Did Wong sheung Leung lost a challenge match to a Chow Gar mantis practioner [Archive]

kung fu fighter

01-06-2014, 05:30 PM

Wong sheung Leung almost killed in a challenge match by Chow Gar mantis practioner
http://www.chowgar.freewebspace.com/wingchun.htm

"Chow Gar Mantis vs Wing Chun

Wong Shun Leung Visits Ip Sui's Kwoon

Before I begin this story, I want to make it clear that this is in no way intended to put Chow Gar Mantis up as superior to the Wing Chun system, and no offence is intended to any Wing Chun player. This is simply a legend related to me by my Sifu. This legend is, in a way, a tribute to the late Wing Chun Master, best known as Bruce Lee's Sifu in the early years. I say tribute because it depicts Sifu Leung in a situation where he found himself often. And on a personal note, my first ever Sifu, who taught me Wing Chun Chuan, trained under Sifu Wong Shun Leung in Australia for some time, so I suppose in a way he was my first SiGong.
Everyone who knows anything about Sifu Wong Shun Leung knows that he loved to fight. It was this fact that first brought him to the school of the late Wing Chun Grandmaster, Yip Man. On crossing hands with Yip Man, he very quickly realised that he was no match for the Grandmaster, and asked if he would take him as his student. It would appear that this 'fighting spirit' never really dwindled as Wong Shun Leung progressed in his training, as one day, he appeared at the school of Grandmaster Ip Sui...
He had come to cross hands with the Grandmaster, which is probably bordering on the disrespectful. Even so, you have to admire his spirit. Grandmaster Ip Sui, who was teaching a class at the time, turned down the request, but suggested a contest between the curious student, and one of his own students, Mr Choy Su Wing.
The Southern Mantis system is ideal for those with a long, slender physique, just like the characteristics of the mantis itself. It also places great emphasis on internal training's, to generate strength and power. Choy Su Wing is tall, but very powerful. Both students faced off, and Wong Shun Leung charged in.
In the blink of an eye, Mr Choy used the powerful 'Cum La' seizing hand technique, grabbing Wong Shun by the throat and the arm. From many years of training the Mantis Clawing technique his hands and arms were as solid as iron bars. Try as he might, and the story goes that he put up a hell of a fight, Wong Shun was unable to remove them. Mr Choy's arms were too long to enable Wong Shun to put a kick in - Mr Choy walked him into the corner by his throat, and held him there. At once, he released his arm and raised his hand to drop the devastating Gow Choi (Tiger comes down the mountain) hammer hand technique upon his head.
Gow choi is an extremely serious technique to use - Grandmaster Ip Sui, who had been watching this turn of events closely, moved quickly to Mr Choy's side, and as he brought his hand crashing down towards Wong Shun's head, Grandmaster slapped his arm across, so the technique missed the target.
Grandmaster broke up the session, telling Wong Shun Leung that he had seen what he had come to see, and that he should leave. Wong Shun Leung was quite lucky that day.
As an endnote, Grandmaster Ip Sui travelled to the school of Yip Man, to ask him why he had sent his student to his school to make trouble. Yip Man said that he had no involvement in this. Wong Shun Leung had made the decision to go to Ip Sui's school of his own accord...
Wong Shun Leung will always be remembered as a spirited fighter, and someone who believed in the merits of the Challenge Match. Not so much today, where, too often, Kung Fu is a game, a hobby, something to do in our spare time. We could all learn something from Sifu Leung. Kung Fu is also about having heart and the guts to put yourself on the spot.
Today, Sifu Choy Su Wing is in good health and living in Hong Kong, aged 72.
Wong Shun Leung.... 1935-1997 "

Frost

01-07-2014, 04:37 AM

First thought is, if he did get beat so easily I wonder why he didn’t change style, second thought is these stories always differ depending on which side of the style divide you are, Ip Sui told a story about defeating the Master of Southern dragon, the dragon guys talk about their founder having lots of challenge matches and always winning, I suppose all we can say with certainty is WSL was known to fight, Ip Sui’s school was known as a serious one who took challenges seriously, both had good reps and that’s about all we can say

LFJ

01-07-2014, 05:47 AM

Both students faced off, and Wong Shun Leung charged in.

Sounds opposite of fighting strategy he taught...

BPWT.

01-07-2014, 07:31 AM

Sounds opposite of fighting strategy he taught...

What was the strategy he advocated? I remember Duncan Leung writing that when he saw WSL fight, WSL almost always entered with a kick and then simply continued with a series of straight punches.

LFJ

01-07-2014, 07:58 AM

Well, however accurate the description, "faced off" and then "charged in" sounds a bit rash to be WSL.

"What I Have Learnt Through 'Beimo'" (http://www.wslwingchun.com/1995/what-i-have-learnt-through-beimo)

2. GIVING THE ENEMY THE OPPORTUNITY TO STRIKE FIRST

To win or lose a fight often depends on who watches for his chance to attack the enemy first when both sides are fighting. As Sun Zi said, “When an invading force crosses a river in its onward march, it is best to let half the army get across, and then deliver your attack.” You will reap twice the result with half the effort if the attack is launched with such favourable timing as the opponent’s intention, developments and movements can all be readily determined. Should this strategy be applied, the opponent will find it especially difficult to co-ordinate his body, making advance or retreat virtually impossible and the loss of the fight by him inevitable. A common error made by inexperienced Wing Chun practitioners is to throw their punches from too far away, leaving a lot of distance between their opponent and themselves. As one can see from the pictures fig.7, fig.8 and fig.9, such a clumsy and rash move gives the enemy the opportunity to attack first.

Therefore, when engaged in combat with an opponent, never be impatient. Do not launch an attack until there’s a distance of one step between you and your enemy, then launch a sudden attack so as to force the enemy to be caught totally unprepared. Launching a sudden attack in this way, one gains the advantage of an extra step towards the enemy, making it extremely difficult for him to react in time, the result normally being a feeble attempt to move half a step to the right or left, or else retreat straight backwards. This makes it very easy to remain in contact with the enemy, maintaining control of the situation by affecting the enemy’s balance and positioning. You therefore avoid giving him the chance to attack first and take away his opportunity to manage the situation.

Frost

01-07-2014, 08:56 AM

yep because "launch a sudden attack so as to force the enemy to be caught totally unprepared."
really doesnt sound like "charged in"......

k gledhill

01-07-2014, 09:05 AM

Being hit during a fight is not the issue, does it stop you from fighing ? WSL also mentioned this fact, if you think vt makes you untouchable you're in for a surprise. WSL mentioned being hit during fights and using it as a base to improve and avoid again. Gaun sao was put into slt after he was hit in the upper thigh during a fight. The Jum elbow not being low enough. After discussing with YM it was added. WSL fighting stance starts with parallel feet to avoid low leg kicks. He also fought mt and learned.

LFJ

01-07-2014, 09:34 AM

yep because "Do not launch an attack until there’s a distance of one step between you and your enemy, then launch a sudden attack so as to force the enemy to be caught totally unprepared."
really doesnt sound like "charged in"......

Fixed that for you...

JPinAZ

01-07-2014, 10:07 AM

Gaun sao was put into slt after he was hit in the upper thigh during a fight.

Gaun sau has always been in SNT. Ip Man lineage isn't the only lineage to have gaan sau as part of their form. Example: it's always been in HFY's SNT - long before WSL needed to use it in a fight. And HFY is seperate from Ip Man lineage and had nothing to do with WSL. So isn't it a safer guess that at some point gaan sau was taken OUT by Ip Man (or one of his teachers) prior to WSL's fight and then put back in later? But it's pretty silly to think a technique was added to SNT not too long ago simply because of one guy's fight he had. How do you explain it being in other non-Ip Man lineages SNT?

Besides all of that, are you saying that WSL WC practitioners use their hands below the waist to block kicks to the thigh? Doesn't that violate a few main WC principles, some being self-centerline and economy of motion, since you would have to bend forward to effective use techniques that low?

k gledhill

01-07-2014, 10:10 AM

Gaun sau has always been in SNT. Ip Man lineage isn't the only lineage to have gaan sau as part of their form. Example: it's always been in HFY's SNT - long before WSL needed to use it in a fight. And HFY is seperate from Ip Man lineage and had nothing to do with WSL. So isn't it a safer guess that at some point gaan sau was taken OUT by Ip Man (or one of his teachers) prior to WSL's fight and then put back in later? But it's pretty silly to think a technique was added to SNT not too long ago simply because of one guy's fight he had. How do you explain it being in other non-Ip Man lineages SNT?

Besides all of that, are you saying that WSL WC practitioners use their hands below the waist to block kicks to the thigh? Doesn't that violate a few main WC principles, some being self-centerline and economy of motion, since you would have to bend forward to effective use techniques that low?

Gaun sao was in Bil Gee then put into slt. What others have done ? Ironically the Jum sao disappeared from many slt for gaun sao , go figure.

JPinAZ

01-07-2014, 10:14 AM

Gaun sao was in Bil Gee then put into slt. What others have done ? Ironically the Jum sao disappeared from many slt for gaun sao , go figure.

Ok, so you're just talking about WSL lineage SNT then.

Still not sure how you are advocating using gaan sau to defend kicks below the waist and keeping with WC principles, specially at SNT level...

kung fu fighter

01-07-2014, 10:48 AM

it's always been in HFY's SNT - long before WSL needed to use it in a fight. And HFY is seperate from Ip Man lineage.
I am not going to touch this one, except to say gan sao was always part of William Cheung's TWC lol.

Gaun sao was put into slt after he was hit in the upper thigh during a fight. The Jum elbow not being low enough. After discussing with YM it was added.

Hey Kev, As far As I know the gan sao was in the SLT of Chan Wah Shun, due to him being a taller/bigger fighter, he generally fought shorter people. But later on Yip Man allegedly learnt from Leung Bik, whom was a smaller man like yip man, so yip man was more influenced by him and he had the jum sao instead of the gan sao in his SLT. So yip man knew both versions of SLT, Yip simply showed the other option to WSL after he got hit trying to block a low attack with jum sao.

WSL fighting stance starts with parallel feet to avoid low leg kicks.

Are you referring to the side stance with parallel feet?

He also fought mt and learned.
Can you tell us a little more about WSL experience with Muai Thai, when did he fight the Thai's, was it during the 1960's when yip man sent a team of wing chun fighters to fight against the thais?

And what specificly did he modified in the wing chun system to deal with fighting with muai thai fighters?

k gledhill

01-07-2014, 11:19 AM

Ok, so you're just talking about WSL lineage SNT then.

Still not sure how you are advocating using gaan sau to defend kicks below the waist and keeping with WC principles, specially at SNT level...

I never mentioned how " we " deal with kicks.

k gledhill

01-07-2014, 11:25 AM

I am not going to touch this one, except to say gan sao was always part of William Cheung's TWC lol.

Hey Kev, As far As I know the gan sao was in the SLT of Chan Wah Shun, due to him being a taller/bigger fighter, he generally fought shorter people. But later on Yip Man allegedly learnt from Leung Bik, whom was a smaller man like yip man, so yip man was more influenced by him and he had the jum sao instead of the gan sao in his SLT. So yip man knew both versions of SLT, Yip simply showed the other option to WSL after he got hit trying to block a low attack with jum sao.

Are you referring to the side stance with parallel feet?

Can you tell us a little more about WSL experience with Muai Thai, when did he fight the Thai's, was it during the 1960's when yip man sent a team of wing chun fighters to fight against the thais?

And what specificly did he modified in the wing chun system to deal with fighting with muai thai fighters?

Without Jum sao the system doesn't function. So gaun in slt, out of slt no bigge as long as its in the system.....Jum sao is most important and needs to be trained very early on. Why we do so much elbow work. Gaun sao elbow spreads out off the line and chases ; )

Yes side facing stances.

kung fu fighter

01-07-2014, 11:54 AM

He also fought mt and learned.

Can you tell us a little more about WSL experience with Muai Thai, when did he fight the Thai's, was it during the 1960's when yip man sent a team of wing chun fighters to fight against the thais?

And besides the use of side stances what specificly did he modified in the wing chun system to deal with fighting with muai thai fighters?

Kellen Bassette

01-07-2014, 12:19 PM

Can you tell us a little more about WSL experience with Muai Thai, when did he fight the Thai's, was it during the 1960's when yip man sent a team of wing chun fighters to fight against the thais?

And besides the use of side stances what specificly did he modified in the wing chun system to deal with fighting with muai thai fighters?

Hold up...are you talking about that time when 5 or so Kung Fu guys went to Thailand and all lost? The same story you see on tons of different pages, all second hand with no details and a picture of a Chinese dude getting kicked in the head by a Thai boxer?

They were sent by Yip Man?? Or is this different than those "famous" 1960's China/Thailand fights?

Do you got any actual details on this?

JPinAZ

01-07-2014, 02:05 PM

I never mentioned how " we " deal with kicks.

I never mentioned 'we', just questioning why you (or anyone) would advocate blocking anything that low with gaun sau.
But it's trange, becuase I thought you said this:

Gaun sao was put into slt after he was hit in the upper thigh during a fight. The Jum elbow not being low enough WSL fighting stance starts with parallel feet to avoid low leg kicks. He also fought mt and learned.

Wasn't this in reference to kicks? Or are you saying someone punched him in the thigh? So you're saying he added gaun sau to the form so he could defend PUNCHES below the waist?? Either way, using gaun sau to defend that low sounds like bad practice to me regardless the attack. Hopefully you can reclarify what you mean.

k gledhill

01-07-2014, 02:35 PM

I never mentioned 'we', just questioning why you (or anyone) would advocate blocking anything that low with gaun sau.
But it's trange, becuase I thought you said this:

Wasn't this in reference to kicks? Or are you saying someone punched him in the thigh? So you're saying he added gaun sau to the form so he could defend PUNCHES below the waist?? Either way, using gaun sau to defend that low sounds like bad practice to me regardless the attack. Hopefully you can reclarify what you mean.

We think differently so its a waste to discuss.

JPinAZ

01-07-2014, 03:17 PM

We think differently so its a waste to discuss.

Nice cop out - you don't know how I think, except maybe that I think it's silly to block low line attacks with your hands like you advocate here.

I tried to give you the chance to explain, but it's clear you aren't interested in backing up or explaining anything you say here. Anyway, thanks for playing (or not).

k gledhill

01-07-2014, 08:14 PM

Nice cop out - you don't know how I think, except maybe that I think it's silly to block low line attacks with your hands like you advocate here.

I tried to give you the chance to explain, but it's clear you aren't interested in backing up or explaining anything you say here. Anyway, thanks for playing (or not).

Your air of haughtiness is funny....you gave me a chance ...and I passed thanks.

LFJ

01-08-2014, 12:02 AM

BPWT.

01-08-2014, 01:13 AM

Unless of course Yip Man's judgement is not to be trusted.

This is kinda funny :), as on this forum some members from the WSL way of things have had a flexible attitude towards acccepting the words and actions of Yip Man, and the judgements he made. :roll eyes:

But regarding the 'WSL/Yip Man low strike story', the whole thing is a little strange, IMO. Why would WSL need to ask Yip Man this question.

WSL: "The Jum Sao didn't work."
YM: "So use Gan Sao."

Isn't it obvious?

If (as LFJ suggested) the circumstances were such that footwork/legwork was not appropriate, and Jum had failed because the strike was below the motion's range, why would WSL need YM to tell him Gan is the solution? It's not as though Gan Sao was a technique/motion that WSL had never seen before.

LFJ

01-08-2014, 01:25 AM

It's not as though Gan Sao was a technique/motion that WSL had never seen before.

Or it may have been. I think it was earlier in his learning of the system, before MYJ or BJ training.

LFJ

01-08-2014, 01:28 AM

This is kinda funny :), as on this forum some members from the WSL way of things have had a flexible attitude towards acccepting the words and actions of Yip Man, and the judgements he made.

Those he was purported to have made, that is...

BPWT.

01-08-2014, 02:58 AM

Those he was purported to have made, that is...

Well, if Yip Man gives an interview and says something... and then the interview is printed and Yip Man has no problem with it...

;)

Or it may have been. I think it was earlier in his learning of the system, before MYJ or BJ training.

I would guess so; but still it is odd that he would need to be told the solution. Who knows (rhetorical question)

BPWT.

01-08-2014, 03:46 AM

In our line, SNT opens with a double Tan, to double Gan motion, followed by Kwan Sao. So we have the Gan motion appearing very early.

Later in SNT, Leung Ting modified the section where other people use Gan - in that section, for us, it is Tan, Jum, Gwat.

LFJ

01-08-2014, 04:06 AM

I would guess so; but still it is odd that he would need to be told the solution. Who knows (rhetorical question)

I always thought the discussion was originally over doubts about the failure of jam-sau rather than WSL being unable to think and having to ask for the solution to the situation. It just led to Yip Man reconsidering having both options in SNT so students learned it early on.

k gledhill

01-08-2014, 07:15 AM

Not sure it was in the "upper thigh". I guess it depends on what kind of shape you're in, but I don't think a blind punch to the thigh would be that much of a bother. That's a big muscle.

The opponent was said to have fallen to one knee, covered his face with one arm and punched in desperation. I'm thinking that would have likely landed on the hip/lower abdomen.

In such a case, close range and sudden, trying to block it with his leg would probably have just caused him to get knocked over. Gaang-sau would have taken care of it.

In any case, it was discussed with Yip Man who gave the advice of using gaang-sau for the situation, so it must have been reasonably applicable there instead of using the leg. Unless of course Yip Man's judgement is not to be trusted.

The elbow can't pass below the transverse plane or pass across the centerline. WSL was not a tall guy either so the strike must have been lower than his elbow while he was in a fighting stance.... Low ; ) maybe the guy was trying to punch his groin ?
We also have huen sao aka sickle hand used with lowering forearm to the transverse plane, another mid level vt strike, gaun is below the plane and only blocks.

anerlich

01-08-2014, 03:04 PM

Did Wong sheung Leung lost a challenge match to a Chow Gar mantis practioner

I don't really care, but I would say:

Anyone who has never lost a match has been way too picky with his opponents. You learn more from losing than winning.

I am sceptical regarding the "deadly" Chow Gar techniques. Wing Chun is supposed to be "deadly" too according to some, but the number of corpses resulting from the fights we know about are surprisingly few. I do know of two prominent Australian WC practitioners who went it after the usual protracted run of mouth boxing after which one was hospitalised, but that's it. Don't bother asking who, it wasn't anyone from my lineage and almost certainly not yours either.

As for kung fu being a hobby, that's probably right. All the tough talkers should get back to us after they have had a few pro kickboxing and MMA matches. The opportunity is out there if you really want it.

Dragonzbane76

01-08-2014, 05:48 PM

I am sceptical regarding the "deadly" Chow Gar techniques

I know next to nothing about this style, but one person I met on here totally destroyed any chance for me to think anything above "idiot" when I picture it. I'm sure those whom remember his conversations would agree.

You learn more from losing than winning

agree

trubblman

01-08-2014, 07:15 PM

Wong sheung Leung almost killed in a challenge match by Chow Gar mantis practioner
http://www.chowgar.freewebspace.com/wingchun.htm

"Chow Gar Mantis vs Wing Chun

Wong Shun Leung Visits Ip Sui's Kwoon

Before I begin this story, ...
"

For some reason Chinese Martial Arts are full of these [unverifiable] stories...They are worth the paper they are printed on in my opinion.

BPWT.

01-09-2014, 01:04 AM

For some reason Chinese Martial Arts are full of these [unverifiable] stories...They are worth the paper they are printed on in my opinion.

Indeed :) I've never come across a traditional martial art (Chinese or otherwise) where people say their school/system has a history of meeting challenges... and lost 50% of them :D

It's rather like how every Chinese MA was created after a) someone saw two animals humping, b) a General well-versed in killing with nothing but his icy glare decided to create his own special system, c) someone secretly looked through a window, crack in a doorway, etc, and saw the 'secrets'.

The world has much to thank the Chinese for... fiction and tall stories included :D

Frost

01-09-2014, 01:12 AM

I know next to nothing about this style, but one person I met on here totally destroyed any chance for me to think anything above "idiot" when I picture it. I'm sure those whom remember his conversations would agree.

agree

i know who you are talking about but chow gar shouldnt be judged just on him lol
one of my class mates studied chow gar whilst at uni for a few years, they used motorcycle helmets to spar in to allow them to use those hammer fists without really hurting each other, they hit hard and didnt mind being hit, even now his power is very good
Not saying the style is deadly lol but it does have a fairly decent rep over here for actually sparring and fighting

sanjuro_ronin

01-09-2014, 07:26 AM

No such thing as a "deadly" MA or even a "deadly" technique.
Death maybe the result of a technique BUT you can kill someone with a punch ( more people have been killed by a "simple" punch than any other empty hand technique by the way) but no one calls a left hook "the deadly".

A MA is ONLY as good as how it is trained AND who is training in it.

IF WSL lost to a Chow Gar fighter than it was NOT WC losing to CG but simply WSL losing to whoever it was.

Eric_H

01-09-2014, 02:00 PM

IF WSL lost to a Chow Gar fighter than it was NOT WC losing to CG but simply WSL losing to whoever it was.

Get out of here with that realism - you'll break somebody's rice bowl!

k gledhill

01-09-2014, 03:51 PM

Anyone know of a good chow gar clip with this hammer fist ?

Vajramusti

01-09-2014, 06:16 PM

[QUOTE=trubblman;1259459]For some reason Chinese Martial Arts are full of these [unverifiable] stories...They are worth the paper they are printed on in my opinion

__________________________________________________ __________________________________

TRUE. Besides- both jum and gan are and have been parts of Ip Man's slt. Ho Kam Ming wasa student of Ip Man soon after WSL began but HKM learned directly from Ip Man- not from WSL.
And, gan has always been there as well as jum in HKM's slt... each in a specific place for a specific direction related reason.

kung fu fighter

01-09-2014, 07:10 PM

Anyone know of a good chow gar clip with this hammer fist ?

The downward hammer fist staring at 0:33 into this clip http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CmkQiHttjR4

I attended a Gary Lam Seminar a few years ago just to ask how he used his wing chun to fight Mui thai fighters, even though it wasn't the answer I was expecting, I respected him for his honesty. He Told me, inside the ring thaiboxing is king, but on the streets a wing chun fighter can beat a thai boxer. He also told me that when he fought with thaiboxers, he used thaiboxing himself. He said wing chun is good at medium range and thaiboxing is good at long distance.

Kev, Now I have a couple of questions for you:

1. Can you tell us a little more about WSL experience with Muai Thai, when did he fight the Thai's, was it during the 1960's when yip man sent a team of wing chun fighters to fight against the thais?

2. besides the use of side stances what specificly did he modified in the wing chun system to deal with fighting with muai thai fighters?

k gledhill

01-09-2014, 08:52 PM

The downward hammer fist staring at 0:33 into this clip http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CmkQiHttjR4

I attended a Gary Lam Seminar a few years ago just to ask how he used his wing chun to fight Mui thai fighters, even though it wasn't the answer I was expecting, I respected him for his honesty. He Told me, inside the ring thaiboxing is king, but on the streets a wing chun fighter can beat a thai boxer. He also told me that when he fought with thaiboxers, he used thaiboxing himself. He said wing chun is good at medium range and thaiboxing is good at long distance.

Kev, Now I have a couple of questions for you:

1. Can you tell us a little more about WSL experience with Muai Thai, when did he fight the Thai's, was it during the 1960's when yip man sent a team of wing chun fighters to fight against the thais?

2. besides the use of side stances what specificly did he modified in the wing chun system to deal with fighting with muai thai fighters?

Looks more like a biacth slap. Not too much info on vt fighters fighting Thais, side stance limits a lot of attacks on our lead leg.

k gledhill

01-09-2014, 09:02 PM

LFJ

01-09-2014, 09:45 PM

Joy can you point out Jum in this form ? http://youtu.be/foAAVQKvhtA

Uh oh. It seems to follow the same storyline that those who came before learned only the jam-sau, and those who came after learned the gaang-sau in its place. Not many kept them both, indeed.

Graham H

01-10-2014, 02:39 AM

Uh oh. It seems to follow the same storyline that those who came before learned only the jam-sau, and those who came after learned the gaang-sau in its place. Not many kept them both, indeed.

Mmmmm I can't really see the point in discussing the subject. As for the stories they are just that...stories.

Pretty pointless stuff IMO

LFJ

01-10-2014, 02:43 AM

True. It doesn't matter, as long as you have both in your system and make good use of them.

Graham H

01-10-2014, 02:51 AM

True. It doesn't matter, as long as you have both in your system and make good use of them.

There is no point in arguing what should be in the system and/or what shouldn't be. Yip Man and WSL are not here to ask.

Good Ving Tsun comes down to the person using it and one who is capable of applying logic to unarmed combat. It also needs a person that is capable of seeing through the BS. Unfortunately most Ving Tsun systems are full to the brim with BS but idiotic systems only attract idiots and fools will only follow other fools.

LFJ

01-10-2014, 07:04 AM

There is no point in arguing what should be in the system and/or what shouldn't be. Yip Man and WSL are not here to ask.

It comes through experience, just like the WSL gaang-sau story. Fact is, jam-sau is underused by many now who apparently rely on being spoon fed.

Graham H

01-10-2014, 07:35 AM

It comes through experience, just like the WSL gaang-sau story. Fact is, jam-sau is underused by many now who apparently rely on being spoon fed.

Jum Sau is a punch using the concept of Fook Sau to me but I appreciate that there are many other lineages that use it for other things and they all think they are right and others are wrong as well!! :D

sanjuro_ronin

01-10-2014, 12:52 PM

Anyone know of a good chow gar clip with this hammer fist ?

Sifu Paul Whitrod has a whole dvd on "specialty fists" like the PE fist, the hammer fist, the ginger fist and so forth.
Not bad at all.

Vajramusti

01-10-2014, 01:59 PM

Sifu Paul Whitrod has a whole dvd on "specialty fists" like the PE fist, the hammer fist, the ginger fist and so forth.
Not bad at all.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Authenticity of old war stories in internet forum chats can be problematic- so no comment on the chow gar story.

PE, Hammer and ginger fist are not unknown in wing chun and not imported from chow gar.
They are present seamlessly in the biu gee and the mok jong work that I learned.

kung fu fighter

01-10-2014, 02:01 PM

Vajramusti

01-10-2014, 03:48 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t9DGa23DZdg&list=PL704434EFE74EE168
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bktEcAMFey4

Here is the hammer fist known as Gao choi being practiced http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fS2IcqpZL1U
---------------------------------------------------

Yes but different engines in use and none of the bobbing and ducking needed in wing chun.

By the way there have been successful wing chun people in full contact against muay thai in the Ho Kam Ming line-
including Lam Fai ming who also became a full contact champion in Hong Kong.
..using wing chun.

kung fu fighter

01-10-2014, 04:32 PM

Yes but different engines in use and none of the bobbing and ducking needed in wing chun.
I agree! WCK use of elbow force power generation and snake engine are superior to SPM's engine in my opinion.

By the way there have been successful wing chun people in full contact against muay thai in the Ho Kam Ming line-
including Lam Fai ming who also became a full contact champion in Hong Kong.
..using wing chun.

To be Honest I was impressed with Lui Min Fai's use of elbow force and structure, but definately did not think much of his footwork starting at 7:08 into this clip http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HlZTsCikeJ4, he adopted sloppy boxing footwork instead of sticking to WCK footwork. I think the use of Footwork in WSL's linage is superior to Lui Min Fai's. However I respect him for getting in there with thais and winning some matches.

Does Tam Tam apply his WCK footwork similarly to Lui Min Fai?

Vajramusti

01-10-2014, 08:05 PM

I agree! WCK use of elbow force power generation and snake engine are superior to SPM's engine in my opinion.

To be Honest I was impressed with Lui Min Fai's use of elbow force and structure, but definately did not think much of his footwork starting at 7:08 into this clip http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HlZTsCikeJ4, he adopted sloppy boxing footwork instead of sticking to WCK footwork. I think the use of Footwork in WSL's linage is superior to Lui Min Fai's. However I respect him for getting in there with thais and winning some matches.

Does Tam Tam apply his WCK footwork similarly to Lui Min Fai?
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Lam Fai Ming was far superior. But Luis is just playing with a novice-it is not a match.

kung fu fighter

01-11-2014, 01:59 AM

Lam Fai Ming was far superior. But Luis is just playing with a novice-it is not a match.

Do you have any clips of Lam Fai Ming that you can post?

Frost

01-11-2014, 08:28 AM

Looks more like a biacth slap. Not too much info on vt fighters fighting Thais, side stance limits a lot of attacks on our lead leg.

fast forward to 3.05 in this clip, not quite a ***** slap lol

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QsovkA8fGJU

kung fu fighter

01-11-2014, 12:42 PM

fast forward to 3.05 in this clip, not quite a ***** slap lol

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QsovkA8fGJU

At 3.05 into this clip is a textbook example of how gao choi (hammer fist) is applied in SPM, and what the writer was discribing happend in the challenge match between WSL and the Chow Gar SPM fighter.

k gledhill

01-12-2014, 05:53 AM

At 3.05 into this clip is a textbook example of how gao choi (hammer fist) is applied in SPM, and what the writer was discribing happend in the challenge match between WSL and the Chow Gar SPM fighter.

Looks powerful. The same rumor factory said wsl beat 9 praying mantis guys in one month, maybe they didn't exchange notes ?

Frost

01-12-2014, 06:47 AM

Looks powerful. The same rumor factory said wsl beat 9 praying mantis guys in one month, maybe they didn't exchange notes ?

really out of what school were they from, who was there teacher, and what were the challangers names?
because this rumour did listed a school and a person who took part (so if anyone is inclined they could check i suppose) , only fair you do the same,

Sihing73

01-12-2014, 07:54 AM

I am sorry, but I just cannot seem to get into really caring about whether or not WSL got beat by a Chow Gar guy or not.
I don't think anyone would discount that WSL was a good, possibly great fighter. No one is unbeatable and it really is a numbers game. In other words if I have 100 fights and I lose ten of them then I am still at 90% and still impressive. Now if I had 100 fights and lost 90 of them it would be far less impressive. Based on the stories and the reputation of WC I would say that the former percentage is more likely than the later, but again does it matter?

Today we have too many who seem to want to ride the coattails of those who have proven themselves. If I studied with Sifu A then I must also be good because he won so many fights, etc. A great fighter is not always a good teacher, look to any sport and you can confirm this.

To me the important thing is whether or not the art you study meets your needs. If it does then that is all there is, as well as considering your motivation for training. If you want to present your way as a highly effective method of combat then you should be able to provide examples of your line in combat, not necessarily sport situations but street situation as well. And such examples should not be the vague references which are so often generated.

I am sorry but to me the important thing is whether what I do meets my needs, not whether or not Sifu A beat or was beaten some 50 years ago.

Just saying..............................

kung fu fighter

01-12-2014, 10:45 AM

Looks powerful. The same rumor factory said wsl beat 9 praying mantis guys in one month, maybe they didn't exchange notes ?

There is a huge difference between southern and northern Praying mantis, they are completely different styles. SO i don't disagree that WSL probably beat 9 praying mantis guys, WSL had an impressive challenge fight record, however the only times i heard he lost was against this chow Gar SPM guy, against another guy in Tiwan where he got hit with a low strike, and possibly in the 1960's when a wing chun team of 16 fighters went to challenge some thaiboxers and all lost. Losing 3 out of something like 60 fights is not so bad. He is still the best wing chun fighter whom proved himself in my opinion.

Vajramusti

01-12-2014, 11:00 AM

There is a huge difference between southern and northern Praying mantis, they are completely different styles. SO i don't disagree that WSL probably beat 9 praying mantis guys, WSL had an impressive challenge fight record, however the only times i heard he lost was against this chow Gar SPM guy, against another guy in Tiwan where he got hit with a low strike, and possibly in the 1960's when a wing chun team of 16 fighters went to challenge some thaiboxers and all lost. Losing 3 out of something like 60 fights is not so bad. He is still the best wing chun fighter whom proved himself in my opinion.
---------------------------------------------
WSL became the best known fighter in Ip Man's first generation of HK students.
Whether he was the best or most knowledgeable- are matters of opinion.
The wc/ muay thai students had a second round later- the wc guys did much better it seems.
But in the larger scheme of things what an individual can do is what matters.

sanjuro_ronin

01-13-2014, 06:10 AM

fast forward to 3.05 in this clip, not quite a ***** slap lol

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QsovkA8fGJU

Those sparring matches show some of the issues with "southern hand" systems, something the all of them tend to carry into fights and that is an over reliance on the opponent being of the same system.
That and they tend to always "lift" their chin too much.

Quote Originally Posted by kung fu fighter View Post
I agree! WCK use of elbow force power generation and snake engine are superior to SPM's engine in my opinion.

Having done both I can see that the WC method is NOT superior to the SPM method NOR is the SPM method superior to the WC method.
Two different methods of taking the same road that is all.
The WC method would NOT work within the WC framework and vice-versa.

kung fu fighter

01-13-2014, 10:39 AM

Those sparring matches show some of the issues with "southern hand" systems, something the all of them tend to carry into fights and that is an over reliance on the opponent being of the same system.
That and they tend to always "lift" their chin too much.

This can be said about most traditional Martial Arts lol, it's only those crazy souls like myself who dare to venture outside their style and comfort zone come to discover this. I am big on cross training with MMA fighters, but sticking to the concepts and principles of my Traditional CMA. That's why we need a Traditional Martial Arts MMA tournament like the first few UFC's. I like the Man up stand up competition, but that ring is horrible lol, they need more funding to get a safer octigon/cage to protect the fighters.

Having done both I can see that the WC method is NOT superior to the SPM method NOR is the SPM method superior to the WC method. Two different methods of taking the same road that is all.

There are different WCK power generation methods depending on linage, so I am assuming you're judging from Moy Yat's WCK Perspective.
Have you done any Jook Lum SPM?

The WC method would NOT work within the WC framework and vice-versa.

Not sure what you mean by this??

sanjuro_ronin

01-13-2014, 11:56 AM

This can be said about most traditional Martial Arts lol, it's only those crazy souls like myself who dare to venture outside their style and comfort zone come to discover this. I am big on cross training with MMA fighters, but sticking to the concepts and principles of my Traditional CMA. That's why we need a Traditional Martial Arts MMA tournament like the first few UFC's. I like the Man up stand up competition, but that ring is horrible lol, they need more funding to get a safer octigon/cage to protect the fighters.

There are different WCK power generation methods depending on linage, so I am assuming you're judging from Moy Yat's WCK Perspective.
Have you done any Jook Lum SPM?

Not sure what you mean by this??

Jook Lum from Macao was my lineage, though I have some experience in Chow Gar ( minor).
I am looking from the perspective of WCK in general VS SPM in general.

Many seem to THINK there are different methods of power generation, these people tend to confuse power generation with the expression of that power.
The human body is just that, regardless of the "engine".
That a group can give the way they do things a certain name, doesn't mean very much.
I have seen fajing ( as an example) in WC, in SPM, in Hung Kuen, in Chen and Yang Taiji, and even in western boxing, Karate and Judo.
They all tend to think they are doing something "unique", but they aren't, they are expressing it in a different way.

But if people want to believe they are doing something special and different and that is a "snake" engine or "crane" engine or "furry badger engine" then that is their view and that's fine.

Jimbo

01-13-2014, 12:14 PM

Jook Lum from Macao was my lineage, though I have some experience in Chow Gar ( minor).
I am looking from the perspective of WCK in general VS SPM in general.

Many seem to THINK there are different methods of power generation, these people tend to confuse power generation with the expression of that power.
The human body is just that, regardless of the "engine".
That a group can give the way they do things a certain name, doesn't mean very much.
I have seen fajing ( as an example) in WC, in SPM, in Hung Kuen, in Chen and Yang Taiji, and even in western boxing, Karate and Judo.
They all tend to think they are doing something "unique", but they aren't, they are expressing it in a different way.

But if people want to believe they are doing something special and different and that is a "snake" engine or "crane" engine or "furry badger engine" then that is their view and that's fine.

Agreed.

I've heard some people say that 'fajing' is only characteristic of certain styles...Chen Taiji, Xingyi, and Baji are some examples that are usually mentioned. But such power generation is present among practitioners of virtually every MA. CLF, N. Mantis, Bagua, WC, Hung Ga, the various Long Fist styles, boxing; even my first striking art teacher, who taught Kenpo, could 'fajing' with the best of them. Far more important than style of system is, can you apply it in action, as opposed to simply focusing the power into empty air?

As for a famous reputable fighter having lost or not, and if so, by what style, my answer is: I would be far more suspicious of a prolific fighter who has 'never' lost a fight in his life. Then the question becomes 'who did he fight', as opposed to 'what style did he beat (or lose to)'. Because styles don't beat people. They and experience (and circumstances) are the tools used by individuals to fight with.

YouKnowWho

01-13-2014, 12:45 PM

I have seen fajing ( as an example) in WC, in SPM, in Hung Kuen, in Chen and Yang Taiji, and even in western boxing, Karate and Judo.
They all tend to think they are doing something "unique", but they aren't, they are expressing it in a different way.

There are only long Jing and short Jing. There is no WC Jing, SPM Jing, Chen Taiji Jing, ...

The longfist system uses the long Jing. After you have knock a hole through your opponent's chest, your arm will keep moving until all your arm is on the other side your your opponent's body.

The Chen Taiji may use short Jing by just moving the waist a little bit, send out force, and then pull it back right way.

In the throwing art, the short Jing is used to set up. The long Jing is used to finish.