Health Benefits of Santi Shi

[Sihing73]

Hello,

I know that Hsing Yi practice of the Five fists is supposed to have health benefits.
Each fist is reputed to stimulate a specific organ.

My question is regarding the Santi Shi posture or Trinity Pole Standing.
Santi is the posture which originates the fists, perhaps I am not explaining it properly but essentially it is the standing posture taken in the beginning and the fists move from that posture.

Anyhow, I am wondering if there are any reported health benefits from performing just the Santi or even just doing Standing Postures such as Zhan Zhuang.

I am genuinely curious as I have started practicing the Santi this past week and it seems that I have seen a decrease in my blood sugar levels. I am wondering if this is related or simply a coincidence. Although, I have not made any changes to my diet or exercise and actually have taken less of my medication.

Any input would be appreciated.

[mawali]

Health status is more than one variable so any activity in conjunction with zhanzhuang and santishi is positive. Zhanzhuang training has great benefit with digestive problems in conjunction with 'normalizing the diet' (i.e. eating healthy food as opposed to what is considered SAD.

[YouKnowWho]

Common sense tell us that

- running is better than walking,
- walking is better than standing,
- standing is better than sitting,
- sitting is better than laying down,
- laying down is better than to be dead.

If you move a

- tree, that tree will die.
- person, that person will live longer.

If you walk 8 miles daily, in your

- 1st 4 miles, all your body problem will be detected.
- 2nd 4 miles, your body start to fix your problem.

"Moving" is the key for longevity and not "standing" (which is still better than "sitting"). You can train a lot of combat skill when you move.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jGxptvJlubY

[Robinhood]

Hello,

I know that Hsing Yi practice of the Five fists is supposed to have health benefits.
Each fist is reputed to stimulate a specific organ.

My question is regarding the Santi Shi posture or Trinity Pole Standing.
Santi is the posture which originates the fists, perhaps I am not explaining it properly but essentially it is the standing posture taken in the beginning and the fists move from that posture.

Anyhow, I am wondering if there are any reported health benefits from performing just the Santi or even just doing Standing Postures such as Zhan Zhuang.

I am genuinely curious as I have started practicing the Santi this past week and it seems that I have seen a decrease in my blood sugar levels. I am wondering if this is related or simply a coincidence. Although, I have not made any changes to my diet or exercise and actually have taken less of my medication.

Any input would be appreciated.

Standing has many , many benefits that are not the same or avialiable from moving exercises, but like anything else, done wrong and benefits will vary. This probably is not the best place to ask about standing benefits, try some internal forums for better responses.

[MarathonTmatt]

I think I agree w/ YKW- that is a refreshing (and common sense) perspective to hear. I know one of my teachers, a Chinese doctor (who is older), walks for a few miles every morning. "Movement is the key to longevity."

But I would also note that a lot of people don't know how to even properly use their bodies in the first place (the public at large). a lot of people have bad posture when it comes to performing even basic tasks. Standing posture may be the first steps one can take to correct this. As a martial artist this is very important. You will be more kinetically comfortable in your own body and how to use it, and may even enhance your ability to issue martial power, depending on your experience (if you have never done martial art before for instance.)

Also in San Ti Shi your weight is on the back leg, you are working a stance w/ your knees unlocked, hands on guard Xing-Yi style. holding that for minutes on end is good conditioning for sure.

[YouKnowWho]

When you train "right leg forward, right hand forward" Santi Shi,

http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=xingYi+pi+quan&FORM=HDRSC2#view=detail&id=AA838E4B97412292EF3B3AEB55A038174A4721B0&selectedIndex=7

you should also train "right leg forward, left hand forward" (cross stance) Santi Shi.

http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=xingYi+pi+quan&FORM=HDRSC2#view=detail&id=F9E2E6F47C124E8B3D3AF8E6B6704BEFE69843A4&selectedIndex=11

[MarathonTmatt]

When you train "right leg forward, right hand forward" Santi Shi,

http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=xingYi+pi+quan&FORM=HDRSC2#view=detail&id=AA838E4B97412292EF3B3AEB55A038174A4721B0&selectedIndex=7

you should also train "right leg forward, left hand forward" (cross stance) Santi Shi.

http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=xingYi+pi+quan&FORM=HDRSC2#view=detail&id=F9E2E6F47C124E8B3D3AF8E6B6704BEFE69843A4&selectedIndex=11

Thank you Shifu!

The second example looks more compacted (equals more power building)!

[Miqi]

Zhan zhuang has many health benefits, but not if you just stand still. There's nothing magical about zhan zhuang - it's just intended to promote a certain feeling of resistance which is difficult to explain because it comes in harmony with increased relaxation.

Once you have the correct feeling you can play with the movement - either with movements so small that people will not be able to see you move, or with bigger movements, even walking.

"Common sense" in this case is quite wrong - zhan zhuang is an excellent, if over-emphasised exercise. By the latter I mean it should only really be a small part of your training, but some people like to pretend that it's the be all and end all, as if it will grant magic powers. If you don't do bag/pad work and sparring then there's nothing for zhan zhuang to improve in that sense.

I read an old Xing Yi master saying never hold the same posture for more than ten minutes, which is heresy to most yiquan people, but I agree.

[Matthew]

Zhan zhuang has many health benefits, but not if you just stand still. There's nothing magical about zhan zhuang - it's just intended to promote a certain feeling of resistance which is difficult to explain because it comes in harmony with increased relaxation.

Some say it increases power/strength and is, in itself, an exercise. In fact, YiQuan founder himself may have beginning students stand stationary for extended periods of time.

Not only that - but Wang Xiang Zhai, YiQuan Founder, student said they had athletes practice standing stake (nonmoving) and the athletes had significant notably improvement in ability that doctors of their time attested to.



I read an old Xing Yi master saying never hold the same posture for more than ten minutes, which is heresy to most yiquan people, but I agree.

Interesting. A student of YiQuan's founder not only teaches standing still for extended periods of time, he talks about how they would use standing stake to improve athletic performance and strength.

The root practices we know of, from the remaining XinYi schools include standing stake as a regular practice, if not the single foundational building block upon which external movements are based.

[Matthew]

Hello,

I know that Hsing Yi practice of the Five fists is supposed to have health benefits.
Each fist is reputed to stimulate a specific organ.

My question is regarding the Santi Shi posture or Trinity Pole Standing.
Santi is the posture which originates the fists, perhaps I am not explaining it properly but essentially it is the standing posture taken in the beginning and the fists move from that posture.

Anyhow, I am wondering if there are any reported health benefits from performing just the Santi or even just doing Standing Postures such as Zhan Zhuang.

I am genuinely curious as I have started practicing the Santi this past week and it seems that I have seen a decrease in my blood sugar levels. I am wondering if this is related or simply a coincidence. Although, I have not made any changes to my diet or exercise and actually have taken less of my medication.

Any input would be appreciated.

I'm not sure about Santi, but did know that basic standing stake is regarded as a pillar in most nei-gong practices I'm aware of.

YiQuan founder (who basically learned lots of various NeiGong practices in his time and reportedly did a good amount of sparring/fighting) Wang Xiang Zhai has a student that claims they saw significant notably performance improvement in athletes who practiced it http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hx0UdZgP46k

The basic idea being (all IME/IMU) if you can stand, (with slow, comfortable nasal breathing for the most part) for an extended period of time, you cannot lie to yourself about whether or not your body is holding tension.

If your practice consists of instead going to hit the punching bags for an hour, or blow through only "Fa Li" external forceful forms and practices for a while - you can hold tension all the while.

So, to learn to melt the tension entirely is like learning to ensure the breaks aren't on when driving. Or to fine tune the vehicle. You're making efficiency in bodily practice at the basic physical level.

When it comes into self-cultivation practice, you are working at the mind-level to improve efficiency in mental processes.

[Miqi]

Some say it increases power/strength and is, in itself, an exercise. In fact, YiQuan founder himself may have beginning students stand stationary for extended periods of time.

Not only that - but Wang Xiang Zhai, YiQuan Founder, student said they had athletes practice standing stake (nonmoving) and the athletes had significant notably improvement in ability that doctors of their time attested to.




I'm afraid that's just a misunderstanding of what I said. Standing still is never really just standing still - although it might look like that from the outside. Zhan zhuang involves a great deal of internal activity, by which I mean actual, physiological activity, such as playing with the resistance of forces, and activity of the mind.

Just standing still probably does have some effects on relaxation and mental health - but in terms of its martial and proper health benefits, a great deal more is involved than people generally think.



Interesting. A student of YiQuan's founder not only teaches standing still for extended periods of time, he talks about how they would use standing stake to improve athletic performance and strength.

The root practices we know of, from the remaining XinYi schools include standing stake as a regular practice, if not the single foundational building block upon which external movements are based.

The issue - for me - is not the value of zhan zhuang, but its ridiculous over valuation. I'm not interested in pointless appeals to authority - show me the results of whatever it is you promote.

[Miqi]

I'm not sure about Santi, but did know that basic standing stake is regarded as a pillar in most nei-gong practices I'm aware of.

YiQuan founder (who basically learned lots of various NeiGong practices in his time and reportedly did a good amount of sparring/fighting) Wang Xiang Zhai has a student that claims they saw significant notably performance improvement in athletes who practiced it http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hx0UdZgP46k



Yu Yong Nang, according to Wang Zhang Zhai's daughter, claims all kinds of things, like being able to affect people without touching them via qi projection. Actually, Wang even rejected the notion of qi towards the end of his life, as part of his drive to create a truly scientific martial art. If you want believe Yu, go ahead - it's the opposite of what Wang was trying to achieve.




The basic idea being (all IME/IMU) if you can stand, (with slow, comfortable nasal breathing for the most part) for an extended period of time, you cannot lie to yourself about whether or not your body is holding tension.


It's nothing to do with this at all. It's solely to do with physical and mental processes that have a practical training effect. These can be practiced without torturing oneself. All the bravado of holding through pain is just a side-show.



If your practice consists of instead going to hit the punching bags for an hour, or blow through only "Fa Li" external forceful forms and practices for a while - you can hold tension all the while.

So, to learn to melt the tension entirely is like learning to ensure the breaks aren't on when driving. Or to fine tune the vehicle. You're making efficiency in bodily practice at the basic physical level.

When it comes into self-cultivation practice, you are working at the mind-level to improve efficiency in mental processes.

There's a study to be done on all these theoretical analogies and tropes. If you don't actually show what you've achieved, then it's quite easy to dismiss people who "merely punch bags for an hour". Maybe you should demonstrate your results before speaking. Until then, I say that a combination of both is the correct way, and that it is absoloutely nothing about - with the greatest of ironies - telling lies to oneself. If only we could eliminate that from CMA!

[Sihing73]

Hello,

Thank you for the replies, some food for thought.

I am not advocating simply standing still alone. There are of course internal aspects, for example in Hsing Yi one learns to concentrate the energy in six different directions as well while standing in Santi.

Of course one should also do other exercises and practice as well. Standing is one piece of the pie not the whole.

My curiosity stems from noticing that since beginning Santi, with no other changes, my blood sugar levels seem to run lower than before. This leads me to wonder if there are some benefits to the practice or perhaps a combination of several things.

My understanding is that in Eastern arts or health methods, the focus is primarily on establishing balance to the body. Once balance is obtained then the body can work to heal itself. So my thinking was that perhaps standing in Santi was a way of re-establishing balance.

[Miqi]

Hello,

Thank you for the replies, some food for thought.

I am not advocating simply standing still alone. There are of course internal aspects, for example in Hsing Yi one learns to concentrate the energy in six different directions as well while standing in Santi.

Of course one should also do other exercises and practice as well. Standing is one piece of the pie not the whole.

My curiosity stems from noticing that since beginning Santi, with no other changes, my blood sugar levels seem to run lower than before. This leads me to wonder if there are some benefits to the practice or perhaps a combination of several things.

My understanding is that in Eastern arts or health methods, the focus is primarily on establishing balance to the body. Once balance is obtained then the body can work to heal itself. So my thinking was that perhaps standing in Santi was a way of re-establishing balance.

The mind and the body are amazing things. Sometimes it's just the fact that you recognise that something is out of balance, and begin to do something - it could be walking, waving your arms around or yoga - even just getting out and being more sociable - and some things start improving.

[Matthew]

I'm afraid that's just a misunderstanding of what I said. Standing still is never really just standing still - although it might look like that from the outside.


I think you mean Zhan Zhuang/Xu Zhuang/San Ti is not just 'standing still' - but in either case I didn't disagree with you.


The issue - for me - is not the value of zhan zhuang, but its ridiculous over valuation.

Really?

I have yet to see any American medical institutions OR well-known American martial arts circles promoting it (let alone researching it or over-valuing it).

I would define over-valuation on it as being excessively researched, promoted in society, practiced, and viewed as an beneficial health-practice (none of which I see anywhere in America).

Would you provide some evidence to your claim that there is "ridiculous over valuation" occurring?

Obviously in the context of nei-gong arts practice, it fills a small portion of practice/knowledge, albeit a generally recognized fundamental pillar...

As a fundamental pillar - research would be nice on it, but I doubt that would happen until there is even baseline-level valuation on the practice (let alone over-valuation).


Until [there is proof of its efficacy], I say that a combination of both [external Fa Li forceful practice and zhan zhuang] is the correct way

Depends on what your goals are really, but I didn't decline either.. merely noted that if someone isn't practicing Nei Gong (such as basic Zhan Zhuang), then one could go about hitting punching bags in a very tense way, without exploring the "tuning of the engine" and the refining of physical and mental processes.

IME, internal component of an art seeks to understand where Li (force) is generated, and work to improve the underlying pillars... if you are exploring the Chinese traditional medicine approach, this would be from Xin (habitual action and subconscious mind) and Yi (intent resulting from subconscious mind), and finally Qi (or different types of Qi in different ways depending on what Chinese text you are referring to) - which supports and underlies Li.

There are many on this board who are trying to interpret ancient-chinese terminology/ discover what potential underlying materialistic system(s) may explain them.. that's nice too, as it leads to more research and discovery along the way.

IMO, this talk is all great, but if one doesn't practice - then we can use any terminology we want and it wouldn't make a personal difference.

You always mention wanting to see results - but you are vague on what results you want to see. I offer some unsolicited advice - to apply scientific method you first need a hypothesis before you can determine the parameters and know whether a method brings the results you want to see.

Once we have the hypothesis, if our practice doesn't bring that result, then either 1) We are doing something wrong (methodology issue) and need clarification or 2) We understand the method, but it brings results we don't want and need new method


Yu Yong Nang [of Matthew's linked video] ... claims all kinds of things, like being able to affect people without touching them via qi projection.

There are few practitioners I'm aware of claiming to be able to do this anywhere in the world, and only one of which I know of willing to put this into research.

When I get time - I'll link you to a quite recent preliminary "Qi projection" study related to the Xin Yi Master She De Jian "affecting peoples Qi by projecting into their Yin Tang [point above the nose]" and measuring the receipients EEG Coherence Indexes. Good luck meeting someone who would claim this ability - let alone finding the funding, time, and research-team-with-relevant-skills to even test such claims. The preliminary study shows some interesting results, although I'm not in neuropsychology and can't claim ability to critically interpret the article.

[Miqi]

I think you mean Zhan Zhuang/Xu Zhuang/San Ti is not just 'standing still' - but in either case I didn't disagree with you.


I meant precisely what I said - that when I talked of standing still, in zz, it is not simply standing still.




Really?

I have yet to see any American medical institutions OR well-known American martial arts circles promoting it (let alone researching it or over-valuing it).


Wow - that almost makes it sound like I said something silly. I meant its ridiculus over-valuation amongst the people and communities who use and recommend this training method, quite obviously not it's over-valuation amongst people who've never heard of it.



I would define over-valuation on it as being excessively researched, promoted in society, practiced, and viewed as an beneficial health-practice (none of which I see anywhere in America).


Well I don't. Who cares what "America" thinks?




Would you provide some evidence to your claim that there is "ridiculous over valuation" occurring?


No, I don't need to provide any such evidence - "performing extended periods of zz is correct" is the basic position of almost everyone who recommends zz, as anyone involved in this debate should already know, before commenting. However, the briefest research will establish that what I have said is true.




Obviously in the context of nei-gong arts practice, it fills a small portion of practice/knowledge, albeit a generally recognized fundamental pillar...

As a fundamental pillar - research would be nice on it, but I doubt that would happen until there is even baseline-level valuation on the practice (let alone over-valuation).


If this means anything, I don't get it, so I don't care. You show me what you've gained from it - what you, personally, can claim to know about this practice. Otherwise, you should listen to me, and learn from me.




Depends on what your goals are really, but I didn't decline either.. merely noted that if someone isn't practicing Nei Gong (such as basic Zhan Zhuang), then one could go about hitting punching bags in a very tense way, without exploring the "tuning of the engine" and the refining of physical and mental processes.


Boy am I sick of people using these tropes. You should drop out of the debate if you don't really follow the proper practice of serious training combined with zz. It's hard enough as it is to get proper information across, without people wanting their two penneth to be valued at a dollar.



IME, internal component of an art seeks to understand where Li (force) is generated, and work to improve the underlying pillars... if you are exploring the Chinese traditional medicine approach, this would be from Xin (habitual action and subconscious mind) and Yi (intent resulting from subconscious mind), and finally Qi (or different types of Qi in different ways depending on what Chinese text you are referring to) - which supports and underlies Li.


I don't need to hide what i do behind this kind of facade.




There are many on this board who are trying to interpret ancient-chinese terminology/ discover what potential underlying materialistic system(s) may explain them.. that's nice too, as it leads to more research and discovery along the way.


Yiquan is a scientific martial art based on historical and dialectical materialism. It is trans-historical and trans-national. It requires no understanding whatsoever of Chinese culture.



IMO, this talk is all great, but if one doesn't practice - then we can use any terminology we want and it wouldn't make a personal difference.


Well, that's not true either. False and misleading terminology doesn't help. And terminology which leads people away from real understanding of quan doesn't help. And in addition, it is hard enough to explain true concepts without people attempting to score petty points by deliberately misinterpreting things. You may listen to me, and learn the actual facts, or you may continue to hinder me in attempting to explain them. The really irritating thing is, it's not like what I'm trying to get across is particularly special - it's just a matter of seeing the implication and truth of it.





You always mention wanting to see results - but you are vague on what results you want to see. I offer some unsolicited advice - to apply scientific method you first need a hypothesis before you can determine the parameters and know whether a method brings the results you want to see.

Once we have the hypothesis, if our practice doesn't bring that result, then either 1) We are doing something wrong (methodology issue) and need clarification or 2) We understand the method, but it brings results we don't want and need new method


You are hiding behind all of this. I just want you to show me what your method, your knowledge, your "experience" which you have mentioned several times, has led you to. I already know your level - the point isn't to make you show it.




There are few practitioners I'm aware of claiming to be able to do this anywhere in the world, and only one of which I know of willing to put this into research.


The truth is, those people are in hiding, because they live in fear that any of their claims might ever be tested by a serious dis-believer. Like all the Sam Tam's and all of the many others, they live pitiful lives protecting the illusion that they've built.



When I get time - I'll link you to a quite recent preliminary "Qi projection" study related to the Xin Yi Master She De Jian "affecting peoples Qi by projecting into their Yin Tang [point above the nose]" and measuring the receipients EEG Coherence Indexes. Good luck meeting someone who would claim this ability - let alone finding the funding, time, and research-team-with-relevant-skills to even test such claims. The preliminary study shows some interesting results, although I'm not in neuropsychology and can't claim ability to critically interpret the article.



I don't know everything that there is. I don't claim to. But really this is just more smoke screen that people who genuinely want to reclaim quan just need to waft away. Behind it is still just you, and still just me.

[Matthew]

Wow - that almost makes it sound like I said something silly. I meant its ridiculus over-valuation amongst the people and communities who use and recommend this training method, quite obviously not it's over-valuation amongst people who've never heard of it.


Well I don't. Who cares what "America" thinks?

You made a blanket generalization [about over-valuation of ZZ]. Then you back peddle and say that you only were referring to specific parties that you did not mention and won't provide evidence of.

That's called trolling.

Some people are trying to apply their methods to healing in a time where so many readily-preventable/fixable medical issues are so rampant.



If this means anything, I don't get it, so I don't care. You show me what you've gained from it - what you, personally, can claim to know about this practice. Otherwise, you should listen to me, and learn from me.

I'm learning a lot, although I don't know that you are intentionally teaching what it is that I'm learning from you.



Boy am I sick of people using these tropes [ such as Chinese traditional context/definitions of Xin, Yi, Qi, or Li] .
I don't need to hide what i do behind this kind of facade.

The art you keep claiming is called "YiQuan" which uses the very chinese term I just discussed.
If my response is so stupid, and those terms are so useless, then why would you even put a name to the "art" you claim to do?



You are hiding behind all of this. I am somewhat stupid, so if what I post doesn't make sense - ignore it and please don't let it afflict you.


I just want you to show me what your method, your knowledge, your "experience" which you have mentioned several times, has led you to.
See what? You don't even have a goal yet - how can you know what you want people to show you?


I already know your level - the point isn't to make you show it.

It would behoove you to make others aware of your point publicly.

[Miqi]

You made a blanket generalization [about over-valuation of ZZ]. Then you back peddle and say that you only were referring to specific parties that you did not mention and won't provide evidence of.

That's called trolling.


Then be clear now - I mean the valuation placed on zz amongst the communities that use and recommend this practice.



Some people are trying to apply their methods to healing in a time where so many readily-preventable/fixable medical issues are so rampant.


I'm afraid you can't help people with what you don't really understand.



I'm learning a lot, although I don't know that you are intentionally teaching what it is that I'm learning from you.

Well that is very much the point, isn't it.



The art you keep claiming is called "YiQuan" which uses the very chinese term I just discussed.
If my response is so stupid, and those terms are so useless, then why would you even put a name to the "art" you claim to do?

Just because you don't really understand what you're talking about doesn't mean that these ideas and terms are stupid.




I am somewhat stupid, so if what I post doesn't make sense - ignore it and please don't let it afflict you.

Well if that was my intention, I wouldn't be writing here.



See what? You don't even have a goal yet - how can you know what you want people to show you?

Don't be silly, I don't expect you to show me anything.



It would behoove you to make others aware of your point publicly.

The point is to make clear that you won't show anything or demonstrate what any of this means in actual practice to us, despite pages of convoluted theory. That is one stage along the path of getting rid of people like that from hanging on to quan, where they have no business hanging.

[Matthew]

That is one stage along the path of getting rid of people like that from hanging on to quan, where they have no business hanging.

Oh - now I see why you keep posting misrepresenting others arguments, and distracting double-talk about "truth" and "what is your level"
------------
You are talking about "quan" in a Traditional Chinese Medicine section of this forum.

You then complain about Traditional Chinese concepts, and claim that your chinese concepts (yiquan) is actually science (but you don't have evidence).
---------------
You are talking about "quan" in a health benefits thread.

You then complain and troll about "over valuation" of ZZ and people taking over "quan" in a thread of about Health.

----------

[Matthew]

Hello,

Thank you for the replies, some food for thought.

I am not advocating simply standing still alone. There are of course internal aspects, for example in Hsing Yi one learns to concentrate the energy in six different directions as well while standing in Santi.

Thanks, I noticed there are many slight variations on these basic ZZ, isn't it?

Either way, it seems they are postural improvements. I noticed many secondary/tertiary level physical responses after practicing consistently (better sleep, improved bowel movement consistency, reduced effort in some manual labor tasks, improved concentration)... but for your question about research it would be very hard to isolate these improvements against other life variables (job stressors, life changes, weather conditions, diet/sleep consistency, and other variables).

With those difficulty in variables for research, and the funding issue (funding alternative, free treatment, etc.) - isn't it just too hard to have some actual hard-cold facts on this?

If we experiment this ourselves and note improvement - isn't that already a great thing and worth sharing?




My curiosity stems from noticing that since beginning Santi, with no other changes, my blood sugar levels seem to run lower than before. This leads me to wonder if there are some benefits to the practice or perhaps a combination of several things.

My understanding is that in Eastern arts or health methods, the focus is primarily on establishing balance to the body. Once balance is obtained then the body can work to heal itself. So my thinking was that perhaps standing in Santi was a way of re-establishing balance.

The video I linked makes many similar such claims, and apparently the guy (YongNian) wrote a book based on his research. Not sure what parameters he set, how or if he controlled for variables, sample sizes, etc. but they discuss it here:
http://www.emptyflower.net/forums//index.php?showtopic=5140


Other teachers teaching these ZZ usually make similar claims.

I don't see anyone sticking to Miqi's unfounded claims that it is "over-valued" and the only thing people should do, well we have to take everyones claims with a grain of salt and try it out if we want to see what happens.

[YouKnowWho]

Do anybody truly believe that to stand still like this,

http://imageshack.us/a/img404/8081/changfightingposture.jpg

will give you better benefit than to move around like this?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0jI_AOWtIrA&feature=youtu.be

Please notice that when you are moving, your

- right hand has to coordinate with your left foot, and
- left hand has to coordinate with your right foot.

The outer 3 harmonies just cannot be trained in static ZZ.

[Robinhood]

Do anybody truly believe that to stand still like this,

http://imageshack.us/a/img404/8081/changfightingposture.jpg

will give you better benefit than to move around like this?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0jI_AOWtIrA&feature=youtu.be

Please notice that when you are moving, your

- right hand has to coordinate with your left foot, and
- left hand has to coordinate with your right foot.

The outer 3 harmonies just cannot be trained in static ZZ.

There are beifits from proper zz standing, if you do it right you will know what they are, if done wrong, you won't know.

Your logic is not right anyway, it is a combination of balance that is needed, not just one thing. If you have a engine, will it run better on gas or water ?, doing only external training is like trying to run your engine using water.

[YouKnowWho]

There are beifits from proper zz standing, if you do it right you will know what they are, if done wrong, you won't know.

Your logic is not right anyway, it is a combination of balance that is needed, not just one thing. If you have a engine, will it run better on gas or water ?, doing only external training is like trying to run your engine using water.

I assume this thread is talking about "health benefit" of ZZ. IMO, the dynamic ZZ has more "health benefit" than the static ZZ.

Here is another example of static ZZ:

http://imageshack.us/a/img705/1382/13taibo1.jpg

and dynamic ZZ.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4LTrw0r6-HQ&feature=youtu.be

[Miqi]

I assume this thread is talking about "health benefit" of ZZ. IMO, the dynamic ZZ has more "health benefit" than the static ZZ.

Here is another example of static ZZ:

http://imageshack.us/a/img705/1382/13taibo1.jpg

and dynamic ZZ.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4LTrw0r6-HQ&feature=youtu.be

This is very much the conclusion that I've come to - although I do believe that some static training is important. Stillness, slow movement and fa li are really all the same thing, done at different speeds and sizes - as someone once said, I can't remember who now but it was a credible source - either old Wang or one of the Yao brothers.

[Miqi]

There are beifits from proper zz standing, if you do it right you will know what they are, if done wrong, you won't know.

Your logic is not right anyway, it is a combination of balance that is needed, not just one thing. If you have a engine, will it run better on gas or water ?, doing only external training is like trying to run your engine using water.

One of the more useful definitions of "internal" is the unfolding of innate, natural ability and knowledge. This is one of the reasons why arcane theory about jins and qi are largely irrelevant - zz cuts stright to the actual physiological and psycho-physiological level.

Sounds grand but it just means that ZZ is very useful because it increases a person's control over their body - i.e. the interconnection between intent and performance, what you want to do and what you do do. This is why it is useful for all sports, and even for medical purposes. Alexander, for example, technique uses some very similar ideas. True though, without proper understanding of the method, it is pointless.

[Miqi]

Oh - now I see why you keep posting misrepresenting others arguments, and distracting double-talk about "truth" and "what is your level"
------------
You are talking about "quan" in a Traditional Chinese Medicine section of this forum.

You then complain about Traditional Chinese concepts, and claim that your chinese concepts (yiquan) is actually science (but you don't have evidence).
---------------
You are talking about "quan" in a health benefits thread.

You then complain and troll about "over valuation" of ZZ and people taking over "quan" in a thread of about Health.

----------

Dear Mathew,
You are dismissed. I recommend going to sit in the darkness, and there to ponder what it really means to oppose real knowledge.

[Miqi]

Cui Rui Bin on zhan zhuang. Quite interesting:


http://apittman.com/blog/teaching/notes-from-an-yi-quan-training-diary

Yao Cheng Guang:

http://yiquan.chinamartialarts.net/Health%20Healing%20Exercises-Yao.htm

[Miqi]

Yao Cheng Rong, (translated by J P Lau):

"There are two goals in Zhang Zhuang: improving health and cultivate the balanced force. If you turn Zhan Zhuang into an endurance practice by seeking only to lengthen your standing time, then you have missed the real meaning; you are doing “dead” standing. You must use visualization to direct your whole-body neuromuscular coordination to seek movement in stillness, to cultivate the internal opposing force pairs and to master your balanced force. Always practice with focused concentration and comfortable natural ease. Breathe naturally; specifically do not pay attention to breathing; do not hold your breath. Match your physical and mental condition to the length of your training time; do not overstress your abilities. "

[rett]

Dear Mathew,
You are dismissed. I recommend going to sit in the darkness, and there to ponder what it really means to oppose real knowledge.

Miqi, you pretentious wanker. You don't represent "real knowledge." You're a just another seeker with an attitude. Your bullying shows just how insecure you really are. And half the time what you say is so pretentious it sounds like you think you're the fat valkyrie in something by Wagner.

[rett]

Do anybody truly believe that to stand still like this,

http://imageshack.us/a/img404/8081/changfightingposture.jpg

will give you better benefit than to move around like this?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0jI_AOWtIrA&feature=youtu.be

Please notice that when you are moving, your

- right hand has to coordinate with your left foot, and
- left hand has to coordinate with your right foot.

The outer 3 harmonies just cannot be trained in static ZZ.

Early in the morning while the body is just waking up, it feels right to stand still for a while.

I don't think I've run into anyone who thinks standing still should exclude movement training.

[Miqi]

Miqi, you pretentious wanker. You don't represent "real knowledge." You're a just another seeker with an attitude. Your bullying shows just how insecure you really are. And half the time what you say is so pretentious it sounds like you think you're the fat valkyrie in something by Wagner.

Yes I am a bully, with a serious attitude. It is not pleasant to train with me. However, the "real knowledge" isn't mine - it's well known information already presented by senior yiquan experts. I reiterate it, but I don't originate it - or where I do, I say so specifically. It is reassuring that we are in opposition to one another on most things.

[Miqi]

Early in the morning while the body is just waking up, it feels right to stand still for a while.



Yes, this is true for me too.

[rett]

Yes I am a bully, with a serious attitude. It is not pleasant to train with me. However, the "real knowledge" isn't mine - it's well known information already presented by senior yiquan experts. I reiterate it, but I don't originate it - or where I do, I say so specifically. It is reassuring that we are in opposition to one another on most things.

http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn193/hlghartmann/valkyrie.jpg

Get over yourself dude.

[Miqi]

http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn193/hlghartmann/valkyrie.jpg

Get over yourself dude.

Did you know that Wang Xiang Zhai was known as "Old man spear and shield"? It's a metaphor for being a contradictory personality - a very "funny bird", as Cui Rui Bin once said. I guess this makes me old lady spear and shield - a funny bird indeed.

[rett]

Yeah, well he didn't have your chainmail tits.

[Miqi]

Yeah, well he didn't have your chainmail tits.

Now "chainmail tits" is a nickname I can live with. Anyway, no, he didn't - but he did have to deal with people like you.

That's as far as I want to go in bickering with you. All the best.

[Miqi]

Looking at current Chinese martial artists, I mostly get the feeling that it is all completely wrong. As for those who rely on Chinese martial arts to make their living, they just should not feel ashamed of studying again from others after they have started teaching. They should not be hard on themselves in spirit, but try hard to follow those who excel over them. They must keep in mind that they should not mislead and harm their students. Nowadays, Chinese martial artists don't know where the spirit of combat science is. While they have no alternative but to make their living out of it, surely they should not instruct people with mystery and violence. That way they might not commit the great error of going as far from the truth as the heaven is from the deep sea. But then again, the weaknesses of these men are too numerous and they cannot be easily influenced over a short period of time. I only hope that they will become conscious of the truth and start to self-examine themselves bit by bit, nothing more.

[rett]

Now "chainmail tits" is a nickname I can live with. Anyway, no, he didn't - but he did have to deal with people like you.

That's as far as I want to go in bickering with you. All the best.

That's fine by me. You've been bickering with others and acting like such a self-absorbed bullying twat that I'm sure you've got your fill for today. Ta ta and cheerio, peace bro, and love out :)

[Miqi]

Che style xingyiquan master Che Xingqian discusses san ti and zhan zhuang:

"7. We do not practice ‘stillness’ [jing gong']. ‘Stillness’ can refer to posture holding, as in zhan zhuang; it can also refer to practices where thought stops or the intention is focused on one place. Of course, zhan zhuang must be practiced; as the saying has it ‘practicing martial arts without holding postures is just but messing around’. San Ti, in particular, encapsulates the postural requirements of xingyi. ‘Of the myriad methods, none leaves San Ti’ ‘Mastering San Ti is halfway to success’. Whilst San Ti should not be held for long periods, it can be done several times a day. Each time you hold San Ti, you should only hold it for a maximum of 10 minutes, but this could be repeated two or three times a day. If you hold San Ti for an hour everytime you train, not only are you losing precious training time, it can also damage the nerves and capillaries in the legs. Overdoing zhan zhuang is one of the reasons why a lot of martial artists suffer leg and knee problems. As for your intention staying in one place, this should only happen in health qigong when your intention rests on one spot – it only needs to do so for a matter of seconds (10 or so is fine), not minutes. There is no health benefit if the intention stays in one place for a long time."

Source: http://wulinmingshi.wordpress.com/category/che-style-xingyiquan/

There's some other stuff in this interview that is good, some that is plainly wrong, particularly the recommendation against bag work - but it's clear that old Che is open to scientific proof that can show if his current ideas are incorrect.

[Matthew]

Sal Canzonieri discusses the importance of body posture briefly in one of his early writings: (http://www.bgtent.com/naturalcma/CMAarticle3.htm)


Two of the main essentials that martial arts concerns itself with, the posture of the body and the way by which the respiration is manipulated, overlap with the above mentioned bodily functions. The circulation of the blood and lymph, because of the obstacles by which weight opposes it (forces of gravity), is effected by the manner in which the body is maneuvered (stretched, twisted, raised, lowered, bent, etc.) so as to make a physical change in the hydraulic mechanisms of the body.

Now - in the article you will see he mentions that there are nei gong methods that are found in most Chinese arts, which assist in this postural alignment. Since it is very hard to correct people in motion, standing post exercises are a great way to utilize this posture-adjustment function.

Although the english translation below could use some further details, Master Shi De Jian, a former XingYi, pigua, Bagua, Chen Taiji practitioner (now Shaolin Monk) explicates the basic idea of Xu Zhuang, (meaning tranquil standing), shaolin most basic foundational Zhan Zhuang:

[noting that Master De Jian first emphasizes the importance of dietary adjustment, and chan mind practice] • Tranquil Stand: As Master Dejian said, “Tranquility is the essence of all Shaolin Wushu.” He also mentioned that some grandmasters in the Shaolin Temple only practice tranquil stand and could achieve very high levels of proficiency [in Wushu]. The tranquil stand looks easy, but it takes time to realize the essence of it. To practice tranquil stand, one should find a place with fresh air early in the morning and stand squarely on both feet to about the shoulders’ width. Raise the hands gently in front of the chest, like a standing monkey. The eyes and mouth close slightly, push the tongue to the roof of the oral cavity gently, and direct the center of gravity forward to the front part of the foot. Stand quietly for five to thirty minutes.

While he recommends five to thirty minutes, I personally found that 30-1 hour in my beginning weeks/months was instrumental in some of the greater postural adjustments and other benefits I received. I've been at that (consistently daily) for a couple years, and when I have time do it considerably longer (30-1 hour) as mind practice. My knee health has improved, although it is hard to say if it is only related to the standing or moving/stepping practices (likely both).

As to the other part that Sal Canzonieri mentions- respiration regulation, I don't know that Sal was specifically referring to breath practice/breathing practice, but Master De Jian also explicates various natural breathing practices that combine these practices.

My understanding is that these can aid in the goal of bringing the mind to an "extreme point" of focus where all distracted thoughts are stilled.

[Robinhood]

I assume this thread is talking about "health benefit" of ZZ. IMO, the dynamic ZZ has more "health benefit" than the static ZZ.

Here is another example of static ZZ:

http://imageshack.us/a/img705/1382/13taibo1.jpg

and dynamic ZZ.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4LTrw0r6-HQ&feature=youtu.be

I wasn't talking about health benefits, but there are many health benefits also.

Sounds like Miqi understands the benefits of proper standing, and his observation of most chinese arts is pretty accurate also.

[YouKnowWho]

Cui Rui Bin on zhan zhuang. Quite interesting:

http://apittman.com/blog/teaching/notes-from-an-yi-quan-training-diary


Can you see the similiarity between YiQuan ZZ and SC ZZ?

YiQuan:

http://imageshack.us/a/img36/4668/r9pw.jpg

SC:

http://imageshack.us/a/img802/7051/13tbzz.jpg

YiQuan:

http://imageshack.us/a/img23/8666/k6jq.jpg

SC:

http://imageshack.us/a/img573/7109/necksurrounding.jpg

[Miqi]

Sal Canzonieri discusses the importance of body posture briefly in one of his early writings: (http://www.bgtent.com/naturalcma/CMAarticle3.htm)



Now - in the article you will see he mentions that there are nei gong methods that are found in most Chinese arts, which assist in this postural alignment. Since it is very hard to correct people in motion, standing post exercises are a great way to utilize this posture-adjustment function.

Although the english translation below could use some further details, Master Shi De Jian, a former XingYi, pigua, Bagua, Chen Taiji practitioner (now Shaolin Monk) explicates the basic idea of Xu Zhuang, (meaning tranquil standing), shaolin most basic foundational Zhan Zhuang:


While he recommends five to thirty minutes, I personally found that 30-1 hour in my beginning weeks/months was instrumental in some of the greater postural adjustments and other benefits I received. I've been at that (consistently daily) for a couple years, and when I have time do it considerably longer (30-1 hour) as mind practice. My knee health has improved, although it is hard to say if it is only related to the standing or moving/stepping practices (likely both).

As to the other part that Sal Canzonieri mentions- respiration regulation, I don't know that Sal was specifically referring to breath practice/breathing practice, but Master De Jian also explicates various natural breathing practices that combine these practices.

My understanding is that these can aid in the goal of bringing the mind to an "extreme point" of focus where all distracted thoughts are stilled.

And then I'll end up like Sal Con-zonieri? Sometimes the way I phrase things makes me sound like I'm from a Wagner opera. What it is, is I edit out the swear words - I'm from a council estate, so I like choice language. When you edit them back in, it creates a whole different meaning. For example, I've eidted out the swear word from in front of the phrase Sal Con-zonieri. And the laugh after.

[Miqi]

Can you see the similiarity between YiQuan ZZ and SC ZZ?

YiQuan:

http://imageshack.us/a/img36/4668/r9pw.jpg

SC:

http://imageshack.us/a/img802/7051/13tbzz.jpg

YiQuan:

http://imageshack.us/a/img23/8666/k6jq.jpg

SC:

http://imageshack.us/a/img573/7109/necksurrounding.jpg

But of course. I should imagine Yiquan "borrowed" these postures from shuai chiao. I'm a big shuai chiao fan myself - and my old coach had enormous respect for SC. I still practice some basic SC moves myself.

[rett]

Perhaps everyone can agree on this statement: "If you stand still, don't do dead standing."

So what is "live" ZZ or Santishi as opposed to "dead"?

(The thread starter was asking in terms of health more than quan I believe.)

[rett]

Since it is very hard to correct people in motion, standing post exercises are a great way to utilize this posture-adjustment function.

This seems to make sense. Could one benefit or purpose of standing still be that it gives the body and mind time to adjust and settle into a better posture and attitude? Time you wouldn't have (at least at first) if you were moving?

In particular, if people tend to rush around a lot in their lives, then maybe they go to the gym and their training is also rushed. They never escape that rushed and hectic feeling except maybe when they are tired and warm right after a workout. ZZ could in part be a corrective for that.


Master De Jian also explicates various natural breathing practices that combine these practices.

My understanding is that these can aid in the goal of bringing the mind to an "extreme point" of focus where all distracted thoughts are stilled.

Simlar or different to basic concentration practices for sitting meditation?

[Miqi]

Perhaps everyone can agree on this statement: "If you stand still, don't do dead standing."

So what is "live" ZZ or Santishi as opposed to "dead"?

(The thread starter was asking in terms of health more than quan I believe.)

There are psychological health benefits immediately from taking any kind of non-harmful action to improve your health - just a change of attitude can sometimes make someone feel a bit better.

Standing will, at first, obviously feel a bit of a chore. And there will be times when it feels like the point is just to endure it. "Live" zz comes from feeling the special kind of resistance that comes when you relax properly, and then squeeze or push, and feel like something is resisting your movement.

I suspect that this is just the nerves firing just enough to initiate movement, but without actually moving the limb. As you practice more, this becomes a much stronger feeling - and you have to fight a bit of a battle to keep relaxing rather than tensing, in order to get the correct feeling. Over time, more and more nerves seem to "fire", and this creates a much stronger feeling. This is sometimes, but not always, used in harmony with visualisation techniques - which can be directed at an injury.

Myself, I think this is just activating parts of our physiology that are normally dormant or under-used - and with it out amazing capacity for healing.

For martial purposes, this feeling should transform into what is mysteriously called movement within stillness, but is really just the very simple practice of almost doing movements - doing them in the mind, but "firing" the nerves that would actually initiate those movements. This can then be extended in to bigger, slow movements. From personal experience, if I don't do this kind of practice I certainly feel less healthy, and capable of producing less power when I hit a bag, say.

For health, the process can be used to target a particular body part to encourage healing. However, I would say there are obviously serious limits on this. I don't knoe all that there is, but I don't buy that it cures cancer, etc. - except maybe there could be an exceptional, miracle case (who knows?) - but for basic health and healing injuries, I've found it extremely useful. I'm in my mid 40s and feel stronger and healthier than ever, even after decades of training.

[Robinhood]

Can you see the similiarity between YiQuan ZZ and SC ZZ?

YiQuan:

http://imageshack.us/a/img36/4668/r9pw.jpg

SC:

http://imageshack.us/a/img802/7051/13tbzz.jpg

YiQuan:

http://imageshack.us/a/img23/8666/k6jq.jpg

SC:

http://imageshack.us/a/img573/7109/necksurrounding.jpg

The outside always looks similar and is easy to copy in any style, the real part important part is on the inside which can't be simply copied or reproduced from pictures or talk.

[YouKnowWho]

The outside always looks similar and is easy to copy in any style, the real part important part is on the inside which can't be simply copied or reproduced from pictures or talk.

The SC 13 Taibao existed long before the YiQuan was born.

http://imageshack.us/a/img219/8412/13taibo.jpg

What do you think the "inside" suppose to do?

[Miqi]

Can you see the similiarity between YiQuan ZZ and SC ZZ?

YiQuan:

http://imageshack.us/a/img36/4668/r9pw.jpg

SC:

http://imageshack.us/a/img802/7051/13tbzz.jpg



I've just read on a youtube video comment that Cui Rui Bin (the guy in the picture) was actually a shuai jiao practitioner before starting yiquan. I don't know if that's true, though.

[Matthew]

This seems to make sense. Could one benefit or purpose of standing still be that it gives the body and mind time to adjust and settle into a better posture and attitude?

Right, and for instance in learning physical labor, such as using an axe - it is easy to strain oneself, pull a muscle, and be generally inefficient with movement (e.g. use your back instead of axe weight). What's the need to be tense all about and why do we walk around forcing things that could naturally happen without stressing us?


Time you wouldn't have (at least at first) if you were moving?
This seems like something I've come across. I always come back to using average farm implements for examples, not because I use them well or am good at using them, but because they are so familiar to many people, and I like to garden.

After letting posture "settle" I notice much more coordinated "effortless" power. This is very important to people of my size (5 8 ish without much weight behind anything).

I believe Sal Canzonieri described this in one of his writings as the elongation of Facial Tissue in the body/spine. That once that facial tissue is naturally elongated, power transmission is more efficient. (Kind of like tuning bicycle tire brakes so that they aren't always rubbing against the wheel). I think this may be related, and why many facial-tissue release programs see such positive results in "decompression" of people with spinal issues.

If Xu Zhuang (the Shaolin fundamental ZZ) can accomplish this decompression/elongation of the facial tissue, then I think it is very worth learning.


In particular, if people tend to rush around a lot in their lives, then maybe they go to the gym and their training is also rushed. They never escape that rushed and hectic feeling except maybe when they are tired and warm right after a workout. ZZ could in part be a corrective for that.

That makes sense. I think many people, including Miqi, wish we had a more scientific understanding of what this "rushed" feeling is, and what is being corrected. I don't blame them, and it would probably cause many people to take a second look, and consider such practices IF there was such scientific proof.

Since I experienced it worked so efficaciously, how could I not praise it for its health benefits.


Simlar or different to basic concentration practices for sitting meditation?

Maybe this approaches the question of Conventional and absolute truth, where the practices themselves are "rafts to leave behind." Where we can utiilize the noumenal concepts to attain phenomenal results that lack modern scientific explanations.

I'm just rambling really though and should get to work on my home improvements for the day

[Miqi]

That makes sense. I think many people, including Miqi, wish we had a more scientific understanding of what this "rushed" feeling is, and what is being corrected. I don't blame them, and it would probably cause many people to take a second look, and consider such practices IF there was such scientific proof.



Actually, I rather suspect that Miqi spends a great deal more time than either of you both in the gym and practicing zz. I don't require any scientific proof as to the veracity of the training method. Although I am humble level in the wider world of yiquan, any day of the week I can demonstrate on a heavy bag the specific mechanics of yiquan punching and power generation that the correct method has led me to. I never need to come up with silly diversions about swinging axes.

I just want to highlight that your explanation, and understanding, is superficial and misleading. However, you've cited Sal Conzonieri as a credible source, so that rather does that job for me.

Relaxation is an element of zz, but if it were only as simple as learning to use an axe in a more relaxed manner, than that woud actually make zz as an independent exercise a meaningless euphemism for relaxation. Which, in your level, it really is.

Now, when you and Rett have something to show of yourselves, then you may speak, and may even justifiably put down others.

[rett]

Swinging axes is not a silly diversion for me as at present I have about 7.5 cubic metres of firewood to finish splitting and chopping up from 4 pines I recently took down.

Both moving and standing practise have been of huge benefit to me in connection with manual labour. Up until a few years ago this much wood would give me some back pain for a while. Now it's going fine, I feel nothing and I can work long stretches at it.

[Miqi]

Swinging axes is not a silly diversion for me as at present I have about 7.5 cubic metres of firewood to finish splitting and chopping up from 4 pines I recently took down.

Both moving and standing practise have been of huge benefit to me in connection with manual labour. Up until a few years ago this much wood would give me some back pain for a while. Now it's going fine, I feel nothing and I can work long stretches at it.

I, of all people, would never doubt this. Nevertheless, Mathew's analogy is intended to get across his position that the purpose of zhan zhuang is merely to teach a person how to be more relaxed and efficient in their movement.

This is wrong in two ways. One, it actually only states the result: relaxation, more efficient movement - and not the method. If zz is equivalent merely to being more relaxed and efficient, then zz IS merely being more relaxed and efficient - not any kind of actual physical method, such as the one I have previously described.

And secondly, because zz IS a physical method, precisely as I have previously described, utilising contradictory and dialectic tensions - dialectic here meaning between stillness and movement, mental and physical, relaxation AND tension.

[Miqi]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SQf3i6j0saw

[YouKnowWho]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SQf3i6j0saw

I don't do this ZZ but I like the way that he moved around.

In 13 Taibao, for every static ZZ, there is a dynamic ZZ associated with it. Some people may not even know the existence of the dynamic ZZ in 13 Taibao.

[Matthew]

I, of all people, would never doubt this. Nevertheless, Mathew's analogy is intended to get across his position that the purpose of zhan zhuang is merely to teach a person how to be more relaxed and efficient in their movement.

At this point I recognize your habitual misrepresentation of others positions is merely your way of passively disagreeing with said imagined position.

I think that would be to mistake a secondary (or tertiary) level benefit for the purpose. I'd have to note many people practice their own variations on ZZ for their own reasons.I practice to collect concentration to an extreme point. The method used is the external manifestation of this purpose (in this case standing zz) which happens to give health benefits and is the topic of this thread.



This .is wrong in two ways. One, it actually only states the result: relaxation, more efficient movement - and not the method. If zz is equivalent merely to being more relaxed and efficient, then zz IS merely being more relaxed and efficient - not any kind of actual physical method, such as the one I have previously described. You've already discovered this and that's great. There are many benefits to being concentrated, whether moving or (relatively) still in body.



And secondly, because zz IS a physical method, precisely as I have previously described, utilising contradictory and dialectic tensions - dialectic here meaning between stillness and movement, mental and physical, relaxation AND tension.
Interesting, I think this relates to motors having a good air to gas ratio to run optimally. Even when throttle is as closed as possible, there is still gas in the mix.

[mawali]

Doc Fai Wong's teacher had a similar routine but his specialty was taijiquan.
He wrote a book about the many standing postures that was part of a conditioning
regimen before entry into taijiquan practice.

[rett]

I, of all people, would never doubt this. Nevertheless, Mathew's analogy is intended to get across his position that the purpose of zhan zhuang is merely to teach a person how to be more relaxed and efficient in their movement.


No it's not. Matthew was just describing some training experiences in a conversational tone and relating them to some ideas. Nowhere did he claim that that is the sole purpose of ZZ nor did he even say that's all he has experienced. It's not even implied in what he wrote in any way.

I criticized you after I saw you make an unprovoked personal attack and distort people's views to ridicule them. You've done this several times elsewhere. Whether out of malice or just plain stupidity remains to be seen. You also demand evidence shrilly (sometimes for claims no one has made) but when you make a controversial claim you refuse to provide evidence for it.

You basically appear to be looking to manufacture conflicts so that you can trumpet your own perceived superiority. You behave as a bully (what you call "justifiably putting down others" in your own words) and you look for opportunities to bicker. And when you are called on it, then you suddenly start saying "let’s not bicker mate" and pose as the victim only to attack again shortly after.

Why don't you drop the posturing, the bullying, and the straw men? If you are as expert as you claim, then you should have no need to put down others to prove it. But if you are insecure, then I can understand why you bully.

[Miqi]

No it's not. Matthew was just describing some training experiences in a conversational tone and relating them to some ideas. Nowhere did he claim that that is the sole purpose of ZZ nor did he even say that's all he has experienced. It's not even implied in what he wrote in any way.

I criticized you after I saw you make an unprovoked personal attack and distort people's views to ridicule them. You've done this several times elsewhere. Whether out of malice or just plain stupidity remains to be seen. You also demand evidence shrilly (sometimes for claims no one has made) but when you make a controversial claim you refuse to provide evidence for it.

You basically appear to be looking to manufacture conflicts so that you can trumpet your own perceived superiority. You behave as a bully (what you call "justifiably putting down others" in your own words) and you look for opportunities to bicker. And when you are called on it, then you suddenly start saying "let’s not bicker mate" and pose as the victim only to attack again shortly after.

Why don't you drop the posturing, the bullying, and the straw men? If you are as expert as you claim, then you should have no need to put down others to prove it. But if you are insecure, then I can understand why you bully.

Is it alright with you if just don't engage this? All I really want from you is total acceptance that I know a great deal more than you. Then actual, useful knowledge can be promoted. Nothing personal. Mate.

[Miqi]

At this point I recognize your habitual misrepresentation of others positions is merely your way of passively disagreeing with said imagined position.

You make it sound like it's my fault that I'm not "getting" your metaphors and stories. But that's really the point, isn't it? Words are always like this, hence their usefulness for obfuscation.




I think that would be to mistake a secondary (or tertiary) level benefit for the purpose. I'd have to note many people practice their own variations on ZZ for their own reasons.I practice to collect concentration to an extreme point. The method used is the external manifestation of this purpose (in this case standing zz) which happens to give health benefits and is the topic of this thread.


There are indeed a great many people who practice zhan zhuang, and many who practice for health, and couldn't possibly provide evidence for that, as I couldn't - except for my astonishing health, vigour and good looks. But they aren't on the internet undermining me, as I explain how useful zz is, and how to get the bests results.




You've already discovered this and that's great. There are many benefits to being concentrated, whether moving or (relatively) still in body.


In all seriousness, all that really irritates me about you is that by pretending to be in some way to be speaking from a superior position or knowledge, you're hindering me in getting across actual, simple, factual and useful information. When you "discover" that, then that will be great.




Interesting, I think this relates to motors having a good air to gas ratio to run optimally. Even when throttle is as closed as possible, there is still gas in the mix.

Nonsense.

[Miqi]

There are two poles to the misunderstanding of... standing pole. One pole is the mistaken belief/experience that it is merely an exercise in endurance or relaxation.

The other is the opportunity it provides to pretend to have obtained a mysterious energy skill. Here's a fraud from where I live:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k74clw7uyv8

You actually hear the hoaxer in this video say "mysterious energy".

The hoaxers are by far the most serious problem. But the other pole is not helpful, either. It is very important, in that case, to be clear about physical practices - to be clear about what it is that you're recommending, and why.

Too often, when you strip back the metaphors, people are only really saying "relax and endure". Worse is, when that's pointed out, they say "I didn't even say that!" And yet never say anything but that. That is another kind of hoax, in its own way - although, not intentional, nor in the same league as the deathless shame of the above fraud.

[rett]

Is it alright with you if just don't engage this? All I really want from you is total acceptance that I know a great deal more than you. Then actual, useful knowledge can be promoted. Nothing personal. Mate.

Whatever, dude :rolleyes:

I might listen to what you have to say some time in future when you stop grossly misrepresenting what others are saying and implying to further your own self-aggrandizing fantasies.

[Sihing73]

Morning,

Since this has seemed to digress into a discussion of Zhan Zhuang more than Santi I will ask if anyone has read this book or has any opinion on it and it's validity or usefulness.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0988317885/ref=s9_wishf_gw_d65_g14_t?ie=UTF8&colid=1KY8CY2JDZXKV&coliid=I292MVWNA9WQHL&pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_s=right-3&pf_rd_r=0GM6AXFHNK1PF***BQEC&pf_rd_t=101&pf_rd_p=1367759382&pf_rd_i=507846

Again, I am more curious about the health benefits more than any mystical practice.

[Miqi]

Whatever, dude :rolleyes:

I might listen to what you have to say some time in future when you stop grossly misrepresenting what others are saying and implying to further your own self-aggrandizing fantasies.

You should listen to what is true, or useful.

[Miqi]

Morning,

Since this has seemed to digress into a discussion of Zhan Zhuang more than Santi I will ask if anyone has read this book or has any opinion on it and it's validity or usefulness.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0988317885/ref=s9_wishf_gw_d65_g14_t?ie=UTF8&colid=1KY8CY2JDZXKV&coliid=I292MVWNA9WQHL&pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_s=right-3&pf_rd_r=0GM6AXFHNK1PF***BQEC&pf_rd_t=101&pf_rd_p=1367759382&pf_rd_i=507846

Again, I am more curious about the health benefits more than any mystical practice.


Hi Dave,
Mark Cohen is an obnoxious fraud, and a true enemy of quan. Like all such, he lives in fear and deathless shame.

[YouKnowWho]

ZZ can "polish" your combat skill as well. It's not difficult to see that the following stance

http://imageshack.us/a/img718/3319/chang13tb.jpg

can help you to "polish" your "leg lift" throw (Uchi Mata).

http://imageshack.us/a/img831/4315/linleglift.jpg

and "leg block" throw (O Guruma).

http://imageshack.us/a/img19/3762/johnleglift.jpg

The static stances can help you to push yourself much harder than the true application can. If your body can't feel comfortable to be in certain shape, you just can't do certain techniques well.

Static stances and applications:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6fdOUViyJXg

[Miqi]

Agreed. Emphasising that ZZ is only one, supplementary, training practice within a wider regime is important. Even for health benefits, other factors are important, such as diet, exercise that actually increases fitness etc.

Yiquan master Cui Rui Bin argues somewhere - I can’t remember where offhand – that if you only have two hours to practice, then you should do two hours of ZZ. I won’t be usurping Master Cui’s position as a senior expert any time soon, but I simply can’t agree with this.

Yiquan is intended to adapt to personal characteristics, training needs, circumstances, physiology, time, ambitions and the current state of martial arts knowledge. As such, no one can really say how much or how little ZZ you should be doing, as this will vary. But I would say that in most cases, no more than a fifth, or quarter at most, of available training time should be spent practicing ZZ, in either still or moving form. There is simply too much other stuff that needs to be trained in this day and age.

However, I will emphasise my opinion that ZZ improves one’s rate of improvement, by increasing one’s capacity for more refined physical movement. But there has to be something to improve – something that ZZ is supplementary to.

[rett]

Anyhow, I am wondering if there are any reported health benefits from performing just the Santi or even just doing Standing Postures such as Zhan Zhuang.

A search on google scholar for the string "zhan zhuang" (with the quotation marks) appears to only turn up studies where one author is named "zhuang" and things like that. San Tishi doesn't appear to give anything relevent either (even spelled different ways).

However searching on the string "standing meditation" gives many results for papers studying health effects of standing meditation in the context of qigong.

http://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=%22standing+meditation%22&btnG=&hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C5

Hope this can be of help.

[Miqi]

Not quite standing mediation, but meditation itself is currently being hailed as an almost mirracle cure for tinnitus in some cases. This is a news paper reprt, but I believe the medical findings are quite hopeful:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-1281129/Tinnitus-Try-meditating.html

[Spiked]

Hello,

I know that Hsing Yi practice of the Five fists is supposed to have health benefits.
Each fist is reputed to stimulate a specific organ.

My question is regarding the Santi Shi posture or Trinity Pole Standing.
Santi is the posture which originates the fists, perhaps I am not explaining it properly but essentially it is the standing posture taken in the beginning and the fists move from that posture.

Anyhow, I am wondering if there are any reported health benefits from performing just the Santi or even just doing Standing Postures such as Zhan Zhuang.

I am genuinely curious as I have started practicing the Santi this past week and it seems that I have seen a decrease in my blood sugar levels. I am wondering if this is related or simply a coincidence. Although, I have not made any changes to my diet or exercise and actually have taken less of my medication.

Any input would be appreciated.

Doing this for a few minutes on each side daily is a good thing for spine health and for isometric strength. If you are doing it for mediation purposes then longer cools be beneficial as long as you are not hurting yourself.

[daisy91]

As far as I know, Santi Shi or Trinity pile standing is the most important and fundamental training in Xingyi Quan practice. It is said that “Santi Shi is the source of all skills.” In traditional training, beginners need to learn Santi Shi and practice it for a long time before they can be taught other skills. Practicing Santi Shi can help practitioners improve their movements and the integration of internal and external components. Stability and rooting can also be increased by this practice, as can relaxation and the control and use of shen, yi, qi and jin. Santi Shi training is emphasized in every Xingyi Quan group and will be presented here as a foundation training for martial arts fighting skills.