PBVT Sparring Clip [Archive] - Kung Fu Magazine Forums

Graham H

01-10-2014, 02:37 AM

it doesnt turn into a slap fest because there is no contact.
Its really nothing more than chi sao done at a non contact range, both parties are doing wing chun attacks and not making any contact, wing chun will always work in that situation, hell any art will work if both parties agree to use it and to not hit each other......but it will turn into a slap fest as soon as they actually start hitting each other and working against non wing chun attacks

Would you call this forward pressure, trying to hit each other and no slapping??

I check in from time to time Frost and all I ever see is you still slating Wing Chun but not offering anything to show how you would do it better. Nothing changes huh? :rolleyes:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nbI1Q1j-d80

LFJ

01-10-2014, 02:38 AM

it doesnt turn into a slap fest because there is no contact.

If they didn't pull the punches placed on the other's face, nothing would change in the exchange except that it would end sooner and they'd be injured.

Its really nothing more than chi sao done at a non contact range, both parties are doing wing chun attacks and not making any contact, wing chun will always work in that situation,

Well of course a VT fighter is going to fight using VT. I don't see them doing chi-sau though. :confused:

Frost

01-10-2014, 02:46 AM

Would you call this forward pressure, trying to hit each other and no slapping??

I check in from time to time Frost and all I ever see is you still slating Wing Chun but not offering anything to show how you would do it better. Nothing changes huh? :rolleyes:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nbI1Q1j-d80

honestly even with the gloves and head gear they were still pulling their punches but it was better than the first clip that's for sure

Graham H

01-10-2014, 02:54 AM

honestly even with the gloves and head gear they were still pulling their punches but it was better than the first clip that's for sure

If they didn't pull their punches then how can they train? Both of those guys can hit like a muel so why end things so quick? How can anybody improve anything by somebody getting flattened after 30 secs?

Maybe you should think of that.

These guys are not competing or fighting each other through anger.

Frost

01-10-2014, 02:56 AM

If they didn't pull the punches placed on the other's face, nothing would change in the exchange except that it would end sooner and they'd be injured.

Well of course a VT fighter is going to fight using VT. I don't see them doing chi-sau though. :confused:

a lot would change, as soon as the fear and possibility of real contact was there structure would fall apart, they would turn away from each other, shell up, fine motor control would go, their shots would become wider they would reach for the incoming shots to.stop them, and they would be more hesitent to more forward for fear of being hit and hurt, this is what always happens when contact is felt, and no they wouldn't drop and it wouldn't end sooner, but injury would happen unless they put on gloves and a mouth piece . Wing chun works fine again other people playing that game, as do most southern arts, its when you meet people not playing a centre line tactile game you get into trouble, so practise sparring against those people not other wing chun types, because thats who you will end up fighting in reality

Frost

01-10-2014, 03:04 AM

If they didn't pull their punches then how can they train? Both of those guys can hit like a muel so why end things so quick? How can anybody improve anything by somebody getting flattened after 30 secs?

Maybe you should think of that.

These guys are not competing or fighting each other through anger.

its not about hitting like a mule and you know that, its about being under enough pressure so you can test your structure, and im not saying you should do this all the time, but if you are putting on head gear and gloves, then make the.most out of it. It doesn't look like they are hitting hard to me, but it if they are and it is testing structure and ability under pressure then that's great

Graham H

01-10-2014, 03:14 AM

a lot would change, as soon as the fear and possibility of real contact was there structure would fall apart they would turn away from each other, shell up, fine motor control would go, their shots would become wider they would reach for the incoming shots to.stop them, and they would be more hesitent to more forward for fear of being hit and hurt, this is what always happens when contact is felt, and no they wouldn't drop and it wouldn't end sooner, but injury would happen unless they put on gloves and a mouth piece .

I agree with that but how can you know how they handle that from a video and why are you so convinced that their structure would fall apart? Maybe a crystal ball or something?

Wing chun works fine again other people playing that game, as do most southern arts, its when you meet people not playing a centre line tactile game you get into trouble, so practise sparring against those people not other wing chun types, because thats who you will end up fighting in reality

The center line tactile game? :confused: WTF is that? If you mean by driving up the middle and looking for arm contact then I agree but that's not how Ving Tsun works. Only in systems that have got it wrong. Going up the middle is dangerous unless the other guy has his arms down and looking for arm contact is a useless idea.

In reality? You mean street fighting?

I don't think your idea of Ving Tsun is correct Frost and that's maybe why your POV has been distorted.

Graham H

01-10-2014, 03:16 AM

its not about hitting like a mule and you know that, its about being under enough pressure so you can test your structure, and im not saying you should do this all the time, but if you are putting on head gear and gloves, then make the.most out of it. It doesn't look like they are hitting hard to me, but it if they are and it is testing structure and ability under pressure then that's great

So you are saying hitting hard is not structure testing? Are you mad? :eek:

These guys have power believe me and if they hit you then I would be surprised if you had time for anything else.

YouKnowWho

01-10-2014, 03:22 AM

If they didn't pull their punches then how can they train?

One training that I like is very simple. Your opponent just use left and right hay-makers that aiming at the side of your head with 50% power and full speed. You only use jab and cross and aiming your opponent's forehead or side of the face (not on the nose) also with 50% power and full speed. So you or your opponent may get hit a couple of times on the head. No big deal. It's just part of training.

It's so funny that there was a period of time that I didn't get hit on the face, my self-confidence went down because I didn't know whether I could still take a full shot on my head or not. If I constantly got hit on my head, my self-confidence was even higher.

When you think that any of your opponent's full power shot can knock you down, you will be nervous. When you have realized that it's not that easy for your opponent to knock you down, your will be much calmer and relax with self-confidence. So to get hit on the head is not all that bad as long as both you and your opponent are only using "50%" power. You can always increase that 50% to 60% or even higher after you and your opponent get used to it and have mutual trust on each other.

IMO, sparring with no contact is a bad idea.

Graham H

01-10-2014, 03:51 AM

One training that I like is very simple. Your opponent just use left and right hay-makers that aiming at the side of your head with 50% power and full speed. You only use jab and cross and aiming your opponent's forehead or side of the face (not on the nose) also with 50% power and full speed. So you or your opponent may get hit a couple of times on the head. No big deal. It's just part of training.

It's so funny that there was a period of time that I didn't get hit on the face, my self-confidence went down because I didn't know whether I could still take a full shot on my head or not. If I constantly got hit on my head, my self-confidence was even higher.

When you think that any of your opponent's full power shot can knock you down, you will be nervous. When you have realized that it's not that easy for your opponent to knock you down, your will be much calmer and relax with self-confidence. So to get hit on the head is not all that bad as long as both you and your opponent are only using "50%" power. You can always increase that 50% to 60% or even higher after you and your opponent get used to it and have mutual trust on each other.

IMO, sparring with no contact is a bad idea.

I agree apart from saying sparring with no contact is a bad idea. Once a student has progressed through chi sau/gwoh sau then becoming used to sparring has many facets. If we just throw ourselves in at the deep end all the mistakes come out like being apprehensive, too much unnecessary movements, retracting the hands etc etc. Being too nervous causes many problems so the learning curve has to be gradual like everything else in the system. Light sparring with minimal contact has its place until a point when we are competent of going all out.

Also fear of getting hit and being in close can lead to many mistakes. This problem is addressed right from day one.

YouKnowWho

01-10-2014, 03:58 AM

Graham H

01-10-2014, 04:38 AM

This is always the general problem for all "striking art" (not just for the WC system) and that is if you go full contact, people may get hurt, if you don't, it won't be realistic. I always prefer to start full contact on the body shot first. The head shot can be started with only 50% of the power.

Yes. I know Boxers use body sparring a lot.

For Ving Tsun we aim to achieve balance and suppleness in both arms. If both training partners have a good level of hand eye co-ordination and spatial awareness then you can go pretty hard at it without knocking teeth out.

Without being stood in front of somebody it's impossible to gauge what force is being used. In Ving Tsun years of hitting the wall bag, the dummy, using the long pole, knives, heavy bag and poon sau build a lot of structural force and striking power. I have not met many people that have this power in Ving Tsun but when they have it the initial shock of the action scatters the senses momentarily. Another big factor is timing. These things can't be acknowledged or felt from watching video.

Frost

01-10-2014, 05:18 AM

So you are saying hitting hard is not structure testing? Are you mad? :eek:

These guys have power believe me and if they hit you then I would be surprised if you had time for anything else.

hitting hard is one test of structure but keeping that structure under the pressure and fear of being hurt is another thing all together, and that's the reallyhard part which needs working on the most,
I'm sure they have great power can they keeep generating said power when someone is tryig to take their head off that's the question

Frost

01-10-2014, 05:23 AM

I agree with that but how can you know how they handle that from a video and why are you so convinced that their structure would fall apart? Maybe a crystal ball or something?

The center line tactile game? :confused: WTF is that? If you mean by driving up the middle and looking for arm contact then I agree but that's not how Ving Tsun works. Only in systems that have got it wrong. Going up the middle is dangerous unless the other guy has his arms down and looking for arm contact is a useless idea.

In reality? You mean street fighting?

I don't think your idea of Ving Tsun is correct Frost and that's maybe why your POV has been distorted.

no crystal ball but that is what happens to everyone the first time they really spar or fight, you can see it in peoples first full contact fight, they can look great in sparring, both technical and even hard sparring, but the first tome in the ring, cage or street with an opponent really looking to hurt them the above always happens and it starts to look like bad kick boxing, to get over this you need a lot of hard contact work, and the more unnatural the art is the more you need to work under this pressure to ingrain new habits

Graham H

01-10-2014, 05:45 AM

no crystal ball but that is what happens to everyone the first time they really spar or fight, you can see it in peoples first full contact fight, they can look great in sparring, both technical and even hard sparring, but the first tome in the ring, cage or street with an opponent really looking to hurt them the above always happens and it starts to look like bad kick boxing, to get over this you need a lot of hard contact work, and the more unnatural the art is the more you need to work under this pressure to ingrain new habits

I have no interest in such things and my sparring is just fine. Fortunately enough my street fights have gone in my favor. Really that's all that matters to me. Wing Chun in the cage or cross training or whatever.......................

For your average WC practitioner to think that he can walk from a WC school into a cage fight and expect to succeed is absurd. People would need to train like hell for such things.

There will be many competent fighters in the world that have never stepped in a ring or cage in their lives. I think the whole argument is stupid.

LFJ

01-10-2014, 06:41 AM

no crystal ball but that is what happens to everyone the first time they really spar or fight

Pretty sure you haven't met the guys in the video or know what experience they've had, so this doesn't justify your assertion that they would fall apart if it got more real. You can't say that based on just this clip. Judge what you see, not what you imagine.

BUT, compare them to the bald clown in this video below about halfway through. He might convince some inexperienced people of his skill by forms, chi-sau and whatnot, but even light free sparring literally! turns into a slap fest already.

This kind of thing happens in most wing chun. It's rare you see a sparring clip like the first two posted in this thread where the practitioners are maintaining structure and applying the principles of their system. It's already a head above the rest.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8x2Ay9BdLrE

Kellen Bassette

01-10-2014, 07:17 AM

k gledhill

01-10-2014, 07:46 AM

Would you call this forward pressure, trying to hit each other and no slapping??

I check in from time to time Frost and all I ever see is you still slating Wing Chun but not offering anything to show how you would do it better. Nothing changes huh? :rolleyes:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nbI1Q1j-d80

Good stuff ; ) MK is fast. The knife sparring will probably get the same criticism ; )

k gledhill

01-10-2014, 07:59 AM

This is my experience, and has been echoed by all the fighters I know.

Agreed, sadly there is a huge faction of guys who think chi sao is " combat " and have no bridge to actually using misguided hand chasing errors to function in striking, moving, random exchanges. Put them into a situation that doesn't start with two arms rolling and you get kickboxing hand bag waving.

Wayfaring

01-10-2014, 09:56 AM

Good stuff ; ) MK is fast. The knife sparring will probably get the same criticism ; )

They are moving with live energy. They are properly geared up at times showing they are acclimatizing to harder striking sparring. The knife sparring is properly geared with live movements.

You can kind of see the newer guy tense up on impact and lose vision and mobility. But that will change within a few months if they keep doing these types of sparring rounds.

Good enough criticism for you?

k gledhill

01-10-2014, 10:13 AM

They are moving with live energy. They are properly geared up at times showing they are acclimatizing to harder striking sparring. The knife sparring is properly geared with live movements.

You can kind of see the newer guy tense up on impact and lose vision and mobility. But that will change within a few months if they keep doing these types of sparring rounds.

Good enough criticism for you?

Never good enough, keep practicing Wayfaring and one day , who knows you may become a master critic.
One day you may make the perfect mindless critique ; )
Criticize hard my friend.

Wayfaring

01-10-2014, 10:14 AM

I have no interest in such things and my sparring is just fine. Fortunately enough my street fights have gone in my favor. Really that's all that matters to me. Wing Chun in the cage or cross training or whatever.......................

For your average WC practitioner to think that he can walk from a WC school into a cage fight and expect to succeed is absurd. People would need to train like hell for such things.

There will be many competent fighters in the world that have never stepped in a ring or cage in their lives. I think the whole argument is stupid.

Sparring a MMA fighter isn't like getting into a cage with a bear or anything. Is it true in the UK that the ammy fighters do open hand strikes to the head only? I mean really ALL Frost is talking about is getting acclimatized to harder contact. That basically is just one skill set or attribute only. Like yesterday I caught a knee to the mouth pretty hard grappling. It was hard but not concussion hard or injure something hard. Because of mma sparring conditioning my reaction was "whoa - got rocked pretty good there" as opposed to "I'm dying call the wambulance, and I lost all my technique too". Or revert to slap fighting or whatever.

Just go spar with some mma guys once in a while. It will not be that big of a deal after the first couple sessions.

Sean66

01-10-2014, 10:46 AM

MK knows what hard sparring is.
He's done plenty of it and plenty of it against people other than his students, i.e. people that really wanted to beat him.
And he has never "fallen apart" and started to do bad kick boxing.

He got a few broken ribs once from an MMA guy that stopped by for a friendly exchange, but not before he busted up the guys face....

My brother trains regularly with MMA professionals in Shanghai, where he lives.
Just talked to him today, and he told me he sparred last night against a young MT guy with six pro fights under his belt.
He then added that in comparison, MK is still the scariest person he has ever sparred against.

Frost

01-10-2014, 01:27 PM

Sparring a MMA fighter isn't like getting into a cage with a bear or anything. Is it true in the UK that the ammy fighters do open hand strikes to the head only? I mean really ALL Frost is talking about is getting acclimatized to harder contact. That basically is just one skill set or attribute only. Like yesterday I caught a knee to the mouth pretty hard grappling. It was hard but not concussion hard or injure something hard. Because of mma sparring conditioning my reaction was "whoa - got rocked pretty good there" as opposed to "I'm dying call the wambulance, and I lost all my technique too". Or revert to slap fighting or whatever.

Just go spar with some mma guys once in a while. It will not be that big of a deal after the first couple sessions.

in the UK AM MMA has a few different versions, never heard of the palm strikes only one though, there are no headshot comps, 8oz gloves with no headshots on the ground etc but no palm only as far as I have seen.

Graham H

01-11-2014, 12:48 AM

LFJ

01-11-2014, 03:27 AM

Yep, the timing, striking power, use of strategy, speed, spatial awareness all in top condition with that guy ;)

Agreed. From what I've seen of him, he's a perfect example of good VT in my opinion. He has the relentless attacking and overwhelming forward pressure thing down, made successful of course by the use of proper VT strategy.

Graham H

01-11-2014, 06:10 AM

Agreed. From what I've seen of him, he's a perfect example of good VT in my opinion. He has the relentless attacking and overwhelming forward pressure thing down, made successful of course by the use of proper VT strategy.

Correct :)

k gledhill

01-11-2014, 07:34 AM

Another clip of MK

http://youtu.be/mPNG19Mhg10

Paddington

01-12-2014, 04:04 PM

Would you call this forward pressure, trying to hit each other and no slapping??
[...]

I really enjoyed that video, particularly the brief segment with the knives. Thanks.

On the video posted in the opening post; do people not find that more traditional guard / starting position a bit weak? Specifically, with that back hand resting on the other arm I've found it to be easily exploited.

Sihing73

01-12-2014, 04:37 PM

Specifically, with that back hand resting on the other arm I've found it to be easily exploited.

Hello,

Not sure what lineage you trained in, I have trained in a few different lineages of Wing Chun.
In none of them was I taught to rest the back/rear hand on the other arm.
If you are referring to the Man Sau Wu Sau position there is a definite gap between the arms. The rear hand rests in line with the elbow of the front arm but does not touch or rest on it, at least not in how I was trained.

There are other arts which use a concept known as "double-hand" in which they will utilize both arms together with one being the support of the other. This is found in Silat and Kali to name a few and if trained properly they do not make it easy to exploit, IMHO.

EDIT: My apologies Paddington, I had not watched the video clip but upon viewing it I see what you are talking about. It does appear that the rear hand is kept very close to the front arm and there are spots where the rear hand actually touches the upper arm of the front arm. Not sure what that is all about, certainly not the way I was trained and I would think it would violate center-line as the rear hand would actually be off the mid line in order to touch the other arm.

LFJ

01-12-2014, 09:44 PM

He explains the guard in this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ODmA3MsS9kU

LFJ

01-12-2014, 09:56 PM

I would think it would violate center-line as the rear hand would actually be off the mid

This guard requires a particular fight strategy as a whole with tactical footwork, angling, striking methods, timing, etc. which differ in a lot of Wing Chun systems. The importance of centerline is to protect and dominate, not necessarily to be sitting on the line. It can still be taken from you. This guard facilitates that as explained in the video.

BPWT.

01-13-2014, 02:02 AM

He explains the guard in this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ODmA3MsS9kU

It's an interesting idea, cutting down the attacking options of the opponent and giving them a way in (comparatively unguarded), so you pretty much know where they will attack and you will "always on the right side" when you intercept. (Kali uses a similar idea, only it leaves the centerline open to try and suck you in)

But I actually prefer the method of keeping Wu Sau in the center. Maybe the downside to the method Bonafe is showing is that it limits your options. The opponent will also know that you only have one option (one side) to deal with their attack.

Paddington

01-13-2014, 02:04 AM

[...]

EDIT: My apologies Paddington, I had not watched the video clip but upon viewing it I see what you are talking about. [...]

No problem, I am used to being misread! FYI I trained through one of the Sifus taught by Ip Chun but currently I am training without a Sifu and attempting to practice the WSL system.

He explains the guard in this video:

Thanks for the video I am giving it a watch now.

Frost

01-13-2014, 03:04 AM

It's an interesting idea, cutting down the attacking options of the opponent and giving them a way in (comparatively unguarded), so you pretty much know where they will attack and you will "always on the right side" when you intercept. (Kali uses a similar idea, only it leaves the centerline open to try and suck you in)

But I actually prefer the method of keeping Wu Sau in the center. Maybe the downside to the method Bonafe is showing is that it limits your options. The opponent will also know that you only have one option (one side) to deal with their attack.

hung gar uses a similar idea, leaving an opening to try to draw the attack and the hakka arts begger hands also uses a similar approach leaving the centre apparently unguarded to draw the attack when you want it

kung fu fighter

01-13-2014, 10:44 AM

hung gar uses a similar idea, leaving an opening to try to draw the attack and the hakka arts begger hands also uses a similar approach leaving the centre apparently unguarded to draw the attack when you want it

So does SPM and Duncan Leung wing chun.

YouKnowWho

01-13-2014, 10:55 AM

it leaves the centerline open to try and suck you in ...
This principle has been used in many MA styles.

- A Kenpo guy would drop his arm straight downward, leave his head open. When his opponent punches at his face, he will use "ridge hand" to strike at the side of his opponent's head.
- A wrestler would expose his elbow. When his opponent tries to control it, he then use arm guiding to drag his arm to wherever he wants to.
- A longfist guy would leave his head open. When his opponent punches at his face, he will kick back at his opponent's belly.
- ...

JPinAZ

01-13-2014, 02:46 PM

This guard requires a particular fight strategy as a whole with tactical footwork, angling, striking methods, timing, etc. which differ in a lot of Wing Chun systems.

I get what he's saying and it's an interesting strategy. But, by by vacating center, this guard violates WC's basic bai jong & centerline principles, as well as moving away from WC's ideas of maximum efficiency (and also neutrality). Besides that, doesn't wing chun's 4 gate defense strategies with hands starting on center already cover what this guard is trying to solve?

The importance of centerline is to protect and dominate, not necessarily to be sitting on the line.

How can you have one without the other? Centerline theory doesn't do you much good if you ignore it :)
Again, WC's goals of maximum efficiency and economy of motion coupled with centerline theory typically dictate where the hands need to be.

GlennR

01-13-2014, 06:16 PM

This guard requires a particular fight strategy as a whole with tactical footwork, angling, striking methods, timing, etc. which differ in a lot of Wing Chun systems. The importance of centerline is to protect and dominate, not necessarily to be sitting on the line. It can still be taken from you. This guard facilitates that as explained in the video.

Its a fair strategy ,but there's also the trade off of having to attack from one side, its reasonably common boxing strategy

LFJ

01-13-2014, 08:54 PM

I get what he's saying and it's an interesting strategy. But, by by vacating center, this guard violates WC's basic bai jong & centerline principles,

Depends on how those are defined in who's WC.

as well as moving away from WC's ideas of maximum efficiency (and also neutrality). Besides that, doesn't wing chun's 4 gate defense strategies with hands starting on center already cover what this guard is trying to solve?

No? This guard reduces four gates to two. How is that moving away from maximum efficiency?

How can you have one without the other? Centerline theory doesn't do you much good if you ignore it :)
Again, WC's goals of maximum efficiency and economy of motion coupled with centerline theory typically dictate where the hands need to be.

It's not ignored, just apparently understood differently in different systems. As T_Ray alluded to above, it has to do with the strategy of the system as a whole.

LFJ

01-13-2014, 09:01 PM

Its a fair strategy ,but there's also the trade off of having to attack from one side, its reasonably common boxing strategy

Well, we don't just square off and start launching sideways attacks. Once in range, attack lines may change rapidly based on what the opponent presents.

GlennR

01-13-2014, 09:37 PM

Well, we don't just square off and start launching sideways attacks. Once in range, attack lines may change rapidly based on what the opponent presents.

Im only addressing his "one sided guard", if he starts one one side, as he states, he has to attack from one side.......... pro's v con's

LFJ

01-13-2014, 11:37 PM

Im only addressing his "one sided guard", if he starts one one side, as he states, he has to attack from one side.......... pro's v con's

The use of footwork makes it a lot more dynamic in application than it is explained to be as a seemingly static posture. As an initial guard it's an efficient means of intercepting the opponent and gaining superior position for 'entry' into striking range where the rest of the system functions and angles are dictated by the opponent's response.

When I first used it I did feel a bit awkward and exposed, but that was because I was used to something else. They always say VT is an unnatural way of fighting, but it effectively performs its intended function.

GlennR

01-14-2014, 12:22 AM

The use of footwork makes it a lot more dynamic in application than it is explained to be as a seemingly static posture. As an initial guard it's an efficient means of intercepting the opponent and gaining superior position for 'entry' into striking range where the rest of the system functions and angles are dictated by the opponent's response.

When I first used it I did feel a bit awkward and exposed, but that was because I was used to something else. They always say VT is an unnatural way of fighting, but it effectively performs its intended function.

Im not bagging it, far from it.

But, whilst it makes defense easier for the opponent, it does make the attack more predictable for the other guy.
Watch this.... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=81non05aKX4 ..... has somewhat similar tactics in regards to hand positioning and attack/defense outcomes

LFJ

01-14-2014, 01:15 AM

But, whilst it makes defense easier for the opponent, it does make the attack more predictable for the other guy.

It still depends on what the opponent does. Many times people will try to remove or otherwise deal with the lead hand first by coming on the outside of it. If you watch closely, it happened several times in the original post with different responses in each case.

Watch this.... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=81non05aKX4 ..... has somewhat similar tactics in regards to hand positioning and attack/defense outcomes

Seen you post it before. Interesting video.

k gledhill

01-15-2014, 03:51 PM

A good clip of speed
http://youtu.be/_DHNapIW-8Q

JPinAZ

01-15-2014, 05:47 PM

A good clip of speed
http://youtu.be/_DHNapIW-8Q

Showing a video of 'speed' while doing the same exact old bong lop drill for the 100th time has lost it's flair... about 90 times ago ;)

k gledhill

01-15-2014, 06:24 PM

Showing a video of 'speed' while doing the same exact old bong lop drill for the 100th time has lost it's flair... about 90 times ago ;)

To you maybe, I find it impressive. Until you face the power and speed relentlessly ..... It looks easy doesn't it ?

JPinAZ

01-16-2014, 02:03 PM

To you maybe, I find it impressive. Until you face the power and speed relentlessly ..... It looks easy doesn't it ?

Um, I don't even understand why you would ask me such a question.
Is this what you want to hear: "yes Kev, literally 100's of videos all showing the same bong lap looping drills are SOO impressive and difficult. I can't fathom how they are able to even do it... "
:rolleyes:

haha, ok, I'll stop poking fun. Happy drilling! :D

Wayfaring

01-16-2014, 02:55 PM

When I think of relentless power and speed my mind goes more to this kind of stuff rather than the bong lap drills:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vOXD7U1Kp1o

GlennR

01-16-2014, 04:46 PM

When I think of relentless power and speed my mind goes more to this kind of stuff rather than the bong lap drills:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vOXD7U1Kp1o

Ha! PB's Bong-lap drills would destroy those pretenders!!! ;)

JPinAZ

01-16-2014, 05:23 PM

Ha! PB's Bong-lap drills would destroy those pretenders!!! ;)

LOLOLOL... that was really funny. I read this at work and the guy sitting next me thinks I'm crazy just laughing at my screen.

Wayfaring, Gamboa is amazingly fast. The other guys all are too, but he really surprised me. I've only seen him fight once, need to watch out for him in the future!

k gledhill

01-16-2014, 05:54 PM

When I think of relentless power and speed my mind goes more to this kind of stuff rather than the bong lap drills:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vOXD7U1Kp1o

But that's boxing : ) as much as I like it , it's trading punches not intercepting.

k gledhill

01-16-2014, 06:04 PM

Ha! PB's Bong-lap drills would destroy those pretenders!!! ;)

You have no clue ; )

GlennR

01-16-2014, 06:28 PM

You have no clue ; )

And after your "trading punches" comment id suggest your stay with your bong-lap stuff............ obviously anything more complicated is beyond you

k gledhill

01-16-2014, 06:53 PM

And after your "trading punches" comment id suggest your stay with your bong-lap stuff............ obviously anything more complicated is beyond you

Glenn has spoken ! All bow to the great Glenn : ).

k gledhill

01-16-2014, 06:57 PM

The way of the intercepting fist wasn't devised by a guy like rocky balboa. Lmao

GlennR

01-16-2014, 10:11 PM

Glenn has spoken ! All bow to the great Glenn : ).

Finally..... some sense out of you

GlennR

01-17-2014, 03:53 PM

Philipp Bayer footage typically shows him training and teaching Poon Sao, Lap Sao, Chi Sao, hand drills (ie Pak and Jut drills), kicking drills and Goh Sao, usually with numerous variations and footwork..... Plus the occasional knife, pole and dummy drill.

Haters it seems, can only see "the same "bong lop" drill"... (Whatever that means)?

I enjoy watching these clips... Keep 'em coming! :)

Haters? The ultimate online barb you ruthless devil!

And youre right, who are we (all the non PB wcers) to have an opinion...........

Wayfaring

01-18-2014, 12:30 AM

But that's boxing : ) as much as I like it , it's trading punches not intercepting.

There's some trading, some intercepting, some evading, and some finishing. Yes it is a different style. But I'd love to see some of that kind of technical skill blended with the timing and athleticism seen there in WCK clips.

Wayfaring

01-18-2014, 12:42 AM

Haters it seems, can only see "the same "bong lop" drill"... (Whatever that means)?

I think it means that most of the semi-live drills look remarkably alike, regardless of the technique in the video label. To me it doesn't look full contact at all, except for once in a while someone gets blasted in the chest with a full contact shot. Most of the interaction looks like someone has mastered slap fighting. I get the feeling that unless you are being stopped consistently with hard shots, stuff like that would be easy to walk in on, jam, crowd, and take someone down as I've done it against non-critical strikes pretty consistently.

k gledhill

01-19-2014, 12:47 AM

I think it means that most of the semi-live drills look remarkably alike, regardless of the technique in the video label. To me it doesn't look full contact at all, except for once in a while someone gets blasted in the chest with a full contact shot. Most of the interaction looks like someone has mastered slap fighting. I get the feeling that unless you are being stopped consistently with hard shots, stuff like that would be easy to walk in on, jam, crowd, and take someone down as I've done it against non-critical strikes pretty consistently.

Everyone has a spectators opinion until they get hit and realize the short range punch of vt isn't a " slap fight " ; )
There is a lot of work done on the punch for this reason. It travels a shorter distance, has to deliver stopping power, ko force, etc, in a quarter of the distance most punches are thrown. Heavy bag work is done extensively, double end bag, wall bag....the kick too, heavy bag...all you " see " is the tip of the proverbial ice-berg in clips. Walking into an iceberg is more like it, you assume that all you see is not so much to " walk into " : ) then you get hit in the face and your black belt becomes a brown belt really quick, then another punch and hey presto you're a white belt ; )

Frost

01-19-2014, 05:21 AM

Everyone has a spectators opinion until they get hit and realize the short range punch of vt isn't a " slap fight " ; )
There is a lot of work done on the punch for this reason. It travels a shorter distance, has to deliver stopping power, ko force, etc, in a quarter of the distance most punches are thrown. Heavy bag work is done extensively, double end bag, wall bag....the kick too, heavy bag...all you " see " is the tip of the proverbial ice-berg in clips. Walking into an iceberg is more like it, you assume that all you see is not so much to " walk into " : ) then you get hit in the face and your black belt becomes a brown belt really quick, then another punch and hey presto you're a white belt ; )

out of interest where are the clips of all the bjj blackbelts being turned into whitebelts by PBs students...:)
Come to that where are all the clips of PBs students using their short range explosive power to knock people out....mmmm let me guess the cameras get turned of just as the endless drilling stops and the fighting against other styles starts ;)

Because lets be honest when we think of styles known for their knock.out power we automatically think of wing chun, and especially PB VT..oh wait a minute....

Wayfaring

01-19-2014, 01:10 PM

Everyone has a spectators opinion until they get hit and realize the short range punch of vt isn't a " slap fight " ; )
There is a lot of work done on the punch for this reason. It travels a shorter distance, has to deliver stopping power, ko force, etc, in a quarter of the distance most punches are thrown. Heavy bag work is done extensively, double end bag, wall bag....the kick too, heavy bag...all you " see " is the tip of the proverbial ice-berg in clips. Walking into an iceberg is more like it, you assume that all you see is not so much to " walk into " : ) then you get hit in the face and your black belt becomes a brown belt really quick, then another punch and hey presto you're a white belt ; )

Well the one punch I do see that is full force is the short range RH body strike. The strikes to the face I see in the clips really don't look like they have the capacity to turn a black belt into a brown belt, etc. or whatever mma vs. bjj quote that is you are semi paraphrasing. That is not a matter of an invisible iceberg, it is a matter of having the position, coil, and accuracy to be able to strike with power. If someone is doing, say, the karate chop to the neck I see in chi sau a lot, that strike doesn't have the power to incapacitate someone outside of maybe a lucky finger to the eyes or something (as an example). The RH punch to the body does have the power to incapacitate or stop hit or whatever.

But hey, I'm sure there's a yellow bamboo member out there somewhere who could knock me out with his breath with things completely invisible and non-observable.

Sean66

01-19-2014, 01:54 PM

Frost

01-19-2014, 02:23 PM

Michael KO'd me once with a strike to the face during sparring.
The fault was mine - ego got away from me and I tried my hardest to knock his block off with everything I had.
He ended it fast with one of those seemingly wimpy punches.

that's nice for you and really doesn't prove anything one way or the other, we call all tell stories of training partners who have superb power, god like reflexes etc but it still doesn't alter the fact there isn't a single clip of pbvt turning a bjj blackbelt into a white belt, or any clip of said awesome power knocking anyone out...
Not to mention the fact that all MMA or valetudo powershot knockouts look nothing like wing chun punches which does make one wonder why if the strike is so powerful and so good, no one else has stumbled across it...vitor belfort running attack is the obvious and only exception...and he only did that once and it was hardly wing chun like

Sean66

01-19-2014, 03:09 PM

k gledhill

01-19-2014, 09:12 PM

Well the one punch I do see that is full force is the short range RH body strike. The strikes to the face I see in the clips really don't look like they have the capacity to turn a black belt into a brown belt, etc. or whatever mma vs. bjj quote that is you are semi paraphrasing. That is not a matter of an invisible iceberg, it is a matter of having the position, coil, and accuracy to be able to strike with power. If someone is doing, say, the karate chop to the neck I see in chi sau a lot, that strike doesn't have the power to incapacitate someone outside of maybe a lucky finger to the eyes or something (as an example). The RH punch to the body does have the power to incapacitate or stop hit or whatever.

But hey, I'm sure there's a yellow bamboo member out there somewhere who could knock me out with his breath with things completely invisible and non-observable.

Your uninformed opinions of a guy you never met .....

anerlich

01-20-2014, 04:39 AM

Your uninformed opinions of a guy you never met .....

Seems like something you do a lot Kev.

Your black/brown/white belt quote was originally uttered by an MMA guy IIRC.

Nothing new here.

k gledhill

01-20-2014, 05:45 AM

Seems like something you do a lot Kev.

Your black/brown/white belt quote was originally uttered by an MMA guy IIRC.

Nothing new here.

Wow, so only an mma guy can hit hard : )

Frost

01-20-2014, 06:47 AM

Wow, so only an mma guy can hit hard : )

out of the two of you the MMA guy probably has actual proof he can hit hard and proof of doing so to a BJJ blackbelt :p

Frost

01-20-2014, 06:50 AM

I'm just sharing my experience, Frost.
And in my experience this particular punch does have "stopping power".
Considering that it only takes maybe 4 or 5 hundred pounds of force to knock someone out it's not surprising that this is the case.
Of course knocking someone out is dependent upon many factors - body mass and stature of the person being hit, their physical/mental state in the moment of being punched (i.e. tired, dehydrated, unaware, off balance, etc.).

I read somewhere that the average untrained punch can generate around 600 pounds of force (if you've read otherwise, please let me know, I realize that this is not exact).

So it's not hard to believe that someone who has trained intensively this one type of VT punch for the past 20 years could generate enough power to KO someone.

Anyway, I respect your opinion, Frost and just wanted to share mine.

fair enough Sean you have always shared your opinion well and backed it up when needed, i should not have aimed that at you sorry

And i do respect your view, my own experience is different, even though my current TCMA teachers first art was wing chun and he can hit hard with said punch, he can hit harder with other strikes for the arts he now prefers, and to be honest his power doenst come close to the pro MMA and THai guys i know

Wayfaring

01-20-2014, 09:46 AM

Michael KO'd me once with a strike to the face during sparring.
The fault was mine - ego got away from me and I tried my hardest to knock his block off with everything I had.
He ended it fast with one of those seemingly wimpy punches.

Just wanted to acknowledge this possibility. Yes you can get clipped in sparring right on the chin and be dazed with a punch that is not a full power shot. There are plenty of examples of this in fighting everywhere from the "invisible" Muhammed Ali punch, to Shane Carwin KO'ing Gabriel Gonzaga while moving backwards, to some of Anderson Silva's best finishes.

Sean66

01-20-2014, 09:50 AM

Wayfaring

01-20-2014, 10:05 AM

Your uninformed opinions of a guy you never met .....

Sure absolutely. However, that doesn't discount the points I am making.

What I'm starting to see is people excel at that which they are training for. For example, a MMA fighter starts to excel over time at what happens in a ring or cage. When what people are training for is one-off individual chi sau exchanges with other people, then that is the skillset that develops - skill in handling one-off individual chi sau exchanges.

This doesn't really translate to other areas necessarily. Self defense - really don't want to go there as in our modern world between legal barriers and cultural barriers avoidance and some form of a weapon are probably better options and it's too broad a topic to really get anywhere. Sporting - not much application - the chi sau competitions there are few and far between and not popular. Health - I don't know how that would increase health. So then people start comparing this to ring or cage fights, but it's not really what they are training for. Actually I think that is one of the problems. Lack of clarity of what people are training for.

All I'm trying to do is optimize my training so that I don't fall into repetitive cycling drills or unrealistic mobility or pressure. Trying to make it "real" as far as fighting skills. Those are the basis of my comments - could care less about people's bread bowls so I just tell it like I see it.

k gledhill

01-21-2014, 12:28 AM

Sure absolutely. However, that doesn't discount the points I am making.

What I'm starting to see is people excel at that which they are training for. For example, a MMA fighter starts to excel over time at what happens in a ring or cage. When what people are training for is one-off individual chi sau exchanges with other people, then that is the skillset that develops - skill in handling one-off individual chi sau exchanges.

This doesn't really translate to other areas necessarily. Self defense - really don't want to go there as in our modern world between legal barriers and cultural barriers avoidance and some form of a weapon are probably better options and it's too broad a topic to really get anywhere. Sporting - not much application - the chi sau competitions there are few and far between and not popular. Health - I don't know how that would increase health. So then people start comparing this to ring or cage fights, but it's not really what they are training for. Actually I think that is one of the problems. Lack of clarity of what people are training for.

All I'm trying to do is optimize my training so that I don't fall into repetitive cycling drills or unrealistic mobility or pressure. Trying to make it "real" as far as fighting skills. Those are the basis of my comments - could care less about people's bread bowls so I just tell it like I see it.

Until you ( try ) and stand toe toe with PB you will never know. Drills are just like pad work, speed ball, double end bag.....isolating qualities. Lap sao is a " heading " to describe a series of sub drills under one module. The emphasis is to be relaxed and repeat elbow alignment, timing, techniques with movement and a mutual goal, not full contact to ko a partner. It's not a sparring session. When I post a clip and it's a DRILL, aimed at speed of action reaction....then get posts like " it's slapping " you're ignorant . Ask a question with an open mind, don't make assumptions based on ignorance and prejudice.

Vajramusti

01-21-2014, 08:23 AM

No problem Frost, it's all good.
We're all passionate about what we do, and that's what counts :)

But I do agree with you, the VT vertical punch is not the most powerful punch that the body can deliver.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Are you speaking of your punch rather than every body's VT/WC punch?

JPinAZ

01-21-2014, 08:35 AM

It's not a sparring session. When I post a clip and it's a DRILL, aimed at speed of action reaction....then get posts like " it's slapping " you're ignorant . Ask a question with an open mind, don't make assumptions based on ignorance and prejudice.

Ok, if the clips here aren't of sparring, maybe someone should change the title of this and the many other threads like it, because they all look like the same'ol drill to me (and obviously from the comments - not just me).
And drilling's fine - as long as it doesn't start to get confused with, and labeled as, what's it's not.

Wayfaring

01-21-2014, 08:43 AM

Until you ( try ) and stand toe toe with PB you will never know. Drills are just like pad work, speed ball, double end bag.....isolating qualities. Lap sao is a " heading " to describe a series of sub drills under one module. The emphasis is to be relaxed and repeat elbow alignment, timing, techniques with movement and a mutual goal, not full contact to ko a partner. It's not a sparring session. When I post a clip and it's a DRILL, aimed at speed of action reaction....then get posts like " it's slapping " you're ignorant . Ask a question with an open mind, don't make assumptions based on ignorance and prejudice.

Listen I only got drawn into this argument because one of your more ardent PB fanboi types started the whole "haters" BS because someone brought up a valid talking point that may involve a touch of critique of PB.

My first response was to clarify the criticism. The criticism is that pretty much ALL clips look like this. So whether all you guys want to admit this or not, the ONLY thing we see pretty much is those drills. We never see a sparring session posted up. Now we can speculate why this is all day I suppose, and people can call me ignorant because I haven't seen a sparring clip of PB as there are none up only these drills. OK. Put one up so I'm not so ignorant. I may not have the chance to visit PB, and even if I did I'd be polite and respectful and not be trying to duplicate a Boztepe incident regardless of what I could or could not do. So what other way is there to evaluate?

I tend to evaluate things more according to Occam's Razor, where the hypothesis with the fewest assumptions is preferred. As such, the conclusion I would draw is that the reason there are a plethora of videos up on YouTube surrounding these types of drills is because that is the activity that is the major focus of all the training sessions and seminars where PB is and people are taking video. As such, sparring is probably not the major focus of activity when PB is around. And, I'm making the Cap'n Obvious observation that what people focus on is what they get good at over time. Drills, or sparring/fighting. And if someone posts a title that says "PBVT Sparring Clip" what conclusions about the content should I draw? That it contains drills? All right, fine. From now on every time a member of PBVT uses the word "sparring" all of us on the board will know for you guys that means not fighting sparring but drilling.

You call all this prejudice and ignorance. I call it common sense.

Wayfaring

01-21-2014, 10:37 AM

..what? "ardent fanboi"? Complete with hip boi spelling? ... Really?
No. I answered honestly and not because someone "brought up a valid talking point". I simply pointed out the variety of drills usually seen in the clips that others seem to reduce to "just the same bong lop drill"
Your following reply actually cleared it up for me when you said it wasnt full contact and what you thought you could do against it.......I realised you dont seem to understand (or appreciate) the purpose and function of these training drills, and are judging them as if they were fighting and/or full contact sparring.

What are you on about here? I agree with you regarding the lack of variety in the drills. And I am wrongly judging them as if they are fighting or full contact sparring? The nerve of me to think they would be sparring in a thread with the title "PBVT Sparring Clip".

To me, its like looking at a boxer on a speed ball and saying "That's rubbish I could just kick him in the nut"s"
Its a training drill that is being judged out of context.

Oh, we're doing analogies now? OK. To me its like seeing a clip with one guy doing speed bag drills the other one kicking him in the nuts, and a third videoing it, posting it, and labeling it "Sparring Clips".

BPWT.

01-21-2014, 11:19 AM

I suppose the problem is that the thread, and the title on the video itself (the original video clip), says 'sparring' - and for most people this is not what most people would call sparring.

Not sure what to call it, to be honest - maybe.. Unchoreographed One-Step Workout? For the most part that original clip features one person getting in with a strike, and then the two of them re-set. I don't see anything wrong with this as a training method, by the by, as a method mixed in with other training methods. Perhaps it might be said that this is a PBVT pre-sparring exercise?

To be honest, I train methods similar to this too - and I think it has value.

The original poster, LFJ, said himself "Granted it is controlled and not continuous."

But LFJ also said something that I wouldn't agree with. He said: "The good thing about it though, is that it doesn't fall apart and turn into slap fighting when it comes away from the chi-sau environment, like so many others."

Well, I agree that it doesn't become an uncontrolled mess, as things often do, but this is precisely because it is One-Step (or rather One Hit), and the person who gets through doesn't continue and try to dominate the exchange with further hits, but resets and they start again. Under those circumstances there's no reason for things to fall apart.

Also, I'd disagree that this original clip is of two people exchanging when they've come away from the Chi Sau environment. For me, they were in the Chi Sao environment (there was plenty of controlling bridge work/bridge contact) during the clip, it just didn't start from the Poon Sao environment. So what I'm seeing in that clip is similar to what we'd call Lat Sao - starting the process from non-contact.

JPinAZ

01-21-2014, 11:22 AM

What are you on about here? I agree with you regarding the lack of variety in the drills. And I am wrongly judging them as if they are fighting or full contact sparring? The nerve of me to think they would be sparring in a thread with the title "PBVT Sparring Clip".

You're not the only one thinking this way. The guys here posting and defending the clips and saying they aren't sparring, all the while it's supposed to be a 'sparring clip' thread..

Oh, we're doing analogies now? OK. To me its like seeing a clip with one guy doing speed bag drills the other one kicking him in the nuts, and a third videoing it, posting it, and labeling it "Sparring Clips".

LOL!!! :eek:

Wayfaring

01-21-2014, 05:31 PM

What are you in about?. I'm saying there is a great variety in the drills :) ...Its just some people can't see that and reduce what they see to "bong lop".

And other people see that there are a great variety of techniques involved, but the exact same application in fighting scenario. Some can't see that.

Regardless of the thread title, you surely must know that my comments refer to the (non-sparring) clips that are labeled as "just bong lop" ?

I know that you are obsessing over one phrase of one poster and not getting the point of what he was saying.

Frost

01-22-2014, 03:52 AM

it doesnt turn into a slap fest because there is no contact.
Its really nothing more than chi sao done at a non contact range, both parties are doing wing chun attacks and not making any contact, wing chun will always work in that situation, hell any art will work if both parties agree to use it and to not hit each other......but it will turn into a slap fest as soon as they actually start hitting each other and working against non wing chun attacks

The above is from page 1, and I stand bynit and agree with wayfrangs comments, we hear all about the hard sparring and contact, about turning bjj blackbelts into whites with super hard strikes, yet all we see is drills and non contact semi sparring, what's more likely that the cameras just get turned off when this happens, or that this type of drilling is what the vast majority of their time is spent on??

Graham H

01-22-2014, 03:58 AM

all we hear all about the hard sparring and contact, about turning bjj blackbelts into whites with super hard strikes, yet all we see is drills and non contact semi sparring, what's more likely that the cameras just get turned off when this happens, or that this type of drilling is what the vast majority of their time is spent on??

Funnily enough that is the only truthful statement you have written for a while Frost. If you were to look further than your mobile phone, tablet or PC screen you may actually come to realize that one day. :p

anerlich

01-26-2014, 03:20 PM

Wow, so only an mma guy can hit hard : )

No, but unlike yourself they can come up with original quips.

k gledhill

01-27-2014, 12:23 AM

No, but unlike yourself they can come up with original quips.

My quipping is irrelevant, my punch will speak for itself.:cool:

Wayfaring

01-27-2014, 03:10 PM

My quipping is irrelevant, my punch will speak for itself.:cool:

mine doesn't. maybe amongst my training partners. but beyond that I have serious doubts about how many people it is I'm actually going to punch. like for example i'm not going to punch someone for being wrong on the internet. :D

YouKnowWho

01-27-2014, 05:46 PM

Last Saturday (2 days ago), In The 4th Annual "Lone Star" Championship January 24-26 in Houston, Tx, I was helping to judge WC sticky hands (or WC sparring) the 1st time in my life. When the chief judge announced the rules that

- It's not a competition. Ego attitude is not allowed.
- Only straight punches are allowed. Uppercut and hook (or haymaker) are not allowed.
- Every strikes "should not" touch on any part of your opponent's body.
- Both arms should remain contact with your opponent's arms. You can't dis-connect it.
- No kicks are allowed.
- You should always stand in WC stance and should not stand in forward backward stance.

I then realized that the WC sticky hand training (not sure I should call it WC sparring) is far from "full contact".

LFJ

01-27-2014, 05:56 PM

That sounds pretty stupid.

YouKnowWho

01-27-2014, 07:02 PM

That sounds pretty stupid.

At the end of each sparring, the main judge would asked individual judges to give comments. When it was my term to give comment, I didn't know what to say.

If both of your arms are touching on your opponent's arms, when your opponent intends to punch you, you can sense it from the arm contact. It's very easy to redirect your opponent's force in the early stage (just like the clinch). The problem is in reality, your arms just won't be able to touch on your opponent's arm for so long. May be this is why the hook punch is not allowed. Your arm will be dis-connected from your opponent's arm right away. I also don't understand why kicking is not allowed.

What I don't understand is the main judge had said that this is not a competition. But individual judges had to count who could hit the other guy more and gave winner to him. How can you try to win but not allowed to have ego attitude.

Graham H

01-28-2014, 01:05 AM

That sounds pretty stupid.

I agree. More fabricated system nonsense. :eek:

k gledhill

01-28-2014, 06:08 AM

Graham H

01-28-2014, 06:45 AM

The problem is in reality, your arms just won't be able to touch on your opponent's arm for so long.

Absolutely true but unfortunately the basis for most of today's Wing Chun. This idea simply doesn't work and is illogical for fighting. Anybody with an ounce of sense or experience will know that.

When people protest that this IS the idea of Wing Chun (to stick to arms) then they are either stupid or inexperienced. Fact!

Wayfaring

01-28-2014, 10:35 AM

At the end of each sparring, the main judge would asked individual judges to give comments. When it was my term to give comment, I didn't know what to say.

If both of your arms are touching on your opponent's arms, when your opponent intends to punch you, you can sense it from the arm contact. It's very easy to redirect your opponent's force in the early stage (just like the clinch). The problem is in reality, your arms just won't be able to touch on your opponent's arm for so long. May be this is why the hook punch is not allowed. Your arm will be dis-connected from your opponent's arm right away. I also don't understand why kicking is not allowed.

What I don't understand is the main judge had said that this is not a competition. But individual judges had to count who could hit the other guy more and gave winner to him. How can you try to win and but not allowed to have ego attitude.

to me the appeal of a sporting event, regardless of the sport, is to see competitors go against one another in a realistic fashion. the more the rules interfere with what observers would consider "a realistic fashion", the less observers can relate and the less they are attracted to the sport.

chi sau IMO has NEVER reached a format that accomplishes that for a sport. either the rule restrictions or the action itself is non-realistic enough that observers can't relate, thus it is not popular.