Is Bong Sao a Mistake? [Archive] - Kung Fu Magazine Forums

YouKnowWho

10-01-2013, 03:09 PM

This issue has been addressed many times in the past. To assume that you can always "seal that leak" fast enough may not be realistic.

Bong has risk such as "wrong Bong", you use right Bong to meet with your opponent's right punch. Even if you may move in lighting speed, if your opponent can predict your intention ahead of the time, he can take advantage on it.

Even your "right Bong" may still have risk. If you use your right Bong to block your opponent's left straight punch. His left elbow can still drop under your right Bong (by using his right arm to lift up your right Bong elbow even higher) if you don't seal that gap quickly.

KPM

10-01-2013, 03:10 PM

I don't think that was what T Ray was talking about. But I could be wrong!

kung fu fighter

10-01-2013, 03:49 PM

Leung Jan said

"Bong Has Faults
Faults are not True Faults
Push Snakes Head-the Tail Bites\\ Push the Snakes Tail-The Head Bites
Push the Center-Thrust out with Bong"

Sihing73

10-01-2013, 03:50 PM

Okay, I'll bite ;)

Yip Man is reputed to have called Bong Sau the best or worst movement.
If done correctly it is most effective. If done incorrectly better to do nothing.

to me, a wrong or incorrect Bong Sau would be one in which you tried to use force to block a strike. IMO a proper Bong Sau is formed by your opponents energy and is used as a transitory deflection. To be effective the Bong Sau is momentary and sets the stage for something else, it does not stand alone.

As has already been mentioned on the previous thread, the elbow being raised is an unnatural position and opens the doors to attack. Perhaps this is what was being referred to :confused:

sihing

10-01-2013, 04:37 PM

Bong sau = Recovery to hitting and elbows in setup, the basic usage and meaning.

But in WSLVT they say never to Bong, so I asked myself why do we bong so much in the drills? One reason I thought was that to Bong then Wu sau hit, to complete this action well in the drills, it gives you allot of elbow control and recovery/sensitivity, and since my elbow is the release of the power from the ground into my forearm out my fist/palm, this can help one get to that point of expertise..

As a 3rd or 4th reason to Bong, learning how to horizontal elbow, or shove while in close,,,again, why drop a "possible" usage for only one usage. I don't talk about this one until the student has the first one well within their skill set...

James

YouKnowWho

10-01-2013, 04:44 PM

I have mentioned this before. The Bong has great value in grappling.

When your right hand is behind your opponent's neck (a "neck tie" in clinch), your opponent may use his left hand to punch on your head. Your can use your right Bong to hide your head behind it and deflect his left punch effortless.

Yip Man might drop a seed in the grappling world without knowing himself.

KPM

10-01-2013, 05:04 PM

Well, this is what I posted on the other thread:

Because Bong Sao places you momentarily in a vulnerable position with your elbow up. So you should only spend as much time there as necessary to get the job done. Don't let it remain or the opponent will take advantage of your vulnerability. Also Bong Sao is purely defensive in nature whereas the other techniques also have an offensive quality. Taan and Fook both convert easily into a punch. But all of this still does not mean that the Bong has no position. Only that the position should be very brief!

So in this sense, Bong is a mistake if you used it inappropriately because it is a risk. But I don't think this is what T Ray had in mind either, since he posted his "Bong Sao is a mistake" comment after I had already written this.

So my assumption was that what T Ray was getting at is something taught by PB that most of us aren't aware of. I'm ready to hear about a different perspective! T Ray, where are you?

KPM

10-01-2013, 05:08 PM

As a 3rd or 4th reason to Bong, learning how to horizontal elbow, or shove while in close,,,again, why drop a "possible" usage for only one usage. I don't talk about this one until the student has the first one well within their skill set...

James

Watch it James! I think you are getting dangerously close to talking about an "application." ;)

EternalSpring

10-01-2013, 06:06 PM

Indeed, bong sao is the result of a broken condom

EternalSpring

10-01-2013, 06:12 PM

But being semi serious for a moment...

my sifu always said a few things about bong sao (take it how you want, for all i know, it could have just been advice to me for that specific moment in time), to mention 2 off the top of my head:

-Bong Sao is the weakest of your Ving Tsun techniques, that's why why you see it so much in Chum Kiu after Siu Nim Tao, because we make our weaknesses into strengths.

-Once people are comfortable with Bong sao, they start throwing it out to meet/block anything. Why? Tan and Fook will protect you so much more in a way familiar to your normal structure. Using Tan and Fook shows a better understanding than throwing out Bong Sao

Vajramusti

10-01-2013, 06:47 PM

Hendrik

10-01-2013, 07:10 PM

Bong is a couple of tan , as fook and kei is a couple.

Bong is a counter clock wise drill in to the center line where tan is a clock wise drill in to the center line. So, when one direction stuck one can switch direction with the same side of the bridge.

Bong is a power enhance bridge because it is a elbow range tool which is used to receive better then wrist range bridge. Thus, one can have choice of bridge to use and also an extra tool within a single arm.

Bong is a double helix force flow tool where it has very strong torque power to spin a way any direct force flow. It can uproot because it spin, when direct force flow cannot cause uproot.

Like all tools one can make a mistake. It is just normal.

Know what is bong as it is instead of following what others saying.

Mutant

10-01-2013, 07:51 PM

Leung Jan said

"Bong Has Faults
Faults are not True Faults
Push Snakes Head-the Tail Bites\\ Push the Snakes Tail-The Head Bites
Push the Center-Thrust out with Bong"
Ha! I was just gonna post that quote but I see you beat me to it :D

Sure you can think of bong as a mistake; its rigged to become your opponents mistake!

Some seem to put it just into the 'recovery' category, and sure that can be part of it's utility, but I think its more dynamic than that overall.

YouKnowWho

10-01-2013, 07:59 PM

KPM

10-02-2013, 04:10 AM

Just few months ago, I met a WC instructor. We talked about this exactly subject. I explained my concern on the risk in Bong. He said, "There is no risk". He then asked me to punch him. When I punched my "right" fist at his face, he used "right" Bong on me (wrong Bong).

Sometime even a master level WC instructor may use "wrong Bong" by mistake. How can we expect average students not to use "wrong Bone" by mistake?

There are some that would say that using any kind of Bong Sao as a primary action like that would be a mistake. You should only do a Bong Sao when the opponent makes you do a Bong Sao. Your first reaction to an attack should not be to "throw out a Bong Sao" because as I pointed out before it is a vulnerable position and purely defensive in nature. In contrast, if your first response is something like a Taan Sao or Pak Sao you can easily flow directly into a punch. So if your timing or placement is off or the opponent moves unexpectedly you just instinctively continue your Taan or Pak forward as a strike. You can't do that with Bong Sao.

The one circumstance where you might "throw out a Bong Sao" is if you are suddenly attacked from the side when you have your hands down. So you pivot and do a Bong as your arms rise to meet the surprise attack. This goes along with Sifu Duncan Leung's concept of "covering." That is one of the things taught in the Chum Kiu form. But we won't go there, because that would involve talking about "applications." ;)

FongSung

10-02-2013, 05:07 AM

Are you talking about Bong Sau (as usually expressed) or bong the "seed"
If bong the seed, I would say think about all it's permitations before saying it's a mistake.

Wayfaring

10-02-2013, 06:14 AM

Mutant

10-02-2013, 07:11 AM

From my perspective, I would have to ask "which bong sao is a mistake"?

HFY teaches 3 - Hok Bong Sao (鶴膀手), Ying Bong Sao (鷹膀手), Laan Bong Sao (攔膀手).

Each has a different timeframe, energetics, and structure. And not all have an elevated elbow. I would say that "wrong bong" from my perspective would be to try and use the wrong bong sao in the wrong timeframe.
Pin Sun has several different bongs too, and as one is thrown it can transmorph into another variation depending on the changing situation and openings. Bong should be thrown with the intention to hit the opponent as you strike off of bong. Not with the mentality of a block. As you reactively throw bong you just don't know what strike will come out of it until the situation in that instant plays out. But I'm sure this must be consistent between different lineages. Didn't Yip Man say that your opponent will show you how to hit them?

LFJ

10-02-2013, 08:03 AM

Its not defensive the way we use it....It is part of our attack.

That's because it isn't some "sticking, yielding, and controlling" technique like some folks try to use it.

So presumably you start off using a tan or pak as some kind of blocking motion and you can then change it into a strike? ...and you can do this when someone is trying to fill you in?

Taan - paak - paak (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uNZ2Ijsj6L0) :)

YouKnowWho

10-02-2013, 11:43 AM

Taan - paak - paak (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uNZ2Ijsj6L0) :)

This is a good example that no matter how fast that you can block, you will still get hit soon or later.

Your opponent:

- already knows your blocking pattern by doing few slow test before his real attack.
- knows that you are not hitting back, so he can concentrate 100% on his offense.
- can throw a fake punch, when you try to block it, he will hit your "new opening".
- ...

What's the best solution to deal with those kind of punches? By using the TCMA principle, you will need to "squeeze your opponent's space". In the modern term, you will need to get into clinching ASAP. In order to do so, you have to disable his striking arms one after another.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7nWjcGRF-7g

A

- striker wants to use his arms to hit his opponent.
- grappler wants to disable his opponent's striking arms.

This is why one should get familiar with the grappler's thinking and have proper solution for it.

Mutant

10-02-2013, 02:19 PM

That's because it isn't some "sticking, yielding, and controlling" technique like some folks try to use it.

Taan - paak - paak (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uNZ2Ijsj6L0) :)
While this is an entertaining clip demonstrating what-not-to-do, its misunderstanding the point of that basic drill.

I think the 'application' they were showing as faulty is the pak, tan, gum/gan two man set drill. I've seen that HFY has this and Pin Sun has versions of this too. Or maybe theyre just using that general pattern as and example.

They're missing the point. Its a beginner drill to teach some basic concepts, elbow positions, energy etc. It's not supposed to be turned around and applied like that. If it is that's a death wish. That;s like having someone throw punches with intent at you while you're performing sil lim tao. So of course it could never work like that.

Some of the information in that drill, however, can be used to deal with what the attacker is doing for sure. That's a rigged demo made to 'prove' a point, but it's a misconception.

Agreed with John's comments above which is right in line with correct strategy in this.

KPM

10-02-2013, 04:57 PM

Don't start with the games T Ray. Just tell us straight up why you think that "Bong Sao is a mistake" as you posted in 2 other threads. Simple as that. Present your thinking and ideas without launching an attack on someone else's.

Yes.

Its not defensive the way we use it....It is part of our attack.

This would also be a mistake.... Its ok to throw out a tan or pak?

So presumably you start off using a tan or pak as some kind of blocking motion and you can then change it into a strike? ...and you can do this when someone is trying to fill you in?

....and again :)

Graham H

10-03-2013, 12:56 AM

Don't start with the games T Ray. Just tell us straight up why you think that "Bong Sao is a mistake" as you posted in 2 other threads. Simple as that. Present your thinking and ideas without launching an attack on someone else's.

I like the way you are trying to pick holes in things at every given chance Keith. You even create new threads and put people on the spot like this. It must really gnarling at you that you are failing miserably to understand anything that we from the WSLPBVT are putting forward so continue with your little one man mission to try and justify your own ideas and prove ours wrong.

Anyway....................

Bong Sau is part of an attack. Coupled with the punch it becomes Kwan Sau. Bong can also be used a recovery tool if we have made a mistake and find ourselves in a compromised position. What is important in Bong Sau is the rotation speed of the elbow. Bong is not used for pressing or catching punches in order to divert them. This incorrect idea comes from the wrong practice of poon sau and chi sau.

If Bong Sau is performed correctly it allows you to open the way for you own attack at the same time as the opponent is attacking you. It allows you to attack the opponents attack with your own. How, when, why etc etc etc can only be realized by being shown in person within chi sau and gor sau and not from writing on a Wing Chun forum!

LoneTiger108

10-03-2013, 01:29 AM

-----------------------------------------------------
Bong sao imo is not "thrown out". It's not easy to learn well by some but is one of the 3 basic seeds of winchun.

Are you talking about Bong Sau (as usually expressed) or bong the "seed"
If bong the seed, I would say think about all it's permitations before saying it's a mistake.

:) The only two posts here worth reading as at least they both use the magic word... SEED!

I think far too many people look at the Bong, Tan and Fook hand positions or whatever in a very static, non-fluid way and that will only ever destroy the possibility of developing and cultivating your Wng Chun skill.

Hence the word I am familiar with using to describe these 3 key methods... 3 SEEDS!

None of which are a mistake by the way, but all have strengths and weaknesses!

Paddington

10-03-2013, 01:32 AM

I like the way you are trying to pick holes in things at every given chance Keith. You even create new threads and put people on the spot like this. It must really gnarling at you that you are failing miserably to understand anything that we from the WSLPBVT are putting forward so continue with your little one man mission to try and justify your own ideas and prove ours wrong.

Anyway....................

Bong Sau is part of an attack. Coupled with the punch it becomes Kwan Sau. Bong can also be used a recovery tool if we have made a mistake and find ourselves in a compromised position. What is important in Bong Sau is the rotation speed of the elbow. Bong is not used for pressing or catching punches in order to divert them. This incorrect idea comes from the wrong practice of poon sau and chi sau.

If Bong Sau is performed correctly it allows you to open the way for you own attack at the same time as the opponent is attacking you. It allows you to attack the opponents attack with your own. How, when, why etc etc etc can only be realized by being shown in person within chi sau and gor sau and not from writing on a Wing Chun forum!

I think I am familiar with how you guys use bong sau offensively and believe I have somewhat incorporated that into my chi sau. However, passively do you not find, Graham, that bong is great at dissipating energy and recovering from other positions that are collapsing under pressure?

I am not saying that bong is used to receive or intercept a strike but rather that through some contact with the opponent, a punch for example, the bong sau can be formed to dissipate an opponents force. Do you use your bong sau in this other sense too?

Graham H

10-03-2013, 01:36 AM

Graham H

10-03-2013, 01:38 AM

I think I am familiar with how you guys use bong sau offensively and believe I have somewhat incorporated that into my chi sau. However, passively do you not find, Graham, that bong is great at dissipating energy and recovering from other positions that are collapsing under pressure?

I am not saying that bong is used to receive or intercept a strike but rather that through some contact with the opponent, a punch for example, the bong sau can be formed to dissipate an opponents force. Do you use your bong sau in this other sense too?

I use my bong sau to protect and to open the way for the punch mate! End of story. No need to over analyse energies and positions. The action is too explosive and recovers too quickly to analyse anything once you can perform it.

Paddington

10-03-2013, 01:54 AM

I use my bong sau to protect and to open the way for the punch mate! End of story. No need to over analyse energies and positions. The action is too explosive and recovers too quickly to analyse anything once you can perform it.

Yeah, I was just speaking from my experience. Here when I am placed under a heavy load, my bong sau just naturally comes into being and dissipates the opponents force. I mean force in a real sense and usually from opponents much bigger and heavier than I.

Yes, that is not a ballistic approach to bong but, I don't know, the only way I have found to manage opponents bigger and stronger than me (me 68 kg opponents often 90 kg + ), is via dissipating their mass and force via (di-) bong (and a step or turn). The bong used like this always feels, to me, a response to an emergency; people have commented that they can see me mouth the word s h i t when I pull off bongs like this to dissipate just before I recover and hit them :) .

Just to reiterate, I like the ballistic approach you outline just my body seems to use (di-) bong in different ways and I am not being overly analytical, just reporting on what my body does and if it works for me!

LoneTiger108

10-03-2013, 01:55 AM

Oh dear some more of your weird and wonderful Wing Chun ideas eh?b:)

Oh dear... Yes... these Little Ideas are all my own...*cough* Heediot! *cough*

So explain this.........How can two punches and an action that helps you to create a striking (tan, fook, bong) path have weaknesses? The only weaknesses come from people who can't use them properly and see them as blocks or for controlling arms.

You tell me! You're the one on an ego mission dude. I am only pointing out the two most relevant posts here according to my warped understanding...

Maybe Joy or FongSung can explain as I am too busy today.

Graham H

10-03-2013, 02:14 AM

Oh dear... Yes... these Little Ideas are all my own...*cough* Heediot! *cough*

You tell me! You're the one on an ego mission dude. I am only pointing out the two most relevant posts here according to my warped understanding...

Maybe Joy or FongSung can explain as I am too busy today.

Ego mission? WTF are you on about? How you interpret your Wing Chun is up to you mate! To date Ive seen nothing to suggest you can actually fight with it. All I have seen is demos that look more like chinese opera than kung fu fighting.
I'm interested in the kind of Wing Chun that will help you out in a real life scrap not the sort that teaches you to wave flags at each other!

In my lineage we condition the body for the fight. We hit bags, pads, dummies and eventually each other. When I spar with my peers I feel like I'm in trouble and I have to protect myself. If I'm unlucky enough to get hit and see stars I practice more to improve. No amount of belts, gradings, BS theories and worshipping all things oriental can prepare you for that. Like a boxer in the gym I see it as being no different. So if your 3 seeds of Wing Chun flowery ideas give you the confidence to use it against somebody like me that will be trying to knock you over then all fairness to you.

That's not ego mate! That's living in the real world and not somewhere up there on your Wing Chun cloud!

KPM

10-03-2013, 04:05 AM

I like the way you are trying to pick holes in things at every given chance Keith.

I wasn't trying to "pick holes in things", but I can see how it would appear that way or essentially ended up that way out of frustration. I couldn't get good explanations and when I asked questions for clarification they were either ignored or I was "jumped on" because I "just didn't get it." So I resort to much more direct questioning. Which was again, relatively ignored and just led to more antagonistic responses. So yeah, I discovered that approach didn't work.

You even create new threads and put people on the spot like this.

So since I discovered that approach didn't work, I decided to take some of our major points of contention and just start a thread where I could explain my view and elaborate freely. Maybe I was putting T Ray on the spot. I prefer to say I was inviting him to elaborate on a topic that I found interesting. He made that rather provocative statement on not one but TWO different threads. His entire purpose seemed to be just to get a rise out of people and stir things up, which you guys are pretty good at. But it was an interesting statement and I was willing to give him the benefit of the doubt that he had something valuable to say. So I started a new thread so we could actually discuss it. Now the thread is multiple pages long and T Ray STILL hasn't bothered to explain what he meant. Which again, leads me to believe that we was just trying to stir things up again. Am I wrong?

It must really gnarling at you that you are failing miserably to understand anything that we from the WSLPBVT are putting forward so continue with your little one man mission to try and justify your own ideas and prove ours wrong.

"One man mission?" :rolleyes: Dude, you tick off everyone that tries to engage you in a discussion that has a different idea than your own! Its not just me!!!! Just look at your very recent interactions with LoneTiger and BPWT.

Bong Sau is part of an attack. Coupled with the punch it becomes Kwan Sau. Bong can also be used a recovery tool if we have made a mistake and find ourselves in a compromised position.

I don't disagree with any of that. So then how is Bong Sao a "mistake"?

What is important in Bong Sau is the rotation speed of the elbow. Bong is not used for pressing or catching punches in order to divert them. This incorrect idea comes from the wrong practice of poon sau and chi sau.

Would that not be one possible example of using Bong Sao as "a recovery tool if we have made a mistake and find ourselves in a compromised position"?? Your hands are down and a punch comes at you by surprise. So you lift your arms up in response as you pivot off the line of attack....catching the punch with your Bong Sao as your arms rise and diverting it away from your face. I'm not saying this would be the best response, just that it is a POSSIBLE response with the Bong that is rather instinctive.

How, when, why etc etc etc can only be realized by being shown in person within chi sau and gor sau and not from writing on a Wing Chun forum!

Then why are you here Graham? Why do you engage in discussion when you are totally uninterested and even antagonistic towards someone else's interpretation of their Wing Chun and yet unable to fully explain your own??? :confused:

KPM

10-03-2013, 04:14 AM

Ego mission? WTF are you on about? How you interpret your Wing Chun is up to you mate! To date Ive seen nothing to suggest you can actually fight with it.!

Really? I realize this post may get deleted, but this just takes the cake. Graham, where is YOUR evidence that you can actually fight with your Wing Chun? Or Kevin's, or T Ray's, or PB's for that matter? Isn't your statement something of a double standard?

FongSung

10-03-2013, 04:18 AM

GrahamH - I agree with you nothing is a mistake. That's what I was saying.
We are taught everything is an attack. All three are/can be used to attack.

For the sake of arguement let's say that all WC action are made up from Tan Fuk Bong, which one do you think elbow techinques come from for example. I sure you are not that bothered but just saying LOL.

I think maybe Lonetiger108 meant each has their advantages and disadvanatges.

BPWT

10-03-2013, 04:39 AM

Brief clips of WSL showing BS.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ff-AVgHcagk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f4uACBjqI70

Graham H

10-03-2013, 04:51 AM

Really? I realize this post may get deleted, but this just takes the cake. Graham, where is YOUR evidence that you can actually fight with your Wing Chun? Or Kevin's, or T Ray's, or PB's for that matter? Isn't your statement something of a double standard?

Well unfortunately Keith its something that we can't test but I would certainly pit my "theories" against yours no problem!

Graham H

10-03-2013, 04:54 AM

Brief clips of WSL showing BS.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ff-AVgHcagk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f4uACBjqI70

BS? What are you trying say? The first video shows the effect Bong should have if done correctly and the second shows and idea from chum kiu. They are just examples. As usual Larry you try and use video footage without knowing anything. :rolleyes:

You know nothing of WSLVT so how can you comment on anything? It amazes me how you know so much lol

Graham H

10-03-2013, 04:55 AM

Dude, you tick off everyone that tries to engage you in a discussion that has a different idea than your own!

Good!

That's the only point worth responding to in that shower of sh1t :D

BPWT

10-03-2013, 04:58 AM

BS? What are you trying say? The first video shows the effect Bong should have if done correctly and the second shows and idea from chum kiu. They are just examples. As usual Larry you try and use video footage without knowing anything. :rolleyes:

You know nothing of WSLVT so how can you comment on anything? It amazes me how you know so much lol

BS = Bong Sau. :rolleyes:

Me thinks the Lady doth protest too much. Graham, you're starting to sound a little insecure. :) If you believe in your method, it should be enough. No need to see insults in everything.

The thread's about Bong Sau and I posted two clips from WSL. Not everything is about trying to one-up the next guy, or trying to show how A is right and B has learned via misconceptions.

Chill.

Graham H

10-03-2013, 05:30 AM

BS = Bong Sau. :rolleyes:

Me thinks the Lady doth protest too much. Graham, you're starting to sound a little insecure. :) If you believe in your method, it should be enough. No need to see insults in everything.

The thread's about Bong Sau and I posted two clips from WSL. Not everything is about trying to one-up the next guy, or trying to show how A is right and B has learned via misconceptions.

Chill.

Well as BS commonly means Bullsh1t on here you want make a point of saying which one you mean. Why not just write Bong Sau? Its not like you are busy at work is it? lol

Insecure? No!

Paddington

10-03-2013, 05:41 AM

Brief clips of WSL showing BS.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ff-AVgHcagk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f4uACBjqI70

Such a shame that this extended video has a soundtrack added and the the original soundtrack with the explanations, removed.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SrHuz1uXDBs

Vajramusti

10-03-2013, 07:08 AM

[QUOTE=BPWT;1251198]BS = Bong Sau. :rolleyes:

Me thinks the Lady doth protest too much. Graham, you're starting to sound a little insecure. :) If you believe in your method, it should be enough. No need to see insults in everything.
---------------------------------------------------------
Insecurity can lead to the dogmatism and outbursts of "true believers".
Give it up folks- practically every thread on this forum turns into noise.
IMO- balance is important in good martial arts and good wing chun is thorough in it's approach to balance.... including the balanced hands and the three levers - fok, tan and bong each with their characteristics. Bong is not easy to learn. Bong motions with the right TIMING have many possible applications.

KPM

10-03-2013, 07:13 AM

I thought I'd only posted it once? (or at least thought I reposted it in the same thread)
Yes!
......I didnt elaborate as others (including yourself) had already come up with various reasons why bong might be considered a mistake. :)

Yes that would be a POSSIBLE example.

Thanks T Ray!

KPM

10-03-2013, 07:14 AM

Well unfortunately Keith its something that we can't test but I would certainly pit my "theories" against yours no problem!

That was not the point. Don't go throwing up the whole "you can't prove that you can fight" argument if you aren't going to apply it to yourself.

KPM

10-03-2013, 07:16 AM

Graham H

10-03-2013, 07:29 AM

That was not the point. Don't go throwing up the whole "you can't prove that you can fight" argument if you aren't going to apply it to yourself.

Do you have special needs?

LoneTiger108

10-03-2013, 08:16 AM

Graham, where is YOUR evidence that you can actually fight with your Wing Chun? Or Kevin's, or T Ray's, or PB's for that matter? Isn't your statement something of a double standard?

Well again, you speak my mind so thank you Keith.

For the sake of arguement let's say that all WC action are made up from Tan Fuk Bong, which one do you think elbow techinques come from for example. I sure you are not that bothered but just saying LOL.

I think maybe Lonetiger108 meant each has their advantages and disadvanatges.

I did indeed mean that each of the 3 seeds has it's own strengths and weaknesses or advantages and disadvantages depending on what chat floats your boat.

To reply to your question, and with my magical crazy theories well in tact, I would take a wild guess at ALL THREE!

Mutant

10-03-2013, 09:19 AM

:) The only two posts here worth reading as at least they both use the magic word... SEED!

I think far too many people look at the Bong, Tan and Fook hand positions or whatever in a very static, non-fluid way and that will only ever destroy the possibility of developing and cultivating your Wng Chun skill.

Hence the word I am familiar with using to describe these 3 key methods... 3 SEEDS!

None of which are a mistake by the way, but all have strengths and weaknesses!
Really?!?! You're gonna chime in here to insult everyone on this thread who didn't use the magic word (to you) "seed"?!? WTF that's just ludicrous. This forum has so much bull**** over semantics it's unbelievable. KF Fighter posts a discussion relevant quote by the man himself, LJ regarding bong sao, and you dismiss that because it doent use the word seeds...
:rolleyes:

Just about everyone who's trained WC for a bit has heard the old "seeds" adage, but it's not as relevant to the discussion of whether bong has faults... that's a whole other topic on bong.

Being overly pedantic with out enough hard sparring and fighting, now THAT is a problem around here, not deviations in verbiage which only makes for some interesting discussions.

BPWT

10-03-2013, 09:24 AM

Wow! So sensitive! I understood immediately that by "BS" PBWT meant "Bong Sao."

I see what you did there! :D A typing error for sure, but I just know this will lead to an additional 10 pages about PB's system in comparison to LT's.

To nip that in the bud, before it really begins... Yes, Graham, they have a different approach ;)

Paddington

10-03-2013, 09:25 AM

KPM

10-03-2013, 09:29 AM

I see what you did there! :D A typing error for sure, but I just know this will lead to an additional 10 pages about PB's system in comparison to LT's.

To nip that in the bud, before it really begins... Yes, Graham, they have a different approach ;)

Opps! Sorry! Finger dyslexia. ;)

LoneTiger108

10-03-2013, 11:56 AM

Really?!?! You're gonna chime in here to insult everyone on this thread who didn't use the magic word (to you) "seed"?!? WTF that's just ludicrous. This forum has so much bull**** over semantics it's unbelievable. KF Fighter posts a discussion relevant quote by the man himself, LJ regarding bong sao, and you dismiss that because it doent use the word seeds...
:rolleyes:

Wah! That was all a bit 'mutant' like! What is the problem? Maybe I should have been a bit clearer and used the IMHO or something but take a pill and relax dude because you are only supporting your bullsh1t analogy by over reacting.

But seriously, if you like the LJ saying so much, maybe you can explain what it means?

Just about everyone who's trained WC for a bit has heard the old "seeds" adage, but it's not as relevant to the discussion of whether bong has faults... that's a whole other topic on bong.

I must have been mistaken. As far as I am aware and from all the discussions and people I have met the word 'seed' in relation to our handwork methods is not that common at all. Especially in the PBWSL camp.

I thought is was relevant to the posts I quoted from Joy and FongSung, and I didn't see you jump all over them? But hey... maybe you're stressed out about something else, somewhere else?

Being overly pedantic with out enough hard sparring and fighting, now THAT is a problem around here, not deviations in verbiage which only makes for some interesting discussions.

You sound like you think you know me or something? Interesting. But tell me, what has this comment got to do with a thread about Bong Sau being a mistake exactly?

Mutant

10-03-2013, 12:37 PM

Ahhh sorry i overreacted, your post got under my skin for a minute and got me fired up.. but now i'm on to the next thing and could care less. TOo busy here today to keep up arguing on a forum. Have a nice day gotta run.

BPWT

10-04-2013, 12:15 AM

Another 'Bong Sau' perspective.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HhvYOPcwnGM

YouKnowWho

10-04-2013, 01:02 AM

Another 'Bong Sau' perspective.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HhvYOPcwnGM
I don't understand why he had to use "wrong Bong - right Bong against right punch" in this clip.

At 1.30, if his opponent uses left palm to push on his right elbow joint (or upper arm) to force his body to spin to his left, his left arm will be jammed by his own right arm, and his left punch won't be able to punch out (in order to punch his left fist, his body will need to spin to his right).

His opponent can also use his right hand to grab on his right wrist, and pull his right arm to be across his body. This can also cause his body to spin to his left and make his left punch fail.

If his opponent's right hand can pull on his right wrist, and left hand can push on his right elbow joint, that's the most basic TCMA 搂手(Lou Shou).

To assume that he has speed to:

- move out of his opponent's striking path,
- punch left fist on his opponent's face,

while his opponent is still freezing in his right punch posture with his left palm next to his right arm may not be realistic.

Not saying his opponent has the knowledge, or is always good enough to do so. But his "wrong Bong" does give his opponent that opportunity.

BPWT

10-04-2013, 03:21 AM

Yes, any of those things could happen. But in this clip Emin is simply showing the basics and how you would learn as a beginner - I guess how you would first learn the hows and whys of Bong. Later in the clips he shows how the position is, of course, not held; how the Bong almost immediately changes and Wu Sau starts the striking flow.

In this case, Wrong Bong occurs due to the contact happening via him having his right hand in Man Sau and the punch from the student being from the right hand too.

Also, he is just showing one aspect of Bong's possible use.

But there are certainly 'potential dangers' with the Wrong Bong positioning - though the tables can be turned in your favor too. So snakes and ladders. :)

I think the important thing is that the Bong 'shape' is not held, that it immediately flows into something else.

Grumblegeezer

10-04-2013, 01:33 PM

BPWT--good clip of Emin. You know, I never remember hearing the term wrong bong in the WT system. Sure the outside gate bong puts you into a safer position, but the inside gate cross-arm bong works too ...if your bong flows instantly into an attack, as it should. Check out how Emin does this at 3:19 and again at 4:18.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HhvYOPcwnGM

The "wrong bong" label implies that we choose which bong to make, and presumably choose wrong. In WT, the energy you receive from your opponent dictates the movements you make. If your arm encounters pressure that rolls it over into a bong-sau, then bong happens regardless of which arm you contact. The problem is that bong is defensive and with the inside gate cross-arm bong you are vulnerable to an attack with the other hand, so you can't hesitate even for an instant.

BPWT

10-04-2013, 02:13 PM

Absolutely, Grumblegeezer... in WT we don't choose to use Bong, the incoming attack makes it happen (... in most cases ;)).

I heard the expression Wrong Bong in my previous Wing Chun lineage, so I knew what YKW was meaning. But in my old lineage this inside Bong Sau was still used - it just wasn't formed the way it is in the WT way of things.

I recently trained with an ex-EBMAS guy (he had to stop training with that group due to moving for work)... was fun! Sweaty, but fun. He trained drills full-out with me for about 2 hours. We collapsed afterwards and couldn't move - the next class had to kick us out - and then we went for a few beers, and I ended up needing to call my other half to come and get me with the car. LOL. The 15 minute walk home... I'd never have made it. :D

stonecrusher69

10-06-2013, 11:13 AM

[QUOTE=Sihing73;1250893]Okay, I'll bite ;)

Yip Man is reputed to have called Bong Sau the best or worst movement.
If done correctly it is most effective. If done incorrectly better to do nothing.

to me, a wrong or incorrect Bong Sau would be one in which you tried to use force to block a strike. IMO a proper Bong Sau is formed by your opponents energy and is used as a transitory deflection. To be effective the Bong Sau is momentary and sets the stage for something else, it does not stand alone.

As has already been mentioned on the previous thread, the elbow being raised is an unnatural position and opens the doors to attack. Perhaps this is what was being referred to :confused:[/QUOTE

The mistake (Bong Sao) can also be used as trap or a way of baiting the opponent .
If done correctly that would make you a Masterbaiter..lol

kung fu fighter

10-06-2013, 11:23 AM

The mistake (Bong Sao) can also be used as trap or a way of baiting the opponent .
If done correctly that would make you a Masterbaiter..lol

LMAO! That's some funny SH*T

YouKnowWho

10-06-2013, 01:06 PM

(Bong Sao) can also be used as trap or a way of baiting the opponent .

Actually you can use Bong Shou to bait your opponent's hand that comes in toward your raising elbow. You can then re-direct his arm to be under your other arm. It's a simple "arm drag" in wrestling.

Mutant

10-08-2013, 09:36 PM

Actually you can use Bong Shou to bait your opponent's hand that comes in toward your raising elbow. You can then re-direct his arm to be under your other arm. It's a simple "arm drag" in wrestling.

You can ? ... Amazing. I would love to see that one.
We essentially do this in Pin Sun. That's one option that can play off of bong is to hook the hand behind the elbow or triceps and turn the opponent (while slightly torquing/turning yourself) to take the back &/or deliver a nice shot to the exposed flank. Its part of "turning style" :D

Mutant

10-08-2013, 09:44 PM

The mistake (Bong Sao) can also be used as trap or a way of baiting the opponent .
If done correctly that would make you a Masterbaiter..lol
Ha! So that's the secret of the WC masters, it all makes sense now :p

YouKnowWho

10-08-2013, 11:49 PM

We essentially do this in Pin Sun. That's one option that can play off of bong is to hook the hand behind the elbow or triceps and turn the opponent (while slightly torquing/turning yourself) to take the back &/or deliver a nice shot to the exposed flank. Its part of "turning style" :D

When you do that, you usually have your left hand "above" your right Bong wrist. This way, you can use your

- left hand to parry your opponent's "wrist grabbing arm".
- right Bong hand to "hook behind the elbow or triceps" of his "elbow grabbing arm",

and redirect his "elbow grabbing arm" to wherever that you want it to go.

Happy Tiger

10-09-2013, 01:48 PM

Its not bong sau thats the mistake...its lop sau.

Happy Tiger

10-09-2013, 01:50 PM

Its not bong sau thats the mistake...its lop sau.
In real fighting,I have uesd bong sau...n
ever once lop sau.

Happy Tiger

10-09-2013, 02:00 PM

In real fighting,I have uesd bong sau...n
ever once lop sau.
To further this... it is what you do after bong sau that is likely the mistake.

KPM

10-09-2013, 05:02 PM

Its not bong sau thats the mistake...its lop sau.

Going along with LFJ's idea that you should never actually stick to the opponent, I could see where one might say you will never have time to do the classic Bong/Lop sequence that we see so often in the PB videos. But even the Lop Sao is just a brief contact. So why do you feel that Lop Sao is a mistake?

YouKnowWho

10-09-2013, 07:43 PM

Its not bong sau thats the mistake...its lop sau.
It's not Bong Shou or Lop Shou that's mistake. It's the concept of "Shou" that's mistake.

You should

- think about "how many different ways that you can use your hand to punch on your opponent's face".
- not think about "how many different ways that you can use your arm to block your opponent's punch".

The way that people think about this Shou and that Shou, it's just too "conservative" IMO.

wingchunIan

10-10-2013, 05:40 AM

IMHO looking to do bong lap is the mistake. After the bong the rear hand should be looking to strike. If as it comes forward the opponents arm is still in the way then it is removed using lap whilst the bong arm cycles into a strike. Too many people hunt for the the bong lap combination.

Happy Tiger

10-10-2013, 02:09 PM

Going along with LFJ's idea that you should never actually stick to the opponent, I could see where one might say you will never have time to do the classic Bong/Lop sequence that we see so often in the PB videos. But even the Lop Sao is just a brief contact. So why do you feel that Lop Sao is a mistake?
Its not the contact but the 'grab' where the trouble is. touch yes. grab never...cover even yes but grab no. As soon as I feel grab...I can use VT.
I need not remind any one PB cannot grab at all with one arm. No doubt an ultimatly liberating experience.

Eric_H

10-10-2013, 02:12 PM

Its not the contact but the 'grab' where the trouble is. touch yes. grab never...cover even yes but grab no. As soon as I feel grab...I can use VT.
I need not remind any one PB cannot grab at all with one arm. No doubt an ultimatly liberating experience.

Are you speaking of grabbing with the thumb or grabbing at all?

You can lop w/o using the thumb joint and it doesn't impede WC employment at all. Performing Lop as a thumb-wrapping grab limits you to chin na style application in many cases, so I could see your point from that perspective.

Happy Tiger

10-10-2013, 02:19 PM

Are you speaking of grabbing with the thumb or grabbing at all?

You can lop w/o using the thumb joint and it doesn't impede WC employment at all. Performing Lop as a thumb-wrapping grab limits you to chin na style application in many cases, so I could see your point from that perspective.
Well thats a good point. The proper 'lop' as taught to me is with a 'suicide' grip, thumb on the top...which is the closest you can come to a non commital grip. The more cover, the more risk.

Wayfaring

10-10-2013, 02:29 PM

you don't thumb wrap in grappling for arm locks (kimura, americana) or for toe holds. the only thumb wrap grip I can think of that is used effectively is a wrist grip in the low region (opponent's wrist in the low region rather than mid or high).

guy b.

10-10-2013, 02:54 PM

was fun! Sweaty, but fun. He trained drills full-out with me for about 2 hours. We collapsed afterwards and couldn't move - the next class had to kick us out - and then we went for a few beers, and I ended up needing to call my other half

WTF?

:eek:

BPWT

10-10-2013, 10:51 PM

WTF?

:eek:

Yeah, it sounds like a Kung Fu romance. :D I should probably add that people here refuse to drink beer without chasing it with Palinka, and Hungarians are like the Irish... they can drink you under the table :D

KPM

10-11-2013, 04:34 AM

Well thats a good point. The proper 'lop' as taught to me is with a 'suicide' grip, thumb on the top...which is the closest you can come to a non commital grip. The more cover, the more risk.

On the other hand, the more cover the more control. A Lop Sao can lead into Chin Na-like techniques for moving the opponent to disrupt his balance so you can get some good solid shots in without him being able to put up a very good defense. And even then, its not a "death-grip" where you are going to hold on to get a submission and wait for the cops to come. You only grip long enough to turn and off-balance the opponent, then you let go and beat the xxxx out of him! ;) This is in the Biu Gee form.

YouKnowWho

10-11-2013, 10:57 PM

Bong Shou used in grappling.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m17KTp8PIzA

KPM

10-12-2013, 05:19 AM

Bong Shou used in grappling.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m17KTp8PIzA

That seems more like a Kup Jarn from the Bui Gee form than a Bong Sao.

KPM

10-12-2013, 01:55 PM

Or semantics, depends on ones perspective and classification of technique.

Yeah, maybe semantics. But which "semantic" seems more accurate to you?

http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMzQwNjM4MzUy.html

At 22:22, Beng Meng showing the Kup Jarn...courtesy of LFJ in another recent thread here.

YouKnowWho

10-12-2013, 02:04 PM

Yeah, maybe semantics. But which "semantic" seems more accurate to you?

The Bong Shou is the elbow function "支(Zhi) - elbow raising". You can use it to do many things.

When your opponent

- gives you a wrist lock, an "支(Zhi) - elbow raising" can remove that pressure.
- controls your arm, an "支(Zhi) - elbow raising" can free your arm.
- ...

KPM

10-12-2013, 03:01 PM

Like any other arm position it is just a shape. It's utility is up to each individual and their level of understanding, reaction and purpose. There is no right or wrong just different interpretation of what the shape represents to the individual using it. No need to over analyze or compartmentalize. The goal of Wing Chun should be to simplify not create complexity. Use what you have at your disposal to what ever end is necessary.

Yeah, so. I don't disagree. John showed a technique and called it Bong. I said it looked more like Kup Jarn to me. What's the big deal?

Makes me think that neither you nor John know a lot about the Biu Gee form. But I could be wrong! ;-)

KPM

10-12-2013, 04:18 PM

Last I knew there was no standardized rule book. If I choose to use a bong sau as a strike and a kup jarn as a block I will. Their names are derived by their usage, not by their shape. .

Ok. So what is it you see happening in the clip that John posted?

YouKnowWho

10-13-2013, 12:59 AM

Yeah, so. I don't disagree. John showed a technique and called it Bong. I said it looked more like Kup Jarn to me. What's the big deal?

Makes me think that neither you nor John know a lot about the Biu Gee form. But I could be wrong! ;-)

It depends on whether your intention is on your "elbow raising", or on your "elbow dropping". To me, the Bong has "elbow raising" intention, but doesn't necessarily have "elbow dropping" intention as shown in the following clip.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6R3fCrjKNkc

If you look at Bong from the angle of "body function", you won't have "style boundary" in mind.

KPM

10-13-2013, 05:28 AM

It depends on whether your intention is on your "elbow raising", or on your "elbow dropping". To me, the Bong has "elbow raising" intention, but doesn't necessarily have "elbow dropping" intention as shown in the following clip.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6R3fCrjKNkc

If you at Bong from the angle of "body function", you won't have "style boundary" in mind.

Thanks for the alternate clip John. It is much clearer what is going on in that clip than in the first one. What this clip shows is EXACTLY one of the suggested applications for the Kup Jarn movement in Biu Gee, and matches the movement and intention of Kup Jarn more than it does Bong Sao. Your other clip was not as clear. It seemed to me the action would have just naturally progressed into what we see in this clip. With Kup Jarn the elbow has to rise before it can drop. One could say that in your first video clip the rising part was being used rather than the dropping part.

To me, the Bong Sao is not primarily an elbow rising motion. It is an elbow drilling forward motion. It should drill outward to deflect and turn the opponent, not lift upward. The action is powered from the elbow, but the forearm is the deflecting surface. Lifting with the elbow is more of a Pai Jarn or Kup Jarn motion. That's how they function. No "style boundary" is being used here. Its a matter of biomechanics. To me, if your Bong Sao collapses so that the elbow is leading the action and doing the work, then it has become an elbow technique....regardless of what you want to call it...and is no longer a Bong Sao. Bong Sao is not an elbow technique. One technique flows into another rather easily, and that's how it should be. And it really doesn't matter which technique it is as long as it gets the job done. But we should at least be able to recognize what is happening when we see it.

Paddington

10-13-2013, 05:41 AM

KPM

10-13-2013, 05:46 AM

If I'm trying to break a bolt free and I use an open ended wrench, instead of a socket or an adjustable wrench does it really matter? No, what matters is that the bolt is broken free.
This is just my philosophy, it doesn't have to be yours or anyone else's. Again thank you for your time.

If you watched a video of yourself breaking the bolt free the next day, wouldn't you be able to recognize whether the wrench you used was a open-ended wrench or a socket wrench? If you had to write a report for your boss describing what you did, wouldn't he expect you to be able to distinguish which wrench you used? At the time of the action you do whatever is necessary to get the job done and don't worry about labels or distinctions. But if you are a good enough mechanic, you're going to be able to tell someone exactly what you did. That's just my philosophy, it doesn't have to be yours or anyone else's. ;):)

KPM

10-13-2013, 10:55 AM

Again the "attacker" seems to have no use of his right arm?
It really doesnt take much scrutiny, to see the futility of learning set responses to compliant attackers.

Done properly, the Kup Jarn turns the opponent and breaks his structure. You don't give him the opportunity to use that right arm! If this was a street encounter, the attacker is very likely to "wind up" his right arm in preparation for the strike as he grabs his victims arm. If the victim goes into action quickly and decisively, the attacker never gets the chance to throw that right punch. Look at the video again. How is the attacker going to use his right arm when he is bent over double with his face in the concrete?

YouKnowWho

10-13-2013, 12:44 PM

Thanks for a great clip. What series of instructional videos is that clip taken from? Are they still available?

That clip is from an old VHS tape. The same information is also in the following DVD's.

Combat Shuai-Chiao DVD: Volume 1 ~ 3
By Master David Lin

http://www.combatshuaichiao.com/merchandise.html

YouKnowWho

10-13-2013, 01:29 PM

Your other clip was not as clear.
This clip may be more clear.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fIY-N3LIF_8&feature=youtu.be

After you have raised your elbow and removed your opponent's arm control, you drop your elbow and use your hand to control his arm on top of his elbow joint. It's called "mantis arm".

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GI8nW1KUh4M&feature=youtu.be

The whole thing is to fight for the dominant position. When you have mantis arm on your opponent's arm, you have just put your opponent in "defense" mode. That's your advantage.

KPM

10-13-2013, 03:32 PM

After you have raised your elbow and removed your opponent's arm control, you drop your elbow and use your hand to control his arm on top of his elbow joint. It's called "mantis arm".

Thanks for the clarification John! I still wouldn't call that a Bong Sao. I still think it is more of a Kup Jarn.

Paddington

10-14-2013, 04:01 AM

Again the "attacker" seems to have no use of his right arm?
It really doesnt take much scrutiny, to see the futility of learning set responses to compliant attackers.

I agree that the attacker is being compliant for this demonstration. Would it work in a real situation? I don't know yet. Does cup jarn work when pressing down on the opponent? In my experience yes and at full speed with non-compliant partners but maybe not in the context of the video shown.

I also agree that learning 'complex' set responses is very dangerous and I have spent a lot of time thinking about this. I spent a long time last year not drilling set responses to see what would happen. Instead I trained just forms, punching wall bags and tennis balls on elastic and doing plenty of chi sau. I found that I accelerated past my peers and was viewed with suspicion, as people doubted that such gains were down to my solo efforts.

So, I agree with you T-ray but not in an absolute way. There are some responses that have to be drilled or 'set up' IMO, though the range and type of them is very narrow if you want them to be placed in the nervous and musculature systems, rather than engaging the brain.

[...] with an adrenaline dump and the unpredictable nature of street encounters, being able to perform such specific techniques in a real life situation is unrealistic.

Better to train VT methods and principals that you can actually make practical use of, rather than thinking you can use specific techniques for specific attacks in a real fight.

I do agree with you here and I speak from experience. For me I have to 'trial and error' it as I am Sifu-less and outside of reading forums and researching it, for the main part I have to work it out for myself; it is a painful way to learn!

Paddington

10-14-2013, 04:30 AM

That clip is from an old VHS tape. The same information is also in the following DVD's.

Combat Shuai-Chiao DVD: Volume 1 ~ 3
By Master David Lin

http://www.combatshuaichiao.com/merchandise.html

Thanks for the information!

YouKnowWho

10-14-2013, 06:51 AM

I agree that the attacker is being compliant for this demonstration. Would it work in a real situation? I don't know yet. Does cup jarn work when pressing down on the opponent? In my experience yes and at full speed with non-compliant partners but maybe not in the context of the video shown.

In order to make this move work,

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6R3fCrjKNkc

you have to coordinate your

1. right front foot landing,
2. right elbow dropping, followed by
3. right elbow moving to your right horizontally (this part is very important), and
4. body sinking down,

all at the same time.

It takes partner training to be able to coordinate 1, 2, 3, and 4 as 1 move. Without partner training and with only "solo form training",

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wEvoVP8v9hc&feature=youtu.be

you assume that your move will work in street situation is extreme difficult if not impossible.