Control your opponent's leg/legs

[YouKnowWho]

Can you throw your opponent without controlling his leg/legs? In the following clip, you can see that "leg control" is not involved.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=98yRuBkUBGQ

If you let your opponent to have too much freedom on his legs, it's very easy for him to escape your attack. In the following clips, it's easy to see that since one of his opponent's legs is hooked, it's harder for his opponent to escape. That will increase the successful rate.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iftncTWdQyc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NcrqPsVHkTo

Not trying to compare the style difference here (the word "style" has no meaning to me) but to compare whether one approach is more "combat effective" than the other.

What's your opinion on this?

[-N-]

http://youtu.be/lRKa0myJDas

[pazman]

In Judo's osoto gari, if one's timing and explosiveness were enough, you could put the opponent on the ground with only the unbalancing, without the leg control. This might be considered "kao" in CMA. The technique would also be called "aigamae ate" in Aikido. It is a cool concept but its better to focus on the full technique with leg control because it is much more practical.

Train practical first, train "cool" stuff later.

[-N-]

Throwing is about controlling or moving the opponent around his center. You can do it with help of leg control, but you don't always have to.

[lkfmdc]

People who have done Judo think about blocking the leg with their leg, but the same action can be done with your hand

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tfGrCHBpek0

Sometimes people attack the incorrect leg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YbisUw49E4c

[YouKnowWho]

People who have done Judo think about blocking the leg with their leg, but the same action can be done with your hand

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tfGrCHBpek0

Sometimes people attack the incorrect leg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YbisUw49E4c

In Chinese wrestling, both leg block and hand block are considered as the same "blocking" category. The nice thing about "hand block" is if you can get one of your opponent's legs with your hand, you then block his other standing leg, he will fall very hard onto the ground.

Old Chinese saying said, "Get both of your opponent's legs if you can, otherwise get one first and then get the other afterward."

[YouKnowWho]

Train practical first, train "cool" stuff later.

This move "飘(Piao) - floating hand" is very similar to the Aikido throw that use hands only without using leg to control your opponent's leg. My teacher told me this is only a "demo" move and he had never seen it used on the mat.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VSDoeU81qto&feature=youtu.be

[Yum Cha]

John, I think there are two kinds of attack.

One, where you attack the opponent's centre of gravity and use their momentum against them, like some of the Cung Lee, and some aikido, . I mean the lifts Cung did, just getting under an advancing opponent....
Redirecting force and disrupting.

And there are the precision attacks like yours and David's videos, where you are attacking the supports to the centre of gravity and in essence putting force against force.

Good thread.

[-N-]

This move "飘(Piao) - floating hand" is very similar to the Aikido throw that use hands only without using leg to control your opponent's leg. My teacher told me this is only a "demo" move and he had never seen it used on the mat.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VSDoeU81qto&feature=youtu.be

There is an Aikijitsu version that uses a hip strike on the entry to destabilize the center before the throw. Right hip kao da to right hip.

Is that considered the same as the Aikido and Shuai Chiao ones?

[-N-]

In Judo's osoto gari, if one's timing and explosiveness were enough, you could put the opponent on the ground with only the unbalancing, without the leg control. This might be considered "kao" in CMA. The technique would also be called "aigamae ate" in Aikido. It is a cool concept but its better to focus on the full technique with leg control because it is much more practical.

Train practical first, train "cool" stuff later.

Interesting on the aigamae ate.

Found this on youtube just now.

http://youtu.be/YEbhd4y5txI

A couple weeks ago we were having the students use arm drag hook punch. The footwork was upper leg/hip tip-kao to get the takedown in combination with the strike.

Essentially the same as in this clip, but a closer light entry that explodes, impacts, and sinks as soon as the leg brushes in.

We consider this one a practical move. We use a variation of this as an easy follow-up to the classic au lau choi Praying Mantis attack.

[YouKnowWho]

There is an Aikijitsu version that uses a hip strike on the entry to destabilize the center before the throw. Right hip kao da to right hip.

Is that considered the same as the Aikido and Shuai Chiao ones?

As long as you can force your opponent's arm to be "straight", you can use your hip, or side kick. The one used in SC use the side kick most of the time. When your opponent's arm is straight, if you twist his arm you will get the result for this throw.


John, I think there are two kinds of attack.

One, where you attack the opponent's centre of gravity and use their momentum against them, like some of the Cung Lee, and some aikido, . I mean the lifts Cung did, just getting under an advancing opponent....
Redirecting force and disrupting.

And there are the precision attacks like yours and David's videos, where you are attacking the supports to the centre of gravity and in essence putting force against force.

Good thread.

If you life your opponent up, you don't need to control his leg, since his legs are off the ground any way.


Found this on youtube just now.

http://youtu.be/YEbhd4y5txI

This kind of throw that you don't control your opponent's leg may work on beginners. If you want your throw to work on someone on your level, the leg control is a must,

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1-5ZhLX7hhM&feature=youtu.be

[-N-]

This kind of throw that you don't control your opponent's leg may work on beginners. If you want your throw to work on someone on your level, the leg control is a must,

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1-5ZhLX7hhM&feature=youtu.be

The aikido clip is like front cut, but more gap. He shows right hand push instead of right hand strike.

If my left hand controls his right elbow, and I use right hook punch forearm, and right front cut with the leg very deep, he will still try to block my front cut?

Then my forearm will hit him, no?

[YouKnowWho]

The aikido clip is like front cut, but more gap. He shows right hand push instead of right hand strike.

If my left hand controls his right elbow, and I use right hook punch forearm, and right front cut with the leg very deep, he will still try to block my front cut?

Then my forearm will hit him, no?

The "gap" is the problem. When you apply front cut and you use your left hand to control his wrist, the "gap' is too big. Your left hand should control his left elbow instead. IMO, all the Aikido throw, the "gap" is too big.

Your opponent's head can still dodge under your hook punch. When that happen, he can apply front cut on you since you have just put your leg behind his leading leg. It's called front cut against front cut in SC.

[-N-]

The "gap" is the problem. When you apply front cut and you use your left hand to control his wrist, the "gap' is too big. Your left hand should control his left elbow instead. IMO, all the Aikido throw, the "gap" is too big.

Your opponent's head can still dodge under your hook punch. When that happen, he can apply front cut on you since you have just put your leg behind his leading leg. It's called front cut against front cut in SC.

Ok, agreed.

I just look at his gappy version as the beginner way for people learning.

To really use it, you cannot have gap.

Big part of training is to close instantly.

Praying Mantis hook punch is really forearm.

[pazman]

The "gap" is the problem. When you apply front cut and you use your left hand to control his wrist, the "gap' is too big. Your left hand should control his left elbow instead. IMO, all the Aikido throw, the "gap" is too big.

This is a great observation. Many Aikido players think their techniques work in the same context as Judo or wrestling. Of course this isn't true. My teacher once said "Aikido is Judo at a distance". There are contexts in which being able to execute technique with a big gap might be better.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7PIzc6qDnh8

This is also considered aigamae ate. For police and security, there might be contexts where keeping a gap could be useful.

But for general combat, I would not focus on these techniques.

[-N-]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7PIzc6qDnh8

This is also considered aigamae ate. For police and security, there might be contexts where keeping a gap could be useful.

This is same as Praying Mantis 14 Roads Tan Tui #11, the throat lock takedown.

Control the right arm, throat grab, but we have more emphasis on the right leg to take out the other guy's leg.

[YouKnowWho]

This is same as Praying Mantis 14 Roads Tan Tui #11, the throat lock takedown.

Control the right arm, throat grab, but we have more emphasis on the right leg to take out the other guy's leg.

The principle "封(Feng)" - throat blocking" is one of the SC principles. I haven't seen this been used in Judo yet.

You can push on the shoulder. But if your opponent spins his body, it will lead your shoulder pushing to be in emptiness. A throat push will make your opponent's body spinning to be useless.

One of my favor throat pushing set up is to punch at my opponent's face, the moment that my opponent tries to block it, I'll pull my punch back half way and move my hand on his throat from "the other side of his blocking arm".

[-N-]

The principle "封(Feng)" - throat blocking" is one of the SC principles. I haven't seen this been used in Judo yet.

[...]

One of my favor throat pushing set up is to punch at my opponent's face, the moment that my opponent tries to block it, I'll pull my punch back half way and move my hand on his throat from "the other side of his blocking arm".

Praying Mantis will like to control.

One way with your setup is right punch. When he reacts, you leak to the other side instead of pull back. Left hand controls his arm, and you grab his throat.

With your left hand control, it doesn't matter if his reaction is block, or if he tries to beat you to the punch. Leak instead of pull back will be faster because you just continue the forward attack.

Because the hands are faster, the footwork can be faster, and your front cut can be very deep.

Brendan Lai used this as back palm and front palm. But you can do this as punch and throat lock instead.

If you mess up on the throat lock, you can just switch to forearm smash instead. He will still go down.

[-N-]

This TCMA technical discussion is dead and needs revival.

[YouKnowWho]

Let include "control the elbow" discussion in this thread as well.

This clip controls the wrist and forearm;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4LPXiroJPCA&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3D4LPXiroJPCA&app=desktop

This clip controls the wrist and elbow:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WLxlpxQZ9jM&feature=youtu.be

Which approach do you prefer?

[YouKnowWho]

I'm assuming your talking about the first technique. From a wrist grab Carp Spouting Water is done quickly using your elbow to drop heavily onto your opponents forearm as you twist your wrist in the direction of his thumb to help break the grip. Your other hand pulls down simultaneously on the same forearm. Works best on opposite arm from the grab as this allows you to be at an angle out of range of his free hand. Once the grip is broken you are essentially in postion to strike or apply the technique in second video or both. But as with any technique there are counters. I'm just not a fan of qinna applied from strikes, would rather apply from clinch or grip, just my personal preference. Nothing wrong with the techniques presented just not my approach or flavor.

YKW where'd your post go that I just responded to?

I asked my wife to use the 1st lock on me.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4LPXiroJPCA&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3D4LPXiroJPCA&app=desktop

The moment that she moved her left hand from my elbow to my forearm, the moment I could bend my elbow and she could not make my arm straight again.

I have always believed that if I don't control my opponent's elbow, I'm not really control his arm because his elbow is free.

[-N-]

I asked my wife to use the 1st lock on me.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4LPXiroJPCA&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3D4LPXiroJPCA&app=desktop

The moment that she moved her left hand from my elbow to my forearm, the moment I could bend my elbow and she could not make my arm straight again.

I have always believed that if I don't control my opponent's elbow, I'm not really control his arm because his elbow is free.

The methods in both clips lock the arm to control the body.

The first one twists the bent arm to lock up elbow and shoulder joints. It uses two arms against one to get enough twisting force. Advancing into the person's centerline forces him down.

Did your wife raise and twist your bent arm to lock up the joints? She should have you up on your toes so you can't release the pressure. Then she can jam forward and take out your base. If she is gappy like the Aikido guy, she can use a leg sweep.

The initial arm straightening is only to make the guy react and bend his arm. Then you can twist to lock. She should not be using force against force to make you straighten your arm again after you bend.

I didn't like the Aikido guy's method. Too much gap and using arm without body connection.

A nicer way would be to bring the bent arm close to your own body with his forearm vertical. You turn your body to twist and lock his joints while you advance into him. Your right elbow is level and you hit across his body while you step in to kao like front cut and take out his base.

The method in the second clip straightens the arm to lock the elbow directly and control the body.

Fine for showing that detail, and simple force against force for the takedown.

He didn't show twisting the straight arm to lock and expose the elbow. And he didn't show kicking out the guy's base with his right leg. Also forearm or body against elbow is stronger than hand on elbow. Also is less gappy and gives better control for faster takedown.

[-N-]

Chin Na basic is to twist to lock up while applying bending force.

Just twisting or bending alone is not as effective.

Twist, bend and pivot. Or twist, bend and advance into his center.

Advance sharply with short force to get the break or takedown.

[-N-]

http://youtu.be/_VJe9D0nZkg

6 seconds into the clip - wrist and elbow control and leg control for the takedown.

Pok Tui or Pu Bo.

[YouKnowWho]

you can twist to lock.
I agree that when you apply "twisting" and use your palm edge to horizontally cut into the wrist, the raising elbow won't be able to solve the problem. You may have to turn to your left, face your opponent, and put your arm behind your back.

This Aikido clip uses the "twisting' force.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ksGerDJYcc8&app=desktop

In this clip, from 0.15 to 0.40, before your left hand gets control on his right arm, he could release his right grip on your right wrist anytime he wants to. I had learned a similar lock like this when I was 8 years old (the 1st joint locking skill that I had learned). In TCMA, it's called "大缠丝(Da Chan Si) - big wrist lock" (don't have clip for that).

When your opponent's right hand hold on your right wrist, you turn your right palm up, move your left arm under his right arm and grab on his right hand (assume he is still stupid enough to hold on your right wrist), you then use your right palm edge to straight down cut into his right wrist.

Even today, I still don't believe my opponent will be stupid enough to hold on my wrist while I try to surround his right arm with my left arm.

[YouKnowWho]

http://youtu.be/_VJe9D0nZkg

6 seconds into the clip - wrist and elbow control and leg control for the takedown.

Pok Tui or Pu Bo.

Leg control is always better.

[-N-]

Even today, I still don't believe my opponent will be stupid enough to hold on my wrist while I try to surround his right arm with my left arm.

How about if you have a knife and he grabbed your wrist and is trying to keep you from stabbing him? :)

Big Silk Wrap is big and slow. Better will be to turn the circle to a tight spiral and move in with the entire body tangent to his center of mass.

[-N-]

KF always talk about grab and punch. Mantis has fung or tiou with punch.

We use tiou for the intercept and momentary control. A lot of times people struggle and chase after the grab and hold too long when they already should be throwing combos.

Then people say you can't grab with gloves on.

If you have gloves on, you can use the glove and wrist to give you the momentary control. You don't need the fingers. It is the same like when double stick fighters use the butt of the stick to hook you.

Mantis Catching Cicada is both hands tiou for wrist and elbow control.

If you train your aggressive intent, you can close in enough to use hand and body to control wrist and elbow.

If you are wearing gloves and have left lead, you can jab cross.

When his left hand comes up, you stay in line just barely to the outside.

Use the glove and wrist for the tiou.

Convert to overhook/wrap as you keep going in with the right cross/straight and right foot.

Your torso applies elbow control and your footwork gives you leg control.

Take him down toward toward your right back direction.

[TaichiMantis]

Thank you for that. You write the things I'm thinking much better than I could. Even when I was doing crappy point sparring in open karate tournaments I could use many mantis moves to set up and control my attack. Even with those hand pads that curl over the back of your hand but leave your palm and thumb open...;)

[-N-]

You may have to turn to your left, face your opponent, and put your arm behind your back.

Go for left side throat lock takedown.

He can try to switch to RNC with leg control while you turn.

[YouKnowWho]

Go for left side throat lock takedown.

He can try to switch to RNC with leg control while you turn.

When you turn, you have to

- move your left leg behind your opponent's right leg,
- lean forward so he can't reach to your head.
- let his right leg to sit on your left upper leg as a bench,
- use your left shoulder strike on his chest,
- use your free left hand to push on his throat,
- free your right hand,
- use right hand to pick up his right leading leg,
- use left arm to push on his upper body, and
- throw him backward.

Many interest thing can happen when you turn to your left and face to your opponent. Since your opponent hasn't controlled your elbow, legs, your body will have freedom to do all of these. That's my whole point for this thread discussion.

[-N-]

Even when I was doing crappy point sparring in open karate tournaments I could use many mantis moves to set up and control my attack.


Many interest thing can happen when you turn to your left and face to your opponent. Since your opponent hasn't controlled your elbow, legs, your body will have freedom to do all of these. That's my whole point for this thread discussion.

It's all about having fun, lol :)