Fung Wah /Leung Bik

[kung fu fighter]

Fung Wah was a student of Leung Jan’s during the timer period Leung was teaching In Foshan. Very little is known about Fung Wah. It has been passed down in the Oral Traditions of Yip Man and Moy Yat that, “Leung Bik”, the suppoded second teacher of Yip Man, was actually Fung Wah or Fung Wah’s Top Diciple. Moy Yat, Yip Ching and Yip Chung were a few of the officiators at his funeral. Which Moy Yat and the Yip Brothers continued to visit and pay there respects to.

Is there a linage of wing chun that decend from Fung Wah?

[KPM]

There is also this from the other thread:

Originally Posted by dlcox:
For what it's worth. An oral legend passed down to me from the Nguyen Duy Hai line states pretty much the same story. Nguyen Duy Hai was a disciple of Ruan Ji Yun and brother of Ruan Kai Shan. Ruan Ji Yun was the teacher of Yu Cai. It was also stated that Leung Bik (Liang Bi) was actually an adopted son of Liang Zan by the name of Fang Hua, and it was Chen Hua Shun that called him Liang Bi (Stubborn Liang).

[KPM]

And, one never knows what to believe, but there is this:

http://kwansao.wordpress.com/2012/06/30/new-photo-of-leung-bik-released/

BTW, Fung Wah is a bus line that ran from New York City Chinatown to Boston. ;)

[aaronh_sf]

And, one never knows what to believe, but there is this:

http://kwansao.wordpress.com/2012/06/30/new-photo-of-leung-bik-released/

BTW, Fung Wah is a bus line that ran from New York City Chinatown to Boston. ;)

Please see this post for an explanation of that image's origin:
http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?67391-This-website-says-that-these-are-Pictures-of-Leung-Jan-Leung-Bik&p=1263586#post1263586

aaron

[Firehawk4]

http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?25775-Fung-Wah

[Firehawk4]

Maybe Fung Wah might be this student that went to Taiwan called Lo Kwai a student of Leuing Jan http://www.wingchunpedia.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php?n=WCP.LoKwaiChaoFamilySystem

[Firehawk4]

I thought in the Complete Wing Chun book it says that Leung Jan had a student named Wooden Man Wah maybe he is Fung Wah .

[hunt1]

Maybe Fung Wah might be this student that went to Taiwan called Lo Kwai a student of Leuing Jan http://www.wingchunpedia.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php?n=WCP.LoKwaiChaoFamilySystem


No. Fung Wah was a friend of Lo Kwai. Lo Kwai shared his Knife form with Fung Wah but not the same person . Lo Kwai did not go to Taiwan his family did sometime after his death. See link below. Lo Kwai was known for his knife work. he was Leung Jan's second at Leung Jan's challange fights and he was the one that arranged the meeting between Leung Jan, Chan Wah and Fung Siu Ching. This prevented a true fight between Chan Wah and Fung . Fung and Chan Wah were about the same age but Leung Jan was just about to retire. It was decided that Leung's wing chun and Fung's Weng Chun shared the same source but had developed differently. Weng Chun coming off the Red Boats 20 years or so after Wing Chun.

http://www.wingchunpedia.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php?n=WCP.TheHistoryOfWingChunAccordingToLo Kwai-ByChaoFamily




http://www.wingchunpedia.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php?n=WCP.Histories

[chunner]

thanks hunt for sharing. just curious but any similarities to the cho 1 form (first part) that hendrik showed before?

Also, does Lo Kwai lineage have any comment on what LYT's material was was specifically? Is it possible that LYT's stuff is what Leung Jan based PSWC on?



No. Fung Wah was a friend of Lo Kwai. Lo Kwai shared his Knife form with Fung Wah but not the same person . Lo Kwai did not go to Taiwan his family did sometime after his death. See link below. Lo Kwai was known for his knife work. he was Leung Jan's second at Leung Jan's challange fights and he was the one that arranged the meeting between Leung Jan, Chan Wah and Fung Siu Ching. This prevented a true fight between Chan Wah and Fung . Fung and Chan Wah were about the same age but Leung Jan was just about to retire. It was decided that Leung's wing chun and Fung's Weng Chun shared the same source but had developed differently. Weng Chun coming off the Red Boats 20 years or so after Wing Chun.

http://www.wingchunpedia.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php?n=WCP.TheHistoryOfWingChunAccordingToLo Kwai-ByChaoFamily




http://www.wingchunpedia.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php?n=WCP.Histories

[hunt1]

thanks hunt for sharing. just curious but any similarities to the cho 1 form (first part) that hendrik showed before?

Also, does Lo Kwai lineage have any comment on what LYT's material was was specifically? Is it possible that LYT's stuff is what Leung Jan based PSWC on?



I have no knowledge of Cho Family wing chun and don't recall what Hendrick shown so I can't answer this.

Kwai family maintains a written history so they do have some comments on LYT teaching but it's more you can do X this way or that way. LYT preferred this way because. Not this was LYT curriculum this was WWB. It is possible what Leung Jan learned from LYT was basis for PSWC but I don't know PSWC soIcan't say what part of what they do is from where.

[chunner]

Thanks Hunt, I didn't unite catch the last part but you were saying Lyt was showing LJ some stuff but it wasn't like this is WWB and this is LYT, kind of informal it sounds like?

This is what Hendrik has put out the first section of his slt, any similarity to Kwai ? Does Kwai family also have LJs kuit?

http://youtu.be/g77i-pznhtA


I have no knowledge of Cho Family wing chun and don't recall what Hendrick shown so I can't answer this.

Kwai family maintains a written history so they do have some comments on LYT teaching but it's more you can do X this way or that way. LYT preferred this way because. Not this was LYT curriculum this was WWB. It is possible what Leung Jan learned from LYT was basis for PSWC but I don't know PSWC soIcan't say what part of what they do is from where.

[hunt1]

Thanks Hunt, I didn't unite catch the last part but you were saying Lyt was showing LJ some stuff but it wasn't like this is WWB and this is LYT, kind of informal it sounds like?

Exactly. evrything was taught but at the time things were not so formal.

This is what Hendrik has put out the first section of his slt, any similarity to Kwai ? Does Kwai family also have LJs kuit?

http://youtu.be/g77i-pznhtA

Interesting. There are some surprising similar things but Many differences too. Kwai family has kuit but some I have not seen other places. Focus though has always been on function over form. For example " Other hand always comes". If you have fighting background you will understand this one and how it applies to wing chun in actual usage. Have the usual receive what comes follow what goes etc.

[Cheito Ito]

Southern Preying Mantis, has a form called Three Step Arrow. you do see lots of the hands that wing chun has in there form. SLT. I;m just saying.


Cheito Ito

[chunner]

Interesting. There are some surprising similar things but Many differences too. Kwai family has kuit but some I have not seen other places. Focus though has always been on function over form. For example " Other hand always comes". If you have fighting background you will understand this one and how it applies to wing chun in actual usage. Have the usual receive what comes follow what goes etc.

Thanks Hunt, would you say the differences are content (hands ie Pak) or order etc? Just trying to get sense of what you mean

What surprised you about it?

[hunt1]

Hunt1 tried to PM you, your box is full.


I cleaned out my box.

[hunt1]

Thanks Hunt, would you say the differences are content (hands ie Pak) or order etc? Just trying to get sense of what you mean

What surprised you about it?


I have been planning on sending Hendrik a vid of the first form and the sections of the dummy that do not have a corresponding section in the Yip Man form. If i can figure out how I will place online where you can watch it. Easier than describing.

[hunt1]

Don't all the older lines stemming from Leung Jan practice a 'fourth' empty hand form? Chan Wah Shun's family has Sei Men Kuen, Ng Chun So had Jin Kuen, Lo Kwai has one etc. Usually stemming around some variation of the arrow concept. If Fung Wah/Leung Bik had been a student of Leung Jan and only one student, Ip Man, wouldn't he have passed on this 4th form concept? Could be Ip Man didn't learn it, think it useful or added it to the Jong. Interesting that these other students of Leung Jan passed on a 4th form but not Leung Bik.

Kwai family 4th form is basically those concepts and idea's that did not make it into the 3 standard forms. However many of the concepts became including in our knife and dummy forms. Basically 4th form are parts of the original long form plus some LYT san sik.

[KPM]

Hi Guys!

hunt1 & dlcox (it would be nice to know some real names ;) ) I was wondering if both of you could lay out your lineage for us and what version of WCK you have learned. What both of you have to say is very interesting, but without knowing where you are coming from makes the context of it all more difficult to place. Thanks!

[hunt1]

Thanks for the reply. Seems that any extra material was essentially added to the jong and weapons or left out all together. In your opinion does this added material add anything new to the system? I can in all honesty say that my 'Arrow" form really brings nothing new to the table. It is essentially just a cliff notes version of the 3 standard forms. I keep it for sentimental reasons.


I am with you. Its part of the tradition but if you don't learn it I dont think you miss anything. There are a few interesting Ideas some footwork and different elbows but nothing that doesn't pop up if you experiment with the dummy sections and empty hand weapon forms

[hunt1]

Hi Guys!

hunt1 & dlcox (it would be nice to know some real names ;) ) I was wondering if both of you could lay out your lineage for us and what version of WCK you have learned. What both of you have to say is very interesting, but without knowing where you are coming from makes the context of it all more difficult to place. Thanks!


Hunter von Unschuld. Lineage all over the place. First teacher Richard Chen who was a student of Jui Wan and also one of Moy Yats early disciples. Most time in years spent with Phil Nearing. some trips to visit TST among others ,time with Sam Kwok and Yip Brothers, eye opening weekend with Robert Chu. A few days visiting with a student of Yip Bo Ching. A little Andeas Hoffman time. Final student of Chao Ng Kwai,actually his project to fight boredom was to fix my wing chun. After his death Danny Chao would visit me once a year to fill in what ever his grandfather didn't show me although I think it was just an excuse to play in the cash poker games here.

[KPM]

Hunter von Unschuld. Lineage all over the place. First teacher Richard Chen who was a student of Jui Wan and also one of Moy Yats early disciples. Most time in years spent with Phil Nearing. some trips to visit TST among others ,time with Sam Kwok and Yip Brothers, eye opening weekend with Robert Chu. A few days visiting with a student of Yip Bo Ching. A little Andeas Hoffman time. Final student of Chao Ng Kwai,actually his project to fight boredom was to fix my wing chun. After his death Danny Chao would visit me once a year to fill in what ever his grandfather didn't show me although I think it was just an excuse to play in the cash poker games here.

Thanks Hunter! I grew up in NM, went to NMSU, and my brother-in-law lives just outside of Tierras. Maybe someday we can get together for lunch when I'm visiting. My wife makes it back more often than I do.

What is the background of the Wing Chun that Chao Ng Kwai showed you? Does it trace back to Leung Jan or someone else? Thanks!

[hunt1]

Thanks Hunter! I grew up in NM, went to NMSU, and my brother-in-law lives just outside of Tierras. Maybe someday we can get together for lunch when I'm visiting. My wife makes it back more often than I do.

What is the background of the Wing Chun that Chao Ng Kwai showed you? Does it trace back to Leung Jan or someone else? Thanks!

Thats great Keith. Give me a heads up and we can get some green chili.

Lo Kwai is the source from Leung Jan. Chao Ng Kwai was the son of Lo Kwai's nephew.

[kung fu fighter]

Hi Keith,

This is my line(s) to the best of my knowledge. Sorry for the bad scan.

Hi dlcox,

Are you from leung Jan's student Fung Wah's linage or Yuen Chai Wan's Vietnamese wing chun?

[kung fu fighter]

Standard Ip Man WC 3 forms (san sik, SNT, CK, BJ, Pole & Knives), Yuen Chai Wan (san sik, chi kung).

Do you practice Fung Wah linage wing chun?

[PalmStriker]

One researcher seems to consider Leung Bik's teaching role a given (fact): http://chinesemartialstudies.com/2014/03/20/conceptualizing-the-asian-martial-arts-ancient-origins-social-institutions-and-leung-jans-wing-chun/

[KPM]

One researcher seems to consider Leung Bik's teaching role a given (fact): http://chinesemartialstudies.com/2014/03/20/conceptualizing-the-asian-martial-arts-ancient-origins-social-institutions-and-leung-jans-wing-chun/

Interesting article! Thanks for the link! Here is what the author had to say about the Ip Man/Leung Bik connection:

In total, Chan Wah Shun only taught about 16 students over the course of his career. The last of these was the son of his landlord, a child named Ip Kai Man. Unfortunately Chan soon fell ill and later suffered from a stroke. Most of Ip Man’s training seems to have come from Chan’s second disciple, Ng Chung So.

The actual nature of Ip Man’s introduction to Wing Chun is somewhat hard to disentangle. As the son of a rich merchant and landlord he spent most of his days studying literature rather than Kung Fu. Then, as a teenager, he was sent to Hong Kong to attend a western high school. This might have put an end to his Wing Chun training except that by an accident of fate he was introduced to Leung Bik, Leung Jan’s remaining son.

The elderly Leung Bik had never sought to teach Kung Fu and had not been involved with the new commercial institutions that were quickly transforming the world of the southern Chinese martial arts. Instead his relationship with Ip Man seems to have reflected the older 19th century patterns. He moved in with new student, who provided him with food, clothing and housing, in exchange for tuition. In short, Leung Bik became a temporary member of the wealthy young student’s household.

This actually puts Ip Man in a very interesting position. Much has been made of the fact that he received both a Confucian and Western education. But in terms of understanding his Wing Chun, it is important to realize that he likewise received both a modern early 20th century and a more traditional 19th century introduction to the martial arts as well. Few if any of Chan Wah Shun’s other students (perhaps with the exception of some of those who had previously studied in another style) could say this.

Ip Man carefully considered what he learned from both Chan Wah Shun and Leung Bik. By his own admission he thought deeply about not just their techniques, but how they taught as well. Except for a brief episode in the 1940s, Ip Man avoided opening his own school in Guangdong during the volatile Republic of China years. Yet after fleeing to Hong Kong in 1949 he was left with little other choice.

Obviously he puts more detail into the story than most Yip Man people that retell it! Where did that extra detail come from? He talks about research and being a social scientist, but does not list references or note his sources. I think he is interjecting a lot of his own assumptions into this narrative, and isn't that one of the huge problems in sorting out myth from fact???

[kung fu fighter]

Does anyone know what the literal chinese words "Leung Bik" means? perhaps that can give us a clue as to who leung Bik refers to?

[LFJ]

Does anyone know what the literal chinese words "Leung Bik" means? perhaps that can give us a clue as to who leung Bik refers to?

Ha, his given name Bik means 'wall'. Refers to a dead end I suppose. :p

[Vajramusti]

One researcher seems to consider Leung Bik's teaching role a given (fact): http://chinesemartialstudies.com/2014/03/20/conceptualizing-the-asian-martial-arts-ancient-origins-social-institutions-and-leung-jans-wing-chun/
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Interesting article!!
The oral story I heard was also very similar. Ip Man's comments on LB . IM asked his father for additional money because of his support for Leung Bik in his earlier stay in HK when LB was old... Leung Bik also had a daughter whose footwork at one time was superior to that of Ip Man. She did not teach anyone. And Leung Bik did not teach in a school. Old time kung fu people generally had only a few students and who were close to them unlike commercial schools today.

More important than the could have been speculations and "history" is the physical evidence. Ip Man's kung fu is different from that of Chan Wah Shun, YKS and others. And weng chun as well.When Ip Man says that he learned a deeper and more systematic wing chun from
Leung Bik, I dont see a need for being obsessed with it. Ip Man had many people attend his HK classes ( he taught some individuals before HK but did not have a formal school)- but only a handful got a deep sense of what wing chun is about. It takes consistent and regular and good instruction for 6 to 8 years IMO to learn wing chun in any depth.I also do san sik motions and drills... as applications of wing chun concepts and notes on the form. But the notes are not the symphony. Unfortunately much of contemporary wig chun that I see
is made up ex nihilo. The san sik that I do involves different combinations of 20 motions which can be done solo or with a partner.

Ho Kam Ming' intense learning with Ip Man was regular for7years. He kept in regular contact withIM after that.He was with IMin HK earlier on the day that he died. When HKM returned to Macao Ip Ching called him to tell him
that IM had just died.IM gave him a copy of Leung Jan's notes . Ip Chun has a copy.

Leung Jan apart from being present at a critical time in kung fu development was a great master of the pole. Unconfirmed but interesting story - he defeateda great Hung master possibly the greatWong Fei Hung.

There really isnt an elaborate wing chun history- and it's not necessary for doing wing chun. Getting good instruction, understanding throughly the concepts and principles, practice and application and experience
are far more important than idle speculation. Getting people to agree with you is no history- instead it is an example of the fallacy of misplaced concreteness.

joy chaudhuri

[KPM]

IMO I don't see Ip Man passing up the opportunity to study with a direct disciple of Leung Jan. So if they were not the same individual, why is Fung Wah not mentioned in IMWC history when they obviously had a close enough relationship that IP Man's sons participated in his funeral? Ip Man sought out several WC people and this is no secret. Makes me wonder what controversy surrounded Fung Wah that he would essentially be erased from WC history?

.

I agree with your observation. If Fung Wah was a Leung Jan student why was he not mentioned in IMWC history? If Ip Man studied with Fung Wah and he was a Leung Jan student, then this would have been justification enough for why his Wing Chun changed. There would have been no need to switch his name to Leung Bik. So was there something about Fung Wah later in life that made Ip Man not want to be associated with him? Was Leung Bik a nickname for Fung Wah that was known by enough people that it was just accepted? Did Fung Wah have a reason for asking Ip Man to keep their relationship on the down-low? Very interesting!

If Leung Bik had a daughter as Joy stated, then he very likely has existing family members. Why have they not surfaced or been located? But....if that daughter was actually Fung Wah's daughter and no one associates their family with Leung Bik, that would explain it.

[Firehawk4]

What about a student of Leung Jan named Lai Yeung Yin who taught Wong Jing maybe he taught Yip Man and might be known as Fung Wah ?

[Firehawk4]

n Foshan. His other students consisted mainly of the wealthy owners of local businesses and inclued Leung Kay (Lao Man Kay, Rascal Kay), Leung Wah (Muk Yan Wah, Wooden Man Wah), Lo Kwai (Chu Yuk Kwai, Butcher Kwai, sometimes rendered as Chan Kwai), Fung Wah, and pharmacy employee Ngau Shu (San Dai Shu, Big Mountain Shu),

[Vajramusti]

[QUOTE=KPM;1263787] If Leung Bik had a daughter as Joy stated, then he very likely has existing family members. Why have they not surfaced or been located?
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Possibly a chat between posters on a KFO magazine thread does not stir folks in China or other
relevant places or pea nut-pop corn or dim sum galleries in the world.

[KPM]

[QUOTE=KPM;1263787] If Leung Bik had a daughter as Joy stated, then he very likely has existing family members. Why have they not surfaced or been located?
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Possibly a chat between posters on a KFO magazine thread does not stir folks in China or other
relevant places or pea nut-pop corn or dim sum galleries in the world.

Yes, but people like Sifu Sergio, Leung Ting, and others have actually traveled about asking and searching for such leads. They've done a lot more than just have some chats on a discussion board!

[KPM]

n Foshan. His other students consisted mainly of the wealthy owners of local businesses and inclued Leung Kay (Lao Man Kay, Rascal Kay), Leung Wah (Muk Yan Wah, Wooden Man Wah), Lo Kwai (Chu Yuk Kwai, Butcher Kwai, sometimes rendered as Chan Kwai), Fung Wah, and pharmacy employee Ngau Shu (San Dai Shu, Big Mountain Shu),

in the list of Leung Jan students it occurs to me that there are 3 other students besides Leung Bik that have the surname of "Leung." Coincidence? Relatives? Or is it possible these were nicknames in the same tradition that we see with Moy Yat disciples where many of them were given a "Moy" Chinese name?

[hunt1]

in the list of Leung Jan students it occurs to me that there are 3 other students besides Leung Bik that have the surname of "Leung." Coincidence? Relatives? Or is it possible these were nicknames in the same tradition that we see with Moy Yat disciples where many of them were given a "Moy" Chinese name?


This is part of the problem of historical martial arts research. The Chinese penchant for nicknames and adoptive names. Moy Yat was just being traditional by giving his disciples a "Moy" family name. "Sifu" means father. In tradition when you became an apprentice and accepted to learn a skill be it brick layer or martial arts you would receive an adoptive name from your "father". Then you also had names that reflected your occupation such as "Money Changer" or "Butcher". People often became known more by their nicknames or adoptive name than by their original family name.

[Vajramusti]

This is part of the problem of historical martial arts research. The Chinese penchant for nicknames and adoptive names. Moy Yat was just being traditional by giving his disciples a "Moy" family name. "Sifu" means father. In tradition when you became an apprentice and accepted to learn a skill be it brick layer or martial arts you would receive an adoptive name from your "father". Then you also had names that reflected your occupation such as "Money Changer" or "Butcher". People often became known more by their nicknames or adoptive name than by their original family name.
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Not just in China. In some other parts of the world as well... nicknames becoming names, occupations becoming names, villages becoming names etc.
In my case my family lineage list exists in a chain of persons and names for over 1500 years...but Chaudhuri was a title--- the real family name is used in rituals related to birth, marriage, death etc

One has to be careful in even interpreting calligraphy. An example of interpretation in translation creating problems..
Bodhidharma crossing the Yangtze river on a reed or a boat made out of reeds--- which are still seen in some crossings.
There is more to scholarship and accuracy than knowing a language, reading or carrying a camera or chatting on a forum.
Then there is the old problem of proof by authority.

[KPM]

---
There is more to scholarship and accuracy than knowing a language, reading or carrying a camera or chatting on a forum.
.

Or seeing a few youtube clips or spending an hour or so with someone demo'ing their style! ;):)

[kung fu fighter]

Lee Man (Yip Man's Friend) Made up the story of Yip Learning From Leung bik in Hong Kong to create more interest in the system. Due to the fact Leung Jan was already a well known Hero and kung fu fighter, they tried to Link Yip Man Directly to Dr. Leung Jan.

Similar to how so many people tried to ride on Bruce Lee's coattails after he died

[Vajramusti]

Lee Man (Yip Man's Friend) Made up the story of Yip Learning From Leung bik in Hong Kong to create more interest in the system. Due to the fact Leung Jan was already a well known Hero and kung fu fighter, they tried to Link Yip Man Directly to Dr. Leung Jan.

Similar to how so many people tried to ride on Bruce Lee's coattails after he died
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Coulda been Lee Man taught Ip Man but Ip Man kept him in the background..after all some people still offer incense at Lee man's grave.

History gone viral:-

[PalmStriker]

One thing seems to be certain, IMHO, and that is: Master Ip Chun is the son of GreatMaster Yip Man. He looks just like him. I find this vid to be meditationally so. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R3SGBZ3x2vM