What is internal training ?

[SPJ]

What would you consider as internal ?

It is always easy to describe external training.

It is not not easy to describe, teach or learn internal training.

How would you approach this common question in your practice or school ?

:rolleyes:

[Miqi]

'Internal' can only be approached as a dilaectical concept: i.e. it means different things, both within different contexts, and also to people with different leves of understanding. At its most advanced level, 'internal' means following the intuitive method. (This does not mean excluding the external method, i.e. following a coaching method, copying other people's movements etc.) This in itself is based on the advanced understanding that you already are a martial arts expert - your body already knows everything that it needs to know about your ultimate of expression Quan - it's just that your movement is retarded by habitual mistakes.

These discussions occur because of where people are at in the complexity pyramid of understanding. At the top of the complexity pyramid are very simple principles which have very deep and far reaching implications. One can hear the principle - such as the two I've just told you - and not 'get' them at all. In fact, they might even seem stupid, or the person who says them a twat for having said them. At the bottom of the compliexity pyramid is all the convoluted, complex BS that we're probably now going to hear about meridians, slow movement, translated terms, yadda yadda. Despite being really complex sounding, that stuff has no useful implications at all - it's just dead rubbish that has no active effect on improving knowledge. But it captures the lazy and the soul-less minions of ego.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fepjAJS2bs

[YouKnowWho]

To me, the TCMA can be as simple as "head meets fist/ground". If that's all you care about, the word "internal" will have no meaning to you.

http://imageshack.us/a/img198/6285/rjrl.jpg

http://imageshack.us/a/img715/1438/headhitground.png

[Dragonzbane76]

To me, the TCMA can be as simple as "head meets fist/ground". If that's all you care about, the word "internal" will have no meaning to you.
not a lot of room for two different sides in that sentence. I agree with YKW. Not much internal about punching someone in the face as hard as you can.

[Miqi]

Precisely what someone thinks 'internal' means will depend on precisely who they are, and precisely where they are on their training process. There are multiple possible interpretations of 'internal' - and this is not because it is a meaningless concept - it's because it has no ultimate meaning. What you see its meaning as will reflect what you're looking for out of your training.

It's funny that some people think that internal means 'slow movement' training. I guess I can understand that - people tend to divide things into binary divisions based on their current understanding, to try to make things make sense. Slow movement is just a training method - it's designed to do a few different things, but primarily to 'condition' the nervous system, so that the whole body becomes more interconnected - not physically 'more' interconnetced, but more interconnected in terms of the efficiency of the total system: mind to body, use of nervous pathways, liminal muscle recruitment. This has a lot of benefits. If you can do it right.

Scientifically, what is the right 'type' of slow movement can be argued out. Unfortunately, this means criticising some people who have misled others. This is incorrect, for example, as it shows no whole body internal connectivity whatsoever:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mTqEE65WjTs

[Neeros]

The cultivation of Mind, Energy, and Body.

Simple answer for a simple question. ;)

[Prairie]

It is nice to see a popular and oft argued question still alive and well.

I don't think it is possible to absolutely differentiate between external and internal training. Training calisthenics will no doubt train something internal. Persevere through painful stance train something internal too. Similarly, standing post exercises will no doubt train some muscles to some extent to be strong. The internal/external training divide is more like the taiji symbol. The training can't really be entirely one or the other.

This said, what is internal training? In my opinion , it is any training that directs the mind's attention inside the body. How to punch with the hand but really punch with the foot? Eventually, maybe, it is like Mr.Wang says and it is very pragmatic. External training will do the punch looking at the visible characteristics. Do the body mechanics look right to achieve power? Are the muscles properly strengthened for power? Internal training will focus on each segment of the body and feel how it relates to its neighbouring bits. Eventually all the segments can work together to achieve the same thing as the external training.

Which is better? I don't know. Whichever trains you best to punch the guy hard in the face or drop him on his head.

[MarathonTmatt]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=-5X5pBx8nUE

I would say "internal" is like cultivating a sense of caring for the body, making sure it stays limber, loose and well-oiled for great performance and health. then again, you could get the same sense of that from what someone may call an "external" exercise, which I would say is just "more dynamic". for instance I was just outside training for 2 hours- one thing I did was the qigong move "splitting heaven and earth" except I was in a low long-fist kneeling stance. then I picked up a large stone and held it up with my finger-tips, and with back straight, squatted back down into a kneeling stance and the arm that was holding the stone went up to repeat "splitting heaven and earth." I felt really great afterwards and this felt "internal" to me, while doing it in the middle of training, but I can see how someone would say "no, that's external" because it was more "dynamic" than splitting heaven and earth in a high horse stance with no props.

sometimes I will do a more gentle qigong work-out, like what is shown in the above video I posted- I guess it's a "variety is the spice of life" kind of classification. pretty cool stuff from the late GM Feng Zhi Qiang- esp. @ 14:25 he shakes his whole body w/ his dantien. one could argue that's a good example of an internal concept- using the dantien to unify the "8 gates" of the body and being able to co-ordinate that into one's movements/ techniques.

[Miqi]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=-5X5pBx8nUE

I would say "internal" is like cultivating a sense of caring for the body, making sure it stays limber, loose and well-oiled for great performance and health. then again, you could get the same sense of that from what someone may call an "external" exercise, which I would say is just "more dynamic". for instance I was just outside training for 2 hours- one thing I did was the qigong move "splitting heaven and earth" except I was in a low long-fist kneeling stance. then I picked up a large stone and held it up with my finger-tips, and with back straight, squatted back down into a kneeling stance and the arm that was holding the stone went up to repeat "splitting heaven and earth." I felt really great afterwards and this felt "internal" to me, while doing it in the middle of training, but I can see how someone would say "no, that's external" because it was more "dynamic" than splitting heaven and earth in a high horse stance with no props.

sometimes I will do a more gentle qigong work-out, like what is shown in the above video I posted- I guess it's a "variety is the spice of life" kind of classification. pretty cool stuff from the late GM Feng Zhi Qiang- esp. @ 14:25 he shakes his whole body w/ his dantien. one could argue that's a good example of an internal concept- using the dantien to unify the "8 gates" of the body and being able to co-ordinate that into one's movements/ techniques.

Yes but anyone could do all of that video, without any training whatsoever. It's just a man waving his arms about. It just goes to show how religious the belief in 'internal' matial arts is; i.e. there's actually nothing there other than what you choose to believe is there. Given the next man, who does precisely the same thing and looks precisely the same, but doesn't do any training, then you'll 'believe' that there's no internal there, just because it's only faith.

Here's probably one of the best examples of whole body interconnectivity on the net:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M3LOwaP8iig

My old coach used to say that while this stuff looks nicer, people like Chen ZhengLei have much more qi and 'internal' power on the inside, and that this was more important than beautiful external form. I don't know - I can't believe that myself, simply because I don't believe it. And as long as I have to 'believe', I don't see why I should. Make me accept it.

[MarathonTmatt]

Yes but anyone could do all of that video, without any training whatsoever. It's just a man waving his arms about. It just goes to show how religious the belief in 'internal' matial arts is; i.e. there's actually nothing there other than what you choose to believe is there. Given the next man, who does precisely the same thing and looks precisely the same, but doesn't do any training, then you'll 'believe' that there's no internal there, just because it's only faith.

Here's probably one of the best examples of whole body interconnectivity on the net:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M3LOwaP8iig

My old coach used to say that while this stuff looks nicer, people like Chen ZhengLei have much more qi and 'internal' power on the inside, and that this was more important than beautiful external form. I don't know - I can't believe that myself, simply because I don't believe it. And as long as I have to 'believe', I don't see why I should. Make me accept it.

I would argue that no, not everyone could do all of that video correctly, especially towards the end when he shakes his whole body the way he does. And he is not just "waving his hands about." All of his movements' source comes from his rotating and opening/ closing his dantien, kua, and sinking/rising with his legs, if you watch closely. Someone with no training could try to imitate it, and even get some benefits, but it would be poor, and anyone with any experience could see this.
Also like I just said, you need a keen eye (experience) to see if someone is doing these exercises correctly or not- it has nothing to do with "blind faith" and everything to do with sinking/rising, rotating the body, natural breathing, etc. And if you knew who Feng ZhiQiang was, (he was one of the five dragons of the Chen style, he was Chen Zhenglei's "brother") you wouldn't call him "just some man", he was one of Chen Fake's top disciples, and was dispatched to Chen village a long time ago by Chen Fake, where he instructed many of today's leading Chen style experts, even within the Chen family.
I liked your video by the way- the stances were flawless as was the movements.
If you are arguing for me to "make you accept it" all I can say is try to find a good Qigong teacher. Then you can learn these principles and you can incorporate this into your martial arts training. Silk Reeling from the Chen style is also good for this too.

(*Now that I re-read your post and listen to your words more carefully, I don't think you need me to tell you any of that. Yeah man, I don't know which is better either to be honest. I'm not trying to make a case for "this is better than this" like some people will. I think good Kung Fu is good Kung Fu, and as long as it is a legitimate system there are usually good training methods emphasized within the system. I can learn something from training Tai Chi, I can learn something from Long Fist, I can learn something from training in Xing Yi or Hung Gar, or from a Qigong set. It's up to each one of us who trains to take the training seriously and incorporate the teachings into our training.)

[Miqi]

I would argue that no, not everyone could do all of that video correctly, especially towards the end when he shakes his whole body the way he does. And he is not just "waving his hands about." All of his movements' source comes from his rotating and opening/ closing his dantien, kua, and sinking/rising with his legs, if you watch closely. Someone with no training could try to imitate it, and even get some benefits, but it would be poor, and anyone with any experience could see this.


Well, I don't agree. I think that there is a great deal of beleiving that those things are there, when in fact, it's just an old man waving his arms about. I don't believe in dantiens, except as a general and rather pointless term for one's umbillical area. Perhaps if I believed it, then I would see it.



Also like I just said, you need a keen eye (experience) to see if someone is doing these exercises correctly or not- it has nothing to do with "blind faith" and everything to do with sinking/rising, rotating the body, natural breathing, etc.


Well, that sounds a lot like what the con-artist tailors said in the story of the emperor's new clothes, don't you think?



And if you knew who Feng ZhiQiang was, (he was one of the five dragons of the Chen style, he was Chen Zhenglei's "brother") you wouldn't call him "just some man", he was one of Chen Fake's top disciples, and was dispatched to Chen village a long time ago by Chen Fake, where he instructed many of today's leading Chen style experts, even within the Chen family.


I know who he is.



I liked your video by the way- the stances were flawless as was the movements.
If you are arguing for me to "make you accept it" all I can say is try to find a good Qigong teacher. Then you can learn these principles and you can incorporate this into your martial arts training. Silk Reeling from the Chen style is also good for this too.


Ah well, that seems very unlikely.



(*Now that I re-read your post and listen to your words more carefully, I don't think you need me to tell you any of that. Yeah man, I don't know which is better either to be honest. I'm not trying to make a case for "this is better than this" like some people will. I think good Kung Fu is good Kung Fu, and as long as it is a legitimate system there are usually good training methods emphasized within the system. I can learn something from training Tai Chi, I can learn something from Long Fist, I can learn something from training in Xing Yi or Hung Gar, or from a Qigong set. It's up to each one of us who trains to take the training seriously and incorporate the teachings into our training.)

Well that's true.

[MarathonTmatt]

@ Miqi-

1)And like I already said- I don't understand what is to "believe" and "not believe". Have you ever had a Tui Na massage or Acupuncture? When we are talking about "dantiens", "kua's", etc. it is nothing more than medical terminology. Have you ever laid down and taken a power-nap or rest after training some qigong?- rest your hands over your abdomen and it is the best rest ever- Before my training I never slept so good, unless if I did something extreme like ride my bicycle 100 miles. If you think there is something one has to "believe" or "not believe" than you are a fool. Maybe you are lazy and do not train correctly.
I had a school teacher once from Morroco, he was Muslim, he said there are 2 kinds of talkers in the world- someone who talks in circles, they are more of a traditional mind-set, and then a more modern person who keeps it short and linear- they are more modern and want things down now, now, now....

2)Um... ? Listen, I don't want to name names here, but I have seen people train Kung Fu for a while who never trained, or never seriously trained, in Tai Chi or Qigong before and I have noticed they are "missing something" from their practice, such as.... they can't hold a one-legged posture for any extended length of time (even just a few seconds), they are lousy at re-directing an on-coming attack, their hips and spine are not "opened up" to deliver strong, powerful, or high kicks, etc. So like I already said, I'll train in Tai Chi, I'll train in Long Fist, I'll train Qigong sets, I'll go to the Xing Yi seminars the YMAA school in the other city is hosting, and I'll reap the benefits from what I sow.


3)Okay, then don't come down on other people if you don't want to train. I wouldn't under-estimate the health benefits that a "soft" qigong can help out with- strectching the spine, opening the hips, breathing deep, etc.


4)Good- we can agree on something- this is more or less "where I'm at" from my perspective.

[Miqi]

@ Miqi-

1)And like I already said- I don't understand what is to "believe" and "not believe". Have you ever had a Tui Na massage or Acupuncture? When we are talking about "dantiens", "kua's", etc. it is nothing more than medical terminology.

[Edit - even I'm not sure what I was going on about there]
MarathonTmatt,
I have one simple point. 'Quan' is a natural achievement. While it evoved via a specific cultural paradigm, the fact that it is ultimately natural means that none of that cultural paradigm - none of the words, names, or even most of the ideas - are really real/or quite as concrete and fixed as they seem. They're just attempts to help people unfold natural skill. While my skill level is low, and I haven't gone anywhere close to 'going past' the old masters, I have gone past the phase of needing the cultural paradigm. I hope that makes some sense to you, as I was impressed by your last words on finding things useful according to what we see or don't see.




Have you ever laid down and taken a power-nap or rest after training some qigong?- rest your hands over your abdomen and it is the best rest ever- Before my training I never slept so good, unless if I did something extreme like ride my bicycle 100 miles. If you think there is something one has to "believe" or "not believe" than you are a fool. Maybe you are lazy and do not train correctly.


I don't know, because I don't know what you would consider lazy. However, I do know that most people invest belief in inactive ideas because they feel, on some subconcious level, the need for them, to protect some daft sense of martial artist self-identity. Nothing, therefore, will seem more threatening than actual understanding - and the ego will panic, and attack it.



I had a school teacher once from Morroco, he was Muslim, he said there are 2 kinds of talkers in the world- someone who talks in circles, they are more of a traditional mind-set, and then a more modern person who keeps it short and linear- they are more modern and want things down now, now, now....


I'm that other kind of person - the person who wants to know. I mean, really wants to know. When you're that kind of person, you discover what it really means 'to eat bitter'. Thanks for the hard taste and reminder.




2)Um... ? Listen, I don't want to name names here, but I have seen people train Kung Fu for a while who never trained, or never seriously trained, in Tai Chi or Qigong before and I have noticed they are "missing something" from their practice, such as.... they can't hold a one-legged posture for any extended length of time

I don't consoder that to be a significant indication of skill. But there again, that's not what I want wushu for. I don't actually want it at all.





(even just a few seconds), they are lousy at re-directing an on-coming attack, their hips and spine are not "opened up" to deliver strong, powerful, or high kicks, etc.

Well that sounds like - almost - every taijiquan person in existence. However, meeting you could well be an eye-opener for me. Do you have a video of you performing some taiji?



So like I already said, I'll train in Tai Chi, I'll train in Long Fist, I'll train Qigong sets, I'll go to the Xing Yi seminars the YMAA school in the other city is hosting, and I'll reap the benefits from what I sow.

Well, do you see how you're sowing with me? And see how you sow precisely what you want to reap? You really, really don't want to get anything useful back. Anyway styles are just illusion, made up by men in their confusion. The same problem will be there in taiji as it is in longfist.



3)Okay, then don't come down on other people if you don't want to train. I wouldn't under-estimate the health benefits that a "soft" qigong can help out with- strectching the spine, opening the hips, breathing deep, etc.

I just call those things strectching the spine, opening the hips, breathing deep, etc. I don't see much benefit in calling them 'qigong', which really just means 'breathing exercises'.



4)Good- we can agree on something- this is more or less "where I'm at" from my perspective.

I know. How depressing. Eh? Heh...

[YouKnowWho]

2 questions here.

1. What's the difference between Taiji punch, XingYi punch, Bagua punch, longfist punch, praying punch, Baji punch?
2. If you have cross trained all those 6 systems, How will your punch in a life and death situation?

[SPJ]

2 questions here.

1. What's the difference between Taiji punch, XingYi punch, Bagua punch, longfist punch, praying punch, Baji punch?
2. If you have cross trained all those 6 systems, How will your punch in a life and death situation?

1. Can not resist to quote Bruce Lee

In the beginning, a punch is just a punch.

In the middle, a punch is more than just a punch.

In the end, a punch IS just a punch.

2. whatever you trained more, it will show.

Since I learned ba ji for kao and tong bei for strike.

Even though I also practice tai chi and ba gua.

I would say tai chi waist, and ba gua walk

but strike tong bei and kao ba ji for me.

:)

[YouKnowWho]

Some people just try to make thing unnecessary complicate.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KZdtM5p6ZkA

[MarathonTmatt]

@ Miqi-

Hey, yeah, what's funny is we will be talking in circles if we keep at this. I think we are actually expressing some of the same ideas. I agree with what you say about exercises un-locking people's natural skill, that's a good way to put it. I think I was trying to say the same thing by saying I didn't understand how someone could "believe" or "not believe" in exercise.

Also I do not have any videos of myself at the moment, I do not have the technology for it, personally.

And as I am someone who has trained under different teachers and systems what I was saying was, cross training can be beneficial, I know it has been to me.

Have a good day!

[Miqi]

@ Miqi-

Hey, yeah, what's funny is we will be talking in circles if we keep at this. I think we are actually expressing some of the same ideas. I agree with what you say about exercises un-locking people's natural skill, that's a good way to put it. I think I was trying to say the same thing by saying I didn't understand how someone could "believe" or "not believe" in exercise.

Also I do not have any videos of myself at the moment, I do not have the technology for it, personally.

And as I am someone who has trained under different teachers and systems what I was saying was, cross training can be beneficial, I know it has been to me.

Have a good day!

Hi MarathonTmatt,
People trap themselves in those circular arguments very deliberately. It's a sad fact, but very few people actually reach the point of wanting to escape them.

[Miqi]

Some people just try to make thing unnecessary complicate.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KZdtM5p6ZkA

In network theory, there is an idea that because groups and cultures tend towards a sclerotic acceptance of tradition and dogma, new ideas, new insights and progress, tend to come from temporary, chance or occasional encounters with external groups or people, who aren't captured in the sclerotic group-think. This weird thing some people seem to do in China of faking being moved back may be a cultural thing, but it just goes to highlight the great benefit of not being a part of that group-think. The difficulty is in knowing how much of the cultural frame to keep, because it actually is useful, or because there are no equivalent terms in your culture, and how much to abandon. My solution is usually to see things as principles, and then take them to higher levels of expression - for instance, respect doesn't have to be like this. It can be honest.