How effective would these styles be in a modern day street environment?

[Rosa]

Ziranmen

Xinyiquan

Hung Gar

Bak Mei

SPM

Trynna learn more about these styles before diving into a style. What do people think of these styles in terms of modern day street defence?

[Neeros]

If the school includes force training and combat efficiency all of them, if the training is just forms then none of them.

Find a good teacher, style doesn't matter.

[Miqi]

Hi Rosa,
People's opinions will obviously vary - but I'll give you the view from one extreme. 'Styles' are nothing without being combined with an individual and their training ethic, natural ability, commitment and natural atrributes. These then need to be combined with an effective coach and training programme. Then these things combine to produce the outcome - it's not the style that is effective, it's you. However, it is almost impossible to find anyone who actually has even a reasonable level in any of those arts - but that doesn't mean that a commited student couldn't go further than a poor teacher.

As for 'the street' - this is really just a cover-all term for an infinite variety of possible self defence needs. Even if you go to a self-defence specialist, like JKD or krav maga, everything Ive just said above also applies.

All in all, volunteering to do wushu thesedays is a strange thing, in large part based on some affinity you feel with it - with its body language skills, its history etc. Getting anything practical out of it is a bonus - getting to a good level in those arts, is virtually unheard of, although, there are many bogus instructors who claim otherwise.

However, many people feel precisely the opposite. You pays your money...

[Rosa]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lnq1iKc8b1Y Miqi this guy seems pretty legit. His movements and all that seem lethal.

I would love to learn from this guy but I live in Australia (Melbourne).

[mooyingmantis]

Rosa,
For practical fighting I would put Southern Praying Mantis above all the rest that you listed. You should learn the most practical, common sense techniques in the shortest time in that style.

The "style doesn't matter" philosophy is BS. It is the person "blah, blah, blah" is BS. You need the right tool for the right job. A hammer will break up the dirt, but a shovel will dig a hole faster and more efficiently.

I guess style doesn't matter if you want to devote years to a style that:
1. Takes years before you will make the style natural to you and thus be able to use it effectively,
2. In the end is the wrong style for your body type.
3. Only has a small bag of tricks that only work in certain situations.

The person is more important than the style if:
1. The person is too lazy to practice. Styles are not learned by osmosis.
2. The person never overcomes the fear of getting hit. No style can give you intestinal fortitude.
3. The person is unwilling to do what it takes to subdue the attacker. Fighting is messy.

In my 45 years of training I have studied Chinese, Japanese, Korean and Filipino arts. Some were very effective, some were a waste of time for self-defense.

[MightyB]

I'd say look at the Bak Mei or SPM schools and try to find which one has the shortest amount of required forms and has a heavier emphasis on sparring and live applications and drills.

You'll get that Chinese flavor, but it'll end up being the sparring that matters the most for your "street environment".

[MightyB]

In all honesty it doesn't matter which style you choose if the teachers are any good. Try each out if you can and see which one you like the best.

[David Jamieson]

Agreed. Styles have zero effect in and of themselves. They are like oranges. there's different kinds. Some are seedless, some are small, some are big, some are red, some are more yellow etc etc. they're all oranges, pick one, eat it, enjoy the flavour.

It's the person. It has always been the person and their dedication to practice and lifting their skill.

Streetfighting is more about survival. Curb stomping is a style. Hit with a found object is a style. Who has the guts to apply. Styles don't provide guts. You either got guts or you don't. Style is irrelevant in that light.

Fighting is a dirty business. So fight dirty. < this is good street fighting advice.

Fighting is a dirty business. Don't get dirty. < This is advice for the man of peace.

[SimonM]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lnq1iKc8b1Y Miqi this guy seems pretty legit. His movements and all that seem lethal.

I would love to learn from this guy but I live in Australia (Melbourne).

Anybody can look hard punching the air. It's not the style; it's the teacher. More specifically, it's what the teacher teaches. If the teacher teaches fighting you'll be able to fight. If they teach dancing you'll be able to dance.

[SPJ]

Ziranmen

Xinyiquan

Hung Gar

Bak Mei

SPM

Trynna learn more about these styles before diving into a style. What do people think of these styles in terms of modern day street defence?

None of the styles are easy to learn.

You need to drill San ti, horse stance and 7 star stance for a few hours every day for 6 months or more and then daily.

You need to condition your forearm to be strong with Hung Gar, Bak Mei and mantis. Such as walking upside down with your hands on the ground etc.

You need to condition and strengthen your grips with tiger claw and mantis claw. Grabbing flower bags or metal ball/brick and toss in the air etc

You need to condition your strong and flexible wrist with tiger claw and mantis claw. Twirl and grab against a rope or a staff 250 times or more etc

You need to condition jumping steps with mantis. With each jump, you land in different posture/step. You need to run with lead tie on your ankle etc.

---

on and on.

Might as well get a pepper spray, electric high voltage shocker, whistle, etc

--

:eek:

[SimonM]

Or, you know, you could go to a reputable gym, drill, spar, and learn how to fight and it'd still take you a few years but you wouldn't need a six-hour horse stance regimen. :p

[MightyB]

Might as well get a pepper spray, electric high voltage shocker, whistle, etc


There's a lot of truth in this, but I think this person wants to take an authentic style. He or she is window shopping and wants an informed opinion. They don't want to end up being a paper tiger after 10yrs of diligent study, which can and does happen unfortunately too much in traditional martial arts.

[Miqi]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lnq1iKc8b1Y Miqi this guy seems pretty legit. His movements and all that seem lethal.

I would love to learn from this guy but I live in Australia (Melbourne).

Hi Rosa,
Yeah, he looks pretty tough. There are many great wushu experts - just, not so many outside of China.

[MightyB]

Hi Rosa,
Yeah, he looks pretty tough.

As my grandfather probably would have said... Be wary of southerners with that many tats.

*just looked at some more of his stuff. He's definitely into sparring. It's a pretty hard core school. Obviously you're aware that his school isn't representative of all Bak Mei schools,

so you're going to have to go in - check it out and see if you like the school that's in your area.

[Rosa]

I actually really want to do Bak Mei but no schools around my area unfortunately.

But on the bright side. Wing Chun looks really appealing so might give that a shot and see how it goes.

[MightyB]

I actually really want to do Bak Mei but no schools around my area unfortunately.

But on the bright side. Wing Chun looks really appealing so might give that a shot and see how it goes.

They seem to be similar styles, at least to me... but whatever style you choose - stick with it and enjoy. Don't let other people discourage you.

[Rosa]

http://www.aaron.net.au/pak_mei/

Would be awesome to study there. It's free and all haha.

[Frost]

I actually really want to do Bak Mei but no schools around my area unfortunately.

But on the bright side. Wing Chun looks really appealing so might give that a shot and see how it goes.

so lets get this right, you asked about the effectiveness of a number of styles, then admit at least one of them you have no hope of training, then mention another style not on your original list, before people waste too much time what arts are actually near you...

[Frost]

They seem to be similar styles, at least to me... but whatever style you choose - stick with it and enjoy. Don't let other people discourage you.

pak mei is closer to southern mantis than wing Chun, pak mei and wing chun have fundermental differences in terms of generating power, strategy when fighting technices used etc

[David Jamieson]

pak mei is closer to southern mantis than wing Chun, pak mei and wing chun have fundermental differences in terms of generating power, strategy when fighting technices used etc

well that, and if you take a look through the wing chun forum you'll see that there is a requirement that you be argumentative, stubborn and unchanging in your point of view and you need to mouth box a lot better than anyone else. Also, be angry. :p

P.S If you're a real candidate for wing chun, you won't find any of that funny and you will issue some sort of challenge that will ultimately go nowhere.
Just ask Bawang.

[SimonM]

P.S If you're a real candidate for wing chun, you won't find any of that funny and you will issue some sort of challenge that will ultimately go nowhere.
Just ask Bawang.

I'm still waiting for any challenge on this forum ever from anyone to lead to an actual match.

[Raipizo]

I'm still waiting for any challenge on this forum ever from anyone to lead to an actual match.

That would be interesting.

[Frost]

I'm still waiting for any challenge on this forum ever from anyone to lead to an actual match.

there was one a long time ago, i know hard to believe

[wiz cool c]

i would put hung gar up there at the top. with all the clawing and poking,along with the dynamic tension and body condition,makes you feel buff,strong and ready

[Lokhopkuen]

Bust a cap in anyone's a s s that messes with you. None of these long winded choomes on this forum know squat about the martial arts.

I highly recommend the h&k MP 5 and a good concealment rig
8024
If you opt out on firearms go to NYC and find this guy teaching lama Pai kung Fu,
He will teach you the ins and outs or real kung fu.

[Lokhopkuen]

I'm still waiting for any challenge on this forum ever from anyone to lead to an actual match.

It most certainly would not be you LMAO....

[SimonM]

It most certainly would not be you LMAO....

Yeah, I don't issue challenges over this forum. However I'd be happy to spar with anybody in Toronto. Again, not holding my breath.

[David Jamieson]

Yeah, I don't issue challenges over this forum. However I'd be happy to spar with anybody in Toronto. Again, not holding my breath.

PM if you are going to be in Markham or shoot me a line in FB and I'll give you my cell # to text. We can play any number of things out in the secret lair mo gwoon I keep there. No crazies, no ego filled ruckus, just a good work out and some sharing. That's typically what we do.

Having said that. That's a nice MP5 attache setup Kisu. is it yours? Because dayum! lol budda budda brudda would be a cool nickname. :D

[SimonM]

I'll definitely let you know next time I'm out that way. I rarely leave downtown, midtown and east york but I come up to the outer reaches of the GTA once every fortnight or ten.

[David Jamieson]

I'll definitely let you know next time I'm out that way. I rarely leave downtown, midtown and east york but I come up to the outer reaches of the GTA once every fortnight or ten.

Most Wednesday evenings (except 2nd wed of month) or Friday afternoons are training days. :)
But in the summer months, I travel a bit more myself and go visit friends kwoons or do outdoor sessions etc.

[SPJ]

In the street,

you will be outnumbered. And the opponent may have some kind of weapon to threaten you.

1 Look around for an exit path.

2 Ready to run.

3 Look for cover.

4 Look for tools to fight or threaten back.

5 Throw something heavy or valuable at the opponent and run.

The bottom line is to RUN.

All styles train you how to dodge and run.

There.

I love Jackie Chan's movies.

Why ? there are so many dodge and run. You may count how many in each flick.

Use the stair, bike, bench and what have you to fight.

Count how many tools used in JC's flicks.

There, too (2).

:)

[sanjuro_ronin]

Yeah, I don't issue challenges over this forum. However I'd be happy to spar with anybody in Toronto. Again, not holding my breath.

One would think that things wouldn't be that hard, but they are.
Life and such,
I myself have so little time that even I find it hard to believe.
I have a 60 min window Mon, Wednesday and Fridays.
Sucks but such is life.
When I was on Bullshido YEARS ago we did a few "throwdowns" and they were fun But that was before kids and such.

I am hoping things will change in the summer, but...

[David Jamieson]

One would think that things wouldn't be that hard, but they are.
Life and such,
I myself have so little time that even I find it hard to believe.
I have a 60 min window Mon, Wednesday and Fridays.
Sucks but such is life.
When I was on Bullshido YEARS ago we did a few "throwdowns" and they were fun But that was before kids and such.

I am hoping things will change in the summer, but...

Bullshido had a very small and limited group of guys that were worthwhile meeting, you got lucky my brother from another mother lol. I had more luck with Cyberkwoon when it was going and we had some fun meet ups. Crikey, that's when I first met Rory Miller who has gone on to write books and do seminars all over the world. Plus a few other guys of really great quality skill. That was back in '03 that we first all got together in Montreal. Man, that was fun. Happy to say, we are all still in contact too!

[Miqi]

The bottom line is to RUN.

All styles train you how to dodge and run.


:)

I had this fight once. By fight I mean I got leathred - I mean, proper, on the floor, people playing football with my head. Do you know what I'd done just before getting leathered? I'd run - I'd run as fast as I possibly could. And the people who leathered me ran after me. And then I was absolutely knackered - from running. There again, just before I started running, I was telling them all how I was going to freaking leather them, lol. They were all miles fitter than me.

I'm not saying don't run - just, it's not always the right thing to do. What would have made more sense is instead of running up the road, and the into a deserted area, running up to houses and banging on doors and yelling call the police.

[MightyB]

None of these long winded choomes on this forum know squat about the martial arts.


What would you know about kung fu with all that hang'n round beautiful women and doing choreography for one of the coolest animated shows, and - wait... er... where was I going with this rant?

[MightyB]

Here's one to discuss...



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XgFhcwUJoF4#t=585

[David Jamieson]

Something something, someone once said:

"Pain is the greatest teacher in martial arts, but no one wants to go to his class" lol

[Pete]

Here's one to discuss...



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XgFhcwUJoF4#t=585

hmm be open minded while at the same time rejecting wrist locks and crane strikes?! be open minded but only use what i say works, hooks and jabs? :confused:

oook then :o

i really believe you can use anything you want if you put enough effort into training it... for example if i trained only crane strikes (no idea what they are just going off the vid) for say 5 years everyday for 5-6 hours then i could probably take that guy down with a crouching crane to the bunghole :eek:

also like the way he says "we evolved" from 500ad or whatever... dunno what the greeks/spartans would think of that

[bawang]

Trynna learn more about these styles before diving into a style. What do people think of these styles in terms of modern day street defence?

ask George Zimmerman


hmm be open minded while at the same time rejecting wrist locks and crane strikes?! be open minded but only use what i say works, hooks and jabs? :confused:



shaolin kung fu has 24 jabs and 36 hooks. you should quit kung fu now.

[Pete]

shaolin kung fu has 24 jabs and 36 hooks. you should quit kung fu now.

hey i didn't say i don't use any jabs or hooks :p

[Lokhopkuen]

What would you know about kung fu with all that hang'n round beautiful women and doing choreography for one of the coolest animated shows, and - wait... er... where was I going with this rant?

You wascally Wabbit you:D
8025

[Lokhopkuen]

Yeah, I don't issue challenges over this forum. However I'd be happy to spar with anybody in Toronto. Again, not holding my breath.


Now a days I only get to cross hands with my students (sneaky lil b-stards) and some of my classmates that I don't like very much...

I wish I was still young, hot headed and evil; now I'm older, calculating and compassionate 96.003% of the time.

I've enjoyed some of the articles that you've published brother:D

[SimonM]

Now a days I only get to cross hands with my students (sneaky lil b-stards) and some of my classmates that I don't like very much...

I wish I was still young, hot headed and evil; now I'm older, calculating and compassionate 96.003% of the time.

I've enjoyed some of the articles that you've published brother:D

Thanks! If I ever dig myself out of this fiction hole (working on two novels simultaneously is hard) I'll probably write some more. :)

[MightyB]

You wascally Wabbit you:D

8031
..........

[sanjuro_ronin]

Something something, someone once said:

"Pain is the greatest teacher in martial arts, but no one wants to go to his class" lol

Game, set and match.

[Lokhopkuen]

8033

I need more time in the day so that I can spend it here with you lovely people:)

[MightyB]

8038
..........

[GeneChing]

Bullshido had a very small and limited group of guys that were worthwhile meeting, you got lucky my brother from another mother lol. I had more luck with Cyberkwoon when it was going and we had some fun meet ups. Crikey, that's when I first met Rory Miller who has gone on to write books and do seminars all over the world. Plus a few other guys of really great quality skill. That was back in '03 that we first all got together in Montreal. Man, that was fun. Happy to say, we are all still in contact too!

Enter to win KungFuMagazine.com's contest for SCALING FORCE: DVD & Book, autographed by Rory Miller (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/sweepstakes-scaling-force.php)!!! Contest ends 6:00 p.m. PST on 5/28/15.

[Brat]

I studied both Xingyi and 7 Star mantis in Asia. In Xingyi it's easy to learn the forms but developing power takes time. If you use Xingyi with no power you are going to get clobbered. 7 Star mantis's forms are more difficult to learn as they are longer and not as repetitive as Xingyi's. But once you're doing the form correctly the power comes easily. Also to be effective mantis must be practiced at a very fast tempo and it is more of an aggressive attacking style. In my experience Mantis is not so good in a defensive mode but Xingyi can be.

I was once in a club in Seoul and I was having a roundabout discussion about martial arts with an army guy who asked if he and I could "go a few rounds". After about 40 seconds he threw numerous kicks and punches and a couple attempts at take downs he hadn't even brushed up against me. I never counter attacked once. This was NOT a real fight as we squared off and generally that never happens in a spontaneous real world fight. I basically used Xingyi footwork to evade him.

If you really know how to fight not too many people will mess with you because your body language will convey this.

[Syn7]

The "style doesn't matter" philosophy is BS. It is the person "blah, blah, blah" is BS. You need the right tool for the right job. A hammer will break up the dirt, but a shovel will dig a hole faster and more efficiently

And sometimes you have to break up the dirt before you shovel it.

I think that body type and aptitude do matter to a point. While I agree that a good style will produce results for any serious student, some styles do suit some people better than others. That isn't to say that some styles aren't garbage while others are relatively legit, just that if you recognize your strengths and limitations you can find legit styles that may suit you better than others. Give you that extra lil edge in your development.

For example, I wrestled in HS, moved into catch as catch can and then to BJJ. I was a slightly better than average wrestler, a decent catch wrestler, but I really excelled at BJJ because I'm lanky and flexible. It just worked for me. I could have worked harder on the other two and made progress, but I found BJJ played to my natural strengths.

[Brat]

And sometimes you have to break up the dirt before you shovel it.

I think that body type and aptitude do matter to a point. While I agree that a good style will produce results for any serious student, some styles do suit some people better than others. That isn't to say that some styles aren't garbage while others are relatively legit, just that if you recognize your strengths and limitations you can find legit styles that may suit you better than others. Give you that extra lil edge in your development.

For example, I wrestled in HS, moved into catch as catch can and then to BJJ. I was a slightly better than average wrestler, a decent catch wrestler, but I really excelled at BJJ because I'm lanky and flexible. It just worked for me. I could have worked harder on the other two and made progress, but I found BJJ played to my natural strengths.

That's an excellent point. I also think that the context of a person's particular situation plays a role. I had exactly the opposite experience with BJJ. At my school where fights were an everyday thing, if the fight went down you'd have every Tom, ****, and Harry coming in and taking shots at the dude on the bottom. No way even Royce would come out smelling like a rose in that one. Most of my fights never went to the ground and when they did I was usually the one on top. I had more call for stand up grappling sort if like when you are pressed up against a row of lockers which lent to Greco Roman more. I did two years in a BJJ school and learned lots of cool stuff but not much that I figure would benefit me in a street fight but with another person might just be what they need.

[GeneChing]

See our Winners-SCALING-FORCE-DVD-Book-autographed-by-Rory-Miller (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?68687-Winners-SCALING-FORCE-DVD-Book-autographed-by-Rory-Miller) thread.

[SteveLau]

For example, I wrestled in HS, moved into catch as catch can and then to BJJ. I was a slightly better than average wrestler, a decent catch wrestler, but I really excelled at BJJ because I'm lanky and flexible. It just worked for me. I could have worked harder on the other two and made progress, but I found BJJ played to my natural strengths.

That's the point. The styles are very effective. Very good system. But are do they compatible to you? That's the ultimate question. It happens often that student pick up styles that are effective in a modern day street environment, but he is not compatible with them.



Regards,

KC
Hong Kong

[Jimbo]

Yes, style compatibility is extremely important. It sometimes happens that a person practicing a style is not physically or mentally compatible with a style. That doesn't mean the style itself sucks. Also, I'm not suggesting that someone should give up on something they love doing because they aren't 'ideal' for their art. But these things can and do affect how well a person can make it work.

As only one example, I remember once at a TKD tournament, one guy had a fairly long torso but very short limbs, especially his legs. Otherwise, he was normal-sized. His opponent was having an easy time landing kicks and staying away from him. At one point they clinched, and he tried an inside crescent/axe kick, but his legs were so short he could barely get his kick above the waist, it lacked power and harmlessly bounced off the opponent's hip. He also fell a couple times attempting some high kicks.

Unfortunately, this individual had chosen an art that works exceptionally well *against* someone of his physical build. He may have been better served with an art like judo that might play to his strengths.

[boxerbilly]

Last 4-5 post were just excellent.