Gongfu Revival

[Minghequan]

This arises from another thread.

What do we need to do to revive Gongfu and will this revival start in China proper of arise from the West.

[RenDaHai]

A fighting method revolves around its footwork.

Often people describe a Kung Fu technique as being useless without any understanding of its footwork. If you try to use a Kung Fu technique with boxing footwork then that will not be harmonious.

Many techniques are specific to their footwork and sometimes specific to destroy other types of footwork. Traditional techniques and footwork work on the interplay of advance and retreat, an aspect that is missing from the way many people spar.

If you want to revive old Kung fu rather than hybrid it with western MA, you must first revive its footwork. This is difficult to understand unless you spar weapons. On sparring sabre vs. spear for example the traditional footwork becomes essential.

So if you could revive traditional weapons sparring as a sport, then traditional kung fu hand to hand sparring could follow because people would have a good enough grasp and practice of the footwork.

If you like to use western boxing footwork, then it is more effective to use western boxing techniques.

[-N-]

On sparring sabre vs. spear for example the traditional footwork becomes essential.

Daggers against spear :)

[YouKnowWho]

A fighting method revolves around its footwork.

Is footwork truly that important in striking art? I don't think so. When your fist meets your opponent's face and knock him down, whether your leading foot is in his front door, or in his side door, it won't make much difference.

If you want to sweep your opponent's leg, where you will land your rooting foot will decide whether your sweep leg can reach to your opponent's leg or not.

[Vicius]

Why everybody wants to revive something? If something is dead anything you do to bring it back will result in a new thing, diferent from the original, and it purpose, thus revival can never be achieved.

What I'm going to say are just my thoughts, traditional chinese fighting styles are not sport, not for competition, as I see it they are streetfighting styles, forms are just a good looking way to study the style, the techiques and to pass the knowledge, but ass you learn techniques as the puristic movements they are in the forms, they are presented to you as theory, and for aplying them you must adecuate to the moment, so mutate the form to fit the circumstances. in other words deform the form.

The proper way to use them is without rules, when fighting for your live, in the ring you can only prove limited movements and techniques, and if you use them for lets say MMA, you will select the proper techniques and application according to the rules, so I think you will probably will end up fighting like a MMA striker, not exactly but close. That´s what I think.

[YouKnowWho]

We will need to find the treasure in the TCMA instead. The following groin kick, face punch combo is very combat effective. If we use it as the building block and extend it into more depth (such as what if your opponent blocks your punch), we can come up some excellent combo sequences.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xNlPktNreXM

[-N-]

Is footwork truly that important in striking art? I don't think so. When your fist meets your opponent's face and knock him down, whether your leading foot is in his front door, or in his side door, it won't make much difference.

If you want to sweep your opponent's leg, where you will land your rooting foot will decide whether your sweep leg can reach to your opponent's leg or not.

In striking art, you still need footwork to close in, to get out, and to position.

Foot position is important for kicking, not just for sweeps.

If your striking art uses leg control, then footwork and foot position is important for that too.

[RenDaHai]

Is footwork truly that important in striking art? I don't think so. When your fist meets your opponent's face and knock him down, whether your leading foot is in his front door, or in his side door, it won't make much difference.
.

Yes. It doesn't matter once you get the hit but how do you get there? Often in Sanda say, people make small movements. They dodge the opponents attack by the smallest possible margin. This helps them counter. But in my experience in reality people make MUCH larger movements. The stakes are higher than a match, when they dodge a punch they don't do it by an inch, they do it by a mile. People don't stand up to a punch like boxers, they go with it and their head moves far.

Longfist for example often uses a full retreating stance, this is a very large movement. When people make large evasions it becomes necessary to do things like step through with a strike sometimes. Changing the base footwork, many other techniques need to change with it, and many things become important which previously were not.

[MightyB]

What do we need to do to revive Gongfu?

practice kung fu

[MightyB]

Use a List (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?p=1256824#post1256824)

Spirit first, technique second.

Do not think that kung fu training is only in the kwoon.

It will take your entire life to learn kung fu; there is no limit.

Put your everyday living into kung fu and you will find subtle secrets.

Kung fu is like boiling water. If you do not heat it constantly, it will cool.

Do not think that you have to win, think rather that you do not have to lose.

Beginners must master low stance and posture, natural body positions are for the advanced.

Practicing a form is one thing, engaging in a real fight is another.

[lkfmdc]

CMA functions fine as health, meditation, culture and even physical education

Currently it does not function well as "fighting"

Maybe it is a bias of some of us, to want it to be about "fighting" again....

But clearly there have been significant changes in the community and the way the arts are addressed, conceptualized and trained

[bawang]

CMA functions fine as health, meditation, culture and even physical education

Currently it does not function well as "fighting"

Maybe it is a bias of some of us, to want it to be about "fighting" again....

But clearly there have been significant changes in the community and the way the arts are addressed, conceptualized and trained

CMA currently functions as a fantasy to control and dominate another person

CMA advertises itself as "one weird trick to defeat big strong scary man". you don't have to train hard become warrior and transcend yourself. just do this one weird trick and defeat the big bully.

[lkfmdc]

CMA currently functions as a fantasy to control and dominate another person

CMA advertises itself as "one weird trick to defeat big strong scary man". you don't have to train hard become warrior and transcend yourself. just do this one weird trick and defeat the big bully.

Most TMA are built on this myth, but CMA is much worse, and produces less skilled people, the question is WHY?

[Jimbo]

CMA currently functions as a fantasy to control and dominate another person

CMA advertises itself as "one weird trick to defeat big strong scary man". you don't have to train hard become warrior and transcend yourself. just do this one weird trick and defeat the big bully.

When Asian MA, such as Jujitsu/Judo were first brought to the West (openly), that was the gimmick, most likely thought up by the Westerners themselves who started teaching. They were "self-defense tricks with which a small, weak man or woman could easily subdue a violent brute with little effort". That was part of an upper-class Victorian-era mindset which sought the novelty in various 'new' things, such as occultism/seances; Eastern philosophies/religions; various 'health tonics', etc.

[Golden Arms]

This arises from another thread.

What do we need to do to revive Gongfu and will this revival start in China proper of arise from the West.

:rolleyes: A good first step would be to stop practicing and teaching fake or made up chop suey kung fu. Those of us that have spent real time with actual teachers from legitimate lineages can spot the made up and ineffectual stuff right away.

Personally I am so tired of all the fakes and dishonesty that I don't tend to describe what I practice as kung fu, but instead as Chinese Boxing to distance myself from the rest.

[bawang]

When Asian MA, such as Jujitsu/Judo were first brought to the West (openly), that was the gimmick, most likely thought up by the Westerners themselves who started teaching. They were "self-defense tricks with which a small, weak man or woman could easily subdue a violent brute with little effort". That was part of an upper-class Victorian-era mindset which sought the novelty in various 'new' things, such as occultism/seances; Eastern philosophies/religions; various 'health tonics', etc.

its combination of taboo of physical labor and fear of muscle in the upperclass.


Most TMA are built on this myth, but CMA is much worse, and produces less skilled people, the question is WHY?

money. good fighters come from poor people.

[Miqi]

This arises from another thread.

What do we need to do to revive Gongfu and will this revival start in China proper of arise from the West.

You stop teaching.

[bawang]

You stop teaching.

he is your reflection

[lkfmdc]

You stop teaching.


:rolleyes: A good first step would be to stop practicing and teaching fake or made up chop suey kung fu. Those of us that have spent real time with actual teachers from legitimate lineages can spot the made up and ineffectual stuff right away.

Personally I am so tired of all the fakes and dishonesty that I don't tend to describe what I practice as kung fu, but instead as Chinese Boxing to distance myself from the rest.

can't you just feel the love :D

[bawang]

I train shaolin muay thai and wudang catch wrestling

[David Jamieson]

You should never have abandoned the wombat combat.

[pazman]

I train shaolin muay thai and wudang catch wrestling

Problem solved.:)

[lkfmdc]

You should never have abandoned the wombat combat.

wombat combat 4 life!

[bawang]

You should never have abandoned the wombat combat.

I have to change with the times. my school is now called wombat kickboxing.

[Kellen Bassette]

I have to change with the times. my school is now called wombat kickboxing.

Sell out!!! :mad: You've abandoned your training and all the wombats that came before you!

[Miqi]

he is your reflection

I know. I don't teach.

[Miqi]

can't you just feel the love :D

I don't think that you should stop teaching, as, as I understand it, you have some successful students. But I think you should stop saying that it's 'san da'. That's no fair on people from Mainland China who've actually trained properly in san da, been qualified, proved themselves in matches etc. Why should you take their business, or damage their reputation?

[David Jamieson]

I don't think that you should stop teaching, as, as I understand it, you have some successful students. But I think you should stop saying that it's 'san da'. That's no fair on people from Mainland China who've actually trained properly in san da, been qualified, proved themselves in matches etc. Why should you take their business, or damage their reputation?

He's not in China?
What makes his not San Da and theirs San Da?

It's same rules, same methods pretty much.

No business lost and certainly no reputations damaged. lol

[lkfmdc]

I don't think that you should stop teaching, as, as I understand it, you have some successful students. But I think you should stop saying that it's 'san da'. That's no fair on people from Mainland China who've actually trained properly in san da, been qualified, proved themselves in matches etc. Why should you take their business, or damage their reputation?

I have come to the conclusion either you are on drugs or you are a lunatic...

YOu realize that NONE of the coaches who produced all the champions from the US either were trained in China nor are certifed by China...

Jason Yee, first American to medal in international competition and trained FIVE Americans who have medaled in international competition, incuding the first American to take a silver medal, trained in BOSTON USA

I"ve trained 18 national champions and three world champions. One of my world champions beat CHINA for his title, the other beat the Mongolian trained by China

Dude, stop sucking Chinese balls

[lkfmdc]

no reputations damaged. lol

oh, not true at all, when Americans trained by Americans beat Chinese and their pet students, losts of face and reputation lost :D

[Kellen Bassette]

I have come to the conclusion either you are on drugs or you are a lunatic...


He thinks there is ancient sanda lineage...apparently anyone who trains western boxing in China is also a fraud...:rolleyes:

[David Jamieson]

oh, not true at all, when Americans trained by Americans beat Chinese and their pet students, losts of face and reputation lost :D

face game needs to be beaten to death anyway.

It is the worst aspect of the traditions around Kung Fu practice. imo.

[lkfmdc]

He thinks there is ancient sanda lineage...apparently anyone who trains western boxing in China is also a fraud...:rolleyes:

he is one of those idiots who thinks only Chinese can have the real stuff, he will eat **** if they put it on a plate and hand it to him... have you seen his videos? :eek: That crap is the "real stuff" he got from his "Chinese master" :cool:


face game needs to be beaten to death anyway.

It is the worst aspect of the traditions around Kung Fu practice. imo.

FAce is all China is ever about. When we did our own world championships and got Russia, Egypt, Mongolia, Brazil, etc to come the IWUF put out press release that literally said "this is not real championship because head of organization is not Chinese"

[David Jamieson]

That reads more like racism than anything else. lol

And that weird kind of racism. The kind that is inexplicable and more along the lines of just outright xenophobia.

[lkfmdc]

That reads more like racism than anything else. lol

And that weird kind of racism. The kind that is inexplicable and more along the lines of just outright xenophobia.

wait? I thought you had already dealt with Chinese before this? This is pretty standard practice.....

[David Jamieson]

wait? I thought you had already dealt with Chinese before this? This is pretty standard practice.....

I have. And yes,I've experienced the racism. But granted, I'm a white dude and have not dealt with anything really when thinking in context of others.

[lkfmdc]

I have been on both the receiving end of racism and also a bystander, since I was the adopted disciple of a Chinese sifu and can speak... the bystander stuff was even stranger... hello! I am white also! "no you aren't you are one of us since you speak" :eek:

[pazman]

I don't think that you should stop teaching, as, as I understand it, you have some successful students. But I think you should stop saying that it's 'san da'. That's no fair on people from Mainland China who've actually trained properly in san da, been qualified, proved themselves in matches etc. Why should you take their business, or damage their reputation?

As a guy who trained Sanda in China for several years, I think I'm qualified in saying being qualified on the Mainland doesn't mean a whole lot. The standards are very low and the examination fees are high. I don't know if they still do this, but for a time, performance of a "sanda taolu" was required. In fact, I'd say most good coaches in China today have similar backgrounds to both myself and Mr. Ross: loved TCMA when they were younger, then moved on to more modern methods. Some are duan ranked, some aren't.

Furthermore, there are a significant number of Mainland wushu/sanda coaches here in the USA that simply don't have the skills, work here illegally, and then still get butthurt when they see non-Chinese coaching and "stealing" their business. I think that's disgraceful.

[lkfmdc]

Here is the story, in the short version

guy trained by Chinese "master" in China
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0_AWa__g8JA&feature=c4-overview-vl&list=PL8194B8EE772B01DC

People trained by white guy who has no official certification from china
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sU_PEJA01ps

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CoGcU9rQcDU

[Golden Arms]

FAce is all China is ever about. When we did our own world championships and got Russia, Egypt, Mongolia, Brazil, etc to come the IWUF put out press release that literally said "this is not real championship because head of organization is not Chinese"

When I went to compete in China, they didn't want to let foreigners and Chinese fight once we got there. That way both foreigners and Chinese could get a gold medal. I agree that once you know how face works you begin to realize how rare it would be for a MA to come out of modern day China that is pressure tested. The preference is to have been undefeated (even if you never fought) over having fought a lot but lost some.

[David Jamieson]

When I went to compete in China, they didn't want to let foreigners and Chinese fight once we got there. That way both foreigners and Chinese could get a gold medal. I agree that once you know how face works you begin to realize how rare it would be for a MA to come out of modern day China that is pressure tested. The preference is to have been undefeated (even if you never fought) over having fought a lot but lost some.

Well...that is beyond ridiculous...

lol. really?

[lkfmdc]

When I went to compete in China, they didn't want to let foreigners and Chinese fight once we got there. That way both foreigners and Chinese could get a gold medal. I agree that once you know how face works you begin to realize how rare it would be for a MA to come out of modern day China that is pressure tested. The preference is to have been undefeated (even if you never fought) over having fought a lot but lost some.


Well...that is beyond ridiculous...

lol. really?

if you have at all dealt with teh Chinese and their so called "fighting events" you would not at all be surprised....

[David Jamieson]

if you have at all dealt with teh Chinese and their so called "fighting events" you would not at all be surprised....

Never participated in a fighting event outside of Canada. Except for boxing, but I was only like 15 and 16 years old at the time and that ain't CMA.

As Chinese are not the dominant people at virtually any and all martial arts events in Canada, I have not had to deal with such things. Nor have any of the other people I know who go to these things here.

the worst thing we get is elitist Shotokan dudes.

Which is hilarious.

the san da events are usually dominated by kickboxer types, but I remember on Dragons Cup in Winnipeg where it was Buk Sing guys who walked away with all the potatoes.

anyway. as a near 50 year old dude, I don't see myself having to worry too much about the san da scene in China.

[jimbob]

Well...that is beyond ridiculous...

lol. really?

When i fought in south east asia against other CMA people and won, it was only because I was half Chinese and physically bigger and stronger, not more skilled.

When I beat the Japanese or Thai fighters I was suddenly Chinese again.

I lost badly to a Thai kickboxer once - knee to the head knockout. If I'd been 100% Chinese I would have been able to fight on! true story. My goddam Irish blood got me knocked out.

Would love to hear about the Shotokan experts David, if you have the time.

[David Jamieson]

Back in my home town, Shotokan is probably or was at the time, the largest martial arts entity around.

It was usually them who put on opens quite often.
Or at the very least get he ball rolling and get other clubs etc to pay their part upfront, secure the venue, charge by the head to come in and according to what you wanted to enter.

they would then make the program so fragmented as to garner the most amount of 5 dollar bills at the sign up as they could.

Anyway, when it came to the shotokan kata, they would not compete openly against other clubs in open format competition. Always closed and only available to shotokan registered members.

Which was really weird when you consider it's an "open" tournament!

Don't get me wrong, I think Shotokan is as normal as any other martial art someone wants to practice and I also think they have some kata that could win in competition with the right player. I also know that fighting, being a thing inside an individual as opposed to a thing to gain by putting on a style, could be don well by some of their guys too. But they stayed away for the most part from free sparring, point sparring even except if it was with other shotokan people.

that's just how the organization was then. I don't know how they are now, but back then it was weird.

[jimbob]

I remember entering an open karate tournament way back in the 80s, organised by the local SKI (Kanazawa's Shotokan group) people. Myself and a few other CLF guys decided on a lark to have a go.

We did really well but were constantly penalised for not kiai-ing (yes, really) or excessive contact. It's a strange feeling seeing the local Shotokan teacher lying on the floor but hearing you didn't score because you didn't yell loudly enough.

2 of us got disqualified for spinning backfists that knocked our opponents down, one of our guys got kicked in the floating ribs by an SKI teacher and knocked down (and subsequently out because he took too long to recover).

We couldn't work out why the contact to the ribs causing a knock out was less excessive than the contact to the heads that got us chucked out of the tournament. Nothing was said beforehand.

I can't remember if the Shotokan guys did their own kata tournament or not. We had to. None of the judges was willing to adjudicate our forms - they told us we could do a demonstration if we wanted.

[David Jamieson]

Well.

It was a different time.

Even now, the rivalries are all seemingly gone between schools.
there is a lot more san da and it's only a matter of time before they throw an octagon into the mix if it isn't being done already.

My personal view is that there will be a great divergence and the synthesis of health and spiritual liberation will be broken away from the Martial arts entirely.

It will still be there, but it will no longer fall under the term "martial arts".

this is thanks to MMA and a huge gap in understanding on both sides in regards to where and how qigong, breathing exercises and meditations integrates with martial practice.

I could be wrong. I'm guessing I'm not. It will become even more esoteric in the near future to find a kung fu school that hasn't become a mma gym that offers the other stuff on the side.

[jimbob]

Well.


My personal view is that there will be a great divergence and the synthesis of health and spiritual liberation will be broken away from the Martial arts entirely.

It will still be there, but it will no longer fall under the term "martial arts".



Yes, I can see this happening.

[Pete]

Here is the story, in the short version

guy trained by Chinese "master" in China
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0_AWa__g8JA&feature=c4-overview-vl&list=PL8194B8EE772B01DC

People trained by white guy who has no official certification from china
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sU_PEJA01ps

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CoGcU9rQcDU

who are you saying is better :confused: the chinese master one looked better to me to be honest :p

[lkfmdc]

who are you saying is better :confused: the chinese master one looked better to me to be honest :p

you think the white guy hopping around pawing the air is better? :rolleyes:

[David Jamieson]

who are you saying is better :confused: the chinese master one looked better to me to be honest :p

Well to be far, they are doing different things.
I will say this though about the guy hitting the orange heavy bag.
He is robbing himself of power because he breaks his plant/root/connection to the ground when he hits. His heals and arches pop up.

This dulls the energy flow.

Looking at the drills in the other ones, the guys are connected to the ground when they strike. but bouncing your feet out of a connection to the ground kills power.

even when you do a heel lift on a dropping cross or something, you are still planted deep on the ball of your feet.

anyway, look again at the bag work and you'll see what I mean about his feet not being connected when he punches. You can pretty much guarantee that he will get even more power out if he stayed connected.

/0.02

[lkfmdc]

I'll make it easier for you guys

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YGQj-yyC_40&feature=youtu.be

mr kung fu master trained in China and certified in china hitting a bag that looks like it is all of 40 lbs

vs

a woman in my beginner classes, who is actually hitting a 150 lb fairtex muay thai bag

and compared to one of my fighters (only 2 fights) not even close
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yGNWs7GoQBQ

[bawang]

yiquan is a totally garbage system. they have no forms but keep stupid ridiculous aspects. yiquan guard is the most ridiculous stance ever.

[Pete]

you think the white guy hopping around pawing the air is better? :rolleyes:

yeah, some of the kicks looked ok in that kickboxing vid but the punches about the same :p

i realise i may sound like a "troll" but it's just what i see...and i'm a complete beginner so it doesn't mean **** :)



Well to be far, they are doing different things.
I will say this though about the guy hitting the orange heavy bag.
He is robbing himself of power because he breaks his plant/root/connection to the ground when he hits. His heals and arches pop up.

This dulls the energy flow.



yeah i noticed that, but thought it might be something to do with the style...never heard of yiquan before!

also noticed the slightly bigger guy in the kickboxing vid goes up on the ball of his foot for the heel kick ...didn't seem right but i dunno :o

[lkfmdc]

i realise i may sound like a "troll" but it's just what i see...



Well some people like German scat porn.....






didn't seem right but i dunno

you're right, you're right that you "dunno"

[Pete]

genki genki for me... you have a nice gym :)

and your fighter looks not bad...but i feel you have a grudge against yiquan or that guy :D

[lkfmdc]

but i feel you have a grudge against yiquan or that guy

I don't have a grudge, I just call them as they are. In this case the guy is a delusional wind bag with no skill who has his mouth super glued to a Chinese rear end.....

[Pete]

fair enough lol

[-N-]

anyway, look again at the bag work and you'll see what I mean about his feet not being connected when he punches.

Too floaty.

TCMA uses sinking force. Boxers say to sit on their punches.

Don't know what's going on with the guy in that video.

[bawang]

Too floaty.

TCMA uses sinking force. Boxers say to sit on their punches.

Don't know what's going on with the guy in that video.
the bag actually pushes him back

[lkfmdc]

Don't know what's going on with the guy in that video.

wha't going on? something FRIGHTENINGLY BAD :D

[Brule]

What's going on is that the first vid is a clear demonstration of rising or wave power. This type of power training only comes after years of ma bu solid stance training to develop chi.

[lkfmdc]

What's going on is that the first vid is a clear demonstration of rising or wave power. This type of power training only comes after years of ma bu solid stance training to develop chi.

The rule is, if you smoke drugs, you have to bring enough for the whole forum

[Brule]

Let me ask the mayor if he has extra.

Just because you may not be familiar with it doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Maybe your training didn't include this type of power development?

[lkfmdc]

Just because you may not be familiar with it doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Maybe your training didn't include this type of power development?

if you think there is any power in a guy who bounces off a bag that looks like it weighs about 30 lbs then indeed you are on drugs

[Brule]

But what you're not seeing is the internal strike he's delivering to the core of the bag.

:p

[lkfmdc]

:p

I really do hope you are joking, but I have seen far too many koolaid drinkers who buy exactly stuff like that

[Brule]

had a bunch of time left on my lunch so I thought i'd look in here see what's happening and thought i'd see if I could stir the pot. didn't have it in me to keep going though. But I know that's what some would say about the first vid.

[andyhaas]

As per gong-fu revival, how about just putting a sword into it and making sure it's dead?

Move on to something else? Like sticking a sword into karate, too, and TKD ... putting them out of their misery?

[bawang]

As per gong-fu revival, how about just putting a sword into it and making sure it's dead?

Move on to something else? Like sticking a sword into karate, too, and TKD ... putting them out of their misery?

the bones of kung fu has turned to ash a long time ago. I am the bacteria that remains.

[SPJ]

This arises from another thread.

What do we need to do to revive Gongfu and will this revival start in China proper of arise from the West.

1 wushu as a performance gymnastic comp.

2 sanshou as a fighting with rules.

3 wushu as physical culture and education/research.

4 qi gong as exercise for health and fitness.

---

As we all know firearms took the place of fists and arrows centuries ago.

:cool: