Old Thread Revised-Full Contact Kung Fu

[kung fu fighter]

Hi
Has anyone on this forum ever competed in, or saw how w.c. is used in full contact kung fu tornaments (san shou). How was w.c. used. Does anyone have footage of this especially from china.

Thanks
kung fu fighter

[Phil Redmond]

Some students of Duncan Leung competed in full contact at Madison Square Gardens years ago. I fought full contact using Wing Chun. In the Fu Jow Pai matches elbows, takedowns, and knees were allowed. I fought in one of those and won.
Phil

[kung fu fighter]

Hi Phil,
I trained with sifu Sonny Whitmore in N.Y. and i also got a ranking from the Traditional wing chun Assoc. from him. So i am familiar with some of the T.W.C stuff. I heard that william Cheung's student Rick Spain also won full contact fighting. Did he used T.W.C or his kuokoshinkai stuff. Duncan Leung had a student by the name of Steve Falkner that competed in a mixed martial art tornament here in canada called extreme fighting but he was taken down by a russian sambo guy before he was able to do anything. I didn't get a chance to see much. How did Duncan leung teach you guys to use the wing chun footwork to adjust distance and angle in this invironment. Can i get a copy of the tape with Duncan students competing at madison square gardens. Someone mentioned that Dduncan's older material was much better than what he is currently teaching. What's your opinion on this?
I will be competing in my first professional full contact kung fu fight and would like to showcase my w.c. skills as appose to my thaiboxing stuff, any technical help would be appreciated from anyone on the forum.

Thanks
Kung fu fighter

[hunt1]

I have a student that won the Battle of Tampabay a year or two ago. One of the biggest things was adjusting his footwork for a ring. Some wing chun has kinda dead footwork some has alive. Must have alive footwork and 50/50 as your base and cant be on your heels. Again some wing chun heel shifts and tend to fall back onto heals some dont. Dont know you so cant be specific. Other thing is what kind of gloves are you using. 10 ounce ,8 ounce,mma gloves etc all require different changes to your basic wing chun hand usage. My experience is that wing chun works just fine in a ring. Best thing to do is train using the exact rules and ring that you will fight in. Understanding how to use the ring or mat space available is very important.

[SAAMAG]

What systems of wing chun are not based on the heels? I didn't know there was any.

[sihing]

The WC I use isn't based on the heel for our stance work. In SLT, we are balanced 50/50 weight, and the down the center of the foot. This does not change when using it in combat, at least the best we can because you can't always stay 50/50 weighted, is so try kicking. On the heels IMO opinion would leave you to back weighted and pushed off balance and harder to initiate any sort of effective attack. 100/0 weighted will leave you more imobile and committed to that back leg structure. Its important to have the ability to move equally in any and all directions at any time, and this is most efficiently done in 50/50 stances. Feet are slightly wider than shoulder width, for a stable yet mobile stance with footwork. I agree, active footwork is the key in combat, rather than stationary non moving target type philosophies..

James

[Phil Redmond]

Originally posted by kung fu fighter
Hi Phil,
I trained with sifu Sonny Whitmore in N.Y. and i also got a ranking from the Traditional wing chun Assoc. from him. So i am familiar with some of the T.W.C stuff. I heard that william Cheung's student Rick Spain also won full contact fighting. Did he used T.W.C or his kuokoshinkai stuff. Duncan Leung had a student by the name of Steve Falkner that competed in a mixed martial art tornament here in canada called extreme fighting but he was taken down by a russian sambo guy before he was able to do anything. I didn't get a chance to see much. How did Duncan leung teach you guys to use the wing chun footwork to adjust distance and angle in this invironment. Can i get a copy of the tape with Duncan students competing at madison square gardens. Someone mentioned that Dduncan's older material was much better than what he is currently teaching. What's your opinion on this?
I will be competing in my first professional full contact kung fu fight and would like to showcase my w.c. skills as appose to my thaiboxing stuff, any technical help would be appreciated from anyone on the forum.

Thanks
Kung fu fighter
The Duncan Leung students who fought were Joel and Gary Young, Raul Zapata, Willie Arroyo, Joe Pelican and a few other that I don't remember. It was in the 70's as you can tell by my disco shirt and Afro. :) I don't think there were many if any camcorders back then. Sifu Duncan Leung or Sifu Alan Lee would probably know if there is any sort of footage.
PR

[Phil Redmond]

Originally posted by kung fu fighter
. . . . . I will be competing in my first professional full contact kung fu fight and would like to showcase my w.c. skills as appose to my thaiboxing stuff, any technical help would be appreciated from anyone on the forum.

Thanks
Kung fu fighter
Simply look at WC as a system of principles instead of techniques and adapt them to what you already know.
PR

[KPM]

Originally posted by Vankuen
What systems of wing chun are not based on the heels? I didn't know there was any.


Yuen Kay Shan WCK, Ku Lo Pin Sun WCK, Leung Sheung's line of Yip Man WCK (including Leung Ting), Mai Gei Wong WCK, some other various in Yip Man WCK such as I believe Sam Kwok...... Most non-Yip Man WCK uses the K1 point as the pivot point and not the heel.

Keith

[t_niehoff]

KPM wrote: Most non-Yip Man WCK uses the K1 point as the pivot point and not the heel.

**Is that because it is their "lego piece" (and so you must do it that way) or do you understand, via function, the advantages and disadvantages to the K1 weighting? Many teach these things as "the way of doing it" instead of "a way of doing it", and exploring the whens and whys of each. Again, in my view, these things are beyond lineage.

**Anyone that fights (applies WCK) will find themselves not standing and being weighted on their heels (flatfooted) unless the are pressing or lifting or otherwise receiving the opponent's pressure (since the arch in the foot acts as a spring, and standing on K1 allows one to engage that natural spring, but when pressure is applied, it flattens the arch and the heel comes into play -- this is just normal, everyday mechanics). If you look at *any* Yip Man student that had much fighting experience, like WSL, you'll see him moving on the balls of his feet (K1).

[SAAMAG]

So then when they pivot (turning stance or chor ma) then do their heels swing, or their toes? I'm trying to figure this out because if the weighting point is K1 (ball of the foot) that would mean their heels would be swinging around when they pivot and therefore their center as well.

Don't get me wrong, I do in fact use various parts of my feet as the weighting points and usually when moving, will always be on the balls of my feet, only going to the heels when it's necessary to perform a movement that facilitates the need for it.

But from a wing chun standpoint, I don't see how one can keep their center in place while pivoting on anything but the heels, assuming they are rooted and not intending to give ground or step in any minor fashion.

Oh, and my very limited experience with the LT line, of course through EBMAS, still uses the heel so far from what I've seen, as well as 0/100 weighting when fighting. (Both a no-no in my opinion for "real fighting"). ALthough their heel pivots are very slight in comparison to most heel pivoting WC.

[MRH]

I turn with the centre of the foot so both the heels and toe move.
This gives me the same stability all through the turn.

With a previuos teacher I turned on the heels and worried about my stability through the turn.

Turning on the centre of the foot rather than the heel and toe works for me and feels a lot more stable in the stance.

[KPM]

KPM wrote: Most non-Yip Man WCK uses the K1 point as the pivot point and not the heel.

**Is that because it is their "lego piece" (and so you must do it that way) or do you understand, via function, the advantages and disadvantages to the K1 weighting? Many teach these things as "the way of doing it" instead of "a way of doing it", and exploring the whens and whys of each. Again, in my view, these things are beyond lineage.

---You can interpret it any way you want. The fact is that most non-Yip Man WCK pivots on the K1 point. KPM

** If you look at *any* Yip Man student that had much fighting experience, like WSL, you'll see him moving on the balls of his feet (K1).

---Maybe so. But WSL pivoted on the heels when doing the Tor Ma. KPM


Keith

[KPM]

So then when they pivot (turning stance or chor ma) then do their heels swing, or their toes? I'm trying to figure this out because if the weighting point is K1 (ball of the foot) that would mean their heels would be swinging around when they pivot and therefore their center as well.

---That's right. Heel pivot = toes swing, K1 pivot = heels swing. KPM

But from a wing chun standpoint, I don't see how one can keep their center in place while pivoting on anything but the heels, assuming they are rooted and not intending to give ground or step in any minor fashion.

---Works perfectly well. I was a "heel-turner" for many years and thought the same way. Someway convinced me to practice the K1 turn enough to become proficient in it and I haven't looked back since. KPM

Oh, and my very limited experience with the LT line, of course through EBMAS, still uses the heel so far from what I've seen,

---I think you need to take another look. Unless Emin has made some changes to what Leung Ting taught him, the Leung Ting lineage is big on pivoting on the K1 point. KPM

Keith

[YongChun]

Let's not fight about it and agree to pivot on the point half way in between the two extremes.

[SAAMAG]

Were not fighting...they're just informing me on pivoting on the k1 point rather then the heels.

[Vajramusti]

The emphasis on the heel remains with me. . Prior to wing chun I turned on the ball and can turn in any of the various ways discussed.The heel is the strongest part of the foot. Pivoting on the heel does not mean rocking back on the heel. The whole bottom of the foot reamins in touch with an even surface for practice.

Once the principles of gravity are understood one can lift ones foot to adjust to different surfaces and move in any way needed in a fight or in sparring.

The K1 point is an acupuncture point and there are acupuncture points all over the body and the alignmnets are not all exactly vertical.
Turning on K1- or the ball throws the axis off when it is not necessary to do so. Alignmnet of mechanical connectios, electrical connections and chemical connections are somehwhat different systems and things.

But to each his own.

These are all training issues- in reality you go with whatever adjustment is needed in a crisis. Nota time for dogma.

Boxers work in different ways- for hooks turning on the ball of the swivelling foot. But often when they get ready for power- they are more flat footed.-- for those moments.
In close quarters- good ankle-heel alignmnets rather than ball and k1 are netter insurance against being thrown.

To kung fufighter(not knifefighter) -FWIW--- the Duncan Leung student who lost-appreciate his courage for getting into the ring- made the not uncommon mistake in a Canadian Indian reserve UFC-if memory serves- of liftinga foot too early and was taken down. Of course if a clear kicking opporunity is there its a different thing but liftinga foot while closing againsta grappler, jj, sambo person is a major mistake.

You have to figure out what is "your" wing chun no matter what lineage it comes from - so that it can come out reflexively- rather than being too cerebral when you are nearing fight time.

The last thing learned is often the first thing that disappears- when one is hit.

Footwork even kicking drills are for flexibilty and footwork- so that the hands can do even more.

[martyg]

Originally posted by Vajramusti

Turning on K1- or the ball throws the axis off when it is not necessary to do so.

Hi Joy, I'd have to disagree on this - it depends entirely how your weight is distrbiuted (including posturing of the body from the waist up) as to whether it throws the axis off. The problem with discussing shifting on k-1 is just like any other discussion on wing chun mechanics- there's lots of ways to do it. For instance, I had the opportunity to meet Stanley Jiu (pien san sifu from out east) a number of years ago, who also shifts on k-1. However, his body use (posture, distribution, etc.) was different than mine - and in fact his axis did change as you mention - but that also had something to do with the "side facing" idea.

For example, in order for me to accomplish this shifting test (which is done without momentum or speed) my axis must remain stable to provide the rotation/spiraling point:
shifting test (http://www.hanweionline.org/wingchun/shiftingtest.php)

Likewise, Keith mentioned in his k-1 shifting the heels swing. In mine the feeling is a bit different. Same focus on k-1 between us, just different use.

Marty
Watchful Dragon (http://www.hanweionline.org/wingchun)

[reneritchie]

LOL! The point is to change the center axis.

If you don't need to change the center, just stay straight. You should have enough power that way anyway.

[Vajramusti]

Martyg sez:

Hi Joy, I'd have to disagree on this -

((Hi Marty- disagreements keeps life interesting))






reneritchie sez::


LOL! The point is to change the center axis.

((LOL too- not when you dont need to)

If you don't need to change the center, just stay straight. You should have enough power that way anyway.

((LOL- too- where does power come from??))

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by Vajramusti
The emphasis on the heel remains with me. . Prior to wing chun I turned on the ball and can turn in any of the various ways discussed.The heel is the strongest part of the foot. Pivoting on the heel does not mean rocking back on the heel. The whole bottom of the foot reamins in touch with an even surface for practice. I can't think of one dymanic, competive human combative event where the top performers would be turning on or keeping their weight on thier heels.

[SAAMAG]

Well, the way I try to see it is through basic human anatomy. Just look at normal posturing and movement. Stability comes from being flat footed, and mobility comes better from being on the balls of the feet. I see plenty of professional boxers and MMA fighters on their heels, and the balls of their feet, nothing being static of course and nothing stays longer then it needs to, but it does happen. Everything has it's place.

Wing chun being the style that it is depends on rooting, that being the case it makes sense to be on the full foot rather then just the balls of the feet. Can you imagine how stupid you would look and how unstable you would be standing around on your toes? It just doesn't make sense. The same way it doesn't make sense to sprint on the heels.

So that's the way I think of it. Long story short....everything has it's place.

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by Vankuen
I see plenty of professional boxers and MMA fighters on their heels, and the balls of their feet... If it is happening it is a mistake. Ask any boxer or MMA fighter and they will tell you they never want thier weight on their heels.

Even the square stance of wrestling, one of the most stable of "rooted" stances, doesn't want the weight on the heels.

The rule of any dynamic sport- wrestling, boxing, basketball, baseball, judo, even sprinting- is to keep the weight off the heels.


Originally posted by Vankuen
Stability comes from being flat footed, and mobility comes better from being on the balls of the feet. Stability comes from a squatted stance with the feet flat and the weight slightly over the balls of the feet. Weight over the heels leads to loss of stability.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Even when throwing a kick...I still can't imagine having the weight of the support leg on the heel - it would be evenly distributed throughout the whole bottom of the foot....and if anything...with some kicks the weight would be transferred to the ball of the foot.

Don't know where all this talk of having the weight on the heels is coming from? Whether it be when kicking, standing still in a ready position, moving forward, moving backwards, moving laterally.

Never heard/did this throughout all my years with Moy Yat and then William Cheung.

Not enough balance...not enough forward momentum and initiative.

Makes no fighting sense.

[Vajramusti]

ROFL- Folks on the internet sometimes have trouble reading.
I will reproduce what I said below.
I did not say that the weight is on the heel. I said that the entire foot is on the floor at the development stage. Ergo- the weight is on the whole foot. I repeat- the weight is on the whole foot.
Not on the heel alone.
When one pivots- one needs a pivoting point. (TWC tends to step
because of their toe positions)
3 major pivoting possibilities.Boxers(for hooks for instance) usea ball of the foot for pivoting. Hence they can be thrown. Marty and others say that they pivot on the K1 point- an acupuncture point. Good chance they are actually pivoting on the back part of the ball of the foot or making other structural changes or differnt from my ygkym.I pivot using the heel as a pivoting point. I do not put all my weight on the heel.

Knowing your pivoting point results ina smooth chor ma- like the gentle push on the turning four part glss doors of tall office buildings. The door pivots on an axis.

For sparring/fighting- I move any way I need to or choose to because both the weighting balance and the pivoting points are internalized via practice and experience. One adjusts to distancing,
walking and running and the nature of the terrain where foot lifting may become mandatory. Sheesh- read:
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Previous post:Verbatim

The emphasis on the heel remains with me. . Prior to wing chun I turned on the ball and can turn in any of the various ways discussed.The heel is the strongest part of the foot. Pivoting on the heel does not mean rocking back on the heel. The whole bottom of the foot reamins in touch with an even surface for practice
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Weighting and pivot point are two different things.!!

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by Vajramusti
Weighting and pivot point are two different things.!! The same points I made above regarding weight distribution apply to pivoting.

[Vajramusti]

knifefighter sez:

The same points I made above regarding weight distribution apply to pivoting.
---------------------------------------------------------------
Not to worry. Our opinions on wing chun often differ.

[SAAMAG]

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Vankuen
I see plenty of professional boxers and MMA fighters on their heels, and the balls of their feet...
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

If it is happening it is a mistake. Ask any boxer or MMA fighter and they will tell you they never want thier weight on their heels.
**Then there's a lot of people making mistakes out there with more skill then any of us on this forum!!!

Even the square stance of wrestling, one of the most stable of "rooted" stances, doesn't want the weight on the heels.
**I wrestled in high school too, and although most of the time we were on the balls of the feet moving around constantly, there were times when the heels are dug in, like I said before, things are dynamic. I'm not talking just standing there on your heels, Im talking throughout the fight, weight will be shifting and changing and moving from one part of the foot to the other...naturally.

The rule of any dynamic sport- wrestling, boxing, basketball, baseball, judo, even sprinting- is to keep the weight off the heels.
**Let's take a boxer's cross then for example...when I throw it, my back foot is on the ball and the front is flat footed. So then you're telling me I should have both heels in the air doing that?! Sorry I don't think so. But then that's just one milllisecond in the totality of the fight....and like I said...nothing stays.

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Vankuen
Stability comes from being flat footed, and mobility comes better from being on the balls of the feet.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Stability comes from a squatted stance with the feet flat and the weight slightly over the balls of the feet. Weight over the heels leads to loss of stability.

**Funny, you quoted me saying one thing and then rebuttled something else not in my quote. Hell we even said the same thing at one point!. Notice the underlined sections....lol.
I'm trying to say flat footed, not heel weighted. Just for clarification.
__________________________________________________ __

"Even when throwing a kick...I still can't imagine having the weight of the support leg on the heel - it would be evenly distributed throughout the whole bottom of the foot....and if anything...with some kicks the weight would be transferred to the ball of the foot."

**EXACTLY!!!

[couch]

You can't fight with all the weight of your body on one leg and then on one heel. I feel that my weight is on the rear leg more than the front leg, but both feet grip the ground to hold me in my "hips forward" stance.

The way I train...there's no magic number to what the weight distribution is. Also, my shoulders are behind my hips to get my head away from the flying hands.

I feel that the shifting is more a training tool, same as stepping with dragging the back heel. I commented on another thread that the dragging is to build that explosive take-off power needed to get yourself out of trouble and around your opponent. Although I may shift once or twice in combat...I think I'll be more concerned with stepping IN and getting passed the elbows to take control. Wing Chun was designed with natural body structure in mind. We're not supposed to be facing our opponents in YJKYM stances the whole time and chasing them around the alleyway dragging our feet! :)

IMHO,
Couch

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by Vankuen

**Let's take a boxer's cross then for example...when I throw it, my back foot is on the ball and the front is flat footed. So then you're telling me I should have both heels in the air doing that?! No... the foot is flat, but there is still more weight over the ball of the foot than the heel.

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by Vajramusti
Not to worry. Our opinions on wing chun often differ. If you are saying it is advisable to pivot on the heel, your opinion not only differs from mine, but also from just about every other coach and athlete in any athletic event (with the exception of a couple of dance moves) that requires pivoting on the feet.

[Nick Forrer]

'Even if you are in a minority of one the truth is still the truth'

- Ghandi

[PaulH]

I was trained by my French Coaches to turn base on the center of the foot, but Gary prefers to turn on heels. Each has their pros and cons, but the heel method has ease of use advantage. From a body mechanic view, the Weight of Gravity line falls mostly directly on the heel. If you turn the rest of the foot with the heel carry all the weight load to a new angle they are much easier than the other method which has to do some work to carry the load also to a new body alignment. =)

[old jong]

Originally posted by Knifefighter
If you are saying it is advisable to pivot on the heel, your opinion not only differs from mine, but also from just about every other coach and athlete in any athletic event (with the exception of a couple of dance moves) that requires pivoting on the feet.

We are not talking about MMA's, sports or athletic matters.We try to talk about Wing Chun. You can have your opinions or you can talk in the name of the rest of the "athletic" world,that will not make you an expert with an educated opinion on something you don't know.

IMO,why do lose your time posting here anyway?...Why does a great BJJ black belt,a Royce Gracie friend,an authority in MMA among many other things spend his time on a Wing Chun Gung Fu forum?...Just asking! ;)

[Vajramusti]

Sorry knifefighter- neither you and your authorities dont seem to know much wing chun.

Note again- in action a good wing chun person does what is needed. Being flatfooted on a level footing and pivoting on the heel is a training routine... not a mechanical robotivc fighting routine.. A common mistake is not understanding
the progressive developmental of skills in wing chun kung fu.

In lots of activities- one needs to suddenly have the heel on the floor without being bounced back or pulled forward or losing one's balance.. I dont know your age- but I probably have seen more boxers and wrestlers at close quarters than many people on the list.

I can provide other examples from some dances and sporing and survival activities - but it should be evident by now I am not inclined to convince you of much. I am on the list to discuss how different wing chun families approach some common problems in learning wing chun well.

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by old jong
We are not talking about MMA's, sports or athletic matters.We try to talk about Wing Chun. You can have your opinions or you can talk in the name of the rest of the "athletic" world,that will not make you an expert with an educated opinion on something you don't know.Oh, I see...
WC somehow magically follows different laws of biomechanical efficiencies than do all other athletic endeavors.
OKey dokey.


Originally posted by old jong
IMO,why do lose your time posting here anyway?...Why does a great BJJ black belt,a Royce Gracie friend,an authority in MMA among many other things spend his time on a Wing Chun Gung Fu forum?...Just asking! ;) Kind of like a train wreck... just have to watch (and make commentaries).

[old jong]

No you don't see! Okey dokey?...
Hey they must have a bit ch of the week thread on some BJJ forum!...It should be even more pleasant to watch....(And make commentaries!)

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by old jong
No you don't see! Okey dokey?...
Hey they must have a bit ch of the week thread on some BJJ forum!...It should be even more pleasant to watch....(And make commentaries!) Nah...
Most of the guys on the BJJ/MMA forums know what they are talking about...
It would be pretty rare to hear anyone talk about pivoting on the heels or how bad it is to spar at 100% or how one single art is applicable to all situations or how one lineage of BJJ is much better than the other...
...not much snide commentary to be made there.

[Sihing73]

Someone asked about an old thread and I provided them a link but for some reason they were unable to access the link.
I have merged the old thread into this one in order to allow them to access the thread.