Choking out children

[GeneChing]

This news has raised some controversy on the web, so let's discuss it here. What do y'all think? Is this okay?


Martial arts experts and doctors condemn instructor's 'sleeper' hold demonstration (http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/martial-arts-experts-and-doctors-condemn-instructors-sleeper-hold-demonstration/story-fni0cx4q-1226779140835)
TAYLOR AUERBACH THE DAILY TELEGRAPH DECEMBER 09, 2013 6:27PM

MARTIAL ARTS INSTRUCTOR CHOKES OUT TEENAGE GIRL 0:25
Play video

http://resources3.news.com.au/images/2013/12/09/1226779/140779-336c2118-60a0-11e3-8bef-f68fbd62ade2.jpg
A martial arts instructor is under fire after putting a sleeper hold on a teenage girl and knocking her out. Courtesy Seven News.

MARTIAL arts experts and medical professors have slammed the actions of a taekwondo instructor who was filmed "choking" one of his students to sleep in a demonstration on the state's north coast.

Video of the incident was obtained by Channel 7 and appears to show sensai Michael Landas putting a sleeper hold on 16-year-old yellow-belt Crystal Trost.

In the clip, Crystal is told to raise her arm in the air - which then drops to her lap when Mr Landas places his bicep around the girl's neck and applies pressure.

After the incident Crystal says: "I just had the weirdest dream ever".

Mr Landas can also be heard telling the class Crystal is about to go "unconscious" before he performs the move.

"It's crazy," said Australian Martial Arts Academy head instructor Sarah Perkins.

"It's unheard of … You're teaching kids to be doing something potentially harmful and you're switching off someone's mind for a period of time.

http://resources2.news.com.au/images/2013/12/09/1226779/139406-1d2047e0-60a0-11e3-8bef-f68fbd62ade2.jpg
The parents of Crystal demonstrate how Michael Landas choked her but are not concerned about it. Source: Supplied

"Having a child choked out brings martial arts against everything it should be known for … I wouldn't have my child in a school where they were choked out."

Ms Perkins said her instructors adopted a philosophy of as little contact as possible and said the act depicted in the grainy video borders on child abuse.

"I'm sure parents have gotten in trouble for smacking kids and this is a lot more dangerous," she said.

Michael Landas could not be reached for comment.

The girl's mother Michelle Trost is believed to have filmed the sleeper hold and told Channel 7 she wasn't worried for her daughter's health.

"No, it wasn't disturbing because I knew what was going to happen," she said.

The video has also sparked outcry from health experts, with prominent Sydney surgeon and Daily Telegraph columnist Dr Gordian Fulde comparing the act to a "hanging".

[David Jamieson]

Being a martial arts instructor does not imbue wisdom on anyone.

What's being done here is utterly stupid. the hold does not require the complete follow through for a learner to understand the hold or to get how much pressure to put etc.

Having said that, there are a lot of poorly educated, medically ignorant MA people out there.
To that end, seriously look at who you take as a teacher.

[Dragonzbane76]

wtf is wrong with people. I don't understand some people's mind sets. It doesn't take a genius to understand that a RNC will put someone out. It doesn't take someone getting one put on themselves to understand how to perform one.

[Minghequan]

This is not the way forward and sadly tars us all with the same brush!

But the interesting thing I find here is the lack of posts in response!!!

Something like this which is reprehensible, wrong and highly damaging to the Martial Arts gets only a handful of responses yet those plying their own martial politics and personalized agendas post away without limit.

What a sad thing the Martial Arts have become.

[Jimbo]

But the interesting thing I find here is the lack of posts in response!!!

Something like this which is reprehensible, wrong and highly damaging to the Martial Arts gets only a handful of responses yet those plying their own martial politics and personalized agendas post away without limit.

Agreed, but...to be fair, what else is there to add that hasn't already been said?

IMO, the guy is not only a doofus, but he's taking stupid risks with their lives. How will he know that someone doesn't have a pre-existing condition in which being choked out can have lethal consequences?

There are many MA instructors out there who think that, because they may know something about MA, that they are then experts on everything.

[SPJ]

choke out

tap out

knock out

thrown down

take down

what ever we determine the "end" point of play fight with rules,

serious harm or injury is to be avoided or guarded against.

this applies to both children and adult classes in any gym

is it not ?

:eek:

[Syn7]

The only time you should put anyone asleep in training is if they refuse to tap. Usually this only has to happen once or twice before they become smart and secure enough to tap. If they don't catch on, don't roll with them. Unless you dislike em and want to put them to sleep, that is. But as far as children are concerned, of course we shouldn't put kids down like that, tap or no tap. For the same reason you don't slam a kid on their head for beakin off the way you would another adult.

[Lucas]

Choke out all the little bastids.

16 years old is old enough, that is not a little kid.

I mean if you are a glorified day care, no. But if you are training people properly, then i dont see the problem. If they have a medical condition that should be disclosed before training.

An instructor should be clear and fully disclose what types of training will take place so that parents and students know what they are getting into.

Are we talking about training fighting arts or not?

Guess what? Kids in school fights DO go for choke holds. Wouldnt you rather your stydents understand first hand on how to do this properly before they go all 'UFC' in a school fight?

Kids will always imitate what they see. Every kid watches mma choke holds and they will and do try this with absolutely zero knowledge on the subject.

Imo its stupid not to prepare kids for the reality of what can very likely happen in a schoolyard fight.

Oh i forgot, martial arts are for pansies now and are not about being properly prepared.

I choked and got choked as a kid and learned.

As long as there is full disclosure from both parties involved, and proper knowledgable instruction then its fine.

The problem is that the vast majority of people receiving martial arts instruction shouldnt be there.

Flame on b1tches

[Kellen Bassette]

Choke out all the little bastids.


Definitely apply the choke, but why do you need to choke them unconscious? If someone is tapping as their eyes start to go dark, they probably realize it is working...

[Lucas]

im guilty of not watching that vid, and also of speaking in generalities. Where im coming from it went like this:

Teacher: today you're going to sleep lucas, ok?

Me: ok.

And that was that. Now i know im not even remotely alone with that experience. People are just too paddy cake in todays world. Look at nearly every martial legend, almost all of them started as kids, and willingly and unwillingly endured more than a friendly sleeper to achieve their goals.

Also, im a d!ck.

If you cant trust your teacher then you should find one that will cater to the needs to change diapers and breast feed the kids

:D merry freakin christmas! Did u miss me?

[Jimbo]

Choke out all the little bastids.

16 years old is old enough, that is not a little kid.

I mean if you are a glorified day care, no. But if you are training people properly, then i dont see the problem. If they have a medical condition that should be disclosed before training.

An instructor should be clear and fully disclose what types of training will take place so that parents and students know what they are getting into.

Are we talking about training fighting arts or not?

Guess what? Kids in school fights DO go for choke holds. Wouldnt you rather your stydents understand first hand on how to do this properly before they go all 'UFC' in a school fight?

Kids will always imitate what they see. Every kid watches mma choke holds and they will and do try this with absolutely zero knowledge on the subject.

Imo its stupid not to prepare kids for the reality of what can very likely happen in a schoolyard fight.

Oh i forgot, martial arts are for pansies now and are not about being properly prepared.

I choked and got choked as a kid and learned.

As long as there is full disclosure from both parties involved, and proper knowledgable instruction then its fine.

The problem is that the vast majority of people receiving martial arts instruction shouldnt be there.

Flame on b1tches

I trained almost exclusively with adults as a kid (from a younger age than the girl in the vid), and took a LOT of lumps. My personal experience in the '70s was that back then, people were not so protective of children as they are now. The men would spar me about as hard as they would each other. At times I secretly thought about quitting but I didn't, because I thought that's just how MA training is supposed to be. And IMO, traditionally, it is. In time, it toughened me up and, looking back, I'm glad I went through that and wouldn't trade it for the world. But maybe I was lucky that none of the bumps and injuries I had as a result of that period were lasting, AFAIK. So I'm not sure I'd recommend quite the same for a young kid today.

As far as choking out, I agree with Syn7 that it should only happen if they refuse to tap. I realize any medical condition should be disclosed beforehand, but not everybody would be aware of that. How many adults, much less kids, actually get a full medical checkup before taking up training in a MA? Maybe it should be required, but I'm sure a lot of people would go elsewhere if it was a mandatory prerequisite.

[Miqi]

Choke out all the little bastids.

16 years old is old enough, that is not a little kid.

I mean if you are a glorified day care, no. But if you are training people properly, then i dont see the problem. If they have a medical condition that should be disclosed before training.

An instructor should be clear and fully disclose what types of training will take place so that parents and students know what they are getting into.

Are we talking about training fighting arts or not?

Guess what? Kids in school fights DO go for choke holds. Wouldnt you rather your stydents understand first hand on how to do this properly before they go all 'UFC' in a school fight?

Kids will always imitate what they see. Every kid watches mma choke holds and they will and do try this with absolutely zero knowledge on the subject.

Imo its stupid not to prepare kids for the reality of what can very likely happen in a schoolyard fight.

Oh i forgot, martial arts are for pansies now and are not about being properly prepared.

I choked and got choked as a kid and learned.

As long as there is full disclosure from both parties involved, and proper knowledgable instruction then its fine.

The problem is that the vast majority of people receiving martial arts instruction shouldnt be there.

Flame on b1tches

Hmm... at the risk of you, my hero, thinking I'm a b!tch, I'd say that the reverse is true - that most people teaching martial arts shouldn't be there. Including you. Oh hold on, you're not my hero.

[Lucas]

Good, i shouldnt be anybodies hero. And i dont want to teach martial arts, training is all i want, i practice for selfish reasons. The only person that can decide if you're a b!tch is you. When the going gets tough, one either b!thes out or they dont. well unless you're small and in prison, with a pretty moith, then you might not get a choice.

[SteveLau]

SPJ said it well. We should not do it to other students, whether they are adult or children. And we should refuse to be applied with this dangerous move, even the person is trust worthy. IMHO, there is no person who can be trusted 100% to do such dangerous thing.


KC
Hong Kong

[-N-]

Any volunteers?


http://youtu.be/4YUkSudJ9ac

:)

[Lucas]

From Gina Carano? I will pay to have her choke me out! :eek:

[Dragonzbane76]

do I get an autograph with that as well?

[Drake]

You are cutting off the flow of blood to the brain until a state of unconsciousness is reached. That can be very, very damaging, and not worth whatever training effect might be gathered. I saw a guy refuse to tap out once, and a few minutes later he was being taken away in an ambulance. Not worth it. All you need to do is cut off the blood flow for a brief moment, and the panic and sense of impending loss of consciousness is usually enough to drive the point home.

[Lee Chiang Po]

Martial arts are taught for only one good reason. If you can't take it, don't do it. I never felt that kids should be taught any different than adults as they have to be responsible for their actions too. There is a big difference between the RNC and the sleeper. Most people do the choke like they teach in jiujitsu, but the best method is to clench the hands directly in front of the throat and using a thumb into the throat you pull them in tight and sling your victim like a dog slinging a rat. A proper sleeper only cuts off the blood flow until the victim goes to sleep. I started at 10 years of age and by 11 I could choke the snot out of the other kids.
If you are going to teach kids, then teach them. don't let them grow up with some false sense of confidence. We are only talking about just one move out of many that can cause them injury.

[David Jamieson]

Martial arts are taught for only one good reason. If you can't take it, don't do it. I never felt that kids should be taught any different than adults as they have to be responsible for their actions too. There is a big difference between the RNC and the sleeper. Most people do the choke like they teach in jiujitsu, but the best method is to clench the hands directly in front of the throat and using a thumb into the throat you pull them in tight and sling your victim like a dog slinging a rat. A proper sleeper only cuts off the blood flow until the victim goes to sleep. I started at 10 years of age and by 11 I could choke the snot out of the other kids.
If you are going to teach kids, then teach them. don't let them grow up with some false sense of confidence. We are only talking about just one move out of many that can cause them injury.

Nobody's saying don't teach it. We're talking about going to full cycle and actually knocking a child out by cutting off blood supply to the brain. This in and of itself is dangerous, reckless and quite frankly a stupid thing to do.

[SPJ]

Kids class

only play fight with rules and safety.

Nothing serious.

Actually, many adult classes are for wannabe, too.

Unless, of course you are training for pro ring fights or job requirements.

:eek:

[SPJ]

Any volunteers?


http://youtu.be/4YUkSudJ9ac

:)

Her smile is "deadly" (dearly) enough.

She had me at smile.

No need to choke physically.

I am choked with drooling already.

:p

[-N-]

Her smile is "deadly" (dearly) enough.

She had me at smile.

No need to choke physically.

I am choked with drooling already.

:p

If you liked that one...

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-6uqqtlxJ9sw/UB007EhYUyI/AAAAAAAACEM/AklTdmSs1v0/s1600/gina-carano.gif

[mooyingmantis]

Martial arts are taught for only one good reason. If you can't take it, don't do it. I never felt that kids should be taught any different than adults as they have to be responsible for their actions too. There is a big difference between the RNC and the sleeper. Most people do the choke like they teach in jiujitsu, but the best method is to clench the hands directly in front of the throat and using a thumb into the throat you pull them in tight and sling your victim like a dog slinging a rat. A proper sleeper only cuts off the blood flow until the victim goes to sleep. I started at 10 years of age and by 11 I could choke the snot out of the other kids.
If you are going to teach kids, then teach them. don't let them grow up with some false sense of confidence. We are only talking about just one move out of many that can cause them injury.

Agreed!

If you teach martial arts, then teach the whole shabang. Don't teach some watered down, candy a$$ version of martial arts. Leave that to the fakes.

I don't teach children. My school is only open to teenagers and adults. I don't believe children should be trusted with the responsibility that comes with learning TCMA.

I learned hadaka-jime (rear naked choke/figure four choke) as a teenager and have used it many times in fights. It was usually enough to only apply the hold until the opponent realized he was screwed. It took the fight right out of them.

TCMA is equally dangerous for teens and adults. Any person of any age can die from a choke hold gone wrong, even if properly applied. It is the risk one takes. So, the teacher and the individual student has to decide if they feel it is worth the risk.

[-N-]

I don't teach children. My school is only open to teenagers and adults. I don't believe children should be trusted with the responsibility that comes with learning TCMA.

There's a benefit for learning at an early age.


http://youtu.be/cgFFivfkfgE

TCMA is highly selective about who is accepted(and allowed to continue) as a student, whether child or adult.

[Miqi]

Agreed!


TCMA is equally dangerous for teens and adults. Any person of any age can die from a choke hold gone wrong, even if properly applied. It is the risk one takes. So, the teacher and the individual student has to decide if they feel it is worth the risk.


Actually, you have no moral right whatsover to decide that it's ok to endanger someone's life, child or adult. Justifying it by saying that they shouldn't be there if they can't take it is just an obnoxious justification for bullying or very poor coaching practice.

[Syn7]

Well... there's a line there. I'm not sure where it is though. You can find danger in anything. As human beings we take risk for gains, and that's just how it is. Is it immoral to teach kids how to do air flairs? Cause there is a high level of danger there if done recklessly and if done properly, you bring that down to light to moderate. How about gymnastics? These little kids are being encouraged to do crazy **** and yes, some die. I have had far more injuries from dancing and gymnastics than from MA's. Should we not teach those to kids? Do we leave the decision to the parents? What if the parents are morons? This, like any other issue worthy of debating, is a tough balance.

[Miqi]

Well... there's a line there. I'm not sure where it is though. You can find danger in anything. As human beings we take risk for gains, and that's just how it is. Is it immoral to teach kids how to do air flairs? Cause there is a high level of danger there if done recklessly and if done properly, you bring that down to light to moderate. How about gymnastics? These little kids are being encouraged to do crazy **** and yes, some die. I have had far more injuries from dancing and gymnastics than from MA's. Should we not teach those to kids? Do we leave the decision to the parents? What if the parents are morons? This, like any other issue worthy of debating, is a tough balance.

Well that's true, but in the case of gymnastics, although abuse can and does sometimes occur, we're not talking about peope justifying carrying out acts of simulated, or real, violence under the pretence of being 'instructors' in some kind of so-called martial art. Skateboarding and gymnastics are dangerous, but they don't provide an opportunity for some charlatan to play out their fantasy of being martial arts expert by attacking other people in a quasi-cut environment. But yes, your point is taken and accepted.

[Syn7]

Well that's true, but in the case of gymnastics, although abuse can and does sometimes occur, we're not talking about peope justifying carrying out acts of simulated, or real, violence under the pretence of being 'instructors' in some kind of so-called martial art. Skateboarding and gymnastics are dangerous, but they don't provide an opportunity for some charlatan to play out their fantasy of being martial arts expert by attacking other people in a quasi-cut environment. But yes, your point is taken and accepted.

Fair enough. I was talking more about the inherent dangers of physical activity and the morality behind where that line should be. I would put the gymnastics instructor who abuses the kids(I don't mean sexually, that's another matter) in the same category as the sadistic MA instructor.

It is an interesting debate when you get into how far one should take training with people of any age, let alone kids. We don't want them to be pussies, but we don't wanna abuse them either. The problem is, to not be a *****, you have to take a certain amount of abuse. And of course you have to factor in a ton of things like predisposition and all that. But generally, I think you know what I mean. Again, it's a tough balance and we will never have a full consensus on something like this.

So in a way I'm kind of defending anyone who thinks "they shouldn't be there if they can't take it". So... I wouldn't go that far, I think it's totally valid to want your kid to punch air and prance around in jammies when learning to fight is not the goal. But for those who are tougher and have the ability to take more pain and work harder in that way, it's kind of unfair to make them wait till they are an adult. Of course we have to factor in real health concerns and we shouldn't have 7 year old beating the hell out of eachother, but some will be able to start earlier than others and some will never get there at all. It's just not so black and white.

I think that in all sports the concerns are more legal than moral. Nobody wants to get sued when some freak accident happens or when some kids being put through the ringer inevitably gets hurt. In any physical activity I ever did getting hurt was just a fact of life for me. I did my best to minimize the risk and mitigate the damages, but I was always aware that if I wanted to push my boundaries and come anywhere near my potential, I had to take risks.

[Kellen Bassette]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QpxVQ-S_XIM

[Syn7]

I wonder how many of these kids are fighting because their family needs the income? Adds a whole new dynamic to the morality thing huh.

To me, that's too young. This come back to the tough balance though. A kid who starts that early has a higher chance of "making it", but they also have a higher chance of doing permanent damage. So if you wait till you are more formed, that can be a disadvantage. Like any other sport, you have to decide for yourself how far to take your training, balancing out the benefits with the risks. The problem with kids is the consent issue. We leave that to the parents, but unfortunately some parents are complete idiots, which is why the state steps in and draws that line for all of us. So that state drawn line is a potential benefit to those with idiot parents and it's a potential disadvantage to those parents who know better and have a child who may be physically able to start a lil earlier than that line.

[mooyingmantis]

Actually, you have no moral right whatsover to decide that it's ok to endanger someone's life, child or adult. Justifying it by saying that they shouldn't be there if they can't take it is just an obnoxious justification for bullying or very poor coaching practice.

Since I didn't say either of the above, I don't see why you put my statement in quotes. Can you read?

It is the instructors decision whether he wants to teach anyone potentially dangerous techniques. As I stated, I choose not to teach children PERIOD. And if one of my students doesn't desire to learn a certain area of the curriculum that I teach, they will not be required to do so. Nor would they be penalized for their decision.

As for the second sentence, I have no idea how you related that to what I wrote.

[Miqi]

I wonder how many of these kids are fighting because their family needs the income? Adds a whole new dynamic to the morality thing huh.

.

Very similar situation with 'ladyboys', which is often viewed as a 'gay' issue, rather than what it often is - part of a continuum of child abuse and child sexual exploitation, with many 'ladyboys' beginning as prostitutes, as children, for financial reasons, and not necessarily by their own choice.

[Miqi]

Since I didn't say either of the above, I don't see why you put my statement in quotes. Can you read?

It is the instructors decision whether he wants to teach anyone potentially dangerous techniques. As I stated, I choose not to teach children PERIOD. And if one of my students doesn't desire to learn a certain area of the curriculum that I teach, they will not be required to do so. Nor would they be penalized for their decision.

As for the second sentence, I have no idea how you related that to what I wrote.

Well, it's all about how we interpret what other have said.

[Miqi]

Here's a classic example of what I was talking about. 'Yiquan' instructor Paul Rogers has very recently posted this video in which he - so the video title says - breaks someone's ribs by pushing them off balance on a concrete floor. Personally, I'd be mortified to have injured a student like this. Although accidents do happen, he's bragging about it for commercial and egotistic gain, even posting it on Rum Soaked Fist. I think that is quite despicable.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fs5fXHFKZ_A