terrance, victor and knifefighter, or that when they were banned the posting count and number of members viewing dropped alarmingly, the same happened on the main board when lkfmdc got himself banned, people love to argue and insult each others style and lineage , and others love to read about it, hence actual threads about technique last about a page, but threads insulting someones lineage last 10 or so :) and even the good posters then disappear as the place isnt as fun anymore
the only reason the wing chun forum isnt a dead as the other ones is the PB crowd are over here looking for a fight :)

I think you nailed it Frost! Sounds pretty accurate to me. ;)

[k gledhill]

He can point to results in some comps. But he can't point to much that looks like what people believe wing chun to look like. This is his main problem, and to a lesser extent the problem for the PB group. People want to see something that looks like what they do. It is human nature.

We use what we develop as a fighting method. No need to make youtubes explaining why our vt isn't visible like ykw ; )

[YouKnowWho]

its what the internet is for, arguing and throwing insults not discussing anything in a rational manner.
Its no surprise that the longest and post popular threads were those that involved Terrance, victor and knifefighter, or that when they were banned the posting count and number of members viewing dropped alarmingly, the same happened on the main board when lkfmdc got himself banned, people love to argue and insult each others style and lineage , and others love to read about it, hence actual threads about technique last about a page, but threads insulting someones lineage last 10 or so :) and even the good posters then disappear as the place isnt as fun anymore
the only reason the wing chun forum isnt a dead as the other ones is the PB crowd are over here looking for a fight :)

If knifefighter is still here today, I think I will agree with him more and more everyday. I used to think that I should have the duty to protect the honor of the TCMA. Whenever some MMA guy attacked the TCMA, I wanted to be on the frontline (that was why I had head on collision with KF). After I have seen so many TCMA guys have such strong "style boundary" in mind and not willing to "evolve", I started to feel that some MMA guys may have valid point about TCMA after all.

[anerlich]

But he can't point to much that looks like what people believe wing chun to look like. This is his main problem

I don't think Alan regards that as a problem, or cares about what you, the other forum police, or anyone else believes about what Wing Chun should look like.

Most people on here have far greater problems with credibility than does Alan Orr.

[anerlich]

Its no surprise that the longest and post popular threads were those that involved Terrance, victor and knifefighter, or that when they were banned the posting count and number of members viewing dropped alarmingly, the same happened on the main board when lkfmdc got himself banned, people love to argue and insult each others style and lineage , and others love to read about it, hence actual threads about technique last about a page, but threads insulting someones lineage last 10 or so and even the good posters then disappear as the place isnt as fun anymore

I don't think knifefighter got banned, did he?

I agree he had some great input coming from a wide range of real experience.


the PB crowd are over here looking for a fight

More about trying to get more people to drink the kool-aid, I think. You don't get people to fight by boring them to death with hundreds of chi sao clips.

[anerlich]

I should have the duty to protect the honor of the TCMA.

You have to ask yourself what honor there is worth protecting.

The main criticism of TCMAers on this forum comes from its own kind. WC guys putting down other WC guys, even WSL guys putting down other WSL guys.

Faced with this internecine squabbling, small wonder that nontraditional MAists, and anyone else able to think critically, brand us as idiots.

[YouKnowWho]

You have to ask yourself what honor there is worth protecting.

The main criticism of TCMAers on this forum comes from its own kind. WC guys putting down other WC guys, even WSL guys putting down other WSL guys.

Faced with this internecine squabbling, small wonder that nontraditional MAists, and anyone else able to think critically, brand us as idiots.

You are absolute right. In another TCMA form, people still believe that one should lie down on the couch and masturbate for 10 years before he is ready and qualified to have sex with any girl. I just don't want to be any part of it.

[KPM]

I don't think Alan regards that as a problem, or cares about what you, the other forum police, or anyone else believes about what Wing Chun should look like.

Most people on here have far greater problems with credibility than does Alan Orr.

Truth there!!! :)

[KPM]

You have to ask yourself what honor there is worth protecting.

The main criticism of TCMAers on this forum comes from its own kind. WC guys putting down other WC guys, even WSL guys putting down other WSL guys.

Faced with this internecine squabbling, small wonder that nontraditional MAists, and anyone else able to think critically, brand us as idiots.

You're on a roll Andrew! Like it. ;)

[Frost]

I've seen Dale Franks sparring. Nothing to worry about. He is tiny, slow and old and can't punch. I am large, fast and young and can punch very hard.

In terms of bjj belt level Dale Franks has a darker coloured belt than me. But the difference in age, size and athleticism is such that I can't see it making a difference. I would fold him up and choke him out or break his little arm like a twig. He would be better off standing up, at least it would be quick.

so that's a no you haven't seen his fighting clips then, nor his grappling clips thought as much keep deluding yourself though its fun to read :)

[guy b.]

I don't think Alan regards that as a problem, or cares about what you, the other forum police, or anyone else believes about what Wing Chun should look like.

Most people on here have far greater problems with credibility than does Alan Orr.

It wasn't a question of whether Alan cares or not. It was a question of your not understanding the Alan Orr hate on the forum. The reason for it is that Alan does something substantially different from what everyone else does and so they can't identify with it. This is his "problem" in terms of perception of him of this forum

[Frost]

Rick Spain and his students haven't done badly in ring fights, both kickboxing and MMA.

I don't understand the Alan Orr hate here. With little competition evidence to back up most of you guy's, including the PB crowd's, claims of WC/VT badassness, except Alan, you guys ought to be hanging off his rep like leeches.

Claims of 40 "streetfights" or a few months throwing drunks out of a bar don't count.

its jealousy....and its the same reason they have a go at Phipps clips because they can't post any from their own lineage so all they can say is its not real wing chun, it makes them feel better I suppose. Its amazing that the two lineages always questioned on here, Roberts and William cheungs are the only two that have students that consistantly show clips of their art in action in full contact limited rules competitions. Oh and dale got banned last year in the big kull gene had, its a shame because he had walked the walk unlike a lot of the people that hated him.

[guy b.]

so that's a no you haven't seen his fighting clips then, nor his grappling clips thought as much keep deluding yourself though its fun to read :)

I have seen Dale Franks sparring. I wasn't impressed in the way you are.

[k gledhill]

its jealousy....and its the same reason they have a go at Phipps clips because they can't post any from their own lineage so all they can say is its not real wing chun, it makes them feel better I suppose. Its amazing that the two lineages always questioned on here, Roberts and William cheungs are the only two that have students that consistantly show clips of their art in action in full contact limited rules competitions. Oh and dale got banned last year in the big kull gene had, its a shame because he had walked the walk unlike a lot of the people that hated him.

And we don't give a flying fcuk about your uninformed opinions either , strange that ; )
Frost doesn't approve ! Oh no !!! Lmao.

[k gledhill]

I have seen Dale Franks sparring. I wasn't impressed in the way you are.

Dale isn't laopinionatedbiasedprejudicedwankeroux, in my experience guys with high levels of ability don't make uninformed opinions like ykw.

[Graham H]

Seriously!?!?!? Wow. Wonder why. Any details? Was it a dude named koviljac? He got his entire clan to leave and follow PB? Wonder if he had a falling out with william cheung...

He discovered WC was a lying cheat and left. He joined PB because in his opinion he was in a different league to anybody else out there.

He is not shy in giving his opinion. He will say exactly the same as all of our group.

Coincidence ? I don't think so

[Graham H]

Wow. That must have sucked for him to realize this after years and lots of $ invested. Good for him though...its cool that his thirst for good Wing Chun doesnt stop him on his journey. Thx for the info.

It sucked for all of us mate :)

[Wayfaring]

I have seen Dale Franks sparring. I wasn't impressed in the way you are.

He is an amateur fighter who has only had a few fights, presumably because of age. So he's not going to look like Jose Aldo. And he's presumably retired from amateur fights. In BJJ the first guard guys under Caique are pretty tough. Another example of this is Mauricio Zingano, whose wife Kat beat Meisha Tate and was supposed to be coaching TUF this season but blew out a knee. She has a title fight against Rousey coming up after recovery. I haven't seen competition grappling footage of Dale, but he has won like masters BB lightweight in some comps I saw - local California comps. But don't underestimate - California has LOTS of grapplers.

The only real uniqueness here is Dale did some light sparring with one of Redmond's sifus Rashan that had some clips circulating. Nothing earth shattering, but he did do some basic takedowns like a low single, and Rashan scrambled and got up from under mount. But again, light sparring.

Why this is unique I have no clue other than it seems to be one of the only known instances of sparring between a WCK guy and someone with cage experience that has video.

I wouldn't be running my mouth a lot over Dale. I'm sure Caique could easily produce someone in your weight class to accommodate you.

[Frost]

I have seen Dale Franks sparring. I wasn't impressed in the way you are.
I was impressed with his full contact fighting clips I never mentioned his sparring :)
so that's a no on seeing the fighting clips then??
I know you have trouble with reading accuratly what others have written so just to make sure you understand what im asking let me try again.... I am asking about his clips of him fighting have you see them, if not how else can you judge his ability to strike and fight since the sparring clip was a light drilling session working rashans ability to stop takedowns in a friendly setting??

[guy b.]

He is an amateur fighter who has only had a few fights, presumably because of age. So he's not going to look like Jose Aldo. And he's presumably retired from amateur fights. In BJJ the first guard guys under Caique are pretty tough. Another example of this is Mauricio Zingano, whose wife Kat beat Meisha Tate and was supposed to be coaching TUF this season but blew out a knee. She has a title fight against Rousey coming up after recovery. I haven't seen competition grappling footage of Dale, but he has won like masters BB lightweight in some comps I saw - local California comps. But don't underestimate - California has LOTS of grapplers.

The only real uniqueness here is Dale did some light sparring with one of Redmond's sifus Rashan that had some clips circulating. Nothing earth shattering, but he did do some basic takedowns like a low single, and Rashan scrambled and got up from under mount. But again, light sparring.

Why this is unique I have no clue other than it seems to be one of the only known instances of sparring between a WCK guy and someone with cage experience that has video.

I wouldn't be running my mouth a lot over Dale. I'm sure Caique could easily produce someone in your weight class to accommodate you.

I know Dale Franks is a solid grappler. That isn't at issue. I'm replying to Frost's hysterical hero worshiping of the guy and attempts to scare using his reputation. I know I could beat Franks because I have seen him sparring and grappling and I am too big and young for him. That's just a fact.

Whether Franks is Knifefighter I don't know. Whether Laroux is Knifefighter is also uncertain. Somebody claimed he was which is what I repeated. What I do know is that both Knifefighter and Laroux are complete ar$eholes with nothing but hatred for wing chun. If Dale Franks is one of these internet aliases then he is also an ar$ehole. He doesn't get a free pass on this due to being a better than average grappler.

[guy b.]

I was impressed with his full contact fighting clips I never mentioned his sparring :)
so that's a no on seeing the fighting clips then??
I know you have trouble with reading accuratly what others have written so just to make sure you understand what im asking let me try again.... I am asking about his clips of him fighting have you see them, if not how else can you judge his ability to strike and fight since the sparring clip was a light drilling session working rashans ability to stop takedowns in a friendly setting??

I have seen a clip of what looked like amateur level mma or grapple and strike with Dale Franks. I wouldn't call that "fighting", it was a sporting event. I wasn't impressed by his striking ability. What else can I say? Almost anyone seriously training striking will be better than Dale Franks in this skill set.

[LFJ]

Is this the Dale Franks/ LaRoux in question?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i8PK8j_Y5Xs

LaRoux has been speaking highly of Phil R.'s people, who he's in the clip with. But... I'm not really impressed with anything he did in that clip. Seems to be a sport grappler used to playing with rules, doing things that'd easily get him jacked up.

[Frost]

Is this the Dale Franks/ LaRoux in question?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i8PK8j_Y5Xs

LaRoux has been speaking highly of Phil R.'s people, who he's in the clip with. But... I'm not really impressed with anything he did in that clip. Seems to be a sport grappler used to playing with rules, doing things that'd easily get him jacked up.

that's dale yes, and when that clip was posted people jumped all over it until two things happened 1) Phil came on to say it was a simple light session for rashan to test his takedown abilities in a very light limited friendly get together and 2) dale put a clip up of himself which showed both sports grappling, mma and valetudo (no gloves very limited rules) matches and dog brother gathering where he fought stick on stick and blade on blade
if he is a sports grappler then he is one who has also fought vale tudo, mma and is a founding dog brother used to fighting mma bouts with weapons.

[KPM]

It wasn't a question of whether Alan cares or not. It was a question of your not understanding the Alan Orr hate on the forum. The reason for it is that Alan does something substantially different from what everyone else does and so they can't identify with it. This is his "problem" in terms of perception of him of this forum

Just thought I'd share! :) Let Alan speak for himself:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PhownwwVHdA

[anerlich]

This is his "problem" in terms of perception of him of this forum

So he has no problem at all then. Other than with a bunch of opinionated nonachievers.

[anerlich]

I am large, fast and young and can punch very hard.

"arrogant" and "stupid" seem to have got left off that list.

[Eric_H]

You are absolute right. In another TCMA form, people still believe that one should lie down on the couch and masturbate for 10 years before he is ready and qualified to have sex with any girl. I just don't want to be any part of it.

That's hilarious

[GlennR]

It wasn't a question of whether Alan cares or not. It was a question of your not understanding the Alan Orr hate on the forum. The reason for it is that Alan does something substantially different from what everyone else does and so they can't identify with it. This is his "problem" in terms of perception of him of this forum

Perception for some. Yep, Alan can be pretty arrogant (he sounds like a PB fan boy sometimes except singing a different tune), but i can see the WC in what he does.

His structure and power delivery are fairly obvious to me

[GlennR]

That's hilarious

It was pretty good

[GlennR]

"arrogant" and "stupid" seem to have got left off that list.

To quote Homer Simpson, he's also.... "Powerful Like a Gorilla, Yet Soft and Yielding Like a Nerf Ball"

[guy b.]

"arrogant" and "stupid" seem to have got left off that list.

I don't agree. I'm nowhere near a top notch sports fighter and would lose to most in my weight division most of the time. Sports fighting is their job. It is not mine and I am under no delusions of greatness.

I do know who Dale Franks is though and I know he is too old and small to beat me in a fight given that my striking is much better than his plus I have good judo and bjj experience which negates the strong part of his game. This is just physical reality.

Before reading on this forum that Dale Franks is Laroux I would have had respect for his experience and would have been open to hearing his opinions, especially on grappling.

If he really is Laroux then while I still respect that his commitment to bjj over the years I no longer have any respect for his general opinions on MA given the constant trolling that Laroux does here on the forum and the closed mind and lack of experience he displays in every post.

[Wayfaring]

I don't agree. I'm nowhere near a top notch sports fighter and would lose to most in my weight division most of the time. Sports fighting is their job. It is not mine and I am under no delusions of greatness.

I do know who Dale Franks is though and I know he is too old and small to beat me in a fight given that my striking is much better than his plus I have good judo and bjj experience which negates the strong part of his game. This is just physical reality.

Before reading on this forum that Dale Franks is Laroux I would have had respect for his experience and would have been open to hearing his opinions, especially on grappling.

If he really is Laroux then while I still respect that his commitment to bjj over the years I no longer have any respect for his general opinions on MA given the constant trolling that Laroux does here on the forum and the closed mind and lack of experience he displays in every post.

Yah I don't think Laroux is Dale. But the knifefighter screen name certainly was. Anyways why are we talking about him other than to hear how tough you think you are? I mean your opinions on this forum haven't been exactly the epitome of mature content when it comes to trolling either.

I mean most of those guys who don't post anymore I don't think are losing sleep over it and would probably say this forum hasn't changed.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Rick Spain and his students haven't done badly in ring fights, both kickboxing and MMA.

I don't understand the Alan Orr hate here. With little competition evidence to back up most of you guy's, including the PB crowd's, claims of WC/VT badassness, except Alan, you guys ought to be hanging off his rep like leeches.

Claims of 40 "streetfights" or a few months throwing drunks out of a bar don't count.

Alan has never shy'ed away from the fact that His WC is HIS and is based on Robert Chu's system ( which is a hybrid system also IIRC).
Why on earth would Alan's WC look like anyone elses WC?
It looks like it has to based on what it is trying to accomplish:
Combat ( sport and street) effectiveness in THIS day and age VS OTHER MA.

[JPinAZ]

I mean most of those guys who don't post anymore I don't think are losing sleep over it and would probably say this forum hasn't changed.

Don't kid yourself - it's getting worse by the day :P

[k gledhill]

A new member said hello and 3000 views later ; ) ends up as a discussion about who's really on first, what's on second and I don't knows on third. That's what I said who's on first ? ... Yes... Huh, and so on. .... . ; )

[sanjuro_ronin]

A new member said hello and 3000 views later ; ) ends up as a discussion about who's really on first, what's on second and I don't knows on third. That's what I said who's on first ? ... Yes... Huh, and so on. .... . ; )

Welcome to the WC forum.

[k gledhill]

Welcome to the WC forum.

What do you mean by that ? Whatever dude ! ;)

[LaRoux]

Alan has never shy'ed away from the fact that His WC is HIS and is based on Robert Chu's system ( which is a hybrid system also IIRC).
Why on earth would Alan's WC look like anyone elses WC?
It looks like it has to based on what it is trying to accomplish:
Combat ( sport and street) effectiveness in THIS day and age VS OTHER MA.

I don't think it is the most efficient way to go about getting WC to be more effective, but I would agree with this statement.

[YouKnowWho]

Why on earth would Alan's WC look like anyone elses WC?

If Alan wants WC to be his, what change did he make, and why?

[Sihing73]

If Alan wants WC to be his, what change did he make, and why?

I have always said that WC is a highly personal art, although some would disagree.
I feel WC will be adapted to ones own physical, mental and even spiritual uniqueness.

If I am wrong then I am waiting for the superior cookie cutter system which produces advocates who all do things the same way.

Shoot, even from WSL there are differences.....................though rumor has it that only one of his students got it right. :D Don't believe me? Just ask some of the members of a certain cult who post here..........over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over. ;)

[sihing]

WC is "highly" personal, because it about development, not about expression or application.

I have Alan's video's, he's good and brings forth some great ideas, but the expression of it is personal and looks like any other striking art.

The person learning develops the skill set he is providing, then uses it anyways they choose, so development and application is separate. I'm never interested in seeing the shapes of tan, fok, bong, pak in the application as that would mean the user is "trying" to display the development or style, not use it.

Someone attacks me, I attack them, using whatever is available to me to use, I don't care what it looks like or how it comes out, it is just the development of my tools was done so thru VT training..

James

[anerlich]

I would have had respect for his experience and would have been open to hearing his opinions, especially on grappling.

I doubt whether either he or Alan Orr care whether you respect them or not.


I do know who Dale Franks is though and I know he is too old and small to beat me in a fight given that my striking is much better than his plus I have good judo and bjj experience which negates the strong part of his game. This is just physical reality.

WTF. Have you got a match set up with Dale? Does he know of your existence?

Unless you're going to have a deathmatch with Dale anytime soon, please stop with this line of bullsh*t. You could probably beat Muhammad Ali in his current condition, and certainly beat Bruce Lee in his, but SFW?

[Graham H]

Shoot, even from WSL there are differences.....................though rumor has it that only one of his students got it right. :D Don't believe me? Just ask some of the members of a certain cult who post here..........over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over. ;)

Well you know what they say when people have to be told the same thing over and over and over and over and over?..................................they are thick! :)