Boxing vs. Kung-Fu and other Asian MA's

[gunbeatskroty]

My base is Muay Thai + Muay Thai and BJJ if it goes to the ground. One of my interests is to spar vs. other styles to pickup different techniques that I can use vs. Muay Thai and mainstream MMA in general. Once in a while, we would get someone from other styles training in our MT class. But they usually get clobbered in the hands dept. or when clinched.

Versus Kung-Fu, I get hit from many angles, and at times...by both open palms almost at the same time. Sometimes they slap me like 4-6x machinegun slaps while I'm covered. Maybe because it's only light sparring allowed that the K-F can risk hitting me like this as it can't be a good idea at full power sparring. Some kicks are very high, loopy and comes out of nowhere, which does catch me off guard. My hands stay up really high vs. K-F to guard against these. The MT "cross shield" works well against straight kicks at all levels. K-F movement is very good side to side and circular, trying not to go straight back. What works vs. K-F is for me to pressure fight with my Boxing and not give K-F space to set up those wild kicks. I still get hit sometimes with a crescent kick to the head from punching range. It doesn't hurt, and he's not holding back as you really can't pull the power of that kick too much while under the stress of being chased and cut off constantly almost, by me. I keep it at jab range to almost hook range almost at all times and spamming a ton of jabs (30-50 per round) while bobbing & weaving forward with hand combos. When I start clinch fighting, it's usually very bad for the K-F. I'm not throwing hard knees, just taps....but I am clinching very hard and yanking his head (driving) to one side while in the MT Plum, then 1-2 knees to the face then driving opposite direction, knees...repeat. It's very easy to get the full MT clinch as K-F doesn't seem to know how to address it. They usually tell me that I'm not allowed to clinch anymore.

My main avoidance is to not get kicked at the weird angles that I'm not used to. This pressure fighting with Western Boxing works especially well against TKD where they really need space to setup their kicking combos, and most deadly is probably the spinning back kick counter which works really well against MT. Another variation of the back kick is the horse kick which I think is better. And TKD's hand strikes are usually terrible. The same strategy also seems to work well against Karate who also likes to keep distance to setup kicks and don't seem to like in-fighting too much.

Oddly enough, against pure Muay Thai, I would do the same to avoid trading kicks to the leg. I don't like standing there and trade punishment until one gives like it's usually done in MT. I stay just a little ****her though to avoid clinch fighting and med to long range knees. I don't play the clinch game vs. other MT's neither (only when I have to). Just spamming jabs again, looking for that opening for power punches.

Against pure Boxers though, I would stay out of punching range and just low leg kick their lead leg all day while circling. Only engage when that leg is hurt. I don't box against pure Boxers. Although it's very rare for me to find a pure Boxer that would agree to spar with kicks.

It seems like many of the Asian MA's are weak in the boxing dept. And as long as a Boxer knows how to address kicks, knees and clinch...like not dipping too low to get kneed in the face and especially train to shield kicks, square out, catch, etc. I think Boxers can do extremely well against chopsocky. Once you kick a Boxer, you're off balance and he can return with 3-4 punches before you can reset and kick him again. But Boxing alone is bad news vs. kicks:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EDjE4BywrE4

[Snipsky]

what's your point?

[Pete]

^ what he said :confused:

[Kellen Bassette]

My base is Muay Thai + Muay Thai and BJJ if it goes to the ground. One of my interests is to spar vs. other styles to pickup different techniques that I can use vs. Muay Thai and mainstream MMA in general. Once in a while, we would get someone from other styles training in our MT class.


Have you adopted the side thrust kick? It always baffles that Nak Muay rarely employ this powerful technique. Some Thai Boxers have picked it up and include it in their arsenal, but generally it is not taught or used in MT. (Side teep is similar, superficially, but is employing different mechanics and different intent than a thrusting side kick with the heel.)

I find it works well against Thai stylists, it is great for intercepting punches, or to use as an attack with a hand feint. One of my favorites is to feint high with a wide loopy hook, to bait the hands higher and stick the kick into the ribs or solar plexus.

I also find, in general, the fighting techniques of northern Gong Fu styles and Muay Thai to compliment each other nicely.



When I start clinch fighting, it's usually very bad for the K-F. I'm not throwing hard knees, just taps....but I am clinching very hard and yanking his head (driving) to one side while in the MT Plum, then 1-2 knees to the face then driving opposite direction, knees...repeat. It's very easy to get the full MT clinch as K-F doesn't seem to know how to address it. They usually tell me that I'm not allowed to clinch anymore.

Anyone who has never trained in the Thai clinch can be in a world of trouble, should they find themselves there. I highly recommend anyone interested in fighting, self defense, combat sports or whatever to do some training in the Thai clinch for the experience...



Against pure Boxers though, I would stay out of punching range and just low leg kick their lead leg all day while circling. Only engage when that leg is hurt. I don't box against pure Boxers. Although it's very rare for me to find a pure Boxer that would agree to spar with kicks.

It seems like many of the Asian MA's are weak in the boxing dept. And as long as a Boxer knows how to address kicks, knees and clinch...like not dipping too low to get kneed in the face and especially train to shield kicks, square out, catch, etc. I think Boxers can do extremely well against chopsocky. Once you kick a Boxer, you're off balance and he can return with 3-4 punches before you can reset and kick him again. But Boxing alone is bad news vs. kicks:


I agree, all Asian MA, including MT are weaker in the boxing department than boxers. :) But it is just bad strategy to box a boxer...as you say, keep on the outside, wear him down with kicks, if he gets inside initiate the grappling game...your video is a prime example of what happens to people who have never dealt with powerful leg kicks before. I'm sure that boxer was very tough, but people who aren't used to those types of leg kicks simply can't handle them...

[Iron_Eagle_76]

Although I generally hate vs. threads, there are some valid points made here. I look at it from the perspective of this, all styles bring something to the table of value, and while I certainly would not call them equal, they all have something to contribute to overall spectrum.

Kung Fu- Many styles but from what you are defining more of the Northern style, high kicks, angle kicks such as crescents, hooks, ax, ect can be hard to defend if you are not familiar with them. Also, donkey kicks and stop kicks can be greatly effective.

Karate-Again not all Karate is inclusive, but most Karate is trained with the intent of using angles and strong, fast strikes to disable quickly. This is not always the end result, but Karate, such as Kyukoshin, can be trained and used effectively. (Training Methods!!)

Boxing-Simple yet effective, no other MA'st punch like boxers, because it is what their entire style is built on and all they train. Entering and exiting strategy is very good, however, due to their method of bob and weave and the amount of weight they put on the front foot of their stance sets them up to get ate alive with leg kicks and knees (as well as not knowing how to defend kicks of any kind).

Muay Thai- Been said over and over again, strong clinch, strong knees and elbows, strong power kicks. Mostly ****ty hands. Still one of the better styles IMO.

So how do you get the best of all? You train and spar from all of the above, if you train it and know how to do it, you also know how to defend it. It is also of great importance to look at training methods to improve your existing skill set. Boxing and Muay Thai added weapons to my skill set and made my existing Kung Fu better. Now if you want to argue about what it is you actually do, I don't care about any of that garbage. As I said, all styles have worth to them, some much more than others but you can learn from all styles, as well you should.

Drinking from the same well over and over does nothing but become stagnant.

[Spiked]

It is ironic that you were all calling me a troll when there are posts like this.

[Faux Newbie]

Yes, sounds like the experience is related to Northern styles, whereas some southern stylists tend to forget they have kicks at all.

That said, I think the larger issue from a kung fu perspective is not what hands or kicks are in your toolbox, but that the vast majority don't drill them with simple steps like shuffle steps right, left, back forward, etc, while an opponent is doing the same. Without doing this, it's hard to refine the move to develop real power, and especially hard to develop a sense of distance and timing, which I think is more essential to power than most other factors.

Clinch skills tend to be another issue, and mostly related to drilling without using neck control and without allowing leg manipulations, imo. Also, some groups tend to focus on keeping the action at arm bridge distance, like some wing chun styles drill chi sao, and don't develop contact skills at the kind of close range that the clinch is. I think this is a case of mistaking a drill for the overall fighting method.

Personally, I think this all tends to be an offshoot to another problem, which is that knowing the form is for people who already know the techniques in it from drilling and practice.

Last thought (I promise), is that sometimes, people are unwilling to look at the jabs, crosses, throws, grips, etc, from their own style, and look at how other stylists have developed tactics and strategies to set them up or use them to set up other things, and apply that knowledge to their fighting. Not doing this tends to make people think of everything as a finishing move, and, combined with not drilling moves with small steps that vary distance, tends to make people who have practiced flowing within their moves to not flow between them.

This does not apply to everyone.

[Snipsky]

Yes, sounds like the experience is related to Northern styles, whereas some southern stylists tend to forget they have kicks at all.

you're probably not chinese and most assuredly a newbie. southern kung fu never lost their idea of kicking. they just don't kick above the waist. don't be fooled. then again, stop spreading mistruths on subjects you have no clue about.


but that the vast majority don't drill them with simple steps like shuffle steps right, left, back forward, etc, while an opponent is doing the same.


Last thought (I promise), is that sometimes, people are unwilling to look at the jabs, crosses, throws, grips, etc, from their own style, and look at how other stylists have developed tactics and strategies to set them up or use them to set up other things, and apply that knowledge to their fighting

wrong again.

perfect example of YOU not knowing. tisk tisk.

that is all. thank you. nut again.

[Scott R. Brown]

My biggest concerns with questions like this is the presumption that a fight is going to proceed like a sanctioned fight, or duel.

If a street fight goes more than the first 1-3 strikes it will most likely go to the ground. So, to me, if a fight appears to be inevitable, strike first, strike hard, strike in the right place and get it over quickly.

About 25 years ago I was asked by a 17 year old young man what I would teach him if I could only teach him one thing that would be of benefit in most circumstances, I gave him the above advice and taught him the following simple technique.

I explained to him that at his age most fights will begin with some form of verbal and physical posturing. This will give him indications of what his opponent's intentions are. If he is certain that a fight is inevitable, ask this opponent a question. Mostly out of context questions are best, because it throws the opponent off mentally creating what is in Japanese called "zuki".

By watching the opponents eyes you will be able to see their mind trip up, so to speak, then while seemingly scratching your ear or the side of your head, step forward and hammer fist him on the bridge of the nose. Follow up as necessary, but many times a follow up is not necessary.

As it turned out, and unbeknownst to me, this young man had a kid at school that was bullying him. While at the County Fair a short time later, his enemy accosted him accompanied by two friends, this kid did exactly what I told him and his enemy went down, of course, and wimped out from there.

If the fight escalates to the level of ground fighting or circling, attempting to avoid Muay Thai kicks, you have already lost the advantage and you are at the mercy of luck as to who is more skilled and who has the most back up along for the ride. At which point the smart thing to do is to simply cut and run.

[Faux Newbie]

you're probably not chinese and most assuredly a newbie. southern kung fu never lost their idea of kicking. they just don't kick above the waist. don't be fooled. then again, stop spreading mistruths on subjects you have no clue about.





wrong again.

perfect example of YOU not knowing. tisk tisk.

that is all. thank you. nut again.

Perhaps I didn't present myself well. I was saying these things were common mistakes made by some stylists, not traits of the styles themselves. In fact, I would say some of those I'm familiar with because I once did them. Nor did I cease doing them based on some epiphany of something being better than kung fu, I am a kung fu stylist and defer to kung fu body mechanics in all things.

I'm not here to fight or prove some point, I have limited time to be online most days, and like to discuss kung fu, especially with some people here, so I, for my part, am willing to disagree respectfully with those willing to do so, and will obstain from conversation where it requires us yelling at each other, as I am not here for that.

If I am wrong in an assertion, I am open to discussion of it for my own improvement, and am not intent on making my judgment something you are required to hold to.

[Faux Newbie]

Ah, to be fair, when I say 'the vast majority' do something, it is in the same sense as 'the vast majority of boxers are not good boxers'. It is not an attack on boxing, or northern or southern styles, but just the reality, that most practitioners are not going to be the cream of the crop. Still, the statement is unnecessarily confrontational.

I am not always able to say a thing in exactly the way I mean it, I will assume others to be the same.

[Faux Newbie]

My biggest concerns with questions like this is the presumption that a fight is going to proceed like a sanctioned fight, or duel.

If a street fight goes more than the first 1-3 strikes it will most likely go to the ground. So, to me, if a fight appears to be inevitable, strike first, strike hard, strike in the right place and get it over quickly.

About 25 years ago I was asked by a 17 year old young man what I would teach him if I could only teach him one thing that would be of benefit in most circumstances, I gave him the above advice and taught him the following simple technique.

I explained to him that at his age most fights will begin with some form of verbal and physical posturing. This will give him indications of what his opponent's intentions are. If he is certain that a fight is inevitable, ask this opponent a question. Mostly out of context questions are best, because it throws the opponent off mentally creating what is in Japanese called "zuki".

By watching the opponents eyes you will be able to see their mind trip up, so to speak, then while seemingly scratching your ear or the side of your head, step forward and hammer fist him on the bridge of the nose. Follow up as necessary, but many times a follow up is not necessary.

As it turned out, and unbeknownst to me, this young man had a kid at school that was bullying him. While at the County Fair a short time later, his enemy accosted him accompanied by two friends, this kid did exactly what I told him and his enemy went down, of course, and wimped out from there.

If the fight escalates to the level of ground fighting or circling, attempting to avoid Muay Thai kicks, you have already lost the advantage and you are at the mercy of luck as to who is more skilled and who has the most back up along for the ride. At which point the smart thing to do is to simply cut and run.

This is the problem with the focus on self defensive superiority or machismo, as since most of us who do any style for years do it because of no more tough guy reason than we like doing it, doing the time in any style to be able to be crazy technical in a fight is only going to happen for those of us who like it, for the vast majority, advice like the kind you gave is way more practical than to train until you can do it all without thinking, especially since technique is often a worse solution to such situations than yelling "boobies" and hitting them with a beer bottle.

[Iron_Eagle_76]

I don't think anyone with street fighting or ring fighting experience thinks that a street fight is going to go on length wise like a prize fight does, but your body holds up to the amount of training you have done.

If a runner is training for a 5 mile marathon, he runs 10 miles.

If a swimmer competes by doing 15 laps, they practice doing 30 laps.

Better conditioning most always determines the outcome, no matter if it's a 25 minute combat sport match or a 30 second street fight.

Most instructors who tell people this are fat f**ks who can't walk a set of stairs with out getting winded!:rolleyes:

[Scott R. Brown]

Strategy and tactics often make the difference when skill and experience is lagging behind one's opponent.

The Persians out manned and out supplied Alexander the Great in every battle, Alexander succeeded through strategy and tactics and having well disciplined troops.

[sanjuro_ronin]

So how do you get the best of all? You train and spar from all of the above, if you train it and know how to do it, you also know how to defend it. It is also of great importance to look at training methods to improve your existing skill set. Boxing and Muay Thai added weapons to my skill set and made my existing Kung Fu better. Now if you want to argue about what it is you actually do, I don't care about any of that garbage. As I said, all styles have worth to them, some much more than others but you can learn from all styles, as well you should.

Drinking from the same well over and over does nothing but become stagnant.

This.
Game, Set and Match.

[Scott R. Brown]

I don't think anyone with street fighting or ring fighting experience thinks that a street fight is going to go on length wise like a prize fight does, but your body holds up to the amount of training you have done.

If a runner is training for a 5 mile marathon, he runs 10 miles.

If a swimmer competes by doing 15 laps, they practice doing 30 laps.

Better conditioning most always determines the outcome, no matter if it's a 25 minute combat sport match or a 30 second street fight.

Most instructors who tell people this are fat f**ks who can't walk a set of stairs with out getting winded!:rolleyes:

Not really. I'll share another story. This is a true story.

There was an inmate at the prison where I used to work, he was in his mid 50's, was over weight and out of shape, but he was a boxer in his youth. He was noted for never losing a prison fight no matter the age or fitness of his opponents. These were prison streetfights, BTW, not sanctioned boxing bouts. He was also noted for knocking out his opponents.

After one particular knockout a work buddy of mine, who trains in Aikido, asked him how it was he always knocked out these younger more fit guys. The old guy said he just covered and took his hits until the punks gave him an opening, then he would hit them in the temple or on the chin, knockng them out.

Your response is the response of a novice. You may be physically skilled, or not, but you are a novice when it comes to strategy and tactics.

It doesn't always take fitness or a wide variety of skill, it takes patience and intelligence too. This is how old guys embarrass young guys.

[Faux Newbie]

I like training. I train to have decent endurance, I train to apply things I find useful or fun, I try to train to improve by seeing what better fighters than me from any style or venue. That said, that level has almost nothing to do with self defense situations. I've yet to see a self defense scenario that came down to endurance, in bouncing, or in my younger days where half the people I knew were dealing drugs and ending up in stupid stuff. Never once did endurance play even the slightest role.

More often than not, the person able to take a hit won, or the person who struck first, or struck first most effectively, so working technique is obviously useful. But for self defense, the main advantage for endurance is running, imo.

Training for self defense is boring and training for mostly the least qualified opponents.

[Scott R. Brown]

35 years ago I knew a guy who took a baseball bat to the back of his head, he turned around, took the bat away from his assailant, and taught him what's what!

Many martial artists suffer from too much martial arts experience and not enough real life experience.

I love these guys who think that us older guys are all fat. We'll see which ones can keep up with us when they reach our ages, LOL!

[Iron_Eagle_76]

Not really. I'll share another story. This is a true story.

There was an inmate at the prison where I used to work, he was in his mid 50's, was over weight and out of shape, but he was a boxer in his youth. He was noted for never losing a prison fight no matter the age or fitness of his opponents. These were prison streetfights, BTW, not sanctioned boxing bouts. He was also noted for knocking out his opponents.

After one particular knockout a work buddy of mine, who trains in Aikido, asked him how it was he always knocked out these younger more fit guys. The old guy said he just covered and took his hits until the punks gave him an opening, then he would hit them in the temple or on the chin, knockng them out.

Your response is the response of a novice. You may be physically skilled, or not, but you are a novice when it comes to strategy and tactics.

It doesn't always take fitness or a wide variety of skill, it takes patience and intelligence too. This is how old guys embarrass young guys.

Cool story, Bro!!:p I'll stick with what I know works, thanks for caring.;)

[Scott R. Brown]

Cool story, Bro!!:p I'll stick with what I know works, thanks for caring.;)

Fair enough, so did the old boxer. That's the way it should be, just stay open-minded to ideas you may have never considered. You never know when it might be useful. ;)

[Faux Newbie]

35 years ago I knew a guy who took a baseball bat to the back of his head, he turned around, took the bat away from his assailant, and taught him what's what!

Many martial artists suffer from too much martial arts experience and not enough real life experience.

I love these guys who think that us older guys are all fat. We'll see which ones can keep up with us when they reach our ages, LOL!

My best friend's father, an unathletic overweight older man, was once in a situation where a younger man came out of his car, angry over being yelled at for being a bad driver, and approached him with a baseball bat. My friend's father said, "Son, if you need a baseball bat to beat me up, you've got real problems." The guy went right back to his car.

[Scott R. Brown]

My best friend's father, an unathletic overweight older man, was once in a situation where a younger man came out of his car, angry over being yelled at for being a bad driver, and approached him with a baseball bat. My friend's father said, "Son, if you need a baseball bat to beat me up, you've got real problems." The guy went right back to his car.

LOL, Great story! Sometimes that's all it takes, strategy and tactics.

I taught my, somewhat wimpy, nephew to deal with his high school bullies using self-deprecating humor. It worked the first time he tried it, and no one got hurt. It also tends to make the bullies into friends, which ends the bullying.

[Faux Newbie]

But if we all know conflict management, we lose any hope of heroic action fights involving butterfly knives!

At least we still have the internet.

[Scott R. Brown]

But if we all know conflict management, we lose any hope of heroic action fights involving butterfly knives!

At least we still have the internet.

And computer games, LOL!

[PalmStriker]

what's your point? Excellent OP , gunbeat, great perspective, I think we can all agree from a non kungfu practitioner against kungfu fighters.
sounds about right although some TCMA styles are more deceptive than others.

[gunbeatskroty]

what's your point?

We going to spar girl? I'm still waiting.

[Faux Newbie]

Speaking of the power of kung fu kicks mentioned by the OP, that they weren't held back(so probably things like crescents, round kicks), I've found that what usually limits the power is striking with the wrong surface. People tend to use the length of the sole of the foot on certain kicks that actually use the heel. And certain kicks are really meant for in close against targets on or below the knee, and often assume that you've forced the opponent's weight on that knee.

[PalmStriker]

He gone bye bye.:)

[Faux Newbie]

He gone bye bye.:)

Who has? Snipsky?

[Iron_Eagle_76]

I like training. I train to have decent endurance, I train to apply things I find useful or fun, I try to train to improve by seeing what better fighters than me from any style or venue. That said, that level has almost nothing to do with self defense situations. I've yet to see a self defense scenario that came down to endurance, in bouncing, or in my younger days where half the people I knew were dealing drugs and ending up in stupid stuff. Never once did endurance play even the slightest role.

More often than not, the person able to take a hit won, or the person who struck first, or struck first most effectively, so working technique is obviously useful. But for self defense, the main advantage for endurance is running, imo.

Training for self defense is boring and training for mostly the least qualified opponents.

So what your saying is that the person who does not train hard, spar hard for multiple rounds, strength train, ect. it going to be better equipped to take a hit, strike first, and strike most effectively as opposed to someone who trains all these things on a regular basis:confused:

Intelligence and more so Experience is what will trump youth and strength. That being said, the person who is intelligent, has experience, and still trains at a high level is where it is. No substitution for proper training, none.

[gunbeatskroty]

Have you adopted the side thrust kick? It always baffles that Nak Muay rarely employ this powerful technique. Some Thai Boxers have picked it up and include it in their arsenal, but generally it is not taught or used in MT. (Side teep is similar, superficially, but is employing different mechanics and different intent than a thrusting side kick with the heel.)

Is this kind of like a sidekick...where you fake a Teep/front-kick and turn it into a Sidekick? If yes, then this does work well vs. MT from my experience. It's very annoying. Only downside is that my nuts are wide open for accidents when they throw inside leg kicks. The general Sidekick also works well vs. MT, very annoying but both doesn't seem to do much damage usually. I've been Sidekick to the throat a few times, and that hurts but didn't stop the fight. This is why I pressure fight with hands a lot vs. Karatekas, K-F, etc. because they like to keep distance w/sidekicks.



I also find, in general, the fighting techniques of northern Gong Fu styles and Muay Thai to compliment each other nicely.

What's Northern Gong Fu like? I've sparred mostly with these guys: http://www.dennisbrownshaolin.com/


your video is a prime example of what happens to people who have never dealt with powerful leg kicks before. I'm sure that boxer was very tough, but people who aren't used to those types of leg kicks simply can't handle them...

The Black dude (Boxer), is Arthur Williams (or something)...and held 2 Boxing world titles and had a high win/KO record too. He was a little out of his prime in that video....but many Boxers seems to be very arrogant and thinks that they can beat up Kickers easily w/o needing to train how to address kicks. Although they only enter K-1 when they're out of their prime, can no longer get fights in Boxing and mostly, need the money. And K-1 loves bringing them in b/c it's a spectacle and sells tickets.

[Faux Newbie]

So what your saying is that the person who does not train hard, spar hard for multiple rounds, strength train, ect. it going to be better equipped to take a hit, strike first, and strike most effectively as opposed to someone who trains all these things on a regular basis:confused:

No, I wasn't saying that. I'm saying in most situations, endurance never plays a role. I'm not arguing against endurance training, just saying that the truth is, I don't do it for self defense because, aside from running, I've really never seen any evidence that it is a major factor in the vast majority of self defense situations. I'm not arguing that the street is this uber deadly thing, it's a stupid, utterly ridiculous type of environment, and for me, I don't focus my training on it.

However, I will disagree on one aspect you brought up. The one most capable to hit first is the one who ambushes, and no one else, in the most worrisome self defense situations. Everything else is bumfights footage, I don't know a single person over 35 who isn't working security who ever gets in a chest to chest argument where a punch might get thrown, and this suggests to me that attitude and judgment trump training in reality.

That said, I like training, so I train.


Intelligence and more so Experience is what will trump youth and strength. That being said, the person who is intelligent, has experience, and still trains at a high level is where it is. No substitution for proper training, none.

I agree on experience(vs. mere age).

I think that the ambusher always has the advantage, regardless of training, if training is the first line of defense. Only after that point does anything else matter.

That said, training is awesome fun. If I want to feel uber deadly, I make sure I have a sharp knife, but I don't see how endurance comes into play in most street fights, so I'm not training endurance because of street fights. If I were going to train for street fights, I would train knife and gun skills over strength and endurance training. If that were my logic.

[gunbeatskroty]

Kung Fu- Many styles but from what you are defining more of the Northern style, high kicks, angle kicks such as crescents, hooks, ax, ect can be hard to defend if you are not familiar with them. Also, donkey kicks and stop kicks can be greatly effective.

Is it what these guys are or closely a resemblance to Northern K-F? http://www.dennisbrownshaolin.com/

This "donkey kick", is it turning 180 deg and kicking straight with the rear heel up and toes pointed down targeting the body....w/o looking at the target? TKD calls this the Ox Kick or something. I like this kick too... and get the most power out of such kicks. A little different than the spinning back kick.


Karate-Again not all Karate is inclusive, but most Karate is trained with the intent of using angles and strong, fast strikes to disable quickly. This is not always the end result, but Karate, such as Kyukoshin, can be trained and used effectively. (Training Methods!!)


As I said, all styles have worth to them, some much more than others but you can learn from all styles, as well you should.

This is it right here.

[Faux Newbie]

Donkey kicks are something I "learned" long ago, but haven't messed with incorporating into fighting much. Sounds like fun.

Stop kicks are a wonderful thing.

Never cared for hook kicks.

[Kellen Bassette]

Is this kind of like a sidekick...where you fake a Teep/front-kick and turn it into a Sidekick? If yes, then this does work well vs. MT from my experience. It's very annoying. Only downside is that my nuts are wide open for accidents when they throw inside leg kicks. The general Sidekick also works well vs. MT, very annoying but both doesn't seem to do much damage usually. I've been Sidekick to the throat a few times, and that hurts but didn't stop the fight. This is why I pressure fight with hands a lot vs. Karatekas, K-F, etc. because they like to keep distance w/sidekicks.


The kick I think your referring to, in MT, I call a side teep...it is very similar to the thrusting sidekick, except your usually using the ball of the foot and more of a pushing motion...it's a sneaky technique and great for creating distance, (like a regular teep) but it usually doesn't cause much damage, mostly throws the opponent back...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X7A96CgJ4GQ

This technique is what I call a "snapping" side kick. I'll just say it works for some people and it is used for a different strategy than what I prefer...I think this is the kick most folks are referring to when they complain about a lack of power...some guys are tough with it and make it work...IME I prefer a different method...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z6qhGmU6hb4

The method above is what I call "thrusting" side kick. They look very similar superficially but employ completely different mechanics. (Not unlike comparing a TKD roundhouse to a MT roundhouse.)

At some points he talks about using it in a "jab like" fashion where it would be kind of like a variation on a teep, but he also mentions the "stomping" motion that this kick gets its' power from..this is the way I like to use it. When used like a sideways stomp, with the heel of the foot, (as opposed to the blade, ball, or flat footed,) it is a very strong kick with real stopping/damaging power.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=exbkTtKR8ZM

This is a MT guy using the thrusting style sidekick, he's preferring a different setup for the same technique, but of course there are lots of ways to use it...




What's Northern Gong Fu like?


There are lots of different northern styles, they tend to be characterized by long range techniques and aggressive, powerful attacks, also the variety of kicks you were mentioning....of course the effectiveness will always come down to the practicality of the students training....I'm sure some disagree with me, but I see a lot of elements of traditional northern Gong Fu in sanda/sanshou style training...

[gunbeatskroty]

Also, some groups tend to focus on keeping the action at arm bridge distance, like some wing chun styles drill chi sao, and don't develop contact skills at the kind of close range that the clinch is. I think this is a case of mistaking a drill for the overall fighting method.

Wing Chun is a style that I'd like to spar against more. Not too many around here that's relatively close by. I used to train some sticky-hands with a friend who has 5 years of WC.

[gunbeatskroty]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z6qhGmU6hb4

The method above is what I call "thrusting" side kick. They look very similar superficially but employ completely different mechanics. (Not unlike comparing a TKD roundhouse to a MT roundhouse.)

Ok, now I see. It is like you say, the MT rear Teep.... where there's more effort on pulling the leg back and up rather than lazily letting it drop back down to avoid getting caught.

[Kellen Bassette]

Ok, now I see. It is like you say, the MT rear Teep.... where there's more effort on pulling the leg back and up rather than lazily letting it drop back down to avoid getting caught.

Yes, sanshou guys do a lot of leg catching, so the retraction is very important if the kick misses or grazes...I think it's not so crucial when it lands solid, however...

The way I was taught the teep, I was told that either the ball of the foot, or the heel was correct...but we used the ball at least 90% of the time, because of the reach advantage...I heard someone explain it as, "the ball of the foot creates distance, the heel causes damage." Of course that's a generalization, but I think it's a pretty good guide for strategy....

[gunbeatskroty]

I don't think anyone with street fighting or ring fighting experience thinks that a street fight is going to go on length wise like a prize fight does, but your body holds up to the amount of training you have done.


Scotty Brown is an old guy who trains in the art of pretend-death strikes. He's never fought in the ring vs. equally trained opponents before...which for him, would be a portly female. He's never even sparred for full knockouts to realize that the reason ring fights rarely ends in 2-3 seconds or 2-3 strikes is because the other person is EQUALLY TRAINED & CONDITIONED ....and you can't just ninja strike him like in the movies and expects him to go down.

Suckerpunching some loudmouth drunk in the street is easy. Trained fighters don't need to suckerpunch. If it's 1 on 1, I would never hit first and risk going to jail, get sued and risk a felony conviction on my permanent record. I'm good and confident enough let the other guy go first. But usually I'd walk away. I already know that I can beat up most untrained toughguys...as many walk into our gym for the trial class every week and I have to teach them. Only people like Scottie, who never fought before....thinks it's always a life or death, Mad Max Thunderdome match for everything. This is very common among Krav Maga people and the general Women Self Defense/Anti-Rape people. They think chops to the throat or nuts ends it all, yet they've never tried out their BS training by letting someone really try to knock them the F out. I can offer this service for free btw.

[Faux Newbie]

My cat wants to hump you, you're so hot.

[Faux Newbie]

Really, he's got his upper lip up in that weird ***** cat face. Every once in a while, his body just shakes. And it's all you.

[Kellen Bassette]

Mad Max Thunderdome match for everything.

If you keep mentioning that, I'm going to have to watch it at some point....

[bawang]

http://forum.symthic.com/wcf/images/avatars/avatar-1999.gif

[Pete]

technique is often a worse solution to such situations than yelling "boobies" and hitting them with a beer bottle.

lmao :D:D

where are you from gunbeatskroty ?

[Iron_Eagle_76]

Is it what these guys are or closely a resemblance to Northern K-F? http://www.dennisbrownshaolin.com/

This "donkey kick", is it turning 180 deg and kicking straight with the rear heel up and toes pointed down targeting the body....w/o looking at the target? TKD calls this the Ox Kick or something. I like this kick too... and get the most power out of such kicks. A little different than the spinning back kick.





This is it right here.

The donkey kick I was referring to is a low kick where you chamber, than using the heel you throw inverted towards the shin, can be used offensively for that or to stop a kick. Bruce Lee made it famous and uses it in a lot of movies, it may be called something else in other styles but in Pai Lum, the style I studied, we called it a donkey kick. Never saw it used in Karate, not saying there isn't a style that does not, but I have seen it in Judo and Shuai Jiao as a great way to knock someone's balance, particularly from a jacket or lapel grap.

Never heard of the Ox Kick but TKD has tons of kicks and different variations so I'll have to check that out. TKD is another style that takes a lot of flack but when trained right with boxing or good hand I've seen full contact fighters with a TKD background that are wicked.

This is a clip of me doing Side Thrust Kick a while back, how we always trained this kick was to hit with the heel, rolling the hips over for power, and to retract quickly as to not get the leg trapped and to be able to have the leg up for defense (check) and to throw out another kick quickly if needed.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rirg2kanZd4

I have always preferred this method than the side snap kick, which is in our style and practiced as well, but I don't feel personally that it is as applicable a technique.

[Spiked]

Scotty Brown is an old guy who trains in the art of pretend-death strikes. He's never fought in the ring vs. equally trained opponents before...which for him, would be a portly female. He's never even sparred for full knockouts to realize that the reason ring fights rarely ends in 2-3 seconds or 2-3 strikes is because the other person is EQUALLY TRAINED & CONDITIONED ....and you can't just ninja strike him like in the movies and expects him to go down.

Suckerpunching some loudmouth drunk in the street is easy. Trained fighters don't need to suckerpunch. If it's 1 on 1, I would never hit first and risk going to jail, get sued and risk a felony conviction on my permanent record. I'm good and confident enough let the other guy go first. But usually I'd walk away. I already know that I can beat up most untrained toughguys...as many walk into our gym for the trial class every week and I have to teach them. Only people like Scottie, who never fought before....thinks it's always a life or death, Mad Max Thunderdome match for everything. This is very common among Krav Maga people and the general Women Self Defense/Anti-Rape people. They think chops to the throat or nuts ends it all, yet they've never tried out their BS training by letting someone really try to knock them the F out. I can offer this service for free btw.

Your posts are really good. They are filled with lots of realistic information. Keep up the good work.

[dlcox]

Your posts are really good. They are filled with lots of realistic information. Keep up the good work.

Aahh! The pungent smell of a freshly brewed cup of bromance:D

[Frost]

Aahh! The pungent smell of a freshly brewed cup of bromance:D

anyone else think they are both the same guy, and creating two different accounts here is the only way he can have a conversation with anyone other than his blow up doll??

[Spiked]

anyone else think they are both the same guy, and creating two different accounts here is the only way he can have a conversation with anyone other than his blow up doll??

Frost, I hope you have a real job because you are going to get fired from your current Internet Speculation position.


Gunwhatevers and I talk about two different things. I came on here to make fun of Dave Ross. Gun atrocity constantly talks about sparring.

If I did have a blow up doll it would be hotter than any toothless Brit you have brought to your bed. British women are not know for being overly beautiful. Combine that with a socialistic dental system and you get not good results.

[dlcox]

If I did have a blow up doll it would be hotter than any toothless Brit you have brought to your bed. British women are not know for being overly beautiful. Combine that with a socialistic dental system and you get not good results.

Ha! I don't care who you are, that's funny.

[Spiked]

Ha! I don't care who you are, that's funny.

Thanks, bro!

[bawang]

If I did have a blow up doll

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1vwZ_Kzx6vs

if

[Spiked]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1vwZ_Kzx6vs

if

Your mom just lays there so I guess you can call her a blow up doll.

[bawang]

Your mom just lays there so I guess you can call her a blow up doll.

You call. You call her a blow up doll here so I guess ther mom just lays there so I guess your a blow up doll her mom just lays there so I guess ther mom just lays you call her mom just lays there so I guess ther mom just lays you can can can call her a blow up do. Yom blomom uer ussoup dol I ca mow Yo doup do I an I the ca I cal cayoup lan t t yssomo us blllo ll.

[Spiked]

No comebacks? :)

[dlcox]

You call. You call her a blow up doll here so I guess ther mom just lays there so I guess your a blow up doll her mom just lays there so I guess ther mom just lays you call her mom just lays there so I guess ther mom just lays you can can can call her a blow up do. Yom blomom uer ussoup dol I ca mow Yo doup do I an I the ca I cal cayoup lan t t yssomo us blllo ll.

WTF Bawang? Did you have a stroke?

[Spiked]

WTF Bawang? Did you have a stroke?

No, he got Spiked and could not handle it.

[Scott R. Brown]

Scotty Brown is an old guy who trains in the art of pretend-death strikes. He's never fought in the ring vs. equally trained opponents before...which for him, would be a portly female. He's never even sparred for full knockouts to realize that the reason ring fights rarely ends in 2-3 seconds or 2-3 strikes is because the other person is EQUALLY TRAINED & CONDITIONED ....and you can't just ninja strike him like in the movies and expects him to go down.

Suckerpunching some loudmouth drunk in the street is easy. Trained fighters don't need to suckerpunch. If it's 1 on 1, I would never hit first and risk going to jail, get sued and risk a felony conviction on my permanent record. I'm good and confident enough let the other guy go first. But usually I'd walk away. I already know that I can beat up most untrained toughguys...as many walk into our gym for the trial class every week and I have to teach them. Only people like Scottie, who never fought before....thinks it's always a life or death, Mad Max Thunderdome match for everything. This is very common among Krav Maga people and the general Women Self Defense/Anti-Rape people. They think chops to the throat or nuts ends it all, yet they've never tried out their BS training by letting someone really try to knock them the F out. I can offer this service for free btw.

Someone's a bit psycho! :eek:

[Spiked]

Someone's a bit psycho! :eek:




If you're going to be nutcase's b!tch, why don't you just suck his d!ck and get it over with! :eek:

Scott, do not get mad at me. Address his post.


Are you a fat wannabe too deadly for the ring? If so then accept it. If not then argue with him. I have nothing to do with your disagreements with him. I'm just enjoying the show.

[bawang]

No comebacks? :)

No comebacks? Nomebacks? cks? co comebacks? Nomebacks? Nomebacks? co comebacks? comebacks? Nomebacomebacks? :) No :) :) co :) Nomebacks? :) :) No No cks? No :) co Nomebacks? :)

Scott, do not get mad at me. Address his post.


Are you a fat wannabe too deadly for the ring? If so then accept it. If not then argue with him. I have nothing to do with your disagreements with him. I'm just enjoying the show.

Are not men a fat mad a fat wannabe too the not get get madly for dead argue ring too not the nott, deadly fat enjoying too thenjoying too too nott, deadly for to not wannabe you argue so nothenjoying too withenjoying thim. If so too dis post the nothenjoying thents with you argue thisagreeme.

[bawang]

If you agree with this pu$$y, then you are his b!tch. If you don't like it then stop acting like his b!tch. It's very easy. Stay out of the pig sty and you won't get hit with any pig sh!t.

I'm probably in better condition than both of you. There is a member here who has met me, he knows, but I won't drag him into this pi$$ing contest. I respect him too much.

I'm am surly in better condition than either of you two will be when you are my age and probably in better condition than both of you right now.

I know I said this like 4 times alrdy, but hes a teenagerjust out of high school. he told me this in a pm.

[Spiked]

If you agree with this pu$$y, then you are his b!tch. If you don't like it then stop acting like his b!tch. It's very easy. Stay out of the pig sty and you won't get hit with any pig sh!t.

I'm probably in better condition than both of you. There is a member here who has met me, he knows, but I won't drag him into this pi$$ing contest. I respect him too much.

I'm am surly in better condition than either of you two will be when you are my age and probably in better condition than both of you right now.


Scott, what are you talking about? He is talking about testing his art. What is wrong with that? You are in good condition? So what. You are not a fighter and there is nothing wrong with that. He is talking about sparring and I guess you brought up fighting in the mean streets? I am not sure as I have not been following that thread closely.

I like his posts. Big whoop. I might like yours too but I have not seen too many. Chill out, fatty.

[bawang]

Scott, what are you talking about? He is talking about testing his art. What is wrong with that? You are in good condition? So what. You are not a fighter and there is nothing wrong with that. He is talking about sparring and I guess you brought up fighting in the mean streets? I am not sure as I have not been following that thread closely.

I like his posts. Big whoop. I might like yours too but I have not seen too many. Chill out, fatty.

I like you. I like sex.

[Syn7]

I like you. I like sex.

Combine that with the strength of ten ronnie colemans and he'll be the one getting spiked. :p

[Scott R. Brown]

Scott, do not get mad at me. Address his post.


Are you a fat wannabe too deadly for the ring? If so then accept it. If not then argue with him. I have nothing to do with your disagreements with him. I'm just enjoying the show.


Scott, what are you talking about? He is talking about testing his art. What is wrong with that? You are in good condition? So what. You are not a fighter and there is nothing wrong with that. He is talking about sparring and I guess you brought up fighting in the mean streets? I am not sure as I have not been following that thread closely.

I like his posts. Big whoop. I might like yours too but I have not seen too many. Chill out, fatty.

Perhaps I misunderstood your intention, but perhaps, also, it would be a good idea for you to edit when you quote someone else's posts, since you included his 3rd grade insults to me in your quote of his post that you were praising.

In that context then, I think it should be clear why I am responding to you in kind.


I know I said this like 4 times alrdy, but hes a teenagerjust out of high school. he told me this in a pm.

I would have placed him closer to 3rd grade.

Anyone who has to repeatedly post about how dangerous he is and how fat everyone else is, is clearly not too skilled, mature, educated, or intelligent.

And our whole pi$$ing contest began when I supported a point he made on another thread and he was too stupid to realize this and decided to attack me in response.

But I've haven't had a good pi$$iing contest in a while and I have the time, so......;):D

[Spiked]

Perhaps I misunderstood your intention, but perhaps, also, it would be a good idea for you to edit when you quote someone else's posts, since you included his 3rd grade insults to me in your quote of his post that you were praising.

In that context then, I think it should be clear why I am responding to you in kind.



I would have placed him closer to 3rd grade.

Anyone who has to repeatedly post about how dangerous he is and how fat everyone else is, is clearly not too skilled, mature, educated, or intelligent.

And our whole pi$$ing contest began when I supported a point he made on another thread and he was too stupid to realize this and decided to attack me in response.

But I've haven't had a good pi$$iing contest in a while and I have the time, so......;):D


Oh, I understand now. You thought I was saying that I liked how he dissed you. No. I like his posts in general but happened to quote that one by mistake. My mistake.

Can you guys fight each other?

[bawang]

I would have placed him closer to 3rd grade.

Anyone who has to repeatedly post about how dangerous he is and how fat everyone else is, is clearly not too skilled, mature, educated, or intelligent.

And our whole pi$$ing contest began when I supported a point he made on another thread and he was too stupid to realize this and decided to attack me in response.

But I've haven't had a good pi$$iing contest in a while and I have the time, so......;):D

if you stay calm hes harmless. the dude is just not that smart.

[Spiked]

if you stay calm hes harmless. the dude is just not that smart.

Stay calm? It is an internet forum. We are all harmless here. As harmless as those "grappling" drawings you like to post. More like oriental gay sex pics

[Scott R. Brown]

Oh, I understand now. You thought I was saying that I liked how he dissed you. No. I like his posts in general but happened to quote that one by mistake. My mistake.

I apologize for my share of the misunderstanding, and my rather colorful insults!;):)



Can you guys fight each other?

Until I get bored or tired of playing with children.


if you stay calm hes harmless. the dude is just not that smart.

Thank you, I am not upset, just having a little fun. I already PM'D him a friendly noted and he still wanted to play the jerk, so I am just accommodating him for now.

I have been behaving myself for quite some time, and this seems like a live one!

Although I don't see it as lasting much longer, he is already gettig boring, He isn't creative enough in his insults.

[bawang]

As harmless as those "grappling" drawings you like to post. More like oriental gay sex pics

you don't understand do u? I have no attachments. you cant pull a david ross on me.

[Faux Newbie]

These kids don't come up with these ideas, they're copying and sometimes encouraged by adults. They think this is a holy cause, Allah will give them twenty virgins in heaven if they can make one less person lotus kick.

[bawang]

prolly taekwondo+bjj reject from bullshido

[gunbeatskroty]

If you keep mentioning that, I'm going to have to watch it at some point....

Mad Max III is one of the best movies ever. MM 1 & 2 are good also.

[gunbeatskroty]

lmao :D:D

where are you from gunbeatskroty ?

I'm working in the Washington DC metro area right now. Always open for some friendly sparring.

[gunbeatskroty]

This is a clip of me doing Side Thrust Kick a while back, how we always trained this kick was to hit with the heel, rolling the hips over for power, and to retract quickly as to not get the leg trapped and to be able to have the leg up for defense (check) and to throw out another kick quickly if needed.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rirg2kanZd4

Nice kicks. TKD calls this the "sliding sidekick" or something like that. It's kind of hard to hit MT with this power sidekick because you need some distance to get the power and MT usually keeps you just a little out of their rear leg roundhouse range. The ones that works and most annoying are the rapid, snapping sidekick with the dominant leg. They aren't powerful, but great at keeping MT away...and starts to hurt after a while. TKD and Karate uses this a lot against my MT base so I constantly pressure fighting with my hands to not keep eating this kick.

[gunbeatskroty]

anyone else think they are both the same guy, and creating two different accounts here is the only way he can have a conversation with anyone other than his blow up doll??

Sounds like you are well experienced with this cupcake.

[gunbeatskroty]

Someone's a bit psycho! :eek:

Still hurting because you're old and never had the guts to spar hard, let alone fight for real?

[gunbeatskroty]

Scott, what are you talking about? He is talking about testing his art. What is wrong with that? You are in good condition? So what. You are not a fighter and there is nothing wrong with that. He is talking about sparring and I guess you brought up fighting in the mean streets? I am not sure as I have not been following that thread closely.

I like his posts. Big whoop. I might like yours too but I have not seen too many. Chill out, fatty.

Scotty Brown is an old guy and just your average pretend-fighter/slap fighter. He's funny though. He's one of those old, fat know-it-all at the average Kung-Fu school that's always quick to try to teach people and correct them, when he's not even the instructor. Then when it's sparring time, I light them up.

[gunbeatskroty]

Perhaps I misunderstood your intention, but perhaps, also, it would be a good idea for you to edit when you quote someone else's posts, since you included his 3rd grade insults to me in your quote of his post that you were praising.

In that context then, I think it should be clear why I am responding to you in kind.

I would have placed him closer to 3rd grade.

What's funny here is that you're too stupid to even realize what a hypocrite you are when you're doing exactly what you're complaining about:

" Originally Posted by Scott R. Brown View Post
If you agree with this pu$$y, then you are his b!tch. If you don't like it then stop acting like his b!tch. It's very easy. Stay out of the pig sty and you won't get hit with any pig sh!t. "

You're too funny Scottie, like a clown. Your parents must be proud that you've become the exact inbred replication of themselves :)

[Pete]

I'm working in the Washington DC metro area right now. Always open for some friendly sparring.

ah it seemed like you would be :) that's abit far though, would be about a 3500 mile swim :eek: