Youknowwho and others please comment

[lkfmdc]

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=4962335716701&notif_t=like

so what do you think about form and several interpretations of same movement?

[jimbob]

I enjoy watching you teach Dave and was bummed when i was in NYC last summer and wasn't able to drop in (wife had a ruptured disk - was veeerry slow going and needed help...).

Are you asking what we think about your interpretation of this movement as show in the clip (makes perfect sense), or are you asking in general what we think about multiple interpretations of a movement within a form? (which also makes sense some of the time).

I don't necessarily think that every move in a form is hidden. I DO think that things have become so obscured by people not understanding what they're doing that multiple interpretations are now par for the course.

honestly - I think people first trained with partners - just as we see in your clip. When they had no-one to train with they probably mimicked the movements in the air as best they could. Maybe someone at some stage thought this was the super important secret part of the training, passed down the importance of form (instead of partner work) and we have the misguided focus on forms work we see today.

Along the way, those students became teachers, their students started teaching, each person's ego demands they leave their own little contribution and voila - multiple interpretations, many of them ludicrous, especially when the teacher has never been in a fight.

Have you seen some of the 'single whip' interpretations out there?

[lkfmdc]

I enjoy watching you teach Dave and was bummed when i was in NYC last summer and wasn't able to drop in (wife had a ruptured disk - was veeerry slow going and needed help...).



Sorry to hear that, hope she is ok





Are you asking what we think about your interpretation of this movement as show in the clip (makes perfect sense), or are you asking in general what we think about multiple interpretations of a movement within a form? (which also makes sense some of the time).



I open the floor to both discussions....

YKW has at times seemed to say that northern long fist styles don't have throws, yet in this we see possibilities

And, of course, in the broader scheme of things, what are forms and what do they have to teach us.......




I don't necessarily think that every move in a form is hidden. I DO think that things have become so obscured by people not understanding what they're doing that multiple interpretations are now par for the course.



I don't know if "hidden" is the right word... obscured? oh definitely, we see some horrible applications, applications that defy common sense at times

A two person drill is explicit, forms are not... is this a positive or a negative or just a cautionary tale?




Have you seen some of the 'single whip' interpretations out there?

I have seen a lot on that....

[Faux Newbie]

In agreement with Jimbob.

I think one thing that works for and against those able to access more classical sources is that, if one accepts problems with interpretations now, what period and source should be accepted as not having the same problems? Written documents cannot be guaranteed to represent all the best martial arts and ideas from earlier periods, so these sources would likely have errors or omissions as well. Even sources decrying the fakes of their day likely had their own biases and face to think of.

It's good to study these sources, but defining all practices by them could prove problematic.

I've always liked that throw.

[MightyB]

so what do you think about form and several interpretations of same movement?

Yes - it happens all the time.

---

I sometimes don't know what to think about forms.

[sanjuro_ronin]

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=4962335716701&notif_t=like

so what do you think about form and several interpretations of same movement?

In Karate we have bunkai which are the "typical" application of the forms and then we have "himitsu" which are the "hidden" applications.
Many moves are throws and sweeps as opposed to strikes and such.
Especially in Okinawan styles.
That said, I have seen many people "create" the application for the move, rather than the move having been that application.

[YouKnowWho]

YKW has at times seemed to say that northern long fist styles don't have throws, yet in this we see possibilities...
That move in your clip is called "擓(Kuai) - Leg bending lift". David C, K. Lin is very good at it. He could use it to lift up a 300 lb guys and stand on single leg. The 1st time he did to his 300 lb student, it scared that student big time.

When GM Han did his Tantui form, did he think about this move? If we look at this clip, it seems to me that his "intention" is not in it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yUcCsvTemrw&feature=youtu.be

I like to look for "intent". A pulling and a punching will have different "intent" when you train solo drill even if your leg may perform exactly the same move.

[YouKnowWho]

I have seen many people "create" the application for the move, rather than the move having been that application.

Sometime we may give too much credit to the original form creator that he doesn't deserve. Here is one of my favor jokes.

A: Dear master, in the middle of your form, you rotate your hip followed by a smile on your face. Is that one of your training secret? Are you willing to share it?
B: Sorry! I just far*ed

[lkfmdc]

When GM Han did his Tantui form, did he think about this move? If we look at this clip, it seems to me that his "intention" is not in it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yUcCsvTemrw&feature=youtu.be

I like to look for "intent". A pulling and a punching will have different "intent" when you train solo drill even if your leg may perform exactly the same move.

the move you posted is punch and OPPOSITE side lift leg, this I agree with, I do NOT think it is the same movement ... in my example, punch and lift SAME SIDE leg...

So you think there is no throwing in long fist styles?

[Iron_Eagle_76]

In Karate we have bunkai which are the "typical" application of the forms and then we have "himitsu" which are the "hidden" applications.
Many moves are throws and sweeps as opposed to strikes and such.
Especially in Okinawan styles.
That said, I have seen many people "create" the application for the move, rather than the move having been that application.


I think this is one of the main reasons for so much dissension in TCMA, there are too many "what ifs" and not enough "this is". However, if a seasoned martial artist can find a different application for a movement, I consider this evolving the art rather than changing it, but that is personal opinion. There are several things such as stances, hand postures, body shifts, ect. found in forms that, when done correctly, can be applied to throws or grappling. Particularly if that person has grappling experience in another art.

If it works, that's all that matters. :)

[lkfmdc]

I have seen many people "create" the application for the move, rather than the move having been that application.


Sometime we may give too much credit to the original form creator that he doesn't deserve.



of course on both points, but it does seem that throwing, tripping, sweeping and wrestling in general has been lost from our TCMA when it was supposed to be there...

maybe I will film some specific examples later this week

[lkfmdc]

I sometimes don't know what to think about forms.

are they just the product of an illiterate / semi literate culture and outdated by modern circumstances?

[YouKnowWho]

So you think there is no throwing in long fist styles?
Let me put it this way. When I trained the longfist system, my longfist teacher didn't pair us to drill the front cut over and over. To me, it's more important the training method than the "possible" hidden information.

Longfist has some throws such as

- front cut (Tantui #4),
- foot sweep (Mai Fu Chuan #2),
- leg spring (Pao Chuan #3),
- ...

but as far as hip throw, leg lift, leg twist, shoulder throw, ... I haven't be able to find it in the longfist system yet.

May be the "hip throw - mother of all throws" should be a good guideline. If a style has non-body contact throws but don't have body contact throw (such as hip throw), I would say that style is not a throwing system.

By the way, I had asked you the following question in another thread:

"Do you think the WC system has throws in their 3 forms?"

I would like to hear your opinion on this. To prove that all TCMA systems have throw may be difficult. But if we can just find one counter example, we can dis-prove this assumption.

[Dale Dugas]

Wang Shifu,

Are there any neck surrounding/removing the helmet from the head concepts in Zhang Quan?

Also do you see more arm bars/elbow locks/shoulder locks in Zhang Quan?

Thank you.

[YouKnowWho]

Wang Shifu,

Are there any neck surrounding/removing the helmet from the head concepts in Zhang Quan?

Also do you see more arm bars/elbow locks/shoulder locks in Zhang Quan?

Thank you.

There are a lot of locking skill in the longfist system. It even has a special form designed for locking skill training.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M4LVjwPGhQg

There are also few grip fighting skills in it. But it's just here and there, some random pieces information. It doesn't have a "complete package" to train the throwing art.

As far as I can remember, I can't find "head lock", but I'm sure "helmet remove (horizontal palm strike)" is hidden somewhere in the form.

[Dale Dugas]

Thank you, Shifu!

Thank you for the video.

Han Shifu's daughter lives and teaches in Cambridge, MA.

I saw a photo of Han Shifu's hands and saw he had strong pointed fingers. I can only imagine what Chin Na/Kam Na was like with those digging into you.

[YouKnowWho]

Han Shifu's daughter lives and teaches in Cambridge, MA.

I visited her husband's school almost 30 years ago. Is her husband Liang Ji-Tzi still teaching?

[jimbob]

A two person drill is explicit, forms are not... is this a positive or a negative or just a cautionary tale?


See - I think 'forms' were probably originally quite explicit. If I follow my line of thinking, it was just some guy practising without his buddy who for whatever reason didn't show up that day. Over time, people just forgot about the other guy in the picture.

The cautionary tale lies in ritualising things without knowing why - like the story of the zen master who kept his pet cat close by when he meditated. He dies, his student likes the cat and keeps it around, others monks visit, see the cat, go back to their own monasteries and get their own cats.....and before you know it, it's impossible to meditate without a cat. No-one has the faintest idea why, they only know it's vitally important that meditation is done 'this way'.

I think the vast majority of what we see in traditional styles these days are these 'cats'.

[MightyB]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gt8RRQx-j9A&feature=share

They start with a form that's for throwing and then they show all applications.

[Dale Dugas]

I visited her husband's school almost 30 years ago. Is her husband Liang Ji-Tzi still teaching?

He is still teaching at their school in Cambridge.

[Dale Dugas]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gt8RRQx-j9A&feature=share

They start with a form that's for throwing and then they show all applications.

Good stuff from Shifu Liang Shao Yu

[MightyB]

Good stuff from Shifu Liang Shao Yu

that's why I'm ambivalent about forms. Every solo form that's in mantis is also a two person set if you have a Sifu that can show you the "Ling" version. Taken as a set, it's improbable that it'd work out the way it's in the form, but taken as specific moves, set ups, counters, and combos - they do work. Can all of the techniques be learned without the forms? Yes - but would it be as fun to do it that way? IDK

[Dale Dugas]

Forms are repositories of concepts and principles.

[lkfmdc]

Let me put it this way. When I trained the longfist system, my longfist teacher didn't pair us to drill



but this is endemic problem for most CMA...having technique somewhere "in the system" but not drilling it in a way it can actually be used...




May be the "hip throw - mother of all throws" should be a good guideline. If a style has non-body contact throws but don't have body contact throw (such as hip throw), I would say that style is not a throwing system.



So many people teach taiji push hands as some retarded at a distance playing hands, very few do it as actually grappling skill... these are problems with CMA at large... .to much unrealistic training...





"Do you think the WC system has throws in their 3 forms?"

I would like to hear your opinion on this. To prove that all TCMA systems have throw may be difficult. But if we can just find one counter example, we can dis-prove this assumption.

Wing Chun people are most sensitive of all CMA people, it becomes a bore to discuss this system because no one wants to learn anything. I have found some good techniques to counter clinch and throw, and even this they say "insults their tradition"




See - I think 'forms' were probably originally quite explicit. If I follow my line of thinking, it was just some guy practising without his buddy who for whatever reason didn't show up that day. Over time, people just forgot about the other guy in the picture.



Well, a few moves in the air, everyone does this, even "MMA people" (LOL)... but when it becomes ritualized, well, again this is special burden of CMA... huge forms and those who have forgotten what they are really about



Forms are repositories of concepts and principles.

You need this if you are illiterate or semi literate... well, in that case, for many we still need them :D

[TenTigers]

well, in my case, you're preaching to the choir. I always advocate looking for as many possibilities of applications of forms. It's the way I was "raised."

My first Kenpo teacher used to say,
"Make it work." If the technique didn't work for you, then find a way to make it work.
Sifu James Tsang taught Bak Mei Jik Bo Kuen to the class, then took the first move and said,
"Break into groups and find me five applications to this move."
When I asked Sifu Robert Chu, why Wing Chun didn't have claws, he demonstrated the huen sao and grab
-but emphasized the grab, articulating his fingers.
"Who says this isn't a claw?"
My own reading taught me that every move in a form has Da, Tek, Na and Suht.
A former teacher, who outweighed me by a hundred pounds, would show techniques that he with his size, could pull off on me, but I would never attempt against someone his size, so I worked to find ways to make it happen.
Tuhon Chris Sayoc taught to cut the wrist at long range, the brachial artery at medium range, and the carotid artery at close range-same technique, same movement.
I applied this to striking-limb destruction at mid range, strike to the head at close range-same technique.
Shuai Jiao neck surrounding is sow choy-
was it meant to be a throw in Hung-Ga? Who knows? Who cares?
It IS in MY Hung-Ga. If it isn't in yours, well, then you are at a loss.

Learning other styles, thinking outside the box, opened my mind to what I had before me.
preach on.

[mooyingmantis]

YKW has at times seemed to say that northern long fist styles don't have throws, yet in this we see possibilities

First, nice throw you demonstrated in your original clip.

Second, as for the form interpretation as it relates to long fist, they are different. If you watch John's video, as in many long fist forms, it is the rear leg that is lifted in relation to the lead punch. In your video you lift your lead leg in relation to the lead punch.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yUcCsvTemrw&feature=youtu.be

[lkfmdc]

Second, as for the form interpretation as it relates to long fist, they are different. If you watch John's video, as in many long fist forms, it is the rear leg that is lifted in relation to the lead punch. In your video you lift your lead leg in relation to the lead punch.



already mentioned this and

http://i43.tower.com/images/mm117150169/shaolin-long-fist-kung-fu-advanced-sequences-part-nicholas-c-yang-dvd-cover-art.jpg

http://www.beijingkungfu.com/What_We_Teach/BLFImageC.jpg

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_0Rlc85iYaeE/TIMpXth91MI/AAAAAAAABrg/8batdpmSyQ0/s400/ChaQuan.JPG

there are indeed examples of lifted leg same side arm movement

[Dragonzbane76]

throw this out there...

maybe it was originally taught that way and over time it was taught and taught and taught and it lost its original application and changed. I've ran across many forms that people have in a system and one teaches it one way and another teaches it another. In a "general" statement I've seen many of the TCMA community shy away from the grappling/throwing portions the art in tcma. not to say that some do it differently. if that majority teach something maybe they mold it to be something other than what it originally was? don't know.

[IronWeasel]

of course on both points, but it does seem that throwing, tripping, sweeping and wrestling in general has been lost from our TCMA when it was supposed to be there...

maybe I will film some specific examples later this week



I learned Tai Chi and assumed that all techniques were strikes, blocks and kicks.

THEN I learned Shuai Chiao and the throwing applications within Tai Chi became apparent to me.

My experience has been that a student must be taught the basics and principles of a throwing art before they will be able to visualize the application within a form.

[YouKnowWho]

already mentioned this and

http://i43.tower.com/images/mm117150169/shaolin-long-fist-kung-fu-advanced-sequences-part-nicholas-c-yang-dvd-cover-art.jpg

http://www.beijingkungfu.com/What_We_Teach/BLFImageC.jpg

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_0Rlc85iYaeE/TIMpXth91MI/AAAAAAAABrg/8batdpmSyQ0/s400/ChaQuan.JPG

there are indeed examples of lifted leg same side arm movement

I'm still looking for the "intend". In all those pictures that you have posted, I just don't see that "body rotation intend".

Here is a foot sweep solo drill.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hejtMbbApyk

Here is the application:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uOcqK7LZCn0&feature=youtu.be

It's easy to see that a strong "body rotation intend" shown in both clips. The longfist form just don't have this kind of strong intention for

- body rotation,
- head touch knee,
- leg back kick straight up.

[YouKnowWho]

a student must be taught the basics and principles of a throwing are before they will be able to visualize the application within a form.

Agree with you 100% there. After you have learned the throwing principles, whether it exists in your forms or not is no longer important. We should not let forms to set boundary for us.


Are there any neck surrounding concepts in Zhang Quan?
If we look at this clip.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YexRTD9vujE&feature=youtu.be

The elbow bending does look like "head lock". Please notice that the arm came back from a straight punch instead of from a haymaker. Also the other arm has no arm pulling intention.

If we say that the form creator tried to hide "head lock" in his form, I would say the form creator did not deserve that credit.


Wing Chun people are most sensitive of all CMA people, it becomes a bore to discuss this system because no one wants to learn anything. I have found some good techniques to counter clinch and throw, and even this they say "insults their tradition".

'"Most" of them want to keep their system "pure" and refuse "cross training". I had used the WC Bong Shou from a neck tie position all the time.

[Dragonzbane76]

After you have learned the throwing principles, whether it exists in your forms or not is no longer important. We should not let forms to set boundary for us.

exactly! I've always felt that forms confine and don't allow for more abstract thinking. Like it was set in stone and that was it. If a teacher thought it was done for a single purpose then they taught it that way with no room for "outside the box" Not say all just in general. I've had teachers that taught form apps. with many different meaning but I've also had those that teach a singular way.

[Faux Newbie]

Form is for reference. No one reads Chekhov because he had a great dictionary. No one asked Hemingway to release another thesaurus.

[YouKnowWho]

the move you posted is punch and OPPOSITE side lift leg, this I agree with, I do NOT think it is the same movement ... in my example, punch and lift SAME SIDE leg...
This one has the same side arm and leg. The "intend" is not there because the body is not rotating.

http://imageshack.us/a/img847/6121/kungfudemo.jpg

[mooyingmantis]

If a teacher thought it was done for a single purpose then they taught it that way with no room for "outside the box" Not say all just in general. I've had teachers that taught form apps. with many different meaning but I've also had those that teach a singular way.

One of my past Chinese teachers was like this. He taught one application for a move in a form. He chided others who saw any other applications to the movement. I believe that he was correct in believing that the original creator of a form had one application in mind when they created the form.

However, I do not believe that it is wrong to allow other interpretations of a movement. If the same body mechanics can be used multiple ways, so be it.

[LaRoux]

Form is for reference. No one reads Chekhov because he had a great dictionary. No one asked Hemingway to release another thesaurus.

Getting fighting moves from a form is about a useful as getting fighting moves from reading Chekhov or Hemingway.

[GoldenBrain]

Getting fighting moves from a form is about a useful as getting fighting moves from reading Chekhov or Hemingway.

I hear you say this a lot, but I really don't get your line of thinking in this regard. There are all manner of punches, kicks, throws and other applications in forms. Forms are just one way to catalog techniques and body mechanics. Isn't a front kick, straight right punch…etc. still a front kick, straight right punch…etc. no matter if it is in a form or practiced individually?

Also, I don't think there's anybody here suggesting forms are the only way to practice/learn fighting techniques. It's only a small percentage of the entire package. You still have to hit a heavy bag, lift weight, grapple, spar…etc. or you won't' have a clue how to use the cataloged techniques that are in the forms or taught separately.

[YouKnowWho]

After so many years of TCMA training, kicking to the groin and punching to the face is still one of my favor initial attacks. It came from the most basic longfist form Taitui #1 (the 1st combo of the most basic form).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xNlPktNreXM

[LaRoux]

I hear you say this a lot, but I really don't get your line of thinking in this regard. There are all manner of punches, kicks, throws and other applications in forms. Forms are just one way to catalog techniques and body mechanics. Isn't a front kick, straight right punch…etc. still a front kick, straight right punch…etc. no matter if it is in a form or practiced individually?

Also, I don't think there's anybody here suggesting forms are the only way to practice/learn fighting techniques. It's only a small percentage of the entire package. You still have to hit a heavy bag, lift weight, grapple, spar…etc. or you won't' have a clue how to use the cataloged techniques that are in the forms or taught separately.

Just look at the ridiculousness of trying to pull out grappling applications from the forms in this thread for a perfect example of how ridiculous the whole pulling out techniques from forms is.

Valid techniques come from application not from a catalog.

[GoldenBrain]

Just look at the ridiculousness of trying to pull out grappling applications from the forms in this thread for a perfect example of how ridiculous the whole pulling out techniques from forms is.

Valid techniques come from application not from a catalog.

I agree about the grappling. It's hard if not impossible to make a form for grappling moves, especially ground grappling moves, and you need a partner to completely understand the techniques. There are however valid striking, locking, throwing and sweeping techniques in forms but you absolutely have to train them with a partner at some point, and participate in sparring to fully understand their application.

The way you word it makes it seem as though you mean "any" fighting applications from forms is ridiculous. If the practitioner is not taking things beyond the form then they are limiting themselves, but that still doesn't mean the application in the form is any less valid.

[LaRoux]

I agree about the grappling. It's hard if not impossible to make a form for grappling moves, especially ground grappling moves, and you need a partner to completely understand the techniques. There are however valid striking, locking, throwing and sweeping techniques in forms but you absolutely have to train them with a partner at some point, and participate in sparring to fully understand their application.

The way you word it makes it seem as though you mean "any" fighting applications from forms is ridiculous. If the practitioner is not taking things beyond the form then they are limiting themselves, but that still doesn't mean the application in the form is any less valid.

Any fighting applications taken from forms is ridiculous.

[LaRoux]

Even Judo and Jujutsu have Kata.

It's just a stupid for them as it is for any other system.

And you won't find judo practitioners trying to pull out techniques from their katas. They learn their techniques in practice against partners.

[Jimbo]

Judo katas are two-person practice. They aren't the same as karate kata/kung fu sets.

[bawang]

there are no secret wrestling techniques in kung fu. if its wrestling, its called wrestling.

[bawang]

Agree, but not talking about wrestling. Talking about techniques in forms and whether they exist or not.

if a technique in a form is wrestling its called wrestling. the poem will say "this technique is for wrestling"

[bawang]

I don't think you comphrehend the meaning of kata/xing. It means pattern, form, shape, appearance.

the shapes teach very specific concepts. you don't pull techniques out ur ass.

[bawang]

Did you read what I wrote? Or are you just agreeing with me?

I didn't read it. u confuse me when u argue wit laroux man

also u do know laroux doesn't train any actual martial arts right. for 4 years this guy never said what he trained and has never described a single mma technique in detail

[Jimbo]

There are two person kata/taolu in Karate/Gong Fu. Not really any different than Judo as far as usage or practice, just longer and more content.

True...I should have clarified that, although karate and kung fu have 2-person forms, but the judo kata are always 2-person. When I trained judo, kata practice was simply practicing the ideal technique of the throw or other technique on a cooperative partner.

[lkfmdc]

there are no secret wrestling techniques in kung fu. if its wrestling, its called wrestling.


if a technique in a form is wrestling its called wrestling. the poem will say "this technique is for wrestling"


the shapes teach very specific concepts. you don't pull techniques out ur ass.

LO Han Fuk Fu "Arhat Subdues a Tiger" in Lama Pai can be BOTH a strike and a throw

Baahk HOk Tam Soi "white crane splashes water" can be sweep (striking) or set up for throw

LO Han Pak Deih "Arhat Strikes the earth" can be takedown, can also be way to stop a takedown

Pau Wai Sau "destroying hands" can be block or set up for throw

real system is not so black and white

[TenTigers]

It's just a stupid for them as it is for any other system.

And you won't find judo practitioners trying to pull out techniques from their katas. They learn their techniques in practice against partners.

and there you have it.
"Some" Forms can be a textbook. Many systems don't have forms and simply have a long list of techniques, but if that list is lost or forgotten, so is the system. With a form, you can always extract and extrapolate your techniques.
(mind you, not all forms are textbooks (kuen-faht) some are developmental (gung-faht), but in this specific case, we are talking about textbook.

[YouKnowWho]

If you fight all your life, one day you are too old to fight. You don't want to quit training. You collect all your favor fighting combos, link it into a form. Before you die, you teach that sequence to your students. Your students then pass it down to the next generation. That's a form.

I went to a Karate black belt testing one day. The students had to remember the order of 65 different techniques. When the instructor said, "technique 37", his students had to perform it right way. A 65 moves form will be helpful in this case.

SC has about 400 throws. If someone can link all 400 throw into a long form, not only that form will be able to help people to achieve "health", it can also be an excellent "throwing skill text book".

Again, forms are for teaching and learning only. It's not designed for training. After you have learned a form, you record it on DVD, you no longer have to "train" it any more.

[LaRoux]

If you fight all your life, one day you are too old to fight. You don't want to quit training. You collect all your favor fighting combos, link it into a form. Before you die, you teach that sequence to your students. Your students then pass it down to the next generation. That's a form..

And that's exactly why teachers who developed systems that rely on forms being passed down had systems that became mostly useless and obsolete.

The teachers who, instead of categorizing their favorite fighting combos into forms, taught the application of the techniques to their students are the ones who developed the systems that have remained practical and useful.

[LaRoux]

LO Han Fuk Fu "Arhat Subdues a Tiger" in Lama Pai can be BOTH a strike and a throw

Baahk HOk Tam Soi "white crane splashes water" can be sweep (striking) or set up for throw

LO Han Pak Deih "Arhat Strikes the earth" can be takedown, can also be way to stop a takedown

Pau Wai Sau "destroying hands" can be block or set up for throw

real system is not so black and white

The things in those forms are not sweeps, set ups, throws, takedowns, takedown defense, or blocks.

What they are is dancing around and doing movements in the air.

[IronWeasel]

Any fighting applications taken from forms is ridiculous.



A statement like this is why no one takes you seriously.

[lkfmdc]

A statement like this is why no one takes you seriously.

you know, once you identify someone as just a troll, you're just better off putting them on ignore and not responding. You aren't going anywhere and you are wasting not only your time, but forum space

[-N-]

Quicky learning forms for self serving reasons quickly leads to the decay of a system. Over time a past master's wisdom is lost as future generations seek only to collect instead of understand. If it's a form collected from an outside system, and learned in this manner, and is vastly different from the style you study the essence is lost and more than likely can never be regained. More often than not when this happens and individuals try to re-interpret the movements it becomes so perverted that it is no longer what it was originally intended to be used for.

Which is why traditional teachers are so particular about who they teach and get faulted for not sharing their system more widely.

[-N-]

Dead and useless systems rely on forms to categorize and pass on their techniques.

Alive and effective systems rely on usage to categorize and pass on their techniques.

Doesn't have to be an either/or situation.

Effective TCMA combines both.

[IronWeasel]

you know, once you identify someone as just a troll, you're just better off putting them on ignore and not responding. You aren't going anywhere and you are wasting not only your time, but forum space



Roger that.

[Dale Dugas]

yeah all the tools are back in the "ignore" box for me.

[IronWeasel]

Thinking that you can take fighting applications from forms is why kung fu is not taken seriously.



Maybe when I use one of those applications on you, you can begin to take it seriously.