URGENT- First Nations Protests- Human Rights, Land rights, water rights

[MarathonTmatt]

Please look at the link below. Oct. 17, 700 militarized RCMP were sent into New Brunswick to deal w/ peaceful protests against FRACKING- this is a land issue, an environmental issue, everybody should be concerned. The Mik'Maq First Nation members have been peacefully protesting and stalling fracking operations in their territory for months. Prime Minister Harper says the Crown Govt. will do whatever it takes to stop these protests. Over 40 in custody, including the Chief of Elsipogtog- women children and elders being brutalized by militarized RCMP- sniper rifles vs. drums and eagle feathers. URGENT, please watch link below. What affects one, affects ALL.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=XmH4irplxqw

[David Jamieson]

Here's the story from the CBC on what's happening.
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/new-brunswick/n-b-fracking-protests-are-about-nature-manitoba-chief-says-1.2127250

worthy of note from the article:

Two media crews had their vehicles and equipment seized by five protesters in Rexton and went to police to file a complaint. The situation was resolved and the journalists got their gear back.

Protesters told CBC it was time to regroup and refocus after a turbulent week that saw police face off with protesters, vehicles torched, weapons seized and dozens of people arrested.

Peaceful protest doesn't include theft, threats, torching of private property etc, so I'd be careful before positioning all of the folk as peaceful when it's clear there were many there who went to just cause crap.

I agree with the protest, I don't agree with morons running around being vandals and thugs and thinking that is valid protest. It ain't.

[Syn7]

It's not so cut and dry either way. Yes cars were torched, firearms were seized violent threats were made. But none of that happened until it became clear as to what was going to go down. They knew what was coming and they prepared for it. I too sympathize with the cause, but I don't think they did themselves service by handling it that way when throwing out the word "peaceful" every ten seconds. On the other hand, we all know how police can be when they gear up. In the 93 riots, I watched police do some shameful stuff, very shameful stuff. They don't handle groups very well. They just aren't mentally prepared for it as a whole. And one can argue that their history and recent actions in other places was a major factor in the choice to use aggression on the part of the protesters who take this VERY seriously.

[bawang]

the mic macs have passion but no ambition. they will never take their land back.

[mickey]

Greetings,

I think the lady made it absolutely clear that nothing was happening to them in that situation. It was happening EVERY ONE OF US in that moment, all over the world. And it will take the support of the world to put a permanent stop to it.


mickey

[David Jamieson]

Greetings,

I think the lady made it absolutely clear that nothing was happening to them in that situation. It was happening EVERY ONE OF US in that moment, all over the world. And it will take the support of the world to put a permanent stop to it.


mickey

To what? Fracking?

I'm not down with it either. It doesn't seem sound and it does a lot of damage from what I understand.

In Canada, I am more interested in these questions being answered.

1) How many treaties exist
2) how many are valid
3) How many have been honoured
4) How many are left to be honoured?

I don't even think that Number 1 can be answered at this point and that casts a shadow over a lot when you consider it. Now consider this, many of the original peoples in BC refused to sign any treaties and subsequently, these peoples are the most well off for it. Go figure.

[mickey]

Greetings,

It is more that just fracking.

It is about corporate interests versus the environment and the people it supports and who, in turn, support it.


mickey

[pazman]

ow consider this, many of the original peoples in BC refused to sign any treaties and subsequently, these peoples are the most well off for it. Go figure.

Yes, because signing treaties with white people always seems to work out.

There is no reason I should have to sign a treaty with some saggy old bag on the British throne to say that land is mine.

If anything, these protesters are being too peaceful. They should want nothing less than castrating Canadian politicians and mutilating their wives.

[Syn7]

Well, to be fair, BC is a very resource rich province with a relatively low population. And treaties have been signed, broken/honoured/backed out of etc etc. It's an ongoing issue and it has/is causing a divide. There are many questions and very few answers. I grew up pretty tight with the squamish band(a very well off band, one of the wealthiest in Canada) and even amongst themselves there is a divide. This is a tough issue. Unlike down south with Africans and natives, it's still an ongoing issue. And let's not forget that the last residential school in Canada closed in 1986. This is not an easy fix and no matter what, somebody is going to lose, most likely all parties involved.


As far as fighting against corporate interests buying policy, I totally agree. I'm just not sure this is the way to do it. I mean, if you want an armed revolution, that **** can't be half assed and isolated. You hit hard from all angles with a ton of support or you will lose very badly. On the flipside, if you feel the there is a more peaceful solution, all this aggression(on both sides!) is quite counter productive.


This is an old story that humans have been dealing with forever. The powerful **** on the not so powerful. And now with the unbridled capitalist values we have coupled with our new found technological abilities, we are in quite a pickle. As I see it we need to jump on regression or progression because, as it is, we are not in a sustainable situation. We either need to be like Mennonites or we need to really get moving on new technologies that will help solve some of the dilemmas we are in now. Maintaining sustainability with our environment, feeding everyone in non toxic ways, keeping everyone at a basic quality of life that is well above what our least advantaged go through, basic health care for all and equal treatment are just a few. You shouldn't get second rate treatment just because you can't fly to Zurich and buy it. That's bull****.

[David Jamieson]

Yes, because signing treaties with white people always seems to work out.

There is no reason I should have to sign a treaty with some saggy old bag on the British throne to say that land is mine.

If anything, these protesters are being too peaceful. They should want nothing less than castrating Canadian politicians and mutilating their wives.

really?
Treaties are signed with the conquerors regularly. That is the way it goes. North America was taken through war, genocide and deception. All lands are generally "taken" this way, by all people from other people. Unless we are talking in some abstract sense about thousands of years ago which is completely irrelevant to the here and now.

There's a reason you should sign a treaty when someone will wipe you off the face of the earth otherwise. I'm surprised that people don't understand this.

Nice sentiment at the end. So, should you ever make some poor decision, is this what you would expect for yourself? :rolleyes:

@Mickey - The issue is the issue. Fracking has been around for a long time. It's nothing new and has been used to extract oil and gas from shale since the 50s.

I agree with the Native folk. It is risky to the water supply and the courts agreed too. SWN has removed all their vehicles and equipment and the exploration in the area will cease for now.

We have mechanisms in our political system to impede such things. The problem we currently have is a severe lack of transparency and a one man show from the majority conservative party in parliament. Most of them cannot speak unless they are told to or given a script. It's a pathetic situation an I look forward to the change in 2015 when we have a chance to oust this current government.

[MarathonTmatt]

Here's the story from the CBC on what's happening.
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/new-brunswick/n-b-fracking-protests-are-about-nature-manitoba-chief-says-1.2127250

worthy of note from the article:


Peaceful protest doesn't include theft, threats, torching of private property etc, so I'd be careful before positioning all of the folk as peaceful when it's clear there were many there who went to just cause crap.

I agree with the protest, I don't agree with morons running around being vandals and thugs and thinking that is valid protest. It ain't.

I can see what you are saying- but just to give people who may not be following this as closely a better idea- the peaceful protests in Elsipogtog (New Brunswick) have been going on for months, since June I think. A few Miq'Mak women who were traditionally chanting while peacefully blocking the road were arrested back then. It wasn't until a few days ago that "s**t hit the fan" and 700 RCMP troops came to deal w/ the situation. Some RCMP had sniper rifles and were hiding in the bush, w/ their scopes aimed at women, etc. on their cell phones. The RCMP also tried to break up the protest camp- and who is at this camp is Miq'Mak FAMILIES- women, children, elders, and men- and their supporters. So a couple RCMP cars were torched in retaliation for shooting rubber bullets and pepper spray at somebodies children, wives and grandparents- BIG surprise! It is the RCMP who instigated that situation.
In my opinion instead of sending in 700 RCMP in riot gear, and snipers, they should have sent in people from the Harper administration- people from parliament, and people from the board of directors and the CEO from SWN (the fracking corporation.) But the truth is neither the Harper administration or the SWN corporation want to deal with these protests peacefully or on a political level so they send in militarized troops to stir things up and shoot at people. Its like- really? Here they are protesting peacefully and they (the govt) can't come out there to deal with it peacefully? I think most people don't want the fracking, I can see that from this thread alone. But the govt. is going w/ big money corporate interests, not what the people want, big surprise.
Also I think the stolen camera equipment was at a solidarity protest in another area, not the main protest that has been in the process for months where it's all going down, so who knows who was involved with that.

[David Jamieson]

The Harper government has failed nearly every segment of Canadian society in big ways and small. Conservatives and conservative governments have a long standing tradition of being incapable to deal peacefully with the Native folk of Canada. That's for sure.

So, let's ensure that he gets voted out and stays out next time round. I am just ecstatic about the possibility of never having to think about Harper again. He's not MY prime minister, I never supported him, I never voted for him and If we had mechanisms of impeachment, I'd look into how we go about doing that.

It really is Canada's fault that he is in there mucking things up. We are politically apathetic as a whole. encourage every one you can to exercise their right to vote and vote this ******* out of office.

[Samwise85]

Regarding the violence, while none of the articles I looked at mentioned them, it sounds like typical black bloc tactics (black blocs are groups of anarchists and others who dress in black and stick together at protests, engaging in civil disobedience and vandalism). They often show up at progressive protests and get into scraps with police. The media, being interested in getting as many page views and viewers as possible, will then label the entire event violent. Its important to keep in mind that at these large events different people engage in different tactics and the organizers cannot control everyone.

[David Jamieson]

Regarding the violence, while none of the articles I looked at mentioned them, it sounds like typical black bloc tactics (black blocs are groups of anarchists and others who dress in black and stick together at protests, engaging in civil disobedience and vandalism). They often show up at progressive protests and get into scraps with police. The media, being interested in getting as many page views and viewers as possible, will then label the entire event violent. Its important to keep in mind that at these large events different people engage in different tactics and the organizers cannot control everyone.

The real thing to keep in mind is to not just give the nod to the MSM.
They clearly have their own agenda. Even the CBC does this type of shoddy one sided reporting out of context, without the facts etc. They used to be a much better outfit than what they have become of late.

They don't dig deep and they don't ask the hard questions anymore. things like why are there paramilitary police units on domestic soil? That is wrong. So what's up with it?

[MarathonTmatt]

They don't dig deep and they don't ask the hard questions anymore. things like why are there paramilitary police units on domestic soil? That is wrong. So what's up with it?

Those are tough questions, all anyone can give is their take/ opinion. For instance, we may see the currency system of cash disappear and become obsolete in our life-times, I have heard some critics saying that.
It seems all govts. are afraid to give first nations people their rightful land claims. It would mean a power shift, infrastructure & use of land shift, etc. But the issue should not be ignored- native leaders and leaders of parliament, and international leaders should be working this out- which is what the native leaders are trying to engage in, so far, (even in past campaigns) unsucsessfully. And as someone on this thread already said- there are more sustainable solutions.

[MarathonTmatt]

Oh yeah-
And now that I think on it, I read a news article today about Indonesia. Activists and indigenous in-land people in that area are mapping places out w/ GPS. A lot of clear-cutting and land grabbing going on over there for centuries, too. People living in these traditional places get labeled "squatters" overnight when the corporation pays for a land title w/ the govt. So they are using GPS as a way to legally record these ancestral lands before they all disappear- I guess the case being that this will help stop some of the land grabs.
IMO, British and other European colonization reared its ugly head all over the world centuries ago, and the system we are under (in different places) pretty much still has it's roots in this. They were able to almost break and conquer the Americas- Asia was hit hard too, but didn't get hit as bad as the Americas.

[bawang]

people in my region of china were the wu people. 2500 years ago they used to file their teeth, wear loincloth, and tattoo turtle shell pattern on their back. the land was a jungle.

you have to adapt or perish.

you CAN evolve without losing your identity. the Indians think farming and leaving the reserve is a terrible thing and violates their identity. their very identity is tied to hunting animals and shaman dances. that's why they are a shallow people and why they will disappear forever.

[Syn7]

Can anyone name anywhere that is ruled by a class/race that is 100% indigenous to the land they are in? Off the top of my head, I can't. This issue is just more recent. But really, people have been jacking land since the beginning of the communal experience. Right or wrong, it is what it is. While I support First Nations getting their communities to a healthy state and on equal terms, what they could have been is a non issue. It's done. We're global now, and integration is the name of the game. We need to collectively decide what kind of world we want to live in. Segregation is a thing of the past. Some times you fight the good fight for so long, you forget what you were fighting for and it ends in squabbles over land rights and in the end.... monetary gains. Natives may have once been a more free, minimalist type society/societies, but like I said, that's long gone. Time to build TOGETHER. I have many native brothers and sisters. We grew up together, inter married etc etc. I want what's best for everyone. I'm just not sure that piecing them off is the answer anymore. Had we been more fair from the get go, who knows. But that didn't happen and it's not going to happen... EVER. Natives are a fast growing demographic in Canada, IMO we all need to re-think our roles as we move forward. Just my two cents.

[Jimbo]

IMO, British and other European colonization reared its ugly head all over the world centuries ago, and the system we are under (in different places) pretty much still has it's roots in this. They were able to almost break and conquer the Americas- Asia was hit hard too, but didn't get hit as bad as the Americas.

The Ainu of Japan, who are the last remnants of the Jomon people, were given every bit as terrible treatment by the later-arriving Yayoi, as the Native Americans received from the Europeans. Now there are very few "pure" Ainu left, mostly on Hokkaido. Most with Ainu blood have been intermixed into the general population in varying degrees. And discrimination against those with Ainu blood is still very bad in Japan today.

Though it was never brought up, my father's side of the family has very clear Ainu/Jomon physical characteristics, except my paternal grandfather was quite tall for his time (around 6' 1" tall; he lived 80 years and died in 1951). That's almost 4 inches taller than I am. Ainu were generally characterized as shorter as well as shorter-limbed than the majority Yayoi Japanese...neither of which describes our family. But I am proud of the Ainu/Jomon characteristics that I've inherited.

Ironically, many of the popular actors, athletes, and many well-known people in Japan have varying degrees of Ainu or Jomon characteristics, such as Tatsuya Nakadai, Sonny Chiba, Toshiro Mifune, etc. I say it's ironic, because they are/were very visible to the Japanese public, and those characteristics contributed to their unique looks. Yet among many Japanese, Ainu characteristics are often considered something to be ashamed of or kept hidden.

[MarathonTmatt]

people in my region of china were the wu people. 2500 years ago they used to file their teeth, wear loincloth, and tattoo turtle shell pattern on their back. the land was a jungle.

you have to adapt or perish.

you CAN evolve without losing your identity. the Indians think farming and leaving the reserve is a terrible thing and violates their identity.

Thanks for saying that- it's a good point!

[MarathonTmatt]

The Ainu of Japan, who are the last remnants of the Jomon people, were given every bit as terrible treatment by the later-arriving Yayoi, as the Native Americans received from the Europeans. Now there are very few "pure" Ainu left, mostly on Hokkaido. Most with Ainu blood have been intermixed into the general population in varying degrees. And discrimination against those with Ainu blood is still very bad in Japan today.

Though it was never brought up, my father's side of the family has very clear Ainu/Jomon physical characteristics, except my paternal grandfather was quite tall for his time (around 6' 1" tall; he lived 80 years and died in 1951). That's almost 4 inches taller than I am. Ainu were generally characterized as shorter as well as shorter-limbed than the majority Yayoi Japanese...neither of which describes our family. But I am proud of the Ainu/Jomon characteristics that I've inherited.

Ironically, many of the popular actors, athletes, and many well-known people in Japan have varying degrees of Ainu or Jomon characteristics, such as Tatsuya Nakadai, Sonny Chiba, Toshiro Mifune, etc. I say it's ironic, because they are/were very visible to the Japanese public, and those characteristics contributed to their unique looks. Yet among many Japanese, Ainu characteristics are often considered something to be ashamed of or kept hidden.

I have heard the Ainu mentioned before- I was always wondering that about Japanese people- how many might have Ainu blood and such. It sounds a lot like the northeastern United States/ Canada, a lot of mixing up here too is evident with our (First Nations) people.
I am of mixed ancestry myself. And, that is not a bad thing at all- I am proud of my roots and proud of my heritage that has been passed on to me. Yes, the discrimination/misunderstandings has existed and will always exist against minorities which is a bad thing.
That's a good point about actors like Sonny Chiba! Indigenous is beautiful, that's why they have that camera charm!

[MarathonTmatt]

@ Syn7-
I agree we need to be progressive. We need to work together. We can keep our identities and still move forwards. No problem there.
What I would be concerned about is this, for example (getting off the original topic a bit but whatever)-
In Central and North America there are a lot of old ruins- temples, cairns, walls, effigys etc. etc. In Midwestern USA they simply call them "mounds" but they are really earthern pyramids (refrence the Cahokia Mounds). A lot of times these are not protected in any way from development and being destroyed. In some cases these places are even more massive than the highly publicized pyramids in Egypt, to give one an idea. Just as the Chinese had the concept of Feng shui, these places were designed with the same pattern of thinking and sophistication. You may look at a city skyscraper and think that's more impressive- in some ways, yes. But these old sites that are still around have that Feng shui-like element worked in with the landscape that our modern works do not.
And hey, my grandfather was a steel worker, so don't get me wrong- I'm not pointing fingers at anyone (you could say he was a stereotype Native who was not afraid of heights). I feel as much at home in the city as I do the country.
But lets say we are building a new highway- and we discover a cave. Do we blow it (the entrance) up, or do we find a new way to work around it so we can preserve this historical "national treasure."

[bawang]

all u need to do to save ur people is breed. if 1000 women are willing to have 10 children each, and their children willing to have 10 children, you can make 100k natives in 36 years. in 54 years u wll have one million natives.