clinch work

[Dragonzbane76]

anyone on here work clinch? specifically speaking hooking, plum (half, full), pummel, pressure focus, balance counters, oh and kicking from clinch, etc.....discuss

[YouKnowWho]

Please define your terms such as: hooking, plum (half, full), pummel, pressure focus, balance counters, ... I don't think those terms are used in TCMA. After we can map your terms into the TCMA terms, the discussion will be much easier.

hooking - Under/Over hook?
plum - fruit?
pummel - beating with the fist?
pressure focus - ???
balance counter - ???

It's similiar to map Judo "Uchi Mata" -> TCMA "挑(Tiao) - Leg Lift". Unless you train Judo, you won't know what "Uchi Meta" is.

Terms used in TCMA are:

- 圈(Quan) – Under hook
- 抄(Chao) - Over hook
- 抹(Mo) - Wiping
- 偏(Pian) – Head circling
- 夾(Jia) – Clamping head
- ...

[Kellen Bassette]

I like clinch work.

[lkfmdc]

anyone on here work clinch? specifically speaking hooking, plum (half, full), pummel, pressure focus, balance counters, oh and kicking from clinch, etc.....discuss

I have no idea what any of these things are


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qZwNcGRTD4o

[lkfmdc]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ujEq6RCbeE

[lkfmdc]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hBDDR5quKmI

[lkfmdc]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ASuplF8cWHc

[lkfmdc]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mnP_LVxjv88

you understand of course that I have well over 100 videos like this up?

[lkfmdc]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DU0u7WAQcyE

[lkfmdc]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a-vBnEnKApw

I have found ANOTHER reason not to like this new forum, having to post only ONE VIDEO per post :mad:

[YouKnowWho]

I have no idea what any of these things are ...

I thought I'm the only person has Chinglish problem. Are those special wrestling terms? When I Google "plum wrestling", I get this.

http://imageshack.us/a/img34/2157/xf2z.jpg

Now lkfmdc can make clip to appear in the post. Does anyone know how to make picture to appear in the post?

[Kellen Bassette]

"Plum" refers to the collection of Thai clinching techniques.

[lkfmdc]

I thought I'm the only person has Chinglish problem. Are those special wrestling terms? When I Google "plum wrestling", I get this.

http://imageshack.us/a/img34/2157/xf2z.jpg

Now lkfmdc can make clip to appear in the post. Does anyone know how to make picture to appear in the post?

John, I am being sarcastic, I have spend decades collecting material on the clinch, it is my "hobby"

"plum" is really "plaammm" or something like this in Thai language... it is the way they clinch the neck, but I like your picture better :D

[wenshu]

http://imageshack.us/a/img34/2157/xf2z.jpg
Does anyone know how to make picture to appear in the post?

I have always quietly wondered how the guy who invented the right click contextual desktop menu doesn't know how to use bb html tags. (available before the update)

http://imageshack.us/a/img34/2157/xf2z.jpg

Will produce:

http://imageshack.us/a/img34/2157/xf2z.jpg

Alternatively you can click the image button in the editor and paste the image url there.

http://i.imgur.com/566cfBv.png

[Kellen Bassette]

"plum" is really "plaammm" or something like this in Thai language...

The word sounds closest to "bom" by my ear, at any rate in most videos and such they massacre the word pronouncing it like the English word "plum".

[YouKnowWho]

I have always quietly wondered how the guy who invented the right click contextual desktop menu doesn't know how to use bb html tags. (available before the update)

http://imageshack.us/a/img34/2157/xf2z.jpg

Will produce:

http://imageshack.us/a/img34/2157/xf2z.jpg

Alternatively you can click the image button in the editor and paste the image url there.

http://i.imgur.com/566cfBv.png

I don't mean to include picture as a line that you have to click to open it. I mean just to have a rectangular picture to appear in your post same as clip.

The youtube is shown here:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qZwNcGRTD4o

The picture is not shown here. The ... can put up a picture in another forum but just not here for some unknown reason.

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/34/xf2z.jpg/
http://imageshack.us/a/img34/2157/xf2z.jpg

[Dragonzbane76]

well instead of me describing most of what I was asking. maybe ross can post some more vids. :) anyways YKW most of what I described was in ross's vids. a lot of what I was referring to was from thai and wrestling. Pummel is a wrestling term and more of a drill in most circumstances, for seeking the under hooks, or seeking the center of someone's gravity with under hooks. just curious to see what the tcma community is teaching in these area's.

[YouKnowWho]

for seeking the under hooks, ...
The under hook is only 1 contact point. You will need at least 2 contact points to take your opponent down. The 2nd contact point usually is the "leg skill" (or hip skill).

[Dragonzbane76]

its easier to gain someones center of gravity with double under hooks, pummeling is a drill for achieving this.

[YouKnowWho]

its easier to gain someones center of gravity with double under hooks, pummeling is a drill for achieving this.

When you get your opponent in "double underhooks", you just give your opponent a free "double overhooks" on you. It balances out, both will have the same center of gravity issue, and nobody has advantage over another. It depends on your leg (or hip) skill to throw the other person down. The clinch is just to prepare for your throw. The clinch is not throw by itself.

The

- "double underhooks" is good for lift up.
- "double overrhooks" is good for press down.
- "one underhook and one overhook" is good for spin in circle.

Since most throws will require spin motion, the "one underhook and one overhook" is used more often. When it's used, the "one overhook" is called "arm wrap".

This is the TCMA way to look at the clinch, the wrestling and Judo may look at clinch from a different angles.

[Frost]

When you get your opponent in "double underhooks", you just give your opponent a free "double overhooks" on you. It balances out, both will have the same center of gravity issue, and nobody has advantage over another. It depends on your leg (or hip) skill to throw the other person down. The clinch is just to prepare for your throw. The clinch is not throw by itself.

The

- "double underhooks" is good for lift up.
- "double overrhooks" is good for press down.
- "one underhook and one overhook" is good for spin in circle.

Since most throws will require spin motion, the "one underhook and one overhook" is used more often. When it's used, the "one overhook" is called "arm wrap".

This is the TCMA way to look at the clinch, the wrestling and Judo may look at clinch from a different angles.

no gi wise double underhooks trumps double over hooks 9 times out of ten, it is the most dominant position you can hope to achieve and the one most coaches will teach you to look for, the only reason you are also taught take downs from 50/50 position and single underhooks is because your opponent will fight like made to not allow you to get the second underhook
with double underhooks i can lift you up, control your hips and bodylock and throw you, drop to your legs and attack them, trip and dive etc,

[Dragonzbane76]

have to agree with frost on this one YKW. I agree that some instances require different "arrangements" but in most cases double under hook will beat out an over hook position. I'll let mr. Ortiz describe it better than I can. pummel drill is wrestling based, and a drill. used for learning in a chest to chest clinch.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eaPPyUnJEDQ

[YouKnowWho]

in most cases double under hook will beat out an over hook position.
Not necessary. This is what you can do with overhook.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GmDSsJAVaYs

All you need is just one overhook. You don't even need both overhooks. Your opponent's underhook can give you a chance to "crack" on his elbow joint. All you need to extend the back of your over hook palm to touch on your opponent's chest. You then spin to to opposite direction. This will force your opponent's underhook arm to be straight. You then put pressure on his underhook elbow joint.

Your double underhooks also expose youir head for your opponent's "head lock".

[YouKnowWho]

This is overhook too. Overhook can change into head lock. Underhook can change into waist surround (or bear hug). The change is stil 50% and 50%.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eafjdETLW5o

[Frost]

This is overhook too. Overhook can change into head lock. Underhook can change into waist surround (or bear hug). The change is stil 50% and 50%.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eafjdETLW5o

underhook allows access to both the body AND the legs, the two biggest and most important areas to attack in no gi grappling for takedowns, overhook simply isnt as useful, because apart from the arm all you can move up to is the head which in no gi is harder to grab than with a gi, and where submissions are allowed it becomes a liability to concentrate your attacks on your opponents head

[YouKnowWho]

underhook allows access to both the body AND the legs, the two biggest and most important areas to attack in no gi grappling for takedowns, overhook simply isnt as useful, because apart from the arm all you can move up to is the head which in no gi is harder to grab than with a gi, and where submissions are allowed it becomes a liability to concentrate your attacks on your opponents head

No gi is needed for "head lock". I'll pay anything to get my "head lock".

http://imageshack.us/a/img853/695/changheadlock.jpg

This is the "cracking" that you can use to deal with underhook, bear hug, and waist surround.

http://imageshack.us/a/img808/7436/cracking1.jpg

[Frost]

No gi is needed for "head lock". I'll pay anything to get my "head lock".

http://imageshack.us/a/img853/695/changheadlock.jpg

This is the "cracking" that you can use to deal with underhook, bear hug, and waist surround.

http://imageshack.us/a/img808/7436/cracking1.jpg

you might, the reality is the vast majority of no gi wrestlers, especially those in submission wrestling would not reach around the head unless they had to, its the same with the overbook, of course you can do things against it like ****zer into front head lock, hip throw etc but it doesn't change the fact its an inferior position for most people with less options than the underhook

[YouKnowWho]

reach around the head ... its an inferior position ... less options ...

When your opponent pays attention on your head lock, he may ignore the rest part of his body. This will give you a chance to play with his body in many different ways. When you apply "head lock", you will have the following options.

1. leg twist
2. leg spring
3. leg lift
4. shin bite
5. inner foot edge sweep
6. scoop
7. sticky
8. inner heel sweep
9. leg block
10. outer twist
11. front cut
12. shoulder press
13. flip
14. foot sweep
15. downward pulling
16. flip turtle
17. crack
18. waist lift
19. outer hook
20. knife hook
21. ...

How much more options do you need? I'm writing a book and the title is as simple as "The Head Lock" (hope I'll have enough motivation to finish it).

If you don't know what you are doing, and don't spend enough training time to develop your strong head lock, you should not use it. It will expose your waist, the center part of your body which is very risky.

A strong head lock should give your opponent a skull crushing feeling.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KVQQTLZMkFY

[YouKnowWho]

You can use overhook to crack your opponent's underhook arm just like this. This will force him to step in and try to release the pressure that you put on his elbow joint. It will open many other opportunities for you.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0AebAImXrx8

[YouKnowWho]

The easiest "head lock" application is just to

- extend your leg out,
- block your opponent's leg,
- spring your extended leg from bending to straight,
- spin your body,
- use your body weight and gravity to take your opponent down, and
- end with a perfect "side mount" dominate position.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hrkm9KIzWcg

In more fancy way you can use your leg to "horse back kick" to knock both of your opponent's legs to be off the ground and cause his body to fly.

http://imageshack.us/a/img19/3762/johnleglift.jpg

[Dragonzbane76]

YKW I'm not saying that you cannot pull things off from an overhook position. But in no gi grappling I feel much much safer and in more control with double under hooks. You can show vids all day of over hook throws, they work in the right situations, but wrestling is about control of the center. If you gain the double Under, you gain access to the legs, balance, and their mobility. everyone to there own, but you'll never convince me that a double overhook trumps a double under. :)

[YouKnowWho]

you'll never convince me that a double overhook trumps a double under. :)
I have no intention to change anybody's opinion.

I may use this thread as a pre advertisement for my up coming book "Head Lock" where overhook is used quite often. Later on, I may write a book "Single Leg" that underhook will be used quite often. If I say that one can use overhook to counter underhook, later on if I also say that one can use underhook to counter overhook, I may just get myself into the old Chinese spear and shield paradox.

http://imageshack.us/a/img607/5666/spearshield.jpg
http://imageshack.us/a/img826/5230/spearshield1.jpg

In the story, a man was trying to sell a spear and a shield. When asked how good his spear was, he said that his spear could pierce any shield. Then, when asked how good his shield was, he said that it could defend from all spear attacks. Then one person asked him what would happen if he were to take his spear to strike his shield; the seller could not answer. This led to the idiom of "zìxīang máodùn" (自相矛盾), or "self-contradictory".

[Dragonzbane76]

you mean "paradox" I presume? :)