View Full Version : Jin Young and Wing Chun Blast
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mL9ZUe88Tik
A preview of the Boston guy's latest meeting.
Where's the blast? I just see arm wrestling and actually wrestling, with a couple 'gotcha' shots in there...
Frost
10-22-2013, 11:36 PM
trying to add an artificial platform like chi sao to a functional platform like clinch work........i guess its true some people can try to make square pegs fit into round holes (or to quote paul sharp some people can actually fck up a wet dream)
Where's the blast? I just see arm wrestling and actually wrestling, with a couple 'gotcha' shots in there...
"Wing Chun Blast" is the name of the video blog that the guy interviewing/working with Young posts on youtube.
Jansingsang
10-23-2013, 05:02 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mL9ZUe88Tik
A preview of the Boston guy's latest meeting.
Never ceases to amaze me all the guys this guy has interviewed talk a load a Big talk ..But when it comes down to it all l see is garbage :D They don't even work with the correct Chi sau platforms
And they're the ones that get the most exposure how Sad :(
Paddington
10-23-2013, 05:12 AM
trying to add an artificial platform like chi sao to a functional platform like clinch work........i guess its true some people can try to make square pegs fit into round holes (or to quote paul sharp some people can actually fck up a wet dream)
I've not looked at the video you are referring to but I have some thoughts on what you have said. I am actually writing quite a lengthy piece about this based upon my continuing experiences at a mma gym.
Rather than clutter the thread might you be open, Frost, to an email dialog on this theme? If so PM me to exchange email addresses!
Frost
10-23-2013, 05:27 AM
I've not looked at the video you are referring to but I have some thoughts on what you have said. I am actually writing quite a lengthy piece about this based upon my continuing experiences at a mma gym.
Rather than clutter the thread might you be open, Frost, to an email dialog on this theme? If so PM me to exchange email addresses!
sure pm sent
Rather than clutter the thread might you be open, Frost, to an email dialog on this theme? If so PM me to exchange email addresses!
Sounds like a worthy topic. Why not just start another thread here?
Wayfaring
10-23-2013, 08:02 AM
Where's the blast? I just see arm wrestling and actually wrestling, with a couple 'gotcha' shots in there...
yeah. I don't have any clue WTF those guys are doing in that clip. except the one guy is wearing a bjj shirt from Franjinha's, but he didn't seem to pick up any skills there when visiting....
Cheito Ito
10-24-2013, 02:32 PM
with all due respect. please don;t call that chi-sao. is not.
:confused:
Subitai
10-25-2013, 09:48 PM
Ok after I saw that...I looked up Dannys page and saw all his other vids.
Doesn't matter who he faces....(masters) he always just reaches out and slaps the masters in the face.
It's a little silly, when all they ever talk about is controlling and protecting their center and all Danny ever has to do is reach out and wala.
Izzo... my goodness from all his vids you'd expect more than just walk straight into it. Hasn't he learned, you don't trade with a bigger guy who has longer arms...that's the very nature of TRADE (meaning you get some as well as he)
Jin...Same deal, I mean come on man. He should Never duck his head with a half commitment and zero hand control.
Sifu Phu... The corny "no look" away and all his talk about spiraling...gone out the window under the pressure cooker.
After watching those 3, Danny could gain just as much fight experience slap boxing with a bunch of good athletes at the basketball court.
All these guys seem nice as heck and I want to support them...but I just can't hold that in right now. I need a beer.
"O"
Often Danny gets to plant his hand on their faces because from Fook he doesn't strike with his elbow low - he raises it and his strike/slap/push rides over the other guys' Bong.
Partly his height helps him with this angle... but still, it is interesting how the other guys struggle with this. IMO their Bong Sau is often too high to begin with, as I don't see Bong as a block in this sense.
Ok after I saw that...I looked up Dannys page and saw all his other vids.
Doesn't matter who he faces....(masters) he always just reaches out and slaps the masters in the face.
The particularly embarrassing thing about this is if you see his introductory video, he explains that he hardly has any formal training in wing chun or otherwise, just a few years with a random meet-up club and sparring various styles pretty much on his own. Yet he slaps around these "masters" with 14+ years of experience very easily. And amusingly all these "masters" are equally confident in themselves.
He says sifu Phu has a "lifetime experience" and is "one of the most skilled and knowledgeable sifus in America today". Yet, while the guy talks a very good physics game, he gets handled like a little girl when it comes down to it. The look on his face showed he wasn't enjoying himself and wished the camera wasn't rolling. Probably the first time reality literally slapped him in the face, and that was just friendly chi-sau with an inexperienced fellow, not even fighting.
The sh!t people convince themselves of... :rolleyes:
Danny should be smart and realize he shouldn't be wasting his time with these folks. He could have potential with a good trainer.
The sh!t people convince themselves of... :roll eyes: Danny should be smart and realize he shouldn't be wasting his time with these folks.
Well, I have a sneaking suspicion that Danny knows full well what he's doing - that under the friendliness (which looks genuine), he is more than happy to expose some of these guys as not being able to live up to their talk.
I mean, it is odd that he talks about how highly skilled and good they are, and then proceeds to stick his fingerprints all over their faces... and then afterwards he keeps talking about how good them are. :confused:
Hmm, maybe. It's hard to believe he'd walk away impressed and with the same level of admiration for them.
Well, his first video on his channel 6 months ago was an attempt to bring light to footage of what is in his opinion good, effective wing chun which everyone talks about but never seems to get on film.
He seems to genuinely believe it and want to showcase it. So, you'd expect that to be his goal in traveling around and exchanging with wing chun "masters" (youtube celeb sifus) in the States, but it is actually further illustrating that most wing chun stops at the mouth.
He should pop into Gleason's Gym and have a round with Kevin. :)
Yep, this would be good to see. :)
Wayfaring
10-28-2013, 05:53 AM
Look, the wing chun blast series is nothing new. I've seen a few reality TV shows where basically they have the same format - go learn from a master and roll with them or have them train you to use it in a sparring format.
Overall I would like to see all of that continue. The format is good for the art even if the videos to date don't seem to be. Danny hasn't run into anyone yet who can just tie him up into a pretzel and own him in that chi sau drill, but there are a number of people who can do that out there. I would have thought more, but I guess the delusion is strong in the WCK community.
In this clip, Jin was trying to mix chi sau and grappling. It's a good illustration of what not to do. You can't go from just a straight chi sau bridge to crashing into people and try to tie up with them and take them down. You need to use skill. You need an entry point. Like for instance, say an angle. It would be much better if you just play normal chi sau until you can move your horse or your opponent's horse to where you have a flanking position or angle. THEN do your takedowns from there. If you are just charging ahead trying to get underhooks or clinch that is a very poor strategy from a squared up chi sau position. You are going against their strength.
Frost
10-28-2013, 06:18 AM
Look, the wing chun blast series is nothing new. I've seen a few reality TV shows where basically they have the same format - go learn from a master and roll with them or have them train you to use it in a sparring format.
Overall I would like to see all of that continue. The format is good for the art even if the videos to date don't seem to be. Danny hasn't run into anyone yet who can just tie him up into a pretzel and own him in that chi sau drill, but there are a number of people who can do that out there. I would have thought more, but I guess the delusion is strong in the WCK community.
In this clip, Jin was trying to mix chi sau and grappling. It's a good illustration of what not to do. You can't go from just a straight chi sau bridge to crashing into people and try to tie up with them and take them down. You need to use skill. You need an entry point. Like for instance, say an angle. It would be much better if you just play normal chi sau until you can move your horse or your opponent's horse to where you have a flanking position or angle. THEN do your takedowns from there. If you are just charging ahead trying to get underhooks or clinch that is a very poor strategy from a squared up chi sau position. You are going against their strength.
or you could just realise that pummeling and clinch work is functional and a real time skill as such shouldnt be added to such an abstract and f8cked up platform.................
or you could just realise that pummeling and clinch work is functional and a real time skill as such shouldnt be added to such an abstract and f8cked up platform.................
I agree. Chi-sau is not a natural drill. It's not sparring, but a specific developmental drill. Adding something like grappling, and in such a nonsensical way, is maybe trying to be progressive but really missing the point.
Wayfaring
10-28-2013, 07:46 AM
or you could just realise that pummeling and clinch work is functional and a real time skill as such shouldnt be added to such an abstract and f8cked up platform.................
Why not? What type of hand fighting do you use engaging from the feet in wrestling before you get in close to be able to pummel and do clinch work? Is it better or worse for entry than the poon sau platform chi sau?
Functional is a matter of how you train it.
Frost
10-28-2013, 08:10 AM
Why not? What type of hand fighting do you use engaging from the feet in wrestling before you get in close to be able to pummel and do clinch work? Is it better or worse for entry than the poon sau platform chi sau?
Functional is a matter of how you train it.
Yep its better its called hand fighting, its what you see if every wrestling match where punching is not allowed, why is it better? because its actually seen in a fight, the set up, stance and hand positioning is exactly what you see in a real match
When striking is allowed you, well gasp you either practise striking into the clinch, or you practise covering and clinching when struck or cover and crash the line, and you practise these in MMA because that’s what you see in a real fight> What you don’t do is use some abstract rolling platform to try to set your takedowns up because the stance, hand positioning and timing is all wrong, that’s mixing a functional (ie functions in the real world exactly as in training ) platform with an abstract method which no one on this forum can actually agree the use for
Wayfaring
10-28-2013, 08:43 AM
Yep its better its called hand fighting, its what you see if every wrestling match where punching is not allowed, why is it better? because its actually seen in a fight, the set up, stance and hand positioning is exactly what you see in a real match.
OK. "actually seen in a fight" - I guess you mean a wrestling match here. In my experience, the specifics of hand fighting aren't taught in a lot of detail in wrestling. It's more functional - reaching out and trying to tie up wrist/collar. I see untrained hand fighting in "every" wrestling match, and skilled hand fighting in a lesser subgroup of wrestlers. I think untrained hand fighting can be easily shut down with moderate chi sau skills. I mean just do an experiment and try to pummel to underhooks with hand fighting while someone is trying to keep you from doing that via chi sau.
Or you could just say you "shouldn't" do that I suppose. But to me that's kind of ignorant when you could explore the boundaries of things.
When striking is allowed you, well gasp you either practise striking into the clinch, or you practise covering and clinching when struck or cover and crash the line, and you practise these in MMA because that’s what you see in a real fight>
I do strike into clinches. Not so much cover and clinch as that's more of a desperation move - cover and circle out maybe or cover and return fire. I'm not sure what you mean by cover and crash the line - maybe explain that. What I practice in MMA may be different than what you do.
What you don’t do is use some abstract rolling platform to try to set your takedowns up because the stance, hand positioning and timing is all wrong, that’s mixing a functional (ie functions in the real world exactly as in training ) platform with an abstract method which no one on this forum can actually agree the use for
I don't do any of that. However, in training abstract rolling chi sau platforms in the past and doing WCK now I have developed a little sense of centerline, balance and tools so that it influences how I hand fight. Just simple forward intent on the centerline can wedge through many hand fighting movements.
Frost
10-28-2013, 09:09 AM
OK. "actually seen in a fight" - I guess you mean a wrestling match here. In my experience, the specifics of hand fighting aren't taught in a lot of detail in wrestling. It's more functional - reaching out and trying to tie up wrist/collar. I see untrained hand fighting in "every" wrestling match, and skilled hand fighting in a lesser subgroup of wrestlers. I think untrained hand fighting can be easily shut down with moderate chi sau skills. I mean just do an experiment and try to pummel to underhooks with hand fighting while someone is trying to keep you from doing that via chi sau.
Or you could just say you "shouldn't" do that I suppose. But to me that's kind of ignorant when you could explore the boundaries of things.
I do strike into clinches. Not so much cover and clinch as that's more of a desperation move - cover and circle out maybe or cover and return fire. I'm not sure what you mean by cover and crash the line - maybe explain that. What I practice in MMA may be different than what you do.
I don't do any of that. However, in training abstract rolling chi sau platforms in the past and doing WCK now I have developed a little sense of centerline, balance and tools so that it influences how I hand fight. Just simple forward intent on the centerline can wedge through many hand fighting movements.
Ok let me choose my words more carefully since you seem to want to nit pick over language. I should have said seen in a wrestling match, in a submission wrestling match, or in any grappling engagement where striking is not allowed. And I am really surprised you have never seen hand fighting taught, even here in little old England grip fighting, how to control the wrist, the elbow, the bicep, how to peel the grips is taught and we don’t have freestyle in our schools?? Now admittedly you don’t spend much time learning them, because they are functional, easy to lean and pick up, you spend your time refining them in actual training rather than drilling them separately in the hope of magically making it work once grappling, and that’s sort of the point.
And trained/untrained hand fighting you are still making my point, it (hand fighting, grip fighting) is what happens naturally so why try to create a artificial platform to train out of when you never see it and never use it the way you train it. Why not just train what you actually see in a match (is that better than fight for you?) because…gasp …its what you actually use in reality
You are assuming I haven’t done that, that ive never trained grappling against a tcma or wing chun person or done chi sau into clinch work, I have (I have also doing pushing hands into clinch work)and theres a better quicker way to learn inside control, sensitivity and balance in my opinion, and that’s to actually hand fight and grapple
Nice to see you don’t feel the need train for desperation times, some of us feel the need to because we come up against fairly good strikers in training from time to time and want to get hold of them :)
Cover and crash the line is just that, it’s a term Rodney king and karl tanswell came up with you cover/shield, used footwork and level changes to crash into the opponent, and commence your clinch game.
Its funny how people never do any of that (what we see in chi sau which is bad), they always do it differently or better, but we have to take their word for it as their no clips of this different version around
As for doing MMA differently than you, i dont see how thats possible? I mean its not like wing chun where there seems to be dozens of ways of doing things MMA is MMA, and the way i do it is the same way Paul Daley, Andre Winner, Jimmy Wallhead and et al do it, stand up clinch and ground work with an opponent training to stop me hitting or submitting him.....is that different from how you do it then?
LaRoux
10-28-2013, 10:01 AM
I agree. Chi-sau is not a natural drill. It's not sparring, but a specific developmental drill. Adding something like grappling, and in such a nonsensical way, is maybe trying to be progressive but really missing the point.
The only thing chi sao develops is the the ability to chi sao.
Cheito Ito
10-28-2013, 02:27 PM
chi-sao is chi-sao, not grappling. these guys don;t really know how to stick.
their arms and hands, not train to stick. to busy trying to hit one another.
in a scale of one to ten, one being the worst. they are a TWO.
just my POV.:(
Wayfaring
10-28-2013, 04:06 PM
Ok let me choose my words more carefully since you seem to want to nit pick over language. I should have said seen in a wrestling match, in a submission wrestling match, or in any grappling engagement where striking is not allowed. And I am really surprised you have never seen hand fighting taught, even here in little old England grip fighting, how to control the wrist, the elbow, the bicep, how to peel the grips is taught and we don’t have freestyle in our schools?? Now admittedly you don’t spend much time learning them, because they are functional, easy to lean and pick up, you spend your time refining them in actual training rather than drilling them separately in the hope of magically making it work once grappling, and that’s sort of the point.
And trained/untrained hand fighting you are still making my point, it (hand fighting, grip fighting) is what happens naturally so why try to create a artificial platform to train out of when you never see it and never use it the way you train it. Why not just train what you actually see in a match (is that better than fight for you?) because…gasp …its what you actually use in reality
You are assuming I haven’t done that, that ive never trained grappling against a tcma or wing chun person or done chi sau into clinch work, I have (I have also doing pushing hands into clinch work)and theres a better quicker way to learn inside control, sensitivity and balance in my opinion, and that’s to actually hand fight and grapple
Well my perspective is trying to apply WCK platform principles while actually hand fighting and grappling on a daily basis. I have never seen centerline taught or COG taught in hand fighting in wrestling. Your argument that it occurs naturally doesn't work for me. I see far too much variance in quality between people who have come up just actively hand fighting daily with no instruction. I can use centerline and COG principles to increase the quality of my hand fighting. I don't listen to people who say you "shouldn't" do that.
Nice to see you don’t feel the need train for desperation times, some of us feel the need to because we come up against fairly good strikers in training from time to time and want to get hold of them :)
We train to be well rounded. If you are going to clinch to avoid being beat up, initiate momentum and get in first putting them against a wall or cage or down.
Cover and crash the line is just that, it’s a term Rodney king and karl tanswell came up with you cover/shield, used footwork and level changes to crash into the opponent, and commence your clinch game.
Okay not familiar with it. Level changes and footwork to get in on the opponent is great. Cover/shield as an entry technique is not as good as it indicates a passive state getting beat on to achieve the clinch. You can certainly time a punch and get under it for a takedown though. Maybe just terminology here but I'm emphasizing a point.
Its funny how people never do any of that (what we see in chi sau which is bad), they always do it differently or better, but we have to take their word for it as their no clips of this different version around
Maybe. It's been a while since I've chi sau'd.
As for doing MMA differently than you, i dont see how thats possible? I mean its not like wing chun where there seems to be dozens of ways of doing things MMA is MMA, and the way i do it is the same way Paul Daley, Andre Winner, Jimmy Wallhead and et al do it, stand up clinch and ground work with an opponent training to stop me hitting or submitting him.....is that different from how you do it then?
I see a vast difference in how people train MMA evidenced in local shows and different clubs even in the city I live in. Live rounds will be pretty similar, but how people drill is different. Also the quality of coaching shows up.
The only thing chi sao develops is the the ability to chi sao.
The way most people play with it like a game or sparring replacement, that's probably so.
The full episode:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5PGS61EwnpU
Grumblegeezer
10-29-2013, 01:57 PM
The full episode:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5PGS61EwnpU
Thanks BPWT. Nice to see the previous clip in perspective. Jin's approach to WC/WT/VT is different from mine, but he's a thoughtful guy with an interesting point of view. He also works very hard and is a better athlete than most his age. It's a shame how quickly we dump on the guy on the basis of a short you-tube clip taken out of context.
Vajramusti
10-29-2013, 03:33 PM
The only thing chi sao develops is the the ability to chi sao.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
IMO- not so. Depends on whether people know what they are doing.
Wow, Vaj! You properly used the quote function for the first time since 2004. :D Now just get rid of all those hyphens.
sehing2
11-01-2013, 06:22 PM
Danny seems be a nice guy but has a very limited understanding of chi sao. It is analogous to agreeing to work on a jab defense drill and then I kick you in the groin. Since Danny persists in using this slap on everyone he works with, it would be advisable to begin the chi sao drill at a more extended bridge. The problem is that he is using a drill that requires both to understand the purpose and boundaries of the drill. Danny wants to fight from chi sao, so lengthen the starting bridge. As the bridge is shortened you should be uprooting if you are going to make it a fighting drill (again, which it is not).
Danny seems be a nice guy but has a very limited understanding of chi sao. It is analogous to agreeing to work on a jab defense drill and then I kick you in the groin.
No, I disagree. When Danny is putting his palm in their faces, it is during free Chi Sao. They are exchanging at random. A palm to the face is valid and shows the other guy has left an opening. It isn't analogous to kicking them in the groin at all. It was a valid shot, not a cheap shot. And that isn't fighting from Chi Sao. It is simple rolling and seeking the opening. If the other guy can't deal with the fact that Danny has freakishly long arms, that's there problem, not his!
Buddha_Fist
11-02-2013, 08:46 AM
The problem is this:
Chi-Sao is simply a hand-coordination drill which already starts from an artificial body and hand position that will never be replicated in a fight. Given the artificial nature of the setup, it is possible to do a lot of things that have little value and/or no transfer to sparring ("Chi Sao tricks"). Tying somebody up is one of those; slapping with no knock-out power is another one. You can waste your time writing pages to justify this stuff, but your time will be better invested watching sparring videos and honestly asking yourself whether these slap-fests really add any value. Ask yourself what drills improve the attributes that will matter when you need to knock somebody out (this assumes punching power) quick, and then look at the time your training is dedicating to hone in on those attributes.
So this kind of Octopus Chi-Sao is worthless in my book.
Want to actually see whether somebody's Ving Tsun works? Simply spar and let all that babbling aside.
sehing2
11-02-2013, 09:18 AM
Sparring is good, depending on your definition of sparring.
Frost
11-02-2013, 09:23 AM
Sparring is good, depending on your definition of sparring.
so what's yours.....
sihing
11-02-2013, 10:47 AM
The problem is this:
Chi-Sao is simply a hand-coordination drill which already starts from an artificial body and hand position that will never be replicated in a fight. Given the artificial nature of the setup, it is possible to do a lot of things that have little value and/or no transfer to sparring ("Chi Sao tricks"). Tying somebody up is one of those; slapping with no knock-out power is another one. You can waste your time writing pages to justify this stuff, but your time will be better invested watching sparring videos and honestly asking yourself whether these slap-fests really add any value. Ask yourself what drills improve the attributes that will matter when you need to knock somebody out (this assumes punching power) quick, and then look at the time your training is dedicating to hone in on those attributes.
So this kind of Octopus Chi-Sao is worthless in my book.
Want to actually see whether somebody's Ving Tsun works? Simply spar and let all that babbling aside.
Great post! A good article on Chi sau here.. http://vingtsunserbia.wordpress.com/the-system/chi-sao-pon-sao/ .
Chi sau is development, to bring about a skill set specific to VT, and from there the person uses that skill set in combat, VT=development, You= Application, VT is does not fight, YOU fight. Sparring is a drill as well. From the little that I saw in those Danny vids, he's fighting in his chi sau, no real skill seen...just my opinion:)
James
sehing2
11-02-2013, 07:29 PM
"Want to actually see whether somebody's Ving Tsun works? Simply spar and let all that babbling aside."
While sparring using gloves, moving around, faking, jabbing, etc. does develop attributes it does not replicate or necessarily prepare you for street defense. It prepares you more for sport. Sparring has rules to protect the participants, so it does not really prove the effectiveness of anyone's wing chun.
Buddha_Fist
11-03-2013, 06:58 AM
"Want to actually see whether somebody's Ving Tsun works? Simply spar and let all that babbling aside."
While sparring using gloves, moving around, faking, jabbing, etc. does develop attributes it does not replicate or necessarily prepare you for street defense. It prepares you more for sport. Sparring has rules to protect the participants, so it does not really prove the effectiveness of anyone's wing chun.
Yawn...........
jeetsao
11-03-2013, 05:53 PM
Yawn...........
Yea..........Would rather train than argue. :)
LaRoux
11-03-2013, 06:35 PM
"Want to actually see whether somebody's Ving Tsun works? Simply spar and let all that babbling aside."
While sparring using gloves, moving around, faking, jabbing, etc. does develop attributes it does not replicate or necessarily prepare you for street defense. It prepares you more for sport. Sparring has rules to protect the participants, so it does not really prove the effectiveness of anyone's wing chun.
Sparring is definitely not the be-all/end-all for street prep, but it sure prepares one for the street way better than does chi sao.
LaRoux
11-03-2013, 06:37 PM
Great post! A good article on Chi sau here.. http://vingtsunserbia.wordpress.com/the-system/chi-sao-pon-sao/ .
Chi sau is development, to bring about a skill set specific to VT, and from there the person uses that skill set in combat, VT=development, You= Application, VT is does not fight, YOU fight. Sparring is a drill as well. From the little that I saw in those Danny vids, he's fighting in his chi sau, no real skill seen...just my opinion:)
James
You fight using the skills you learned to fight with.
Chi sao would be great for developing fighting skills if fighting was anything like chi sao, but it's not.
YouKnowWho
11-03-2013, 07:12 PM
Sparring has rules to protect the participants, so it does not really prove the effectiveness of anyone's wing chun.
:confused: :confused: :confused:
If you have landed your fist on your opponent's face 1000 times, the chance that your fist will be able to land on your opponent's face for the 1001 time will be high.
In mathematic, it's called "extrapolation".
sehing2
11-03-2013, 08:52 PM
:confused: :confused: :confused:
If you have landed your fist on your opponent's face 1000 times, the chance that your fist will be able to land on your opponent's face for the 1001 time will be high.
In mathematic, it's called "extrapolation".
It is the circumstances prior to landing the punch that have little connection to the reality of most street encounters.
anerlich
11-07-2013, 09:54 PM
While sparring using gloves, moving around, faking, jabbing, etc. does develop attributes it does not replicate or necessarily prepare you for street defense.
Your answers so far for some reason don't seem to divulge your better methods of preparing for street defense.
You fight using the skills you learned to fight with.
Chi sao would be great for developing fighting skills if fighting was anything like chi sao, but it's not.
But we don't learn chi-sau per se as a skill to fight with. :confused:
It is like hitting a heavy bag to develop the punch- structure, penetration, etc.. But the bag doesn't hit back or follow you. It is nothing like fighting, unless you're picking on a kid, yet you will fight with the punching skill heavy bag training develops. It is one tool and one aspect. No one who trains it thinks it is fighting nor fights a person in just the same way they "fight" a heavy bag.
I assume because chi-sau is a two-person drill where both may be working offensive and defensive skills which resembles a fantasy fight to the unlearned, you have grossly misunderstood its purpose. That's what instructors are for.
But certainly, there are plenty of lousy instructors (watch WCBlast) who seem to have the same misunderstanding and replace the position of sparring with chi-sau and treat it like fighting, but they are missing the point of the developmental drill and indeed the training process entirely.
LaRoux
11-08-2013, 02:13 AM
But we don't learn chi-sau per se as a skill to fight with. :confused:
It is like hitting a heavy bag to develop the punch- structure, penetration, etc.. But the bag doesn't hit back or follow you. It is nothing like fighting, unless you're picking on a kid, yet you will fight with the punching skill heavy bag training develops. It is one tool and one aspect. No one who trains it thinks it is fighting nor fights a person in just the same way they "fight" a heavy bag.
I assume because chi-sau is a two-person drill where both may be working offensive and defensive skills which resembles a fantasy fight to the unlearned, you have grossly misunderstood its purpose. That's what instructors are for.
But certainly, there are plenty of lousy instructors (watch WCBlast) who seem to have the same misunderstanding and replace the position of sparring with chi-sau and treat it like fighting, but they are missing the point of the developmental drill and indeed the training process entirely.
You are the one with the misunderstanding and missing the point of developmental drills.
The heavy bag is a valid developmental drill in that it trains many of the the same attributes that will be used in a fight. The proof of this is that a person who trains on the heavy bag will fight in a way that resembles pretty closely the way he hits the heavy bag.
Chi sao is a totally non-valid developmental technique because it trains very little of the attributes that are used in fighting. The proof of this is that, by far, people who train in chi sao will fight nothing in a way that resembles what they do in chi sao.
Chi sao is a totally non-valid developmental technique because it trains very little of the attributes that are used in fighting.
Perhaps not the attributes you use in fighting, because you aren't a wing chun practitioner. You don't even have a clue how to begin assessing whether or not a practitioner uses something from their chi-sau development, other than to look at the form, which is already an error.
The proof of this is that, by far, people who train in chi sao will fight nothing in a way that resembles what they do in chi sao.
That is because what chi-sau develops is abstract, perhaps unseen to the unlearned ignorantly expecting a wing chun practitioner's fighting to resemble their chi-sau drills.
The unlearned will first make the mistake of thinking we believe it to be fight training, and then make the mistake of thinking a wing chun practitioner's fighting should look like it. But that is not why it is trained. Until you get into it and have proper instruction, you're just left to your imagination and, you are wrong.
sehing2
11-08-2013, 04:24 AM
But we don't learn chi-sau per se as a skill to fight with. :confused:
It is like hitting a heavy bag to develop the punch- structure, penetration, etc.. But the bag doesn't hit back or follow you. It is nothing like fighting, unless you're picking on a kid, yet you will fight with the punching skill heavy bag training develops. It is one tool and one aspect. No one who trains it thinks it is fighting nor fights a person in just the same way they "fight" a heavy bag.
I assume because chi-sau is a two-person drill where both may be working offensive and defensive skills which resembles a fantasy fight to the unlearned, you have grossly misunderstood its purpose. That's what instructors are for.
But certainly, there are plenty of lousy instructors (watch WCBlast) who seem to have the same misunderstanding and replace the position of sparring with chi-sau and treat it like fighting, but they are missing the point of the developmental drill and indeed the training process entirely.
Well said.
Frost
11-08-2013, 04:28 AM
Perhaps not the attributes you use in fighting, because you aren't a wing chun practitioner. You don't even have a clue how to begin assessing whether or not a practitioner uses something from their chi-sau development, other than to look at the form, which is already an error.
That is because what chi-sau develops is abstract, perhaps unseen to the unlearned ignorantly expecting a wing chun practitioner's fighting to resemble their chi-sau drills.
The unlearned will first make the mistake of thinking we believe it to be fight training, and then make the mistake of thinking a wing chun practitioner's fighting should look like it. But that is not why it is trained. Until you get into it and have proper instruction, you're just left to your imagination and, you are wrong.
the problem is no one can actually point to a good fighting clip showing these attributes developed in chi sao in action, every clip of actual wind chun sparring and fighting gets pulled apart as being terrible on this forum
That is not a problem for me as it has no consequence on the efficacy of my personal training. My training is validated by my efforts and experience alone, not whether there is good video footage of someone else to be seen somewhere nor by obtaining the approval of random viewers on the internet.
That is not a problem for me as it has no consequence on the efficacy of my personal training. My training is validated by my efforts and experience alone, not whether there is good video footage of someone else to be seen somewhere nor by obtaining the approval of random viewers on the internet.
Now that, is well said.
LaRoux
11-08-2013, 11:32 AM
That is not a problem for me as it has no consequence on the efficacy of my personal training. My training is validated by my efforts and experience alone, not whether there is good video footage of someone else to be seen somewhere nor by obtaining the approval of random viewers on the internet.
That was pretty much the philosophy of this guy and his students before he got introduced to reality.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gEDaCIDvj6I
Maul Mornie (coolest name, ever), had a good post on Facebook today. I've never seen anyone from his art spar or enter MMA competitions, etc. People always knock the guy saying his stuff only works on compliant partners, etc.
Try telling that to Ray Burns. :) YouTube videos are not always the best yardstick for something's effectiveness; and not everyone showcases their art in a ring ;)
LaRoux
11-08-2013, 01:12 PM
Maul Mornie (coolest name, ever), had a good post on Facebook today. I've never seen anyone from his art spar or enter MMA competitions, etc. People always knock the guy saying his stuff only works on compliant partners, etc.
Try telling that to Ray Burns. :) YouTube videos are not always the best yardstick for something's effectiveness; and not everyone showcases their art in a ring ;)
The early days of MMA/NHB had a few silat practitioners. They got destroyed.
I'm not sure what those pictures have to do with working with compliant partners, other that showing Burns being a compliant partner to that lock. Just reinforces the point that it only works with compliant partners.
sehing2
11-08-2013, 02:03 PM
That was pretty much the philosophy of this guy and his students before he got introduced to reality.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gEDaCIDvj6I
Poor example.
The early days of MMA/NHB had a few silat practitioners. They got destroyed.
I'm not sure what those pictures have to do with working with compliant partners, other that showing Burns being a compliant partner to that lock. Just reinforces the point that it only works with compliant partners.
I posted it as an example of training that some might question, especially in relation to no ring work, no 'evidence' of it working in a competitive setting; yet there are many with that very competitive experience who do train in these 'questionable' methods - because these methods do have worth and relevance.
Chi Sau has a purpose related to fighting, but that purpose is not to make a fight 'look' like a Chi Sau exercise.
Boxers jump rope but they don't take the rope with them into the ring, they take in what it gave them :)
LaRoux
11-08-2013, 02:56 PM
I posted it as an example of training that some might question, especially in relation to no ring work, no 'evidence' of it working in a competitive setting; yet there are many with that very competitive experience who do train in these 'questionable' methods - because these methods do have worth and relevance.
That was one fighter going to one seminar. Doesn't mean he does much training in that method.
LaRoux
11-08-2013, 03:02 PM
Chi Sau has a purpose related to fighting, but that purpose is not to make a fight 'look' like a Chi Sau exercise.
Boxers jump rope but they don't take the rope with them into the ring, they take in what it gave them :)
Jumping rope is a side conditioning device that supplements the major boxing training that resembles the way the real fighting is performed.
There would be no problem with chi sao if it was also just a side conditioning device to the major training that mimicked real fighting. That doesn't seem to be the case though.
Kellen Bassette
11-08-2013, 03:09 PM
There would be no problem with chi sao if it was also just a side conditioning device to the major training that mimicked real fighting. That doesn't seem to be the case though.
Chi Sao should be a side conditioning device to live clinch training. That is its' correct place in the cosmos...IMO... :D
That was one fighter going to one seminar. Doesn't mean he does much training in that method.
My understanding is that a number of MMA guys who train with Ray Burns also train with MM. I've no idea how often they train with him, but their comments show that they see him as the real deal and think his art and training methods are to be taken seriously.
Jumping rope is a side conditioning device that supplements the major boxing training that resembles the way the real fighting is performed.
There would be no problem with chi sao if it was also just a side conditioning device to the major training that mimicked real fighting. That doesn't seem to be the case though.
Well, it is true that I wouldn't call CS a 'side conditioning device', as it is given quite a heavy focus within training, but it is a device.
Wing Tsun is forms, bag work, Chi Sau, Lat Sau, sparring, strength training. Chi Sau is one part of the puzzle.
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