UFC's Lyoto Machida + His Wrestling Coach Kenny Johnson: Chi Sao + Takedown Defense D [Archive]

Frost

11-06-2013, 06:41 AM

I think they mention JKD in that clip and it seems that there has been a wider trend of JKD instructors getting into mma gyms.

Kenny mentioned it, but ive never heard any mention of it before in anything Machida does, Kenny probably looked at what they were doing with their hands and just assumed it was jkd sticking hands, either that or the guys there are playing around with it to warm up because Anderson sometimes plays around with goofy stuff lol
Either way Machida publically credits his fathers karate for his striking ability, his sumo training for his ability to defend the clinch, and his BJJ for his ground skills

There is a trend for some MMA gyms to bring in teachers of other styles in order to broaden they appeal and make more money (Mainly krav maga guys from what i see and im sure some jkd guys as well) i have yet to see them actually training any fighters at the gym just offering classes in their art

blackhouse would never bring in a jkd guy to teach anything it would add absolutely nothing to their game and take away from what they are doing, they already have the best striking, grappling and clinch coaches in the world (like Kenny) they really don’t need anything else

Paddington

11-06-2013, 06:50 AM

Thanks for the additional information Frost.

sanjuro_ronin

11-06-2013, 06:55 AM

KPM

11-06-2013, 07:59 AM

it isn't so, he was doing some hibred stuff mixing his close range karate hand fighting with his sumo hand fighting he has never had a wing chun class in his life, then what you have is someone classing it as chi Sao because they don't know any better :)

Nobody said it was specifically Wing Chun Chi Sao. Chi Sao just means "sticking hands." So from a rather generic perspective, what they are doing is "Chi Sao." And it bears a pretty good resemblance to the "Poon Sao" rolling that the Mainland versions of Wing Chun do. I used to roll with a 6th degree Black Belt in Kenpo using a loose "Poon Sao" platform. He considered it to be "Chi Sao" in a general sense.

Frost

11-06-2013, 08:25 AM

i will also say kenny johnson is a really nice guy and will take ill of no one and no art, so what he says in an interview and what he really thinks only those that have trained with him will know

I have also just remembered dan inosanto is a srudent of kennys so that might be where his referencing to jkd comes from

Wayfaring

11-06-2013, 08:31 AM

blackhouse would never bring in a jkd guy to teach anything it would add absolutely nothing to their game and take away from what they are doing, they already have the best striking, grappling and clinch coaches in the world (like Kenny) they really don’t need anything else

blackhouse is kind of a loose conglomerate gym rather than anything with a head coach putting together a gameplan. any one of the athletes there can bring in anyone they want. a friend of mine got brought out for a week for one of Rashad's camps for wrestling. Rashad didn't use him at all but he ended up working with Overeem most of the week. The fighters kind of do what they want for camps. If one of them wanted to bring in a jkd guy, or a ballet dancer, or Steven Seagal, they could easily.

Spiked

11-06-2013, 08:50 AM

Kenny mentioned it, but ive never heard any mention of it before in anything Machida does, Kenny probably looked at what they were doing with their hands and just assumed it was jkd sticking hands, either that or the guys there are playing around with it to warm up because Anderson sometimes plays around with goofy stuff lol
Either way Machida publically credits his fathers karate for his striking ability, his sumo training for his ability to defend the clinch, and his BJJ for his ground skills

There is a trend for some MMA gyms to bring in teachers of other styles in order to broaden they appeal and make more money (Mainly krav maga guys from what i see and im sure some jkd guys as well) i have yet to see them actually training any fighters at the gym just offering classes in their art

blackhouse would never bring in a jkd guy to teach anything it would add absolutely nothing to their game and take away from what they are doing, they already have the best striking, grappling and clinch coaches in the world (like Kenny) they really don’t need anything else

Frost is just mad because we took his colonies and reduced his country to the little island that it is

Spiked

11-06-2013, 09:08 AM

The chi Sao in that clip was lame. There was no reason for it. They were just spinning their hands.

Kellen Bassette

11-06-2013, 04:14 PM

Okinawan arts have a "chi sao" type of training called "udekitae", or something like that.
More 'arm rubbing" then chi sao per say but at the higher levels it is very soft and yielding like "chi sao" can be.

Yes Karate has it's own "chi sao", I'm not sure on the Japanese name...but lots of schools of Okinawan Karate translate it to "sticky hands" as well. There are lots of variations; and many styles derived of southern Kung Fu do some form of sticky hands...

anerlich

11-07-2013, 12:38 AM

Frost

11-07-2013, 02:54 AM

Frost is just mad because we took his colonies and reduced his country to the little island that it is

not mad bit annoyed you always arrive late for the big wars though (WW1 And 2) and lets not even go into the lend lease agreement......im just annoyed people make these posts as if someone doing something they think is similar to what they do in any way validates how they train and their art....
We have had it before with people on this forum claiming because machida fights hoe they think a wing Chun guy would fight it validates their art, it doesn't it validates his art and if you want to look like him maybe you should train like he does

Not to mention if the only example you can find of how you art should work in a real fight is someone who has never trained it, then maybe there is something really wrong with your art

Vajramusti

11-07-2013, 05:15 AM

not mad bit annoyed you always arrive late for the big wars though (WW1 And 2) and lets not even go into the lend lease agreement......im just annoyed people make these posts as if someone doing something they think is similar to what they do in any way validates how they train and their art....
We have had it before with people on this forum claiming because machida fights hoe they think a wing Chun guy would fight it validates their art, it doesn't it validates his art and if you want to look like him maybe you should train like he does

Not to mention if the only example you can find of how you art should work in a real fight is someone who has never trained it, then maybe there is something really wrong with your art
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Agree that it is silly to validate one's wing chun by claiming that someone in another style is doing some aspect of wing chun. But practices from different arts can be illustrative of similar principles, in this case sharpening of tactile skills by using handwork that looks a bit like some mainland chi sao. Tyson in his prime illustrated some parallel principles before wandering away from Cus D'Amatos principles before the Douglas fight....peekaboo, center closed hand formation, taking the inner line etc.

Drinking of urine by Machida does not validate ayurvedists as fighters.

It's problematic for me to generalize about wing chun since often the differences are greater than the similarities in what wing chun people do.

BTW/imo for some wing chun people- wing chun can be effective at quite different ranges including clinching. You tube materials , snips from the internet and the like give us incomplete views on many subjects.

Kellen Bassette

11-07-2013, 06:37 AM

not mad bit annoyed you always arrive late for the big wars though (WW1 And 2)
Well we're making up for it by starting all the new wars...:o

and lets not even go into the lend lease agreement......im just annoyed people make these posts as if someone doing something they think is similar to what they do in any way validates how they train and their art....
We have had it before with people on this forum claiming because machida fights hoe they think a wing Chun guy would fight it validates their art, it doesn't it validates his art and if you want to look like him maybe you should train like he does

I don't think he would train and film an exercise, if he didn't feel there was some value to it...but instead of looking for something he does that you also do, I think people should be wondering what aspects of his training don't I do, in my training. Also, how much of his training time is spent on an exercise like this?

Lots of styles have some variation of Chi Sao training, as a minor part of their curriculum; but I don't think there is any style that puts such a major emphasis on it as Wing Chun. As I've stated before, I think Chi Sao makes more sense as a drill to enhance elements of clinch game, instead of striking game. Notice Machida is working it with a wrestling coach...

Frost

11-07-2013, 07:23 AM

Well we're making up for it by starting all the new wars...:o

I don't think he would train and film an exercise, if he didn't feel there was some value to it...but instead of looking for something he does that you also do, I think people should be wondering what aspects of his training don't I do, in my training. Also, how much of his training time is spent on an exercise like this?

Lots of styles have some variation of Chi Sao training, as a minor part of their curriculum; but I don't think there is any style that puts such a major emphasis on it as Wing Chun. As I've stated before, I think Chi Sao makes more sense as a drill to enhance elements of clinch game, instead of striking game. Notice Machida is working it with a wrestling coach...

Now all you have to do is actually win one on your own without anyone else helping :)
That’s the thing when the cameras are around, they want to see different unusual stuff, stuff that will make the viewers hang around, which is why on those behind the scenes ufc shows you see them doing the tyre flips battle rope and kettlebell until you are sick stuff, and not the hours of basic strength work with a barbell or the hours of roadwork they do, it makes for interesting viewing regardless of if its only a small part of their training cycle

Look at the stance Machida hits at the end of the sticky hands bit, he is messing around for the camera and having a laugh, how serious he is about that sort of training is anyones guess and as you say how much of it makes its way into his serious training I have no idea

Machida he is not working his chi sao stuff with his wrestling coach (in the clip Machida is doing his sticking with someone else NOT his wrestling coach)Kenny is working on getting machida to use his unique skillset: fast hands, not overly commited hand attacks, quick evasive feet, fast stance work (all which seem to come from his karate training and sparring), to aid his takedown defense, none of their work in that clip showed any hand contact work or chi sao work of any kind.

Vajramusti

11-07-2013, 07:44 AM

[QUOTE=Kellen Bassette;1256339] As I've stated before, I think Chi Sao makes more sense as a drill to enhance elements of clinch game, instead of striking game. Notice Machida is working it with a wrestling coach
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IMO- Ip Man chi sao in good lines is a lab not just a drill. As one learns more wing chun it can be incorporated into chi sao. Hence- the timings and the various forms of power help - not just in
clinching, but in the striking, throwing and breaking and defense functions.

Best not to generalize about all of wing chun. Most really talk about their wing chun.

Kellen Bassette

11-07-2013, 08:29 AM

Machida he is not working his chi sao stuff with his wrestling coach (in the clip Machida is doing his sticking with someone else NOT his wrestling coach)Kenny is working on getting machida to use his unique skillset: fast hands, not overly commited hand attacks, quick evasive feet, fast stance work (all which seem to come from his karate training and sparring), to aid his takedown defense, none of their work in that clip showed any hand contact work or chi sao work of any kind.

My bad, I only watched it once through, didn't notice it wasn't the coach...was just implying the drill may make more sense as from a clinch wrestling standpoint than a striking standpoint. I know most won't agree with me on that....

Frost

11-07-2013, 08:38 AM

My bad, I only watched it once through, didn't notice it wasn't the coach...was just implying the drill may make more sense as from a clinch wrestling standpoint than a striking standpoint. I know most won't agree with me on that....

no problem I only watched it once two but I know Kenny so could recognise his ugly mug:) fast hands and good tactile reactions will always help in grappling , indeed the sticking my teacher does in our sourhern systems flows in to clinch range, the question is is wing chun chi sao the most efficent may of gaining those clinch related skills......

Kellen Bassette

11-07-2013, 08:43 AM

Best not to generalize about all of wing chun. Most really talk about their wing chun.

I'm not a Chunner, so I have to generalize a bit. I am well aware there can be big differences in training methods and theory from school to school, even within the same system/line.

Chi Sao isn't unique to WC, I think what may be unique to WC though, is the varying degrees of importance and emphasis placed on the method. I'm not for doing away with these kind of training methods....I just think the bulk of one's training is better spent devolving and applying the fundamental fighting skills of a system; and any auxiliary methods used to enhance certain qualities of a skill, should take a far smaller role.

Kellen Bassette

11-07-2013, 08:47 AM

nindeed the sticking my teacher does in our sourhern systems flows in to clinch range, the question is is wing chun chi sao the most efficent may of gaining those clinch related skills......

Probably not; but I think there is some merit to kind of "mixing it up" a bit. It keeps the training from becoming stale and keeps the mind sharp.

I don't think there is any danger with spending some time on a drill that may not be the "best" or most efficient method, so long as you are spending more time on those good and efficient methods; and your supplementary work isn't in conflict with the core ideas and mechanics.

kung fu fighter

11-08-2013, 06:52 AM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aMQZeq8HlAg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JRJMTOadNTE

Frost

11-08-2013, 03:26 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aMQZeq8HlAg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JRJMTOadNTE

ok so what exactly are these clips meant to show :confused: that's big country a man known for his wild overhand punching style, granite like chin and bjj blackbelt, secretly loves chi Sao and wing chun and that's why he wins in the Ufc?? Event though his style is about as un wing chun as you can get??

Dragonzbane76

11-09-2013, 02:03 AM

lol big country always reminded me of a tank abbot type of fighter but with a little more polish. :)

anerlich

11-09-2013, 08:14 PM

I can't buy that drill being some sort of grappling drill. It looks to me like some sort of defense against striking.

Wrestling already has drills to develop attributes for wrestling roughly analogous to what chi sao does for striking. They are called pummelling and handfighting.

WC makes much of chi sao developed sensitivity. Grapplers need the same sensitivity but in multiple ranges and planes and for the entire body. Good grappling is as much about redirecting and borrowing force as is good WC. I very much doubt that a decent grappler would find their game enormously enhanced by learning chi sao, other than perhaps as an interesting diversion with some possible marginal benefits.

Kellen Bassette

11-09-2013, 08:20 PM

I very much doubt that a decent grappler would find their game enormously enhanced by learning chi sao, other than perhaps as an interesting diversion with some possible marginal benefits.

The same could be said for a decent striker.

anerlich

11-09-2013, 08:25 PM

The same could be said for a decent striker.

No argument from me.

Syn7

11-09-2013, 10:09 PM

lol big country always reminded me of a tank abbot type of fighter but with a little more polish. :)

Compared to Roy Nelson, Tank Abbot is nothing. He had some wrestling and he could hit hard. Not to say he didn't have his qualities, it's just the Nelson is on a another level. It's more than a a lil polish. Better chin, better hands, better wrestling, he actually has a submission game. Nelson is no dummy. He also isn't a complete douche, which is something a can't say about Abbott. I gotta say, I did like watching him try to throw people out of the cage though.

YouKnowWho

11-10-2013, 03:09 AM

IMO aspects of chi sao could be elevated by utilizing some of the principles found in grappling especially in the clinch, but unfortunately this may contradict some of the principles of traditional WC chi sao.

When you protect your center from inside out, a right Tan Shou followed by a left Tan Shou, you can wrap both of your opponent's arms. You can then do whatever you want after that.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwX9-7fkD0Y

As showing in the above clip, if your opponent's arm spins with your arm, you may need to wrap his arm more than once. Now we are not talking about straight line any more. If you don't go beyond WC principle, you will never be able to open that "grappling" door.

kung fu fighter

11-10-2013, 02:33 PM

Now we are not talking about straight line any more. If you don't go beyond WC principle, you will never be able to open that "grappling" door.

who says that's beyond WC principle, maybe in the yip man linage that you study. I can tell by your post you obviously haven't been exposed to the mainland wing chun linages lol. This is basic WC stuff.

YouKnowWho

11-10-2013, 07:13 PM

who says that's beyond WC principle, maybe in the yip man linage that you study. I can tell by your post you obviously haven't been exposed to the mainland wing chun linages lol. This is basic WC stuff.

I have to admit that the only WC knowledge that I have is from the Yip Man system.

Could you put up a clip to make your point on this?

In another forum, someone said.

"Wing Chun has both lines and circles. Very small, efficient ones. It has been said that a circle shrunken infinitely becomes a point, which is also a section of a line..."

I'm still trying to figure that out.

kung fu fighter

11-10-2013, 07:34 PM

I have to admit that the only WC knowledge that I have is from the Yip Man system.

Could you put up a clip to make your point on this? In another forum, someone said.

"Wing Chun has both lines and circles. Very small, efficient ones. It has been said that a circle shrunken infinitely becomes a point, which is also a section of a line..."

I'm still trying to figure that out.

check out the san sik (two-man drills) in this footage
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KJ9K-W-WWzU
Here are some additional footage
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X7jflr0uZcc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9XQ0j53-0zE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yPGa2wrSiAk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TeBmokwsTm0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FeAxb7aqsfE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mYhJn9OfeBs&list=PL02EDBEF26759329C
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5KpRjsFlL1Q
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lKc1cQRTPo0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cm7vjAqAvjg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k8f2-adtfG8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IN5Ix9hYYb4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HxQz4rJqpvg

YouKnowWho

11-10-2013, 07:38 PM

check out the san sik (two-man drills) in this footage http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KJ9K-W-WWzU

That's good circular movement. Thanks for sharing. Now I have more faith in the WC system. For a while, I thought something important is missing.

I like the double outside in circle very much. It's very similar to this training.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0jI_AOWtIrA

kung fu fighter

11-10-2013, 09:04 PM

That's good circular movement. Thanks for sharing. Now I have more faith in the WC system. For a while, I thought something important is missing.

You are most welcome! I am always willing to help fellow wing chuner's on their journey. I was where you are about 15 years ago when i first started to research and explore the various interpretations of mainland wing chun, except at that time almost nothing was available publicly. I was fortunate enough to meet the right people whom helped me along the way, a big thank you to each and every one of them. Through my research of the various mainland wing chun linages, I feel I got a more complete understanding of what the art of wing chun was intended to be when our Ancestors developed it. It is a very complete system for what it was intended to do.

Best of luck on your wing chun journey!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ob8frewJolg

JPinAZ

11-11-2013, 10:31 AM

"Wing Chun has both lines and circles. Very small, efficient ones. It has been said that a circle shrunken infinitely becomes a point, which is also a section of a line..."

I'm still trying to figure that out.

IMO, this is a comment about WC's ideas of economy of motion & maximum efficiency.

That's good circular movement. Thanks for sharing. Now I have more faith in the WC system. For a while, I thought something important is missing.

I only watched the frist 3 clips KFF posted and IMO they had little to do with WC as I understand it from both HFY (non red boat) perspective, as well as my previous Ip Man/red boat training. To me, they were missing the most important and basic concept that makes wing chun 'wing chun', and that's centerline - No centerline, No wing chun.

YouKnowWho

11-11-2013, 12:40 PM

To me, they were missing the most important and basic concept that makes wing chun 'wing chun', and that's centerline - No centerline, No wing chun.
Was the "circular" principle existed in WC but somebody removed it? Or was that principle not in WC and somebody added it in? As long as this principle is in the WC system today, why should we care? I'm glad that Kung Fu Fighter had pointed it out that some WC system in mainland China has that principle.

You can protect your centerline from "outside in" as well as from "inside out". You don't have to choose "either ... or ...". To develop your hook punch has no conflict with your jab, cross development.

This kind of thinking, "my style doesn't do this", "This is against my style principle" is not healthy IMO.

JPinAZ

11-13-2013, 10:49 AM

I wasn't just talking about just protecting your center space from a given direction. And I agree, you can do it from in to out or out to in. I was talking about Wing Chun centerline principles that I didn't see in the clips I watched. IMO, 'Protecting the line' is a basic idea of centerline for early students IMO (no offence meant to early students!).

Wing Chun centerline principle is more than just protecting a plane in front of you. It also has to do with your own CL & gravity (self centerline), initial setup & proper facing to your opponent along with engagement & contact (A-to-B centerline), and finally gravity with your opponent (more based on energy). And I hardly saw any of these thing in the first 3 clips

IMO, it's not about what's healthy or style, it's about what is and what isn't Wing Chun based on principle. And it's really simple - No Centerline principle, no Wing Chun ;)