Can TCMA and Christianity mix?

[Wuxia007]

Can a Christian practice TCMA without violating Christian doctrine/beliefs? For example; bowing to school alters, practicing Daoist concepts in taiji quan, the concept of Qi, practicing and/or promoting styles that are rooted in temples that worship deities other than the Judeo-Christian god, etc.

This question is not about arguing for which faith or religion is true. That's a completely different subject. Also, This question is not limited to only Christians. This question can be applied to many other faiths and/or circumstances in relation to practicing TCMA. People of all faiths are more than welcome to participate. I would love to hear your opinion. All I ask is for no religion bashing. Please be respectful.

[lkfmdc]

The old testement forbids graven images, yet the church certainly led to the production of many images of Jesus and Mary that were in effect worshiped. This led within Christianity to the debate over "icons" which at times was as violent as any crusade. Should we even mention that the old testement and the religion of Jesus himself taught that there is only ONE G'd.. and in many ways the doctrine of the holy trinity contradicts this.

Or perhaps we should mention that prior to about 350 AD at least half of those who indentified themselves as Christians din't in fact believe in the trinity and when forced to either conform or be cast out, they left and became Muslims.

Are martial arts in fact "religious"? Currenlty reading Meir Shahar and he argues rather convincingly that fighting was completely divorced from all these elements until the late Ming. He also has an entire chapter devoted to how Daoism,, Buddhism and Confucianism melted into eachother seemlessly, leading to the confusion so many westerners have as to what is really what

But I digress

[XinKuzi]

Sure. Why not?

It's up to you. If you're uptight, then you probably will see problems with mixing the two. If you're a reasonable person who happens to be Christian, while also being interested in Chinese martial arts - you will likely not see a reason to limit yourself to new experiences and perspectives. You will also most likely be a happier individual than the uptight type.

[YouKnowWho]

If your opponent punches on your right side of your face, you suppose to let him to punch on your left side of your face. If your opponent doesn't do that, you should punch yourself on the left side of your face, and help him to knock you out.

[-N-]

Just make sure to forgive after getting hit on the other cheek.

[lkfmdc]

If your opponent punches on your right side of your face, you suppose to let him to punch on your left side of your face. If your opponent doesn't do that, you should punch yourself on the left side of your face, and help him to knock you out.

I see what you did there..........

[Kellen Bassette]

The old testement forbids graven images, yet the church certainly led to the production of many images of Jesus and Mary that were in effect worshiped. This led within Christianity to the debate over "icons" which at times was as violent as any crusade. Should we even mention that the old testement and the religion of Jesus himself taught that there is only ONE G'd.. and in many ways the doctrine of the holy trinity contradicts this.

Or perhaps we should mention that prior to about 350 AD at least half of those who indentified themselves as Christians din't in fact believe in the trinity and when forced to either conform or be cast out, they left and became Muslims.



The graven images thing is prevalent in Catholicism and was imported from other religions. It is not common in most other branches of Christianity.

Many Protestant churches have continued the monotheistic doctrine from Judaism....that should probably be clarified when referring to Christians and the Trinity...it certainly doesn't apply to all branches....

[lkfmdc]

Many Protestant churches have continued the monotheistic doctrine from Judaism....that should probably be clarified when referring to Christians and the Trinity...it certainly doesn't apply to all branches....

Do you know a protestant movement that doesn't believe in the father, the son and the holy ghost?

[crazedjustice88]

I am a very devout christian...for crying out loud I am a professional gospel and opera singer hahaha

What my sifu teaches me does not contradict my faith at all. He is a very devout buddhist and he knows I won't do certain things but he does not take offense to it at all. All of my church and my christian friends know I do TCMA. I even work at a sex shop and I'm still a virgin, waiting till marriage. It all depends on you the individual if you are able to separate certain things since some people are not able to and thats where the conflicts of faiths begin.

This is all my opinion haha

[GeneChing]

He'd been with us for some time. Then one day, he asked what the altar was, which was sort of funny as at that school, it dominated the feng shui, so it was really hard to overlook. After he left, I figured that if it took him that long to ask, he probably wasn't cut out for Kung Fu anyways.

We have two related threads to this:
Christian Martial Arts Union (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=44709)
Martial Arts & Religion (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=49824)

[mooyingmantis]

Can a Christian practice TCMA without violating Christian doctrine/beliefs? For example; bowing to school alters, practicing Daoist concepts in taiji quan, the concept of Qi, practicing and/or promoting styles that are rooted in temples that worship deities other than the Judeo-Christian god, etc.

Unfortunately, it will depend on the views of one's own church/denomination as to the answer to your question. Church/denominational views are too diverse for any one person to answer this question.

I went to college and majored in theology. After which I was ordained as a conservative, fundamentalist, Pentecostal minister. Afterwards, I served in Christian ministry for fourteen years. Though I was always given grief for my practice of martial arts, by religious people, I never felt that the two were contradictory.

I practices you mention above are rarely found in US TCMA schools. I was never required to bow to an altar or accept any oriental religious beliefs. Even when I trained in China these practices were not required. So, I think it is a moot point. :)

[lkfmdc]

He'd been with us for some time. Then one day, he asked what the altar was, which was sort of funny as at that school, it dominated the feng shui, so it was really hard to overlook. After he left, I figured that if it took him that long to ask, he probably wasn't cut out for Kung Fu anyways.

We have two related threads to this:
Christian Martial Arts Union (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=44709)
Martial Arts & Religion (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=49824)

Chan Tai San's manhattan school had an altar that was literally like a little kid's play shed, it was HUGE, you could walk INTO it and on any major occasion it would be the site of burning crap, tons of incense and piles of pork. One student asked if there was anything religious about it, and my hing-dai with the crazy sense of humor said "no, why'd you think that"
and the student just went "OK"

:D

[Kellen Bassette]

Do you know a protestant movement that doesn't believe in the father, the son and the holy ghost?

I know many protestant organizations that believe the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost are different manifestations of one God.

For example, it is taught that Jesus was a man that God lived in, "He who has seen me has seen the Father," the Holy Spirit is taught as the spirit of God...it is called "Oneness" doctrine and is quite common...

A typical analogy would be to say that you may be a father, a husband, a coach, a business owner, but one person...it differs from Trinitarian theology which views Father, Son and Holy ghost as three separate entities, instead of different manifestations of the same entity....

[wenshu]

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-GEzxmMDv7g4/Uh1t5-MGvyI/AAAAAAAAAM4/sX1Vp5pZeaI/s1600/d1ccdecad1dcfc294e63623fb10a69e8.jpg

[GeneChing]

Our altar stood prominently in the hall and all the students faced it and bowed to it before and after classes. I remember thinking "you're asking me now?"

[Kellen Bassette]

Martial Arts and militaries everywhere have always attempted to align themselves with their religions. Killing needs justification.

[lkfmdc]

Our altar stood prominently in the hall and all the students faced it and bowed to it before and after classes. I remember thinking "you're asking me now?"

silly old sifu, it's not the size of the altar, it's what you do with it :D

[mawali]

Can a Christian practice TCMA without violating Christian doctrine/beliefs? For example; bowing to school alters, practicing Daoist concepts in taiji quan, the concept of Qi, practicing and/or promoting styles that are rooted in temples that worship deities other than the Judeo-Christian god, etc.

This question is not about arguing for which faith or religion is true. That's a completely different subject. Also, This question is not limited to only Christians. This question can be applied to many other faiths and/or circumstances in relation to practicing TCMA. People of all faiths are more than welcome to participate. I would love to hear your opinion. All I ask is for no religion bashing. Please be respectful.


WTF!
What do you mean by not violating Christian doctrine? It is Ok to come to someone's land and take it from them and put the people in reservations while enslaving men in the name of freedom just to fill your pocketbooks then bomb innocent women and children (aka the casualties of war) and say you are providng freedom of speech and the exercise therof of BS! Am I missing something here? He who has the most weapons will definitely win as long as it is backed by a religion that bless the powers to win at any cost.

[TaichiMantis]

Yes :rolleyes: ( to the original question )

[Yum Cha]

When you see Christian, Jewish and Muslim clerics get together and celebrate festivals as one, say a Christmas celebration, are 2 of the 3 violating their beliefs?
Your beliefs are your own, paying respects to other people's beliefs only compromises you if you feel the differences as opposed to the common ground.
Christians light candles and pray for departed. Taoists light incense. Atheists ponder while religious pray. If difference is what you look for, you'll find it. The same is true of common ground.
I was schooled in lay taoism by a crazy old monk who made the point repeatedly that they accommodate all religions and faiths by the choices available to exercise the religion. Which part you used and how you practiced.
If a 'devout' Christian has issues with Lion Dancing and showing respect at an altar as worshiping Idols, I'l like to know how they feel about iPhones, BMWs and Ray Bans.... Just to frame the conversation.

[Kellen Bassette]

WTF!
What do you mean by not violating Christian doctrine? It is Ok to come to someone's land and take it from them and put the people in reservations while enslaving men in the name of freedom just to fill your pocketbooks then bomb innocent women and children (aka the casualties of war) and say you are providng freedom of speech and the exercise therof of BS! Am I missing something here? He who has the most weapons will definitely win as long as it is backed by a religion that bless the powers to win at any cost.

I think you'd be hard pressed to find any of that in sync with the teachings of Christ...now what people do in His name, that's quite another thing....

[Kellen Bassette]

When you see Christian, Jewish and Muslim clerics get together and celebrate festivals as one, say a Christmas celebration, are 2 of the 3 violating their beliefs?
Your beliefs are your own, paying respects to other people's beliefs only compromises you if you feel the differences as opposed to the common ground.
Christians light candles and pray for departed. Taoists light incense. Atheists ponder while religious pray. If difference is what you look for, you'll find it. The same is true of common ground.
I was schooled in lay taoism by a crazy old monk who made the point repeatedly that they accommodate all religions and faiths by the choices available to exercise the religion. Which part you used and how you practiced.
If a 'devout' Christian has issues with Lion Dancing and showing respect at an altar as worshiping Idols, I'l like to know how they feel about iPhones, BMWs and Ray Bans.... Just to frame the conversation.

This sort of common sense has no place in religion or TCMA!

[Lucas]

If you practice TCMA, you will go to hell. It doesn't matter what religion you belong to.

[Wuxia007]

Some interesting points everyone on this thread are making.

The question came to me after hearing a small argument over whether or not a Christian should practice yoga because of its connection to the Hindu religion.

As a Christian, my personal opinion is that its not about the history or origin of a given practice, but rather the individual's motive or reason for doing it that determines whether or not said practice violates their belief system. Practices change and evolve all the time. If as a Christian I could not practice TCMA because many of its practices are rooted in other belief systems, then the same could be argued against the practice of celebrating Christmas which used to be a pagan holiday.

[-N-]

If you practice TCMA, you will go to hell. It doesn't matter what religion you belong to.

What if I just watch a lot of Donnie Yen movies?

[bawang]

choy lee fut is Christian kung fu. its the only style of kung fu endorsed by jesus.

cha quan and tan tui are halal.

[PalmStriker]

Jesus was very fond of Judoism.

[pazman]

The only god that is valid is the one that gives me special fighting power.

Therefore, I pray to Jinnaluo.

[bawang]

if your religion says don't worship idols, then you asks if its ok to worship idols, then yes, its ok to worship idols.

[PalmStriker]

:) As long as you don't watch American Idol on TV, it's OK to practice idolatry. It's a lot like having sports altars with bobbleHeads. BuddhaBobbleHeads are all-omnipotent.

[PalmStriker]

I worship SwordMaster Jesus (the Return of). :)

[lkfmdc]

If you practice TCMA, you will go to hell.



Well first, you end up posting here... and after a few years in Kungfu Magazine Forums, hell hardly bothers you at all

[lkfmdc]

"he's a druid"

"what does that mean"?

"they worship at trees".

"oh"

"but he's reformed...."

"so"?

"he can worship at just bushes".....

[pazman]

"he can worship at just bushes".....

Some bushes are worth worshiping.:)

[-N-]

Some bushes are worth worshiping.:)


At the very least kneeling before:D

Welcome to the 1970's :p

[HammockRider]

if the god of your choice doesn't mention TCMA specifically in his religious doctrine then I figure it's a matter of interpretation. And interpretations can be wrong. they're just someone's opinion. So ask God yourself. You don't need a go-between or an organization to talk to him. He certainly wouldn't need one to talk to you.

the responses have been interesting and funny but seriously, you can decide for yourself. There isn't a pastor or theologian alive who has a better hotline to God than anyone else. Unless you think God is a Chicago alderman. Then you definitely want to know somebody.

[lkfmdc]

Welcome to the 1970's :p

I seem to recall that North American bush survived into the mid 1990's but currently is on the endangered list

[lkfmdc]

"Wild Beaver Alive and Well In Canada" local reports.... and in other news

[Kellen Bassette]

Jesus was very fond of Judoism.

I'm pretty sure he would be a Krav Maga guy....

[TaichiMantis]

Matthew 10:34
New International Version (NIV)
34 “Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword.

:eek:

[David Jamieson]

The old testement forbids graven images, yet the church certainly led to the production of many images of Jesus and Mary that were in effect worshiped. This led within Christianity to the debate over "icons" which at times was as violent as any crusade. Should we even mention that the old testement and the religion of Jesus himself taught that there is only ONE G'd.. and in many ways the doctrine of the holy trinity contradicts this.

Or perhaps we should mention that prior to about 350 AD at least half of those who indentified themselves as Christians din't in fact believe in the trinity and when forced to either conform or be cast out, they left and became Muslims.

Are martial arts in fact "religious"? Currenlty reading Meir Shahar and he argues rather convincingly that fighting was completely divorced from all these elements until the late Ming. He also has an entire chapter devoted to how Daoism,, Buddhism and Confucianism melted into eachother seemlessly, leading to the confusion so many westerners have as to what is really what

But I digress

The Catholics got rid of that commandment. They got the loophole on the idols and graven images that way. I know, it's weird, but they did it in the name of...?

Tanakh 10 commandments: (abridged -exodus 20 if you're interested)
1.You shall not have the gods of others in My presence.

2. You shall not make for yourself a graven image or any likeness

3. You shall not take the name of the Lord, your God, in vain

4. Remember the Sabbath day to sanctify it.

5. Honor your father and your mother

6. You shall not murder.

7. You shall not commit adultery.

8. You shall not steal.

9. You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.

10. You shall not covet your neighbor's house. You shall not covet your neighbor's wife, his manservant, his maidservant, his ox, his donkey, or whatever belongs to your neighbor."


RC Church 10 Commandments:
1. I, the Lord, am your God. You shall not have other gods besides me.

2. You shall not take the name of the Lord God in vain

3. Remember to keep holy the Lord's Day

4. Honor your father and your mother

5. You shall not kill

6. You shall not commit adultery

7. You shall not steal

8. You shall not bear false witness

9. You shall not covet your neighbor's wife

10. You shall not covet your neighbor's goods


Discuss? :p

[Syn7]

You shall not kill

You shall not steal

You shall not bear false witness

You shall not covet...

Those are good rules, the rest is bull****. But the last one has caveats and exceptions. Once you pass a certain standard of living, wanting more and more makes you a douche, but if you're starving and your neighbour has feasts every night, then yeah, you're gonna want some of that.

Some parents don't deserve to be honoured.

Adultery is complicated. You shouldn't steal kind of applies there. And yeah, it's a dick move to cheat on your significant other, married or not, but I don't put it on the same level as don't kill people, steal their **** then frame someone else for it...

[David Jamieson]

You shall not kill

You shall not steal

You shall not bear false witness

You shall not covet...

Those are good rules, the rest is bull****. But the last one has caveats and exceptions. Once you pass a certain standard of living, wanting more and more makes you a douche, but if you're starving and your neighbour has feasts every night, then yeah, you're gonna want some of that.

Some parents don't deserve to be honoured.

Adultery is complicated. You shouldn't steal kind of applies there. And yeah, it's a dick move to cheat on your significant other, married or not, but I don't put it on the same level as don't kill people, steal their **** then frame someone else for it...

You could say that none of them are mutually exclusive and by abiding by them you can achieve an amicable social construct. But as humans are humans, you make good points.

[mooyingmantis]

... prior to about 350 AD at least half of those who indentified themselves as Christians din't in fact believe in the trinity and when forced to either conform or be cast out, they left and became Muslims.

The doctrine of the trinity developed over time.

The earliest form of the "church" was a small Jewish community centered in Jerusalem. They practiced Judaism and held to the belief that Yehoshua (Jesus) was the prophesied Anointed One (mashiach/messiah) who would deliver them from Roman oppression.

During the time that the Apostles and their immediate Jewish successors were in control of the movement, the teaching of the trinity was no where to be found (based on their writings).

After non-Jews (Gentiles) were allowed to become a part of the movement, the "church" quickly grew to the point where non-Jews became the controlling force in the movement.

Once the Gentiles had numerical control of the "church", the number of Jewish believers began to fade. In time, the Gentile believers disfellowshipped Jewish believers that did not forsake their Jewish religious practices. It was during this time that much of what modern Christians today believe was debated and formalized.

No historical evidence tells us what actually became of the disfellowshipped Jewish believers. Some may have renounced their belief in the messiah and returned to rabbinic controlled Judaism. Some may have taken their beliefs to the grave. I know of no historical evidence that they converted to Islam.

Mohammed was born in 570 A.D./C.E. which is hundreds of years after the events described above. The Quran was not codified until after the death of Mohammed in 632 C.E. Though some Muslims say Islam began in 610 C.E. when Mohammed received his first vision from the Archangel Gabriel.

So, the idea that Jewish believers converted to Islam is highly unlikely, since their movement had died out a couple hundred years before.

[bawang]

http://www.josephus.org/causesOfWar.htm

[Jimbo]

Regarding what not to do, 'You shall not murder' is more appropriate than 'You shall not kill'. Because there are circumstances when taking a life may be justified, but murder can never be justified.

[PalmStriker]

If you're not a Buddhist, Taoist, or non-religious spirit you should not practice Kungfu or eat Chinese food, leaves more for me. :):D:) Especially eggrolls and plum sauce. https://www.google.com/search?q=chinese+egg+rolls+and+plum+sauce&client=firefox-a&hs=pOI&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=3JyJUvysO8eo4APgx4DgAw&ved=0CHMQsAQ&biw=1440&bih=807

[mawali]

So, the idea that Jewish believers converted to Islam is highly unlikely, since their movement had died out a couple hundred years before.

There were Jews who lived amongst the Muslim tribes but as time progressed the latter became very antagonistic towards the other 2 religions. Christians were a strong part of the Middle East but intolerance drove down the numbers over time.
Many times, the Jews acted as intermediaries between Muslims and Christians.
My time frame is 711-1492:p

[David Jamieson]

Regarding what not to do, 'You shall not murder' is more appropriate than 'You shall not kill'. Because there are circumstances when taking a life may be justified, but murder can never be justified.

This supposes that we all don't follow the rules as given.

To that end, yep, it takes one person to screw it up for millions.

As for Christianity, for the most part, Christians can't get along among themselves, subscribe to different things and go out of focus all over the place about what's important. Judging by all the people in prison and the level of homelessness and wanton greed and lust for power that is exercised I'd say there aren't many Christians in North America anyway.

[SPJ]

If your opponent punches on your right side of your face, you suppose to let him to punch on your left side of your face. If your opponent doesn't do that, you should punch yourself on the left side of your face, and help him to knock you out.

Fighting is a means and not an end.

To achieve your tentative compromise or peace is the end.

We fluctuate between fights and tentative truces all the time.

There are many people that like Ye Fei the general fighting for Southern Song dynasty.

There are not that many people that like Qin Kuai the minister negotiated for a truce among Jin, Liao and Song.

Yin and yang coexist.

War and peace coexist.

Turing your other cheek or exchanging fists coexist.

It is a circle of Tao.

It is

--

:)

[SPJ]

We may find conflicts of interests between 2 parties or 2 songs.

We may also find harmony or mutually acceptable compromise/middle ground between 2 parties or 2 songs.

Listen to 2 different tunes of songs. And then listen to the harmony of 2 different songs.

Arts of wars and arts of peace.

That is.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z5Xv97raW7w

[sanjuro_ronin]

The only issue that any Christian can have with any for of MA is if that MA advocates worship of any kind of spirit or deity.
Christianity has no specific doctrine of "non-violence" other than a few interpretations of "turn the other cheek".
The issues of "just war" or "holy war" are man-made.
Theocratic war was done only in YHWH's name and ONLY be sanction of YHWH via a proven prophet and that time has passed and then some.
Christianity leaves the use or non-use of violence to the individual believer, after all, it is HIM/HER that will answer to God for what they do and why they do it.
As for the rest of this thread and some of the "educated" views on Christianity, all I can say as I have said before is that Google does NOT = knowledge.
I though I had a good understanding of Christian doctrine myself but I was shown have very lacking that was in the first year of Theology class.
Truly, we do NOT know as much as we think we do.
Religious doctrines are never simple and reading MA debating them is like reading about two rabbis arguing about wing chun because they saw IP Man.

[bawang]

this is compatible with TCMA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HswNka-jXU8
this is not
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wJ_Ywm7356Y

[GeneChing]

More pix if you follow the link.


Martial Arts group takes ‘leap of faith’ (http://www.sedaliademocrat.com/news/home_top-localsports1/50129802/Martial-Arts-group-takes-leap-of-faith#.U-uHI2OaKsI)
Last updated: August 12. 2014 9:15PM - 154 Views
By Jason Strickland - jstrickland@civitasmedia.com

http://peweb.htl.dc.publicus.com/apps/pbcsi.dll/storyimage/PE/20140812/news/308129942/AR/0/AR-308129942.jpg&MaxH=250&MaxW=300

The State Fair brings a variety of people and entertainment to the fairgrounds, but one group of entertainers has created a completely different life for themselves.

Team Rock performs martial arts three times a day on the Ditzfeld stage, breaking concrete blocks and flaming wooden boards in a variety of ways.

But their fair shows are only a small part of what they do all year.

“We are also a Christian ministry group so we do a lot of creative outreach for Christianity, which allows us the opportunity to travel all over the place,” said Team Rock member Kyle Palmer.

The 33-year old helped start the team in 2009. He said the United States didn’t have an extreme breaking team, so Team Rock became the country’s official representative in the sport.

“We’ve traveled literally all over the world,” Palmer said. “I’ve almost been to every continent with the team.”

Antarctica and South America are the only continents the team hasn’t traveled to. Palmer said the four-person team rotates members frequently.

“We’re always looking for new team members,” he said. “People that are willing to do this kind of work, willing to travel, willing to give up a lot to do what we do.”

Palmer lives in a camper with his wife and adopted son, while the other members share another camper.

Caleb Richmond, 21, joined the group with Cody Hansel nearly three months ago.

“I sold everything I had and now I’m on Team Rock,” Richmond said. “It was a huge leap of faith. I was going to join the Army, so I already had things lined up to sell and leave but I’ve never traveled all over or anything.”

He added that he was scared at first, but felt like he couldn’t pass up the opportunity.

“This isn’t an ordinary job,” he said. “It’s a once in a lifetime opportunity, so I decided to go with it.”

Alex “Jin” Algar is the fourth member of the team. He mostly does flips while breaking wooden boards. Richmond also does some leaping and flipping tricks, while Hansel and Palmer provide the muscle.

Palmer said he holds multiple martial arts records, including breaking 15 concrete blocks with his forearm.

“It’s actually isn’t a power thing, it’s a speed thing,” he said. “It’s a combination of both.”

The team is on tour most of the year, only taking breaks during Thanksgiving and Christmas.

Richmond said he’s gotten used to traveling and living in a camper and added that he’s enjoying entertaining a variety of audiences.

“I’m still getting used to signing autographs and kids wanting my autograph,” he said. “That’s way over my head.”

[Pipefighter]

If you train martial arts to protect the oppressed, you are keeping in line with the Bible.

If you train to be a bully, to be the oppressor, or to enjoy violence and blood shed you are going against the teaching of the Bible.

Jesus said at the end, cowards have no place in Heaven. Revelation 21:8.

Cowardice is a bigger problem among christians than violence, imo.

Christians who don't understand martial arts will say that TCMA is evil because they see videos like mysterious chi power, or qigong stuff, and see form drills and assume that it is a spiritual dance for some strange god. Lots of christians wrestle, play lacrosse, football - these were all originally methods of training for battle, so essentially martial arts. TCMA is misrepresented to christians by media and by spiritual guru hacks as being a spiritual practice and not a martial practice.

When you say "TCMA" to a christian with no M.A. Background, this is what they are picturing:
902490259026

[Pipefighter]

Do you know a protestant movement that doesn't believe in the father, the son and the holy ghost?

Unfortunately, yes. Unitarians. Those guys really bug me...

[sanjuro_ronin]

Unfortunately, yes. Unitarians. Those guys really bug me...

Not just Unitarians though.
Jehovah's Witnesses, Christadelphians, Christian sciences, Oneness pentacostals and a few more.

[sanjuro_ronin]

It is important to understand that the Trinity doctrine is a doctrine of Nature and simply states that Father, Son and HS share the same nature.

[lkfmdc]

It is important to understand that the Trinity doctrine is a doctrine of Nature and simply states that Father, Son and HS share the same nature.

Not to start a religious war, but there is NOTHING "simple" about the Trinity.. it is an elaborate mental gymnastic to resolve fundamental theological problems .....

The best thing I have read on it is in fact "How Jesus Became God"
http://www.amazon.com/How-Jesus-Became-God-Exaltation/dp/0061778184

[sanjuro_ronin]

Not to start a religious war, but there is NOTHING "simple" about the Trinity.. it is an elaborate mental gymnastic to resolve fundamental theological problems .....

The best thing I have read on it is in fact "How Jesus Became God"
http://www.amazon.com/How-Jesus-Became-God-Exaltation/dp/0061778184

Actually, it is quite simple, its people that try to make it what it isn't that complicate things.
I read Bart's book, as I read his others.
Bart is not on the ball on this one, he seems to be working from a preconceived view ( the apparition hypothesis) and trying to justify it.
Here is the view of one of the scholars he references in his book:
http://larryhurtado.wordpress.com/2014/05/29/how-jesus-became-god-per-ehrman/

[lkfmdc]

Actually, it is quite simple, its people that try to make it what it isn't that complicate things.
I read Bart's book, as I read his others.
Bart is not on the ball on this one, he seems to be working from a preconceived view ( the apparition hypothesis) and trying to justify it.
Here is the view of one of the scholars he references in his book:
http://larryhurtado.wordpress.com/2014/05/29/how-jesus-became-god-per-ehrman/

I'm not really talking about the G'd issue or even Jesus on this one, rather the mental and political gymnastics around Nicea and the Trinity concept

[sanjuro_ronin]

I'm not really talking about the G'd issue or even Jesus on this one, rather the mental and political gymnastics around Nicea and the Trinity concept

Oh yes, 100% agree.

Sure the Greek Hellenistic culture didn't help but ****, if they could have made it even more complicated and confusing, I'd like to see how !
LOL !
I think that if there is a doctrine in need of "modern grammatical reform" it probably is the trinity doctrine.

[Pipefighter]

+1

I think there is some serious depth to the concept of "trinity", which honestly goes beyond understanding. I don't think it hast ti be tangibly grasped though.

About oneness pentacostals, i thought they were under the umbrella of unitarinaism. My personal experience with jehova's witnesses, mormons, c. Scientists, is that they view the trinity pretty closely to catholics, whith marginal differences of stipulations.

But here's one:

How do you "let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works and glorify your Father who is in Heaven?" Since we show ourselves most in adverse situations, and our salvation comes not by works, lest any man should boast

[Kellen Bassette]

The trinity originated with Catholicism. Judaism, Islam, early Christianity and all other Abrahamic traditions, not stemming from the Roman Catholic Church, are monotheistic.
There are plenty of monotheistic branches of Christianity that get lumped into the "protestant" category.

[Pipefighter]

The trinity originated with Catholicism. Judaism, Islam, early Christianity and all other Abrahamic traditions, not stemming from the Roman Catholic Church, are monotheistic.
There are plenty of monotheistic branches of Christianity that get lumped into the "protestant" category.

Meh...
Perhaps the word as a doctrine. You've got a tremendous amount of imagery all the way back to Abraham and God's visit to him as 3 men, to visions to Daniel with multi part God head creatures, plus all the comments of Jesus during his time... "I do only the will of the Father". "It's better that I go so that the comforter will come, the one who instructs"... "Call no man teacher, for there is only one teacher...no man father because we have one father..." Yeah i'm not getting perfect quotes there. Off the top off my head.

However, i am all for tearing down the lingo that we seem to settle back into. We say things like trinity, salvation, the way, faith, grace, light, all having a specific doctrinal meanings rather than personal knowledge from living out the truth in the scriptures. Thats a slippery slope. Easy to find ourselves in the same situation the devout Teachers of the law were when Jesus showed up on the scene

[Kellen Bassette]

Meh...
Perhaps the word as a doctrine. You've got a tremendous amount of imagery all the way back to Abraham and God's visit to him as 3 men, to visions to Daniel with multi part God head creatures, plus all the comments of Jesus during his time... "I do only the will of the Father". "It's better that I go so that the comforter will come, the one who instructs"... "Call no man teacher, for there is only one teacher...no man father because we have one father..." Yeah i'm not getting perfect quotes there. Off the top off my head.

However, i am all for tearing down the lingo that we seem to settle back into. We say things like trinity, salvation, the way, faith, grace, light, all having a specific doctrinal meanings rather than personal knowledge from living out the truth in the scriptures. Thats a slippery slope. Easy to find ourselves in the same situation the devout Teachers of the law were when Jesus showed up on the scene

Not getting into the interpretations of what the scriptures meant, we all know that a 3 different people can read the same thing and come up with 4 different meanings....just saying, Judaism; and by extension the first Christians, were monotheistic. The doctrine of the trinity was later established by the Catholics.

[Pipefighter]

Not getting into the interpretations of what the scriptures meant, we all know that a 3 different people can read the same thing and come up with 4 different meanings....just saying, Judaism; and by extension the first Christians, were monotheistic. The doctrine of the trinity was later established by the Catholics.

True, imagery is very subjective. A christian should take the word of the one that has made him a desciple:

John 17:1-5 When Jesus had finished saying these things, he looked upward to heaven and said, “Father, the time has come. Glorify your Son, so that your Son may glorify you— just as you have given him authority over all humanity, so that he may give eternal life to everyone you have given him. Now this is eternal life—that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you sent. I glorified you on earth by completing the work you gave me to do. And now, Father, glorify me at your side with the glory I had with you before the world was created.

John 14:16-18, 25-26 Then I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Advocate to be with you forever— the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot accept, because it does not see him or know him. But you know him, because he resides with you and will be in you. “I will not abandon you as orphans, I will come to you.
“I have spoken these things while staying with you. But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you everything, and will cause you to remember everything I said to you.

Matthew 28:18-19 Then Jesus came up and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,

I'm a monotheist. I believe there is only one God, which is expressed in the Father, the Son, the Spirit. That is expressed in a multiplicitus way that goes much deeper than human philosophy can simply explain or interpret. We only just stumbled onto physics. Why do we think we can dissect the the nature of something eternal. I'll take the word of Jesus at face value here without trying to make any interpretations, since those ones are cut and dry statements

[sanjuro_ronin]

Not getting into the interpretations of what the scriptures meant, we all know that a 3 different people can read the same thing and come up with 4 different meanings....just saying, Judaism; and by extension the first Christians, were monotheistic. The doctrine of the trinity was later established by the Catholics.

Trinity IS monotheistic.
The triune formulas were used in the first and second centuries already.
The notion that Christ, the Son of God, was God ( what else could he be if He was the Son of God?) was present in the writings of Paul ( within 30 years of Christ's death if not sooner), John, Peter and their first generation students.

The Trinity doctrine was formalized and developed to address the Arian controversy and view that Christ was a CREATED being and not "begotten" of God.

[sanjuro_ronin]

True, imagery is very subjective. A christian should take the word of the one that has made him a desciple:

John 17:1-5 When Jesus had finished saying these things, he looked upward to heaven and said, “Father, the time has come. Glorify your Son, so that your Son may glorify you— just as you have given him authority over all humanity, so that he may give eternal life to everyone you have given him. Now this is eternal life—that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you sent. I glorified you on earth by completing the work you gave me to do. And now, Father, glorify me at your side with the glory I had with you before the world was created.

John 14:16-18, 25-26 Then I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Advocate to be with you forever— the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot accept, because it does not see him or know him. But you know him, because he resides with you and will be in you. “I will not abandon you as orphans, I will come to you.
“I have spoken these things while staying with you. But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you everything, and will cause you to remember everything I said to you.

Matthew 28:18-19 Then Jesus came up and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,

John' Gospel, especially chapter 1, and the writings of Paul to the Colosians and Philippians make it clear that Son and father were of the same nature, as does Hebrews and passages in Jude, Peter and so forth, not to mention Revelation.

The issue is actually very simple:
IS Christ the incarnate Word of God? then He is God.

The confusion tends to be that people associate the term GOD for a personal name, the name of the FATHER of Christ and they get into the incorrect mindset that If Christ is God then He is His own father or some silliness like that.

No, what it means that that Father and Son are of the same nature and essences and as such, both are God.

Just like a human father and son are both human ( not exactly the same thing of course but it is the first step in understanding what the Trinity doctrine is supposed to mean).

[RenDaHai]

I really want to understand the trinity but I find it quite difficult.

Perhaps you would help?

Is it a hierarchy of sorts?

Think about a Shadow. A shadow is not begotten, it is appears with the thing. However the thing moves, the shadow must move also. Looking only at the shadow it is impossible to guess the shape of the thing. A shadow and the thing are one, the shadow cannot be torn from it nor forced to act contrary to it. If the thing ceases to exist so too does the shadow. The shadow is born the same instant as the thing.

In the Pagan philosophies of the time (200 A.D?) they also use triune formulas. The trinities are described more this way, as shadows.

So in this way Jesus would be a shadow of the father, the father a shadow of the ghost. So they are all one, but each of different order.

If we ourselves are then a shadow of Jesus, then we should try to imitate Jesus, this is the best we can hope for. If we tried to imitate the Ghost it would be madness because the Ghost is several orders above, like a 6 dimensional shape, unknowable, ineffable, beyond any attempt to comprehend. But Jesus we CAN imitate and aspire to. Jesus is then a comprehensible manifestation of 'the one who is', shown to us because he is the best we are ever capable of understanding.

In this way then god is simultaneously one and many.

Is it like this, where the Father is greater than Jesus, though both are one, or is it not like this at all?

[sanjuro_ronin]

I really want to understand the trinity but I find it quite difficult.

Perhaps you would help?

Is it a hierarchy of sorts?

Think about a Shadow. A shadow is not begotten, it is appears with the thing. However the thing moves, the shadow must move also. Looking only at the shadow it is impossible to guess the shape of the thing. A shadow and the thing are one, the shadow cannot be torn from it nor forced to act contrary to it. If the thing ceases to exist so too does the shadow. The shadow is born the same instant as the thing.

In the Pagan philosophies of the time (200 A.D?) they also use triune formulas. The trinities are described more this way, as shadows.

So in this way Jesus would be a shadow of the father, the father a shadow of the ghost. So they are all one, but each of different order.

If we ourselves are then a shadow of Jesus, then we should try to imitate Jesus, this is the best we can hope for. If we tried to imitate the Ghost it would be madness because the Ghost is several orders above, like a 6 dimensional shape, unknowable, ineffable, beyond any attempt to comprehend. But Jesus we CAN imitate and aspire to. Jesus is then a comprehensible manifestation of 'the one who is', shown to us because he is the best we are ever capable of understanding.

In this way then god is simultaneously one and many.

Is it like this, where the Father is greater than Jesus, though both are one, or is it not like this at all?

It is a doctrine of Nature.
The son of God is begotten by God and what is begotten has the same nature of what is begetting.
God begets God.
But isn't that polytheisim? doesn't that make Jesus "a god"?
Only if we were speaking of the MATERIAL world.
The perfect union of Father, Son and Spirit makes all 3 God ( by nature) and all 3 separate ( per personality).
The spiritual nature of God makes this union possible.

The are NOT 3 different manifestations of the same God nor are they 3 different Gods, nor are they "shadows" of each other.

Paul says it well here and here:

Colossians:
The Incomparable Christ
13 For He rescued us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son, 14 in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.

15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. 16 For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him. 17 He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together. 18 He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything. 19 For it was the Father’s good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him, 20 and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven.

Philippians:
5 Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. 8 Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. 9 For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, 10 so that at the name of Jesus every knee will bow, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father

[RenDaHai]

Thanks for this, I will try to contemplate these. I still find it quite difficult.

[Pipefighter]

I can relate about it being hard to understand. Perhaps even impossible to understand in a verbal way. If there was a good metaphor to relate it, i think Jesus would have painted that word picture. Instead he said, "I and the father are one" "you believe in Him, believe also in Me" "I only do the will of Him who sent Me".

Theologians can take up a lot of pages trying to explain the tiniest of detail and nuance about such a concept as a spiritual oneness and division in a realm that they have never even been too, talking about things that they cant even comprehend mathematically, let alone with the added layers of morality...
(No insult to you Ronin, i'm tracking)

Some things can only be understood by practice, and only in a way that cant really be explained, but if you get it, and i get, we can relate. One saying from the bible i have come to like is this 1 Corinthians 3:19-20 For the wisdom of this world is folly with God. For it is written, “He catches the wise in their craftiness,” and again, “The Lord knows the thoughts of the wise, that they are futile.”

Here is a metaphor about why it isnt so important to understand every subtle perceived nuance of a deep concept like "trinity":

When my teacher showed me a variation of a front cut where I am going to jump into it, he said
"Move in the moment you feel safe... Move in cautiously until you feel safe, then pounce like a tiger and devour him"

I can relate to this feeling, so i dont need a 15 page explanation of what he is talking about, how my blood flow in my pelvis should be channeled at that moment, whether my opponents toes should be pointed up in the air during the throw, or towards the side. I can relate to the feeling he is talking about because i practice what he teaches.
IMO, it is the same concept with christianity and understanding all the super deep points of spiritual existence. Some times you just have to take that little mustard seed and just let it grow.

[David Jamieson]

It is a human concept. Perpetuated by humans.
A trinity concept isn't that hard to get though. It's a common thread in a lot of religions.

Heaven> Earth> Man for instance.

1>2>3>10,000

Vishnu/Bramha/Siva

Jesus/God/ The Holy Spirit

and so on it goes.

It can't be reconciled because it demands faith. It has nothing at all to do with reason, logic or rationale.

[RenDaHai]

It is a human concept. Perpetuated by humans.
A trinity concept isn't that hard to get though. It's a common thread in a lot of religions.


I understand it when its a hierarchy of orders, that makes perfect sense to me, but this is a little more mysterious.
I sense there is something profound I am missing.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b3/Shield-Trinity-Scutum-Fidei-English.svg

[Kellen Bassette]

In the Pagan philosophies of the time (200 A.D?) they also use triune formulas.


This is where Christianity adopted a trinitarian doctrine. The word "trinity" is not in the Bible.

[madhusudan]

The diagram above is interesting in that it defies logic. This concept rests in an understanding beyond everyday thought, which makes perfect sense. My limited understanding of the middle way in Buddhism is similar in that it is ultimately beyond conceptualization.

[Syn7]

When mixing ideologies, it comes down to how strict you are about those ideologies. If you are a fundamentalist on either side and believe that it is the truth, the whole truth and the ONLY truth, then no, they can't mix. If you are willing to compromise, then yes, you can. In my mind it's just that simple.


As far as the trinity being adopted into christianity later, most of christianity is either an adaption or a straight jack on older beliefs. Usually adopted in order to appease specific groups for the purposes of conversion. But some were there from the get go because they were previously held beliefs by the "original" believers. I didn't say that very well, but you know what I mean.

[MarathonTmatt]

When mixing ideologies, it comes down to how strict you are about those ideologies. If you are a fundamentalist on either side and believe that it is the truth, the whole truth and the ONLY truth, then no, they can't mix. If you are willing to compromise, then yes, you can. In my mind it's just that simple.


As far as the trinity being adopted into christianity later, most of christianity is either an adaption or a straight jack on older beliefs. Usually adopted in order to appease specific groups for the purposes of conversion. But some were there from the get go because they were previously held beliefs by the "original" believers. I didn't say that very well, but you know what I mean.

Well said.

[MarathonTmatt]

Question for people who are more read up on the Bible than I am:

Somewhere in the New Testament there is a quote that goes something like this:

Jesus said: "I and My Father are One."

How can this be interpreted? Does it mean that Jesus was a "Man of God", thus close to "His Father", therefore becoming as One, or does it mean that Jesus "was/is God." Also, do these concepts relate to the holy trinity at all?

Thanks in advance.

[Kellen Bassette]

Somewhere in the New Testament there is a quote that goes something like this:

Jesus said: "I and My Father are One."


I believe this is the verse you are referring to.

John 14:9
Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?




How can this be interpreted?

I'm willing to bet a few different ways. :cool:

Doctrine of trinity has three members of the Godhead. The Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.

God is one, in three persons...of sorts.

Doctrine of Oneness believes God is a spirit, (the Father) who entered the Son, (Jesus the man,) like demonic possession, but the Holy, not demonic kind.
The Holy Ghost is the spirit of God. Since God is an omnipresent spirit, he can send His spirit to whom he will.

God is one with three, (or more) manifestations.

I know it sounds like splitting hairs, but to some folks, the two camps are straight Sunni/Shiite. :eek:

[bawang]

emperor constantine basically flipped a coin and decided to suppport trinity over arianism to form a united church. the trinity is a joke.

[MarathonTmatt]

at the time there were multiple people thought to be massiach, such as honi the rainbringer. there were 3 or 4 jesuses, thats why jesus was known as the jesus "from nazareth".

Most excellent tid-bit of information, sir. I wonder if "Honi" is where we get the word "horn y" from.

[bawang]

Most excellent tid-bit of information, sir. I wonder if "Honi" is where we get the word "horn y" from.

jewish historian josephus explains nicely the political atmosphere of the time that led to massiach fever. its free online.

[lkfmdc]

1. There are MANY people with stories similar to Jesus, one is actually JUDAS the Galilean (note the name!)

2. There is no "Nazareth"... Jesus was most likely a Nazarene

3. There is a body of work emerging discussing James (Jesus' brother) and "Jewish Christians" and why they went extinct vs the Pauline Greek pro Roman church

4. After Nicea, a lot of Jewish Christians were told they couldn't be Christians anymore, and became Muslims eventually

[MarathonTmatt]

jewish historian josephus explains nicely the political atmosphere of the time that led to massiach fever. its free online.

Yes, you're right I have heard what you are saying before, I have a pal who used to be a theologian who has his own radio show.

[bawang]

Yes, you're right I have heard what you are saying before, I have a pal who used to be a theologian who has his own radio show.
regardless of whatever religion or cultural or political belief, the most important thing in life is to produce offpring and continue your genes. when you realize that you neither hate or love religion.

whether tcma and chrsitianity can mix is a pointless question because there are almost no real christians. most christians these days fornicate before marriage and support gays. inhaling demonic spirits and moral implications of burning incence to oriental action figures is the least of their worries.


when you dont even know how to pronounce the name of your own god, worrying about compatibility with exotic calisthetics is moot.

[crazedjustice88]

I am a very devout Christian and I love the TCMA. I'm still a virgin, waiting till marriage, don't drink, smoke or cuss. There are differing reasons for each moral though. I am fully aware that I'm in the extreme minority bug it cool. As far as the mixing goes, I'm a full believer that they can. I teach tai chi and will be bai seeing (sp?) in October to my Sifu. YAY!!! But yeah, so there's that.

[MarathonTmatt]

regardless of whatever religion or cultural or political belief, the most important thing in life is to produce offpring and continue your genes. when you realize that you neither hate or love religion.

whether tcma and chrsitianity can mix is a pointless question because there are almost no real christians. most christians these days fornicate before marriage and support gays. inhaling demonic spirits and moral implications of burning incence to oriental action figures is the least of their worries.


when you dont even know how to pronounce the name of your own god, worrying about compatibility with exotic calisthetics is moot.

Totally agree 100% with all of that! A lot of people just stick with whatever faith they grew up with and never question anything. For instance, I do not believe I have to go through a priest for anything "holy." I can just pray for myself and be diligent, knowing I try my best in my own way. No one ever questions "the Church" or the clergy, etc. For instance, if we are not Christian or whatever, and we do not pay taxes to these people, then we are godless heathens and not even human. (less than human.) That was the Inquisition in the Mediterranian/Europe, and the witch trials, and that was the colonial attitude in the America's, Africa's, Asia, Macro-nesia, etc. Now it is like everything is somehow okay and the Pope is just some nice old man, and tourists who flock to the Vatican try to touch him thinking he will heal them like Jesus or something, but then the bodyguards tackle the person(s) to the ground for trying to touch the Pope- okay, sure- if that's "holy" I must be missing something.

Don't get me wrong though, I am not a Bible-basher, in fact I appreciate history and can appreciate the Bible. "neither hate or love religion." Well said.

And I would also add that there are a lot of rabbi's, preachers, and priests who do wonderful things for their communities throughout the world. I am not bashing anyone's religion or faith or the Bible, I just want to make that clear.

[sanjuro_ronin]

It is a human concept. Perpetuated by humans.
A trinity concept isn't that hard to get though. It's a common thread in a lot of religions.

Heaven> Earth> Man for instance.

1>2>3>10,000

Vishnu/Bramha/Siva

Jesus/God/ The Holy Spirit

and so on it goes.

It can't be reconciled because it demands faith. It has nothing at all to do with reason, logic or rationale.

The only difference is the "oneness" of the Trinity doctrine.
Honestly I don't find it that hard to understand myself BUT I never came at it with any preconceived notions of what I thought it meant...

[sanjuro_ronin]

This is where Christianity adopted a trinitarian doctrine. The word "trinity" is not in the Bible.

Not correct at all, you will not find anything like the CORRECT Trinity doctrine anywhere other than Christianity.
You may find views that APPEAR similar, but only on the surface.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Question for people who are more read up on the Bible than I am:

Somewhere in the New Testament there is a quote that goes something like this:

Jesus said: "I and My Father are One."

How can this be interpreted? Does it mean that Jesus was a "Man of God", thus close to "His Father", therefore becoming as One, or does it mean that Jesus "was/is God." Also, do these concepts relate to the holy trinity at all?

Thanks in advance.

I have a masters in Theological studies, so take this for what it is worth:
You can NOT understand a faith from ONE passage NOR can you understand it if you come at it from preconceived notions.

When Jesus said that, WHO did He say it to and WHEN and HOW would THEY have taken it?
Clue: They tried to stone him because He was making himself equal with God.

[sanjuro_ronin]

emperor constantine basically flipped a coin and decided to suppport trinity over arianism to form a united church. the trinity is a joke.

That is SO fare off dude, honestly.
That is probably one of the silliest notions that opponents of Christianity ever came up with.
Constantine simply told the council to "make a decision" on it and according to some sources, He may have preferred the Arian view to be the official view because it would have worked out better for him as Emperor.

[lkfmdc]

Well, not to argue too much, but there is some evidence that the Emperor did prefer some interpretations and put some pressure towards those

[sanjuro_ronin]

There seems to be a lot of "mis-informed mainstream" critique of Christianity here, understandably so since there is such a "vocal" online critique of it so readily available.
I would ask people that IF they truly wanna know the truth, to research from BOTH sides of the argument and NOT just take the side that they prefer to be correct.

Any good Christian apologetic site can answer all these "supposed issues" that really don't amount to anything more than speculation and mis-information".

But, to each their own.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Well, not to argue too much, but there is some evidence that the Emperor did prefer some interpretations and put some pressure towards those

Correct and we will probably find that there is enough "opinion" on the matter to equally weight BOTH sides of the argument.
Suffice to say that his SON was far more "direct", LOL !

[lkfmdc]

It isn't a stretch to imagine that politics played a role. The Roman empire had DECIMATED Israel over religious zealotry. It regulated religious life, required sacrifices to the emperor under pagan times. The emperor wanted a unified empire, he didn't want a bunch of monks constantly arguing over orthodoxy and hearsay. And he didn't have much background and probably did not really completely understand some of the points being argued....

[sanjuro_ronin]

It isn't a stretch to imagine that politics played a role. The Roman empire had DECIMATED Israel over religious zealotry. It regulated religious life, required sacrifices to the emperor under pagan times. The emperor wanted a unified empire, he didn't want a bunch of monks constantly arguing over orthodoxy and hearsay. And he didn't have much background and probably did not really completely understand some of the points being argued....

100% correct, he wanted peace and stability in a religion that he converted to because he thought it would bring peace and stability ( his much publicized vision aside).

His nephew Julian on the other hand, had different ideas.

[Kellen Bassette]

2. There is no "Nazareth"...

This is false and I can prove it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kyXz6eMCj2k&list=PL19A5FC16BE4D51DA

[lkfmdc]

This is false and I can prove it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kyXz6eMCj2k&list=PL19A5FC16BE4D51DA

ah, but

Now you're messin' with a.....

[Pipefighter]

The only difference is the "oneness" of the Trinity doctrine.
Honestly I don't find it that hard to understand myself BUT I never came at it with any preconceived notions of what I thought it meant...

With or without preconceived notions, if you ponder on this concept, it should be obvious that there is an inconceivable mystery to it in the midst of what may sound as easy as one two three. I.e. "for Jesus did not think that equality with God is something that could be grasped". Yet at the same time, "I and the Father are one". Obviously hierarchy is something man uses to abuse other people. Some like to build god images with this hierarchy and duplicate it with words like clergy and laity.

Theological studies, apologetics, hermeneutics, exegesis, and all the other greek bla bla bla can go to hell in a hand basket. What Good are we doing?? If you can manage to abstain or explain away from all sin for your whole life will God say to you, "well done, you didnt screw anything up. Thats just what i have been looking for this whole time. Some body who has never done any wrong. Please, come sit next to me and we can condescend to the rest of all creation."

Why did God call David a man after his own heart even through all he did. Why Moses, why Gideon, why...
Conversely, what about the Pharisees? They were masters of theological persuits, rhetoric, and kept themselves legally pure. According to Jesus, what did God feel about them? Refer to Matthew 23.

Better to concern yourself with doing good to widows and orphans rather than memorize the human cannon of modern christian lingo and end up completely deaf to the voice of God in the same way the Teachers of the law did. That should be a major concern for anyone who delves into the scripture.
2 Corinthians 3:14-15 But their minds were hardened. For to this day, when they read the old covenant, that same veil remains unlifted, because only through Christ is it taken away. Yes, to this day whenever Moses is read a veil lies over their hearts.
:::::::
Regarding the otigional post:
If you take the bible as a whole, it is easy to see a few of the major things that God gets feisty about and has punished people for.
1. When people who he helps turn to other ways, idols, gods or mix them into His way-- this is basically adultery, and a real slap in the face to the one who did so much for you.
2. When people oppress/abuse other people, especially ones who cant do anything about it. (War and battle is a different idea)
3. When people do things that will lead to a destruction of their own community ( this is part of the summary of the law and the prophets) - things like adultery, theft, complete disregard of the wisdom of elders(parents can remove themselves from that place), etc...

Bawang is right about having bigger problems than burning incense to asian action figures. Not having any good to offer the world - any salt if you will-- is a more up front issue. If you have no salt, light, good, what does it matter who you "worship"

[RenDaHai]

Ok, I found this helpful, but I am still a bit confused.

So, is it something like this; St. Augustine says the mind is an image of the trinity, with its ‘Memory, understanding, will’. I suppose this is not precisely the same type of trinity but an analogy to help make this concept comprehendible.

Memory—Understanding—Will

….And hence these three are one, in that they are one life, one mind, one essence; and whatever else they are severally called in respect to themselves, they are called also together, not plurally, but in the singular number. But they are three, in that wherein they are mutually referred to each other; and if they were not equal, and this not only each to each, but also each to all, they certainly could not mutually contain each other; for not only is each contained by each, but also all by each. For I remember that I have memory and understanding, and will; and I understand that I understand, and will, and remember; and I will that I will, and remember, and understand; and I remember together my whole memory, and understanding, and will. For that of my memory which I do not remember, is not in my memory; and nothing is so much in the memory as memory itself. Therefore I remember the whole memory. Also, whatever I understand I know that I understand, and I know that I will whatever I will; but whatever I know I remember. Therefore I remember the whole of my understanding, and the whole of my will. Likewise, when I understand these three things, I understand them together as whole. For there is none of things intelligible which I do not understand, except what I do not know; but what I do not know, I neither remember, nor will. Therefore, whatever of things intelligible I do not understand, it follows also that I neither remember nor will. And whatever of things intelligible I remember and will, it follows that I understand. My will also embraces my whole understanding and my whole memory while I use the whole that I understand and remember. And, therefore, while all are mutually comprehended by each, and as wholes, each as a whole is equal to each as a whole, and each as a whole at the same time to all as wholes; and these three are one, one life, one mind, one essence. --- St. Augustine De Trinitate (c.400 A.D)

And so in this way I can kind of begin to think about how Father---Son---Spirit are simultaneously one and yet distinct. Since all of us can think about memory-will-understanding separately and yet they can only really act together.

Is this a reasonable way to think about the trinity?

[lkfmdc]

I have a masters in Theological studies



oh! I just noticed this! No wonder you have such great info on this :D

[Kellen Bassette]

Theological studies, apologetics, hermeneutics, exegesis, and all the other greek bla bla bla can go to hell in a hand basket. What Good are we doing??

You and I could probably get along...

[Jimbo]

If you have no salt, light, good, what does it matter who you "worship"

My thoughts exactly.

[bawang]

normal people dont force their religion on their students. i have never seen kung fu teacher force religion on their students, except chinatown bitter old cantonese doods with no wife.

[Kellen Bassette]

The fact that there is Buddhist, Taoist, Muslim Gong Fu, shows you that the religion isn't a necessary component, it's a cultural afterthought.
Original Gong Fu was probably Shamanistic and the other Asian MAs that stem from TCMA have adopted their own local beliefs into their systems.

It is a common human attribute to try to tie your faith into your war making. People have always felt the need for divine justification of their killing.

[sanjuro_ronin]

oh! I just noticed this! No wonder you have such great info on this :D

It was something I did "just for fun", how sad was that? LOL !

On a serious note, when my Mother, Father and older sister converted to being JW's they tried to get me to be one too, which sent me on a mission to truly study the bible and religion, especially the history Christianity of course.
It naturally progressed to actual academic study.

It was really fascinating and I learned a lot ( as you can imagine) and realized that the true flavour of Christianity IS it's distinctiveness and how NATURAL that is in a religion that is about CHOICE and PERSONAL relation/revelation with God.

[Lucas]

I practice astrophysics gongfu.

[wenshu]

http://www.pc-freak.net/images/orthodox_symbols/byzantine_cross_lg.jpg

Be thou a leader and a companion in battle to those who strive for the Orthodox Faith, so that all who fight against us may know that God and His holy Angels are with us.

Mezhyhira Transfiguration Monastery (http://www.encyclopediaofukraine.com/display.asp?linkpath=pages\M\E\MezhyhiriaTransfigu rationMonastery.htm)

http://www.encyclopediaofukraine.com/pic%5CM%5CE%5CMezhyhiria%20Transfiguration%20Monas tery%20(painting).jpg

[Lucas]

9038

This is my teacher

[David Jamieson]

The fact that there is Buddhist, Taoist, Muslim Gong Fu, shows you that the religion isn't a necessary component, it's a cultural afterthought.
Original Gong Fu was probably Shamanistic and the other Asian MAs that stem from TCMA have adopted their own local beliefs into their systems.

It is a common human attribute to try to tie your faith into your war making. People have always felt the need for divine justification of their killing.

The religion justifies the violence. So yes, it is in addition to and not the source of.

Kung fu or making one self strong and able to make violence has less to do with shamanism and more to do with tribal survival and individual survival and it grew from there up through various ways to get skills and keep them to full armies to ritualized training coming in from religious practice or in the seeking of spiritual liberation.

Back in the ancient days, it was about the same thing it's about today. To make violence and to withstand violence. In order to reconcile ourselves with the meaning and purpose of violence we have a tendency to dress it up with honour and righteousness etc. Martial arts are another form of dressing up violence.

It helps us reconcile what is otherwise an ugly necessity of being alive on planet earth.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I agree that spirituality/religion was an after thought in MA.
It seems that perhaps someone figured out that teaching and developing the ability to kill WITHOUT a strong moral sense of WHY one should NOT do it, can lead some people into serious problems and society pays the price ( as we see everyday).
Giving anyone the ability to kill ( be it with bare hands or a weapon) and NOT at least TRYING to instill the very valid reasons NOT to is, IMO, just plain wrong.
I think when a teacher has a strong sense of "right and wrong" that he/she understands the value of VALUES and even more so in regards to a person learning how to kill.

[David Jamieson]

I agree that spirituality/religion was an after thought in MA.
It seems that perhaps someone figured out that teaching and developing the ability to kill WITHOUT a strong moral sense of WHY one should NOT do it, can lead some people into serious problems and society pays the price ( as we see everyday).
Giving anyone the ability to kill ( be it with bare hands or a weapon) and NOT at least TRYING to instill the very valid reasons NOT to is, IMO, just plain wrong.
I think when a teacher has a strong sense of "right and wrong" that he/she understands the value of VALUES and even more so in regards to a person learning how to kill.

Yes, we can have order or we can have chaos.

Order is what gives us constructs such as morality and ethics. Chaos is the natural ebb and flow of things.
I am not certain one is better or worse in a big picture sense, but I do feel that order gives me a personal sense of meaning and purpose and direction.
Order isn't found without establishing a moral and ethical framework within it.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Yes, we can have order or we can have chaos.

Order is what gives us constructs such as morality and ethics. Chaos is the natural ebb and flow of things.
I am not certain one is better or worse in a big picture sense, but I do feel that order gives me a personal sense of meaning and purpose and direction.
Order isn't found without establishing a moral and ethical framework within it.

Indeed and I think we are getting some very visual examples as of late of what happens when fighting skill is taught without some sort of "moral base" to it.
And it's not just about guys fighting because they like to fight, it is about people viewing fighting as an acceptable answer to their problems and killing as a viable option.
Add to that the mentality of "ends justifies the means" and we have a recipe for disaster.

[David Jamieson]

Indeed and I think we are getting some very visual examples as of late of what happens when fighting skill is taught without some sort of "moral base" to it.
And it's not just about guys fighting because they like to fight, it is about people viewing fighting as an acceptable answer to their problems and killing as a viable option.
Add to that the mentality of "ends justifies the means" and we have a recipe for disaster.

yeah, there are a lot of commentaries about blindly killing off vast numbers of people.
Particularly in conversations around the Middle East situation(s)

Very strange to see commentaries from soccer moms and armchair quarterbacks on the local news about how we should just "wipe out" all of Syria or Gaza or what have you with no consideration of the millions of lives that are being spoken of.

I find that somewhat perplexing and all too common these days.

What's worse is that I don't think people actually understand anything until they've had direct visceral experience with it whatever it is.

People can talk hockey all day long, but until they play, they are just gas bagging.
Same goes for anything really.

An opinion is one thing, an informed commentary is another entirely.

[sanjuro_ronin]

yeah, there are a lot of commentaries about blindly killing off vast numbers of people.
Particularly in conversations around the Middle East situation(s)

Very strange to see commentaries from soccer moms and armchair quarterbacks on the local news about how we should just "wipe out" all of Syria or Gaza or what have you with no consideration of the millions of lives that are being spoken of.

I find that somewhat perplexing and all too common these days.

What's worse is that I don't think people actually understand anything until they've had direct visceral experience with it whatever it is.

People can talk hockey all day long, but until they play, they are just gas bagging.
Same goes for anything really.

An opinion is one thing, an informed commentary is another entirely.

It seems that far too many people have a very cavalier attitude towards killing.
Of course those very people are probably the most surprised when other have that same attitude towards them...

[Jimbo]

Ethical behavior should be modeled well before MA comes into the picture, IMO. Nowadays, the number of young people who seem unable to deal with conflict in a mature manner seems at an all-time high. Or maybe it's just reported more. Maybe it's a lack of good parental guidance in many cases. But nowadays, the old advice about "stand up to the bully and teach him a lesson and he will leave you alone" seems antiquated. Now, if someone finds he can't handle you face-to-face, he will just go get a gun. The exact same, and probably even more, with those who are allegedly bullied. There is too much seeking a quick fix (guns) and media attention, and not enough resolve to make oneself stronger mentally, emotionally, and physically. And the physical aspect is really the least of the three. Without the first two aspects, the physical means little, regardless how much it may be developed through MA or any other outlet.

As far as cavalier attitudes towards killing, that has always been the case when it comes to "the others". It's easy for people to lump whole groups of people together, especially in countries that most Americans probably couldn't even locate on a world map without the internet. To suggest simply blasting every person in a region into nothingness in the casual manner that many do, is callous and stupid. Such attitudes are nothing new. And there are those in every country who share that, just as there are those everywhere who are more evolved and do not believe that way. And you never know; by suggesting everyone of certain groups be eliminated, you may just be condemning a best friend or friends you never had the chance to meet.

[Kellen Bassette]

yeah, there are a lot of commentaries about blindly killing off vast numbers of people.
Particularly in conversations around the Middle East situation(s)

Very strange to see commentaries from soccer moms and armchair quarterbacks on the local news about how we should just "wipe out" all of Syria or Gaza or what have you with no consideration of the millions of lives that are being spoken of.

I find that somewhat perplexing and all too common these days.

What's worse is that I don't think people actually understand anything until they've had direct visceral experience with it whatever it is.

People can talk hockey all day long, but until they play, they are just gas bagging.
Same goes for anything really.

An opinion is one thing, an informed commentary is another entirely.

Ignorant people have always been in the majority and are rarely shy about giving their opinions.