View Full Version : Isolation Training
We've been going round and round on this topic on other threads. So I thought I would try to make it clear what I'm talking about to clarify, and also present the topic for those who haven't been following the other threads.
A basic premise in modern sports science is that you need to isolate a physical movement to develop and perfect it. An example is a tennis player that is having trouble with his or her backhand. A good coach will take that player aside, feed them the ball over and over and make them focus on and work on their backhand until it improves. Then the player takes it back into his or her game in a more random fashion. Our colleagues in combat sports do this all the time as well. Boxers work on drills to develop their jab....everything from practicing against a stationary heavy bag, to practicing against a moving partner using a focus mitt, to practicing against a partner actively trying to hit them. I'm sure we can all think of similar examples from BJJ, MMA, and Thai boxing. The idea is to isolate a skill or technique you want to work on in a 1:1 drill format so you can really concentrate on it. Of course the danger of taking this too far is that you can get "motorset." In other words, you have memorized a specific response to a specific attack. Then in application the opponent doesn't do exactly what you expect and you "freeze" momentarily because you don't have a response for it. So you have to mix up the training, start specific and then make it more and more random. And then you have to go back and put it into a "live" situation like sparring or Chi Sau. It is part of progressive development. I'm wondering how many people train their Wing Chun this way? Here are some examples of people that do:
From Duncan Leung’s lineage:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3UlBm7PJlWs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qr1cdWIbcpc
From Alan Orr:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yjd3abCoiaA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hghI_aLTkvI
From Ernie Barrios:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_euVrjyso54
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fZQP3ig3seI
Before anyone gets all excited, keep in mind that these are drills meant to develop specific techniques and attributes. This is not fighting. But this is how fighters train.
k gledhill
09-28-2013, 06:39 AM
Pass , starter for 10 please. : )
Pass , starter for 10 please. : )
That's right. You PB guys don't believe in Isolation Drills. Not sure why. Was hoping you'd elaborate. But you didn't even watch the video examples. I know, because your response came much too soon after I made the original post.
k gledhill
09-28-2013, 07:03 AM
That's right. You PB guys don't believe in Isolation Drills. Not sure why. Was hoping you'd elaborate. But you didn't even watch the video examples. I know, because your response came much too soon after I made the original post.
I don't need to watch them to understand me ; )
k gledhill
09-28-2013, 07:14 AM
Again you're missing the point. You're case is that you can train anything in isolation and hey presto it's vt because it has a tan and a bong in there. And if a guy does a jab we can spend two hours responding with ? Until its memorized then move onto version 4467 , 4468 , etc....
There is another way. : )
For me, Kevin is correct and... so too is KPM.
If you 'only' train isolation drills, you're screwed if you face something that doesn't relate to the drills you learned (so here I fully agree with Kevin).
But equally, incorporating isolation drills into your training (in addition to Chi Sau, Lap Sau, Lat Sau and Sparring), can help you work on the specifics found in relation to how we make the system's concepts something real (i.e. Physical) - so here I'm on the same page as Keith.
Being fed punches so you can work on, say, Pak Sau is not just isolating the Pak Sau - the specifics you're working on are the Pak motion, intercepting, closing distance, timing, angling, closing lines of attack, etc. You could also use it to maintain focus on elbow position, facing and re-facing, footwork, etc.
If you train punching a heavy bag (I saw a clip of PB training like this), this too is an isolation drill. The cycle seen in the Lap Sau exercise is an isolation drill too - only one where variables are inserted.
Wayfaring
09-28-2013, 09:19 AM
We've been going round and round on this topic on other threads. So I thought I would try to make it clear what I'm talking about to clarify, and also present the topic for those who haven't been following the other threads.
Sure, man. Everybody isolates a movement or series of movements and trains them. Most people refer to this as "drilling". I haven't heard a lot out there naming this "isolation drills", although that is what "drilling" does. In HFY there is a whole learning track based on a "san sau" format, which is basically training up a fighter through a series of drills. We even distinguish unique names for the first form (either SLT or SNT) based upon whether you are training the system concepts or san sau concepts (training fighting).
On of the keys in "drilling" is to isolate a portion of a fight (free sparring exchange) and train from that a specific pathway. This is quite different from the myriad of "one-step response" videos out there where some unsuspecting fool throws a fake haymaker then gets 8 techniques as a response.
So I don't think it's the concept of "drilling" that's getting argued here, as you would have to be an idiot to never do any drilling at all. It's WHAT you are drilling. Meaning it has to have applicability in a real exchange.
k gledhill
09-28-2013, 09:49 AM
Sure, man. Everybody isolates a movement or series of movements and trains them. Most people refer to this as "drilling". I haven't heard a lot out there naming this "isolation drills", although that is what "drilling" does. In HFY there is a whole learning track based on a "san sau" format, which is basically training up a fighter through a series of drills. We even distinguish unique names for the first form (either SLT or SNT) based upon whether you are training the system concepts or san sau concepts (training fighting).
On of the keys in "drilling" is to isolate a portion of a fight (free sparring exchange) and train from that a specific pathway. This is quite different from the myriad of "one-step response" videos out there where some unsuspecting fool throws a fake haymaker then gets 8 techniques as a response.
So I don't think it's the concept of "drilling" that's getting argued here, as you would have to be an idiot to never do any drilling at all. It's WHAT you are drilling. Meaning it has to have applicability in a real exchange.
Yes, our ID encompass our conceptual approach. I can then go and fight anyone using this approach and not be style bound expecting a punch a certain way or everyone throw a jab the same way.
There are varying skill levels in all fighters-humans.
A basic premise in modern sports science is that you need to isolate a physical movement to develop and perfect it. An example is a tennis player that is having trouble with his or her backhand. A good coach will take that player aside, feed them the ball over and over and make them focus on and work on their backhand until it improves. Then the player takes it back into his or her game in a more random fashion.
The main problem with this analogy is that the tennis player is not put into danger by isolating a backhand and then working it into their game as a conditioned response to a specific situation. There is only one ball on the court.
Whereas, for the VT practitioner a conditioned response can lead to miscalculations and injury, as can just thinking about applying certain techniques for certain situations without having conditioned them. There is simply no time to be thinking about what you want to or should apply.
If you have to think, it's too late. If you plan ahead, things likely won't work out the way you envision. If you condition a response, you may miscalculate or be caught with a feint. That's the main problem with the approach of trying to apply 'Wing Chun techniques'. On the other hand, these risks are not present with a conceptual, instinctive approach.
This is less the case within other martial arts you mention because they are using techniques designed to do what they do, and they do it well. It is a problem in the Wing Chun world because people turn 'techniques' into 'applications' that are actually misinterpretations and misuses of the actions to begin with. So you usually end up with a mess of hypothetical 'techniques' that only work with other likeminded, equally ignorant training partners and are guaranteed to fail at speed.
Boxers and Muay Thai fighters do what they do well, and that's fine. VT just has a different approach to fighting. Those who don't know any better look at it incorrectly and use training methods from other arts that don't mix. As a result you have an application-based system with actions that are not meant to be used that way. How effective do you expect that to be?
YouKnowWho
09-28-2013, 10:24 AM
From what I have read on this form so far, some people just don't want to go beyond the boundary of their WC forms. Since all the principles and techniques in the forms can be trained by sticky hand. They may feel that's all they need.
For example, since the "foot sweep" is not in the WC forms, they don't want to train it, and they don't need that partner training drill.
If you live in San Francisco, you my not need a car. Since you don't need a car, you don't need to learn how to drive. If you stay in San Francisco for the rest of your life, there will be no problem. The day that you have to live outside of San Francisco, you may feel handicap.
from what i have read on this form so far, some people just don't want to go beyond the boundary of their wc forms. Since all the principles and techniques in the forms can be trained by sticky hand. They may feel that's all they need.
For example, since the "foot sweep" is not in the wc forms, they don't want to train it, and they don't need that partner training drill.
这只不过是你的错觉。。。
YouKnowWho
09-28-2013, 10:49 AM
这只不过是你的错觉。。。
If you don't mind to go beyond the boundary of your forms, and if you want to train "foot sweep", how will you train it? From sparring? Since the foot sweep will require:
- timing,
- opportunity,
- angle,
- force,
- balance.
It's impossible for anyone to be able to "develop" his "foot sweep" skill from sparring only.
Again you're missing the point. You're case is that you can train anything in isolation and hey presto it's vt because it has a tan and a bong in there. And if a guy does a jab we can spend two hours responding with ? Until its memorized then move onto version 4467 , 4468 , etc....
There is another way. : )
If you actually watched the video examples you'd see that that isn't at all what they are doing. But....Whatever Dude! :rolleyes:
If you 'only' train isolation drills, you're screwed if you face something that doesn't relate to the drills you learned (so here I fully agree with Kevin).
.
But I clearly outlined in my original post that that is NOT what I meant.
Yes, our ID encompass our conceptual approach. I can then go and fight anyone using this approach and not be style bound expecting a punch a certain way or everyone throw a jab the same way.
There are varying skill levels in all fighters-humans.
That's funny. Because on the other thread you guys were vehemently arguing that you DON'T do isolation drills, or 1:1 techniques, or applications.....which are all essentially the same thing.
Sure, man. Everybody isolates a movement or series of movements and trains them. Most people refer to this as "drilling".
Well, maybe not everybody. ;)
I haven't heard a lot out there naming this "isolation drilling", although that is what "drilling" does.
Yeah, I made up the term "isolation trianing" myself to try to make it clearer what I was talking about on the other thread.
In HFY there is a whole learning track based on a "san sau" format, which is basically training up a fighter through a series of drills.
Cool! I'm assuming these are progressive drills that take one through an increasingly realistic application of the technique, concept or attribute?
On of the keys in "drilling" is to isolate a portion of a fight (free sparring exchange) and train from that a specific pathway. This is quite different from the myriad of "one-step response" videos out there where some unsuspecting fool throws a fake haymaker then gets 8 techniques as a response.
Yes, I agree. Any isolation training needs to keep realistic application in mind. I think the videos I posted mostly support that idea.
k gledhill
09-28-2013, 02:40 PM
That's funny. Because on the other thread you guys were vehemently arguing that you DON'T do isolation drills, or 1:1 techniques, or applications.....which are all essentially the same thing.
Look you keep going with that idea and knock yourself out. Happy drilling.
Whereas, for the VT practitioner a conditioned response can lead to miscalculations and injury, as can just thinking about applying certain techniques for certain situations without having conditioned them. There is simply no time to be thinking about what you want to or should apply.
If you have to think, it's too late. If you plan ahead, things likely won't work out the way you envision. If you condition a response, you may miscalculate or be caught with a feint. That's the main problem with the approach of trying to apply 'Wing Chun techniques'. On the other hand, these risks are not present with a conceptual, instinctive approach.
Wow. You really don't get it, do you? I addressed that very issue in my original post. Boxers don't have problems with that. MMA fighters don't have problems with that. Why should Wing Chun fighters have problems with that?
This is less the case within other martial arts you mention because they are using techniques designed to do what they do, and they do it well.
So you don't use Wing Chun techniques the way they are designed to be used?
Boxers and Muay Thai fighters do what they do well, and that's fine. VT just has a different approach to fighting. Those who don't know any better look at it incorrectly and use training methods from other arts that don't mix
Seems the Wing Chun guys in the vids I posted have a similar approach to fighting as Boxers and Muay Thai fighters....at least as far as some of their training methods. And it seems that they are mixing these "training methods from other arts" into their routine quite well! Are you saying that Duncan Leung, Alan Orr, and Ernie Barrios "don't know any better" and "look at it incorrectly"????
Look you keep going with that idea and knock yourself out. Happy drilling.
Simple fact is that after all the back and forth about what how you guys DON'T do isolation training, now you seem to be saying that you do???? :confused:
k gledhill
09-28-2013, 02:51 PM
Simple fact is that after all the back and forth about what how you guys DON'T do isolation training, now you seem to be saying that you do???? :confused:
Elvis has left the building .
sihing
09-28-2013, 03:27 PM
The "isolation" drills, like the pad work, is just another way of drilling the fundamentals, in a freer environment.
Chi sau, develops frame, personal alignment, aim, dynamic sitting, two live sides, basic power development, sensitivity. Laap sau, develops entry lines, side/back&forth movement, adjusting lines to entry attacks (challenging gates), bong/wu hitting, etc...another step closer to free sparring. Pads bring about a further development of timing, hitting a moving target, non contacted reaction to movement, checking positions, some conditioning too, etc..
Not necessarily vs specific techniques, but I do brings forth certain ideas of cutting in on someone's attack, utilizing our forward wedging triangle to dominate that center area while coming in or when retreating.
To really utilize the skill set above, the person may choose to take it all out for a test drive vs other ppl/styles/systems just to get a sense of different timings, distance control and one's ability to read different opponents, whenever some weakness comes up, whatever it is we work it in the VT drills, unless it has something to do with non contacted reaction to something happening, like the opponent is just being too fast in their striking or takedowns..
IMO and experience:)
J
Good post James! Perfect time to show us some of your video footage of the pad drilling that you do....hint, hint. :)
No they are not. Training something in isolation is not what we mean by doing "applications".
I find it interesting that you are unable to even see this distinction let alone understand it... However, I am out too. Sorry Keith.
Myself, Kevin, Graham, guy b, and LFJ (who I thought made valiant and clear attempts to explain) have tried to get you to see this, but its still not getting through.
That's fine. I realize that the PB lineages has a very different definition of "application" from the rest of us. That's why I introduced the term "isolation training" and started trying to talk about that. But even then you all vehemently said "we don't do that!!" Now you seem to be saying you do to some extent. Despite all of my valiant and clear attempts to explain what I meant. Let me point out again how difficult it is to discuss anything productively with you guys.
You see, I suspected that the PB lineage DID do some form of Isolation Training all along. That's why I stopped talking about "applications" and tried to show what I was talking about a bit better. But rather than say..."yeah, if you put it that way we do "X" that is essentially an isolation drill and we use this this way...." No. The response became "its not isolations drills that we are arguing about, but rather what you do in the drilling" as if you all had been agreeing with my idea of Isolation Training all along...which you hadn't! Can't you see how frustrating that is?
But that's neither here nor there. I started this thread for other people to chime in on whether they do Isolation Training or not and if so what kind.
Sihing73
09-29-2013, 05:08 AM
Hello,
I think that everything has to start somewhere.
You need to crawl before you can walk and walk before you can run.
Much like any learned activity or skill, one has to start with learning the basics.
When learning to write one will practice block letters and once that is skilled will begin to put them into sentences and such. Once one has a firm understanding of the way a sentence is structured, or the meaning of the words and phrases, then one can write and go off into tangents.
For me, I like the idea of the 7 sections of Chi Sau I learned in WT years ago.
For me each section represented a different type of energy and how to deal with it.
However the goal was never to "memorize" each section but to absorb what each energy manifested and learn to react per the situation. In the end the goal was to "forget" each section and simply react to what was given. Still one needed to start somewhere.
I have had the privilege of doing various lineages of Wing Chun and I have to say that none of them taught a 1:1 application. Often during demos we would have someone punch at us and respond with several different methods because what the thrower provided was somehow different in each instance.
I recall meeting some from this forum who trained with Sifu Allan Lee who described their approach as "covering". It did not matter what the opponent threw as they simply "covered" that area. I gladly will defer to anyone from that school who can explain it better as I may be off base a bit.
The whole idea goes back to the "Gate theory" which teaches us to cover certain areas of the body with a corresponding hand. Where each hand may respond with various techniques based on what is presented. No set pattern or specific technique is ever taught, ime.
For those who say that responding to the opponents energy is BS; I would postulate that you fail to understand. After all didn't Yip Man himself say that the "opponent tells you how to defeat him"? If not with the energy presented then how?
Now I am not talking about some mystical power but on an understanding of angles and power generation along with body structure. Also if one does not move forward with commitment then some things will not work.
guy b.
09-29-2013, 05:58 AM
The "isolation" drills, like the pad work, is just another way of drilling the fundamentals, in a freer environment.
Chi sau, develops frame, personal alignment, aim, dynamic sitting, two live sides, basic power development, sensitivity. Laap sau, develops entry lines, side/back&forth movement, adjusting lines to entry attacks (challenging gates), bong/wu hitting, etc...another step closer to free sparring. Pads bring about a further development of timing, hitting a moving target, non contacted reaction to movement, checking positions, some conditioning too, etc..
Not necessarily vs specific techniques, but I do brings forth certain ideas of cutting in on someone's attack, utilizing our forward wedging triangle to dominate that center area while coming in or when retreating.
To really utilize the skill set above, the person may choose to take it all out for a test drive vs other ppl/styles/systems just to get a sense of different timings, distance control and one's ability to read different opponents, whenever some weakness comes up, whatever it is we work it in the VT drills, unless it has something to do with non contacted reaction to something happening, like the opponent is just being too fast in their striking or takedowns..
IMO and experience:)
J
Really nice post
Hi Dave!
For me, I like the idea of the 7 sections of Chi Sau I learned in WT years ago.
For me each section represented a different type of energy and how to deal with it.
However the goal was never to "memorize" each section but to absorb what each energy manifested and learn to react per the situation. In the end the goal was to "forget" each section and simply react to what was given. Still one needed to start somewhere.
Yes. That sounds like what I have been describing as a form of Isolation Training. The idea is not to "motorset" a conditioned response. The idea is to isolate a particular thing to work on it and improve some aspect of it. Then you go on.
I have had the privilege of doing various lineages of Wing Chun and I have to say that none of them taught a 1:1 application. Often during demos we would have someone punch at us and respond with several different methods because what the thrower provided was somehow different in each instance.
I agree. When talking about a 1:1 application I have never meant that as learning that when a opponent does X, you always do Taan Sau, etc. You might do any number of responses to X. But each of those responses will be a 1:1 response....meaning a given response to a given attack. Not to sound too abstract.... but I mean a 1:1 correspondence in time and space...not a preset 1:1 always this technique for that attack type conditioning.
I recall meeting some from this forum who trained with Sifu Allan Lee who described their approach as "covering". It did not matter what the opponent threw as they simply "covered" that area. I gladly will defer to anyone from that school who can explain it better as I may be off base a bit.
I'm not from that school, but I have seen what they do. This is taught in both the Duncan Leung and Lo Man Kam lineages. The idea is that if you are thinking a step ahead of the opponent and are in control of the exchange, then you can predict what his next response will likely be and so you "close that gate" or "cover" before he can even launch his attack. So you seem almost psychic in the sense that you are always closing off his line of attack a split second before he even launches it. You see some of this in the footage from DL's lineage that I posted. So in terms of isolation training...this means you can have your partner throw random attacks to different gates and practice your timing and positioning for covering those gates.
The whole idea goes back to the "Gate theory" which teaches us to cover certain areas of the body with a corresponding hand. Where each hand may respond with various techniques based on what is presented. No set pattern or specific technique is ever taught, ime.
I will point out that in the DL and LMK lineages they use Kwan Sau as a generic "cover" a lot. Whether that's good or bad I can't say, but it seems to work for them.
For those who say that responding to the opponents energy is BS; I would postulate that you fail to understand. After all didn't Yip Man himself say that the "opponent tells you how to defeat him"? If not with the energy presented then how?
Be careful! Don't open the whole "responding to pressure on the forearm" can of worms again! ;)
Sihing73
09-29-2013, 08:03 AM
Hi Dave!
I'm not from that school, but I have seen what they do. This is taught in both the Duncan Leung and Lo Man Kam lineages. The idea is that if you are thinking a step ahead of the opponent and are in control of the exchange, then you can predict what his next response will likely be and so you "close that gate" or "cover" before he can even launch his attack. So you seem almost psychic in the sense that you are always closing off his line of attack a split second before he even launches it. You see some of this in the footage from DL's lineage that I posted. So in terms of isolation training...this means you can have your partner throw random attacks to different gates and practice your timing and positioning for covering those gates.
Hi Keith,
Not to disagree with you but to me the goal is to not think during an exchange. I simply try to react and continue going forward. This is hard to explain but the closest would be the state of mushin. It is not not thinking per se but a state of heightened awareness. If that makes any sense.
I do not try to think ahead of my opponent but I try to be aware and react as things are presented to me. I am really probably not explaining this with the justice it deserves. A good reference for me has been Living the Martial Way which is a great book, imho, and explains things far better than I can.
To give an example;
Several years ago I was walking down an alley. Someone jumped out of the shadows and swung a 2x4 at me. I dropped the person without it fully registering what was happening. To be honest I do not remember or know how I dropped the person it just happened. Maybe I got lucky or maybe some of the training carried over to protect me. I like to think the latter but again, I could be wrong. ;)
I have had similar things happen while working as a Police Officer so I will opt to think it was the training. Then again, perhaps I had trained for that "specific" scenario and used a 1:1 technique so maybe it won't count. :p
Not to disagree with you but to me the goal is to not think during an exchange. I simply try to react and continue going forward. This is hard to explain but the closest would be the state of mushin. It is not not thinking per se but a state of heightened awareness. If that makes any sense.
Sure. Perhaps "thinking" was the wrong word to use. But you can set the opponent up such that you have limited his options so his response is more predictable. And you can intuitively know where your opening is and where he is likely to strike so you naturally "cover" that opening. Not so much a rational thinking, as much as the "mushin" type response you noted. But bottomline is that in those lineages that use this approach, they seem to do a fair amount of Isolation Training to help develop it.
Sihing73
09-29-2013, 10:01 AM
Sure. Perhaps "thinking" was the wrong word to use. But you can set the opponent up such that you have limited his options so his response is more predictable. And you can intuitively know where your opening is and where he is likely to strike so you naturally "cover" that opening. Not so much a rational thinking, as much as the "mushin" type response you noted. But bottomline is that in those lineages that use this approach, they seem to do a fair amount of Isolation Training to help develop it.
One of the things I teach is to move in a way where the opponent is within your power zone but you are outside of theirs. This requires them to move in order to be able to hit you but you are able to strike them without moving.
I think that anyone would need fo accept the need to start with basics and build from there. Take any endeavor. Driving a car for example. One uses the basics to learn and practice but with experience one can deal with even unexpected circumstances on the road.
Here is an example of some Isolation Training from Robert Chu:
To help students train the Pak Da, have a partner throwing them straight punches (and they don't have to be WCK punches). Use the Pak hand against the wrist, the bridge (forearm), below the elbow, at the elbow, above the elbow, between the biceps and triceps, at the shoulder, at the chest and at the face. Your footwork will be the simple Bik Ma (Pressing Step) of WCK. This will give you a series of nine different Pak Sao. The angle of your Pak Sao and where your hands start from, will yield different variations. When both partners have done 10 repetitions of each on the desired target and on both sides, move on to the next exercise.
The next exercise is basically the same using Lop Da. With your partner straight punching at you, use your Lop Da hand against the wrist, the bridge, below the elbow, at the elbow, above the elbow, between the biceps and triceps, at the shoulder, at the neck and at the face or ear. You will use Bik Ma footwork. Again, make sure both partners try each variation 10 times on both sides before moving on to the next variation.
To clarify a bit, in CSLWCK the basic idea is to disrupt the opponent's balance so you can control them and strike them at will. The Pak is seen as "pushing the door open"....it should collapse the opponent's structure in upon them and turn them. The Lop is seen as "pulling the door open"...it should yank the opponent forward and turn them. So what Robert is describing above is a developmental exercise for learning to use the Pak and Lop in this way from various contact points on the opponent and using good body structure and "jing". This would be harder to develop in Chi Sao training alone.
Here's some more Isolation Training examples from Robert Chu. These are used to help the beginner develop good structure, learn to control their balance and use their structure to generate power, and how to disrupt the opponent's structure and balance:
1. Medicine ball drill: two students stand in YJKYM facing each other and toss a 15 lb medicine ball back and forth using their structure to send (throw) and receive (catch) force (the ball) for a set of 30 reps each. Variations of stances and steps can also be done. The students have to keep their elbows in and aligned with the hips to use their structure to sink and absorb force as they catch the ball, and then expand and rise as they throw or send the ball.
2. Jut/Tok drill: This is the practice of the linking or intermediary movement from the dummy form. Stand in front of the dummy and apply Jut Sao to both arms, jerking the dummy forward and down as you sink your structure, then apply Tok Sao to both arms shoving the dummy back and up as you rise and expand your structure. Do this for 30 reps every day being sure to use the stance and structure and not just the arms.
3. Ngaat Yiu exercise: This one actually comes from Pan Nam Wing Chun via Eddie Chong. Two students stand in YJKYM facing each other while grasping each other at the elbow. Then they alternately try to off-balance each other by pushing or pulling in any direction. The first partner to step out of his stance is the loser! This is a fun exercise and is used as the preliminary training for Chi Gerk as well as application of throws, sweeps, kicks, and knees.
Again, the intent is to isolate, work on and develop attributes that would be much harder to develop by doing forms and Chi Sao alone.
JPinAZ
09-30-2013, 05:05 PM
Dave/Sihing73 is stop on in his posts on the past 2 pages. Now that is talking wing chun principle fighting vs. technique fighting! Great posts!!
k gledhill
09-30-2013, 07:22 PM
Dave/Sihing73 is stop on in his posts on the past 2 pages. Now that is talking wing chun principle fighting vs. technique fighting! Great posts!!
But did Keith understand ? ; )
sihing
09-30-2013, 09:04 PM
One of the things I teach is to move in a way where the opponent is within your power zone but you are outside of theirs. This requires them to move in order to be able to hit you but you are able to strike them without moving.
I think that anyone would need of accept the need to start with basics and build from there. Take any endeavor. Driving a car for example. One uses the basics to learn and practice but with experience one can deal with even unexpected circumstances on the road.
This is sort of learned in our Laap sau drill, among other things. If you look at dbl arm chi sau, both participants are staying within their respective power zones, with laap drill you can get out of theirs but learn to stay within yours, as it is a freer drill in regards to movement and such, almost like a way for us to spar while staying within the VT frame/mechanic confinement. You see this lots in PB's videos, he's a master of staying out of your power zone but within his and switching it up to miss his..
J
anerlich
09-30-2013, 10:54 PM
http://www.caneprevost.com/2011/03/10/i-method/
http://www.caneprevost.com/2011/03/10/i-method/
Yes. Good example. Thanks Andrew.
But did Keith understand ? ; )
Yes. I thought they were good posts. But did YOU understand? Because he said several things that contradict some of what you guys have been saying. And the bigger question....do you now understand what I meant by "Isolation Training?"
JPinAZ
10-01-2013, 12:41 PM
But did Keith understand ? ; )
heh, honestly I'm not very interested in the personal pi55ing match that is going on between you guys that seems to bloat every thread lately. It's really getting old so I'm staying out of that one :(
Wayfaring
10-01-2013, 01:21 PM
Has me questioning whether or not there is a thing called "Isolation Posting" in a forum, and whether any around here do that kind of thing... :rolleyes:
Here's another example of some Isolation Training. This time from Jin Young of the Hawkins Cheung lineage. He is showing how to work on footwork and angling against a boxer.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y-GECHRm-BU
k gledhill
10-01-2013, 06:02 PM
Here's another example of some Isolation Training. This time from Jin Young of the Hawkins Cheung lineage. He is showing how to work on footwork and angling against a boxer.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y-GECHRm-BU
Jin has had some input from a pb source recently too. ; )
Mutant
10-01-2013, 07:42 PM
Here's another example of some Isolation Training. This time from Jin Young of the Hawkins Cheung lineage. He is showing how to work on footwork and angling against a boxer.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y-GECHRm-BU
We do some drills like this too.
We do isolate and drill things, but we stay away from any prescribed "if --> then" approach.
YouKnowWho
10-01-2013, 08:50 PM
we stay away from any prescribed "if --> then" approach.
There is a general key that can open all locks in both the striking art and the grappling art.
In
- striking art, if you can retreat faster than your opponent's advance, none of your opponent's striking skills can work on you.
- grappling art, if you lie down on the ground, none of your opponent's throwing skills can work on you.
Unfortunately, this general key no longer exist when the "clinching" occur. When your opponent gets you into a
- head lock,
- reverse head lock,
- under hook,
- over hook,
- bear hug,
- arm wrap,
- ...
your solution will all be different.
- If you give me a "head lock" then I'll ...
- If you give me an "under hook" then I'll ...
- If you give me a "bear hug" then I'll ...
- ...
Mutant
10-01-2013, 09:14 PM
There is a general key that can open all locks in both the striking art and the grappling art.
In
- striking art, if you can retreat faster than your opponent's advance, none of your opponent's striking skills can work on you.
- grappling art, if you lie down on the ground, none of your opponent's throwing skills can work on you.
Unfortunately, this general key no longer exist when the "clinching" occur. When your opponent gets you into a
- head lock,
- reverse head lock,
- under hook,
- over hook,
- bear hug,
- arm wrap,
- ...
your solution will all be different.
- If you give me a "head lock" then I'll ...
- If you give me an "under hook" then I'll ...
- If you give me a "bear hug" then I'll ...
- ...
I agree that as range decreases and the closer you get to being tied up in clinch or near submission the amount of options go down proportionally as well to where need certain keys to unlock and resolve. And even at longer range there are certainly 'better' answers to various attacks, but out there at boxing/kickboxing range (which was what I was thinking of when typed the above) the variables become so much greater that that it's more principle based than pure 'if - then'. But sure if you've got a millisecond before someone sinks in a choke or locks you up there's a very short list of what you'd better do asap, and the list gets smaller and smaller. Great point.
Jin has had some input from a pb source recently too. ; )
Does that mean he has given up on Isolation Training and teaching "applications"?
What's the difference between those terms?
When I refer to "applications", I do not mean preset choreographed multiple move responses to specific attacks. I DON"T have in mind some Tae Kwon Do 3 step sparring routine. To me, "applications" refers to the 1:1 correspondence in time and space of one technique to another. For example....using a Bong Sao as a defense against a straight punch. That is not to say that every time the opponent does a straight punch I intend to do a Bong Sao. That only means that one way to use a Bong Sao is as a defense against a straight punch. That is just one application of the Bong Sao. So, likewise, when I talk about applications from the forms, I don't mean take a sequence out of the form and expecting to use it directly. What I do mean, for example, is that there is a pivoting Bong Sao in the form, and the pivot with the Bong Sao can be used as a defense against a punch. So that is an application of that movement. The forms certainly contain concepts, but those concepts must be expressed with physical technique. When you "apply" that technique for a specific situation following the concept behind it, then THAT is an "application" of the technique. So to me, it seems silly to say "we don't do applications." Any specific use of a technique, regardless of how random it is, is an "application." I "apply" my Taan Sao or Bong Sao or Pak Sao in a specific circumstance. Even if I am thinking in terms of a general "zone defense", when I use a specific technique that is an "application" of that technique.....regardless of what attack I have "applied" it to.
As I pointed out in my very first post, I see Isolation Training as breaking out a specific technique, attribute, or yes...application, and working on it in a drill-like format so that you can develop it further. I've given multiple examples of that to try and show what I mean. Hopefully its clear by now what I have been talking about.
YouKnowWho
10-02-2013, 07:30 PM
Do you guys consider a "groin kick followed by a face punch" as "isolation training"?
Ozzy Dave
10-02-2013, 09:24 PM
Anything done as a drill could be said to be “isolation training” but the problem with classification schemes is a semantic one – everyone has to agree on the definitions.
I did like the clip from Jin Young and would say this type of thing needs to be developed further as boxing is the perfect whetstone to initially hone your skill with IMO.
Dave
Do you guys consider a "groin kick followed by a face punch" as "isolation training"?
I would if you isolated that technique, had a partner throw various attacks in which it may be appropriate to use that technique, and worked on the timing and angling that you need to actually make it work. But note, I did not say pick ONE and only ONE attack and try to develop a memorized conditioned response of "groin kick followed by face punch" for that specific attack. What we want to do is break something out or "isolate" it so we can develop it further. Its not about trying to condition a specific response to a specific attack.
Once you have worked that a bit in an "Isolation Training" format or drill, then you have to take it back into Chi Sao or sparring to see if you can use it "on the fly" so to speak. You have to "bring it to life." ;)
This is from dictionary.com:
ap·pli·ca·tion/ˌćplɪˈkeɪʃən/ Show Spelled [ap-li-key-shuhn]
1. the act of putting to a special use or purpose: the application of common sense to a problem.
2. the special use or purpose to which something is put: a technology having numerous applications never thought of by its inventors.
3. the quality of being usable for a particular purpose or in a special way; relevance: This has no application to the case.
4. the act of requesting.
5. a written or spoken request or appeal for employment, admission, help, funds, etc.: to file an application for admission to a university.
6. a form to be filled out by an applicant, as for a job or a driver's license.
7. close attention; persistent effort: Application to one's studies is necessary.
8. an act or instance of spreading on, rubbing in, or bringing into contact: the application of a compress to a wound; a second application of varnish.
9. a salve, ointment, or the like, applied as a soothing or healing agent.
10. Computers.
a. a type of job or problem that lends itself to processing or solution by computer: Inventory control is a common business application.
b. Also called application software, application program. a computer program used for a particular type of job or problem: Your new computer comes preloaded with applications.
I think #2 & 3, and maybe even #8 "applies" here.
YouKnowWho
10-03-2013, 12:58 PM
had a partner throw various attacks ...
You can train a lot of "isolation training" drills by attacking your opponent first.
A
- fast footwork,
- enter from the right angle,
- good set up
- ...
will be nice to be developed from "isolation training".
YouKnowWho
10-03-2013, 07:49 PM
Its not about trying to condition a specific response to a specific attack.
To respond to an attack is easy. There is a general key that can open all locks. A simple foot sweep on your opponent's leading leg (to knock your opponent's leading foot off the ground), or just a simple toe push kick on your opponent's belly (let your opponent to run into your kick) will stop your opponent's attack most of the time.
If your opponent can't put weight on his leading leg, he can't punch you. The leg is always longer than the arm. If your foot can hit on your opponent's belly before his fist can hit on your face, your offense will be your best defense.
Grumblegeezer
10-04-2013, 02:18 PM
To respond to an attack is easy. There is a general key that can open all locks. A simple foot sweep on your opponent's leading leg (to knock your opponent's leading foot off the ground), or just a simple toe push kick on your opponent's belly (let your opponent to run into your kick) will stop your opponent's attack most of the time.
--OK, that makes sense.
If your opponent can't put weight on his leading leg, he can't punch you.
--but this is not so true. The WT guys for example, keep their weight on the rear leg just so they can punch or kick when someone is trying to sweep their front leg.
Perhaps it would be better to say, "If your opponent's balance is jacked-up, he can't punch you with any power."
YouKnowWho
10-04-2013, 02:24 PM
Perhaps it would be better to say, "If your opponent's balance is jacked-up, he can't punch you with any power."
That's correct if you move in and attack your opponent. Your opponent can still punch you with weight on his back foot.
I was talking about your opponent attacks you. He will need to step in to cover the distance first.
mawali
10-04-2013, 09:14 PM
When I refer to "applications", I do not mean preset choreographed multiple move responses to specific attacks. I DON"T have in mind some Tae Kwon Do 3 step sparring routine. To me, "applications" refers to the 1:1 correspondence in time and space of one technique to another.
My view is just the opposite! 2 or 3 step sparring does involve 'isolation training providing one is training the possible scenarios. I started out in TKD and based on the training I thought I understood, 2 or 3 step sparring is" isolation training" and that is the main reason I left! Too much one sided emphasis on kicking.
I was ****ed off that I was often castigated for slapping my opponent or stepping on his toes then pushing him just because I did not kick! If someone attacks high, then I may go low, then hit, or push, then pull then spin and throw.
Pick a scenario then execute as I 2 or 1 and 2 or 12 and 3 or 1 and 2 and 3.
ANother scenario may be feint left, go right, trap his leg with your leg then hit or throw based on your strong points.
I did realize that TKD guys generally are simplistic but a strong kicker does have the force to knock one down or out and many are excellent kickers. Perhaps I sucked at kicking hence my alternative strategies but most of the guys I used to train with cannot even lift their leg!
anerlich
10-04-2013, 09:45 PM
Jin has had some input from a pb source recently too. ; )
As has everyone who reads this forum. Film at 11.
My view is just the opposite! 2 or 3 step sparring does involve 'isolation training providing one is training the possible scenarios. I started out in TKD and based on the training I thought I understood, 2 or 3 step sparring is" isolation training" and that is the main reason I left! Too much one sided emphasis on kicking.
No I think we agree and that you may have misunderstood. You quoted what I said about applications and then started talking about Isolation Training. Trevor asked a good question above, because I do mean two different things when using those terms. I agree that TKD style 2 or 3 step sparring routines are a form of "Isolation Training." But they are something that as Wing Chun practitioners we want to avoid. Any pre-choreographed multi-step routine trained over and over to produce a conditioned response is very likely to fail because any given situation that "kicks in" that response is likely to be different from what you have been training.
As far as "application", those TKD 2 & 3 step sparring routines could also be seen as an application of those particular multiple movements. But again, I would avoid thinking of "application" that way from a Wing Chun perspective and just keep it simple as I noted above.
I think what some amongst us have objected to is the idea that something like those TKD routines IS the accepted meaning of "applications" and "isolation training". I started this thread in order to (hopefully) make clear that that is NOT what I am talking about, and not necessarily the "real" meaning of those terms.
Does this mean me and Keith are starting to agree :eek::D
---We probably agree on more things than not, when you get right down to it. :)
This is a problem.... Real fights don't conform to "scenarios".
---Agreed! :D;)
YouKnowWho
10-05-2013, 11:05 AM
Real fights don't conform to "scenarios".
Not until something like this happens.
http://imageshack.us/a/img841/1861/0i4m.jpg
Your opponent gets your head. You gets his waist. Who is going to win depends on who has trained this "scenarios" more than the other.
sihing
10-05-2013, 12:35 PM
I'd have to say that scenario training won't go to sh!t in a real fight. It won't totally prepare you that is for sure, but it is better than doing forms or just chi sau, and is no different or less effective than sparring, as sparring is not a real encounter as well. So then what to do? How does one prepare for the "real" world??
All one can do is develop a skill set and apply in training as realistically as one can, or go out and put yourself in dangerous situations, start fights, or hang in places where getting mugged is the norm... I prefer training as realistically as I can.
J
mawali
10-05-2013, 12:58 PM
No I think we agree and that you may have misunderstood. You quoted what I said about applications and then started talking about Isolation Training. Trevor asked a good question above, because I do mean two different things when using those terms. I agree that TKD style 2 or 3 step sparring routines are a form of "Isolation Training." But they are something that as Wing Chun practitioners we want to avoid. Any pre-choreographed multi-step routine trained over and over to produce a conditioned response is very likely to fail because any given situation that "kicks in" that response is likely to be different from what you have been training.
As far as "application", those TKD 2 & 3 step sparring routines could also be seen as an application of those particular multiple movements. But again, I would avoid thinking of "application" that way from a Wing Chun perspective and just keep it simple as I noted above.
I think what some amongst us have objected to is the idea that something like those TKD routines IS the accepted meaning of "applications" and "isolation training". I started this thread in order to (hopefully) make clear that that is NOT what I am talking about, and not necessarily the "real" meaning of those terms.
Perhaps it is me but based on my understanding and experience of 2 or 3 step sparring, it was never about application though if one goes through a pre-arranged step process, that should be based on the elements present at the time of contact or response. A scenario is can never be meant to be a copycat of anything since it is just a "static response" but its resolution must be dynamic in purpose
SCENARIO:
I am driving down the road and all of a sudden a VBIED explodes about 200 yards infront of me. What does me or my team do? The scenario (definition) is static but it is dynamically changing.
a. where is contact? close, far. distance.
b. dismount
c. security group, assault group, driver (can he turn around at this point) what is each person's role.
d. Do we run the gauntlet? Too few people, too many, ! Is a principal involved?
Describing the scenario can never be thought of as the scenario itself since it is dynamic aka OODA loop (I am trying to add that we all use elements of it based on knowledge and experience) You can loop up OODA!
How does one size up abc? What do I do or use in that process
TKD responses, perhaps on the part of my instructor was, and appeared to be, a standardized response while I was thinking change or surprise! I don't know what I was thinking back then but it appeared to be not what my teachers though I should. I really don't know but now that I am looking back, this is what I write.
YouKnowWho
10-05-2013, 03:09 PM
Let's use the "foot sweep" as example. You may not like to use it on your opponent, but you can't prevent your opponent from using it on you. When your opponent uses it on you, what will be your "response"?
Do your train your "response" in
- Chi Shou? May be not.
- sparring? If your sparring partner doesn't use "foot sweep" on you, you will never have chance to response to it.
So where will you train it if not in your "partner drills"?
EternalSpring
10-05-2013, 09:10 PM
Let's use the "foot sweep" as example. You may not like to use it on your opponent, but you can't prevent your opponent from using it on you. When your opponent uses it on you, what will be your "response"?
good example. had to deal with this earlier this week with a training partner with a background in wrestling (but primarily a kung fu guy as well). At one point his front leg tried to sweep my front leg from behind, I felt it and responded but our legs locked. It's wasn't hard contact so I tried to pressure him forward but he used his energy to pull his front leg (the one locked with my leg) back while kind of "twisting" me. If he wanted to, it would've gotten me **** well.
Then he gave me a lecture on how my grappling instincts suck, which they really do. But its a good point that we should train all sorts of scenarios, especially the common ones, because sure I could've hit him, but under the rules at the time, I was pretty much responding in the worst way.
Not until something like this happens.
http://imageshack.us/a/img841/1861/0i4m.jpg
Your opponent gets your head. You gets his waist. Who is going to win depends on who has trained this "scenarios" more than the other.
But even this is not a multi-step choreographed response. Sure, you have to know how to respond well to the initial situation, but after you get out of the headlock, what then? You have to continue to respond dynamically. There are still multiple possibilities. You aren't rehearsing a scenario where you say..."ok, you're going to get the headlock, then I'm going to pull out of it and put you in a rear armlock, then you're going to spin around and throw a haymaker, and them I'm going to......"
I'd have to say that scenario training won't go to sh!t in a real fight. It won't totally prepare you that is for sure, but it is better than doing forms or just chi sau, and is no different or less effective than sparring, as sparring is not a real encounter as well. So then what to do? How does one prepare for the "real" world??
All one can do is develop a skill set and apply in training as realistically as one can, or go out and put yourself in dangerous situations, start fights, or hang in places where getting mugged is the norm... I prefer training as realistically as I can.
J
I agree James. But I think what you and John have in mind is really more of a version of "Isolation Training" or maybe limited sparring where you "set up" the situation and then train it more freely. Again, like "Isolation Training" and "application", we can all have a little different understanding of the terms. "Scenario" as Isolation Training might mean simply saying something like...."he has you in a headlock, now go!" and then work on various responses without any set moves being scripted. But when I (and I think Trevor) see "scenario" I tend to think of something where everything is pre-determined. Like those multi-move responses they use in Kenpo. Like two man forms training. But I see the other side of "scenario" now as well. Mawali gave a good example of a scenario our troops have to train for regularly. There can't be a scripted multi-step response. You have to take in various factors in an unpredictable situation and respond as needed. But this is still considered a "scenario" in military training. So I guess its all in how we define our terms and set up what we are doing.
Let's use the "foot sweep" as example. You may not like to use it on your opponent, but you can't prevent your opponent from using it on you. When your opponent uses it on you, what will be your "response"?
Do your train your "response" in
- Chi Shou? May be not.
- sparring? If your sparring partner doesn't use "foot sweep" on you, you will never have chance to response to it.
So where will you train it if not in your "partner drills"?
Good example. I'd break that out and create an "Isolation Training" drill to work on it. But that's not really a scenario in the sense of "here is this complicated situation that you will respond to with this string of movements."
And just an aside.....you could train this in Chi Gerk....which is a form of Isolation Training for leg work. ;)
To be clearer, I think this is the kind of training that most Wing Chun people object to:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HxkMFbiMuFA
Multi-step, complicated, pre-choreographed routines against a specific "scenario". Trevor, would you agree?
kung fu fighter
10-06-2013, 09:37 AM
I Prefer this guy's approach to kenpo, it's very wing chun like
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sMxoeJ8cvLY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Pf_a-QwlNQ
Kellen Bassette
10-06-2013, 10:24 AM
To be clearer, I think this is the kind of training that most Wing Chun people object to:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HxkMFbiMuFA
Multi-step, complicated, pre-choreographed routines against a specific "scenario". Trevor, would you agree?
And that's what you do if someone tries to shake your hand....:rolleyes:
YouKnowWho
10-06-2013, 12:32 PM
And that's what you do if someone tries to shake your hand....:rolleyes:
Try this "Devil's Hand Shake". When I showed this to the street kids in Brazil, they all loved it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L3I4y5dYI0U&feature=youtu.be
For the "head lock" solution,
http://imageshack.us/a/img841/1861/0i4m.jpg
I was thinking about something as simple as "eye brow wiping".
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fIVPc6z2esk
What will you do after you have gotten out of that situation depends on your other training.
Here's another good example of Isolation Training. I picked this up just recently from Keith Mazza. Don't know why I never thought of it myself! :) Maybe some of you have?
This one involves doing each of the Wing Chun forms with only one arm at a time. The other arm stays chambered back at your side. This doesn't apply so much to SNT as it does to the rest of the forms. Since the other forms are all two-handed actions, this allows you to "isolate" one hand and really notice what it is doing in order to refine your technique. Do the whole form with just the left hand, then repeat it with just the right hand. Then when you put both sides together again in the "normal" way, your movements should feel a little more refined and precise.
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