Ancient Sanda

[Kellen Bassette]

Some conversation in the Shaolin forum about sanda existing, (or not) in old Gong Fu, has derailed the dead horse beating that was going on. I thought maybe we could discuss the topic here....

From Shemmati....


but Sanda is an ancient art! and it also looks very much the same as what many modern Sanda fighters do. closed guards, standing stances, etc. there are famous Luohan 36, 108, and 360 Sanda combat techniques in the ancient curriculums.


From Miqi....


This is a really important, tertiary sub-text to this discussion. The great yiquan master Yao ZongXun said that the real, true CMA of the past was much closer to muay thai than to forms practice of any type.

Myself....



Sanda, as a training method or competition is likely thousands of years old. Sanda as Shaolin techniques is hundreds of years old. Sanda practiced as its own method in a structured curriculum has been in existence longer than Muay Thai has been in the boxing ring.

Sanda wasn't invented by the communists in the '70's. They just standardized a rule set and the clothing; and have been changing it ever since.

Counter points by LFJ....


There is no ancient "art" of sanda. It is a generic term used in many traditional styles for sparring or free fight training. But the techniques, strategies, etc. each art uses aren't the same as modern sport sanda, nor the same between different traditional styles. That is something quite different. Luohan sanda or such has nothing to do with modern sport sanda, except that they share the broad term.

I think this is a good discussion....any thoughts on the subject?

[mickey]

Greetings,

The counterpoint established by LFJ is correct.

Fighting is fighting.


Additionally, if you go back a few hundred years you probably would seeing a different kind of play, one where weapons, like the spear, were played.



mickey

[Kellen Bassette]

Fighting is fighting.


Which is exactly why I believe concepts and methods were the same centuries ago...(minus whatever minor, necessary adjustments are made for the gear, rules, ring,)

[mickey]

Greetings Kellen Bassette,

Yes, fighting is fighting.

But how did it look? What we have presently is nothing more than civilian combatives. Field combatives required weapons. So you would something along the lines of friendly spearplay, archery competitions, strength competitions, and wrestling. No right minded king would appreciate having his top warriors killed in friendly competition. And this would not be open to civilians as you see it today.

mickey

[lkfmdc]

First, as frightening as this is, in this case I would probably agree with miqi.... when Chinese martial art was used for fighting "in the old day" it had less variation, was a smaller curriculum and was more direct... only thing I would suggest is that it would have looked like the old Muay Thai of the 1920's and not the modern ring version... once you create a venue to test a method (what you guys call "sport") it evolves

San Da, Da Lei Tai, Sanshou, Pak Gihk, etc there have always been terms in TCMA for fighting and application... but what we today think of as sanda/sanshou is not some ancient Shaolin art. It comes directly from the modern military experiment

[Kellen Bassette]

San Da, Da Lei Tai, Sanshou, Pak Gihk, etc there have always been terms in TCMA for fighting and application... but what we today think of as sanda/sanshou is not some ancient Shaolin art. It comes directly from the modern military experiment

Modern Chinese military experiment with sanda began in the 1920's. Muay Thai adopting western rules began in the '30's, about the same time as the founding of the oldest Karate schools. Just for some perspective on the age of sanda as a curriculum.

[lkfmdc]

Modern Chinese military experiment with sanda began in the 1920's. Muay Thai adopting western rules began in the '30's, about the same time as the founding of the oldest Karate schools. Just for some perspective on the age of sanda as a curriculum.

Nope, Muay Thai was in the ring in the 1920's
Modern Sanshou / San Da started in 1925

There is a remarkably intersting comparison between San Da vs Kung fu and old THai arts vs Modern Muay Thai

[MarathonTmatt]

Interesting points. Especially the Muay Thai comparison.
Kellen- (or anyone)- do you think the old CMA was closer to Muay Thai? northern eagle claw grab in longfist can be like a muay thai clinch (maybe applied differently in theory, but looks the same). Also a lot of basics I learned from the old longfist style are like kickboxing techniques (jab, reverse, hook, uppercut, kicking, combos, etc.) Maybe the respective governments promoted the arts in different directions (performance/ health vs. sport fighting/kickboxing) furthering whatever divide already existed?

[Kellen Bassette]

Nope, Muay Thai was in the ring in the 1920's
Modern Sanshou / San Da started in 1925

There is a remarkably intersting comparison between San Da vs Kung fu and old THai arts vs Modern Muay Thai

Whampoa Military Academy opened May, 1924...birthplace of modern sanda curriculum. I have read Thai Boxing adopted western ring, rules and gloves over a period of time in the 1930's, but have not been able to find specific dates.

No matter, which is older isn't important...I'm just making the point that the idea is not new.

[lkfmdc]

Interesting points. Especially the Muay Thai comparison.



What people call "sport" and cast negative shadow upon is really "alive training"... when you make something alive it gets better, not worse




northern eagle claw



The original "eagle claw" as in the so called 108 locks of General Ngok Fei was not a flashy northern system. It was originally refeered to as "elephant stepping" ie it was a direct, forward moving and aggressive system with close quarters application

In the Shum Leung line there was unearthed an old film (8 mm maybe?) of a class from mainland before the move to HK, it looks more like a Judo or stand up Jujitsu class than a flashy kick oriented northern style

[lkfmdc]

Whampoa Military Academy opened May, 1924...birthplace of modern sanda curriculum. I have read Thai Boxing adopted western ring, rules and gloves over a period of time in the 1930's, but have not been able to find specific dates.

No matter, which is older isn't important...I'm just making the point that the idea is not new.

Yeah, 1924, I wasn't careful with my typing this morning

(and you probably got the Whampoa info from me!)

[Kellen Bassette]

Interesting points. Especially the Muay Thai comparison.
Kellen- (or anyone)- do you think the old CMA was closer to Muay Thai? northern eagle claw grab in longfist can be like a muay thai clinch (maybe applied differently in theory, but looks the same). Also a lot of basics I learned from the old longfist style are like kickboxing techniques (jab, reverse, hook, uppercut, kicking, combos, etc.) Maybe the respective governments promoted the arts in different directions (performance/ health vs. sport fighting/kickboxing) furthering whatever divide already existed?

Forms and performance have been around for centuries, (performance aspects also exist in ancient MT.) I think the oldest Gong Fu, however, was the development of specific gongs...basically training certain skills to mastery. I think the fighting was more stripped down, more mastery of the fundamentals...so yes, I think this would look closer to Muay Thai, (or Muay Boran, as Ross noted,) than to say the flamboyant theater we think of as Kung Fu today....

[Kellen Bassette]

Yeah, 1924, I wasn't careful with my typing this morning

(and you probably got the Whampoa info from me!)

Maybe originally, lol, (probably)....it's actually on many sources on the net now...but I've never had a reason to try to trace back to the original source...

[lkfmdc]

Today in mainland they don't want to discuss (or credit) the nationalist government... so sanda/sanshou mysteriously starts in the 1960's (even though "sanshou" was published in 1956)

san shou itslef was a fairly common term, and though the program did not have an official name early on, the term san shou was used in a lot of the documents

[Kellen Bassette]

Today in mainland they don't want to discuss (or credit) the nationalist government... so sanda/sanshou mysteriously starts in the 1960's (even though "sanshou" was published in 1956)

san shou itslef was a fairly common term, and though the program did not have an official name early on, the term san shou was used in a lot of the documents

I don't have the article to site, but I read something to the affect that Taiwan had maintained its' Kuoshu fights during the period that formal martial arts training was banned in China. After the Chinese government standardized Wushu taolu, there was criticism coming out of Taiwan for the lack of full contact fighting on the mainland. It was suggested that this loss of face prompted China's organization of sanda in the late '60's, early '70's.

IYO is their any truth to that assertion?

[lkfmdc]

I don't have the article to site, but I read something to the affect that Taiwan had maintained its' Kuoshu fights during the period that formal martial arts training was banned in China. After the Chinese government standardized Wushu taolu, there was criticism coming out of Taiwan for the lack of full contact fighting on the mainland. It was suggested that this loss of face prompted China's organization of sanda in the late '60's, early '70's.

IYO is their any truth to that assertion?

After the CCP vicotory in the civil war, CIVILIANS were prevented from practicing application based martial arts on the mainland. That did NOT stop the military.

I do however have reason to doubt that this was even a universal or enforced policy. The 1954 Guangdong sports almanac listed CTS and his si-hing Lei Fei San as the 3rd and 2nd place winners of the PROVINCIAL sparring championships (both had lost to a Hsing Yi fighter)... as far as I am aware Lei Fei San nor the Hsing Yi guy were military nor was the competition a military competition???

At the same time on Taiwan, they had the ANNUAL Lei Tai events, but as Willim CC Chen expressed to me once, that meant you got to fight ONCE A YEAR.... he said you got one, maybe two fights a year and then nothing....

[GeneChing]

(minus whatever minor, necessary adjustments are made for the gear, rules, ring,) However, I wouldn't consider gear, rules and ring minor. The improvement in sparring gear has allowed us to do a lot more than before with a greater degree of safety. Also advances in medicine are a major factor - just imagine what most of the pro MMA fighters might look like using pre-WWI medical methods. The rules are incredibly important and something that a lot of armchair martial artists totally overlook. These define the sport and any athlete or coach worth their salt knows how to play into them. And of course, the ring is a huge factor. Even Sunzi talked about the terrain. It's a completely different environment when dealing with a leitai vs. a cage vs. ropes & turnbuckles. But all that being said, fighting probably hasn't changed that much as human bodies haven't changed that much (we'll overlook performance enhancers by filing that in with medical advancements ;)), so the core is the same, just the terms might have changed.

[lkfmdc]

I'm inclined to agree with lkfmdc for the most part here



I won't tell anyone if you won't :D




However, I wouldn't consider gear, rules and ring minor. The improvement in sparring gear has allowed us to do a lot more than before with a greater degree of safety. Also advances in medicine are a major factor - just imagine what most of the pro MMA fighters might look like using pre-WWI medical methods. The rules are incredibly important and something that a lot of armchair martial artists totally overlook. These define the sport and any athlete or coach worth their salt knows how to play into them. And of course, the ring is a huge factor. Even Sunzi talked about the terrain. It's a completely different environment when dealing with a leitai vs. a cage vs. ropes & turnbuckles. But all that being said, fighting probably hasn't changed that much as human bodies haven't changed that much (we'll overlook performance enhancers by filing that in with medical advancements ;)), so the core is the same, just the terms might have changed.

fantastic post Gene, right on the money

[Kellen Bassette]

However, I wouldn't consider gear, rules and ring minor. The improvement in sparring gear has allowed us to do a lot more than before with a greater degree of safety. Also advances in medicine are a major factor - just imagine what most of the pro MMA fighters might look like using pre-WWI medical methods. The rules are incredibly important and something that a lot of armchair martial artists totally overlook. These define the sport and any athlete or coach worth their salt knows how to play into them. And of course, the ring is a huge factor. Even Sunzi talked about the terrain. It's a completely different environment when dealing with a leitai vs. a cage vs. ropes & turnbuckles.
This is all true; and playing to the rules is a very important element of sport fighting. I down played it because of the people who claim they cannot test their deadliez skillz in a sport format. I think that attitude is a cop out.



But all that being said, fighting probably hasn't changed that much as human bodies haven't changed that much (we'll overlook performance enhancers by filing that in with medical advancements ;)), so the core is the same, just the terms might have changed.

This being, the main point of my statement....

[GeneChing]

I down played it because of the people who claim they cannot test their deadliez skillz in a sport format. I think that attitude is a cop out. There is a place for those who don't compete in contemporary martial arts. For example, I am a big supporter of Tai Chi as therapy and for the elderly. My mom takes it and she's never going to compete, never going to use it in a fight, but it keeps her healthy and happy and that's just fantastic. So competition isn't the 'be all, end all' for martial arts. However, I agree with you, Kellen - the ol' too deadliez argument is reactionary. And sport combat is awesome, in every form, when taken to its highest level. I even love top level wushu taolu. But then, I love rhythmic gymnastics. It's all about skillz. And competition is one of the greatest arenas to showcase skillz. It's honest. You have to play by the rules.


I won't tell anyone if you won't :D I'm getting so tired of you telling me this. ;)

[wiz cool c]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YN1JoJcRvJg

[Kellen Bassette]

There is a place for those who don't compete in contemporary martial arts. For example, I am a big supporter of Tai Chi as therapy and for the elderly. My mom takes it and she's never going to compete, never going to use it in a fight, but it keeps her healthy and happy and that's just fantastic. So competition isn't the 'be all, end all' for martial arts. However, I agree with you, Kellen - the ol' too deadliez argument is reactionary. And sport combat is awesome, in every form, when taken to its highest level. I even love top level wushu taolu. But then, I love rhythmic gymnastics. It's all about skillz. And competition is one of the greatest arenas to showcase skillz. It's honest. You have to play by the rules.


I don't think everyone should compete...but I do believe MMA or sanda sparring is one of the best and most practical means to test your TCMA fighting skills.

I do however, want elderly, Tai Chi cage matches...with the option to use walkers and canes as weapons...:p

[GeneChing]

I do believe MMA or sanda sparring is one of the best and most practical means to test your TCMA fighting skills. It's certainly one of the safest and socially condoned methods.


walkers and canes as weapons...:p We already use canes (http://www.martialartsmart.com/dvdk-ca117a.html). Lots of canes (http://www.martialartsmart.com/dvdk-cm01.html). Obviously I need to develop a traditional Shaolin walker set. :)

[lkfmdc]

There is a place for those who don't compete in contemporary martial arts.



I have said this before, the discussions here quickly get off track due to language. "Sport" and "competition"... I prefer the words that Kano used in Judo; randori and shiai

Shiai/competiton is NOT for everyone, clearly so... but when people are young and in good health if they are doing martial arts they should be doing "randori" or working "alive"




For example, I am a big supporter of Tai Chi as therapy and for the elderly.



Definitely, and the hing-dai and I are working on a theraputic version of the Gam Gong Lihn Gong for people interested in health but not necessarily combat




the ol' too deadliez argument is reactionary.



that is one word for it ;)

[Kellen Bassette]

Obviously I need to develop a traditional Shaolin walker set. :)

Do it. Then we can take bets on how long it will take Sin The to lift it, perform it incorrectly and claim his version as the original. :p

:):eek::(:o

I will not derail my own threads, I will not derail my own threads, I will not...

[William123]

Modern Chinese military experiment with sanda began in the 1920's. Muay Thai adopting western rules began in the '30's, about the same time as the founding of the oldest Karate schools. Just for some perspective on the age of sanda as a curriculum.

Hi,
To add to the original discussion, Sanda is a more recent term to describe free fighting, unlike Sanshou which is much older. Professor Ma Mingda has a good article on this. Also scholar Lin Boyuan demonstrates that the term Sanda appeared in official publications after the reds took over, if my memory is correct sometime in the 1960s.

Combat sports like western boxing were banned in China in 1959 and the last traditional martial arts competition in China took place in 1955 or so. It took several years before some of this practices were allowed under the guidelines of the Sports Department (boxing was allowed in the 1980s).

Regarding the statement of a standardized Sanshou (not Sanda) program in the 1920s at the Whampoa Military Academy, it is not accurate. At the Academy there was a H2H combat program based on a traditional Chinese martial art, in this case Xingyiquan. The program included the five elements, linking form and a two person set. The actions from the 5 elements were applied to empty hand, dagger, rifle-bayonet and western type saber fighting.

Other traditional systems such as Lien Bu Quan were used for commando training, Qing Nian Quan for basic training, pici etc. However it appears the Guoshu Guan did try to create a standarized set of techniques/rules to be used in the leitai, but at the time of the first National Examination, those who fought did so using the skills learnt from their repsective martial arts style. And here lies the difference between what was taught to military units during the republican period vs. the PLA.

At some point the PLA started to develop their own training methods based on traditional and maybe modern methods of training, one of the old routines (1960s?) differs from the routines taught nowadays. The PLA teaches some units and civilian students the Junti Quan routines of which there are 4, the Wu Jing has their own set of empty hand and weapons routines such the dagger (with applications), riot police also have their own routines with baton, baton-shield, there is also bayonet fighting etc. In short, the PLA’s training methods do not come from a specific martial art as was the case during the republican period and the term Sanda was first used after the comunist take over.

[bawang]

Some conversation in the Shaolin forum about sanda existing, (or not) in old Gong Fu, has derailed the dead horse beating that was going on. I thought maybe we could discuss the topic here....



sanda means free fighting. there are some longfist 2 man forms called two man san da, two man san shou

[GeneChing]

And there are taolu for sanda.

[pazman]

And there are taolu for sanda.

Don't remind me. :(

[Mike Patterson]

After the CCP vicotory in the civil war, CIVILIANS were prevented from practicing application based martial arts on the mainland. That did NOT stop the military.

I do however have reason to doubt that this was even a universal or enforced policy. The 1954 Guangdong sports almanac listed CTS and his si-hing Lei Fei San as the 3rd and 2nd place winners of the PROVINCIAL sparring championships (both had lost to a Hsing Yi fighter)... as far as I am aware Lei Fei San nor the Hsing Yi guy were military nor was the competition a military competition???

At the same time on Taiwan, they had the ANNUAL Lei Tai events, but as Willim CC Chen expressed to me once, that meant you got to fight ONCE A YEAR.... he said you got one, maybe two fights a year and then nothing....

This is correct... Lei Tai events were annual in Taiwan when I was there. But how many fights you got depended on your division. I would say on average I fought 3 to 6 times per year. But some divisions were more sparse than that for certain.

We did train all year for the next year's event, but if you wanted to fight outsiders prior to the next contest you kinda had to resort to picking them in the street. Not that I would know anything about that... I just heard. ;)

[lkfmdc]

This is correct... Lei Tai events were annual in Taiwan when I was there. But how many fights you got depended on your division. I would say on average I fought 3 to 6 times per year. But some divisions were more sparse than that for certain.

We did train all year for the next year's event, but if you wanted to fight outsiders prior to the next contest you kinda had to resort to picking them in the street. Not that I would know anything about that... I just heard. ;)

Good to see you back Shihfu

I am going by what William CC Chen said, maybe he had one of those sparse weight classes.....

[Kellen Bassette]

We did train all year for the next year's event, but if you wanted to fight outsiders prior to the next contest you kinda had to resort to picking them in the street. Not that I would know anything about that... I just heard. ;)

Were you training at a traditional school, or a gym that was specifically geared to this event?

[lkfmdc]

Were you training at a traditional school, or a gym that was specifically geared to this event?

back then, there wasn't the "divide" you have today

Shihfu Patterson is from an amazing school in Taiwan - Shen Long Tang Shou Tao
(may have spelled it wrong, if I did, sorry)

[Mike Patterson]

@David,

Pretty right on.. I normally spell the second word "Lung" but hey, I get very confused sometimes with the shift to PinYin as I was brought up and educated through the Wade/Giles romanization when learning Mandarin. :confused:

I'm not sure what division William would have fought in.. Heavyweight division was always sparse as I remember (but I'm pretty sure he wasn't a heavyweight). The rest would have been luck of the draw. My divisions, (I started in the 70kg division and gradually moved up as I got older to the 75kg and then the 80kg), were always very heavily saturated.

But still, I would much have preferred if it was not only once per year back then. I liked the trend the United States Kuoshu was ingraining when I was still involved... with the quaterly regionals, then national and international contests. It's better for the fighter's experience.


@Kellen,

David is right. Not really such a divide in my day. There weren't really what you would call "gyms" back then... there was the school. We trained like we fought and fought like we trained and we did it consistently throughout the year. It was just how things were in that era.

[lkfmdc]

I never know what to call my place? A gym? A school? An academy? A facility?

Mo Gwoon / Wu Guan means a building martial arts is practiced in, that's what they are.... but when half the people in the community are doing stuff that has nothing to do with what you do, you distance yourself (at least I did) or you find yourself very lonely....

A few organizations had direct influence upon my current structure and Shen Lung Tang Shou Tao was definitely one of them... well organized TCMA with proper emphasis on the physical training and conditioning, real application and a nice balance of tradition and rational thinking

[GeneChing]

I never know what to call my place? A gym? A school? An academy? A facility? Should we launch a new thread? What should lkfmdc's place be called?

:o

[lkfmdc]

Should we launch a new thread? What should lkfmdc's place be called?

:o

you do realize that at this very moment spiked is trying despearately to find some way to use this :D

[lkfmdc]

Ps: Bad gene! Bad bad gene!!