Lean or not lean

[YouKnowWho]

In the following pictures, you can see 1 and 2 have perfect body alignment that head, body, and back leg are all in a straight line. 3rd picture has different body alignment which is different from 1 and 2. People may say that 1 and 2 has forward lean but 3 has no lean.

Which body alignment do you like and why? Your though?

http://i1086.photobucket.com/albums/j445/xihaolong/compare.jpg (http://s1086.photobucket.com/user/xihaolong/media/compare.jpg.html)

[lkfmdc]

I would say first picture is "bad" in sense I can control his head because of it's position in relation to his hips and knees... but some tai chi guy will tell me this is daoist magic secret and he can blow me up at 20 yards with a QI ball

[YouKnowWho]

I would say first picture is "bad" in sense I can control his head because of it's position in relation to his hips and knees...

That's an interested angle to look at.

[lkfmdc]

That's an interested angle to look at.

so called "tai chi classic" says to keep the head erect... good wrestling, keep your head erect or I snap you down, in "friendly" folk style I just smash your face into the mat, not so "friendly" I neck crank you or choke you. On paper, classic seems to be telling you to do a good thing, but the pictures either don't follow the classic, or the classic is lying to us

[IronWeasel]

The first posture is leaning too far forward. One tug on his lead arm and he will fall on his face.

The second posture is how I would practice the throw application from this position.

The third posture is so balance neutral, that I could transition into a strike or throw as easily as the other.



It looks like he's in a clinch in posture three, also... ;)

[Pete]

erect... good wrestling, keep erect , I just smash you into the mat, I choke you. classic


how did that get past these filters?

second one looks the best to me... although i have no real reason :)

[YouKnowWho]

Here are more pictures to compare:

1. http://imageshack.us/a/img573/7109/necksurrounding.jpg

2. http://imageshack.us/a/img860/580/oldpic211.jpg

3. http://imageshack.us/a/img835/5628/j43t.jpg

4. http://imageshack.us/a/img440/6444/od0u.jpg

5. http://imageshack.us/a/img20/6280/8k26.jpg

6. http://imageshack.us/a/img23/8666/k6jq.jpg

7. http://imageshack.us/a/img690/9920/kd8w.jpg

[-N-]

Which body alignment do you like and why?

For what purpose?

[YouKnowWho]

For what purpose?
I'll say for the following purposes:

- health,
- art (pleasant to watch),
- combat application.

In the following clip, you can see that his head, body, back leg are in a perfect straight line.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ad6WTGEOS2o

If you want to spin, you can spin better if your body alignment is perfect.

http://imageshack.us/a/img844/939/ct70.jpg

http://imageshack.us/a/img543/1482/dgyp.jpg

If you want to have further reach, your body also will need to have perfect alignment.

http://imageshack.us/a/img811/3482/r0bq.jpg

[Jimbo]

The one I would personally prefer is the second photo. The first one looks very unstable, especially considering how narrow his stance is. It's way too vulnerable to being pulled or struck. The second position looks the most natural for a strike or throw, although I would prefer the right (rear) foot with the toes a bit more forward; his rear foot looks turned to the side or facing slightly to the rear. If this were during a strike or leg sweep/throw, that might make your balance/stability awkward, and affect your ability to generate force from your rear foot for a strike. I prefer the second position, but with the right foot facing more like that in the third photo.

[YouKnowWho]

I would prefer the right (rear) foot with the toes a bit more forward;...
I have problem with these postures too.

http://grauenwolf.files.wordpress.com/2013/12/image19.png

http://www.nei-gung.de/water_courses-Dateien/image005.jpg

[RenDaHai]

Of course this all depends on what you are doing. Are you striking or evading? grasping or throwing? Striking or blocking? Even within striking, are you striking forwards, twisting, hammering down, lifting up? Some require leaning, some require twisting etc. Every technique follows ShenFa instead of trying to fit into a preset stance.

In my experience, leaning is an absolutely essential skill and one should fill his form with it. When I spar I try to dodge a punch by an inch. In a brawl I dodge a punch by about 2 feet. Its not so much a conscious choice, it just happens. I have observed this in many others. When people are in real danger they make these larger movements. Leaning makes all the difference.

[Orion Paximus]

2nd picture is proper. Never lean past your own toes, never let your kneed go passed your toes. 3rd picture is fine doing taiji for health for old people and not wanting them to have sore knees the next day.

[SPJ]

1. Forward, rear, left, right and center.

The five steps described in the classics.

2. In solo practice, you consider your center line and balance of shifting weight only.

In 2 man drills or pushhand, you consider both your self and the opponent.

In a fight, the center line of balance shifts rapidly in your fighting context.

3. As pointed out, your strike, throw or seize balance lines are all different.

4. As pointed out, if you are not careful, your knees would hurt badly.

5. Neutralizing the opponent's power/hua jin and posture is a big consideration in Tai Chi.

Again the center line of balance would be different relative to the opponent's power and move, when you are neutralizng.

etc etc

:)

[-N-]

Which body alignment do you like and why?


For what purpose?


I'll say for the following purposes:

- health,
- art (pleasant to watch),
- combat application.


Of course this all depends on what you are doing.


Again the center line of balance would be different relative to the opponent's power and move, when you are neutralizng.

I should have said for what combat purpose. But RDH and SPJ have answered the question. SPJ also answered in the other thread. Depends on what you are trying to accomplish.

[YouKnowWho]

Never lean past your own toes, never let your kneed go passed your toes.

7994

In the above pictures 1, 2, 3, that your gravity center is still inside of your base. You apply force F to lean but the gravity P will pull your body back. This kind of "lean" will have no usage because the gravity P will be against the your force F. This kind of lean is "not over-committing".

In picture 4, 5 that you move your gravity center to be outside of your base. You apply force F to lean and the gravity P will help you to pull your body into that direction. Since now your force F can take advantage on the gravity P, this kind lean will be useful. This kind of lean is "over-committing".

When you have "over committed" your lean, you will need to know how to recover your balance back. Here is 1 example.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NP1SgVkMDj8

[YouKnowWho]

When you have "over committed" your lean, you will need to know how to recover your balance back. Here is another example.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wnz_CaeyKno

[-N-]

In the above pictures 1, 2, 3, that your gravity center is still inside of your base.

[...]

In picture 4, 5 that you move your gravity center to be outside of your base.

[...]

When you have "over committed" your lean, you will need to know how to recover your balance back.

If you are taking down the other guy, you are concerned with not just your own center of gravity, but the combined center of gravity of you and the other person which may or may not be outside your base.

Once you release, your own center of gravity may be outside your base.

In striking and throwing, Praying Mantis can use a jump to recover. We treat the mechanics as a dynamic system.

[-N-]

We treat the mechanics as a dynamic system.

You've described this before as using momentum. You can hit or throw while flying in.

Siu Ga Sik(Small Framework) form shows a takedown from a jumping in footwork.

[-N-]

Here are more pictures to compare:

1. 7996

7995

Another pic for you.

[-N-]

And don't forget...

7997

[YouKnowWho]

If you are taking down the other guy, you are concerned with not just your own center of gravity, but the combined center of gravity of you and the other person which may or may not be outside your base.

Once you release, your own center of gravity may be outside your base.

I like the way that you have described. The combination of 2 parties gravity center should be considered. In solo form training, since the word "opponent" has no meaning, it's difficult to look at gravity center from that angle.

[Dragonzbane76]

I'm guessing it would depend upon what you are doing and what your opponent is doing.

[Dragonzbane76]

7998

here is a question. does any of the traditional sides of TCMA have a sprawl posture? see if I can get this link to work.

[YouKnowWho]

7998

here is a question. does any of the traditional sides of TCMA have a sprawl posture? see if I can get this link to work.

The TCMA bow-arrow stance, horse stance, 4-6 stance, and empty stance can all be used for sprawl. It depends on

- how far that you may move your leading leg back,
- how much weight that you have shifted to your back leg, and
- what you are going to do from that position.

Here is one example.

7999

[lkfmdc]

The last movement in Lama Pai is generally thought of as a form of sprawl

8000

8001

[YouKnowWho]

If your opponent doesn't mind to drop his knee/knees right in front of you, that's his problem. When you use sprawl in TCMA, you are not suppose to touch your knee/knees on the ground. Old Chinese saying said, "What kind of hero will you call yourself if you just drop your knee/knees right in front of your opponent?" I assume this old Chinese saying is no longer in fashion in today's MMA world.

[lkfmdc]

You may not want to be on your knee or knees, you may not want to be on the ground, but maybe you dont have a choice


Here is some guys they say do Baji, lots of "wrestling" in this clip, and in like 3 minutes they BOTH fall down three times


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ubiNejzC07g

[SPJ]

http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=7994&d=1388431170

In tong bei, we actually practice leaning forward, rear, to the left and right as far as possible without falling of course.

We also step on toe or lean on heel to extend further.

One inch longer/further, one inch stronger.

:)

[Dragonzbane76]

"What kind of hero will you call yourself if you just drop your knee/knees right in front of your opponent?"

I'm not one for being a hero, I'm one for winning. I understand your statement though. My thoughts are, you never know what the circumstances are going to be in a confrontation, you might be blind sided and end up on your back for all you know, a sprawl might not be the answer for a certain situation but one should have knowledge of all area's of fighting (stand up, clinch, ground) in order to understand where you are and what to do. The reason I brought up the sprawl in the first place was because most, I say again most, TCMA do not have much answer for clinch or ground.

[-N-]

The reason I brought up the sprawl in the first place was because most, I say again most, TCMA do not have much answer for clinch or ground.

Kao Da.


http://youtu.be/47dn0P31BBw

You can throw afterwards.

[YouKnowWho]

The shoulder strike is a good set up. It can knock your opponent's leading leg into your hand.

[Dragonzbane76]

shoulder butt is a good defense. Liked video, but still its one dimensional. He did a lot of variations of tactic, but he didn't do any real "entanglement" clinch. If you set some kind of hooks in (over/under) its pretty hard to do a shoulder butt.

[SPJ]

Yes.

There is kao da.

There is also kao shuai.

Position, position. position.

Just like

Location, location, location.

:)

[RenDaHai]

As the others said, its usually called 'TieShenKao' (Stick--body--lean)

This covers clinching and a little more.

There are whole styles which are mainly TieShenKao. Its surprising its not more talked about actually. Perhaps it is because there is a general unfamiliarity in the west with the mainland styles.

ChangQuan----DuanDa---TieShenKao

[-N-]

As the others said, its usually called 'TieShenKao' (Stick--body--lean)

This covers clinching and a little more.

There are whole styles which are mainly TieShenKao. Its surprising its not more talked about actually. Perhaps it is because there is a general unfamiliarity in the west with the mainland styles.

ChangQuan----DuanDa---TieShenKao

Tie and Kao are the 11th and 12th principles of the Praying Mantis 12 principles.

[-N-]

He did a lot of variations of tactic, but he didn't do any real "entanglement" clinch. If you set some kind of hooks in (over/under) its pretty hard to do a shoulder butt.

The point is not to struggle clinch against clinch, force against force. If he tries to bring you in or control, you redirect and go in even more with Kao Da and or Kao Shuai.


Yes.

There is kao da.

There is also kao shuai.

Position, position. position.

Just like

Location, location, location.

:)

Yes, position and timing.


The shoulder strike is a good set up. It can knock your opponent's leading leg into your hand.

And body striking with Tie Kao gives you the body to body contact for takedown.

[-N-]

If you set some kind of hooks in (over/under) its pretty hard to do a shoulder butt.

Does not have to be with the shoulder. As he is setting up, you can go in with any/all part of the body to attack.

[Neeros]

Leaning is an important skill in double tiger claws, especially in the technique "hungry tiger catches goat." Keeping your opponent locked up so they can't get away.

[Dragonzbane76]

If he tries to bring you in or control, you redirect and go in even more with Kao Da and or Kao Shuai.


hey everyone to their own. It's not as easy as redirection in most cases. I'm not saying what you posted is not a legitimate maneuver only that you cannot dictate where a fight goes at all times.


Does not have to be with the shoulder. As he is setting up, you can go in with any/all part of the body to attack.

like I said it's pretty hard to do with entanglement types of clinch. and it's not easy to "redirect" someone once they have some hook set in.

[YouKnowWho]

like I said it's pretty hard to do with entanglement types of clinch. and it's not easy to "redirect" someone once they have some hook set in.

In Chinese wrestling, the only time that you use "shoulder strike" is if you can redirect one of your opponent's arms upward, and one of his arms downward. It's used during the "grip fight" and before the "clinch" and not after. When clinch is established such as underhook or overhook, shoulder strike will be difficult to apply.

[IronWeasel]

In Chinese wrestling, the only time that you use "shoulder strike" is if you can redirect one of your opponent's arms upward, and one of his arms downward. It's used during the "grip fight" and before the "clinch" and not after. When clinch is established such as underhook or overhook, shoulder strike will be difficult to apply.



I use it right at the end of an Arm Drag.

Bump them in the same direction, then apply Pulling.

Bump them back and apply a Leg Hook or Bite.

[YouKnowWho]

Does anybody know whether "shoulder strike" exist in Judo, western wrestling, or Aikido?


http://youtu.be/Mz8rkC0jBQU

[-N-]

Does anybody know whether "shoulder strike" exist in Judo, western wrestling, or Aikido?

Wow, I really don't care for the shoulder strike in that video.

Off balance, no leg control, no sink, and no core snap. Very different from TCMA way to do body strike.

Aiki Jitsu has kao da with hip in some of their takedowns.

[-N-]

I'm not saying what you posted is not a legitimate maneuver only that you cannot dictate where a fight goes at all times.

That can be said about any maneuver in any fight.


and it's not easy to "redirect" someone once they have some hook set in.


It's used during the "grip fight" and before the "clinch" and not after. When clinch is established such as underhook or overhook, shoulder strike will be difficult to apply.

That's what the training is all about. Skill and timing. Beating the other guy's intent.

[Dragonzbane76]

That's what the training is all about. Skill and timing. Beating the other guy's intent.

agree with this

[YouKnowWho]

Another opportunity to use "shoulder strike" is when your opponent uses "arm guiding".

[-N-]

Another opportunity to use "shoulder strike" is when your opponent uses "arm guiding".

Any video on arm guiding?

[IronWeasel]

Another opportunity to use "shoulder strike" is when your opponent uses "arm guiding".


Do oyu mean Leading Arm, as in right before a reap?

[YouKnowWho]

Any video on arm guiding?

Do you mean Leading Arm, as in right before a reap?
I personal don't like to train "If you do ..., I'll do ...". If my opponent never uses arm guiding on me then I'll never have chance to use my Kao. It's a bit too conservative approach for my taste. I like to train "I'll do this on you no matter you like it or not." I like to put my opponent in "defense" mode. I don't like my opponent to put me in "defense" mode. I assume I'm not training "self-defense" by some people's definition.

Here is an example that when your opponent applies "arm guiding" and try to enter your side door, you counter with "Kao (shoulder strike)". If he uses arm guiding and try to enter your front door, you can't use Kao on him since your elbow won't be pointing at him.

The interest question is "Since you can't use Kao to kill your opponent, what will you do after your Kao?"


http://youtu.be/Rw_kmMy0cG4

[-N-]

I personal don't like to train "If you do ..., I'll do ...". If my opponent never uses arm guiding on me then I'll never have chance to use my Kao. It's a bit too conservative approach for my taste. I like to train "I'll do this on you no matter you like it or not.

[...]

The interest question is "Since you can't use Kao to kill your opponent, what will you do after your Kao?"


Ok, that is no problem at all. You can attack to get cross hand control then kao from there. This is classic Praying Mantis, and I had one of my students working on this a couple weeks ago.

The benefit of doing it this way is that your attack momentum gives you a more powerful kao. Especially if you combine with "internal" short force. Also, your opponent may not expect you to go in so deep.

Combine the kao with leg control for takedown. Then kick him in the head afterwards.

Look in your forms. If your pi chuan, bung chuan, or ma bu tou xin chuan are deep enough, they become kao. How do you set up those strikes?

[-N-]

The interest question is "Since you can't use Kao to kill your opponent, what will you do after your Kao?"


Musashi said train your shoulder strike well and you can knock your opponent 10 or 20 feet away, and even kill him with it.

At least you can cut him after stunning him.

[SPJ]

I personal don't like to train "If you do ..., I'll do ...". If my opponent never uses arm guiding on me then I'll never have chance to use my Kao. It's a bit too conservative approach for my taste. I like to train "I'll do this on you no matter you like it or not." I like to put my opponent in "defense" mode. I don't like my opponent to put me in "defense" mode. I assume I'm not training "self-defense" by some people's definition.

Here is an example that when your opponent applies "arm guiding" and try to enter your side door, you counter with "Kao (shoulder strike)". If he uses arm guiding and try to enter your front door, you can't use Kao on him since your elbow won't be pointing at him.

The interest question is "Since you can't use Kao to kill your opponent, what will you do after your Kao?"


http://youtu.be/Rw_kmMy0cG4

I like a few things from the vid.

1. xi kao, your knee pressures the opponent's knee from behind.

2. the teacher explained that if the opponent is doing chan wan or entangle wrist/forearm, you follow and apply the shoulder, hip, and leg trap to kao.

This is similar to carrying the long spear posture or tuo qiang shi in Ba Ji.

The wrist, elbow and shoulder are called 3 guards/passes in the old time or san guan.

You lose the hand/wrist, you present your elbow.

You lose the elbow as in chan wan, you present the shoulder.

Of course, you present your hip/body and knee/leg at the same time.

That is the meaning of contact body/mountain kao or tie shen/shan kao in Ba Ji and Mantis.

etc etc

Cool vid.

That is.

:cool: