Kung Fu and fighting

[lkfmdc]

Here are some "ring fights" from Hong Kong featuring people form TCMA background

Dai Sing Pek Gwa 1983

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qm5YPpVnM6c

Kung Fu movie actor who also kickboxed, I would guess late 70's??

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FHksx50Mtik

There are a lot of things we can say about these clips, like
1. Wow, kung fu guys fighting
2. "kickboxing rules" without real knees, elbows, clinch or even throws
3. but definitely NOt fake fights... these are real

My perspective, you can improve the performances here, but it is at least fighting, it is an excellent start

But from my perspective TCMA has not improved from here, they have gone in opposite direction....

Fighting used to be "the norm"... but not any more

[YouKnowWho]

The TCMA tries to use health, self-cultivation, inner peace, and performance as excuse to avoid combat.

I have never heard any boxer or wrestler ever talk about "self-cultivation". Why?

[lkfmdc]

The TCMA tries to use health, self-cultivation, inner peace, and performance as excuse to avoid combat.

I have never heard any boxer or wrestler ever talk about "self-cultivation". Why?

"self cultivation" and Taoist philosophy has been around a long time in Chinese martial art...

by now, most evidence tells us the "boxers" in the Boxer Rebellion were more religious sect than real martial artists, martial arts was just their "con"

But this "con" grew and grew and grew... big question is WHY?

[MightyB]

"self cultivation" and Taoist philosophy has been around a long time in Chinese martial art...

by now, most evidence tells us the "boxers" in the Boxer Rebellion were more religious sect than real martial artists, martial arts was just their "con"

But this "con" grew and grew and grew... big question is WHY?

What is to avoid extinction?

I'll take The Rapist for $200 Alex

http://www.thelostogle.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/trebek-and-connery-celebrity-jeopardy-snl.jpg

[lkfmdc]

What is to avoid extinction?



I don't necessarily agree ... many arts escaped extinction by going in OPPOSITE direction, ie they became better at fighting!!!!

[yeshe]

"Fighting used to be "the norm"... but not any more"
`This is why the out look is not good.TCMA has lost the culture of fighting.
We have all the drills,the skills,the conditioning,the forms with all the techniques inside them,encyclopedias worth of power generation theory and combat strategy,yet something falls short putting it all together.
Not enough time is spent hitting and getting hit. I my TCMA training I think I must have crescent kicked my own hand thousands of times more than ever drilling it on a person.

[bawang]

The TCMA tries to use health, self-cultivation, inner peace, and performance as excuse to avoid combat.

I have never heard any boxer or wrestler ever talk about "self-cultivation". Why?

ask mike Tyson or chris benoit

[lkfmdc]

"Fighting used to be "the norm"... but not any more"
`This is why the out look is not good.TCMA has lost the culture of fighting.
We have all the drills,the skills,the conditioning,the forms with all the techniques inside them,encyclopedias worth of power generation theory and combat strategy,yet something falls short putting it all together.
Not enough time is spent hitting and getting hit. I my TCMA training I think I must have crescent kicked my own hand thousands of times more than ever drilling it on a person.

Well, along same lines, here is my thinking also on this

When I trained with CTS, I literally trained with him 6 days a week, about 5 to 6 hours with him... if 35% of what we did was not fighting or conditioning related I still had 65% of my time for those two things (I do however think I am being GEREROUS with 35%, we have too much clap trap in CMA)

Today how many people do and hour class or an hour and 15 min classes only two times a week???

But I also think it is the "culture".. an hour class in many CMA places these days is not the harsh training of the past

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g16EseISVRo

[wenshu]

I have never heard any boxer or wrestler ever talk about "self-cultivation". Why?


ask mike Tyson

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gwjQ0Igsh4k

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j4A_cemYxck

Mike Tyson is The Sage of Sages.


I wish one of your guys had children so I could kick them in the ****ing head or stomp on they testicles so you could feel my pain, cause thats the pain I have, wakin up everyday

[-N-]

Kung Fu movie actor who also kickboxed, I would guess late 70's??

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FHksx50Mtik




The TCMA tries to use health, self-cultivation, inner peace, and performance as excuse to avoid combat.

I have never heard any boxer or wrestler ever talk about "self-cultivation". Why?

http://youtu.be/zSwhhDUwTHQ

Here's an interview with Chan Wai Man, the guy in the fight clip.

He talks about his Triad days and the difference between old school ways and modern gangsters. He also talks about philosophy, changing perspectives, and what's important in life.

[-N-]

"Fighting used to be "the norm"... but not any more"
`This is why the out look is not good.TCMA has lost the culture of fighting.
We have all the drills,the skills,the conditioning,the forms with all the techniques inside them,encyclopedias worth of power generation theory and combat strategy,yet something falls short putting it all together.
Not enough time is spent hitting and getting hit. I my TCMA training I think I must have crescent kicked my own hand thousands of times more than ever drilling it on a person.


Today how many people do and hour class or an hour and 15 min classes only two times a week???

But I also think it is the "culture".. an hour class in many CMA places these days is not the harsh training of the past.

It's what people make it to be.

You guys are talking about those that took the T out of TCMA.

Nothing wrong with TCMA.

The stuff that some people do nowadays, that might be a different story.

[Kellen Bassette]

"Fighting used to be "the norm"... but not any more"
`This is why the out look is not good.TCMA has lost the culture of fighting.
We have all the drills,the skills,the conditioning,the forms with all the techniques inside them,encyclopedias worth of power generation theory and combat strategy,yet something falls short putting it all together.
Not enough time is spent hitting and getting hit. I my TCMA training I think I must have crescent kicked my own hand thousands of times more than ever drilling it on a person.

Be the change you wish to see in the world.

[pazman]

"self cultivation" and Taoist philosophy has been around a long time in Chinese martial art...

by now, most evidence tells us the "boxers" in the Boxer Rebellion were more religious sect than real martial artists, martial arts was just their "con"

But this "con" grew and grew and grew... big question is WHY?

Perhaps you or bawang might have more insight into this, but I've always felt the turn to "spirituality" was similar to other cultures that felt threatened but had no means to defend themselves. Within a century, China went from being the most powerful country in the world and a regional hegemony to a country being cut up by foreign powers. China moved on but many aspects Chinese culture did not. The mysteries of Daoist alchemy mirror that of "traditional" gongfu...step-by-step up a ladder where you can only see a few rungs above you, but you've been promised heaven at the top. It's a system that easily abused.

[Lucas]

http://www.kungfucinema.com/guide/people/bad-to-the-bone-part-2-chan-wai-man
chan wai-man

[JamesC]

Chan wai man doesn't look too polished in that fight. Not that it mattered.

David, who would you bet on:
- boxer with only a little instruction but spars often with others
- boxer with a lot of instruction but rarely spars

To me shadowboxing = forms. I'm sure you've seen lots of guys that have decent form while shadowboxing and doing 4/6/8 counts etc, but look terrible when they are faced with an actual opponent.

[BigPandaBear]

If the epitome of CMA is ending up looking like a kickboxer, why don't we just take kickboxing to begin with?

[Frost]

If the epitome of CMA is ending up looking like a kickboxer, why don't we just take kickboxing to begin with?

i think the bigger question is if kung fu usd to look like kick boxing (basic kicks, punches, clinch work trips and throws) what made it move towards looking like dancing......

[David Jamieson]

The TCMA tries to use health, self-cultivation, inner peace, and performance as excuse to avoid combat.

I have never heard any boxer or wrestler ever talk about "self-cultivation". Why?

TCMA has synthesized self cultivation, chan(zen)-innerpeace and health within it's martial arts. It is unique in that sense. I don't think it's an excuse, it is a part of many systems.

it's not an excuse to "avoid" combat. An excuse to avoid combat is "no, I'm not into fighting" when someone asks you to fight. lol.

Boxer self cultivate through their art form. Their health, their well being and their ability to step up and win is dependent upon their self discipline. Each feeds the other.

You would be hard pressed to find a decent school that doesn't recognize that martial arts require self discipline, sacrifice etc and all of that is self cultivation.

All physical discipline that requires practice and time spent IS self cultivating and movement towards inner peace. IMNSHO. :)

[lkfmdc]

If the epitome of CMA is ending up looking like a kickboxer, why don't we just take kickboxing to begin with?

or maybe kung fu always looked like "kickboxing" and your idea of "kung fu" comes from movies and fantasies.....

[lkfmdc]

Chan wai man doesn't look too polished in that fight


Could he be better? YES
BUT, at least he was fighting....

This was the starting point for me, we were taught fighting and we were fighting, but we wanted to be better (well I wanted to be better, not all my class mates obviously)....

Back in the "old days" though, at least there was fighting....
In Taiwan, at Tang Shou Tao for example, they had all the Chi Kung, the Taoist philosophy, the forms, etc, but they also fought full contact

But the community didn't move forward from that point, it moved BACKWARD

Gene once suggested that national forms competitions and the influence of modern wushu started the trend, but we could discuss it even more :D

[LaRoux]

or maybe kung fu always looked like "kickboxing" and your idea of "kung fu" comes from movies and fantasies.....

Yeah, this sure looks like kickboxing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y5Z8Gpq-RUY&app=desktop

I guess someone else was living in movie and fantasy land also.

[GeneChing]

Gene once suggested that national forms competitions and the influence of modern wushu started the trend, but we could discuss it even more :D Forms competitions go way way back. You could even argue that the earliest documented examples of forms could be traced to 'sword dances' for which there is evidence that goes back millennia. The notion of martial performance through dance is quite pervasive in ancient culture, especially tribal cultures. It was a show of strength. Look. Our warriors can bust some bad ass moves. Don't mess with us.

What changed was turning it into sport. This is a trend we see arising in the wake of firearms throughout Asia and Europe. Now this is where wushu taolu becomes a significant factor (we won't discuss wushu sanda, as most people overlook that aspect of modern wushu anyway :o). A lot of people will point their fingers at wushu taolu with the ol' 'flowery fists, embroidered legs' accusation, but the key to remember here is that this accusation is old. As soon as the firearm arises, you start seeing criticisms of martial arts losing its fighting essence worldwide. There are rants against the Samurai, the Shaolin monks, and even fencing masters, that go back to the 16th century. The difference there might be print - no forum to rant on - but those complaints are nothing new. If anything, I think that it's just more exaggerated now. There is so much diversity that a crazy wide range of manifestations of martial arts is readily available at a touch of your keyboard. Sport has also become more formal than ever before (compare boxing rules back in the day to today, or even MMA rules a few decades ago to today). With any game, competitors seek advantages through loopholes in the rules. So its natural that any sport tightens up over time. Eventually the rules become the essence. Anyone who has competed in any serious sport knows this. So when you have a rule set for something like MMA, versus a rule set for something like modern wushu (both of which are still in their infancy in terms of rules, IMO), there's bound to be opposition. It's also bound to get highly specialized.

That being said, I don't think these complaints are all that new. Cosplay is new. Well, sort of. If I work hard enough at it, I could compare it to the complaints of frivolous Samurai helmets and how they felt it was degrading bushido.

[Kellen Bassette]

The notion of martial performance through dance is quite pervasive in ancient culture, especially tribal cultures. It was a show of strength. Look. Our warriors can bust some bad ass moves. Don't mess with us.


The idea of war dances is certainly not new, neither is the criticism of those that specialize in the dance over the fighting skill. I think what is more relatively, recent, is the inability to distinguish between the two.

[lkfmdc]

Sure, ritual dance goes back a long way in all societies. Some might even say Bagua circle walking is related to Taoist circle chanting....

Nor is criticism new of course, we have it back with General QI

But in NYC Chinatown in the 1980's, well we had guns (TRUST ME ON THAT!) and yet forms were not addressed the same way. A view of the old ESPY TV "masters' demo" tapes will confirm that

Also, for a long time ritual dance and even some "sport" was side by side with fighting....

You had the Kuoshu Lei Tai events in 1920's and 1930's, you had the ring fights in HK in 1970's and 1980's.... .early US sanshou had TCMA school participation for quite a while....

There is something a little more going on here than just that explanation

[lkfmdc]

we won't discuss wushu sanda, as most people overlook that aspect of modern wushu anyway :o).



most people say it isn't real kung fu anyway

[LaRoux]

"]
Interesting. Posting a clip from Child Beauty Pageant Dance Mom's with the Stars of Orange County and calling it kung fu wasn't exactly comedy gold the first time.

Why would you steal such a bad joke. . .?

Unless. . .

Because it highlights the essence of trying to pull techniques from forms. The only difference between doing it from a form and these kids' dancing routines is that the forms are labeled martial arts and the dancing is labeled dancing. Functionally, there's no difference.

[GeneChing]

There is something a little more going on here than just that explanation I'm not sure about he rest of the country, but MMA changed the governing laws in CA for full contact. We can do light contact and point sparring, but that was never a big thing for TCMA to my recollection. We used to do combined tournaments too, where an all-around champ had to to empty-hand forms, weapon forms and spar, but no longer. Now, if you want to do full contact, that's pretty much all you'll be able to afford to do. That's the fallout of sport fighting.

As for the fallout of sport wushu (taolu), I'd venture to say that made CMA more family friendly. I mean, in TCMA, there was always your Kung Fu siblings, but with modern taolu, its classes of rugrats doing the after-school programs. For a lot of non-martial arts families, the notion of forms - of non-contact - is very appealing.



most people say it isn't real kung fu anyway Everyone has their own idea of what real Kung Fu is, right? Real Kung Fu is my Kung Fu. Yours is fake. :rolleyes:

[lkfmdc]

I'm not sure about he rest of the country, but MMA changed the governing laws in CA for full contact. We can do light contact and point sparring, but that was never a big thing for TCMA to my recollection. We used to do combined tournaments too, where an all-around champ had to to empty-hand forms, weapon forms and spar, but no longer. Now, if you want to do full contact, that's pretty much all you'll be able to afford to do. That's the fallout of sport fighting.



That doesn't account for the late 1990's when the sanshou nationals have zero TCMA participation.... what you cite means it would be very hard to revive, but doesn't account for the original shift (IMHO)

[mickey]

Greetings,

Regarding the original links:

The monkey practitioner studied Thai boxing. It kept popping up in his posture and he kept having to shake it off.

Chai Wai Man studied Western boxing. He was never ashamed to admit it.

Both men went beyond style to improve themselves. I do not know if it can be said that they improved their styles.

mickey

[lkfmdc]

Real Kung Fu is my Kung Fu. Yours is fake. :rolleyes:

OF COURSE MY KUNG FU IS FAKE! Haven't you been paying attention? ;)

[gunbeatskroty]

To me shadowboxing = forms. I'm sure you've seen lots of guys that have decent form while shadowboxing and doing 4/6/8 counts etc, but look terrible when they are faced with an actual opponent.

Shadowboxing is more than forms as it mimics how the Boxer will actually fight. While TMA form can be partially this, but a lot of it isn't. There seems to be lots and lots of flowery air drawings and such, designed to look pretty but should get you whooped in a real fight.

[LaRoux]

Shadowboxing is more than forms as it mimics how the Boxer will actually fight. While TMA form can be partially this, but a lot of it isn't. There seems to be lots and lots of flowery air drawings and such, designed to look pretty but should get you whooped in a real fight.

Shadow boxing is a dynamic set of of moves and techniques that are individual to the practitioner and come from his actual experiences with fighting.

Forms are set sequences of moves that are the same for everyone performing that form and come from what someone thinks fighting is supposed to be like.

Shadow boxing is alive and relevant to application because it comes from application. Forms are dead and irrelevant to application because they come from what someone somewhere in the past thought fighting was supposed to be like.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Forms were developed for a mired of purposes including cataloging techniques and training moves that the founder of the form found that worked for him and perhaps his students.
Forms were never meant to be "etched in stone" and we can see that in how a teacher may have taught the same form in different ways to different students at different times.

Forms were meant to be "deconstructed" and the "bits and pieces" used in combat and trained more like "shadow boxing" than "performance".

Yes, something got lost in the translation from fighting systems to "whatever" MA are being trained for today and were marketed as in the past/currently.

[madhusudan]

Forms were meant to be "deconstructed" and the "bits and pieces" used in combat and trained more like "shadow boxing" than "performance".

It's funny that this needs to be said, but it does.

I showed a friend into MMA a palm set. His response was, "Yeah, but what if the fight doesn't go down that exact way?" This was, in his view, the ripest wisdom and a complete destruction of what I was doing.

To me it's a collection of techniques, with perhaps some of them being combinations. You can pretty much figure out which ones if you practice it for a while. It really doesn't even take that much effort.

On a side note, thanks to Bawang for the new sig. I've been waiting patiently in horse stance for a drop of nectar from your lexical fountain, and have finally been rewarded.

[David Jamieson]

Shadow boxing is a dynamic set of of moves and techniques that are individual to the practitioner and come from his actual experiences with fighting.

Forms are set sequences of moves that are the same for everyone performing that form and come from what someone thinks fighting is supposed to be like.

Shadow boxing is alive and relevant to application because it comes from application. Forms are dead and irrelevant to application because they come from what someone somewhere in the past thought fighting was supposed to be like.


shadow boxing is muscle memory and keep your hands up while keeping your heart rate and breathing rate up. it's not some mystical thing and it isn't a form. It drills in a solo fashion all the attributes an sets up the person doing it to understand stability, balance and correct structure of technique whilst in motion.

[gunbeatskroty]

Shadow boxing is a dynamic set of of moves and techniques that are individual to the practitioner and come from his actual experiences with fighting.

Forms are set sequences of moves that are the same for everyone performing that form and come from what someone thinks fighting is supposed to be like.

Shadow boxing is alive and relevant to application because it comes from application. Forms are dead and irrelevant to application because they come from what someone somewhere in the past thought fighting was supposed to be like.

Well said.

[gunbeatskroty]

Yes, something got lost in the translation from fighting systems to "whatever" MA are being trained for today and were marketed as in the past/currently.

That's a very good point as flashy, flowery forms adds a certain "pizazz" to whatever Kung-Fu style is being taught by whichever school.....more marketing than sound, fight techniques. I remember watching Run Run Shaw Kung-Fu movies in the theaters as a kid and really thought they was the greatest thing ever....until some kid punched me in the face for real one day in school and I didn't know what to do. Still remember it like it was yesterday.

[David Jamieson]

That's a very good point as flashy, flowery forms adds a certain "pizazz" to whatever Kung-Fu style is being taught by whichever school.....more marketing than sound, fight techniques. I remember watching Run Run Shaw Kung-Fu movies in the theaters as a kid and really thought they was the greatest thing ever....until some kid punched me in the face for real one day in school and I didn't know what to do. Still remember it like it was yesterday.

Did you just blame chop sockey movies for getting punched in the face in school?

:p lol

[bawang]

Did you just blame chop sockey movies for getting punched in the face in school?

:p lol

I got punched in the face in school for training "legitimate kung fu".

[David Jamieson]

I got punched in the face in school for training "legitimate kung fu".

consider it part of your training.
Also remember that a man who hasn't been punched in the face can't be trusted. :p

[bawang]

consider it part of your training.
Also remember that a man who hasn't been punched in the face can't be trusted. :p

I have learned that MY FACE IS MY SHIELD, MY HAIR IS MY SWORD

[bawang]

laroux criticizes forms for being a drill when the form is a drill


ok

[YouKnowWho]

The form is a set of drills. You don't train form, you only train drills. Here is a drill that you can take it out of Tantui and train it with partner.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xNlPktNreXM&feature=youtu.be

[lkfmdc]

Form keeps you busy
It makes you do movements over and over

It teaches you copy movement

It also catalogues the style

but it is probably about 5% of total package

[YouKnowWho]

If you can create a 20 moves form that you use the

- 1st move to set up your 2nd move,
- 2nd move to set up your 3rd move,
- ...,
- 19th move to set up your 20th move,

you are very good. The best one that I can come up are only 12 moves. Does anybody like to give it a try?

[gunbeatskroty]

Yeah, but you never studied or practiced. You watched movies. You don't think skill is transmitted by osmosis I hope. Because getting a Fu Jao to the neck is pretty whack too. Or an Ying Jao to the inguinal crease...that's just nasty.

I did train Shaolin Hung Fut Kung Fu for a little bit. They had a fight team there too, that was probably Sanda. It didn't teach me much. The master/owner was a great guy and I knew him for a long time beforehand, but all I did was forms for a long time. This was when I was young.

Nowadays, I do drop in to different Kung-Fu schools to spar. They only allow tap to light sparring only though. They want me to also do their forms, but I don't because it a lot of stuff to learn and I'm only interested in getting better at fighting. I try to be respectful and say that it would mess with my current MT stance.

[gunbeatskroty]

laroux criticizes forms for being a drill when the form is a drill


ok


Yea, but while you're doing your pretty forms, I'm kicking the shizzle out of pads to get stronger, faster, more precise, etc.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oc7sM0oQKa0

Ok, not this fast (37 sec) nor this powerful, but I'd like to get there soon.

[Faux Newbie]

Shadow boxing is a dynamic set of of moves and techniques that are individual to the practitioner and come from his actual experiences with fighting.

Forms are set sequences of moves that are the same for everyone performing that form and come from what someone thinks fighting is supposed to be like.

Shadow boxing is alive and relevant to application because it comes from application. Forms are dead and irrelevant to application because they come from what someone somewhere in the past thought fighting was supposed to be like.

I know boxers, and they do not start shadow boxing by applying what they do in fighting, they are given the tools and practice them in shadow boxing. They still follow the form of the move, with influences based on what general goals they apply in fighting after they know the basic form of the techniques. Additionally, only the good boxers do it worth a crap, just like in anything.

That said, form, as in sets, is usually entirely different than shadow boxing. I've seen a few crossovers, like one zhaobao set I saw where each technique is not followed by another technique, but by returning to a natural stance, but this is still only overlap, not the same as shadowboxing, because shadowboxing places technique in the larger context of natural footwork and includes improvisation from the start, not set pattern where one move almost always follows another.

Form is not meant to be shadowboxing, and, if taken as such, leads bad places. Say your form has only two kicks, and thirty other techniques. If that is how you shadow box, the two kicks that are supposed to be essential to the method are hardly practiced in that context.

Additionally, shadow boxing helps form by placing moves in different contexts and allowing you to safely learn to efficiently apply them from those different contexts, without having to make up a nine hour form that applies all variables once. By doing so, one gains a deeper understanding of the mechanics, and a more natural one.

If this were Chinese Buddhism, form(of techniques and sets) and experience would be teachings, shadow boxing would be enaction. The goal would be fixity, the ability to, with a cool head, apply without consideration of what you are applying. To pursue a cool head without knowledge of method would be limited, to have knowledge of method without enaction would be limited, to enact without a cool head, having to think about what you are doing, would be limited, each will have yields, but they will be limited. Shadow boxing is, imo, essential to this, but it is not as you describe (nor will you find a single important boxing manual that says it is) solely the application of what you learn in fighting, the basis begins and remains based around ideas of technique that are learned from more than sparring experience, and even those experiences will be interpreted around previous bodies of knowledge unless you are choosing to reinvent the wheel, which is fine, but not necessarily a good summation of shadow boxing from any style I'm familiar with.

[Kellen Bassette]

I think the interesting thing about chinese martial arts are the forms and conditioning.

But as for realism and superiority western martial arts are the best. The basic combination set of punches from the boxing are superior to chinese martial arts. They are scientifically more powerful than the punches of kung fu, which are awkwardly thrown from the kung fu fighting stance. The guard is often dropped in kung fu (crazy), and the hands are open (like anyone is going to do that in a real fight).

It is humorous the way kung fu fighters adopt a more western boxing guard and fighting style in the ring. Someone said that Bruce Lee had stated that drunken boxing was the elite style of kung fu because of the duck and weave. Another useful defense tactic, that might or might not be used in kung fu.

And when it comes to grappling, greco-roman wrestling is the best. It's looks superior when they pick opponents up and slam them to the ground. Judo or jiu jitsu plays with the opponents lapel.

It's been more or less established that the best innovations from the east are the thigh kick and reverse punch.

sighhhhhhhhhhhh

[sanjuro_ronin]

yeah I know a few chinese that have demonstrated some of their advanced techniques like fa jing to me. From what I saw it's extremely complicated to throw a fajing punch, even though it is extremely powerful. More powerful than boxing.

Western martial arts dominate the mixed martial arts world for a reason. Get used to it, they aren't ineffective. So much of kung fu is still shrouded in secrecy, it is well known.

Chinese masters throw extremely powerful punches, but they aren't that easy to replicate. Personally I would prefer tiger to boxing but its not going to be.

A lot of people overlook greco-roman wrestling when it is extremely powerful.

Boxing strikes are the most natural and "easy" to learn and execute under pressure.
That is why they are so popular and effective.

That said, I have fought and sparred with very advanced boxers and they have as much "fajing" as TCMA that are well versed in fajing.

IMO, strikers that continue to train the right way and regularly all "get there" eventually, they just take different paths.

[Kellen Bassette]

I agree with nothing!!

:D I expected as much.....



Take a look at the grappling video I put up of one of Ross's training brothers. Do you believe that is more advanced then Greco-roman wrestling????



This is basic chi na theory....this has nothing to do with Greco-Roman...

[Kellen Bassette]

Kellen,

I lump grappling all in one group. IMO, it is all a form of wrestling.

So do I....and the joint lock escape he was showing has nothing to do with Greco-Roman take downs.

Wrestling is basically wrestling. The different disciplines have different training method and flavors, but a whole lot of overlap and a whole lot in common.

[MightyB]

You guys haven't figured it out yet. Martial arts are all about mitigating risk while adding surprise.

[MightyB]

http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m5il2hhg6i1qdfjhdo1_500.jpg

[MightyB]

That picture is really out of context without the whole ZZ Top / dirty beard discussion that preceded it. What happened to all the posts?

[Kellen Bassette]

That picture is really out of context without the whole ZZ Top / dirty beard discussion that preceded it. What happened to all the posts?

Sabotage!!!! Some naked faced child of the '70's took down our comments on illustrious facial hair and the true history of that decade!!! :mad::mad::mad:

This is a black day on the forum for sure....

EDIT: I see Spiked's quotes are gone...I wonder if he met some gruesome end at the hands of an angry mod, or if he has crawled back into the shadows, erasing his tracks,in an attempt to reinvent himself and return to punish us all...

[Faux Newbie]

I had revealed too much. I was told not to teach the gwailou. There will be a challenge match that will result in no less then three improbable stories about what happened. As my opponent will do Wing Chun, they will decide that to use disdain for the opinions of others would be too deadly for the fight, and so will rely entirely on random chinese words followed with 'sao'.

[David Jamieson]

Some of you need to resist the urge to pee all over everyone else.
All pee stains will be removed from the pool, so to speak. IE; if you quoted something someone said and what they said was trolling, baiting, badgering, bullying, rude, racist, etc then your post went with it.

No offense, but this thread was a wreck, I cleaned it up and reopened it.
If it get's closed again, you will know why.
If you are trying to build a post count. Don't.
:p

[Faux Newbie]

Here are some "ring fights" from Hong Kong featuring people form TCMA background

Dai Sing Pek Gwa 1983

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qm5YPpVnM6c

Kung Fu movie actor who also kickboxed, I would guess late 70's??

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FHksx50Mtik

There are a lot of things we can say about these clips, like
1. Wow, kung fu guys fighting
2. "kickboxing rules" without real knees, elbows, clinch or even throws
3. but definitely NOt fake fights... these are real

My perspective, you can improve the performances here, but it is at least fighting, it is an excellent start

But from my perspective TCMA has not improved from here, they have gone in opposite direction....

Fighting used to be "the norm"... but not any more

Returning this to the beginning.

I think one of the problems is that the visible market is related to the competitions, and forms and drills often are the center of that. You used to see more application related material, but still not often.

Performance in those used to be the way for prospective teachers to further their name.

Plus, you have a whole crowd who will attack anything they see as being less traditional than them, tradition almost always defined as 'doing what we weren't doing 150 years ago,' but I digress.

I don't have a problem with the forms competitions and those who like them, but those taking a different route end up dealing with both tma nuts and mma nuts, because there has never been an activity so focused on validation of self through nothing more than looking for potentially worse people than martial arts.

It's easier to say "you suck" than to not suck. But if you do cma AND like to train for fighting, you clearly are going to get it from all directions regardless of performance.

To top it off, the degree that new information is avoided is anathema to ring sports. I've seen plenty of sifus prepare their students for fights by push ups, hand stands, and form, but no drilling, no familiarity with opponent's, etc. When the student loses, that usually ends that sifu's 'fight program'.

And plenty of tma competitions with fight rules that rule out anyone really serious.

[lkfmdc]

I've seen plenty of sifus prepare their students for fights by push ups, hand stands, and form, but no drilling, no familiarity with opponent's, etc. When the student loses, that usually ends that sifu's 'fight program'.



Well, I hate to do this, but... nah, I don't hate to do this :D

The US Wushu Union was set up to counter act the USA WKF and had one event with sanshou before it folded up and died... At that event a Chinese instructor in monk robes (despite NOT being a monk mind you) put his students in the competition...

The students were friendly enough, not hard feelings. One of my guys' KO'ed one of them in under a minute... we actually felt bad for the guy and talked to him afterwards

They had NEVER sparred. They had done basically forms and "one steps" and had been told that their "real Shaolin" would mean they would win their fights.

A VERY HARSH WAKE UP CALL

One wonders, did they go home, cancel their memberships and find another placed to train?

Or did they go on doing what they were doing and tried to forget the tournament?

Sadly, I suspect most did the latter....

[Faux Newbie]

I watched a group of fighters from one kung fu school prepare for an event. The only drill I saw them do that involved them hitting anything was someone holding a kicking shield, and them wailing on it without breaking for 100 strikes, then the next person. Not one of them developed entering skills, not one of them had the timing and distance to use their striking in the actual fights. As they hit the shield, they'd invariably end up leaning into it, not that they even got to that bad habit in their fights.

Again, because outside info, like how to use training tools, is apparently bad.

[lkfmdc]

Again, because outside info, like how to use training tools, is apparently bad.

Chan Tai San never had issues with me training with others, in fact he gave me letters of introduction to a few

I take my more advanced students to train with others people all the time

The only thing you have to fear is if you are blowing smoke up people's butts

My students say that training with others not only enriched what they have already learned, it CONFIRMS it for them....

[MightyB]

Some of you need to resist the urge to pee all over everyone else.
All pee stains will be removed from the pool, so to speak. IE; if you quoted something someone said and what they said was trolling, baiting, badgering, bullying, rude, racist, etc then your post went with it.

No offense, but this thread was a wreck, I cleaned it up and reopened it.
If it get's closed again, you will know why.
If you are trying to build a post count. Don't.
:p

You deleted many nuggets of fecal wisdom that we had to share!!! There were pics and everything! And how often does ZZtop enter into a forum discussion?

[MightyB]

Oh yeah... and you deleted my post that was trying to get this wreck back on topic.

---

I doubt that TCMA looked like San Shou - if anything, it probably resembled Japanese Ju Jitsu.

[lkfmdc]

I doubt that TCMA looked like San Shou - if anything, it probably resembled Japanese Ju Jitsu.

it actually probably DID look like those awkward and painful to watch fight scenes in the original kung fu TV series

[Faux Newbie]

Chan Tai San never had issues with me training with others, in fact he gave me letters of introduction to a few

I take my more advanced students to train with others people all the time

The only thing you have to fear is if you are blowing smoke up people's butts

My students say that training with others not only enriched what they have already learned, it CONFIRMS it for them....

Experience has taught me that martial arts without reality is boring.

[MightyB]

it actually probably DID look like those awkward and painful to watch fight scenes in the original kung fu TV series

No way - they were armed, sometimes in armor, sometimes not originally

I think we have to set a time frame.

[Faux Newbie]

Classical references to sword work often allude to light footwork as being the key. Not deep stances.

[MightyB]

It could be worse... they could have looked like those awful fight scenes in the Circle of Iron. :eek:

[MightyB]

Classical references to sword work often allude to light footwork as being the key. Not deep stances.

yeah... so do a sword form (other than tai chi). Fast footwork is the norm.

[lkfmdc]

It could be worse... they could have looked like those awful fight scenes in the Circle of Iron. :eek:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uPi23unabtM

[Iron_Eagle_76]

In Soviet Russia,

Kung Fu fights you!!!

http://bransontraveloffice.com/wp-content/uploads/yakov-smirnoff-show-branson8.jpg

[lkfmdc]

In Soviet Russia,

Kung Fu fights you!!!

http://bransontraveloffice.com/wp-content/uploads/yakov-smirnoff-show-branson8.jpg

to this I respond with http://www.sadanduseless.com/2013/11/russian-dating-sites/

you simply must click this link

[MightyB]

If lkfmdc's preview didn't sell it enough:

Here's the whole movie: http://www.snagfilms.com/films/title/circle_of_iron

[MightyB]

to this I respond with http://www.sadanduseless.com/2013/11/russian-dating-sites/

you simply must click this link

that caused a belly laugh!

[lkfmdc]

"the first martial arts fantasy film"

and the last, thank G'd

[Iron_Eagle_76]

to this I respond with http://www.sadanduseless.com/2013/11/russian-dating-sites/

you simply must click this link

Wow, that is sad............yet oddly compelling!!;)

[Faux Newbie]

yeah... so do a sword form (other than tai chi). Fast footwork is the norm.

Fast and light are two different things, both of which are stressed by traditional sources.

Additionally, the tai ji jian is not particularly different than most kung fu straight sword sets. In fact, most kung fu weapons sets are variations on the same sets.

And most styles in the modern era emphasize depth of stance more than the traditional approach seems to have.

[lkfmdc]

Additionally, the tai ji jian is not particularly different than most kung fu straight sword sets. In fact, most kung fu weapons sets are variations on the same sets.



weapons are seldom "stylistic" and when they are it is usually very 'forced" and artificial

[Faux Newbie]

What often gets me in regards to depth of stance is the fact that virtually all the older drawings of techniques and their applications only depict deep stance where it serves a purpose, but, in the modern era, many people do everything in a deep stance, confusing it with a tradition, when the traditional sources clearly show something else.

I think some deep stance forms are amazing to watch, but I think the old adage of training low but fighting high does not work. You have to train how you use it, as well. Never mind the unusually wide base this encourages in some lines, which totally doesn't translate well when used from a higher base without training this way.

If form is your main conduit for fighting, and you don't do the form the way you would fight with it, it doesn't matter that you know this, you will not have the sensitivity to use it on your own. Never mind that many train bridge range and never really train sensitivity in the ranges before and after it.

[Dale Dugas]

Great videos on facebook brother.

Indepth explanations of whole body power used in fighting.

Loved the short ging video.

[lkfmdc]

Great videos on facebook brother.

Indepth explanations of whole body power used in fighting.

Loved the short ging video.

I am trying to push CMA forward, others are in the back pulling it backward...

[MightyB]

What often gets me in regards to depth of stance is the fact that virtually all the older drawings of techniques and their applications only depict deep stance where it serves a purpose, but, in the modern era, many people do everything in a deep stance, confusing it with a tradition, when the traditional sources clearly show something else.

I think some deep stance forms are amazing to watch, but I think the old adage of training low but fighting high does not work. You have to train how you use it, as well. Never mind the unusually wide base this encourages in some lines, which totally doesn't translate well when used from a higher base without training this way.

If form is your main conduit for fighting, and you don't do the form the way you would fight with it, it doesn't matter that you know this, you will not have the sensitivity to use it on your own. Never mind that many train bridge range and never really train sensitivity in the ranges before and after it.

Just putting this out there... for Gene of course - but this is a low stance.
http://cdn.lightgalleries.net/4bd5ec080bf97/images/olympics_london_fencing_lunge-1.jpg

[Faux Newbie]

And it's also a lunge. Lunges are deep, but other footwork in fencing is not.

[MightyB]

What kung fu you do that's all deep?

[Dale Dugas]

Screw all the trolls.

Back to those that matter.

Dave, I am there with you.

I have always taught in a similar manner those I do not teach San Da.

TCMA is not about Qi Balls and other BS nonsense.

Be well.

[Faux Newbie]

What kung fu you do that's all deep?

I've done some in the past that was. Though it wasn't meant to be.

The fact is, if you watch most forms competitions, most seek depth of stance and wideness of stance as a show of strength, and this comes from the teachers. The exceptions are there, of course, but they are exceptions.

Chen style is one example. I know a line that uses deep narrow stances, deep wide stances, and natural height stances.

And then I know a million lines that are always in deep stance, the deeper the better, and often, the wider the better, regardless of the movement.

[MightyB]

I've done some in the past that was. Though it wasn't meant to be.

The fact is, if you watch most forms competitions, most seek depth of stance and wideness of stance as a show of strength, and this comes from the teachers. The exceptions are there, of course, but they are exceptions.

I've since given up on trying to over-analyze kung fu. It is what it is - doesn't mean I agree with everything that I see or have been taught, but I still find value in learning more of it.

I think that it should be played with fast hands like a boxer, sparring whenever possible, and I like throws - so that's how I play it.

I think that's the key - figuring out what works for you personally, and then training in a manner that's consistent with what works for you and not trying to force something unnatural.

[Faux Newbie]

I've since given up on trying to over-analyze kung fu. It is what it is - doesn't mean I agree with everything that I see or have been taught, but I still find value in learning more of it.

I think that it should be played with fast hands like a boxer, sparring whenever possible, and I like throws - so that's how I play it.

I think that's the key - figuring out what works for you personally, and then training in a manner that's consistent with what works for you and not trying to force something unnatural.

Oh, I agree. However, I've seen enough older sources to know that what is popular now is not an accurate portrayal of an older tradition, and often has been shaped by competition goals and such that place a higher value in dramatic elements of solo performance than in usage.

[Faux Newbie]

Additionally, as a teacher, I have a responsibility to teach. If I have people do push hands, and not work the outside range, that push hands is not useful to them. If I teach things that are contrary to what the style is clearly about in fighting, I do them a disservice. Too many sifus feel entitled to teach because someone 'above' them said they can, not because they actually have a strong working knowledge of how to use their style's methods. I don't want that to be me.

[YouKnowWho]

training low but fighting high does not work. You have to train how you use it,
The low stance training is to separate "man" from "boy".

The low stance training is to push your body to the limit. I have always believed that you train just like you fight. But if you don't push yourself hard enough, you can only be on an average level, and you will not be able to move yourself to much higher level.

If you can hold on your opponent's waist belt and throw him over your head (you have to sink down very low), when you grab on your opponent's arm, you can easily throw him over your head.

If you can do the following drill. You will have no problem to escape your leg when your opponent attack your leg.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TKCSiZs7RYI

If you can walk in duck walking in fast speed, you will be able to move fast in any stances.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-z1jNVfy-GI

[Faux Newbie]

The low stance training is the separation between "man" and "boy".

The low stance training is to push your body to the limit. I have always believed that you train just like you fight. But if you don't push yourself hard enough, you can only be on an average level, and you will not be able to move yourself to much higher level.

If you can hold on your opponent's waist belt and throw him over your head (you have to sink very low), when you grab on your opponent's arm, you can easily throw him over your head.

If you can do the following drill. You will have no problem to escape your leg when your opponent attack your leg.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TKCSiZs7RYI

I agree that low helps some things, but if you train striking exclusively low, and then fight, I have not seen this work.


If you can walk in duck walking in fast speed, you will be able to move fast in any stances.

Muscular strength is important, but beyond that, if one doesn't have good technique in footwork, they will still be slower than someone who does.

I am not criticizing deep stances for a purpose, but to achieve that purpose, you still need to do moves in their natural stance a lot.

[Faux Newbie]

To clarify. Moving fast in striking AND being aware of what an opponent does has more to do with economy of motion and good ability to read the opponent than strength. If you cannot read the opponent, and always react at the last moment, your footwork will lumber compared to them regardless of your strength. If your economy of motion is poor, obviously this is an issue as well.

Working low stance does not solve either issue. Sparring in low stance with others who do so does not either, as speed is relatively slow.

Leg strength is important, but does not solve these problems. Light footwork comes from method, knowing efficient ways to transfer weight and knowing how to read opponents. Strong legs alone are just strong legs.

[David Jamieson]

why bench press 200lbs?

When are you gonna need to lift 200 lbs?

when you bench press mostly. :p

[sanjuro_ronin]

I used to do low stance work, good solid work.
I am talking with a weight vest even and sometimes a partner on my shoulders.
I thought that was real tough.
Then a did a 20 rep squat program and died.
For those of you that don't know, a 20 rep squat set is where, after you warm up for a couple of sets, you do 20 reps with a weight that you can only do for 10 reps.
Yes, you heard me.
Then you collapse, puke, crap yourself and die.

Lots of things seem tough, until you do tougher.

[sanjuro_ronin]

why bench press 200lbs?

When are you gonna need to lift 200 lbs?

when you bench press mostly. :p

Well, if you are into fat chicks...:D

[YouKnowWho]

I agree that low helps some things, but if you train striking exclusively low, and then fight, I have not seen this work.

I didn't know you were talking about "striking art" only. Since most striking art has throwing skill "hidden" in it, their low stance training may be the same as the "throwing art".

I once spared with a Karate guy. I dropped in a very low fighting stance. My opponent didn't know how to attack me since he was good in high kicks. After that sparring, he refused to spar with me. He made a comment, "You Kung Fu guys just stand too low."

[YouKnowWho]

To clarify. Moving fast in striking AND being aware of what an opponent does has more to do with economy of motion and good ability to read the opponent than strength. If you cannot read the opponent, and always react at the last moment, your footwork will lumber compared to them regardless of your strength. If your economy of motion is poor, obviously this is an issue as well.

Working low stance does not solve either issue. Sparring in low stance with others who do so does not either, as speed is relatively slow.

Leg strength is important, but does not solve these problems. Light footwork comes from method, knowing efficient ways to transfer weight and knowing how to read opponents. Strong legs alone are just strong legs.

You are talking about combat "development" and "testing". I'm talking about combat "enhancement". Both are needed and there is no argument on that.

Here is my personal experience. I don't do traditional forms any more (I know more than 50 forms). I have replaced it by my combo drills training. One day I suddenly felt something was wrong. I could train my combo drills for 30 minutes none-stop but I don't felt tired at all. When I trained forms, I could get tired in 20 minutes non-stop training. I then realized that since my combo drills were the same as my combat application, I didn't sink low enough, and my body didn't turn to the maximum. I then modified my combo drills to be much lower, more turn, more extension, more ...

[Faux Newbie]

I didn't know you were talking about "striking art" only. Since most striking art has throwing skill "hidden" in it, their low stance training may be the same as the "throwing art".

I once spared with a Karate guy. I dropped in a very low fighting stance. My opponent didn't know how to attack me since he was good in high kicks. After that sparring, he refused to spar with me. He made a comment, "You Kung Fu guys just stand too low."

LOL!

We don't have to talk striking exclusively, since a lot of kung fu is both.

I think stance strength is important, especially for throwing.

I also think speed for footwork in striking is based more on reading your opponent and efficiency of motion.

That said, in striking, even if you are good at reading an opponent, you can be fooled, and will need all the leg strength you can use to redirect and make up for the mistake.

That said, even in throwing, especially in throwing, there are times where setting up your opponent will depend more on reading their movements and efficiently moving with the slightest use of strength.

[Faux Newbie]

You are talking about combat "development" and "testing". I'm talking about combat "enhancement". You have to go through "develop" and "test" stages before you can take the "enhance" stage. There is no argument on that.

I don't do traditional forms any more (I know more than 50 forms). I have replaced it by my combo drills training. One day I suddenly felt something was wrong. I could train my combo drills for 30 minutes none-stop but I don't felt tired at all. When I trained forms, I could feel tired in 20 minutes non-stop training. I then realized that since my combo drills were the same as my combat application, I didn't sink low enough, and my body didn't turn to the maximum. I then modified my combo drills to be much lower, more turn, more extension, more ...

I follow you. For me, I tried to get around this when I focused more combo drills by often trying to fit in ankle pics from my style and other moves that require the lowest stances. In push hands, we called these "dropsies", at least every third move had to be this kind of move.

This way, if I want the leg workout, it's there, without making other aspects that shouldn't be carried out low in combat done differently for the sake of my workout. Plus, instead of always being low, a premium is placed on getting low quickly.

[YouKnowWho]

For me, I tried to get around this when I focused more combo drills by often trying to fit in ankle pics from my style and other moves that require the lowest stances.

The way that I modified my combat drills (use kick, punch to set up throw) is I always image that I'll smash the back of my opponent's head onto the hard ground. This way I have to force my hand to touch the ground which is some extra challenge that I didn't have before.

Here is an example.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KTF8FbrZWAk&feature=youtu.be

[Faux Newbie]

The way that I modified my combat drills (use kick, punch to set up throw) is I always image that I'll smash the back of my opponent's head onto the hard ground. This way I have to force my hand to touch the ground which is some extra challenge that I didn't have before.

I will definitely remember that for certain moves! Thanks!

[Faux Newbie]

Here is an example.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KTF8FbrZWAk&feature=youtu.be

I actually do this with this same move, but I am definitely going to start focusing more on the stance in throws in combos. Again, thanks!

[Faux Newbie]

Then you collapse, puke, crap yourself and die.



At least you die relieved.

[TenTigers]

"the first martial arts fantasy film"

and the last, thank G'd
you left out, "Gymkata."

[Dale Dugas]

Rik,

I owe you a few beers for that one.

Gymkata..........

OMFG.

[-N-]

Nice Chinese influence seen in Dong Wen Fei's moves.

Lost by decision, but still did well against Buakaw.

http://youtu.be/IlcO0nse5iU

[mickey]

Greetings,

-N-,

Not to take anything away from Dong Wen Fei, Buakaw looked like he was not well. As if he had some kind of electrolyte problem. Diarrhea can do that to you. He is usually incredibly dominating. Strangely, he was looking to hold on. If my observations are on point, he should be more aware of his sources.

Interesting fight.


mickey

[-N-]

He is usually incredibly dominating.

Yep. I was wondering about that when I saw this fight.

[Kellen Bassette]

Nice Chinese influence seen in Dong Wen Fei's moves.

Lost by decision, but still did well against Buakaw.

http://youtu.be/IlcO0nse5iU

No shame in losing to Buakaw....