Sparring without instructor

[YouKnowWho]

If your TCMA teacher doesn't teach sparring, you will need to form your own sparring group and accumulate sparring experience yourself. Many people may say that sparring without instructor may develop bad habit such as

- close your eyes when punch,
- always move in a straight line,
- afriend to try new moves,
- ...

but IMO, the worse habit is not spar at all.

What's your opinion on this?

[Kellen Bassette]

Sparring without an instructor is much better than not sparring at all. If you do this, you will have bad habits, but if your half-way willing to listen to one of your sparring partners, who is observing you spar someone else, then you should be able to correct a lot of mistakes on your own. You don't need to be a Shifu to tell someone to stop flinching, don't turn your back, keep your hands up, don't back peddle, ect...

This kind of advice can be given by anyone with a basic MA background, who is observing things you may not notice yourself doing in the heat of sparring.

[wenshu]

If your TCMA teacher doesn't teach sparring, you will need to form your own sparring group and accumulate sparring experience yourself. Many people may say that sparring without instructor may develop bad habit such as

- close your eyes when punch,
- always move in a straight line,
- afriend to try new moves,
- ...

but IMO, the worse habit is not spar at all.

What's your opinion on this?

If at least one person in the group is more seasoned than the rest this could help prevent the development of too many bad habits. That effectively makes them an instructor but presumably this individual would work in the same as everyone else.

[Kellen Bassette]

I knew a MMA practitioner years ago that was doing unsupervised training with a bunch of other aspiring fighters. They did not have a teacher or a coach. When he was sparring, his opponent struck him with an elbow strike to the temple three times. He could not see or think clearly for six months and his neurologist was not sure if he would ever have normal brain function again. Fortunately, he regained his faculties and was doing well the last time I heard from him. It was quite a scare.

Two students of a teacher I knew were at the school, unsupervised, and sparring. One student hit the other in the heart and he immediately felt faint. They stopped sparring and the student who was struck was taken home by his mother. As he sat on his bed, he said he felt funny and fell over dead from cardiac tamponade.

As to the first story, not training with morons would solve that problem. For the second, I'm not sure having a trainer would have made a difference. Sounds like a freak occurrence.

[wenshu]

As to the first story, not training with morons would solve that problem.

You would think not training with ****ing psychopaths would go without saying.

[SPJ]

A referee or a supervisor is always needed.

Both sparring parties are advised about safety and mutually agreed rules before spar.

A third party to ref or supervise so that both sparring persons will stick with saftey and rules.

No strike, elbow or knee to unpadded areas etc.

Our sparring partner is our teacher. We want to learn without seriously hurting one another.

[bawang]

sparring is the best teacher. you can become the number one fighter in the world just by sparring.

[GeneChing]

You would think not training with ****ing psychopaths would go without saying. This is the martial world. It's lousy with f-ing psychopaths. :rolleyes:

You definitely need some kind of monitor when sparring, whether it be a coach, an instructor, or more training buddies. Some one has to break it up when things get nasty.

[SIFU RON]

If your TCMA teacher doesn't teach sparring, you will need to form your own sparring group and accumulate sparring experience yourself. Many people may say that sparring without instructor may develop bad habit such as

- close your eyes when punch,
- always move in a straight line,
- afriend to try new moves,
- ...

but IMO, the worse habit is not spar at all.

What's your opinion on this?

When I was a kid ( young ) we all use to slap fight with our friends and wrestle a lot. It paid off , that was long ago. With all the video and internet stuff around today practicing marital arts without a teacher especially sparring is unwise in my opinion. If one must , I would recommend protective equipment.

my best to all

[Miqi]

sparring is the best teacher. you can become the number one fighter in the world just by sparring.

Well that's not true. If it was, professional fighters would just spar. But they don't just spar, do they?

[Miqi]

Anyone remember the old karate fighter Joe Lewis (not the boxer of ****nymic name)? He said that he won the world championship by training solely on his own. I recognise that someone would be unlikely to achieve that feat against today's standard... but is interesting as a historical curiosity nevertheless.

[SPJ]

Three golden rules

1 rules: 10 to 30 second contact and break or --That is if you can not hit the other in close range in 10 second, disengage. You cannot throw the other in 30 second contact, disengage etc.

2 safety: no elbow, no knee, no groin, no temple strike etc

3 end points. thrown down 3 times (shuai jiao). reach face 3 times, reach chest 3 times (point sparring) etc

Communicate well beforehand

then spar away.

:)

[Kellen Bassette]

Three golden rules

1 rules: 10 to 30 second contact and break or --That is if you can not hit the other in close range in 10 second, disengage. You cannot throw the other in 30 second contact, disengage etc.

2 safety: no elbow, no knee, no groin, no temple strike etc

3 end points. thrown down 3 times (shuai jiao). reach face 3 times, reach chest 3 times (point sparring) etc

Communicate well beforehand

then spar away.

:)

10 to 30 seconds isn't much time, you want to work so you can push your cardio a bit, I think anywhere from 90 seconds to 5 minutes, depending on the conditioning level.

I don't see any problem with the knee, as long as you don't go to the face...If your doing an art that incorporates knees you need to learn how to use them live.

[SimonM]

Three golden rules

1 rules: 10 to 30 second contact and break or --That is if you can not hit the other in close range in 10 second, disengage. You cannot throw the other in 30 second contact, disengage etc.

2 safety: no elbow, no knee, no groin, no temple strike etc

3 end points. thrown down 3 times (shuai jiao). reach face 3 times, reach chest 3 times (point sparring) etc

Communicate well beforehand

then spar away.

:)

I disagree with all these three golden rules.

1. Engagement and disengagement should be naturalistic. Each fight has its rhythm and you should learn to feel it. Also you should push your endurance in sparring practice.

2. This is all well and good if it is what the parties sparring agree on. Some may prefer to include some or all of these in the allowed strikes - particularly elbows and knees which are bread and butter for close-fighting.

3. End point again should be arrived at through two factors - the limits of endurance and the mutual agreement of participants. I disagree with this less than points one and two.

I agree entirely with "communicate well beforehand" that is a MUST.

[Syn7]

Some of my best memories are of throwing down at the park. No instructor, just wraps, gloves, mouthpiece, cup and a whole lot of bloody noses. Peer review was always an important factor. Everyone had diff backgrounds and everyone pitched in. I enjoyed sparring at the gym, but it was never as fun as those summer days outside.

[SimonM]

Some of my best memories are of throwing down at the park. No instructor, just wraps, gloves, mouthpiece, cup and a whole lot of bloody noses. Peer review was always an important factor. Everyone had diff backgrounds and everyone pitched in. I enjoyed sparring at the gym, but it was never as fun as those summer days outside.

Word. 1234

[Syn7]

Actually, one thing was more fun than that. When I was like 16, we had a small group of us who enjoyed certain hallucinogens. I lived close to a driving range that was well lit at night. We would go box on the putting green. It was so much fun. A non level, irregular shaped, but soft area to throw down. Good times. Nothing like getting swung on while tweeking on an 1/8th of shrooms.

[-N-]

Three golden rules

1 rules: 10 to 30 second contact and break or --That is if you can not hit the other in close range in 10 second, disengage. You cannot throw the other in 30 second contact, disengage etc.

2 safety: no elbow, no knee, no groin, no temple strike etc

3 end points. thrown down 3 times (shuai jiao). reach face 3 times, reach chest 3 times (point sparring) etc

Communicate well beforehand

then spar away.

:)


10 to 30 seconds isn't much time, you want to work so you can push your cardio a bit, I think anywhere from 90 seconds to 5 minutes, depending on the conditioning level.


I disagree with all these three golden rules.

[...]

Also you should push your endurance in sparring practice.


Depends on what you are trying to develop.

Are you sparring for conditioning and endurance? Or are you sparring for ability to end the fight decisively?

I have students do both. Continuous sparring for conditioning.

Then "3 second death match" for explosive aggression to end the fight quickly and cleanly.

In the "kill or be killed" context, 10-30 seconds can be too long. Originally, I gave students only 5 seconds to take out the other guy, and even that was too long and allowed for hesitation. 3 seconds worked out about right.

The result from combination of continuous sparring and also 3 second time limit worked pretty well, and it showed when they went to spar people outside of our group.

[SimonM]

Depends on what you are trying to develop.

Are you sparring for conditioning and endurance? Or are you sparring for ability to end the fight decisively?

I have students do both. Continuous sparring for conditioning.

Then "3 second death match" for explosive aggression to end the fight quickly and cleanly.

In the "kill or be killed" context, 10-30 seconds can be too long. Originally, I gave students only 5 seconds to take out the other guy, and even that was too long and allowed for hesitation. 3 seconds worked out about right.

The result from combination of continuous sparring and also 3 second time limit worked pretty well, and it showed when they went to spar people outside of our group.

Unless you're fighting with weapons the truth is that you're not going to be ending a fight in three seconds. If there's such a gross difference in skill level and size that you can, with bare hands, take somebody down with, well, with one punch basically, you probably shouldn't be fighting them to begin with.

Either you are fighting in the ring, in which case shame on you for going after people who can't stand a chance against you.
Or you're fighting for real in which case, if the person you are facing is at all sane / sober you can probably intimidate them into backing down without throwing one punch. Or you're fighting for real against a nutcase or somebody who is blind falling down drunk in which case you should probably be restraining them rather than beating them down - and a restraint of an irrational attacker isn't precisely something you train with three second burst drills.

OTOH, if you're training with weapons this is a different story - but sparring generally means fist-fighting more than knife fighting.

[SPJ]

If you really want to spar without a third person watching over you.

may be list the rules and post it on the wall.

Read them first and communicate well.

Spar away.

As pointed out, in the heat of the melee,

it is hard to disengage or stop without a third person present to intervene.

:eek:

[-N-]

Unless you're fighting with weapons the truth is that you're not going to be ending a fight in three seconds. If there's such a gross difference in skill level and size that you can, with bare hands, take somebody down with, well, with one punch basically, you probably shouldn't be fighting them to begin with.

TCMA puts skill in third place behind strength and guts. Guts, strength, skill.

This training develops the aggressive intent for instantaneous all out attack.

The ideal would be to end the fight. That may not be possible, but you still have advantage over someone that did not train this.

Also, you can get in a lot more than just one punch in 3 seconds.

One of my students went to Air Force Academy. He was the smallest cadet and got put up against the biggest guy for pugil stick matches. He took him out in less than 3 seconds.

Another student liked to go to open mat sparring. He went up against blackbelts, boxers, and MMA guys, some that outweighed him by up to 80lbs. He had them consistently on the run from his attacks.

[SimonM]

TCMA puts skill in third place behind strength and guts. Guts, strength, skill.

This training develops the aggressive intent for instantaneous all out attack.

The ideal would be to end the fight. That may not be possible, but you still have advantage over someone that did not train this.

Also, you can get in a lot more than just one punch in 3 seconds.

One of my students went to Air Force Academy. He was the smallest cadet and got put up against the biggest guy for pugil stick matches. He took him out in less than 3 seconds.

Another student liked to go to open mat sparring. He went up against blackbelts, boxers, and MMA guys, some that outweighed him by up to 80lbs. He had them consistently on the run from his attacks.

All I'm saying is that if your training assumes you WILL end a fight in 3 seconds (by micro-burst sparring matches) then you will find yourself at a disadvantage when you fail to end a fight in 3 seconds. And if you aren't trying to crack some guy's head open with a baton that's more likely than not.

Aggression in a fight is a good thing; but aggression doesn't necessarily (and shouldn't ever) come at the expense of endurance. Another old fighting chestnut: it's not how much punishment you dish out. It's how much punishment you can take and remain standing.

[-N-]

All I'm saying is that if your training assumes you WILL end a fight in 3 seconds (by micro-burst sparring matches) then you will find yourself at a disadvantage when you fail to end a fight in 3 seconds. And if you aren't trying to crack some guy's head open with a baton that's more likely than not.

Aggression in a fight is a good thing; but aggression doesn't necessarily (and shouldn't ever) come at the expense of endurance. Another old fighting chestnut: it's not how much punishment you dish out. It's how much punishment you can take and remain standing.

Agreed.

Which is why I recommend doing continuous sparring as well as multiple 3 second matches.

For the 3 second matches, have the students do 20 or 30 in a row, one right after the other. It is more intense than continuous sparring. Do it like interval training.

This is also a good way to train mental toughness.

[David Jamieson]

If your TCMA teacher doesn't teach sparring, you will need to form your own sparring group and accumulate sparring experience yourself. Many people may say that sparring without instructor may develop bad habit such as

- close your eyes when punch,
- always move in a straight line,
- afriend to try new moves,
- ...

but IMO, the worse habit is not spar at all.

What's your opinion on this?

We had an evening sparring group back when I trained formally. It was no big deal. It's just sparring and yeah, sometimes guys got a little hurt.
After that happens, THEN we'd ask sifu for advice.
Later, sparring with others just became a matter of fact thing.

New learners tend to fight instead of spar and they also tend to carry a lot of ego.
That can be ironed out with repetition.

[Faux Newbie]

I generally follow the approach that, if I don't know someone enough that I don't know that I trust them to spar reasonably, then I don't spar them. There are so many boxers, bjj guys, taiji guys, etc. out there, that there's no reason I should feel any need to train with the douchiest of them, I'll opt for the coolest.

Sparring is about testing what I've entrained, imo, not the time to start entraining. And finding what else needs to be entrained. Not about testing whether I can defend myself. I train to make a tech effective before the sparring stage, I don't try to enter the sparring stage unsure on what the effect of the technique is, that's asking for trouble.

That said, if I choose training partners wisely, a moderator is not always important.

As for the other question, about habits, particular people will make sure to develop good habits, sloppy people won't, with or without a teacher. Good students can ask someone whose knowledge they respect, "I sparred the other day, while no teacher was around, and kept having this occur, what are your thoughts," and they learn, or they do their own research or thought on it. If someone needs a teacher to notice they get uppercutted a lot, they aren't sparring to learn, they aren't paying any attention, and until they do, sparring without someone to guide them is almost pointless, imo.

[YouKnowWho]

sparring without someone to guide them is almost pointless, imo.

Sparring is skill "testing" and not skill "developing". You don't learn in sparring. If you don't train hip throw, there is no way that you will be able to use your hip throw successfully in sparring.

[Faux Newbie]

Sparring is skill "testing" and not skill "developing". You don't learn in sparring. If you don't train hip throw, there is no way that you will be able to use your hip throw successfully in sparring.

Oh, I agree. My point was, if they don't even know what is contributing to them succeeding or failing the skill testing, then they've risked injury for nothing. And many people don't. It's only useful skills testing if someone is keeping track of the results and basing their training from there on what they noticed, and then testing that training to make sure that they really understood what it was that occurred in sparring in the first place.

If the person who keeps track and tests things is the student, then, assuming they choose to spar with people who aren't psychos, then I don't see why they cannot gain from sparring, even if a teacher is not present.

If a person does not pay attention to the results, then they still need someone to watch and tell them, "you aren't watching your opponent", or "you just stood there, move", etc.

The first person can solve those problems by observation. The second needs an outside motivator.

i.e. you learn from sparring, not while you spar, if you are aware of what happened while you sparred. If someone is sparring to be a better fighter, they have to do this. Otherwise, they are perhaps sparring for other reasons, but will not gain as much from sparring.

[SimonM]

You don't learn in sparring.
I beg to differ.

If you don't train hip throw, there is no way that you will be able to use your hip throw successfully in sparring.
You don't learn everything from sparring but you won't finish learning the hip throw until you ditch the compliant drills.

[Faux Newbie]

I beg to differ.

You don't learn everything from sparring but you won't finish learning the hip throw until you ditch the compliant drills.

I agree with YKW's basic point. You don't change up your game during full sparring against equals too much, and therefore have a very limited window to learn WHILE sparring, but much to learn from post session.

[YouKnowWho]

I beg to differ.

You don't learn everything from sparring but you won't finish learning the hip throw until you ditch the compliant drills.

If you define "learning" as "developing" + "testing", then I agree with you there.

You may learn what mistake that you have made in sparring but you may not learn how to fix it. For example, if you just move back from your opponent's punches, you may never learn how to move yourself to be outside of your opponent's striking path. Where will you be able to learn that? In your class of course.

[MightyB]

We had an evening sparring group back when I trained formally. It was no big deal. It's just sparring and yeah, sometimes guys got a little hurt.
After that happens, THEN we'd ask sifu for advice.
Later, sparring with others just became a matter of fact thing.

New learners tend to fight instead of spar and they also tend to carry a lot of ego.
That can be ironed out with repetition.

Jamieson for the win.

I try to spar all the time with my friends. Nobody gets hurt... too bad. Then again, we're adults. Like someone else posted - stay away from psychopaths.

[MightyB]

I generally follow the approach that, if I don't know someone enough that I don't know that I trust them to spar reasonably, then I don't spar them. There are so many boxers, bjj guys, taiji guys, etc. out there, that there's no reason I should feel any need to train with the douchiest of them, I'll opt for the coolest.

Sparring is about testing what I've entrained, imo, not the time to start entraining. And finding what else needs to be entrained. Not about testing whether I can defend myself. I train to make a tech effective before the sparring stage, I don't try to enter the sparring stage unsure on what the effect of the technique is, that's asking for trouble.

That said, if I choose training partners wisely, a moderator is not always important.

As for the other question, about habits, particular people will make sure to develop good habits, sloppy people won't, with or without a teacher. Good students can ask someone whose knowledge they respect, "I sparred the other day, while no teacher was around, and kept having this occur, what are your thoughts," and they learn, or they do their own research or thought on it. If someone needs a teacher to notice they get uppercutted a lot, they aren't sparring to learn, they aren't paying any attention, and until they do, sparring without someone to guide them is almost pointless, imo.

this post is worth repeating.

also- sparring is not fighting. Free sparring doesn't even have to be all that "free". You can use that time to perfect new moves and only new moves. For example - If you can throw anyone you want with a Sumi Gaeshi, then ban it the next time you spar so you are forced to develop something else. Or only allow left handed throws. Or strikes and locks only, no kicks. Etc.

[YouKnowWho]

also- sparring is not fighting. Free sparring doesn't even have to be all that "free". You can use that time to perfect new moves and only new moves. For example - If you can throw anyone you want with a Sumi Gaeshi, then ban it the next time you spar so you are forced to develop something else. Or only allow left handed throws. Or strikes and locks only, no kicks. Etc.

This is a very important point. The problem is if you have a good winning record, when you force yourself not to use your favor moves, your winning record will drop. If you try to maintain your winning record, you will not be able to develop any new skills.

Did someone say, "invest in your lose"? That's a good idea.

[Faux Newbie]

This is a very important point. The problem is if you have a good winning record, when you force yourself not to use your favor moves, your winning record will drop. If you try to maintain your winning record, you will not be able to develop any new skills.

Did someone say, "invest in your lose"? That's a good idea.

I live by that idea.

When I hurt my knee a few years back, I had to learn to transition weight in a very controlled way, and realized things I did that were bad for footwork. My footwork improved from this.

When my heavy bag broke, and I didn't want to put the money into replacing it with Christmas and all, I began working shadow boxing more and implementing new moves into it. On New Years Eve, I sparred with one of my best sparring partners, and he had to change his game against me because I had expanded my repertoire.

[MightyB]

This is a very important point. The problem is if you have a good winning record, when you force yourself not to use your favor moves, your winning record will drop. If you try to maintain your winning record, you will not be able to develop any new skills.


Sparring isn't fighting, and it isn't Shiai (competition). Sparring is a training element, and if you think it affects your win/loss ratio, then you have a serious ego and maturity problem and this misunderstanding about what you're trying to accomplish with sparring practice is where injuries and everything else that's been written about needing a third person to be a moderator becomes a factor.

[Faux Newbie]

sparring isn't fighting, and it isn't shiai (competition). Sparring is a training element, and if you think it affects your win/loss ratio, then you have a serious ego and maturity problem and this misunderstanding about what you're trying to accomplish with sparring practice is where injuries and everything else that's been written about needing a third person to be a moderator becomes a factor.

sacrilege! Destroy him!

[SimonM]

this post is worth repeating.

also- sparring is not fighting. Free sparring doesn't even have to be all that "free". You can use that time to perfect new moves and only new moves. For example - If you can throw anyone you want with a Sumi Gaeshi, then ban it the next time you spar so you are forced to develop something else. Or only allow left handed throws. Or strikes and locks only, no kicks. Etc.

MightyB touched on what I was getting at perfectly. Thank you.

[Faux Newbie]

Sparring isn't fighting, and it isn't Shiai (competition). Sparring is a training element, and if you think it affects your win/loss ratio, then you have a serious ego and maturity problem and this misunderstanding about what you're trying to accomplish with sparring practice is where injuries and everything else that's been written about needing a third person to be a moderator becomes a factor.

Yeah, and I'd go further to say that if people are sparring full on without a large amount of the sort of narrowed focus sparring you're talking about, they're wasting a lot of their own time.