Takedowns and throws in your system?

[lkfmdc]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UDLMEB8EOFU

All of the techniques in this clip I can easily show you where they are in my traditional Chinese martial arts system...

But I know people whose sifu told them their style had no takedowns, this I don't actuallly believe...

So, what takedowns exist in your system?

[sanjuro_ronin]

Every system I have trained in that was dedicated to striking had a mired of throws or trips in the forms or system.
From Goju to kyokushin to hung kuen and so forth.
The issue was that most of the time they were not applied they way they would actually work.

[David Jamieson]

trips and throws.
the style I practice has them.

[lkfmdc]

Every system I have trained in that was dedicated to striking had a mired of throws or trips in the forms or system.
From Goju to kyokushin to hung kuen and so forth.
The issue was that most of the time they were not applied they way they would actually work.

I assume you mean they were not applied by the PRACTICIONERS in a way that they would work...

The correct technique is there, but people have to learn it, and more importantly PRACTICE IT CORRECTLY

[lkfmdc]

I mean silly things like I explain here

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=4819887675589&set=o.240288012495&type=2&theater

[sanjuro_ronin]

I assume you mean they were not applied by the PRACTICIONERS in a way that they would work...

The correct technique is there, but people have to learn it, and more importantly PRACTICE IT CORRECTLY

Correct.
They tend to be negated to the realm of "step sparring" and gradings as opposed to actual sparring sessions.

[bawang]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UDLMEB8EOFU

All of the techniques in this clip I can easily show you where they are in my traditional Chinese martial arts system...

But I know people whose sifu told them their style had no takedowns, this I don't actuallly believe...

So, what takedowns exist in your system?

in hongquan the basic one is where you throw bombs and make your opponent turtle up, then single. its the easiest one because ur opponent doesn't hold on to u. in longfist the double leg is lift straight up then smash. it called bawang lift cauldron. if u intentionally go down wit ur opponent its called bull crush man.

longfist don't like leverage for takedowns because it does no damage. longfist mainly uses double leg to smash the back. this is also why Chinese breakfall is a lot of slapping less rolling

[LaRoux]

I assume you mean they were not applied by the PRACTICIONERS in a way that they would work...

The correct technique is there, but people have to learn it, and more importantly PRACTICE IT CORRECTLY

Thinking that a techniques is "in" a system just because it is "in" a form, is as outdated and backwards thinking as thinking that you can learn to fight simply by doing forms.

A movement in a form that "looks" like something means nothing. There are also moves in forms that look like moves in salsa dancing. Doesn't mean salsa dancing is "in" the system.

[lkfmdc]

Doesn't mean salsa dancing is "in" the system.

I am sure in YOUR SYSTEM there is indeed salsa dancing

[Gru Bianca]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UDLMEB8EOFU

All of the techniques in this clip I can easily show you where they are in my traditional Chinese martial arts system...

But I know people whose sifu told them their style had no takedowns, this I don't actuallly believe...

So, what takedowns exist in your system?

I can well relate with your video, the fist part especially

[GoldenBrain]

Below are the core styles of my martial arts training.

Okinawa Karate - sweeps, arm drags, hip toss, lock throws/takedowns, and slip behind choke takedowns.

Japanese Jiujitsu - all the normal stuff, much the same as Judo.

Aikido doesn't count because it was almost all BS. I moved on...

5 Animal Sil-Lum - all the normal Shuai Jiao and Chin-Na stuff.

Kali Arnis - Dumog which is Filipino wrestling and pinning with it's own unique FMA flavor.

[Spiked]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UDLMEB8EOFU

All of the techniques in this clip I can easily show you where they are in my traditional Chinese martial arts system...

But I know people whose sifu told them their style had no takedowns, this I don't actuallly believe...

So, what takedowns exist in your system?


Tcma does not have these throws. Some forms are not technically supposed to be technique based so you could technically interpret them as you like. The clip below is purely a boxing form. You can clearly see the hand strikes and although you coul technically interpret the overhand rights as hip throws that is a bit far fetched. The stances are not low enough. It's a nice form though.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Y5Z8Gpq-RUY

[bawang]

Tcma does not have these throws. Some forms are not technically supposed to be technique based so you could technically interpret them as you like. The clip below is purely a boxing form. You can clearly see the hand strikes and although you coul technically interpret the overhand rights as hip throws that is a bit far fetched. The stances are not low enough. It's a nice form though.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Y5Z8Gpq-RUY

even Chinese opera has takedowns FOO

[Spiked]

even Chinese opera has takedowns FOO

I'm not sure what this means. All I was trying to say was that you cannot just interpret forms anyway you see fit. The person who invented the form had a specific use for the movement.

[lkfmdc]

Meet the new troll
Same as the old troll
We don't get fooled again
Don't get fooled again

[Spiked]

Meet the new troll
Same as the old troll
We don't get fooled again
Don't get fooled again


Not trolling at all. Those are mma takedowns. The single leg takedown is not to my knowledge a tcma technique. Do you have any video from your lama days of you training those specific takedowns? If not then my point is proven.

[lkfmdc]

Under normal circumstances, I'd suggest that people who don't have any idea what they are talking about just shut their mouths .... but the forum here would come to a grinding halt :cool:

Nothing funnier than people who say "CTS never showed that" only to produce pics of him teaching exactly that stuff

kick catches, ground fighting, sweeps, throws, takedowns

https://www.facebook.com/lionroarsanda/media_set?set=a.2159383444646.81598.1848336234&type=3

[YouKnowWho]

The single leg takedown is not to my knowledge a tcma technique.

The TCMA has more than 20 different ways to apply "single leg". Here are clips to prove it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AdfuDjYcqEc&feature=youtu.be
http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMzA1MjQ1OTAw.html

[lkfmdc]

The TCMA has more than 20 different ways to apply "single leg". Here is one way to do the single leg.

http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMzA1MjQ1OTAw.html

John, it's just another troll... don't waste your time or knowledge on them

[YouKnowWho]

John, it's just another troll... don't waste your time or knowledge on them

When someone said, "Those are mma takedowns. The single leg takedown is not to my knowledge a tcma technique." As a "single leg" lover, I just have to put up clips to prove it.

The "single leg" even exists in Yang Taiji as "repulse monkey".

[lkfmdc]

When someone said, "Those are mma takedowns. The single leg takedown is not to my knowledge a tcma technique." As a "single leg" lover, I just have to put up clips to prove it.

The "single leg" even exists in Yang Taiji as "repulse monkey".

But John, he is actually trying to tell me what's in my system and what my teacher taught, which is classic troll behavior by definition... this is why I leave this place for times, you can't carry on a real conversation because of the trolling

[GoldenBrain]

Not trolling at all. Those are mma takedowns. The single leg takedown is not to my knowledge a tcma technique.

This is amusing. Of course you're trolling, or maybe you're just dull. I know I'm not supposed to feed you but I just can't resist.

First thing, all MMA techniques are present in TCMA. If not then the style is ****. Second, YouKnowWho knows more about Shuai Jiao than most around here so when he tells you that there are more than 20 different ways to apply a single leg, you should listen and learn. Third, Shuai Jiao is just about the oldest TCMA, Mongolian really, but the throws and takedowns are used in any good TCMA style.

[bawang]

http://karatetokuinkan.galeon.com/bubishi05.jpg
http://karatetokuinkan.galeon.com/bubishi12.jpg
http://karatetokuinkan.galeon.com/bubishi18.jpg
http://karatetokuinkan.galeon.com/bubishi21.jpg

this is from karate

LOL

[lkfmdc]

http://karatetokuinkan.galeon.com/bubishi05.jpg
http://karatetokuinkan.galeon.com/bubishi12.jpg
http://karatetokuinkan.galeon.com/bubishi18.jpg
http://karatetokuinkan.galeon.com/bubishi21.jpg

this is from karate

LOL

actually it is from Bubishi which is actually Fukien martial arts that Okinawans learned and brought back

[bawang]

actually it is from Bubishi which is actually Fukien martial arts that Okinawans learned and brought back

the point is
- 1/5 of the bubishi techniques are takedowns, the bible of karate
- southern kung fu is stereotyped for "bridge hands", yet almost none appear in bubishi
- so many takedown variations in supposedly "rigid" and "wooden" southern kung fu, imagine northern kung fu
- without facts we theorize kung fu "should have" "might have" takedowns, with facts we know kung fu "DOES" have take downs

[lkfmdc]

the point is
- 1/5 of the bubishi techniques are takedowns, the bible of karate
- so many takedown variations in supposedly "rigid" and "wooden" southern kung fu, imagine northern kung fu
- we all know kung fu "should have" "might have" takedowns, with facts we know kung fu "DOES" have take downs

Ti Da Shuai Na......

not "Ti and Da, and that's it"

if you don't know Ti Da Shuai Na, you didn't learn kung fu
someone jerked you off and took your cash...

[bawang]

Ti Da Shuai Na......

not "Ti and Da, and that's it"

if you don't know Ti Da Shuai Na, you didn't learn kung fu
someone jerked you off and took your cash...
tightey whitey wont believe facts until u post pretty pictures. and u don't pay cash to get jerked off. u pay cash to have the privilege of jerking them off.

[jimbob]

Dave

Have you ever thought to do a 'forms application' dvd? I know you touch on this a bit in your San Da dvds' but a dedicated volume would be an attractive offering for many people.

[jimbob]

@Spike

I learnt single leg in Singapore's Hong Seng Koon. It was anything but a forward thinking and modern training environment.

[lkfmdc]

It took me about 3 minutes to find this

http://www.shouyuliang.com/images/newsletter/v8n1/holding-leg-throws-2.jpg

this is friggin Tai Chi!

[lkfmdc]

Dave

Have you ever thought to do a 'forms application' dvd? I know you touch on this a bit in your San Da dvds' but a dedicated volume would be an attractive offering for many people.

Did tons of this in the "old days" in the various articles we published

Did a ton in the recent Sinovision interviews

[Spiked]

It took me about 3 minutes to find this

http://www.shouyuliang.com/images/newsletter/v8n1/holding-leg-throws-2.jpg

this is friggin Tai Chi!

Liang shou Yu does swai jiao as well. Swai jian is not the same as other tcma. From what I know swai jiao is throwing based where the drills are specific to each throw. Most other styles is tcma are forms based where you interpret the forms.

[lkfmdc]

http://i.stack.imgur.com/jiFfM.jpg

[Spiked]

The techniques that Mr. Ross showed in that video are all found within the traditional forms of Lama Pai, Bai He Pai and Xiajia. While it may be true that there are differing interpretations of said movements, it is simply in set up, grip, positioning etc. not in usage. The final results are the same across all 3 lines. Traditionally in "Tibetan" MA the "Xing" was somewhat ambiguous and interpretation was based upon the masters understanding and one's own in-depth study. The reasoning was that without the "Key" one would not be able to unlock the "Secret" contained in the form. This is a fundamental practice of Mizong arts and kept the uninitiated from stealing the art. As far as interpreting forms anyway one wants to....Why Not? If you have been trained to understand the movement you should be able to apply it in a variety of ways. Every technique in Lama Pai, Bai He Pai and Xiajia can be applied multiple ways. The Xing can be applied as Qinna, Shuai Jiao and Daji. This can be further broken down in theory as qinna can be applied as Sealing the Breath & Vein, Muscle Tearing & Twisting, Displacing the Bone, Cavity Press. All of this can then be applied forwards, backwards etc. One movement, several applications. No need to be a form collector if you study to fully understand what you are doing. The methods at times can be combined to create a compound application. It all comes back to your level of understanding, depth of study and experimentation in application. This will dictate whether or not the key fits the lock. IMO this is why traditional MA are dying, people collecting more and more before they are ready. They don't dig deep enough into what they have already learned.

I fully understand form interpretation. I just wanted lkmdc to show where in his lama Pai training he trained those takedowns. It should be easy to show specific videos, right?

[IronWeasel]

not to my knowledge




There we go.



(Someone is back in the forum.)

[lkfmdc]

http://bringthereality.files.wordpress.com/2013/05/triple-facepalm-picard-812.jpg

[Spiked]

You guys have plenty of forms videos and demo videos so clearly you had camera capability back then.

Here is one of you doing the tiger fork.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=uwAMvJmBcR0

In this video with fightnerd you stated that you guys focused on the SANDA part of Kung fu training.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=PzxJZ0LfBW4
Where are the videos of this sanda and takedown training? You had camera capability. I just see forms videos.

[bawang]

Where are the videos of this sanda and takedown training? You had camera capability. I just see forms videos.

its up yo mama poosy

[Spiked]

its up yo mama poosy

You a big guy. I think you destroyed your momma's poosey when you came out of it. Your mom could not feel your dad's little thingy

[Dragonzbane76]

I fully understand form interpretation. I just wanted lkmdc to show where in his lama Pai training he trained those takedowns. It should be easy to show specific photos or videos, right?

sounds like you are digging for something to me. Why don't you go ahead and tell him what he knows.....:rolleyes:

[LaRoux]

It took me about 3 minutes to find this

http://www.shouyuliang.com/images/newsletter/v8n1/holding-leg-throws-2.jpg

this is friggin Tai Chi!

So tai chi has crappy single leg takedowns. OK.

[LaRoux]

http://karatetokuinkan.galeon.com/bubishi05.jpg
http://karatetokuinkan.galeon.com/bubishi12.jpg
http://karatetokuinkan.galeon.com/bubishi18.jpg
http://karatetokuinkan.galeon.com/bubishi21.jpg

this is from karate

LOL

Yep, karate has crappy single leg takedowns also.

Again, just because a technique is "listed" in the system, doesn't mean they have it in a functional sense.

That's been proven over and over again form when Kano challenged the traditional Japanese JJ guys and beat the snot out of them to the early style vs. style UFC's.

[Spiked]

If you UNDERSTAND why do you need video? Why would anyone in Lama Pai, Bai He Pai or Xiajia give away their years of hard work to you? He did show video of his Sanda and he has many forms on youtube. Put 2 and 2 together if you really want it that badly, research then ask questions. Maybe then you would get a more favorable response and not be labeled a troll.

Tcma uses the same excuses. "Just because it is not on YouTube does not mean we do not do it"

"All that YouTube proves is that there is crappy kung fu out there"

A self proclaimed San da coach cannot use the same excuses. It's hipocritocal is it not?

[Spiked]

Yep, karate has crappy single leg takedowns also.

Again, just because a technique is "listed" in the system, doesn't mean they have it in a functional sense.

That's been proven over and over again form when Kano challenged the traditional Japanese JJ guys and beat the snot out of them to the early style vs. style UFC's.

I studied karate for years and we never did the single leg takedown. It was all striking based. Maybe I studied the fake karate.

[LaRoux]

Why would anyone in Lama Pai, Bai He Pai or Xiajia give away their years of hard work to you? .

Yeah, because he sure might want to steal all that hard work from someone who had never performed those takedowns against a live opponent in a competitive situation instead of getting and using techniques that have already been proven to work time and time again at the highest levels of world competition.

[LaRoux]

I studied karate for years and we never did the single leg takedown. It was all striking based. Maybe I studied the fake karate.

Yes, you studied the fake stuff. The real stuff is only done secretly where no one else can ever see it because other people might steal it.

[LaRoux]

It may be rare but it's out there, you just don't recognize it. You can't see it, it was never explained to you, blah, blah, blah...whatever the excuse my be. Sounds to me that you want it explained in detail to you, shown to you by people who don't know you, for whatever reasons you may have. These are things your teacher should have helped you to understand and realize. If you don't possess it....well eighter you couldn't grasp it or it was never shown to you. This is not the fault of the individuals on the forum trying to give examples of it. The fault lies with you and your instructor, not anyone here. To chastize them for your shortcomings is stupid. For all any of us know your probally one of those Shaolin Do characters, trying to validate your training. Eigther way Troll behavior on your part, calling out individuals that wrote and gave explainations.

It seems as if it was you who had the bad instructor who didn't explain things to you if you think those are good examples of single leg takedowns.

[lkfmdc]

listening to troll is like...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m_mDTLphIVY

(PS notice how he flat out ignored the link to the CTS stuff)

[LaRoux]

(PS notice how he flat out ignored the link to the CTS stuff)

There were other links to other crappy TMA takedowns. Where were those?

[lkfmdc]

There were other links to other crappy TMA takedowns. Where were those?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m_mDTLphIVY

[bawang]

There were other links to other crappy TMA takedowns. Where were those?

post link of u doing takedown poosy

I studied karate for years and we never did the single leg takedown. It was all striking based. Maybe I studied the fake karate.

u studied sh1t karate. 1/5 of ur karate bible is single leg.

[Spiked]

post link of u doing takedown poosy

No u poosey

[bawang]

No u poosey

I never accused nobody of nothing. I have internet immunity

poosy

IS U

[LaRoux]

u studied sh1t karate. 1/5 of ur karate bible is single leg.

That single legs that are crappy and never done.

I may be poosy but you are stoopid.

[bawang]

That single legs that are crappy and never done.

I may be poosy but you are stoopid.

they look fine to me.

[LaRoux]

You don't have anything of you doing Karate takedowns. That make you poosy.

Poosy + stoopid.

[LaRoux]

they look fine to me.

Of course they do. You stoopid.

[lkfmdc]

I may be poosy

though, more likely, hasn't had it since it had him

[bawang]

You don't have anything of you doing Karate takedowns. That make you poosy.

Poosy + stoopid.

I never accused nobody of nothing. I don't have to prove myself. im not jealous of david ross fabulous success. you cant bring down the mighty FABULOUS david ross.

[Spiked]

I never accused nobody of nothing. I don't have to prove myself. im not jealous of david ross fabulous success. you cant bring down the mighty FABULOUS david ross.

You do not have to be jealous. Your a college kid who trains tai chi. Fighting is not for you

[bawang]

they are the same person and prolly someone who knows david ross irl.

You do not have to be jealous. Your a college kid who trains tai chi. Fighting is not for you

I am a college kid who train tai chi. fighting is not for me.

[LaRoux]

though, more likely, hasn't had it since it had him

If you are the short, fat, bald, pasty-looking guy doing the instruction on those clips, it's pretty obvious you haven't had any that you haven't had to pay for.

[Spiked]

Wow really? I'm not the one who came on here crying that my system didn't have any of those techniques. You and Spiked are. Your both pathetic and transparent. You seem to think that if your arts don't have these techniques then none of them do, and anyone claiming that they have them is not legitimate. You're both piles of steaming troll cack. A couple of dumb a$$es who claim that they know yet can't see it when it is laid before them. The issue wasn't if the examples were good or up to your standards, it was if they existed. When you both were proved wrong of their existance you went right into bashing someone elses technique and method of application. If your so good, let's see examples of YOU doing it. Video tape yourself cowards and put it up, for all of us to see. Elighten us with your vast wisdom and pristine technical skills, show us how all us wannabe's are doing it wrong.

I'll make my prediction now....Neighter one of you will post anything of yourselves, because your just wanking tards looking to pick a fight over the internet. A couple of keyboard warriors who use misdirection and jump to assumptions to keep everyone off topic and away from the real issue........Your utter lack of knowledge!

All I said was that tcma(outside of swai jiao which is a wrestling art) does not have those takedowns.

I do not have to post videos of myself because I am a coach. My students are reflections of what I can do. :)

[Spiked]

they are the same person and prolly someone who knows david ross irl.


I am a college kid who train tai chi. fighting is not for me.

I do not know David Ross. I know of him from following this forum. That is the problem with letting out your real identity online and then being a d!ck. You end up living in a glass house. He was crapping on MooyingMantis recently for no reason.

[bawang]

I do not know David Ross. I know of him from following this forum. That is the problem with letting out your real identity online and then being a d!ck. You end up living in a glass house. He was crapping on MooyingMantis recently for no reason.

he crapped on mooying mantis for defending kung fu fraud paulie zink. mooying also use to defend those iron flower karate guys who sell googled iron palm formulas.

[Spiked]

he crapped on mooying mantis for defending kung fu fraud paulie zink. mooying also use to defend those iron flower karate guys who sell googled iron palm formulas.

Wrong. MooyingMantis made a smart and funny comparison saying something to the affect of David Ross not being as good a fighter(not good at all) as opposed to Zjnk being great at flexibility. And then Ross lost his mind and tried to start a campaign against mooying as he had against others.

[bawang]

Wrong. MooyingMantis made a smart and funny comparison saying something to the affect of David Ross not being as good a fighter(not good at all) as opposed to Zjnk being great at flexibility. And then Ross lost his mind and tried to start a campaign against mooying as he had against others.

RONG

mooying said paulie zink had achieved something resembling gong fu despite being a fraud because he has flexibility of a Vietnamese prostitute.

[LaRoux]

Wow really? I'm not the one who came on here crying that my system didn't have any of those techniques. You and Spiked are. Your both pathetic and transparent. You seem to think that if your arts don't have these techniques then none of them do, and anyone claiming that they have them is not legitimate. You're both piles of steaming troll cack. A couple of dumb a$$es who claim that they know yet can't see it when it is laid before them. The issue wasn't if the examples were good or up to your standards, it was if they existed. When you both were proved wrong of their existance you went right into bashing someone elses technique and method of application. If your so good, let's see examples of YOU doing it. Video tape yourself cowards and put it up, for all of us to see. Elighten us with your vast wisdom and pristine technical skills, show us how all us wannabe's are doing it wrong.

I'll make my prediction now....Neighter one of you will post anything of yourselves, because your just wanking tards looking to pick a fight over the internet. A couple of keyboard warriors who use misdirection and jump to assumptions to keep everyone off topic and away from the real issue........Your utter lack of knowledge!

Good single leg takedowns:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NH16VZm2qRs

[Spiked]

TCMA does have them, because you have no experience with these techniques in this realm does not mean that they don't exsist.

Ross posts videos, he's a coach. Irregardless of what you think of him or his techniques. He posts, he at least puts it out there.



I've seen many trainers that cannot do what they teach. In various fields not just MA. Don't hide behind your students. Man up you're the one making the comments not your "students".:)

Don't take this as me defending anyone here. I don't know any of them. I do know that what they wrote contains truth, that I defend. So before you go bashing, the least you can do is become educated in the topic first.


You missed me making more fun of Ross. That is his excuse for greatness. You no smart. He hides behind his students and cannot do what he teaches.

But I am a coach so that means I do not have to prove anything. :)

[bawang]

You missed me making more fun of Ross. That is his excuse for greatness. You no smart. He hides behind his students and cannot do what he teaches.

But I am a coach so that means I do not have to prove anything. :)

ross's students are his greatness. that's the whole point. he broke the vicious Chinatown kung fu cycle.

[maxattck]

Good single leg takedowns:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NH16VZm2qRs

Thanks for posting the link, I enjoyed it.

[Spiked]

ross's students are his greatness. that's the whole point. he broke the vicious Chinatown kung fu cycle.

My students are my greatness too. LaRoux is practically a god because his students are tearing it up in the street and in mma. Since our students are so good we are Olympians. La Roux rules the skies. I rule the sea. David Ross got turned into the minatour's mom and ate too much. Read up on Greek mythology to know what I am talking about.

[Spiked]

No I didn't miss it, I didn't acknowledge it. So I'll make the assumption that since you can't argue the original topic with any validity that you'll just start bashing people? If you and LaRoux have a hard on for Ross, just PM him, try to keep it off the boards. All you're doing is derailing a fruitful discussion, amongst individuals who want to talk about the topic. If you don't believe in the topic don't join in the discussion. Thanks for your time.

Fair enough.

[bawang]

My students are my greatness too. LaRoux is practically a god because his students are tearing it up in the street and in mma. Since our students are so good we are Olympians. La Roux rules the skies. I rule the sea. David Ross got turned into the minatour's mom and are too much. Read up on Greek mythology to know what I am talking about.

are you that guys from 2011? u still in high school?

[Spiked]

are you that guys from 2011? u still in high school?

Originally Posted by bawang
david ross himself was not remarkable as a martial artist


Please stop derailing the thread. This is serious kung fu business.

[Spiked]

No I didn't miss it, I didn't acknowledge it. So I'll make the assumption that since you can't argue the original topic with any validity that you'll just start bashing people? If you and LaRoux have a hard on for Ross, just PM him, try to keep it off the boards. All you're doing is derailing a fruitful discussion, amongst individuals who want to talk about the topic. If you don't believe in the topic don't join in the discussion. Thanks for your time.

I do not think it is cool that Ross gets a pass when he comes down on people. Do you?

[lkfmdc]

I'll make my prediction now....Neighter one of you will post anything of yourselves, because your just wanking tards looking to pick a fight over the internet. A couple of keyboard warriors who use misdirection and jump to assumptions to keep everyone off topic and away from the real issue........Your utter lack of knowledge!

bingo! empty places making large noises......

[LaRoux]

if you don't know Ti Da Shuai Na, you didn't learn kung fu
someone jerked you off and took your cash...

Seems as if there is a whole boatload of people who have posted on Yelp who think you did the same thing to them.

[sanjuro_ronin]

You guys really do love to test our moderator patience, son't you?

[lkfmdc]

My answer to you (with inevitable trolling by the latest grease monkey) is here

http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=66819

[lkfmdc]

You guys really do love to test our moderator patience, son't you?

I like to think of it as bringing love, joy and attention to an otherwise dull forum :D

[Spiked]

Lama pai has extensive neck grappling. Who would have known that such a great art passed down by a great master actually grappled.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=pe4_eq5w34I

[mickey]

Greetings,

While take downs are nice and do exist in other styles, the way it is presented here are low percentage success moves. The now factor is really missing in the presentation. It is basically one step sparring with shorts. Who leaves their jab out like that? And what fool would stand still to allow for such a move?

If I can speak to what TenTigers presented a few months ago, it wouldn't be right to say nothing about what was presented here.


mickey

[Spiked]

Greetings,

While take downs are nice and do exist in other styles, the way it is presented here are low percentage success moves. The now factor is really missing in the presentation. It is basically one step sparring with shorts. Who leaves their jab out like that? And what fool would stand still to allow for such a move?

If I can speak to what TenTigers presented a few months ago, it wouldn't be right to say nothing about what was presented here.


mickey

David Ross is going to say that his guys pull them off all the time. :)

[Frost]

David Ross is going to say that his guys pull them off all the time. :)

he doesn't have to, slipping the jab or cross and hitting the double, single or high crotch is fairly common in mma, as is using the body lock :)

[Frost]

Greetings,

While take downs are nice and do exist in other styles, the way it is presented here are low percentage success moves. The now factor is really missing in the presentation. It is basically one step sparring with shorts. Who leaves their jab out like that? And what fool would stand still to allow for such a move?

If I can speak to what TenTigers presented a few months ago, it wouldn't be right to say nothing about what was presented here.


mickey

umm context is key, what Ross is showing is a slowed down version of something that happens in every single mma match, what ten tigers showed was something no one has really ever seen pulled off. In mma and sanda slipping the jab is common as is hitting the high crotch, single or double....of course no one punches like that its a demo...the difference is go and look at his sparring clips...or any mma fight and you will see the exact same thing hit over and over

[Spiked]

umm context is key, what Ross is showing is a slowed down version of something that happens in every single mma match, what ten tigers showed was something no one has really ever seen pulled off. In mma and sanda slipping the jab is common as is hitting the high crotch, single or double....of course no one punches like that its a demo...the difference is go and look at his sparring clips...or any mma fight and you will see the exact same thing hit over and over

Not in Ross's one fight. :)

Frost, you just repeated yourself

[Kellen Bassette]

Frost, you just repeated yourself

Good catch, because you don't come off like a broken record or anything... :)

[Spiked]

Good catch, because you don't come off like a broken record or anything... :)

Never and not the exact same post twice. All my posts are unique.

[Frost]

Not in Ross's one fight. :)

Frost, you just repeated yourself

I know you are a bit slow but I was replying to two different posters......and I'll ignore the irony of you pointing that out :)

And Tosses one fight is a hell of a lot more than we have seen from you :)

[Kellen Bassette]

Never and not the exact same post twice. All my posts are unique.

Each a sparkling gem that stands on its' own merit. :)

[mickey]

Greetings Frost,

The practitioner would have serious difficulty pulling off those techniques because if the guys hands are decent, he will be able to fire off a seriies of strikes that will keep the other guy at bay, as in jab-jab-cross, jab-cross-hook, etc. If the guy enters the ring without the proper speed, he deserves whatever comes his way. and I did not say anything about footwork. Are there ways to pull off those techniques? YES!!! But not like that.

mickey

[Spiked]

Each a sparkling gem that stands on its' own merit. :)

Thank you! I will put this in my sig

[Frost]

Greetings Frost,

The practitioner would have serious difficulty pulling off those techniques because if the guys hands are decent, he will be able to fire off a seriies of strikes that will keep the other guy at bay, as in jab-jab-cross, jab-cross-hook, etc. If the guy enters the ring without the proper speed, he deserves whatever comes his way. and I did not say anything about footwork. Are there ways to pull off those techniques? YES!!! But not like that.

mickey

thats why you
a) keep your hands up (just in case he throws other punches and you get your timing wrong)
b) slip the punch and level change under it and (changing angles and making it hard for him to hit you)
c) follow (the jab back in as soon as you slip it)
(All of which ross showed) well apart from following the jab in but anyone with a little bit of sense sees that surely??

honestly i dont know where you are coming from slipping the jab and doing exactly what ross is doing happens all the time in MMA, of course you will get hit if your timings off, but the principles he shows: head movement, level change penertating with the step are bread and butter in MMA

[Spiked]

I know you are a bit slow but I was replying to two different posters......and I'll ignore the irony of you pointing that out :)

And Tosses one fight is a hell of a lot more than we have seen from you :)

Yeah, let me type out the same response to two different people.

[Kellen Bassette]

Thank you! I will put this in my sig

Finally! Someone recognizes my literary genius...I'm going to completely ignore the context and just chalk this up as a win! :D

[Frost]

Yeah, let me type out the same response to two different people.

one response was a bit longer and thought out as i actually dont mind the guy and find him somewhat interesting to talk to, the other one ..well

[Spiked]

I know you are a bit slow but I was replying to two different posters......and I'll ignore the irony of you pointing that out :)

And Tosses one fight is a hell of a lot more than we have seen from you :)


thats why you
a) keep your hands up (just in case he throws other punches and you get your timing wrong)
b) slip the punch and level change under it and (changing angles and making it hard for him to hit you)
c) follow (the jab back in as soon as you slip it)
(All of which ross showed) well apart from following the jab in but anyone with a little bit of sense sees that surely??

honestly i dont know where you are coming from slipping the jab and doing exactly what ross is doing happens all the time in MMA, of course you will get hit if your timings off, but the principles he shows: head movement, level change penertating with the step are bread and butter in MMA

I agree that the techniques are high percentage but just because you teach something does not mean you can actually do it for realz. Agree or disagree, Frost?

[Spiked]

one response was a bit longer and thought out as i actually dont mind the guy and find him somewhat interesting to talk to, the other one ..well

You do not even know me. I have only been posting for a couple of days. Do not judge a book by its cover.

[David Jamieson]

Be nice if the conversation was 80% productive and only 20% sh1t throwing instead of the other way round.

Fwiw, nobody gets a pass.
Watch and see. :mad:

[Frost]

I agree that the techniques are high percentage but just because you teach something does not mean you can actually do it for realz. Agree or disagree, Frost?

frankie i dont care if he can or cant do it, he is teaching high percentage techniques and his guys use them in comps and thats what i was talking about, what he can do is neither here nor there

[Spiked]

frankie i dont care if he can or cant do it, he is teaching high percentage techniques and his guys use them in comps and thats what i was talking about, what he can do is neither here nor there

I was speaking generally.

[Frost]

I was speaking generally.

no you weren't but even if you were the same point still applies: and real is all relative; I can coach football to kids I can teach them now to head a ball, tackle how to run an off side trap, can I do that against my brother who had pro trials, no but still doesn't impact on my ability to coach if you are a coach and teaching something by definition makes you one, then whilst it doesnt mean you can use those skills to the same level as the people you coach, that is neither here nor there; what you personally can do doesn't matter as much as whether you can teach those skills to others

[Spiked]

I do not like this video and here is why. This is a ba gua guy showing the application for a move in ine of their forms. He says, "In going to use the fireman's carry to demonstrate this technique."

The fireman's carry is already its own technique. He basically stole it to validate the move in his form which bugs me.


http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=at0hio8PHYA

[Spiked]

no you weren't but even if you were the same point still applies if you are a coach and teaching something by definition makes you one, then what you personally can do doesn't matter as much as whether you can teach those skills to orhers

Frost, I did not know you were an over the Internet psychic. You would be the first person ever who can read minds across continents. Why are you wasting your time here when you could be making so much money working for the government?

[Spiked]

I kid i kid. Relax.

[Spiked]

I do not like this video and here is why. This is a ba gua guy showing the application for a move in ine of their forms. He says, "In going to use the fireman's carry to demonstrate this technique."

The fireman's carry is already its own technique. He basically stole it to validate the move in his form which bugs me.


http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=at0hio8PHYA


On the same vein as this post I pose this question.

Would modern day kung fu have grappling "in their forms" if t were not for mma?

Youknowwho,

I know what you are going to say but swai jiao does not count because it is its own art and let us be honest here and say that most people do not know about it. Since mma has popped up I noticed MANY more "Kung fu Grappling" books. Years ago not so much.

[mickey]

Hi Frost,

The jab that is being thrown is not even aimed at lkfmdc's head. It is aimed to the side. A straight on target jab would require a different type of movement reaction. And I am not even talking about speed.

I am not even trying to "get into it" with you nor the original poster. I am just commenting on what was shown.


EDIT: Never mind.

mickey

[Frost]

I do not like this video and here is why. This is a ba gua guy showing the application for a move in ine of their forms. He says, "In going to use the fireman's carry to demonstrate this technique."

The fireman's carry is already its own technique. He basically stole it to validate the move in his form which bugs me.


http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=at0hio8PHYA

the problem is lama,hop gar lions roar has many teachers not just Ross and several of them all claim it has these throws, a number of them all post on this forum are they all making it up? They claim it has tibetan lineage and mongolian wrestling influences. Ross was teaching sanda before mma started so where did the throws they used their come from??

[Spiked]

the problem is lama,hop gar lions roar has many teachers not just Ross and several of them all claim it has these throws, a number of them all post on this forum are they all making it up? They claim it has tibetan lineage and mongolian wrestling influences. Ross was teaching sanda before mma started so where did the throws they used their come from??

Not making it up. But these teachers are embellishing what their BOXING systems have in their technique repetiors

[Spiked]

Not making it up. But these teachers are embellishing what their BOXING systems have in their technique repetiors



Ross himself has stated that he went to seminars with Randy Catoure and who knows who else. With no video proof of what they trained back in the old fays(besides forms) it can only be assumed he added grappling in after he had learned lama.

[pazman]

I do not like this video and here is why. This is a ba gua guy showing the application for a move in ine of their forms. He says, "In going to use the fireman's carry to demonstrate this technique."

The fireman's carry is already its own technique. He basically stole it to validate the move in his form which bugs me.


http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=at0hio8PHYA


Sweet Jesus, never thought I would defend Jake Mace. And I'm certainly not a fan of bagua.

How can you "steal" a move which is neither unique nor innovative? Did wrestling steal the move from Judo?

[Spiked]

On the same vein as this post I pose this question.

Would modern day kung fu have grappling "in their forms" if t were not for mma?

Youknowwho,

I know what you are going to say but swai jiao does not count because it is its own art and let us be honest here and say that most people do not know about it. Since mma has popped up I noticed MANY more "Kung fu Grappling" books. Years ago not so much.

Frost, would you stop bringing up your boyfriend Dave Ross? Seriously. I am trying to start a new conversation. Stick with it. If Ross rears his ugly head again and starts then so be it but let us move on for now.

[mickey]

Spiked,

You made me watch the Monkey Beak Master. I will never forgive you that.

I see where you are coming from with that clip. He could have said that the application is the same as the fireman's carry. Would that have made a difference to you?

mickey

[Spiked]

Sweet Jesus, never thought I would defend Jake Mace. And I'm certainly not a fan of bagua.

How can you "steal" a move which is neither unique nor innovative? Did wrestling steal the move from Judo?

And yet here you are defending Jake Mace. Ba gua is a principle based martial meaning the form moves can be interpreted in more than one way when it comes to techniques. Did the founders mean that move to be a fireman's carry?


For the record I do not know anything about Jake. It was the first video that popped up.

[Spiked]

Spiked,

You made me watch the Monkey Beak Master. I will never forgive you that.

I see where you are coming from with that clip. He could have said that the application is the same as the fireman's carry. Would that have made a difference to you?

mickey

Nope. The fact is he needed a sport art to compliment his tcma. That was my point. Back then he might have shown it as an eye poke.

Actually, I just reread your post. It might have made a difference if he worded it the way you said. Good call. But my point still stands. Did the founders want that to be a takedown or any eye poke?

[pazman]

Nope. The fact is he needed a sport art to compliment his tcma. That was my point. Back then he might have shown it as an eye poke.

Actually, I just reread your post. It might have made a difference if he worded it the way you said. Good call. But my point still stands. Did the founders want that to be a takedown or any eye poke?

Depending on the lineage, from what I understand, bagua mostly comes from luohanquan, I've never learned an eye poke in luohanquan. Some lineages of bagua have a significant influence by shuai jiao, but that doesn't lead to an answer that'll make you happy.

[Spiked]

Depending on the lineage, from what I understand, bagua mostly comes from luohanquan, I've never learned an eye poke in luohanquan. Some lineages of bagua have a significant influence by shuai jiao, but that doesn't lead to an answer that'll make you happy.

I hVe read that the Cheng lineage came from a famous swai jiao master but if you YouTube Cheng style ba gua you will find forms and not sj. If you YouTube sj you will find sj.

I could be wrong. Maybe they were all super grapplers back then. I once heard a wing chun guy talk about how one of the moves in his form was actually a standing guillotine. Are you going to defend that one too??

[lkfmdc]

As predicted, "spiked" continues to be a tool and more and more forum members discover him to be a retard....

That aside, well, this WAS posted before...

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=4819887675589&set=o.240288012495&type=2&theater

YOu might notice all the Lama, Hop Ga and White Crane guys (since it is a Si Ji Hao discussion forum) all relate that they have exactly the same movement and wre shown the same application

But you kids go back to what you were doing.....

[Spiked]

As predicted, "spiked" continues to be a tool and more and more forum members discover him to be a retard....

That aside, well, this WAS posted before...

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=4819887675589&set=o.240288012495&type=2&theater

YOu might notice all the Lama, Hop Ga and White Crane guys (since it is a Si Ji Hao discussion forum) all relate that they have exactly the same movement and wre shown the same application

But you kids go back to what you were doing.....

Dave, Where is the video of you lama guys actually grappling? The old man said, "this could be a hip throw" so that means you guys could actually do hip throws and not just pretend? The video of the lamas I posted grappled better than you.

[lkfmdc]

I could be wrong.



how about for a week the entire forum uses this as their sig.....

[Spiked]

how about for a week the entire forum uses this as their sig.....

You cannot fight your own battles. This is so funny. Guys, David needs help. He cannot even wipe himself without making a mess. Lol

[lkfmdc]

The old man said, "this could be a hip throw" so that means you guys could actually do hip throws


I know you just love putting your foot up your butt... but sure does look like CTS working throws and break falls with us

[Spiked]

how about for a week the entire forum uses this as their sig.....

I would love to use the footage of you getting knocked out in my signature. Did you include that video in your "how to not do san da" promo?

[Spiked]

I know you just love putting your foot up your butt... but sure does look like CTS working throws and break falls with us

David, pay attention. I will type slow. You have posted those before. Photos can be posed for once and then everyone goes out for pork buns. I asked for a video.

[lkfmdc]

Well well well.....

notice he just ran face first into a brick wall and yet he can't find even a good come back :rolleyes:

Well, at least Gene gets another $1 for the nacho cheese fund

[Spiked]

You do not have a vid, David. Just say so. You took plenty of lama form videos thiugh(had to save those gems).

[Spiked]

Well well well.....

notice he just ran face first into a brick wall and yet he can't find even a good come back :rolleyes:

Well, at least Gene gets another $1 for the nacho cheese fund

I guess someone posts a still photo of himself doing a standing gillutine that means he was a world class grappler?

[Spiked]

If I post a pic of you eating a hotdog does that mean you are a hot dog one or that you were training for a hot dog eating contest? Your phot shows nothing. You cannot tell if proper body mechanics were used or if anything was done right or if it was just done as a publicity stunt to draw in students.

"Look at these photos. We grapple"

[lkfmdc]

Well, it was fun for a while watching him desperately try to come up with material, but clearly his brain wasn't up to the task....

When a baby cries, you go over and see what is wrong....

When a spoiled brat just wants attention, the best thing is to IGNORE THEM... and it really is the best revenge :D

[mickey]

Greetings,

Spiked,

I understand your point. One thing that was made clear to me about form practice was that we were not there when to form was being created. Even though one technique was taught it was never shared that said technique was all there ever was.. One goes to study striking, grappling, throwing and incapacitations of varying degrees. It is a wonderful odyssey. Before I even heard of approaching my practice with those aspects, I was already researching them.

Yes, the application can be a eye poke strike. it can be a throat strike as well. And there are other take downs as well.

mickey

[Spiked]

Well, it was fun for a while watching him desperately try to come up with material, but clearly his brain wasn't up to the task....

When a baby cries, you go over and see what is wrong....

When a spoiled brat just wants attention, the best thing is to IGNORE THEM... and it really is the best revenge :D

Thank god. I finally won.

[bawang]

Thank god. I finally won.

you win 1 ticket to yo mama poosy

[lkfmdc]

He'll cry and complain and try to get other people's attention , then he'll disappear for a few years again....

It's some sort of idiot release program....

[bawang]

He'll cry and complain and try to get other people's attention , then he'll disappear for a few years again....

It's some sort of idiot release program....

this guy usually trolled in summer when high school is over. I guess hes in college now.

[Spiked]

He'll cry and complain and try to get other people's attention , then he'll disappear for a few years again....

It's some sort of idiot release program....

You put me on ignore and continue talking sh!t. What a coward.

[Spiked]

Hey Spiked,

This is a very valid question. I can't speak for the other branches of Lama, Xiajia or Bai He Pai, just my own.

When I learned it there was a heavy emphasis on throwing, dragging and rolling along with the striking. What was severely lacking was the ground game, at least in a practical and realistic sense. We had a ton of qinna, just mostly applied standing and from impractical set ups or entry. Striking was a big part of our school but generally used to facilitate a throw then finishing hold or chain punching. It's an art heavily influenced by Mongolian and Manchurian methods of combat.

MMA has been a wonderful thing for TCMA instructors that are progressive thinking. It has allowed us to re-examine what is lacking and try to find answers within the system. This requires embellishment at times. Once I started rolling with judo and jujutsu guys and learned how they transitioned and positioned I leaned then how to use all that qinna I was taught. If not for MMA, I'd still be disillusioned about a lot of things as I'm sure would be many other TCMAers.

The problem is that many couldn't/wouldn't acknowledge the shortcomings and lack of in-depth knowledge of their art and became detractors. Many more tried to capitalize on the main stream market by saying "Look we have that too!" or advertized "Anti-Grappling", which is akin to saying "Anti-Tying", the art of never having to do it in the first place. Few have really stepped back and reassessed everything and made the attempt to keep their art relative, kudos to the ones that have. That is evolution.


I like I like I loke

[wiz cool c]

Thinking that a techniques is "in" a system just because it is "in" a form, is as outdated and backwards thinking as thinking that you can learn to fight simply by doing forms.


i have to agree with this one,before back in the states i was doing bagua and judo training. bagua which is know for having a lot of throws and judo as we all know is primarily a throwing art. while at the bagua school we did spar regularly ,other then throwing a training maybe a half a dozen times while sparring ,i don't remember us ever actually throwing each other in practice. the throw was explained to us maybe once or twice, but we never even once paired up and threw each other.


I have been in china about 7 years now. half in beijing half in shenzhen i have studied,bagua,hong chuan,shaolin and zhong guo shuai jiao. all the style have throws in their forms,specially bagua,but the only style where we actually on the mats throwing each other you guessed shuai jiao.

[Kellen Bassette]

Congratulations for losing your forum virginity!:D

I'm still waiting......:(

Nah he was just a tease...left me high and dry...promises, promises.....:o

[Kellen Bassette]

If I post a pic of you eating a hotdog does that mean you are a hot dog one or that you were training for a hot dog eating contest? Your phot shows nothing. You cannot tell if proper body mechanics were used or if anything was done right or if it was just done as a publicity stunt to draw in students.

"Look at these photos. We grapple"

Spiked, I grapple all the time, but I have never made a video of it. Because someone didn't make a video 20 years ago, does that mean it never happened???

To answer your statements about grappling...it was a very big part of TCMA. It's mentioned in many old texts, some arts used more of it than others, but in the majority of Kung Fu, grappling has historically been a big part. You know chinna and shuai...it's always coming up...

Judo and Jiu Jitsu are derived of Chinese arts, in case you weren't aware.

Your not the only person to argue that Kung Fu started adding grappling in as an answer to MMA. That's probably true for a lot of schools too. But if they weren't grappling they were probably never training "traditionally" regardless of what they claim.

I think a LOT of application was lost from a LOT of schools, (possibly even systems,) over the years, as live partner training was increasingly replaced with form, demo and ritual. That doesn't mean it wasn't there. There is plenty of evidence that it was; and plenty of folks that never quit training it.

[bawang]

sdfgdfdhghgfh

I wasn't exaggerating FOO. the guy pmed me in 2011 and told me he was in high school. ur getting ur nose pulled by some bored kid with assburgers

[Spiked]

I wasn't exaggerating FOO. the guy pmed me in 2011 and told me he was in high school. ur getting ur nose pulled by some bored kid with assburgers

That was not me, bawang. LOL . I graduated from high school when you were still in your father's dik

[Spiked]

Spiked, I grapple all the time, but I have never made a video of it. Because someone didn't make a video 20 years ago, does that mean it never happened???

To answer your statements about grappling...it was a very big part of TCMA. It's mentioned in many old texts, some arts used more of it than others, but in the majority of Kung Fu, grappling has historically been a big part. You know chinna and shuai...it's always coming up...

Judo and Jiu Jitsu are derived of Chinese arts, in case you weren't aware.

Your not the only person to argue that Kung Fu started adding grappling in as an answer to MMA. That's probably true for a lot of schools too. But if they weren't grappling they were probably never training "traditionally" regardless of what they claim.

I think a LOT of application was lost from a LOT of schools, (possibly even systems,) over the years, as live partner training was increasingly replaced with form, demo and ritual. That doesn't mean it wasn't there. There is plenty of evidence that it was; and plenty of folks that never quit training it.

Ross put up a video and said he could easily point to where in his lama system those throws are found. Then he shows a still photo to "prove" they wrestled back then. Sorry but that is complete bs. He is reverse engineering his history to make it look like he did not just do forms all day.

[Kellen Bassette]

Ross put up a video and said he could easily point to where in his lama system those throws are found. Then he shows a still photo to "prove" they wrestled back then. Sorry but that is complete bs. He is reverse engineering his history to make it look like he did not just do forms all day.

My understanding is Ross changed direction because he thought some aspects of TCMA training weren't practical...if he felt Lama was the "end all, be all" best way to train, why would he have changed course?

I learned many Judo style throws when I trained in Karate, we also drilled them occasionally, but never to the point where I could use them live. To be able to pull off those throws and takedowns I had to alter the way I trained them. I would be lying if I said I never learned that stuff back in Karate, but I also felt I needed more to be able to employ them. What exactly is wrong with that attitude?

[LaRoux]

My understanding is Ross changed direction because he thought some aspects of TCMA training weren't practical...if he felt Lama was the "end all, be all" best way to train, why would he have changed course?

I learned many Judo style throws when I trained in Karate, we also drilled them occasionally, but never to the point where I could use them live. To be able to pull off those throws and takedowns I had to alter the way I trained them. I would be lying if I said I never learned that stuff back in Karate, but I also felt I needed more to be able to employ them. What exactly is wrong with that attitude?

Apparently he hasn't learned too much.

One thing he hasn't learned in his transition into modern training methods is that if you have to "find" a technique in a form, for all intents and purposes, it isn't there in the first place.

The only things that are "there" are things that are practiced in a realistic manner with an actual resisting opponent or some other kind of actual application.

[Kellen Bassette]

One thing he hasn't learned in his transition into modern training methods is that if you have to "find" a technique in a form, for all intents and purposes, it isn't there in the first place.

There are some varying opinions on the purpose of the form, but I think we all pretty much agree that training forms isn't how you play your technique live; and is no substitute for partner drilling.



The only things that are "there" are things that are practiced in a realistic manner with an actual resisting opponent or some other kind of actual application.

Isn't that what he pushes? Does it really matter where the technique came from, so long as you train it practically? He says a lot of the same stuff you always post in the WC forum...I don't really understand where the schism is?

[LaRoux]

There are some varying opinions on the purpose of the form, but I think we all pretty much agree that training forms isn't how you play your technique live; and is no substitute for partner drilling.



Isn't that what he pushes? Does it really matter where the technique came from, so long as you train it practically? He says a lot of the same stuff you always post in the WC forum...I don't really understand where the schism is?

The disconnect comes when he says he finds those techniques in the forms. "Finding" them in the forms means absolutely nothing.

[GoldenBrain]

Hiding applications within a form or dance is a tradition in martial arts that goes back hundreds of years. There have been many periods throughout human history where people were killed for practicing martial arts so the applications were hidden in order to pass them along to younger generations. Forms were practiced in the open, and the applications shown in private. Hence the term closed door practice.

Also many movements in forms are simply to train the body to move a certain way. This is done over and over to create muscle memory. After a period of time the applications are taught.

In modern times we have the luxury of training brutal applications right out in the open without fear of being locked up or killed so there isn't much need for forms. That's cool, but it's also cool if somebody wants to practice forms.

Personally I think if people want to learn to fight realistically then they actually need to fight or at least spar really hard and train their applications in a realistic manner. I do this, and I like doing forms. I have no problem picking out applications within my forms. There are hundreds of applications in the forms I practice. I also practice a lot of applications that aren't in the forms I know, but I have a mixed bag of styles which is also okay. I look at forms as the library where I pick out books to read. Applications being the books.

There are also so called hidden applications in forms. This is simply a place in the form where you substitute something like a kick where there was a punch or a throwing motion or whatever.

I have trouble understanding why a person who dislikes forms or even practicing in an "unrealistic" manner tries so hard to convince others who like to practice forms to quit doing what they like. It's no big deal if you like MMA, but it really shouldn't be a big deal if somebody likes forms or TCMA or whatever they like. Each to their own!

One thing most people on these forums do not need is a champion. And, one that continuously tries to convince them to do something they don't want to do is even less desirable.

[LaRoux]

Hiding applications within a form or dance is a tradition in martial arts that goes back hundreds of years. There have been many periods throughout human history where people were killed for practicing martial arts so the applications were hidden in order to pass them along to younger generations. Forms were practiced in the open, and the applications shown in private. Hence the term closed door practice.

Also many movements in forms are simply to train the body to move a certain way. This is done over and over to create muscle memory. After a period of time the applications are taught.

In modern times we have the luxury of training brutal applications right out in the open without fear of being locked up or killed so there isn't much need for forms. That's cool, but it's also cool if somebody wants to practice forms.

Personally I think if people want to learn to fight realistically then they actually need to fight or at least spar really hard and train their applications in a realistic manner. I do this, and I like doing forms. I have no problem picking out applications within my forms. There are hundreds of applications in the forms I practice. I also practice a lot of applications that aren't in the forms I know, but I have a mixed bag of styles which is also okay. I look at forms as the library where I pick out books to read. Applications being the books.

There are also so called hidden applications in forms. This is simply a place in the form where you substitute something like a kick where there was a punch or a throwing motion or whatever.

I have trouble understanding why a person who dislikes forms or even practicing in an "unrealistic" manner tries so hard to convince others who like to practice forms to quit doing what they like. It's no big deal if you like MMA, but it really shouldn't be a big deal if somebody likes forms or TCMA or whatever they like. Each to their own!

One thing most people on these forums do not need is a champion. And, one that continuously tries to convince them to do something they don't want to do is even less desirable.

Nothing wrong with liking forms. Thinking you can somehow "pull" applications out of forms is a fools game and one of the reasons the "forms trainers" have been getting their butts handed to them by the people who have trained in the the more effective application based systems for more than 150 years.

[Spiked]

Hiding applications within a form or dance is a tradition in martial arts that goes back hundreds of years. There have been many periods throughout human history where people were killed for practicing martial arts so the applications were hidden in order to pass them along to younger generations. Forms were practiced in the open, and the applications shown in private. Hence the term closed door practice.

Also many movements in forms are simply to train the body to move a certain way. This is done over and over to create muscle memory. After a period of time the applications are taught.

In modern times we have the luxury of training brutal applications right out in the open without fear of being locked up or killed so there isn't much need for forms. That's cool, but it's also cool if somebody wants to practice forms.

Personally I think if people want to learn to fight realistically then they actually need to fight or at least spar really hard and train their applications in a realistic manner. I do this, and I like doing forms. I have no problem picking out applications within my forms. There are hundreds of applications in the forms I practice. I also practice a lot of applications that aren't in the forms I know, but I have a mixed bag of styles which is also okay. I look at forms as the library where I pick out books to read. Applications being the books.

There are also so called hidden applications in forms. This is simply a place in the form where you substitute something like a kick where there was a punch or a throwing motion or whatever.

I have trouble understanding why a person who dislikes forms or even practicing in an "unrealistic" manner tries so hard to convince others who like to practice forms to quit doing what they like. It's no big deal if you like MMA, but it really shouldn't be a big deal if somebody likes forms or TCMA or whatever they like. Each to their own!

One thing most people on these forums do not need is a champion. And, one that continuously tries to convince them to do something they don't want to do is even less desirable.

Maybe you do not understand what is happening here. Ross routinely craps on tcma and most notably for the unrealistic reliance on forms. Most sensible people on this forum know that practicing forms does not produce fighters. Ross ranted and raved about this for a long time. Then he goes and says he can point to in his forms where those throws he demoed came from which is hypocritical. Then he goes on to say that he did interviews with a television station showing them techniques that have come out of forms. You cannot have your cake and eat it too. Make fun of a guy for practicing forms when training for a fight? Fine. Claim you trained "hard core" with an old chinese guy and brag every opportunity you get about your trained fighters...and then talk about techniques in forms? Stupidity.

[omarthefish]

Spiked, I grapple all the time, but I have never made a video of it. Because someone didn't make a video 20 years ago, does that mean it never happened???

Spanky is apparently too young to remember that there were no camera phones back in the 90's.

http://www.sciencemuseum.org.uk/images/object_images/535x535/10319047.jpg

[Spiked]

Spanky is apparently too young to remember that there were no camera phones back in the 90's.

http://www.sciencemuseum.org.uk/images/object_images/535x535/10319047.jpg

And yet Dave Ross had the technology to film this nonsense. Genius.

In fact those are the only lama videos they have up from that era. HMMM. I wonder why? :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y5Z8Gpq-RUY

[Kellen Bassette]

Maybe you do not understand what is happening here. Ross routinely craps on tcma and most notably for the unrealistic reliance on forms. Most sensible people on this forum know that practicing forms does not produce fighters. Ross ranted and raved about this for a long time. Then he goes and says he can point to in his forms where those throws he demoed came from which is hypocritical. Then he goes on to say that he did interviews with a television station showing them techniques that have come out of forms. You cannot have your cake and eat it too. Make fun of a guy for practicing forms when training for a fight? Fine. Claim you trained "hard core" with an old chinese guy and brag every opportunity you get about your trained fighters...and then talk about techniques in forms? Stupidity.

Well in a lot of ways, forms do show many of the major techniques in a system. I see nothing wrong with showing an application from a form and saying, "This is what it represents, but to make it work you need to practice it live with a resisting partner."

If your saying, "The moves are in the form, so I already know them;" well then you deserved to be crapped on; but we all know that's not what he was saying.

[GoldenBrain]

Nothing wrong with liking forms. Thinking you can somehow "pull" applications out of forms is a fools game and one of the reasons the "forms trainers" have been getting their butts handed to them by the people who have trained in the the more effective application based systems for more than 150 years.

Cool. But, consider this. Chain a bunch of the applications you practice together and call it a form. If you practiced the movements of your newly created form then do you not think you would understand what application you were doing?

Now, after you practice your newly created form, hit the mat and get serious about the applications.

Wholla, you are now able to do forms and practice applications realistically.

[Spiked]

Cool. But, consider this. Chain a bunch of the applications you practice together and call it a form. If you practiced the movements of your newly created form then do you not think you would understand what application you were doing?

Now, after you practice your newly created form, hit the mat and get serious about the applications.

Wholla, you are now able to do forms and practice applications realistically.

Applications for realz are spontaneous. No two applications work in two situations. Why hold onto it? There is no reason to do so.

A random situation happens and you need to figure out what to do in that moment. Instead of stringing techniques it is better to have someone attack you somehow and then figure it out.

[GoldenBrain]

Maybe you do not understand what is happening here. Ross routinely craps on tcma and most notably for the unrealistic reliance on forms. Most sensible people on this forum know that practicing forms does not produce fighters. Ross ranted and raved about this for a long time. Then he goes and says he can point to in his forms where those throws he demoed came from which is hypocritical. Then he goes on to say that he did interviews with a television station showing them techniques that have come out of forms. You cannot have your cake and eat it too. Make fun of a guy for practicing forms when training for a fight? Fine. Claim you trained "hard core" with an old chinese guy and brag every opportunity you get about your trained fighters...and then talk about techniques in forms? Stupidity.

Bro, I get what's going on here. I promise you, I'm not dull. What you fail to understand is most of us don't need you as our champion. David is entitled to his opinion. You're also entitled to yours however you come off as a troll so that type of behavior is unwanted. If he is mean to somebody then let them handle it. Who are you to proclaim yourself our hero and champion?

[LaRoux]

If your saying, "The moves are in the form, so I already know them;" well then you deserved to be crapped on; but we all know that's not what he was saying.

Essentially, that's what he was saying.

[LaRoux]

Cool. But, consider this. Chain a bunch of the applications you practice together and call it a form. If you practiced the movements of your newly created form then do you not think you would understand what application you were doing?

Now, after you practice your newly created form, hit the mat and get serious about the applications.

Wholla, you are now able to do forms and practice applications realistically.

If you are already practicing them in realistic manners, you wouldn't need to somehow "find" them in the form and it wouldn't even matter if they were there or not.

[LaRoux]

Hiding applications within a form or dance is a tradition in martial arts that goes back hundreds of years. There have been many periods throughout human history where people were killed for practicing martial arts so the applications were hidden in order to pass them along to younger generations. Forms were practiced in the open, and the applications shown in private. Hence the term closed door practice.

Once you hide something and cease to practice it in a realistic manner, it's pretty much finished as far as anything other than being a dance.

[GoldenBrain]

Applications for realz are spontaneous. No two applications work in two situations. Why hold onto it? There is no reason to do so.

A random situation happens and you need to figure out what to do in that moment.

Where do you hear me say not to practice applications in a realistic manner? I have trained hard, fought hard, practiced my applications in a very realistic manner and been tested to the limit of my abilities. No worries here about me being able to use the applications I practice.

Many people that practice TCMA or other traditional martial arts generally speak in a more humble way and are not trying to convince people to train in a way that suits them. Sure, many traditionalists have had their asses handed to them in competition but guess what Einstein, so have people who have only practiced modern MMA.

[lkfmdc]

I know this will be buried in the much as soon as I post it, but....


Spanky is apparently too young to remember that there were no camera phones back in the 90's.

http://www.sciencemuseum.org.uk/images/object_images/535x535/10319047.jpg

LOL, exactly

Despite protests to the contrary, we are clearly dealing with a Juvenile here

For the record (and for the sane to consider) I spent 16 years with CTS and there is probably less than 15 MINUTES of film of him... and most of it actually filmed by others from the "Living Treasure" movie, his public demos around the country and several interviews...

Ironically, the footage that IS up my hing-dai, being old kung fu people, debated and anguished over putting up for years... but in retrospect probably correctly but only because it is pearl before swine :D

[Kellen Bassette]

Applications for realz are spontaneous. No two applications work in two situations. Why hold onto it? There is no reason to do so.

A random situation happens and you need to figure out what to do in that moment. Instead of stringing techniques it is better to have someone attack you somehow and then figure it out.

If you just go straight to someone attacking you, you will be unable to develop good technique. This is why we drill. Do you think a boxer learns to slip/counter with uppercut, just by jumping in the ring? How long would it take him to get it down? How good would he be at it? How much better would he be if he drilled that application 1000 times while trying to make it work in sparring?

Applications don't work all the time but you can certainly set up the same technique multiple times. Do you think no one has ever ducked under a punch and scored double legs more than once?

[GoldenBrain]

Once you hide something and cease to practice it in a realistic manner, it's pretty much finished as far as anything other than being a dance.

Again, like I told the volleyballer, I have never stated people should practice applications in a non realistic way. Forms are just one of many facets of traditional martial arts. If a practitioner is not also testing applications in a realistic manner then they are completely missing the point of learning how to fight. But, guess what, that's also okay. Many people who practice martial arts don't have any interest in fighting. They want to get in shape and practice something neat and fun. Who cares if everybody who goes into a dojo, kwoon, academy, gym...etc., and even understands how to fight. Let it go man...:D

[LaRoux]

For the record (and for the sane to consider) I spent 16 years with CTS and there is probably less than 15 MINUTES of film of him... and most of it actually filmed by others from the "Living Treasure" movie, his public demos around the country and several interviews...

Ironically, the footage that IS up my hing-dai, being old kung fu people, debated and anguished over putting up for years... but in retrospect probably correctly but only because it is pearl before swine :D

No one is saying anything about the footage of him. The footage is of you. If you really were doing realistic training, there would also be footage of that instead of simply dancing around doing forms.

[Spiked]

Bro, I get what's going on here. I promise you, I'm not dull. What you fail to understand is most of us don't need you as our champion. David is entitled to his opinion. You're also entitled to yours however you come off as a troll so that type of behavior is unwanted. If he is mean to somebody then let them handle it. Who are you to proclaim yourself our hero and champion?

I am not your hero. YOu are a nobody like me. David finds out something about people whether it is pictures or what not and then he uses it to defame them. I am just dishing out what he clearly cannot handle since he has me on ignore now. I do not care about this forum or about kung fu. Could not care less.

[LaRoux]

If you just go straight to someone attacking you, you will be unable to develop good technique. This is why we drill. Do you think a boxer learns to slip/counter with uppercut, just by jumping in the ring? How long would it take him to get it down? How good would he be at it? How much better would he be if he drilled that application 1000 times while trying to make it work in sparring?

Applications don't work all the time but you can certainly set up the same technique multiple times. Do you think no one has ever ducked under a punch and scored double legs more than once?

Muay Thai fighters, boxers, wrestlers, BJJ guys... they all start sparring pretty quickly after they start training. That's what makes them good.

[Kellen Bassette]

Once you hide something and cease to practice it in a realistic manner, it's pretty much finished as far as anything other than being a dance.

I think if taolu were viewed in the same way as wai ku, it would be no big deal. Then it would make perfect sense to play a form. Trouble is it would seem silly to have ten of them, it would also make it hard for someone to make an easy living teaching forms...

[LaRoux]

Again, like I told the volleyballer, I have never stated people should practice applications in a non realistic way.

You claimed that historically they did that when they were not allowed to train with those techniques and they "hid" them.

[Spiked]

No one is saying anything about the footage of him. The footage is of you. If you really were doing realistic training, there would also be footage of that instead of simply dancing around doing forms.

He has nothing, La Roux. All he has are still photos that were probably faked.

"hey, get me in a leg lock and take a photo." Fast forward 20 years and now he is claiming they knew to work on ground work BEFORE Royce Gracie came around.

[Kellen Bassette]

Muay Thai fighters, boxers, wrestlers, BJJ guys... they all start sparring pretty quickly after they start training. That's what makes them good.

I understand that. They also isolate techniques and work on them, they don't just go into the ring and do no other training at all. Spiked was saying it's pointless to drill an application because we don't know how it will turn out.

There's basically two kinds of live training, sparring/rolling and drilling with a partner...would you throw half of that away?

[Kellen Bassette]

I do not care about this forum or about kung fu. Could not care less.

Why are you here????? :confused::confused::confused:

[Spiked]

David is actually just keeping the footage a secret so he does not give it away. LOL.

This video is akin to students doing push hands with their teachers them win. But then when an outsider comes in the teacher gets beat down. Though he is just demoing technique there is no proof he could ever pull that off on a resisting opponent. THis video is Dave Ross doing San Da push hands.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nzur-Kyx4mg

[LaRoux]

I understand that. They also isolate techniques and work on them, they don't just go into the ring and do no other training at all. Spiked was saying it's pointless to drill an application because we don't know how it will turn out.

There's basically two kinds of live training, sparring/rolling and drilling with a partner...would you throw half of that away?

No, what he is claiming is that application comes from circumstances encountered in realistic situations. Application does not come from stringing techniques together in some theoretical manner of how fighting is supposed to happen.

Drilling comes from examining what happens in realistic application.

[GoldenBrain]

I am not your hero. YOu are a nobody like me. David finds out something about people whether it is pictures or what not and then he uses it to defame them. I am just dishing out what he clearly cannot handle since he has me on ignore now. I do not care about this forum or about kung fu. Could not care less.


You sure post a lot for somebody who doesn't care. So, why did you feel compelled to dish out whatever you are doing to David? From what I saw, he created a thread with a question. You not only didn't contribute to the thread and answer the question but you immediately attacked David. If you have a ******** for David then why don't you just keep it to private message rather than completely derail a thread that others may wish to discuss?

[Spiked]

You sure post a lot for somebody who doesn't care. So, why did you feel compelled to dish out whatever you are doing to David? From what I saw, he created a thread with a question. You not only didn't contribute to the thread and answer the question but you immediately attacked David. If you have a ******** for David then why don't you just keep it to private message rather than completely derail a thread that others may wish to discuss?

Nah. This stimulates me while I am at work. Do you really think anyone gets useful information about martial arts training from a forum? You are on here as a form of socializing. This is me socializing while I am at work. THey really should not let people have internet access at work.

The thread does not have to be derailed. You could choose to ignore the drama and continue the discussion. Why you chose to join in and side with Pork Bun eater is beyond me but that is what you chose and you are free to do that. If you want to get involved in the drama then by all means stay. If not then continue posting about the original topic. The "real threads" die out in a day anyway so does it all really matter?

[GoldenBrain]

You claimed that historically they did that when they were not allowed to train with those techniques and they "hid" them.

Below is my original post. Read it again and try really hard to comprehend instead of just picking parts out of it that suit your argument. I'll give you a hint... "Forms were practiced in the open, and the applications shown in private. Hence the term closed door practice."
and
"Personally I think if people want to learn to fight realistically then they actually need to fight or at least spar really hard and train their applications in a realistic manner."

Now here's my original post...

Hiding applications within a form or dance is a tradition in martial arts that goes back hundreds of years. There have been many periods throughout human history where people were killed for practicing martial arts so the applications were hidden in order to pass them along to younger generations. Forms were practiced in the open, and the applications shown in private. Hence the term closed door practice.

Also many movements in forms are simply to train the body to move a certain way. This is done over and over to create muscle memory. After a period of time the applications are taught.

In modern times we have the luxury of training brutal applications right out in the open without fear of being locked up or killed so there isn't much need for forms. That's cool, but it's also cool if somebody wants to practice forms.

Personally I think if people want to learn to fight realistically then they actually need to fight or at least spar really hard and train their applications in a realistic manner. I do this, and I like doing forms. I have no problem picking out applications within my forms. There are hundreds of applications in the forms I practice. I also practice a lot of applications that aren't in the forms I know, but I have a mixed bag of styles which is also okay. I look at forms as the library where I pick out books to read. Applications being the books.

There are also so called hidden applications in forms. This is simply a place in the form where you substitute something like a kick where there was a punch or a throwing motion or whatever.

I have trouble understanding why a person who dislikes forms or even practicing in an "unrealistic" manner tries so hard to convince others who like to practice forms to quit doing what they like. It's no big deal if you like MMA, but it really shouldn't be a big deal if somebody likes forms or TCMA or whatever they like. Each to their own!

One thing most people on these forums do not need is a champion. And, one that continuously tries to convince them to do something they don't want to do is even less desirable.

[Kellen Bassette]

No, what he is claiming is that application comes from circumstances encountered in realistic situations. Application does not come from stringing techniques together in some theoretical manner of how fighting is supposed to happen.

Drilling comes from examining what happens in realistic application.

I'm not disagreeing with what your saying. Spiked said,
No two applications work in two situations. Why hold onto it? There is no reason to do so.

I disagree with this. Many people have pulled off the same move multiple times in similar situations.

[GoldenBrain]

Nah. This stimulates me while I am at work. Do you really think anyone gets useful information about martial arts training from a forum? You are on here as a form of socializing. This is me socializing while I am at work. THey really should not let people have internet access at work.

The thread does not have to be derailed. You could choose to ignore the drama and continue the discussion. Why you chose to join in and side with Pork Bun eater is beyond me but that is what you chose and you are free to do that. If you want to get involved in the drama then by all means stay. If not then continue posting about the original topic. The "real threads" die out in a day anyway so does it all really matter?


So not only are you a trolling piece of **** but you are intentionally stealing company time. Nice!

The thread is gone at this point so all I'm trying to do is help you to realize the error of your ways so you don't continue to do this in every thread on this forum.

[LaRoux]

Hiding applications within a form or dance is a tradition in martial arts that goes back hundreds of years. There have been many periods throughout human history where people were killed for practicing martial arts so the applications were hidden in order to pass them along to younger generations. Forms were practiced in the open, and the applications shown in private. Hence the term closed door practice.

Pretty much the same effect. Training in private behind closed doors isn't much better than only training forms.

The systems I mentioned earlier are strong mainly because they are practiced publicly and have been testing in that format over and over through the years.

[YouKnowWho]

Chain a bunch of the applications you practice together and call it a form.

This is the approach that I like to take. If the first 4 move of your form is right jab, left cross, right hook, left uppercut, nobody on earth will say that your form training won't work. My guys always train roundhouse kick, side kick combo. You can always use it to set up your punches and clinch.

The following clip shows a combo of:

- roundhouse kick,
- side kick,
- right hook,
- left hook,
- right under hook,
- left under hook,
- knee strike,
- outer hook take down.

It has been proved to works in combat twice back to back within 15 seconds even if it's a pre-defined sequence.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IEvaUkfNNGo

As long as you can make it work in combat. There is nothing wrong with "pre-defined sequence" (you can call it short form if you like).

[LaRoux]

This is the approach that I like to take. If the first 4 move of your form is right jab, left cross, right hook, left uppercut, nobody on earth will say that your form training won't work. My guys always train roundhouse kick, side kick combo. You can always use it to set up your punches and clinch.

The following clip shows a combo of:

- roundhouse kick,
- side kick,
- right hook,
- left hook,
- right under hook,
- left under hook,
- knee strike,
- outer hook take down.

It has been proved to works in combat twice back to back within 15 seconds even it's a pre-defined sequence.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IEvaUkfNNGo

No where in that clip did you see those combinations thrown in that sequence twice. You saw it once. Makes absolutely no sense to train a long sequence of techs again and again in the same order. That clip reinforces the fact that that's not the way fighting works.

[Spiked]

Youknowwho,

You are an interesting poster. You do not respond ever. You just throw out information constantly without ever engaging in conversation.

How are you?

[YouKnowWho]

No where in that clip did you see those combinations thrown in that sequence twice. You saw it once. Makes absolutely no sense to train a long sequence of techs again and again in the same order. That clip reinforces the fact that that's not the way fighting works.

The 1st sequence is from, 0.01 to 0.05 (the roundhouse kick and side kick was not filmed. I was the person to record that film so I know the roundhouse kick and side kick were there). The 2nd sequence is from 0.06 to 0.15.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IEvaUkfNNGo

Of course if you can get into double under hooks, you won't need double hook punches.

[YouKnowWho]

Youknowwho,

You are an interesting poster. You do not respond ever. You just throw out information constantly without ever engaging in conversation.

How are you?
I'm fine, thank you. For a while I thought this is another WC thread.

I don't like to argue. I have no intention to change other's opinion. I may try 1 or 2 more response if someone challenges my post. After that I would stop and I don't care whether or not I'm the person to have the last words.

[GoldenBrain]

Pretty much the same effect. Training in private behind closed doors isn't much better than only training forms.

The systems I mentioned earlier are strong mainly because they are practiced publicly and have been testing in that format over and over through the years.

We're really not that far apart here. No doubt those are good systems. Also, no doubt many who train TCMA don't know their ass from a hole in the ground. But, that doesn't mean there aren't some out there who do. ;)

I've studied in a closed door system and have had the **** beat out of me behind that closed door. It's not all silk and candles behind the closed door.

[LaRoux]

The 1st sequence is from, 0.01 to 0.05 (the roundhouse kick and side kick was not filmed. I was the person to record that film so I know the roundhouse kick and side kick were there). The 2nd sequence is from 0.06 to 0.15.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IEvaUkfNNGo

You are making thing up. One can clearly see that the end of the first sequence right before the takedown is very different from the end of the sequence before the second takedown.

The first sequence necessitates going under/inside the opponents hook and doing a near side leg trip. The second sequence is a jab/clinch/knee to a far side leg trip.

As I said, this clip supports the point that you don't do the same series over and over again.

[LaRoux]

We're really not that far apart here. No doubt those are good systems. Also, no doubt many who train TCMA don't know their ass from a hole in the ground. But, that doesn't mean there aren't some out there who do. ;)

I've studied in a closed door system and have had the **** beat out of me behind that closed door. It's not all silk and candles behind the closed door.

Getting beat up behind closed doors means nothing.Third graders get the snot beat out them in school yard fights. That doesn't mean the kid beating them up had any skills. And neither does it mean the guys who beat you up behind closed doors had any skills.

[Kellen Bassette]

For a while I thought this is another WC thread.

Ouch.....:o

[Spiked]

We're really not that far apart here. No doubt those are good systems. Also, no doubt many who train TCMA don't know their ass from a hole in the ground. But, that doesn't mean there aren't some out there who do. ;)

I've studied in a closed door system and have had the **** beat out of me behind that closed door. It's not all silk and candles behind the closed door.

Sounds like you have spent too much time in the closet. Time to come out. :)

[YouKnowWho]

You are making thing up. One can clearly see that the end of the first sequence right before the takedown is very different from the end of the sequence before the second takedown.

The first sequence necessitates going under/inside the opponents hook and doing a near side leg trip. The second sequence is a jab/clinch/knee to a far side leg trip.

As I said, this clip supports the point that you don't do the same series over and over again.

When you use "outer hook", you should try to hook your opponent's back leg. Sometime his back leg is blocked by his front leg. His back leg is in such a angle that your leg cannot reach to it. When this happen, you can only hook his front leg instead. Of course you can use the other leg to hook his back leg. But not everybody are good on both legs.

A sequence is just a pattern. Modification are required when needed. The sequence is "dead" but we human being are "alive".

[bawang]

That was not me, bawang. LOL . I graduated from high school when you were still in your father's dik

I get confused because u all sound the same. like a fa got.

[Spiked]

When you use "outer hook", you should try to hook your opponent's back leg. Sometime his back leg is blocked by his front leg (his back leg is in such a angle that your leg cannot reach it). When this happen, you can only hook his front leg instead.

A sequence is just a pattern. Modification are required when needed. The sequence is "dead" but we human being are "alive".

This is exactly what I am talking about. Personally I do not care about the video in question. But you made a claim and la roux said the string of techniques is not visible in the video. Where is your reply to that? You just ignore it and move onto whatever happens to be in your mind at the moment.

[Spiked]

I get confused because u all sound the same. like a fa got.

You are just mad because you were born a big ugly Mongolian who was forces to study tai chi to please his ancestors

[bawang]

You are just mad because you were born a big ugly Mongolian who was forces to study tai chi to please his ancestors

im annoyed because you are draining the lolz from this place at an unsustainable rate.

[Spiked]

im annoyed because you are draining the lolz from this place at an unsustainable rate.

I aim to please

[YouKnowWho]

you made a claim and la roux said the string of techniques is not visible in the video. Where is your reply to that? You just ignore it and move onto whatever happens to be in your mind at the moment.

I did not ignore it and I had answered as the following. It was filmed back in 2006. If I can find my original tape, I'll post it.


The 1st sequence is from, 0.01 to 0.05 (the roundhouse kick and side kick was not filmed. I was the person to record that film so I know the roundhouse kick and side kick were there). ....

[LaRoux]

A sequence is just a pattern. Modification are required when needed. The sequence is "dead" but we human being are "alive".


Thank you for supporting my point that it makes no sense to practice patterns in a set sequence.

[bawang]

I did not ignore it and I had answered as the following:

this person does not actually train any martial arts mang

[GoldenBrain]

Getting beat up behind closed doors means nothing.Third graders get the snot beat out them in school yard fights. That doesn't mean the kid beating them up had any skills. And neither does it mean the guys who beat you up behind closed doors had any skills.


I think you know that's not the kind of beating I'm talking about. Please do everybody on the forum a favor and take peoples comments seriously. How could you possibly know what the skill level is of who I've sparred with behind closed doors or out in the open for that matter? So to say what you just said is simply trolling. Or, maybe you're just a rude hateful individual and you can't help it. :rolleyes:

I wouldn't just let some teacher beat me up for no reason no matter how much I wanted to learn a style. I'm talking about pressure testing applications in a realistic manner through hard sparring with very skilled individuals. Many of the people I spar with also compete in MMA. And, no I'm not going to break all that down technique by technique over a dozen posts just so you can keep being rude and feed your own ego.

[Spiked]

this person does not actually train any martial arts mang

Neither do you. You just post drawings of grappling from old tcma manuals and then claim they had grappling. Lols lols

There are plenty of lols still. Your photos are as bad as David Ross's still photos of him "training".

Just becauSe an old Chinese guy drew it in a book 1000 years ago does not make it true. Stop believing in fairy tales

[bawang]

Just becauSe an old Chinese guy drew it in a book 1000 years ago does not make it true. Stop believing in fairy tales

its a conspiracy

[GoldenBrain]

Sounds like you have spent too much time in the closet. Time to come out. :)

Ooooooo, Burn!!! You really got me there didn't you Mr. Volleyball. One day you'll grow up and realize just how silly some of your comments are.

[bawang]

Ooooooo, Burn!!! You really got me there didn't you Mr. Volleyball. One day you'll grow up and realize just how silly some of your comments are.

you obviously don't have much experience irl with assburgers

[GoldenBrain]

you obviously don't have much experience irl with assburgers

Good point. I hadn't considered that.

[Spiked]

its a conspiracy

There are drawings of aliens and people levitating too. I guess that is all real.

Post some more awesome "information" from your Chinese books. Please.

[Kellen Bassette]

You just post drawings of grappling from old tcma manuals and then claim they had grappling. Lols lols

Just becauSe an old Chinese guy drew it in a book 1000 years ago does not make it true. Stop believing in fairy tales

I don't even know what to say to this....stupidest statement of the month, hands down....

[Spiked]

Ooooooo, Burn!!! You really got me there didn't you Mr. Volleyball. One day you'll grow up and realize just how silly some of your comments are.

Bro, I barely take this seriously so you should not either.

[Spiked]

I don't even know what to say to this....stupidest statement of the month, hands down....

Kellen,
I have no issues with you but please continue to take shots at me.

[bawang]

There are drawings of aliens and people levitating too. I guess that is all real.

Post some more awesome "information" from your Chinese books. Please.

you having friends.

[Pete]

spiked how are you not banned yet? :eek: :p

[Kellen Bassette]

Kellen,
I have no issues with you but please continue to take shots at me.

I have no issues with anyone here...just calling it as I see it.... :)

[Kellen Bassette]

spiked how are you not banned yet? :eek: :p

A slow week I guess... :P

[Spiked]

Wow guys, crack open a beer, relax and call it a night. All this bickering is moot.

This is all just play. I save the real stuff for when Dave starts acting up.

[Spiked]

spiked how are you not banned yet? :eek: :p

People like Dave Ross do much worse than me.


Besides, who says we all need to agree and get along? This forum is dead usually without people like me.

[Kellen Bassette]

People like Dave Ross do much worse than me.


Besides, who says we all need to agree and get along? This forum is dead usually without people like me.

Stories of us agreeing and getting along have been greatly exaggerated.

[Spiked]

you having friends.

You do not, mang

[Blacktiger]

Seriously needs to be a KF forum Kumite every 5 years in Hong Kong....

[bawang]

You do not, mang

every year you start up very clever, then you quickly run out of steam. this is why you always get banned so fast. because you are worthless.

[Pete]

A slow week I guess... :P

fair enough :D


People like Dave Ross do much worse than me.


he's nowhere near as bad as you...i agree sometimes he goes a little personal when disagreeing with someone but all your posts are poor attempts at trying to wind people up :o

^ you know him bawang?


Seriously needs to be a KF forum Kumite every 5 years in Hong Kong....

5 months more like :D

[LaRoux]

I don't even know what to say to this....stupidest statement of the month, hands down....

What is stupid is thinking those drawings were representative of real grappling.

[LaRoux]

Wrestling techniques have been illustrated in manuals and on stone dating back thousands of years. I'm certain they were representative of something very real.

Those drawings were someones representation of what his theoretical idea of what single leg takedowns were supposed to be like, not like what they were in actual application.

[Blacktiger]

You all need to take mushrooms together:p

Tribal ritual style ;)

[Spiked]

every year you start up very clever.

I had a very specific purpose for coming to this forum and that has almost been fulfilled. I came here to give Dave Ross a taste of his own medicine. You are just upset because you want to have his child. In reality I have seen you blatantly make fun of people for no reason. Your other posts are pictures of ancient Chinese grappling which make me lol.

I do not have gripes with anyone else so please stop trying to start with me.
Thank you for calling me clever. :)

[Spiked]

fair enough :D



he's nowhere near as bad as you...i agree sometimes he goes a little personal when disagreeing with someone but all your posts are poor attempts at trying to wind people up :o


If anyone gets wound up by an anonymous internet entity then maybe he should get therapy. The other option is for people to not announce who they are in real life and then nobody can talk crap about anybody. But alas that is not the way it happens.

[Kellen Bassette]

What is stupid is thinking those drawings were representative of real grappling.

Bawang uses old drawing and texts of grappling moves to illustrate grappling existed in old Gong Fu. What would you like him to use? A 500 year old Youtube video???

Obviously it's a bit hard to see all the mechanics, the set up and the full range of motion from a drawing used to indicate a technique. Nobody is saying this is the best way to do something, or shows high level grappling, or anything like that.

Someone says there was no grappling in ancient Kung Fu. Someone else produces definitive evidence that there was...other person essentially responds with, "I know you are, but what am I?"

[Spiked]

Bawang uses old drawing and texts of grappling moves to illustrate grappling existed in old Gong Fu. What would you like him to use? A 500 year old Youtube video???

Obviously it's a bit hard to see all the mechanics, the set up and the full range of motion from a drawing used to indicate a technique. Nobody is saying this is the best way to do something, or shows high level grappling, or anything like that.

Someone says there was no grappling in ancient Kung Fu. Someone else produces definitive evidence that there was...other person essentially responds with, "I know you are, but what am I?"

Is a drawing of a UFO on a cave definitive evidence of alien existence???

[Kellen Bassette]

Is a drawing of a UFO on a cave definitive evidence of alien existence???

So your rational is; when they drew pictures to illustrate techniques they trained...they purposely named and described movements they did not train; just to fool people centuries later into thinking they did?

Sure I guess that's more plausible than the old manuals, entire books on the subject, lineages that maintained grappling techniques and the consensus that Gong Fu was preceded and derived from old Shuai Jiao/Mongolian Wrestling...

You seems to miss the point that no one is saying the techs were performed the same, or as well as modern grappling; that there was the level of importance placed on it as today, or what, exactly were all the various methods of training these moves. (All that would be more or less speculation.)

We are saying there is pretty serious evidence that grappling was always a part of Kung Fu.

[pazman]

Is a drawing of a UFO on a cave definitive evidence of alien existence???

By your standards, then the Greeks never had wrestling, because all we have are sculptures, wall paintings, various textual descriptions and records, but no actual proof.:confused:

[lkfmdc]

Wow, the entire forum has gone full retard!

Can't say I didn't warn you

But for those of you who are still a bit sane.....


Bawang uses old drawing and texts of grappling moves to illustrate grappling existed in old Gong Fu. What would you like him to use? A 500 year old Youtube video???




So your rational is; when they drew pictures to illustrate techniques they trained...they purposely named and described movements they did not train; just to fool people centuries later into thinking they did?



Posts like those make perfect sense.....

And that is precisely the problem, you are trying to reason with people whose sole reason for being here is to disrupt things and fill up the forum with trash, ie TROLLS

They draw you into arguing straw men.... ie it's a complete waste of time

Now you can all return to your arguments

[bawang]

as long as they do not harm you, mighty david ross. you are too precious to lose.

I had a very specific purpose for coming to this forum and that has almost been fulfilled. I came here to give Dave Ross a taste of his own medicine.

david ross reminds you of the bully that beat you into the ground.


You are just upset because you want to have his child. In reality I have seen you blatantly make fun of people for no reason. Your other posts are pictures of ancient Chinese grappling which make me lol.

let me make this clear, muthafuka. I exist only to annoy the tightey whitey. you are new prey.

[lkfmdc]

People who are failures in life (spiked and laroux) hate people who are successful and famous (ME :D !!) .... the internet gives them an opportunity to vent their frustrations, and in their perverted mind they think they are raising themselves up when in fact they are making themselves even bigger laughing stocks

Bawang is probably right, these guys were probably badly bullied as kids (ie a few years ago ;) I mean, come on, they argue like 12 yr olds)

I just want to remind you all, despite their puffery here on the forum, at night, in their mother's basement, they cry themselves to sleep at night

[bawang]

Bawang is probably right, these guys were probably badly bullied as kids (ie a few years ago ;) I mean, come on, they argue like 12 yr olds)




its almost 100% certain this guy was an awkard shy kid looking for kung fu classes, and got extremely intimidated and felt humiliated by the atmosphere.

[-N-]

Gene pays you all to entertain us, right?

[lkfmdc]

Gene pays you all to entertain us, right?

The truth is, Gene LOVES this ****.... It keeps people on the forum and allows him his one liners and links to martila arts mart (http://www.martialartsmart.com/training-equipment.html)

[bawang]

if this muthafuka tried the same sh1t at bullshido he would be swallowed alive mang

[Spiked]

as long as they do not harm you, mighty david ross. you are too precious to lose.


david ross reminds you of the bully that beat you into the ground.

If you ever saw David Ross fight you see how funny your statement was. The only place he could bully anyone is online. Lol lol

[pazman]

If you ever saw David Ross fight you see how funny your statement was. The only place he could bully anyone is online. Lol lol

Let's see your footage, pigeon.

[Spiked]

Let's see your footage, pigeon.

Bra, I am a coach. My students are wrecking it.

[pazman]

http://www.nashvillescene.com/binary/0955/1364916529-cool_story_bro._cool_story_bro_ba91c2_3376394.jpg

Spike's Students Wrecking It (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R0ms24w_GKU)

[lkfmdc]

Exclusive shot of spiked trying to post

[Spiked]

Exclusive shot of spiked trying to post

How does a guy who trains all these fighters have so much time to surf the web? :)

[GoldenBrain]

Bra, I am a coach. My students are wrecking it.

Do you coach women or men's volleyball?

[GoldenBrain]

How does a guy who trains all these fighters have so much time to surf the web? :)


I find your statement humorous. You say you're a coach and yet somehow you have racked up 190 posts in the last 4 days since you joined this forum so how is it possible you can't answer this question for yourself? I get it. You don't take this seriously so you're probably making up the whole coach thing.

[GoldenBrain]

I really should have learned from the last few days so I'm posting this as a reminder to myself and others.

7883

[Spiked]

I find your statement humorous. You say you're a coach and yet somehow you have racked up 190 posts in the last 4 days since you joined this forum so how is it possible you can't answer this question for yourself? I get it. You don't take this seriously so you're probably making up the whole coach thing.

Hey, who forged your transcript genius?

[wenshu]

http://cdn.smosh.com/sites/default/files/ftpuploads/bloguploads/0913/wtf-cant-explain-spicy-mustard.jpg

[Syn7]

Man... Now I have coffee in my nose!!! That one caught me off guard. Thanx for that Wenshu.

[LaRoux]

People who are failures in life (spiked and laroux) hate people who are successful and famous (ME :D !!) ....

Haaha... you are more deluded that I thought you were.

[LaRoux]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UDLMEB8EOFU

All of the techniques in this clip I can easily show you where they are in my traditional Chinese martial arts system...

But I know people whose sifu told them their style had no takedowns, this I don't actuallly believe...

So, what takedowns exist in your system?

I don't think you ever showed them like you said you could.

Go ahead and show where they are in your traditional Chinese martial arts system.

[Spiked]

I don't think you ever showed them like you said you could.

Go ahead and show where they are in your traditional Chinese martial arts system.

He is going to scan pictures and say they are in the forms. Once he scanned a pic of Lana's overhand downward strike and said that could be a hip throw. Lol lol

He has no video of himself and the people he trained with back then doing any grappling.

Dave, show is the Dancing Around the Question form.