Environmental Protection

[Syn7]

I've been posting stories like this in random threads where they kind of apply. We see them a lot in the China threads, but I figured I would just make a thread and put them all in here. We can argue about global warming, corporate manipulation etc etc and the "Living in a material world" thread can go back to being more about science than politics. In this one we can cover the crossover. Bring the science and then bash it over the heads of the scientifically illiterate who choose to include political rhetoric in their arguments. :p

Anywhooo...


http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/01/11/us-usa-westvirginia-spill-idUSBREA0902T20140111

Why isn't this a bigger story?

And also... "Freedom Industries"... WTF?

[Kellen Bassette]

If any big coverage does come, it probably will be from outside West Virginia. There's way too much support for coal, mountain-top removal and fracking in W.V. for them to be making much of a stink over poisoned drinking water.

[SoCo KungFu]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/01/23/freedom-industries-second-chemical_n_4648010.html

[GoldenBrain]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/01/23/freedom-industries-second-chemical_n_4648010.html

***Sad face***

This is just terrible!

8052

[GoldenBrain]

I'm not sure how valid this is because I'm not familiar with the source, and I couldn't find it in the mainstream news. Anybody up there in North Dakota know what's really going on?


http://www.www.alternet.org/radioactive-waste-dumped-oil-companies-seeping-out-ground-north-dakota


After oil companies and state executives in North Dakota hid the news from the public that nearly 300 oil spills occured between 2011 and 2013, radioactive toxic sludge is brimming back up to the surface, bubbling forth from the ground and mixing with fresh water across the state.

[Syn7]

I don't have a source to quote, but I think I heard that some of the chemical(s) was found upstream in, I believe, Ohio.

[Raipizo]

I don't have a source to quote, but I think I heard that some of the chemical(s) was found upstream in, I believe, Ohio.

Might be the power plant leaking that you're thinking of.

[Syn7]

Not sure. I just heard it in passing. Something about the same chemical found upstream. It piqued my interest, but I never looked into it. I'll look around to see if I can find anything about it when I get a chance. But like I said, it could just be bull****. If true, I would be interested more in the how than the what, knowhutimsayin?

[SoCo KungFu]

Ohio is all sorts of screwed right now. We have river contamination from the crap in WV that's reached at least Cincinnati. And yes, the nuclear plant had been leaking.

http://www.cleveland.com/open/index.ssf/2014/01/perry_nuclear_power_plant_is_l.html

[Syn7]

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2014/02/06/82000-tons-of-coal-sludge-spilling-for-days-into-nc-river-threatens-virginia-drinking-water/

I guess it was only a matter of time before Duke came up.

[SoCo KungFu]

http://www.motherjones.com/environment/2014/03/marijuana-weed-pot-farming-environmental-impacts

Pot heads are becoming as annoying to me as climate denialists and anti-vaxxers. Actually, a lot of anti-medicine, anti-pharm nutbags in general are raging burnouts that neither know the first thing about environmentalism nor medicine...

This article hits on trespass growing. But really, indoor grows are also very destructive in terms of energy demand to keep the conditions right for grows. MJ is just another product that selfish idiots will devour to the detriment of everyone else, ecologically.

[Syn7]

My dad grows a handful of plants along side the tomatoes every year. The yield pretty much lasts us the whole year. Doesn't really take up much energy or space. All the water is collected rainwater. Sun is free energy and the soil is maintained organically with compost waste. Do I get a pass? :p

[Syn7]

Anyways, that's what happens when you force an industry into the hands of criminals, deadbeats and overall selfish douchebags. There are similar issues with moonshiners. The big difference being scale. Legalize it, regulate it and move on. It will be no more or less destructive than any other crop that is managed properly.

Also, if you want to get down to it, the amount of energy used and pollution resulting from importing non native fruits and veggies is quite large.

But I agree, it's sad that *******s do what they do to what belongs to all of us. I spend a lot of time in the bush(well, not lately) and it ****es me right off when I see the mess people leave behind. So unnecessary.

[SoCo KungFu]

Its not just about criminals. Indoor grows are quite environmentally costly as they are finding out in Colorado. Commercial growing requires a high energy input for indoor grows through artificial light and climate control. Further, its year round. Its incorrect to simply pass this off as a result of prohibition. Greenhouses are better, outdoor cultivation is best.


Also, if you want to get down to it, the amount of energy used and pollution resulting from importing non native fruits and veggies is quite large.

Tu quoque. Further, both practices should be mitigated. But pointing the finger at big ag doesn't dismiss the fault of industrial pot growers. And while we're at it, Cannabis is a non-native plant in the new world.

But what chaps me the most is that there is a large proportion of these people that are as illiterate as any other group of extremists that simply refuse to acknowledge hard evidence to these facts, and simply pass off more conspiracy theories on the gov't and academics suppressing their "miracle plant."


Do I get a pass?
I'm ranting primarily about large scale plots with intent to distribute. Particularly trespass grows and indoor grows. Trespass grows for obvious reasons. Indoor grows have huge carbon footprints. You can produce 18 pints of beer for roughly the same energy cost of one joint. Given the growing energy demands and emission issues, I think its pretty irresponsible to allow such for a largely recreational plant.

[Syn7]

Yeah, to be honest I feel that way about a lot of things. Things we do that really serves no purpose. I have no problem with responsible use of intoxicants among adults, but I also don't separate them from the larger issues regarding sustainability. It's on my mind a lot lately. Walking down the food aisle, gas station etc etc. I think about the true price we pay for a lot of the things I love. I can't tell you exactly what kind of damage is caused by manufacturing, for example, transistors, but it can't be good. In a lot of ways I'm torn between wanting to regress and wanting to progress faster and more efficiently. Realistically, I know the latter is the only option that has a chance. People aren't going to change fast enough, we just need to make it easier for them to transition. In that respect, I love what I do. I honestly believe that while many professions keep this whole thing of ours from crashing into the ground, it's the scientists and the engineers that truly will make the difference here.


While I can't, and won't, ignore my own contributions to the state of this planet, I have put a ton of effort into reducing what I leave behind. I live in a kinda 4-plex type place and I see the amount of trash produced by those around me and I feel like so many just aren't even trying. Each tosses more trash in a week than I do in two months(not counting compost, I probably outpace them all in that one). Still, I feel like I don't do enough and it bothers me that most people don't even really care unless there is a direct sudden consequence for them personally. Too many distractions for people. Too much choice IMO. It's just not a good look or an easy fix.

And I'm sure you know, but I wasn't calling you a hypocrite specifically. I think we are all hypocrites. And I make no excuses for douchebags who spike power lines to sell drugs or make a mess in the bush. But I do think that you could lump any crop that isn't essential into the same category. If you produce and ship outdoor weed on a large scale, it's not that different from something like mangos or whatever. We consume a ton of stuff we don't need. I haven't looked into it, but I am willing to bet that only a small minority of the eneregy used to get these products to our homes is from the actual growing.

[GoldenBrain]

There's a lot of discussion on this topic lately. You make some good points SoCo, and I think the discussion is relevant as the country moves forward to end cannabis prohibition. However, I also think many of these issues stemming from large scale outdoor gorilla grows and indoor grows will disappear once it's regulated and available for the average person to cultivate out in the garden. When the criminals are pushed out of this industry we might even be able to hike in our national forests again without running into shady cartel growers.

Here's what bothers me. Nobody ever talks about how much of a resource hog our lawns are.

Lawns are the largest irrigated crop in the U.S., using approx. 50% of our residential fresh water resources. Lawn care uses over 3 million tons of fertilizer annually. Something like 3 million dollars is spent annually on lawn care pesticides. I'm betting our honey bees would like the pesticide use to be reduced, I know I would. About a billion gallons of gas are burned annually to mow these lawns with approx. 20 million gallons spilled in the process of refilling mowers.

If people were really concerned about the environment then I would think there would be a push to replace lawns with sustainable gardens. The same people who are ****ing and moaning about the affects of the cannabis industry will go out and mow their lawns this week and next week...etc. without once thinking of how it affects the environment. I'm trying to do my part in this area by setting up our property to run goats and in our immediate yard area I will move from a lawn tractor to a reel mower. I admit that I'm guilty of using a lot of fuel for mowing right now, but that will change as I get things under control. I don't water the lawn except when I put out seed, and I never use pesticides or herbicides that could damage the environment.

[Syn7]

Dude. I can't stand maintaining a lawn. I have no desire to go roll around in it, play in it. It just sits there and does sweet **** all but suck water and take up my time, lol. If I want to go play, there are plenty of good park spaces where I live. But unless you have kids or are playing some sport, why would I go to the park when I live around mountains! :D

If it was my call, my lawn would not exist. And the worst part is that out of four homes that share it, only two of us seem to be keeping it up. It's **** grass too. It's weedy and has at least 3 different kinds of grass and this time of year it grows like 6 inches in 4 days. Not evenly either, cause as I said, it's all mixed up. Annoying. I like uniformity, so that drives me nuts. I would love to pull it out. Or let it go native. But no, that wouldn't be aesthetically pleasing.

Ok... rant over.:)

[Syn7]

I think a lot of people aren't thinking it through when they say they want to end prohibition as if that will make everything shiny and happy. While I am for legalization, I don't kid myself about some of the challenges we'll all have to face because of it. I see it as a civil rights issue. It's that libertarian streak in my. The one that is quite often at odds with the progressive in me. I went through some of these issues in the garden thread.

I'm also under no illusions as to the damage I cause to myself when I consume. I know a lot of people who lie to themselves.

[GoldenBrain]

Hahaha! I hear you Syn. My wife wants barefoot grass so I oblige. Otherwise I'm like you and would let it go native. The only problem with park grass is all the pesticides and herbicides they use to keep it up. I have never heard of a city adopting an all organic policy towards their park lawn maintenance. That's something most people don't think about when they let their little ones roll around on that grass. Bermuda is pretty cool though. It doesn't need much water so for Texas it's a good choice, and if it's kept up with it pushes out most of the weeds. Still, lawns in general are a pain in the ass.

[Kellen Bassette]

Here's what bothers me. Nobody ever talks about how much of a resource hog our lawns are.

Lawns are the largest irrigated crop in the U.S., using approx. 50% of our residential fresh water resources. Lawn care uses over 3 million tons of fertilizer annually. Something like 3 million dollars is spent annually on lawn care pesticides. I'm betting our honey bees would like the pesticide use to be reduced, I know I would. About a billion gallons of gas are burned annually to mow these lawns with approx. 20 million gallons spilled in the process of refilling mowers.

If people were really concerned about the environment then I would think there would be a push to replace lawns with sustainable gardens. The same people who are ****ing and moaning about the affects of the cannabis industry will go out and mow their lawns this week and next week...etc. without once thinking of how it affects the environment. I'm trying to do my part in this area by setting up our property to run goats and in our immediate yard area I will move from a lawn tractor to a reel mower. I admit that I'm guilty of using a lot of fuel for mowing right now, but that will change as I get things under control. I don't water the lawn except when I put out seed, and I never use pesticides or herbicides that could damage the environment.

The irony is, while we know mono cultures are not healthy eco systems, they are effectively enforced in most residential areas.

[GoldenBrain]

The irony is, while we know mono cultures are not healthy eco systems, they are effectively enforced in most residential areas.

That's something that really kills me. I read about people trying to grow a garden in their front yard and then code enforcement drops by to shut it down. I can't even imagine having a law on the books that would prohibit growing our own food rather than a lawn. With grocery prices skyrocketing it only makes sense to grow a garden on any patch of land you can find.

[Kellen Bassette]

That's something that really kills me. I read about people trying to grow a garden in their front yard and then code enforcement drops by to shut it down. I can't even imagine having a law on the books that would prohibit growing our own food rather than a lawn. With grocery prices skyrocketing it only makes sense to grow a garden on any patch of land you can find.

It should certainly be encouraged over ****genizing the landscape.

[Syn7]

People have gone to prison for not maintaining their lawns. I guess if you sign an agreement you should see it through, but prison? Crazy. There are tons of these stories. Here's one:

http://www.tampabay.com/news/humaninterest/brown-lawn-means-jail-time/847365

We all sacrifice to keep the women happy, it's just how we get by, lol. I hear you on that one GB. You can slowly work on her while maintaining a healthy domestic atmosphere. :)

[SoCo KungFu]

I have no lawn, or yard for that matter. One dream is to get a nice chunk of land in a neighborhood along a river. Throw up a tiny house. And convert the lawn into a functional wetland. Maybe even breed and reintroduce a couple threatened species just to add a little more p iss in the cereal.

[SoCo KungFu]

People have gone to prison for not maintaining their lawns. I guess if you sign an agreement you should see it through, but prison? Crazy. There are tons of these stories. Here's one:

http://www.tampabay.com/news/humaninterest/brown-lawn-means-jail-time/847365


Florida, nuff said...

[GoldenBrain]

We all sacrifice to keep the women happy, it's just how we get by, lol. I hear you on that one GB. You can slowly work on her while maintaining a healthy domestic atmosphere. :)

She's a smart one so I have my work cut out for me. I think the only way around this no lawn thing is to fork out some cheddar for some artificial lawn made from recycled materials. We have looked at that option, but it's seriously expensive so it's hard to justify the cost.



I have no lawn, or yard for that matter. One dream is to get a nice chunk of land in a neighborhood along a river. Throw up a tiny house. And convert the lawn into a functional wetland. Maybe even breed and reintroduce a couple threatened species just to add a little more p iss in the cereal.


Rock on SoCo! That sounds like a great plan. I seriously hope you realize that dream one day. Here's to **** in the cereal...cheers!

[Jimbo]

Dude. I can't stand maintaining a lawn. I have no desire to go roll around in it, play in it. It just sits there and does sweet **** all but suck water and take up my time, lol. If I want to go play, there are plenty of good park spaces where I live. But unless you have kids or are playing some sport, why would I go to the park when I live around mountains! :D

If it was my call, my lawn would not exist. And the worst part is that out of four homes that share it, only two of us seem to be keeping it up. It's **** grass too. It's weedy and has at least 3 different kinds of grass and this time of year it grows like 6 inches in 4 days. Not evenly either, cause as I said, it's all mixed up. Annoying. I like uniformity, so that drives me nuts. I would love to pull it out. Or let it go native. But no, that wouldn't be aesthetically pleasing.

Ok... rant over.:)

My own lawn is almost nonexistent. The only part that is, abuts one of my neighbors, and it's the only part I maintain to look neat. That part looks fine when mowed, but in reality, it's weedy like yours...crabgrass, lots of other stuff as well. I could spend hours pulling it out, but it comes back. The rest of my 'lawn' is mostly dead with patches of dirt showing through. The extreme drought conditions have seen to that, and I haven't been watering the lawn, just some of the other plants/trees that need it. Otherwise, the yard is neatly kept. I'm thinking of reseeding part of the front lawn, though, mostly to better hold the soil in place. Looking around the neighborhood, I can see I'm not the only one like this...we aren't the majority, but far from rare. I'm thankful my neighborhood isn't one of those homeowners associations.

[Syn7]

Yeah, where I live you don't have to water the lawn unless you have one of those douchebag lawns. Drought isn't an issue here.

I've met a lot of folks who feel the same too. My dad is one of them. He has a patch in the back lot, but it's wild grass that we cut down so we can get to the berry patches. In fact, most of it isn't even grass, just looks like a lawn from a distance when kept up. It's pretty much where the dog goes to do his thing. :p

[GoldenBrain]

Xeriscape is always a good option for those with sparse lawns. It's a little more accepted in communities with statutes against vegetable gardens. I like the idea of using local flora, and for drought areas this makes even more sense.

Home gardens are an area where our European friends like Sweden or Switzerland for instance are embarrassing us here in the U.S.. They actually come together as a community and discuss who is growing what, so they can be more efficient in what they grow and waste less produce. The even share...:eek:

[David Jamieson]

We are seeing the rise of syndicalism to replace capitalism right now.
I give it about 25 years before the transition is complete.
Maybe sooner depending on what the big players do.

[GoldenBrain]

We are seeing the rise of syndicalism to replace capitalism right now.
I give it about 25 years before the transition is complete.
Maybe sooner depending on what the big players do.

Me thinks you're right.

As a product of capitalism I didn't really understand the term syndicalism, and maybe still don't full understand it. However, after researching it a little bit I don't really have a problem with it. I just don't understand how it can be implemented effectively with so many millions of people to be represented by the syndicates. And, wherever it has been tried, it seems to be a means to another type of political system rather than a means to it's own end.

[mawali]

We are seeing the rise of syndicalism to replace capitalism right now.
I give it about 25 years before the transition is complete.
Maybe sooner depending on what the big players do.

Citizens United aka Money is speech, heralded and made legal by the Constitutional Monarchy (SCOTUS aka SCROTUM) will be the rule of the Day until the natural born citizens wake up!
Whatever a corporation decides, has been the Rule since the Reagan era but now it is LAW. If they do not want to invest in Detroit, Ohio, Pennsylvania and the Rust Belt, it is OK. They get to find the cheapest location to abuse the foreign worker (if they get 5.00/a day then 2.00/hour can make one a rich man:confused:). It is easy for the corporation to show who's the boss.
A recent development is that people are realizing that solar is a way to beat the high cost of utility increases but now ALEC and Heritage Foundation found that a way to beat this is to penalize those who want to save money then tax them for using solar! Go figure! Then a recent law that is seeking to reclassify water i.e. if you have a piece of land and there is a natural pooling/collection on your property, the state has a right to tax that water by any means possible..
Colorado had a law where people could be fined for collecting water in barrels since according to the law the area above their house belongs to the state:confused: so any water collected is theirs.
I am not that clever to make this stuff up! Check it out!

[Syn7]

Citizens United aka Money is speech... has been the Rule since the Reagan era but now it is LAW.

Buckley v. Valeo(1976) was what really opened the door for rulings like Citizens United v. FEC.

You need an Article V convention which requires the support of 2/3 of the states(to call). So far this has been proposed in 11 states. It has passed in one state(Vermont) and is pending in the rest. It's really close in California and it will pass there. And you know how these things go. It is slow to start but once the sheep see it's moving along, they jump on board.