Do you pull your leg back after kicking?

[YouKnowWho]

Sometime you may want to use your kick to set up your punch. In order to do so, you will need to move from your kicking range into your punching range. If you pull your kicking leg back, you will still be in your kicking range. Even if you can step in after that, it will take you an extra unnecessary step. If you don't pull your kicking leg back, your leg may be caught by your opponent, and you have to deal with it.

What's your opinion on this?

[GoldenBrain]

A lot of the kicks I throw are defensive distance creators to give me space, so for those I do pull back. When closing distance such as with thrusting or skip in type kicks I don't pull back but rather follow through in order to get inside. As for setting up kicks with punches it depends. If they are moving away from me after the punch then it's follow through. If I didn't make good contact and they are standing in place or moving sideways then I pull back.

[Ben Gash]

I tend to see less of a clear distinction between kicking and punching range, I find it something of a false distinction.
If you train to retract your leg it means you don't drop it down unless you intend to, which means you're less likely to get your clock cleaned by a counterpunch if you miss.

[-N-]

Sometime you may want to use your kick to set up your punch. In order to do so, you will need to move from your kicking range into your punching range. If you pull your kicking leg back, you will still be in your kicking range. Even if you can step in after that, it will take you an extra unnecessary step. If you don't pull your kicking leg back, your leg may be caught by your opponent, and you have to deal with it.

What's your opinion on this?

I know you are bored because you are asking another one of those simplified "either/or" questions again :)

Depends on the type of kick, and what is your target, and what kind of body mechanics you can do.

Is it a speed kick like a groin shot? Is it a power kick like round house to the thigh? Or is it a shin kick or cross kick that attacks the footwork? Is it a sweep? Do you sink your weight on your power kicks? How is the mobility of your footwork? Can you run and kick and take down your opponent with your footwork/kicks? Is it a round house to the knee or to the calf? Do you stick and press (tip kao) with your footwork?

[PalmStriker]

Stop boring us with your longwindedness and just answer the question. ;)

[YouKnowWho]

I know you are bored because you are asking another one of those simplified "either/or" questions again :)
I think this thread is at least more interested than whether Bruce Lee had beaten up someone or not. :) Simple question? Yes, but since it may be the 1st move of your initial attack, how to plan what to do next can be interest discussion.

Yesterday when I trained in the park by myself. I drilled "side kick, turn back kick" combo. A guy (later on he told me that he was a Shodoken Karate guy) walked by me and said that I should pull my leg back after kicking. We then had some discussion about this issue.

In the longfist system, when you throw your left side kick (or back kick) out, if your opponent uses his

1. right arm to block it and make your body to spin to your left, you will borrow his spinning force, and use your right palm to strike on his neck.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a_dyk-9Rh4Y

2. left arm to block it and make your body to spin to your right, you will also borrow his spinning force, and use your right spin back fist to punch on his head.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1HOjZ13M9T0

In both cases, you don't pull your kicking leg back.

Since the side kick is very easy to be caught, The moment that your opponent gets hold on your kicking leg, you can stick your leg behind his leading leg, put all your weight on that leg, and lift your back leg in the air. This way not only your opponent has to deal with your entire body weight, he also has to deal with your both free hands as well. Sine he will need to use at least one arm to hold on your leg, your 2 free hands will have advantage. It may help you to obtain your "clinching".

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T7UdDVcwWwg

[Jimbo]

YKW,
In your 1st two examples, the kick has been blocked/redirected, so there wasn't an opportunity for you to retract the leg. For myself, most of the time ( but also depending on the kick, the level, etc.), I prefer to pull it back. Most of my round kicks, except maybe to the leg, I pull back, for example. Although I've sparred with some MT guys, I've never trained it, so I'm not going to try to mimic that style of kicking. And as for side/back kick, besides the risk of your leg getting caught, if you just drop it straight down:

1. It creates the habit of pushing with your kick. IMO, in both bag work and sparring, retracting my side/back kicks after contact transfers a greater 'jolting force' into the target.

2. Dropping it straight down can leave one vulnerable to a foot sweep as it's about to touch down.

3. IMO, it leaves the leg hanging and the groin open a split second longer. Sometimes an opponent who is countering can ball-shot you, even unintentionally, if you leave it exposed too long.

Anyway, that's my .02.

[mickey]

Greetings,



In this regard you are really not kicking. You are using your leg to:

1- Check your opponents action much in the way a boxer uses his movements to cut of his opponents lateral movements: sometimes done with a jab.

2- Offer a distraction to your opponent.

In both situations, the withdrawal of the kicking leg can offer a window of opportunity for a counter. The move should be done with a rapid advance to a strike. The faster the better. To honor that, low kicks are favorable.


mickey

[Lucas]

If i want to set up a punch off of a kick sometimes I will follow an actual kick with the same kick but a feint. If the first kick was successful, or just not caught, the second kick of the same type can lure, then, depending on what you're doing, step down/in with the kick to follow with punch/clinch.

[YouKnowWho]

A kick can be more than just a kick.

If you step in, your opponent will sweep your leg. If you kick his leading knee joint, it will be harder for him to sweep you when you land that foot on the ground. To me, the reason that you prefer to use kick as step in is if you can put your opponent in defense mode, it will be safe for you to enter.

[Kellen Bassette]

Since the side kick is very easy to be caught,

Side kick is not easy to catch if you thrust it and retract the leg.

Different kicks require different mechanics, push kick will not work as intended if the leg is immediately retracted, snap kick will not work well if the foot is not retracted.

Snapping kicks need to be retracted because there is always the danger your opponent can just "eat" the kick, grab your leg and take you down. It is much harder and riskier to try to eat more powerful kicks such as thrusting kicks or Thai roundhouse, so with those powerful kicks, retracting the leg is less crucial.

[SavvySavage]

Sometime you may want to use your kick to set up your punch. In order to do so, you will need to move from your kicking range into your punching range. If you pull your kicking leg back, you will still be in your kicking range. Even if you can step in after that, it will take you an extra unnecessary step. If you don't pull your kicking leg back, your leg may be caught by your opponent, and you have to deal with it.

What's your opinion on this?


It depends on what you want to do and what kind of sparring situation you are in. This thread is not more interesting than Bruce Leeroy vs wong jack man

[David Jamieson]

depends on the kick. Some need to have the full drive through to be any good to begin with.

[YouKnowWho]

When you kick at your opponent's groin, your opponent drops his arm to block it. His face is open at that moment. If you pull your leg back, and then step forward, his arm will move back to cover his face already. Since you may have just 1/10 second window, you just don't have the luxury to pull your leg back in that situation.

[David Jamieson]

When you kick at your opponent's groin, your opponent drops his arm to block it. His face is open at that moment. If you pull your leg back, and then step forward, his arm will move back to cover his face already. Since you may have just 1/10 second window, you just don't have the luxury to pull your leg back in that situation.

Kind of a supposition there don't you think? I mean, who knows what defense a guy will pull on move a-z? It doesn't matter if you are relentless in your attack and as long as you realize that in any conflict it might be you that winds up the "victim" ;)

[Kellen Bassette]

When you kick at your opponent's groin, your opponent drops his arm to block it. His face is open at that moment. If you pull your leg back, and then step forward, his arm will move back to cover his face already. Since you may have just 1/10 second window, you just don't have the luxury to pull your leg back in that situation.

There is no reason you need to set your leg back at the original starting point after retracting the kick. If I threw a rear leg kick, opponent blocks and I retract, why can't I land that foot forward and punch? My rear leg is now my lead leg, the face can still be punched, no need to create another step.

[YouKnowWho]

There is no reason you need to set your leg back at the original starting point after retracting the kick. If I threw a rear leg kick, opponent blocks and I retract, why can't I land that foot forward and punch? My rear leg is now my lead leg, the face can still be punched, no need to create another step.

In the longfist system, most of the time, you don't pull your kicking leg back. Here is an example. The interest thing is the Tantui is the most beginner level training form. A longfist guy would train not to pull his kicking leg back in his beginner level training stage. That's quite different from most of the Karate training.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=enRfDppVWvg&feature=youtu.be

You can also see that in the more advance level longfist form.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PUEpCmIgQuA&feature=youtu.be

[Kellen Bassette]

In the longfist system, most of the time, you don't pull your kicking leg back. Here is an example. The interest thing is the Tantui is the most beginner level training form. A longfist guy would train not to pull his kicking leg back in his beginner level training stage. That's quite different from most of the Karate training.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=enRfDppVWvg&feature=youtu.be

You can also see that in the more advance level longfist form.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PUEpCmIgQuA&feature=youtu.be

Yes, in Karate you almost always pull the kick back...

[Subitai]

Hey YouKnowWho...

Don't know if you've discussed this before but I thought you might find this video at least a little interesting...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CHoB1wcToDA


Mostly legs as per the kicking aspect...cool in some ways but it seems like NO Hands to the head and that just bothers me.

"O"

[YouKnowWho]

That was a very interesting sparring rule set. It was very friendly environment as well. Not sure if "foot sweep" is in their training or not.

[-N-]

Yes, in Karate you almost always pull the kick back...

You especially will see that in point sparring. It's all about speed and playing tag when it's light contact. No point in following through with combos when the refs call break on every clash. And if you leave your foot out without making heavy contact, you just get grabbed.

[-N-]

Here are some solid heel kicks to the thigh. With shoes on, even. No pull back.

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b76/Mr_Ugly/stopkicks.gif

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b76/Mr_Ugly/kf2_a_GIFSoup_com.gif

[-N-]

Running footwork with kicks.

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b76/Mr_Ugly/download-4.gif

[mickey]

Greetings,

That was a nice example of what I was talking about.

YKW was talking about the type of kick used to set up the punch. The thread began to wander from that.


mickey

[YouKnowWho]

May be all kicks in the longfist system are used to set up punch or another kick. It's in the

- beginner form Tantui.
- Intermediate form Maifu Quan.
- Advance form Si Lu Ben Da.

Should you step in after kick?

If you use kick to

- set up punch, you will step in.
- kill, you will still step in to make sure that your opponent is truly dead.

[mickey]

Greetings,

YKW,

I usually saw it the other way with the hands setting up the kicks. It depends on the skill level of the fighter.

In TanTui, the hands come first, punctuated by the kick.


mickey

[YouKnowWho]

I usually saw it the other way with the hands setting up the kicks. It depends on the skill level of the fighter.

If my arm can touch my opponent's arm, I'll pull myself into a clinch.

[Jimbo]

You especially will see that in point sparring. It's all about speed and playing tag when it's light contact. No point in following through with combos when the refs call break on every clash. And if you leave your foot out without making heavy contact, you just get grabbed.

I used to see a lot of point fighters who would lift their front leg and hop forward on their other foot, flicking little round kicks. IMO, it defeated the entire purpose of snap kicking, as the kicks would only flick out, retract a few inches, and flick out again. Even if they landed they wouldn't do any damage. Probably not really intending to land, but to set up a back fist. Very different from the way 'Superfoot' Bill Wallace used to do his multiple kicks. Having sparred him in a seminar 30+ years ago, I can attest that, although his kicks were no MT kicks, he could still hurt you with them. He used a very strong snap, as opposed to half-hearted flicks.

[mickey]

Greetings,

YKW,

You are a Shuai Chiao man. I would fully expect that. :)


mickey

[mickey]

Greetings,

YKW,

Do you realize that your strategy is still hands leading legs?


mickey

[Kellen Bassette]

You especially will see that in point sparring. It's all about speed and playing tag when it's light contact. No point in following through with combos when the refs call break on every clash. And if you leave your foot out without making heavy contact, you just get grabbed.

If you connect with a heavy thrust kick, the retraction is not crucial, I like the follow thru when there is connection, retraction may be handy should you miss, however.

I prefer thrusting kicks to snapping kicks, but snap kicks do serve their purpose...of course if your point sparring you won't be using them correctly anyway...

[YouKnowWho]

Do you realize that your strategy is still hands leading legs?

It depends on the distance. If my hand can reach to my opponent's wrist, I won't both to kick. If the distance is far, I would use "knee stomp" or "foot sweep" to move in. To me, kick is to move in.

The following drill is quite interest. If you can look at your opponent's face without looking down when you do that, the moment that you detect your opponent's eyes looks down, the moment that you punch on his face.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yOZwBOf34rs

[-N-]

I prefer thrusting kicks to snapping kicks, but snap kicks do serve their purpose...of course if your point sparring you won't be using them correctly anyway...

Too many bad habits from point sparring. And people carry them over to other sparring without realizing.

[Jimbo]

If you connect with a heavy thrust kick, the retraction is not crucial, I like the follow thru when there is connection, retraction may be handy should you miss, however.

I prefer thrusting kicks to snapping kicks, but snap kicks do serve their purpose...of course if your point sparring you won't be using them correctly anyway...

If you are making full contact, even a snap kick 'thrusts'. The energy and extension going into the person/target must be spent before it can be retracted, if you choose to do so. It cannot be as fast as snap kicking the air or lightweight kicking pads; at least the retraction can't be.

Someone can still easily retract a kick and come forward almost as smoothly. For example, if you use ball-of-foot front kick to the abdomen, your whole body is still moving forward anyway. The retraction won't be 'picture-perfect' if you made contact, but you can still bring it back a bit, then put it forward as you step in, pretty much in one motion. But with a cross kick, for example, you don't retract as you step through.

Hands can set up kicks, and kicks can set up hands.

[TaichiMantis]

If you are making full contact, even a snap kick 'thrusts'. The energy and extension going into the person/target must be spent before it can be retracted, if you choose to do so. It cannot be as fast as snap kicking the air or lightweight kicking pads; at least the retraction can't be.

Someone can still easily retract a kick and come forward almost as smoothly. For example, if you use ball-of-foot front kick to the abdomen, your whole body is still moving forward anyway. The retraction won't be 'picture-perfect' if you made contact, but you can still bring it back a bit, then put it forward as you step in, pretty much in one motion. But with a cross kick, for example, you don't retract as you step through.

Hands can set up kicks, and kicks can set up hands.

What he said ;)

[Spiked]

If you connect with a heavy thrust kick, the retraction is not crucial, I like the follow thru when there is connection, retraction may be handy should you miss, however.

I prefer thrusting kicks to snapping kicks, but snap kicks do serve their purpose...of course if your point sparring you won't be using them correctly anyway...

Do you do the karate push snap kick where you hit with the ball of your foot or do you prefer hitting with the top of the foot?

[Kellen Bassette]

Do you do the karate push snap kick where you hit with the ball of your foot or do you prefer hitting with the top of the foot?

I usually use Thai style teep as my front kick....occasionally I will use Karate/kung fu snapping kick with ball of the foot, for closing distance.

Instep is only good for kicking groin, so I don't use it in sparring....

[Faux Newbie]

I think it is important to do both, depending on the situation. If I always follow in, and my opponents sees this, I will be open to a counterstrike when entering. If my opponent doesn't know which I'll do, and I retract as they respond as though I'm entering, I can respond to his action by attacking where he becomes open.

If I always retract, and my opponent sees that, he can try to move in and arrive just before I'm fully retracted and capitalize on this.