Ninjutsu

[Mr T]

Can anyone give me some info on the MA, or recomend a website?....NIT ashida kim! :D

[Budokan]

e-budo.com has forums devoted to this, but they've been down recently...

K. Mark Hoover

[IronFist]

Read "Ninjutsu: History and Tradition" by Masaaki Hatsumi.

Iron

[Kung Lek]

the martial art favoured by the ninja that still exists today is called ninpo.

ninjutsu in itself is a conglamoration of different things ranging from a variety of martial arts to ways of deception and stealth and obscure methods of assasination.

the ninja basically disappeared with the samurai class (excuse the pun). And the whole idea was revived for the sake of the almighty dollar.

most of what's aroung today is borrowed form other arts and given new names. Heck, I've even seen "Ninja Iron Body" as a book. I don't even think they bothered to change the name from Nei Gong in that book. yeesh, do they have no shame? hahahahahaha.

peace

Kung Lek

Martial Arts Links (http://members.home.net/kunglek)

[IronFist]

The "Ninja" name was cashed in on in the 80's. Everyone on every block was adding "ninja" to the title of their MA school to attract customers. Why? Because ninjas were cool!

This lead to a whole slew of fakes and frauds. Can you say Ashida Kim? What about Frank Dux? Ronald Duncan? These guys make money off people who don't know any better.

Iron

[I Hate Ashida Kim]

I assume this is on topic enough for me to not get flamed.

I think I may have explain this here before once, but I'll say it again in case I'm thinking of another forum.

Ashida Kim, Ronald Duncan, and others all claim to be "Koga." Read on:

In the 60's, the last remaining Koga grand master, Fujita, died in a car accident with his top 2 or 3 students. He did not leave an heir, he did not really train anyone else. For the most part, Koga ryu ninjutsu died on that day.

Apparently, people like Ashida Kim heard of this and decided to claim Koga lineage for themselves. After all, who could challenge them if there were no Koga?

Now, Ashida will tell you that he is Koga, but he won't give you the name of his teacher. Well, actually he'll say "Shendai" who is some code name for his teacher because hs real name is a secret, and also he'll say Counte Dante, who used to advertise on the back of comic books in the 70's. Now, chances are "Shendai" does not exist, and Counte Dante was definately NOT a ninja.

Ashida has also said to me, on one occasion (on his message board, but the message has subsequently been erased. I may have a saved copy of it somewhere), that (this is paraphrased), "if one person learns one technique in an art, he is able to say that he teaches that art."

That's crap if I ever heard it. That means if I learn a Taekwondo kick, I am fully able to legitimately say that "I teach Taekwondo." This quote is indicitave of Ashida's intelligence.

Additionally, Ashida cannot "prove" his Koga lineage in any way. He will not divulge the names of any documented Koga teachers he has studied with (because they are all "secret). I beleve he claims to have scrolls of Koga, but he won't show them to any one.

Take Hatsumi, on the other hand. He has Togakure scrolls. Japan's government recognizes him as a legit ninjutsu grandmaster. Which one sounds more legit to you?

Perhaps Ashida's most fatal mistake was in the chosing of his pen name. As you may know, Ashida is a Japanese name and Kim is a Korean last name. Ashida Kim is caucasion, no less. When asked about this, he says "there are many males named Kim." That doesn't even answer the question! So, in Christopher Hunter (that's his real name)'s haste to choose an Asian sounding alias (and therefore sell more books by appearing more legit), he messed up.

To top it all off, all of the so called "koga" masters seem to back each other up. Ashida says Dux is legit, who says Ronald Duncan is legit, who says Tew is legit, who says Hoshino is legit, and the list goes on. One can only assume it is to protect the veil of fraud. After all, if Ashida were to say "Ronald Duncan the Koga ninjutsu guy is a fraud! There is no Koga!" that wouldn't make him look very good either, as he claims to teach Koga as well.

So in conclusion, books by Hatsumi and Hayes (one of his students) are good.

IHAK

"If Ashida wished you to know his real name, I am sure he would write to you and tell you himself." --Danny Sainty

"So, you supposed martial artists, what are you trining for? Who are you training to fight? Apparently no one. Because even in a hypothetical situation, you puss out, Ha! Ha!" --Ashida Kim

[Budokan]

You can pile on Ashida all you want, but ya better lay off Count Dante! He was just too cool for words. I mean, anybody who appeared in the classified ads of a comic book has to have something going for him, right? ;)

K. Mark Hoover

[Mr T]

So what do u guys think about the art itself? i mean is it legit or are there just to many frauds and would it help me in real life situations or would i be wasting my time training in it?

[Budokan]

Personally, I think there is an extremely high noise-to-signal ratio when it comes to this art; you're going to have to look long and hard to find someone legitimate to teach it, IMO. But if you succeed it should be fun.

K. Mark Hoover

[zen_celt]

http://shell.world-net.co.nz/~jimgould/


You can also check out books by Hatsumi, and Hayes, There are a few other sites out there as well. I have heard that there are still some Ninjutsu schools that have not come forward to reveal themselves, the Katori Shinto Ryu, for example, has only recently come forward(I got that From D. Craig's Jiu-Jitsu book). But Hatsumi is a good place to start. Just remember to be very discriminating about anyone and anything claiming to be ninja since it is commonly used to make a person's school seem better/ get more money.
Good luck.
-Z

"The thorn *****s only those who would harm the rose."

[IronFist]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by zen_celt:
I have heard that there are still some Ninjutsu schools that have not come forward to reveal themselves, the Katori Shinto Ryu, for example, has only recently come forward
[/quote]

Be EXTREMELY careful of schools claiming to be "just coming foreward" now. Ashida Kim "just came forward" in the early 80's.

Good luck though, ninjutsu is cool.

Iron

"Now why the **** would you censor "d.ork?"

Ironman PostLog: 1100 - 11/20/01

[Rolling Elbow]

That ninjutsu no longer exists?

Kung Lek....ninjutsu doesn't really exist? then what do I study? authentic Bujinkan Taijutsu.., headed by Hatsumi and very much true to the essence of the nine schools that comprise it.I'm no assassin, but I certainly learn all ranges of unarmed combat and weaponry.

There are ninjutsu components to some traditional samurai jujutsu schools yes, but none taught as an entire system. The Bujinkan remains the ultimate source of information on the subject.

Read Hatsumi's books, don't really bother with Hayes.

P.S- It is very legitimate..provided you have the right instructor.

Michael Panzerotti
Taijutsu Nobody from the Great White North..

[Kung Lek]

hey there rolling elbow, did you actually read what I posted or are you going off emotionally?

peace

Kung Lek

Martial Arts Links (http://members.home.net/kunglek)

[Radhnoti]

Kung Lek said: "the ninja basically disappeared with the samurai class (excuse the pun). And the whole idea was revived for the sake of the almighty dollar."

I have no idea how he could have misinterpreted your perfectly innocent statement, Kung Lek.

:rolleyes: :D

Ok, ok, that might have been out of context...but I'm betting that was the part he took exception with.

[zen_celt]

You're right, people need to be extremely discriminating when it comes to researching ninjutsu. The reason I used the Katori Shinto Ryu in my post was to highlight the fact that we know little about the ninja as a whole. I know next to nothing about this school but as it was used in D. Craig's jujitsu book, I figured it couldn't be that bad. The fact is, that which we call ninjutsu was created out of a clan's need to survive against the military might of warring daimyos. Since their focus was on survival and not fame, I'm willing to bet that there are styles of ninjutsu still unknown to the general public. After all, I'm sure there are secrets and sects within the ninja history that even Hatsumi Soke will not discuss in public and may not even be aware of. The whole ninja legend has been built on mystery and misinformation. It is this fact that allows fakers like Kim to exist. There are probably styles and groups of fighting systems still unknown the world over but the reason the ninja are a used so much for selling a school is because they are high up in media consciousness and people like the legend behind them. Either way, a person looking for instruction in MA in general, and ninjutsu in particular, needs to be highly discriminating and critical when seeking a school.
-Z

"The thorn *****s only those who would harm the rose."

[IronFist]

Excellent post, zen_celt.

Speaking of misinformation, and just so everyone here knows, ninja did NOT use straight swords like in the movies.

Iron

"Now why the **** would you censor "d.ork?"

Ironman PostLog: 1100 - 11/20/01

[jameswebsteruk]

******, Ironfist, you have ruined my life. As a 15 year old back in the 80s, I got me one of those Ninjato straight bladed swords. Man, I was cool, and the envy of my friends.

You mean I cant use the scabbard to boost myself up to windows, use it as a blowpipe, and conceal powder and magic dust in it? Day-am.

Actually, one of the MA magazines at the time repeated what youd said, then another said that the reason they had straightbladed swords were that they didnt have access to superior samurai weapons, so had to make their own, clumsy copies. It reckoned that if you were an assassin, an unsharpened 3 foot long lump of metal on the back of someones head would pretty much do the job just as well as a well-honed katana, which I wouldn't necessarily disagree with. :)

Then again, if the ninja families were so rich from the contracts they carried out, they should have been able to afford the best weapons and tools.

The chalice from the palace has the pellet with the poison,
The vessel with the pestle has the brew that is true!

[Rolling Elbow]

I think i am going off emtionally lol ..i completely misread that.. :cool:

Michael Panzerotti
Taijutsu Nobody from the Great White North..

[Kristoffer]

good thread, this is. Ninpo tajutsu,,,
hey Rolling boy! Do u train "ninja" weapons like throwing knifes/stars and such? or is that just fake?

~K~
"maybe not in combat.. but think of the chicks man, the chicks!" -- someone on the subject of back-flips in combat --

[IronFist]

In old Japan, carrying a straight blade would definately have stuck out. "Hey look everyone, there's a ninja!"

Then again, if the ninja families were so rich from the contracts they carried out, they should have been able to afford the best weapons and tools.

Ninjas weren't really hired assassins, so I doubt they carried out contracts.

Iron

"Now why the **** would you censor "d.ork?"

Ironman PostLog: 1100 - 11/20/01

[zen_celt]

So what kind of sword did they use?
-ZC

"The thorn *****s only those who would harm the rose."

[Kevin]

The shinobigatana (ie, ninja sword) was slightly shorter than a katana with a shorter tsuka. Many of the techniques of Togakure Ryu emphasize passing cuts which use the momentum of the body to compensate for not having a finely honed katana, as well as many unorthodox methods of thrusting which are not often seen in kenjutsu koryu. Likewise, Koto Ryu kenjutsu stress using the short blade in kyojitsu (deceitful techniques), such as using the blade to reflect sunlight if the opponent has the sun at his back, and using the groove to collect rain or dirt to flick at the enemy before attacking.

Jujutsu, Ninpo, Chugoku Kenpo

[Kung Lek]

:D

Ok, here's what can be said.

The martial arts that were practice by the various ninja clans were varied from village to village, practitioner to practitioner and even in some cases the art taught by the master was evolved by the student.

Ninja, in their beginnings were hired assassins.
They existed because Samurai could commit no dishonourable deeds according to their codes and to do so meant that thye must in trurn commint sepuku or suicide confirmed by a friend.

The Ninja were hired to carry out the "dishonourable" deeds that the samurai who hired them could not physically commit due to being bound by his code.

They were in essence, a loophole clause to the bushido.

so, if a samurai was tired of his general, he was not allowed to kill him himself by the code he lived by. If the general died naturally or in battle, then his samurai became ronin, or samurai without a master. If the ninja was hired to kill the master then the samurai became either the new clan leader or became ronin and could serve another master.

ok?
now, the ninja way of killing was as varied as the colours of leaves on the trees in autumn.
They had numerous methods from town to town as I stated and the only thing that bound them was that they would remain secretive of the actions they took on fear of being executed for even existing because they were a threat to the regional clan leaders (daimyo).

so, you can see how it is unlikely there were "ninja schools" or "train as a ninja here" signs or for that matter, as far as anyone was concerned they only existed if they were caught or if no one found out who killed so and so.

ronin samurai themselves could be hired as assassins to gain position and therefore they would be ninja, but only until they gained position again at which time they were samurai again. THis was rare.

Ninja were almost never of the samurai class and nor were they bound by the samurai code and thus they were allowed to kill with stealth, that is to say, they did not have to face their opponent to do them in.

so the arts they did were likely the same arts as the samurai, but without the formal court training or prestige, probably done from watchiong samurai train, and then reiterating the practices in secret so that they could acquire the skills.

does anyone see how weird it would be to have a "ninja school" now?

ok, peace

Kung Lek

Martial Arts Links (http://members.home.net/kunglek)

[Kevin]

Ninja "schools" most likely didnt exist. Its not as if someone just decided to join a samurai or a ninja school. Ninpo techniques were to be used in addition to regular arts of the day, such as running long distances, walking at night, and fighting more effectively in close quarters. Taijutsu is like jujutsu, but it has more influence from Chinese "kempo". Almost every recorded ninja that we know of was a member of the samurai aristocracy, they just had special skills.

Jujutsu, Ninpo, Chugoku Kenpo

[IronFist]

Kung Lek, I'm not sure I agree with you on the whole assassin-do-the-samurai's-dirty-deeds-thing.

But I haven't researched ninja in a long time so you don't get a counter argument back at this point. Sorry :p

Iron

"Now why the **** would you censor "d.ork?"

Ironman PostLog: 1100 - 11/20/01

[Mr T]

Thanks for all the help guys. Just one more question though. can u tell me if this place looks legit?

http://www.chicago-ninjutsu.org

[Mr T]

Bump

[Rolling Elbow]

The credentials are there..now go and see if he can talk the walk. That is the bottom line..its like buying a car based on a commercial rather than getting behind the wheel. That;s how I found my instructor..he interviewed me and then i went and saw him. It is not what they say but what they do and what they teach that will really tell you if they are legit.

On a side note..i see more long fist than i do Kempo in my style.The chinese influence cannot be ignored though.

Michael Panzerotti
Taijutsu Nobody from the Great White North..

[IronFist]

I'm no authority, but it looks good.

"Now why the **** would you censor "d.ork?"

Ironman PostLog: 1100 - 11/20/01

[Colin]

I don't know how ligit Ninjitsu is, but the "under construction" gif is cool!!!!!!!!!!

However I have to agree with kung lek, about a ninja school being kind of illogical.
A bit like sticking a sign outside my class saying "al-qaeda terrorist training class, 7:30pm to 9:00pm. age 10 years and up. Call 0800-bomb-my-ass"

you know what I mean!

CT.......

[Nichiren]

I have read that if a Ninja where caught out in the open by a samuraj it was bye-bye ninja. Is this true?

[Duncan]

I had a very brief stint in Ninjutsu several (well, 7) years ago, and I now practise Wing Chun.

Are there any people posting on this thread that have practised Ninjutsu for a few years and would like to comment on its effectiveness?

It seemed to me that the art was complete in as much as having a diverse variety of techniques, but something didn't quite feel right for me.

The drills, basic stance (sorry can't remember its name) and application of technique seemed questionable. Anyone have some ideas regarding this?

I'm happy with the Wing Chun - very simple, direct and efficient means of dealing with attacks. The Ninjustu seemed a little too contrived, with too much emphasis on fairly complex joint locks, often against an opponent that would, it seem, just stand there and let them be applied.

I have great respect for the people that taught me, but I had doubts regarding the art. Can someone enlighten me?

Many thanks.

*I just meet what I would be if I wasd a hot women attracted to me* - Unity (message on general Kung Fu forum)

*Fook the lot of 'em*

[Rolling Elbow]

Yes I've studied taijutsu for a few years..I quit jujutsu because of it!

It all depends on the teacher..but that has been said tons of times before so I won't waste time on it. It is sometimes true that even the best teachers spend lots of time on joint locks that may "seem" too contrived but the point of EVERYTHING in ninjutsu is too teach you NOT techniques..but principles behind which to execute peices of techniques as they become available to you or because you have no choice but to fall back on them.

The stances are referred to as "kamae". They are taught "rigidly" because you are learning the principle behind the kata, and the strenght behind proper body alignment.In combat, those rigid techniques and postures become one tapestry of interwoven techniques.. For example, you should spend hours breaking down ONE kamae and see where it gets you. THAT is proper training. You don't just say "that's it, that is my stance, done" You pick apart all potential angles of attack, defense etc..You see what parts of your body can be used to intercept and destroy an incoming limb, you learn how to keep mobile and remain in transition, you learn to see where the opponent's balance lies once you hit him and what joint lock can then apply. Taijutsu is exactly that..there are no certainties, only endless possibilities that should yield a certain result..not victory, but survival :-)

p.s- I have seen trapping, push hands, limb destruction, long fist, and other elements within taijutsu...it is complete and works not because it is pretty in a kata, but because when you extract the principles and lay them in for real, you end up with devastating results.

Michael Panzerotti
Taijutsu Nobody from the Great White North..

[Good, better, Me]

Well, I've heard that Musashi had won all the fights he had been in, except for one. That person was a "ninja" or, you could say that he had trained ninjutsu but anyway. (Spelling...)
They fought two battles. In the first one, Musashi won him quite easily. After the loss, the "ninja" went back to training and invented jo-jutsu applying the taijutsu movement. When he faced Musashi again, Musashi said after his loss that his fighting technique was extraordinary and very complex/confusing.
Sorry about my spelling. It's late, and I'm tired. I've heard that story from few different places/persons.

Ninjas do not exist as long as they don't want to.
http://www.ninjasite.com/shinobi-kai/pic4.gif

[Mr T]

what is the difference between taijitsu and ninjitsu??


and any other opinions on this schools "legitness"
www.Chicago-ninjutsu.org (http://www.chicago-ninjutsu.org)

[SantaClaus]

musashi didn't die?


Ninja didn't sword fight people.

A ninja would more likely dress and act the part of another profession, they had to learn a couple extra, IE monk, prostitute showgirl, trader. Then he could get close enough to gather intelligence of poison someone.

Samurai didn't spend all their time in the war arts, but it was premium for their training, the also were well read. The only advantage ninja had was a lack of bushido. Nothing more.

Maybe that guy DID fend off musashi, but I doubt it. Tricky or not, musashi was the man, if he wasn't, he would be dead.

Don't get me wrong, I've loved ninjas since the 80's. I can't wait for tenchu 3 to come out, I just don't put too much faith in ninja hand to hand combat. I don't think it survived, I think what is there is kung fu mixed with jujitsu and karate, nothing wrong with that for fighting, but I don't feel that there is a realistic link to ninjas in feudal Japan anymore than modern boxing comes from the knights of Europe or Pancrase from the gladitorium.

HO HO HO
http://thumb-2.image.altavista.com/image/100933751

[Kevin]

Gonnosuke was the person who fended off Musashi with a Jo stave, but I dont know if he studied ninjutsu. Musashi did have an opponent named Shishido Baiken, who used a kusarigama and was from the Iga province, which has led many to believe that he may have been a ninja. However, Musashi did kill him using his shoto; at least, thats the legend, but its hard to believe anything about him due to the fact that he is like Davy Crockett or Jim Bowie to the Japanese.

Jujutsu, Ninpo, Chugoku Kenpo

[Rolling Elbow]

Santa,

I don't know where to start..what an illinformed statement. There are chinese long fist roots in taijutsu, but the grappling and combat techniques taught are rooted from traditional schools upon which the very schools you think "ninjutsu" has borrowed from, are based!

Reverse the order. Comparing boxing to Pancrase by saying some form of it has survived may be legit..saying ninjutsu is as common and modern as boxing in what it teaches and where it has borrowed from is simply ludicrous. A composite of traditional schools or ryu-ha it may be, a pool of modern thought and poorly conceived combat techniques it most certainly is NOT.

Michael Panzerotti
Taijutsu Nobody from the Great White North..