Daoist Alchemy and TCMA footwork

[lkfmdc]

The north-south axis (Jih Wu)
The seven star (Chat Sing)
Baat Gwa / Ga Gua
Ng Haan / Wu Xing (5 elements / phases)

Which came first, the chicken or the egg?

[Spiked]

I think in your mind you know how to train the real deal but at your heart you seem to be a tcma mental fantasizer

[pazman]

Which came first, the chicken or the egg?

There's one aspect of Chinese philosophy that promotes accordance with nature and spontaneity, and another that claims no phenomenon can escape the power of the human mind to categorize and systematize it.

One of my teachers in China asked me one day if I could explain how (Western) boxing uses five elements. I told him we haven't used element theory to explain martial arts for at least 300 years. He looked at me quite seriously and said "This shows Chinese martial arts are inherently superior." It was truly a "lolwut" moment.

Showing how things relate to qixing, liuhe, wuxing, etc in China is a way of "legitimizing" knowledge.

[bawang]

There's one aspect of Chinese philosophy that promotes accordance with nature and spontaneity, and another that claims no phenomenon can escape the power of the human mind to categorize and systematize it.

One of my teachers in China asked me one day if I could explain how (Western) boxing uses five elements. I told him we haven't used element theory to explain martial arts for at least 300 years. He looked at me quite seriously and said "This shows Chinese martial arts are inherently superior." It was truly a "lolwut" moment.

Showing how things relate to qixing, liuhe, wuxing, etc in China is a way of "legitimizing" knowledge.

when Chinese boxer struggles to progress, he resorts to Taoist magic. when western boxer struggles to progress, he ups the dose.

[David Jamieson]

scribblings on papers and the musings of loons has little to do with the urgency of fisticuffs.

Basing footwork on cosmology instead of basing it on what works in conflict is really out there.

Also, I'd give a nickel, a shiny one, to anyone who could articulate the manifest benefits of using star charts in their boxing regimen. lol

this is the aspect of Kung fu that is rubbish in my opinion and yes, it takes away from spending time conditioning, training, sparring, doing something actually useful to the pursuit. :)

ghosts, goblins, aliens etc are for immature fearful minds. All phenomena is illusion. Do the work, don't shirk. :D

[wenshu]

when Chinese boxer struggles to progress, he resorts to Taoist magic. when western boxer struggles to progress, he ups the dose.

Didn't Taoist alchemists first distill testosterone from urine over 2000 years ago?

[David Jamieson]

Didn't Taoist alchemists first distill testosterone from urine over 2000 years ago?

Dunno about that. But they did cook eggs in it.

[wenshu]

The Autumn Mineral


The use of urine as medicine has along history in many cultures but the extraction of substances from urine, specifically hormones, at this early date is unique to the Chinese. The Chinese considered urine to be a part of blood and as such contained properties of the blood. Thus, they concluded its value in treatment of disease. The types of urine used are specified: male or female, age and diet were all of concern. Early references to chhiu shih appear in print from 125 BC, the time of Liu-An, reputed father of autumn mineral, Prince of Huai Nan. Here is an excerpt from the writings of LiShih-Chen speaking of the origins of the term chhiu shih (autumn mineral):

The term was really first used by the Prince of Huai-Nan. (Liu-An) named one of his tan (elixirs) chhiu shih, to express its white color and its solidity. Recently people have purified the urinary precipitates (jen chungpai) to a white substance which is also called chhiu shih, to indicate that like the urine itself it is derived from the excess of the nutrient essentialsof the vital forces (ching chhi). The iatro-chemists repeat the process of sublimation (sheng ta), and the best product is called chhiu ping. The idea(of the initial concentration) was derived from the evaporation of sea-water in the production of salt. Indeed there are adepts who place (certain)salts in a reaction-vessel and apply heat to obtain a substitute product. It is important to know the difference between the real product and the false one.1

There are quite a number of recipes for the Autumn mineral included in this volume.They describe in detail a variety of techniques, however there are two main differentiations, one using heat to sublimate, called yang lien and one using coolness or room temperature to precipitate, called yin lien. In their words, they were extracting the yin within yang and the yang within yin. By using specific temperatures the steroids remained stable and other inactive materials separated from them. Another recipe mentions the use of saponins to precipitate solids, a technique not utilized in Europe until the 1900’s. The end result of the two different processes: they were able to extract two separate substances, gonadotropin or anterior pituitary hormones, and sex hormones,androgens and estrogens. Needham’s knowledge as a microbiologist comes though in his analysis of these recipes and he explains in terms of modern chemistry what they were achieving in these concoctions. Recipes for autumn mineral appear in print from +1025and on. They are fascinating to read, revealing the theories of yin and yang and fiveelements on which they are clearly based. The oldest written one (+1025) follows:

Collect ten tan (over150 gallons) of male urine and set up a largeevaporating pan in an empty room. Fix on top of it a deep earthenwarestill, luting the edges together with paper-pulp and lime so that when it has
dried no steam can escape. Fill the evaporating basin 70 to 80 percent fullwith urine, and heat strongly from below, setting a man to watch it. If itfroths over, add small amounts of cold urine. It must not be allowed tooverflow. The dry residue is jen chung pai. Put some of this, finelypowdered, into a good earthenware jar and proceed according to themethod of sealing and subliming by placing the whole in a stove andheating with charcoal. About two or three ounces (of sublimate) will beobtained. Grind this to a powder, and mix with date-flesh to make pills thesize of a mung bean. For each dose take five to seven pills with warmwine or soup before breakfast.

The autumn mineral was used for treating a wide range of conditions, much as we use bht today: hypogonadism, impotence, sex reversals (where males spontaneously turned into females or vice versa, a phenomenon well known in ancient China), hermaphroditism, spermatorrhea, dysmenorrhea, leucorrhea,sexual debility, and even apparently stimulating the growth of the beard(since the Chinese knew that men grew beards as a result of having testicles and ceased to do so when castrated).3

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:d2xk2KpvovgJ:www.futuremedicinenow. com/pages/ancientHormones.pdf+the+genius+of+china+ascheim&hl=en&gl=uk

[RenDaHai]

this is the aspect of Kung fu that is rubbish in my opinion and yes, it takes away from spending time conditioning, training, sparring, doing something actually useful to the pursuit. :)

These are universal theories, they apply to all aspects of ancient Chinese culture.

You can apply these theories to boxing, but you can also apply them to any other thing.

Say calligraphy for example.

If you can apply 5 elements to calligraphy and to Wushu, then indirectly you can apply the knowledge of calligraphy to the art of Wushu, or vice versa.

These theories then become a language over which all art forms can communicate with each other. Thus to master one art with combined knowledge of these theories you can have profound insight into other arts you have not experienced directly. This is of course useful to your life. As I have said many times before Chinese Kung Fu can not be so simply labelled 'Martial Art'.

One cannot practice physically all day every day, musing on theory does not need to take away from training time.

[pazman]

when Chinese boxer struggles to progress, he resorts to Taoist magic. when western boxer struggles to progress, he ups the dose.

At the professional level, dosing up is cross cultural, as is invoking false, foreign gods.

http://prommanow.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/kimo-cross-tattoo.jpg

[bawang]

Didn't Taoist alchemists first distill testosterone from urine over 2000 years ago?

in traditional kung fu mainly raw animal testicles + alcohol

and opium before lei tai fight


At the professional level, dosing up is cross cultural, as is invoking false, foreign gods.

its ok, i pray to black jesus.

[Snipsky]

scribblings on papers and the musings of loons has little to do with the urgency of fisticuffs.

I highly doubt you know anything about fisticuffs aside from what you've read or seen in movies. just sayin.

[lkfmdc]

Well, going back to my OP...

I can demonstrate some very effective footwork, which I could explain via these theories ....

did theory create them OR

did the footwork always exist and they just found a way to explain them via these things?

Which came first

[Snipsky]

did the footwork always exist and they just found a way to explain them via these things?

Which came first

Simple honest question. Does it matter? in my opinion it shouldn't. as long as it exists

[lkfmdc]

Simple honest question. Does it matter? in my opinion it shouldn't. as long as it exists

honest answer...

in one sense, no it doesn't at all, I have tons of successful fighters who are not aware of these concepts...

yet sometimes it is useful as an instructor to have these ideas in my mind...

so maybe it matters based upon where you are at

[Kellen Bassette]

Well, going back to my OP...

I can demonstrate some very effective footwork, which I could explain via these theories ....

did theory create them OR

did the footwork always exist and they just found a way to explain them via these things?

Which came first

If I had to venture a guess, I would say they found a way to make existing foot work conform to the theories...people like to re-engineer things for some reason...

[Yum Cha]

I don't think the printed and graphic artifacts are necessary to learning, but they do have a purpose, one solved in other ways as well.

A smart fighter will be a better fighter.
Rote learning is one thing, but fundamental. Mindfulness in training gives you more responsive and strategic skills to augment those core tools. Training aids like that make people think and consider their training, try new things, explore and develop personal style, as they explore masterfully crafted indecipherably pluralistic memes.

Connecting thinking and doing is the proof of the fighter, not the training aids.

[Spiked]

Well, going back to my OP...

I can demonstrate some very effective footwork, which I could explain via these theories ....

did theory create them OR

did the footwork always exist and they just found a way to explain them via these things?

Which came first

The smooth skin of young Thai boys.... Heaven!

[bawang]

Sure, Dave. Demonstrate the effective footwork for us in a compliant situation and then a non-compliant situation to prove it works. Or you can just put up a video of a real fighter and claim he is doing magical Chinese footwork.

Chinese effection jus ituater you claim hen a re, Dave ing magical fork. Sure, Demon justrationst us ing magicand compliant put us inese footworks. Or you compliand then a real fork footwork for ant sit works. Dave inese footworks. Or us ing magical footworks.

[PalmStriker]

Chinese effection jus ituater you claim hen a re, Dave ing magical fork. Sure, Demon justrationst us ing magicand compliant put us inese footworks. Or you compliand then a real fork footwork for ant sit works. Dave inese footworks. Or us ing magical footworks. Agree for the most part but variations will still consist of Daoist solutions. :) Daoist Magical Fork Form: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b6SB6dU-KFA&feature=autoplay&list=ULgz0K2VyuEQc&index=2&playnext=2

[PalmStriker]

Demonstrations by the Celestial Master. Uptown Daodojo. :)

[Kellen Bassette]

Demonstrations by the Celestial Master. Uptown Daodojo. :)

What a strange coincidence...I just came across his website earlier tonight...he offers to teach taoist magic floating head battle power...for a fee of course...

No, really.....

[PalmStriker]

Cymac is a member of the KFM forum. http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/member.php?u=56515

[Kellen Bassette]

PM him, Cymac is a member of the KFM forum.

niceeee :p

[wenshu]

Sure, Dave. Demonstrate the effective footwork for us in a compliant situation and then a non-compliant situation to prove it works. Or you can just put up a video of a real fighter and claim he is doing magical Chinese footwork.

http://www.troll.me/images2/tool-bag-kid/you-only-live-once-not-in-cod-bro-thumb.jpg

[Scott R. Brown]

Simple honest question. Does it matter? in my opinion it shouldn't. as long as it exists

Not many questions or discussions on the BB matter. That doesn't mean they aren't interesting.


What a strange coincidence...I just came across his website earlier tonight...he offers to teach taoist magic floating head battle power...for a fee of course...

No, really.....


Cymac is a member of the KFM forum. http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/member.php?u=56515


niceeee :p

Hope you like the color yellow!:eek:

[Faux Newbie]

The source or theory behind something one finds useful is not particularly important, especially in Chinese metaphysics. It is either seen as useful or not.

Who cares what someone else uses to come up with ideas? Most of the analysis I've seen of using five elements is not particularly out there, even if the metaphysical basis is.

People approach Chinese philosophy and metaphysics as though it were Western philosophy and metaphysics. The difference is that, on the Chinese end, people actually sought to use it, which meant, in the long run, lots of practical approaches that may work regardless of whether the idea that inspired them is correct.

I don't know real fighters of any stripe not on the internet who worry about this at all. Not from judo, bjj, muay thai, boxing. Not a single one.

It's a hobby held by a narrow group who work at computers all day.

I discovered this by doing a reading from the i ching.

[Snipsky]

It's a hobby held by a narrow group who work at computers all day.

I discovered this by doing a reading from the i ching.

Well, i hear the real deal to study is the G Ching

[Faux Newbie]

Well, i hear the real deal to study is the G Ching

He not only sees the future in nacho cheese, but that the future is nacho cheese.

The forums are merely the first wave. We are in the fondu of the future, if you will.

[David Jamieson]

He not only sees the future in nacho cheese, but that the future is nacho cheese.

The forums are merely the first wave. We are in the fondu of the future, if you will.

I thought we were in the chips of the future and the cheese was like the spice that must flow to propel us forward as the great galactic nacho kung fu overlords?

Do we have different bibles or something? Is this Nacho religion?

[Faux Newbie]

I thought we were in the chips of the future and the cheese was like the spice that must flow to propel us forward as the great galactic nacho kung fu overlords?

Do we have different bibles or something? Is this Nacho religion?

The fonduemental question is, have you accepted cheesus?

[Yum Cha]

I thought we were in the chips of the future and the cheese was like the spice that must flow to propel us forward as the great galactic nacho kung fu overlords?

Do we have different bibles or something? Is this Nacho religion?

Dave, when drawing the G Ching, I think you pull 3 sets of 3 chips randomly from the Nachos, then line them up and read them according to the placement of the cheese, sour cream, etc....for example, covered with beans and a blob of sour cream - a moving chip, with wind and destruction (for the lactose intolerant) called the 'bubbling gut'.
just cheese, a stable, unmoving chip - the blocker. Obviously, you want to draw the more balanced chips, with a mix of ingredients more reflective in the complexity of the Tao G Ching. The superior man always knows that the balance of the Nacho draw is more important than the key chips....

[Faux Newbie]

Whenever I try to see my future using the G Ching, all I ever get is, "thread necromancy is in your future. Avoid Leftover Salmon shows in March. Winter is not the time for drastic change: stick to Weird Asia threads and kung fu beard to achieve utter harmony."

[TenTigers]

could be a mnemonic device, a learning tool. Different learning styles-visual, auditory, kinesthetic, require different methods.
Say I practice stepping out at 45 deg. angle. One person calls it traingle stepping.
Another person calls it seven star stepping, another calls it a diamond pattern, yet another calls it a plum flower step, etc
I think the technique came first and the names were added later,
-sometimes just to lend mystique.:rolleyes: