Is Gongfu Dead??? [Archive] - Kung Fu Magazine Forums

Minghequan

11-08-2013, 01:12 AM

TA follow up or new thread to look at the feeling or impression that Gongfu in China proper is dead using the following quote from Faux Newbie in another thread:

Faux Newbie wrote:

Reports of the death of kung fu in the mainland had their grain of truth, but now the mainland is just like kung fu everywhere, including the diaspora.

Your thoughts for and against?

What about Gongfu in the West?

Faux Newbie

11-08-2013, 01:28 AM

TA follow up or new thread to look at the feeling or impression that Gongfu in China proper is dead using the following quote from Faux Newbie in another thread:

Your thoughts for and against?

What about Gongfu in the West?

To be clear, I don't think it's dead. I think that there is the possibility for a tremendous resurgence and revitalization of it, along actual traditional lines, not revisionist ones.

Faux Newbie

11-08-2013, 01:49 AM

They have been. Even using the PRC as an example, all those sanshou-muay thai fights and similar that they've been pushing, regardless of the starts, they've tended to continue them, anyone whose paid any attention to the PRC is aware of how important it is to them and the Chinese people to legitimately be seen as major contenders in business, sports, whatever, and the Taiwanese are no different in this. Some stuff, the two sides are in perfect agreement on.

Outside of China, you have the beginnings of an era where there are more Chinese teachers flexible enough to adapt the culture and teaching of kung fu to be fair to Americans, and American sifus qualified in a way and in greater numbers than previously by contact training unavailable as comprehensively before, at a point where the forms competitions, etc, except at the biggest events, is weakened. It's likely that some will continue the already existent move to inclusion of fights in mma and kickboxing events, as these are the formats where competition and purses at least exist.

Mind you, it might all go south, but I hope not. I think there is more useful stuff spread out all over in all the kung fu styles than any of us could hope to realize, and I think it would be a shame if it was lost.

Minghequan

11-08-2013, 02:26 AM

For me it requires an almost "reverese-engineering" look at the original intention.

Instead of the long, drawn out "performances" in forms and other applications, the flashy designed to attract interest and attention one needs to ask a very simple question:

"What was this arts original intention?"

If then the answer is Personal Life-Protection or protection of other's wiithin a given village etc then the art should be simple in application and form. No long, flashy forms and movements ... just straight to the point applicable and practical Martial Arts.

None of the "Village Performance Arts" which history tells us existed or were added to by martial artists desperate to make a dollar!

But the real, viable and original intention!

Pete

11-08-2013, 02:49 AM

traditional gong fu isn't popular in china because if you choose that path it's going to be tough for you...not only the training but money wise... i'm sure wushu is more popular because you can earn a few quid preforming :o

also the showy stuff was invented by the people scared of the traditional stuff

Iron_Eagle_76

11-08-2013, 06:28 AM

So long as an art is still being studied and trained it will never be completely dead, but the popularity and cult status that Kung Fu had in the 1970's will never return, simply because times change and evolve and Kung Fu is no longer the "trend".

Many argue that Sanda is not true Kung Fu, however, it takes techniques found in TCMA and categorizes them into a full contact sport version that is similar to other arts who have done the same. Muay Boran to Muay Thai, Old Jujitsu to Judo and BJJ, Fisticuffs to Boxing, ect.

The truth is you will never have more people involved in TCMA, or any martial arts, that want to compete more in Sanda than in forms competitions. It's just not a reality because most people don't want to fight full contact.

Kellen Bassette

11-08-2013, 06:52 AM

Many argue that Sanda is not true Kung Fu, however, it takes techniques found in TCMA and categorizes them into a full contact sport version that is similar to other arts who have done the same. Muay Boran to Muay Thai, Old Jujitsu to Judo and BJJ, Fisticuffs to Boxing, ect.

This is exactly right. I think some could argue the only reason Muay Boran isn't completely lost to obscurity and Japanese JiuJitsu isn't totally irrelevant, is because of the sport aspects those arts adopted.

bawang

11-08-2013, 07:41 AM

choose your adventure

A)

- goes to shanghai looking for kung fu
- comes back saying kung fu is dead

LOL

or

B)

-ex karate nutjob, creates own style from books
-visit china, kung fu people avoid you/ milk you for certificate
-says kung fu is dead

LOL

MightyB

11-08-2013, 08:15 AM

There's a lot of real good kung fu out there if you're actually looking for it. Sure it's hard to find if you're stuck in places like nut-sack Iowa, or Mooseknuckle Wisconsin - but it's out there, you may just have to travel a bit to find it.

MightyB

11-08-2013, 08:29 AM

Iron_Eagle_76

11-08-2013, 08:31 AM

funny thing is... I saw less resistance to TCMA techniques and principles in the local MMA Gym where guys are in it and winning it than I see on this supposedly TCMA forum.

For f**k sakes, they even experimented with WC concepts! :eek:

Which begs the question, is it the style that is dead or it's practitioners. I'm saying the latter.

lkfmdc

11-08-2013, 08:36 AM

MightyB

11-08-2013, 08:38 AM

Which begs the question, is it the style that is dead or it's practitioners. I'm saying the latter.

I'm saying kind've sort've and neither at the same time.

People not wanting to fight in MMA doesn't equate the death of the style or practitioners. Depends on where you live. When I lived in the more urban part of my state, MMA was well organized, where I live now - it's a f**k job designed to make some "promoters" some cash at the fighter's expense.

That being said, does that make the kung fu or practitioners less because they don't want to be exploited?

MightyB

11-08-2013, 08:40 AM

the difference between an MMA person and the so called "traditionalist" is that if you show the MMA person that something works, they will use it

the "traditionalist" will argue it isn't part of his style, isn't real kung fu, is external and they do "internal", that they already have that method but it takes 10 years to do correctly, etc

I think the argument has always been about what constitutes a traditionalist. In the old days of the heroes and founders - it was all MMA in their own way using an anything to win attitude.

Nowadays, some Neo Traditionalists are crazy. You have to recognize them as that - take what you can from them, and move on.

Pete

11-08-2013, 09:18 AM

the difference between an MMA person and the so called "traditionalist" is that if you show the MMA person that something works, they will use it

the "traditionalist" will argue it isn't part of his style, isn't real kung fu, is external and they do "internal", that they already have that method but it takes 10 years to do correctly, etc

being a traditionalist is different from learning traditional kung fu right :)

you don't need to be a mma person just have an open mind :p

Golden Arms

11-08-2013, 10:02 AM

My Pak Mei and Hung Gar are both alive and well. I knew martial arts were on a downward slope the first time I won a San Shou championship and received a small medal, then looked over and saw the guys that won in forms packing around 3-5 foot tall trophies.

What most of the world has not figured out is that: The people with the most trophies and who are most vocal about their arts often are the "empty teacups that make the most noise".

bawang

11-08-2013, 10:33 AM

Faux Newbie

11-08-2013, 10:34 AM

funny thing is... I saw less resistance to TCMA techniques and principles in the local MMA Gym where guys are in it and winning it than I see on this supposedly TCMA forum.

For f**k sakes, they even experimented with WC concepts! :eek:

Yes, anyone who doesn't recognize that online martial arts culture is almost entirely different than in the gyms and schools is probably spending too much time online.

The reason there is so much talk online is that people are filling their time. Not me, of course, other people.

Minghequan

11-08-2013, 02:05 PM

Thanks for your replies (Yes even you my little Bawang ... there is always one clown in every group and you do it so well :D)

So do you think that in the future that the "real" Gongfu will be found in the West?

Kellen Bassette

11-08-2013, 02:29 PM

being a traditionalist is different from learning traditional kung fu right :)

Yes........

Kellen Bassette

11-08-2013, 02:31 PM

That being said, does that make the kung fu or practitioners less because they don't want to be exploited?

When's the last time Kung Fu wasn't being exploited?

bawang

11-08-2013, 03:53 PM

So do you think that in the future that the "real" Gongfu will be found in the West?

only black people.

PalmStriker

11-08-2013, 07:50 PM

Only black people what? :confused:

Kellen Bassette

11-08-2013, 08:10 PM

Only black people what? :confused:

White people can't have da realz Kung Fu...except David Ross...

PalmStriker

11-08-2013, 08:21 PM

Maybe this will help: http://www.gamespot.com/forums/offtopic-discussion-314159273/did-black-people-save-the-kungfu-genre-29347623/

bawang

11-08-2013, 08:25 PM

maybe this will help: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JZ0s6LMapnY

Kellen Bassette

11-08-2013, 08:37 PM

It didn't help. Neither of you are helping.

Pete

11-08-2013, 09:56 PM

Yes........

:p sorry if i sounded stupid i don't think i've been unfortunate enough to meet a traditionalist so far

So do you think that in the future that the "real" Gongfu will be found in the West?

hope so, but it doesn't look good at the moment

maybe in about 10 years i can have my own school some place... but perhaps not as i'm white :D guess i'd have to yellow up first!

YouKnowWho

11-08-2013, 10:29 PM

One of my guys went to a MMA gym. After he had shown his MMA friends the "cracking" technique, His MMA friends were all convinced that "stand up joint locking" work (they didn't believe that before). They all wanted to learn that move from him.

There are a lot of treasure in TCMA, the day that MMA guys have found it, the day that TCMA and MMA will be further integrated together. MMA guys are very realistic. You have to use your TCMA techniques to work on them before they can show any respect on you. IMO, the best way to save TCMA is to send students to the MMA gyms.

LaRoux

11-09-2013, 04:56 AM

Kung fu died a long time ago. It was killed by the invention of forms.

ShaolinDan

11-09-2013, 06:25 AM

If kung fu was dead, we wouldn't have a new thread with this title every few months for the last five years. :)
Think kung fu is dead? Check out Hollywood. :D

ShaolinDan

11-09-2013, 06:46 AM

Kellen Bassette

11-09-2013, 08:00 AM

:p sorry if i sounded stupid i don't think i've been unfortunate enough to meet a traditionalist so far

Actually, I quoted it because I thought it was a good post...

Kellen Bassette

11-09-2013, 08:08 AM

IMO, the best way to save TCMA is to send students to the MMA gyms.

I agree and I would take it one step further. I would suggest the best way to teach a new student TCMA is to teach them with MMA or Sanda style training for the first year...so they are strong and capable of fighting. Then start introducing the esoteric exercises...they will understand better and be better able to apply.

I think the reason there is so much resistance to this is only partly tradition. It's partly the sifu's fear of being incompetent in such an environment and partly the fear of losing students who don't have the desire or heart for hard training.

Kellen Bassette

11-09-2013, 08:10 AM

Kung fu died a long time ago. It was killed by the invention of forms.

I refer you to my current signature...

Originally Posted by SoCo KungFu
MMA didn't kill kung fu, just stole its girlfriend. Kung fu committed suicide in a Denny's parking lot

Wuxia007

11-09-2013, 10:57 AM

Is kung fu dead? If your referring to it's popularity then just wait for that one good unique kung fu movie that appeals to the mass and it will resurge again. Like what the Ip Man movies did for Wing Chun. And what Bruce Lee and Jackie Chan did during their times. It's lame, but unfortunately true.

YouKnowWho

11-09-2013, 11:16 AM

What do you think that a 70 years old boxer, MT guy, Judo guy, BJJ guy would "train at home alone when sparring/wrestling is not available"?

A

- boxer may train jab, cross, hook, uppercut combo as shadow boxing.
- MT guy may train roundhouse kick, jab, cross, elbow, clinch, knee strike combo solo drill.
- Judo guy may train hip throw, inner hook, outer hook combo solo drill.
- BJJ guy may ...

Whether you want to call it shadow boxing or form, I don't see much different there. We don't have training partner 24/7. How to train solo at home should have no difference between styles.

wenshu

11-09-2013, 01:23 PM

The main difference is that the Judokas, BJJ'ers, boxers, wrestlers, and MT practitioners are making their "forms" up on the fly based on their past experiences with applying techniques against opponents.

http://i.imgur.com/dHaM6mN.jpg

lkfmdc

11-09-2013, 05:07 PM

Hmmm...Actually this discussion's been going on a lot longer than that. Since MMA...since Bruce Lee's death...since cultural revolution....since boxer rebellion...since.... what can you infer from this? :rolleyes:

the more history you read, the more you should be aware of some reoccurring issues in CMA that have been going on thousands of years...

that being said, I think we are in a new era... in the past there were those raging against the problems and trying to keep CMA pure and combat effective. IN today's age, who really cares about "combat effective"? Certainly we have tournaments, and health, and contemporary wushu and movies, etc

And those seeking combat effectiveness have MMA...

There ARE difference with today's situation

Kellen Bassette

11-09-2013, 06:03 PM

I think we are in a new era... in the past there were those raging against the problems and trying to keep CMA pure and combat effective. IN today's age, who really cares about "combat effective"?

I could probably name a dozen regular posters here who care about that...

mooyingmantis

11-09-2013, 07:03 PM

If you want "combat effectiveness" get a GUN! You don't need bjj, mma or kung fu. Empty hand fighting has ALWAYS been the last resort for self-defense.

Kung fu stands on its own and will survive because it has many things to offer the practitioner from cradle to grave. Combat effectiveness is only one aspect of kung fu's value.

YouKnowWho

11-09-2013, 07:48 PM

Why do we need (combo) form?

Let's look at this from the angle of the throwing art. If all you care about is "single leg" or "double legs", when you fail, you will try it again. If you always stay on the "single move" level, you just keep trying to use the same move over and over, the combo (or form) will have no value to you.

When you use one move to throw your opponent, if he escapes or still remains balance, you will need to use another move to throw him. This is called "combo". Since not all move will have logical connection to another move, there are combo that are worthwhile to be recorded and be passed down from generation to generation.

The following clip shows 2 combos that you can use to attack your opponent "on the same direction". The

- 1st combo is when you apply "hip throw" and your opponent escapes, you can use "leg block" to throw him.
- 2nd combo is when you apply "front cut", your opponent escapes, you can use "sickle hook" to throw him.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ngH80X-3t8g

If a teacher didn't teach his students these combo, will his students be able to figure it out by themselves? May be or may be not. If you record these kind of combo into a "form", it can help the study of the future generation and save them a lot of time trying to figure it out all by themselves.

PalmStriker

11-10-2013, 07:23 PM

:) Public Perception: http://chinesemartialstudies.com/2013/11/08/tung-ying-chieh-and-the-public-perception-of-the-chinese-martial-arts-in-post-war-hong-kong/

David Jamieson

11-11-2013, 07:43 AM

Stupid lies, posturing and putting forth of something as something it is not deserves to die.

But Kung Fu? Kung fu can't die. It just has to be picked up and worked towards by one person, any person.

If it is the whole of your identity, you might have issues... :)

If it is integrated into your lifestyle, you've done well.

LFJ

11-11-2013, 08:27 AM

- goes to shanghai looking for kung fu
- comes back saying kung fu is dead

Just saying, there is some good kung fu to be found easily in Shanghai, as pretty much everywhere else in China if you know where to look.

Scott R. Brown

11-11-2013, 09:09 AM

Hmmmm....I thought it was only The Wicked Witch that was dead????

jimbob

11-11-2013, 11:14 AM

funny thing is... I saw less resistance to TCMA techniques and principles in the local MMA Gym where guys are in it and winning it than I see on this supposedly TCMA forum.

For f**k sakes, they even experimented with WC concepts! :eek:

If I could vote you up, I would.

The MMA guys I've worked out with have all been considerably more open minded than almost any of the TCMA guys I've spent decades with. Yes - they choose CMA as the first styles to rubbish (maybe along with aikido), because they haven't been well represented in their arena, but once they can see the practicality of something, they're more than happy to give it their full attention.

jimbob

11-11-2013, 11:29 AM

IMO, the best way to save TCMA is to send students to the MMA gyms.

And Bingo to this too.

Why are TCMA's in danger of dying (if they are?).

Because they are seen to be ineffective. Wushu players partake in their sport and everyone knows that it's all for show.

If you believe doing slow motion taiji forms or spiralling bagua will make you healthy, and you have no interest in self defence or fighting - have at it.

The rest of it, technically, is supposedly for self defence/fighting. Maybe there are people using their TCMA skills to survive street altercations regularly, but no-one hears about them. Surviving on the street is not going to spread your reputation far and wide.

Competing against another skilled opponent and testing your material to see how well you can make it work - that is what will lift profiles and hopefully address any questions of effectiveness.

When that question gets answered, we'll stop discussing the impending death of kung fu.

YouKnowWho

11-11-2013, 12:03 PM

How can we say that Kung Fu is dead? After I had posted the following clip,

http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMzUwNTQ1OTM2.html

a MMA guy made comment as the following:

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"That's actually a very nice takedown. I think I'll incorporate it into my stand up."

"You think I'm not going to use the "front cut" takedown because it comes from Kung Fu? Nope! It's an awesome takedown, and I'm sharing it with my Bjj brothers and sisters."

YouKnowWho

11-11-2013, 12:13 PM

In the past, I have criticized both my major TCMA styles and my minor TCMA styles such as:

- longfist system form has too much abstraction,
- SC depends too much on sleeve hold,
- WC Bong Shou expose elbow and chest,
- Bagua circle walking cross legs for swept,
- Yang Taiji has hand moves but not enough leg move such as sweep, scoop, hook, lift, spring, ...,
- ...

If we want our style to "evolve", we have to first detect the weakness of our style. No matter what style that we train, we should not be bounded by our styles. We should have "no style boundary" in mind. The moment that we say, "My style doesn't do this." or "This is against my style principle", the moment that we have stopped ourselves the opportunity to grow.

jimbob

11-11-2013, 12:16 PM

If we want our style to "evolve", we have to first detect the weakness of our style.

And the best way to do this?

Test it, under pressure, against as many different people as you can.

YouKnowWho

11-11-2013, 12:28 PM

If you believe doing slow motion taiji forms or spiralling bagua will make you healthy, and you have no interest in self defence or fighting - have at it.
Agree!

We should not use "TCMA is more than combat" as excuse for not "evolving".

David Jamieson

11-11-2013, 01:56 PM

Agree!

We should not use "TCMA is more than combat" as excuse for not "evolving".

Or separate the aspects. Because it's not about "sayings" or "excuses".
the fact of the matter is that exclusive health and spiritual liberation exercises were tightly woven into many kung fu styles over centuries.

That is hard to undo in a day with a few guys eschewing it.

Make it clear. Health and spiritual liberation can be pursued through kung fu. Train it with a particular method towards that end. When you are old, you will not regret it.

Health and arse kicking requires focus on different aspects, if that is what you want do that.

Lucas

11-11-2013, 02:21 PM

Ding Dong *****es.

http://www.lewrockwell.com/assets/2005/01/01shoes.jpg

MightyB

11-11-2013, 03:18 PM

Kung Fu's alive and well... just seen him hanging out on 42nd by the Speedway. Said "Waz up Kung fu?" he said "yo".

YouKnowWho

11-11-2013, 03:22 PM

Health and arse kicking requires focus on different aspects, if that is what you want do that.

For

- "health", we don't need to change our training. We can still train our forms as we did before. If we know 10 forms, we can train form #1, form #2, ..., form #10 one after another.

- "combat", we will need to change our training and develop one skill after another.

1. train a technique (for example a toe push kick to the chest).
2. enhance it (how to make your kick fast and strong).
3. counter it (arm block, leg block, move back, ...).
4. counter the counters (use your kick to set up your punch).
5. ...

If we say that "change" is good, at the same time we also say that "no change" is necessary, we won't be able to have any meaningful discussion here.

lkfmdc

11-11-2013, 03:23 PM

Kung Fu's dead, he's locked in my basement hah hah

MightyB

11-11-2013, 03:25 PM

Kung Fu's dead, he's locked in my basement hah hah

That was Ving Chun - people often get the two confused.

YouKnowWho

11-11-2013, 03:33 PM

We can let Kung Fu die and just assume that Kung Fu is good for "health" only. We can also try to bring it back to alive, prove to others that it's also good for "combat". Which path do we want to take?

Since nobody will disagree that "Kung Fu is good for healthy", there is nothing that we will need to do in that aspect.

lkfmdc

11-11-2013, 03:42 PM

That was Ving Chun - people often get the two confused.

no, no, THIS is where Ving Chun is

http://ericpetersautos.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/gimp-1.jpg

-N-

11-11-2013, 03:55 PM

- "combat", we will need to change our training and develop one skill after another.

1. train a technique (for example a toe push kick to the chest).
2. enhance it (how to make your kick fast and strong).
3. counter it (arm block, leg block, move back, ...).
4. counter the counters (use your kick to set up your punch).
5. ...

If we say that "change" is good, at the same time we also say that "no change" is necessary, we won't be able to have any meaningful discussion here.

That IS the traditional way. Maybe some people need to change back.