I think Judo is going to overtake BJJ as the grappling art of choice for MMA

[MightyB]

Because the game seems to be played differently nowadays, I think Judo is going to overtake BJJ as the grappling art of choice for MMA.

Check this video (https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=696271083739885&set=vb.131670893533243&type=3&theater) out to see what I mean.

[Frost]

umm what video?? :D
Anyway i think you are wrong, BJJ isnt the grappling art of choice for MMA its the ground art of choice, and this isnt going to change it has a larger range of submissions and uses then better than judo, judo time limits mean the submission game isnt as well developed and the pinning game isnt really suitable for mma

The standing grappling art of choice is wrestling, and it always will be, it allows direct leg attacks which judo doesnt, does not reply on gripping cloth to set up its takedowns and throws, and since it doenst allow for ippon it leads from throw to pin/control better that judo, you rarely see wrestling sacrificing ground poisitional control for a big throw, you see this in judo all the time

[MightyB]

umm what video?? :D


Click your mouse on the word "Video" on my original post and it links to a FB video. You may have to be logged in to Facebook to see it.

[MightyB]

anyway - Judo's better than wrastl'n :p

Rousey will prove it in UFC 170

[MightyB]

judo time limits mean the submission game isnt as well developed and the pinning game isnt really suitable for mma


I disagree - that's really why it's better in today's MMA environment.

[YouKnowWho]

I disagree - that's really why it's better in today's MMA environment.

One of my guys has 15 years wrestling experience. Both his father and his brother are wrestling coaches. He had won the 2nd place region wrestling tournament. He didn't do very well in his 1st jacket throw tournament. IMO, if you don't train Gi environment, you won't be good in Gi environment.

Next time you have to fight your opponent in the street, will he have T-shirt on or winter jacket on? You will never know.

[MightyB]

One of my guys has 15 years wrestling experience. Both his father and his brother are wrestling coaches. He had won the 2nd place region wrestling tournament. He didn't do very well in his 1st jacket throw tournament. IMO, if you don't train Gi environment, you won't be good in Gi environment.

Next time you have to fight your opponent in the street, will he have T-shirt on or winter jacket on? You will never know.

I'm just looking at MMA - some of what Frost says is true on face value, but most Judoka now are interested in MMA - so there's a lot of no gi practice and a lot of people have brought in some of the holds and leg locks from jiu jitsu and Sambo to their clubs. So it's more well rounded than before. A good judo club will beat you and toughen you up. There's even newaza only tournaments that look like BJJ, except faster.

The rules changes meant that judoka had to be faster, more explosive, and more decisive - these are qualities that should do well in the modern MMA environment. I do think BJJ will always dominate submission grappling because that's what they do - but some of that stuff that's winning submission tourneys doesn't cross over into the MMA environment. For example, A lot of the leg submission hunters look like snakes spawning when they grapple each other - it's cool in it's own context, but there's so many opportunities for them to get their clocks rocked that to attempt to do it in MMA would be suicide.

[Kellen Bassette]

Next time you have to fight your opponent in the street, will he have T-shirt on or winter jacket on? You will never know.

Probably depends on the weather.

[MightyB]

Probably depends on the weather.

Today, 17 degrees F and cloudy.

[YouKnowWho]

there's a lot of no gi practice ...

This issue had bothered me quite a bit. Should one start from

1. Gi environment and just stay there without worrying about the no-Gi environment.
2. no Gi environment and just stay there without worrying about the Gi environment.
3. Gi environment and move into no-Gi environment,
4. no Gi environment and move into Gi environment,

When my wrestling student came to me, I started him with no-Gi environment. I didn't teach him the Gi-environment. It ends up with him to lose his 1st jacket tournament. It was my fault because I made a wrong assumption that "If you are good in no-Gi environment, you will be good in Gi environment by default". I was wrong.

So option 1 is not acceptable if one wants to compete in MMA. Option 2 is also not valid that was counter proved by my wrestling student. We have option 3 and option 4 left. Which approach is better?

[MightyB]

This issue had bothered me a lot. When my wrestling student came to me, I started him with no-Gi environment. I didn't teach him the Gi-environment. It ends up with him to lose his 1st jacket tournament. It was my fault because I made a wrong assumption that "If you are good in no-Gi environment, you will be good in Gi environment by default". I was wrong.

I'd agree. There's so many nuances to both games. I'm not sure what's better, personally I like Gi more than no Gi because I can use grip work to neutralize someone who's really aggressive.

I'd say option 3, start with Gi, and then move to No Gi.

[YouKnowWho]

I'd agree. There's so many nuances to both games. I'm not sure what's better, personally I like Gi more than no Gi because I can use grip work to neutralize someone who's really aggressive.

I'd say option 3, start with Gi, and then move to No Gi.

I like both Gi and no Gi. I have good confidence in my grip strength that's hard for my opponent to break it. I also like the no-Gi because a round can move much faster and I do like to use arm wrap, under hook, over hook.

The only concern about option 3 is after you get used to the sleeve hold, it will take time to break that habit. If you start from arm wrapping, you don't have to break that sleeve hold habit. But since option 4 will not be able to allow you to work on throws that require "pulling". Option 4 is not good either.

[Frost]

I disagree - that's really why it's better in today's MMA environment.

what no neck cranks, no guillotines, no shoulder locks, no leg locks, no pressure on the back of the head? what makes this set up better than bjj for subs?
scarf hold as a pin, pins that dont advance your position but which score an ipon after 20 secs hold down, escapes from a pin by simply breaking their legs open, no real guard game all of these are of no real use in MMA

[MightyB]

what no neck cranks, no guillotines, no shoulder locks, no leg locks, no pressure on the back of the head? what makes this set up better than bjj for subs?
scarf hold as a pin, pins that dont advance your position but which score an ipon after 20 secs hold down, escapes from a pin by simply breaking their legs open, no real guard game all of these are of no real use in MMA

Gene Lebell

[Frost]

Gene Lebell

so that's your arguement, a guy who started out as a catch guy and mixed his judo with a lifetime of catch wrestling, seriously that's your trump card :)

[MightyB]

so that's your arguement, a guy who started out as a catch guy and mixed his judo with a lifetime of catch wrestling, seriously that's your trump card :)

Yup - his stuff is easy to follow for anyone with a background in Judo. Hayastan Judo. If I can pick up on how to set up kneck cranks, shoulder locks, knee bars, calf and bicep crushes, and stfu's - anyone can.

[Frost]

Yup - his stuff is easy to follow for anyone with a background in Judo. Hayastan Judo. If I can pick up on how to set up kneck cranks, shoulder locks, knee bars, calf and bicep crushes, and stfu's - anyone can.

so your arguement is Judo as it is is much better for mma than bjj ....as long as you mix in wrestling to cover the holes in its game... that's hardly a ringing indorsement for modern judo, why not just do bjj lol

[MightyB]

so your arguement is Judo as it is is much better for mma than bjj ....as long as you mix in wrestling to cover the holes in its game... that's hardly a ringing indorsement for modern judo, why not just do bjj lol

Because Judo, when trained correctly, is way cooler than BJJ :cool:

Unless you're in a BJJ club that's full of hot chicks - that could be better. Otherwise Judo's more manly.

[pazman]

I'm not sure if we'll see Judo become the grappling art of choice for MMA, but certainly we can now laugh as the folks who still might think "BJJ+MT/everything else is ****". If you are running an MMA club and say "no thanks" to Judo, you are turning your back on:

-full body toughening
-throws and takedowns that can be easily adapted given an upright position
-a proven method of training that can be adapted to a lot of different abilities

[Kellen Bassette]

There's too many guys who are good on the ground, but not good at getting people on the ground...it presents a problem.

[YouKnowWho]

There's too many guys who are good on the ground, but not good at getting people on the ground...it presents a problem.

Because they are not willing to let their body to be thrown on the ground 200 times daily. The throwing art is not for everybody. If you don't consider break fall as "free body massage", the throwing art is not for you.

I had many students who look as strong as football players. The moment that you throw them over your head, the moment that their face turned pale and never come back.

[Dragonzbane76]

wrestling mixed with BJJ, great combo. Wrestling in itself is takedown oriented and once down about dominant position. BJJ position to submission- so they go together very neatly. Nothing wrong with Judo, great stuff, learn it all I say. Don't be boxed in by just learning one set of skills.

[Jimbo]

Because they are not willing to let their body to be thrown on the ground 200 times daily. The throwing art is not for everybody. If you don't consider break fall as "free body massage", the throwing art is not for you.

I had many students who look as strong as football players. The moment that you throw them over your head, the moment that their face turned pale and never come back.

That's one reason there's an advantage in beginning a throwing art such as judo before you are fully-grown. You get used to falling, rolling and being thrown early in life, and the body is more supple and recovers much faster. IMO, it would be more difficult (but of course not impossible) starting out as an adult.

[mooyingmantis]

Because the game seems to be played differently nowadays, I think Judo is going to overtake BJJ as the grappling art of choice for MMA.

Check this video (https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=696271083739885&set=vb.131670893533243&type=3&theater) out to see what I mean.

Your premise doesn't make sense. BJJ was created from JUDO, not jujutsu.

"Japanese Jiu-Jitsu (practiced as Judo) was introduced to the Gracie family in Brazil around 1914 by Esai Maeda, who was also known as Conde Koma. Maeda was a champion of Jiu-Jitsu and a direct student of Kano, at the Kodokan in Japan. He was born in 1878, and became a student of Judo (Kano’s Jiu-Jitsu) in 1897.

http://www.gracieacademy.com/history.asp

The website uses the terms interchangeably, yet koryu jujutsu and judo are different arts. Maeda studied Judo at the Kodokan under Kano. I have not seen any historical evidence that he studied any of the myriad styles of jujutsu.

Helio Gracie later modified what he knew to develop his own version of judo. However, it was based on the judo that he had learned.

[YouKnowWho]

IMO, the Judo guys have better "throwing resistance" and "counter throw" skill than the BJJ guys. In average, it's much harder to throw a Judo guy than to throw a BJJ guy.

[Frost]

Your premise doesn't make sense. BJJ was created from JUDO, not jujutsu.

"Japanese Jiu-Jitsu (practiced as Judo) was introduced to the Gracie family in Brazil around 1914 by Esai Maeda, who was also known as Conde Koma. Maeda was a champion of Jiu-Jitsu and a direct student of Kano, at the Kodokan in Japan. He was born in 1878, and became a student of Judo (Kano’s Jiu-Jitsu) in 1897.

http://www.gracieacademy.com/history.asp

The website uses the terms interchangeably, yet koryu jujutsu and judo are different arts. Maeda studied Judo at the Kodokan under Kano. I have not seen any historical evidence that he studied any of the myriad styles of jujutsu.

Helio Gracie later modified what he knew to develop his own version of judo. However, it was based on the judo that he had learned.

actually his premise makes perfect sense its just wrong ;) where bjj came from doesn't really matter its its own entity now, different from judo

[Frost]

There's too many guys who are good on the ground, but not good at getting people on the ground...it presents a problem.

seriously, have you missed the point that north American mma is overrun with college wrestlers??

[Kellen Bassette]

seriously, have you missed the point that north American mma is overrun with college wrestlers??

LOL...is that that you got out of what I said? :rolleyes: I don't see where I made any statement about what is, or isn't, employed in MMA.

I was suggesting that while BJJ excels on the ground, it's often not as good with takedowns as wrestling, judo, sambo, ect...

[MightyB]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zg8O9dyB5io

Osu! ......

[Dragonzbane76]

IMO, the Judo guys have better "throwing resistance" and "counter throw" skill than the BJJ guys. In average, it's much harder to throw a Judo guy than to throw a BJJ guy.

Well considering the whole game plan of someone in BJJ is to get to the ground it's kinda null and void. I agree the manner of delivery is important (you don't want to land on your head or something) but most takedowns Ive seen from BJJ is an entanglement drag to the ground. That's why I think wrestling and BJJ together make a very good compliment to one another. wrestling has excellent takedowns and BJJ has excellent submissions.

[MightyB]

Well considering the whole game plan of someone in BJJ is to get to the ground it's kinda null and void. I agree the manner of delivery is important (you don't want to land on your head or something) but most takedowns Ive seen from BJJ is an entanglement drag to the ground. That's why I think wrestling and BJJ together make a very good compliment to one another. wrestling has excellent takedowns and BJJ has excellent submissions.

Did you not even see the video I just posted???

Judo has both excellent takedowns and excellent submissions. And it's played at a very high pace. The slow submission game is going to go the way of the dodo bird. MMA is about money, and that means fans. Fans want explosive, decisive, impressive winners - ground humping for submissions is boring.

[YouKnowWho]

A good throw will always put you in dominate position. IMO, it's not a good idea just depending on your "pull guard" and not trying to develop your full throwing skill.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=svwwpIeqkSQ

[YouKnowWho]

Did you not even see the video I just posted???

Judo has both excellent takedowns and excellent submissions. And it's played at a very high pace. The slow submission game is going to go the way of the dodo bird. MMA is about money, and that means fans. Fans want explosive, decisive, impressive winners - ground humping for submissions is boring.
That "hip throw" make the whole fight worthwhile to watch.

[MightyB]

Cool clip YouKnowWho

Here's another...

http://youtu.be/rRNHFuNL0mc?t=4m22s

[sanjuro_ronin]

BJJ submissions will always be the dominate SUBMISSION part of MMA and with good reason.
BJJ subs are to Judo subs what chess is to checkers.
Sorry.

That said, very few things can end a fight like a good throw that lands someone on their head or knocks the air out of them.
That said, judokas MUST train no-gi for that and while more or, to be honest,m if you are a high level judoka you think Olympics, not MMA.
Now, AFTER the Olympics or if the Olympics don't work out you can always fall back on MMA ( after taking up MT or what not).

[MightyB]

you guys are just wrong :) You've been nut riding for so long that you got a little too much bjj jizz on the brain. The subs that are used in MMA aren't extremely high-level BJJ Black Belt material.

Here's another example of Judo in MMA


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z2EDzlw8xHU

[MightyB]

Judo's going to end up being a very important base art in MMA


http://youtu.be/nx0mnq28K-w

BJJ is great at what it does and the subs that it brought to the game were amazing, unfortunately everyone knows the high percentage subs and escapes - so high level BJJ is great at submission grappling - but with where MMA is going - it's not going to hold up against a high caliber Judo fighter. The BJJer will lose the takedown game, and will have an extremely hard time setting up any of the common high percentage subs (everyone knows them now) - especially when they're getting pounded.

[MightyB]

Now Swanson is BJJ and boxing - but it's his harai goshi that set up his win in that last ufc clip, and you see that he's using a lot of classic Judo throws in his highlight clip - where I'm going with my thought is that BJJ is great - but after high blue, or purple - you've done enough for MMA. The skills that are going to get you noticed and get the fans excited aren't going to happen on the ground in a high level submission chess match. Fans will flock to big throws. And MMA is about fans.

[Frost]

Nutriding? You are the one argueing a silly case, judo is in anything moving away from what is useful for MMA, no direct leg attacks? great off you go to wrestling class before you get in the ring then, no pressure on the back of the neck in chokes? right off to sambo or bjj to learn guillotines then, only allowed to attack the elbow and the neck, right off to sambo and BJJ to learn leg locks, shoulder locks, neck cranks etc no real guard work as you can just turtle and get stood up, right then off to BJJ to learn the guard, not to mention to learn how to avoid getting pounded from turtle, 20 second pin rule means you end up learning holddowns that don’t lead to subs, or even lead to a good position, which is great if you want to pin someone, but if its MMA off you go to learn how to advance from one pin to another
In judo I can break a hold by simple putting my leg over there’s, great try that in MMA and watch yourself get pounded out from half guard
Not to mention the two biggest elephants in the room you are ignoring,
1) the fact that the ippon rule leads to throws which either separate you from your opponent, or sacrifice your position on the ground for a ippon decision, ippon seonage is a classic example of a throw which leaves you holding the arm but without any real control of your opponent, and countless examples in comp of guys landing a big throw and then rolling over their opponent into a bad position, great for judo but NOT ideal for an art where the fight starts when your opponents back hits the mat
2) and the big one, the fact you aren’t wearing a big white suit in MMA which makes the grips, distance and leverage for throws so different
No no one is saying judo doesn’t work in the cage, there are countless examples of it doing so, but saying judo is going to replace BJJ as the sub art of choice is silly, as is inferring its going to replace wrestling as the takedown art of choice

[YouKnowWho]

Cool clip YouKnowWho

Here's another...

http://youtu.be/rRNHFuNL0mc?t=4m22s

That was a beautiful "over hook, horse back kick" throw. He did kick both of his opponent's legs off the ground and not just block and trip his opponent's leg. That required good "single leg balance". You just don't see that everyday.

[YouKnowWho]

you guys are just wrong :) You've been nut riding for so long that you got a little too much bjj jizz on the brain. The subs that are used in MMA aren't extremely high-level BJJ Black Belt material.

Here's another example of Judo in MMA


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z2EDzlw8xHU

Let your opponent to fly over your leg. get a dominate position, and end the fight. What else do you need? Some people had spent training time to develop serious throwing skill. It's so much fun to watch these 2 clips. Thanks for sharing.

[MightyB]

http://imageshack.com/a/img547/8999/00gu.gif
http://imageshack.com/a/img5/5853/rv8.gif
http://imageshack.com/a/img30/2880/p5i.gif
http://imageshack.com/a/img801/5994/ze1.gif

Apparently he does train a lot of Judo to compliment BJJ and prefers stand up fighting. He's the ideal fighter IMO.


"I’m a fan of all the different aspects of MMA – I’m a fan of judo, I’m a fan of wrestling, I’m a fan of boxing and jiu-jitsu. I’m a fan of all of it, and I’m able to see the different aspects and what it takes to make an MMA fighter and I feel like I’m a little bit more open-minded to say what works and what doesn’t and not what style.”

- Cub Swanson

[Dragonzbane76]

Judo has both excellent takedowns and excellent submissions. And it's played at a very high pace. The slow submission game is going to go the way of the dodo bird. MMA is about money, and that means fans. Fans want explosive, decisive, impressive winners - ground humping for submissions is boring.

don't need to repeat something someone already said.


sanjuro_ronin


BJJ submissions will always be the dominate SUBMISSION part of MMA and with good reason.
BJJ subs are to Judo subs what chess is to checkers.
Sorry.


slow????? most of the ones on this are not that slow IMO.

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=video&cd=2&cad=rja&ved=0CDgQtwIwAQ&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DHAL f3esHQJ0&ei=OVvgUsCvOoONygGi4YEQ&usg=AFQjCNE-hAERTepPfpQJpvyTz4EJnqwrAw&sig2=ptKEmQFTcZP8dRkdi_ON0g

[YouKnowWho]

http://imageshack.com/a/img547/8999/00gu.gif
http://imageshack.com/a/img5/5853/rv8.gif
http://imageshack.com/a/img30/2880/p5i.gif
http://imageshack.com/a/img801/5994/ze1.gif

Apparently he does train a lot of Judo to compliment BJJ and prefers stand up fighting. He's the ideal fighter IMO.

I have always told my guys if they can be good in "head lock leg block",

http://imageshack.com/a/img201/3762/johnleglift.jpg

they will always end with dominate position on the ground. The guy in the following clip hasn't developed his "horse back kick" power yet. But he is moving toward that direction.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uAwsP6X9rG0

[MightyB]

don't need to repeat something someone already said.



slow????? most of the ones on this are not that slow IMO.

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=video&cd=2&cad=rja&ved=0CDgQtwIwAQ&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DHAL f3esHQJ0&ei=OVvgUsCvOoONygGi4YEQ&usg=AFQjCNE-hAERTepPfpQJpvyTz4EJnqwrAw&sig2=ptKEmQFTcZP8dRkdi_ON0g

Well - you and I are on a agreement on this. Every one of those subs is taught and drilled in Judo.
And now for something really exciting.

A look at BJJ (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HFDsgucTGzA#t=49)

Yawn - I must've fell asleep there... sorry about that - is it over, did they make out? Is one of them pregnant? :D
so boring.

Now to wake up

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_hLxhmyVVxU

[sanjuro_ronin]

don't need to repeat something someone already said.



slow????? most of the ones on this are not that slow IMO.

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=video&cd=2&cad=rja&ved=0CDgQtwIwAQ&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DHAL f3esHQJ0&ei=OVvgUsCvOoONygGi4YEQ&usg=AFQjCNE-hAERTepPfpQJpvyTz4EJnqwrAw&sig2=ptKEmQFTcZP8dRkdi_ON0g


Not sure what the "slow???" is about.
That BJJ and Judo share the same core subs is quite obvious BUT to suggest that the typical judoka is at the same submission level as a typical BJJ player is incorrect.
When was the last time a Judoka won a submission grappling tournament?
The elite submission grapplers compete in the Abu Dhabi and they all have BJJ back ground.

It is not a slight on Judo, heck I am a Judo Shodan remember?

It just is what it is and the simple fact is in BJJ it is submission FIRST and throw second and in Judo it is the reverse.
Typically.

It should be noted that this IS changing so...

[MightyB]

Shocking!!! Dana White says Jiu Jitsu is Boring!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tyJWxVDOm_g

[MightyB]

From a forum dedicated to BJJ


I think he is referring to the fact that they avoid using their BJJ in the cage.

Fighters have openly commented on this. UFC doesnt want to see jiu jitsu. Their audience wants to see stand and bang. Thats how you become popular and make money in the UFC and the fighters know this.

BJJ is boring to the crowd and more and more fighters are avoiding its use, even BJJ black belts, which makes it difficult to realize how good they actually are.

Read more: http://www.jiujitsuforums.com/discussion/33306/ufc-blackbelts/p1#ixzz2rFKgdu49

[sanjuro_ronin]

JJ is boring?
Wow, that is brand new information !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[MightyB]

JJ is boring?
Wow, that is brand new information !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

and back to my original premise when I started this thread:

I think Judo is going to overtake BJJ as the grappling art of choice for MMA

Because the game seems to be played differently nowadays, I think Judo is going to overtake BJJ as the grappling art of choice for MMA.

[sanjuro_ronin]

and back to my original premise when I started this thread:

I think Judo is going to overtake BJJ as the grappling art of choice for MMA

Because the game seems to be played differently nowadays, I think Judo is going to overtake BJJ as the grappling art of choice for MMA.


The first and foremost focus of ANY competitive judoka is Judo competition FIRST.
Do I think you will see more throws in MMA?
yes of course, why not?
Does that mean you will get MMA guys going into Judo?
Nope, they will either bring in a judoka or simply adapt those throws to MMA, which is what they are already doing.
MMA is becoming a standalone system that simply borrows what it needs/is the flavour of the month.
People don't cross train in styles anymore for MMA, they adapt what they need from the style to MMA.

[MightyB]

they will either bring in a judoka or simply adapt those throws to MMA, which is what they are already doing.


You're saying what I'm saying... sheesh. All I know is that the world's looking better for the sport of Judo and the outlook for a post Judo BB is shiny. :cool:

Gyms want throwers to show 'em how it's done.

[sanjuro_ronin]

You're saying what I'm saying... sheesh. All I know is that the world's looking better for the sport of Judo and the outlook for a post Judo BB is shiny. :cool:

Gyms want throwers to show 'em how it's done.

You are saying that Judo will overtake BJJ as the grappling art of choice, the fact is that the "current" trend in MMA is to take TECHNIQUES, not styles, and adapt them to the MMA game.

[Dragonzbane76]

I'm not saying that judo isn't a great art in itself. I'm saying that BJJ is the core for submissions. Of course Judo has the basic subs. BJJ has. They are connected. I still don't get your "slow" comment. Maybe I'm slow. :) The ground game can be "boring" to those whom don't study it in itself. But everyone has there opinion on it. I don't see BJJ taking a back seat if that's what you are stating. It's a staple in the MMA world that is borrowed heavily from. I would like to see more throws in MMA myself. It adds flavor and spice.

[Frost]

he also said the same thing about wrestling, and i missed the part where he talked about judo being so exciting?? Dana loves stand up and striking, he hates the ground work hence his favours uys like dan hardy and keeps them around even when they lose

So again i missed the part where the rational of going to a grappling style which doesn't allow leg attacks, makes you wear a gi, doesnt allow certain chokes, shoulder locks OR leg locks is somehow going to revolutionise MMA?

Oh and for the record free style wrestling has shoulder throws

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YQ2ikwyx5Z4
trips
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SGG48nPqPRg
head and arm throws
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FGn7a8K-xDs
hip throw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dY3NgKb4pTo
and so on

[omarthefish]

...The elite submission grapplers compete in the Abu Dhabi and they all have BJJ back ground.....

...or SAMBO. ;)

"SAMBO"....BJJ kryptonite.

p.s.
Totally arguable that Rousimar Palhares may not have been banned if it was armlocks he held too long. BJJ folks tend to be kind of funny about leg locks. (knee bars etc.)

[MightyB]

I'll throw a little love at BJJ


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZgRspe1i7KE&feature=youtu.be

[sanjuro_ronin]

...or SAMBO. ;)

"SAMBO"....BJJ kryptonite.

p.s.
Totally arguable that Rousimar Palhares may not have been banned if it was armlocks he held too long. BJJ folks tend to be kind of funny about leg locks. (knee bars etc.)

Yep, there are a few Sambo guys that are high level submission grapplers.
But...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ADCC_Submission_Wrestling_World_Championship

[Frost]

[QUOTE=omarthefish;1260533]...or SAMBO. ;)

"SAMBO"....BJJ kryptonite.

really..tell that to werdum after he sent fedor to nap town lol

[Dragonzbane76]

I wouldn't call sambo the Kryptonite of BJJ....only real difference is the more intense training in leg locks and such from sambo.

[Kellen Bassette]

I wouldn't call sambo the Kryptonite of BJJ....only real difference is the more intense training in leg locks and such from sambo.

Well that and its' Russian origin. Everyone knows the Russians are harder....:cool:

[omarthefish]

...or SAMBO. ;)

"SAMBO"....BJJ kryptonite.

really..tell that to werdum after he sent fedor to nap town lol

Well, actually, I prefer BJJ to SAMBO. I just sort of see a weakness in BJJ vs. Leglocks. I see it sort of like how Judo changed the rules after BJJ guys started dominating with certain tactics. In a similar vein, BJJ orgs have chagned rules in response to certain SAMBO tactics. The new 50/50 rules are a classsic example. In a SAMBO match, 50/50 is an exciting leg lock battle. In BJJ, it's an "exciting" game of stall untill the round ends because both sides just want to pull guard somehow.

i prefer BJJ because, and the gongfu nerds may not get this, but, I am an intellectual nerd and BJJ is a nerd's sport. Serously. Grappling in general is pretty ****ing demanding but amond the main choices these says: BJJ, Judo, Sambo, Greco, Freestyle, Shooto....BJJ is, IMHO, by far the most friendly to the the intellectual-not-a-jock-type. I seriously admire SAMBO (reference my previous post on this thread) but really prefer BJJ.

That being said, the only folks to really give BJJ folks a hard time at Abu Dabi have generally been either otehr BJJ folks or SAMBO dudes.

Single exceptions to the rule do not obviate the rule.

[omarthefish]

p.s.

Sorry for all the typos.

[Frost]

Well, actually, I prefer BJJ to SAMBO. I just sort of see a weakness in BJJ vs. Leglocks. I see it sort of like how Judo changed the rules after BJJ guys started dominating with certain tactics. In a similar vein, BJJ orgs have chagned rules in response to certain SAMBO tactics. The new 50/50 rules are a classsic example. In a SAMBO match, 50/50 is an exciting leg lock battle. In BJJ, it's an "exciting" game of stall untill the round ends because both sides just want to pull guard somehow.

i prefer BJJ because, and the gongfu nerds may not get this, but, I am an intellectual nerd and BJJ is a nerd's sport. Serously. Grappling in general is pretty ****ing demanding but amond the main choices these says: BJJ, Judo, Sambo, Greco, Freestyle, Shooto....BJJ is, IMHO, by far the most friendly to the the intellectual-not-a-jock-type. I seriously admire SAMBO (reference my previous post on this thread) but really prefer BJJ.

That being said, the only folks to really give BJJ folks a hard time at Abu Dabi have generally been either otehr BJJ folks or SAMBO dudes.

Single exceptions to the rule do not obviate the rule.

that would hold up if sambo was dominating the no gi circuit with its leglocks, the fact is at the last adcc there was i think 4 or 5 wins by leglock, dean lister was the only sambo fighter to pull one off, and he is also a BJJ blackbelt, at the 2012 there was something like 13 wins via leglock all but one from BJJ blackbelts, regardless of the rules in BJJ gi for the lower belts, the fact is leglocks have always been popular in BJJ especially when in no gi, royler used to rule ADCC with his footlocks back in the 90s so its hardly their achilles heel so to speak :)

[MightyB]

Submission grappling isn't MMA - it's a component, but one that can be nullified - IMO *especially leg locks, with a little knowledge. For instance, having live toes, which one would assume wrestlers would have by default.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O4c4ZkpB668

The head pass / advanced BJJ skill they're raving about is one of the first things you learn and drill in Judo newaza, except judoka call it an Osae-Komi transition drill.

[MightyB]

The head pass / advanced BJJ skill they're raving about is one of the first things you learn and drill in Judo newaza, except judoka call it an Osae-Komi transition drill.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SYLDYW_lZcY

[wenshu]

He didn't do very well in his 1st jacket throw tournament. IMO, if you don't train Gi environment, you won't be good in Gi environment.

Goes both ways old man. A jacket wrestler 没有跤衣 . . .ai papi! It's curtains. Or at least he'll wish he had some to hold on to.


Because the game seems to be played differently nowadays, I think Judo is going to overtake BJJ as the grappling art of choice for MMA.

Competitive Judo is undoubtedly a viable entry into professional MMA and while I harbor an appreciation for bold assertions, frost is right, changing over a decade of competitive specialization isn't so black and white.

[wenshu]

i prefer BJJ because, and the gongfu nerds may not get this, but, I am an intellectual nerd and BJJ is a nerd's sport. Serously. Grappling in general is pretty ****ing demanding but amond the main choices these says: BJJ, Judo, Sambo, Greco, Freestyle, Shooto....BJJ is, IMHO, by far the most friendly to the the intellectual-not-a-jock-type. I seriously admire SAMBO (reference my previous post on this thread) but really prefer BJJ.

This is actually kind of true. I don't think it is that intellectual, it's just checkers but it is the most bad ass low impact option. Nerds don't handle face punching or body slamming very well.

[MightyB]

Even though this is from choreographed fight scenes, it's a good example how Judo can be incorporated (techniques are named throughout the clip).


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1BmDS8IxSaM#t=431

[bawang]

bjj is judo FOO

[MightyB]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6FgvYw4T-M4&list=FL1GeMsNvNernv9-MaEGN6FQ
..........

[wenshu]

bjj is judo FOO

maybe a hundred yeas ago, ace



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6FgvYw4T-M4&list=FL1GeMsNvNernv9-MaEGN6FQ
..........

Bad hip hop from the Balkans isn't doing your argument any favors.

[MightyB]

and more evidence advancing my hypothesis.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pefuh0VJQ5Q#t=555

[MightyB]

maybe a hundred yeas ago, ace.

Not quite a hundred. This circa 1990 video shows when BJJ and Judo were still fundamentally the same. The Gracies actually had decent takedowns and they were still hitting the bread and butter judo newaza techniques. The difference at this point in history was in how the Gracies trained to apply their judo in that it was purely meant for street fighting and vale tudo and not Olympic style judo matches.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tbBPUy622bw

[MightyB]

The more BJJ gets back to its roots of self defense, the more it looks like Judo


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tXSW6cSYWBk#t=121

[wenshu]

The difference at this point in history was in how the Gracies trained to apply their judo in that it was purely meant for street fighting and vale tudo and not Olympic style judo matches.

That's all the difference in the world.

surry brah, judo is great but one successful person (0.01%) doesn't even begin to indicate a shift in entrenched styles. Your hyped up subjective bias is overriding your common sense and depends on conveniently disregarding the difference in self defense BJJ, competitive BJJ and MMA style BJJ/wrestling hybrid.

http://www.mmafighting.com/2013/6/1/4385780/technique-talk-dave-camarillo-judo-mma-ronda-rousey-blueprint-mma-news

[MightyB]

That's all the difference in the world.

Your hyped up subjective bias is overriding your common sense and depends on conveniently disregarding the difference in self defense BJJ, competitive BJJ and MMA style BJJ/wrestling hybrid.

http://www.mmafighting.com/2013/6/1/4385780/technique-talk-dave-camarillo-judo-mma-ronda-rousey-blueprint-mma-news

And one could say that you're guilty of the same bias (when thinking that people only practice for the Olympics when they do Judo.) :)

Good find BTW with the audio link.

[MightyB]

I find this annoying with BJJ

Rules 6.4.5 & 6.4.6 SERIOUS FOULS, When an athlete on the ground stands to escape combat and does not return to combat on the ground. and
When an athlete breaks the grip of the opponent pulling guard and does not return to combat on the ground

It's easy to pick apart Judo for it's new rules, but these two destroy the spirit of Judo in BJJ. Basically you have to groundfight with a pu$$y. At least they penalize 6.4.1 When an athlete kneels or sits without having a grip of any kind on the opponent. otherwise it'd be completely ridiculous

I think both sports could be made better simply by on the Judo side, a winner has to win by submission on the ground, on the BJJ side, they have to be able to take you down and keep you there.

[Frost]

hard to see judo replacing BJJ when judo is in decline and BJJ still growing strong
http://theselfdefenceexpert.com/why-bjj-will-overtake-judo-and-have-more-participants-by-2020/

but of course you will ignore this, just like you ignored the whole fact your premise is flawed because free style is the take down art of choice not BJJ, and you ignored the fact judo has no leg locks, no shoulder locks, no neck cranks, no guard work etc

[wenshu]

And one could say that you're guilty of the same bias

No. I personally prefer Judo over BJJ, I'm actively avoiding subjective bias in favor of common sense and the passive observation of decades of entrenched practice.



(when thinking that people only practice for the Olympics when they do Judo.) :)


So there's a lot of folks practicing no-gi Judo?

Cause I thought that was just called wrestling.

[MightyB]

hard to see judo replacing BJJ when judo is in decline and BJJ still growing strong
http://theselfdefenceexpert.com/why-bjj-will-overtake-judo-and-have-more-participants-by-2020/

but of course you will ignore this, just like you ignored the whole fact your premise is flawed because free style is the take down art of choice not BJJ, and you ignored the fact judo has no leg locks, no shoulder locks, no neck cranks, no guard work etc

I didn't ignore you, you're just wrong - Judo Leglocks http://judoinfo.com/leglocks.htm
Judo neck cranks http://judoinfo.com/kubiwaza.htm

Open guard all day - half guard all day - butterfly - the "elbow only" thing is misunderstood because there are plenty of locks against the shoulder - your precious kimura and americana being just two labelled under ude-garami, sankaku-garami is omopolata... It's all there bro.

Competition has rules, so does BJJ competition - most of those same moves you're criticizing Judo from prohibiting (leg locks) aren't allowed in IBJJF competition until you're a brown or black belt. Spinal locks or a neck crank is not allowed at any level IBJJF. Look it up yourself http://ibjjf.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/20130123_RuleBookIBJJF_v2.pdf 6.3.2

The main reason BJJ is gaining popularity (in America) is a combination of things - but mostly it's bad marketing by the various Judo organizations and a great marketing machine in BJJ (Gracies).

----

Good article BTW. Sounds like that guy and me share a lot of the same opinions. Judo when played right is a heck of a rush, but BJJ is easier. Plus, the marketing.

[MightyB]

So there's a lot of folks practicing no-gi Judo?

Cause I thought that was just called wrestling.

Yes (in practice, not competition), because it's fun, and often most clubs allow all techniques and go for submissions (although a clean ippon from a throw still ends the match).

[MightyB]

This thread actually makes me realize how bad a job at marketing Judo has done. There are so many submissions (many of which would be good surprise tactics for BJJ) in Judo.

Somebody even started categorizing them - look at this example http://www.memrise.com/course/24536/judo-armlocks-kansetsuwaza/1/

[MightyB]

This style of Judo isn't taught anywhere outside of a BJJ school

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jhGH9uOkP5I

So I'm willing to Append my original hypothesis to: True Judo is a better grappling art than BJJ for modern MMA, but unfortunately real Judo is going extinct.

[Frost]

Why are you clutching at straws like this? all the evidence points to judo declining and the fact is the art isn’t geared towards no gi striking take downs

BJJ allows some leglocks at various belt levels (even if the reaping rule is silly), and the ever bigger difference is that a large number of BJJ athletes will compete in no gi competitions as well, their clubs actively encourage it and train for it and those comps allow leglocks and neck cranks consequently they drill them and use them in no gi rolling.
And the fact they encourage their guys to compete in no gi, and most have several no gi classes a week means they also train takedowns without the gi, takedowns which include leg attacks, under and overhooks body locks etc. Again when did your judo club last take the gi off and do a dedicated class for no gi takedowns? Mine has never done this,

How many judo clubs in your area have an active no gi team with dedicated nights specifically geared towards training for no gi? My judo club doesn’t, and my coach cant think of one in our region, some guys on their own might compete but no club encourages it or trains specifically for it
The simple fact is most judo clubs concentrate on…well JUDO not training for no gi or MMA, so to make your judo work in MMA you have to make a lot of adjustments and do a lot of additional outside training, why would a fighter do this when he can get that training specifically at a BJJ gym? It simply makes no sense what so ever
I asked at my judo gym last night when they last drilled leglocks or neck cranks (because ive not even seen them mentioned in the 6 months I have been there) no one not even a couple of black belts could remember the last time they did this,

I hit a rolling omoplata last night but let it go because it’s a shoulder lock, both the kimura and the keylock attack the shoulder first, are they actually allowed in competition still?
I honestly don’t know which is why im asking, because I was lead to believe only locks which attack the elbow are allowed, and the whole point of the key lock and kimura is to take the slack out of the shoulder then pop it

The guard is simply not developed in judo these days as it is in BJJ The quick stand ups, limited mat time etc mean people turtle they don’t go flat on their back and work from there for a long time like you see BJJ guys doing. Consequently their guard game isn’t as well developed, of course they have very fast arm bars and chokes, but both rely on the gi mainly to work , and since they don’t work no gi the handles they use on the body are different as are their grips as you well know.
(the fact that historically it did have a good guard game, and leg locks and leg takedowns is immaterial, if you are not training those things week in and week out you wont use them)

And then we come to the BIG problem you still haven’t answered, the fact that BJJ isn’t the grappling art of choice for MMA, it’s the ground art of choice, the standing art of choice is wrestling (freestyle and even Greco roman) and judo will never replace these arts as the takedown art of choice because these arts are:
A) More readily available in the states (taught at school and uni level) than judo
B) Have a bigger pool of coaches to draw from than judo, lots of schools colleges etc have coaches and lots of guys moving into MMA have a wrestling background in the states and thus links to wrestling coaches which their clubs can use
C) Have much better cross over for MMA than judo, they are already no gi arts, already take place at the same distance in terms of clinch and shots, judo because of the gi takes place at a different distance than wrestling or MMA (another adjustment that has to be made) they already teach leg takedowns, body lock throws etc so you only have to adjust to striking, not to striking distance, grips, different attacks etc.
Now I say this as someone who has never don a bjj class in his life, and who now studies and loves judo, but we have to be realistic, arts which teach no gi takedowns will always have an advantage in that realm over those which rely mainly on a gi, and those which allow unlimited time on the ground and restrict fewer submissions will always have an advantage over arts which limit both time and submissions
And any sane person looking to train for a no gi environment where subs are not limited will gravitate towards no gi submission heavy arts, this has always been the way and will continue to be the way

[MightyB]

Why are you clutching at straws like this? all the evidence points to judo declining and the fact is the art isn’t geared towards no gi striking take downs

BJJ allows some leglocks at various belt levels (even if the reaping rule is silly), and the ever bigger difference is that a large number of BJJ athletes will compete in no gi competitions as well, their clubs actively encourage it and train for it and those comps allow leglocks and neck cranks consequently they drill them and use them in no gi rolling.
And the fact they encourage their guys to compete in no gi, and most have several no gi classes a week means they also train takedowns without the gi, takedowns which include leg attacks, under and overhooks body locks etc. Again when did your judo club last take the gi off and do a dedicated class for no gi takedowns? Mine has never done this,

How many judo clubs in your area have an active no gi team with dedicated nights specifically geared towards training for no gi? My judo club doesn’t, and my coach cant think of one in our region, some guys on their own might compete but no club encourages it or trains specifically for it
The simple fact is most judo clubs concentrate on…well JUDO not training for no gi or MMA, so to make your judo work in MMA you have to make a lot of adjustments and do a lot of additional outside training, why would a fighter do this when he can get that training specifically at a BJJ gym? It simply makes no sense what so ever
I asked at my judo gym last night when they last drilled leglocks or neck cranks (because ive not even seen them mentioned in the 6 months I have been there) no one not even a couple of black belts could remember the last time they did this,

I hit a rolling omoplata last night but let it go because it’s a shoulder lock, both the kimura and the keylock attack the shoulder first, are they actually allowed in competition still?
I honestly don’t know which is why im asking, because I was lead to believe only locks which attack the elbow are allowed, and the whole point of the key lock and kimura is to take the slack out of the shoulder then pop it

The guard is simply not developed in judo these days as it is in BJJ The quick stand ups, limited mat time etc mean people turtle they don’t go flat on their back and work from there for a long time like you see BJJ guys doing. Consequently their guard game isn’t as well developed, of course they have very fast arm bars and chokes, but both rely on the gi mainly to work , and since they don’t work no gi the handles they use on the body are different as are their grips as you well know.
(the fact that historically it did have a good guard game, and leg locks and leg takedowns is immaterial, if you are not training those things week in and week out you wont use them)

And then we come to the BIG problem you still haven’t answered, the fact that BJJ isn’t the grappling art of choice for MMA, it’s the ground art of choice, the standing art of choice is wrestling (freestyle and even Greco roman) and judo will never replace these arts as the takedown art of choice because these arts are:
A) More readily available in the states (taught at school and uni level) than judo
B) Have a bigger pool of coaches to draw from than judo, lots of schools colleges etc have coaches and lots of guys moving into MMA have a wrestling background in the states and thus links to wrestling coaches which their clubs can use
C) Have much better cross over for MMA than judo, they are already no gi arts, already take place at the same distance in terms of clinch and shots, judo because of the gi takes place at a different distance than wrestling or MMA (another adjustment that has to be made) they already teach leg takedowns, body lock throws etc so you only have to adjust to striking, not to striking distance, grips, different attacks etc.
Now I say this as someone who has never don a bjj class in his life, and who now studies and loves judo, but we have to be realistic, arts which teach no gi takedowns will always have an advantage in that realm over those which rely mainly on a gi, and those which allow unlimited time on the ground and restrict fewer submissions will always have an advantage over arts which limit both time and submissions
And any sane person looking to train for a no gi environment where subs are not limited will gravitate towards no gi submission heavy arts, this has always been the way and will continue to be the way

I think it's a regional/cultural difference. And this could be a Michigan thing, but I've trained with three clubs - our clubs were in decline probably well before the UK, so our clubs had to adapt early to keep students. So to answer your questions, we have newaza only tournaments, cross trained techniques (primarily Sambo because some teams did compete Sambo), and have a lot of crossover competitors that will do no-gi grappling tournaments but there's also a strong wrestling culture here, so most students come in with a wrestling background.

[MightyB]

And now a lovely vision of what Judo looks like in MMA


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GgpJ4TVIg6c

[MightyB]

I hit a rolling omoplata last night but let it go because it’s a shoulder lock, both the kimura and the keylock attack the shoulder first, are they actually allowed in competition still?
I honestly don’t know which is why im asking, because I was lead to believe only locks which attack the elbow are allowed, and the whole point of the key lock and kimura is to take the slack out of the shoulder then pop it

you can kimura and keylock - for whatever reason, they will classify that as an elbow attack. The rolling omoplata (sankaku garami) varies by competition. Technically it isn't considered a banned technique. Here's the last of the more famous matches it was used in 2007. It's a variation on the omoplata, but it's quite clearly a rolling leg attack on arm targeting the shoulder. He used it as a pin. Start at the 4:30 min mark.

http://youtu.be/gCZ0Be0e4v4

[wenshu]

And now a lovely vision of what Judo looks like in MMA


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GgpJ4TVIg6c

Yes, we know that this entire thread is just click bait based on an over hyped outlier. I applaud your trolling tactics, but it is painfully obvious that you aren't actually arguing that "Judo is going to overtake BJJ as the grappling art of choice . . ." rather "Judo should be the grappling art of choice". In that case, unfortunately, the click through rate on your thread would be like 12 and it would fall off the front page.

[MightyB]

Yes, we know that this entire thread is just click bait based on an over hyped outlier. I applaud your trolling tactics, but it is painfully obvious that you aren't actually arguing that "Judo is going to overtake BJJ as the grappling art of choice . . ." rather "Judo should be the grappling art of choice". In that case, unfortunately, the click through rate on your thread would be like 12 and it would fall off the front page.

and you agree. It should be... Rhonda keeps winning and you're going to see more and more -

polish off your black belt if you have 'em because people want to know it. A friend of mine from an old defunct Judo club just got asked come out of "retirement" and train guys at a MMA school in Saginaw

[Frost]

This style of Judo isn't taught anywhere outside of a BJJ school

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jhGH9uOkP5I

So I'm willing to Append my original hypothesis to: True Judo is a better grappling art than BJJ for modern MMA, but unfortunately real Judo is going extinct.

just saw this makes me wish i hadnt bothered replying, you cant even get your story straight lol

[Frost]

and you agree. It should be... Rhonda keeps winning and you're going to see more and more -

polish off your black belt if you have 'em because people want to know it. A friend of mine from an old defunct Judo club just got asked come out of "retirement" and train guys at a MMA school in Saginaw

oh wow a world class athlete from the only real female combat art (wrestling for women is still only a few decades old, womens bjj is very weak) is doing well in MMA, and this is your reason judo is going to take over the MMA world? forget the fact rhonda herself says she isnt a typical judo person, forget the fact her coach is a catch wrestler as well as judo guy, and forget the talent pool she is going against isnt half as good as that found in womens judo....:eek::eek:

Of course over in the real world in the mens MMA division where wrestling and BJJ are as strong and have the same depth of talent as mens judo its a different story, but hey dont let that cloud your judgement

[MightyB]

just saw this makes me wish i hadnt bothered replying, you cant even get your story straight lol

what??? I'll rehash the whole story to make it easier for you to follow :p

My story's been consistent from the start.

I'll break it down... Today's MMA is about thrilling audiences and making money. Judo's better than BJJ for that. And, I mentioned that BJJ is getting overspecialized but I did acknowledge that it is the superior art for submission grappling, but submission grappling isn't MMA. And, I posted clips backing my claims up. I then posted clips and BJJ forum comments backing up that BJJ is perceived as boring, even by Dana White and that even BJJ black belts are reluctant to use a lot of their BJJ in the ring.

Then a couple of posters talked about wrestling, which is valid, but I mentioned that wrestling doesn't have subs. I even included video clips highlighting some differences between an Olympic wrestler's style and an Olympic Judoka's style (differences that can be attributed to habitual training tendencies earlier in their careers, to me it's looking like the Judoka had an easier time making the adjustment to MMA by the way).

And then I mentioned that Judo is better because it has takedowns and submissions. Then a couple of posters went on about perceived weaknesses in Judo's sub arsenal, which I proved false by showing video evidence including links to techniques that completely contradicted the claim that it doesn't have certain subs.

So what you have left is peeps saying that the Gi is why Judo is somehow inferior, like it's something that a person with half a brain couldn't overcome by simply starting to train without a gi... but I find a clip of overspecialized gi work, that no longer even exists in Judo and I make a comment about that - but guess what, that's gi BJJ brah - and it's not relevant to MMA anyway.

Soooo... what you got? nuth'n - that's why you shouldn't have posted :p

Wenshu makes a good point with changing my statement to Judo should...

[MightyB]

Of course over in the real world in the mens MMA division where wrestling and BJJ are as strong and have the same depth of talent as mens judo its a different story, but hey dont let that cloud your judgement

go back and look at the clips I've posted. They aren't all elite MMAers and elite Judoka and they're pulling it off.

But don't worry, I'm pretty sure my hypothesis is right and you'll soon start seeing a lot more Judo in MMA. More Harai Goshi, Tai otoshi, etc.

[MightyB]

One thing you got right though - Judo's terrible at marketing. Going back to Wenshu's Judo should comment

He's right, Judo has everything going for it, but at the same time it's its own worst enemy. For example, you practice Judo and didn't know about the subs, and your coaches could care less - because, as Sanjuru pointed out - Judo's Olympic driven and stubborn. But that won't stop evolution. There are a lot of Judo Black Belts out there - and as interest grows (because of people like Rousey) people are going to look for Judo. It's more accessible than BJJ, and a heck of a lot more cost effective. So the ball's in the average Judo coaches' corner - are they going to be dogmatic or progressive?

[wenshu]

Going back to Wenshu's Judo should comment

He's right, Judo has everything going for it

I don't even, I mean, how can, wat

It's hard to take anything you say seriously when you blatantly misread stuff like that. I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt that your reading comprehension isn't that bad by half and I'm chalking it up to laziness.

[MightyB]

Yes, we know that this entire thread is just click bait based on an over hyped outlier. I applaud your trolling tactics, but it is painfully obvious that you aren't actually arguing that "Judo is going to overtake BJJ as the grappling art of choice . . ." rather "Judo should be the grappling art of choice". In that case, unfortunately, the click through rate on your thread would be like 12 and it would fall off the front page.

I'm agreeing with you. Yes the thread could read Judo should...

Listen, I've already outlined several reasons supporting my argument and backed them up with external sources - I've looked at your guys's opposing arguments (based on present observations - where I'm future-casting) and I'm standing behind my hypothesis (appended with your statement). You will see the dynamic takedowns from Judo becoming more mainstream, and as those become the norm, Judo should become the grappling art of choice for MMA- 'cuz it has the takedowns and all the subs.

Now here's what I've added to my hypothesis based on the thread - Judo should be able to do it, but it's losing the marketing game, so the ball is in the average Judo coach's court - meaning, the IJF and the Kodokan are going to do what they always do, which is blind obstinance to change and sometimes backed with outright hostility... whereas the average Judo coach can make his club more open to MMA.

[mawali]

Judo is the root so anyone seeking to better himself would (should) seek to do judo. When the Count ended up in Brazil, he taught ne-waza based on his learning and between that era until today, people only see the throwing since that is what is being propagated and not the "ground game". I will admit that the ground game per the Western mindset takes on a different view and understanding. I am also reminded that in those days, "face" was important so for those of that class, the throw, trapping, falling, etc was seen as a higher level of skill so one did not need to roll around like the common people, as it were. Scholars, intellectuals, etc used their bodyguards and protectors for that purpose.

[MightyB]

this just happened.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o9mKcxTAhxA

[Pipefighter]

Is the main issue whether bjj is more for mma than Judo? Or weather judo schools will become more common and judo will be learned by more fighters?
Or is the question about which techniques will be used more prolifically? As a wrestler, when i first saw a Vale-tudo match and a ufc match in the very early 90's, my first thought was that it was sloppy wrestling with fighting. If the point is which techniques will be most used then i would say freestyle and collegiate wrestling techniques are used constantly in Mma, though due to marketing are never branded as such. If you have bjj eyes, its all bjj. If you have wrestlers eyes its all wrestling with the inclusion of all the illegal moves in the rule book, which you have to learn so you know what they are.
For the record, in freestyle a throw flat on the back is a total immediate victory (pin). As long as you maintain total contact throughout a throw the higher, harder, and faster it is, the higher the points. Also moves like the (i dont know how to spell this, so phonetically gee-a-teen), power half, banana split, over under sit through, ankle lace are all considered subs in bjj, but wrestlers view them as a means to an end.
So if wrestling was as widely understood as bjj or judo, maybe it would begin to be considered the premiere grappling wing of american mma. But honestly, why spend energy fighting on the ground anyway, :D

[MightyB]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ieDABQw-VN0



"Davis is a Cesar Gracie black belt in BJJ, and has parlayed that into a status as one of the top women's 135ers in the world. She's won 5 straight fights, including a pair of submissions in Invicta, but she's bene unable to get a finish in the UFC. Perhaps a case of jitters, she struggled to get past the undersized Rosi Sexton before dominating Liz Carmouche in November and then squeaking past Jessica Eye at UFC 170. Rousey feels very confident in her skills against any high-level BJJ practitioner, and Davis is arguably the best one she's faced to date.

Alexis Davis is quite possibly Rousey's biggest test to date, and I think we're in for a good fight."

http://www.bloodyelbow.com/2014/7/5/5857952/ufc-175-fight-card-ppv-preview-alexis-davis-vs-ronda-rousey-primer

16 seconds :D

[Frost]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ieDABQw-VN0



"Davis is a Cesar Gracie black belt in BJJ, and has parlayed that into a status as one of the top women's 135ers in the world. She's won 5 straight fights, including a pair of submissions in Invicta, but she's bene unable to get a finish in the UFC. Perhaps a case of jitters, she struggled to get past the undersized Rosi Sexton before dominating Liz Carmouche in November and then squeaking past Jessica Eye at UFC 170. Rousey feels very confident in her skills against any high-level BJJ practitioner, and Davis is arguably the best one she's faced to date.

Alexis Davis is quite possibly Rousey's biggest test to date, and I think we're in for a good fight."

http://www.bloodyelbow.com/2014/7/5/5857952/ufc-175-fight-card-ppv-preview-alexis-davis-vs-ronda-rousey-primer

16 seconds :D

this is a girl who struggled against roxi saxton for lords sake, they simply dont have anyone of rouseys athletic ability for her to test herself against

[MightyB]

this is a girl who struggled against roxi saxton for lords sake, they simply dont have anyone of rouseys athletic ability for her to test herself against

The UFC's best bet is to pull a competitor from the women's Judo world. There has to be someone in the 135lbs range that could give Rousey a fight. The obvious American Women's Judoka who actually has transitioned to MMA is Kayla Harrison. But she's too heavy, she'd have to drop 40lbs to fight Rousey.

Replace the word "Ninja" to "Judoka" and Rousey is living the line from Revenge of the Ninja, "Only a Ninja can stop a Ninja."


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y__pOax8VOk

[MightyB]

But honestly, why spend energy fighting on the ground anyway, :D

You do realize it's 2014. :confused::)

Wrestling is solid, BJJ is solid, Judo is solid, Sambo is solid. All have their problems and strengths. My opinion is that Judo is the most well rounded and suitable for MMA, obviously from the length of this thread other's don't share my opinion. :D

[MightyB]

Now here's what I've added to my hypothesis based on the thread - Judo should be able to do it, but it's losing the marketing game, so the ball is in the average Judo coach's court - meaning, the IJF and the Kodokan are going to do what they always do, which is blind obstinance to change and sometimes backed with outright hostility... whereas the average Judo coach can make his club more open to MMA.

So apparently there's a growing number of Judoka who feel the same way as I do: http://www.freestylejudo.org/

[Frost]

The UFC's best bet is to pull a competitor from the women's Judo world. There has to be someone in the 135lbs range that could give Rousey a fight. The obvious American Women's Judoka who actually has transitioned to MMA is Kayla Harrison. But she's too heavy, she'd have to drop 40lbs to fight Rousey.

Replace the word "Ninja" to "Judoka" and Rousey is living the line from Revenge of the Ninja, "Only a Ninja can stop a Ninja."


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y__pOax8VOk

I agree the only talent pool which could trouble her in the judo one, not because its better for MMA than wrestling or BJJ (the lack of judo guys in the top ten in male MMA proves this) but because in women’s combat sport it’s the only art with a deep talent pool so those that rise to the top are animals and years ahead of girls who do submission grappling or wrestling
The issue is the best won’t want to come because, well there are aiming for the OL games in the majority of cases Even if someone does make the switch it will probably be towards the end of their career which will mean athletically they will be declining
Rousey is a bit unique in that
a) She made the switch to MMA early, very early in her Olympic peak years she retired at 21 I believe which for someone with Olympic level skills is just strange
b) She has spent years training both gi and no gi under gene lebell and goker, giving her a head start in terms of MMA and no gi work
c) Her mum was a medallist as well, so she was training hard from such an early age

[MightyB]

I agree the only talent pool which could trouble her in the judo one, not because its better for MMA than wrestling or BJJ (the lack of judo guys in the top ten in male MMA proves this)

Dave Camarillo (Judo & BJJ Black Belt and founder of Guerrilla Jiu Jitsu) has an interesting opinion on this (http://www.mmafighting.com/2013/6/1/4385780/technique-talk-dave-camarillo-judo-mma-ronda-rousey-blueprint-mma-news). He believed that it's the discipline of defining themselves as "Martial Artists" and not "fighters" which is preventing many of the top tier Judoka from entering the MMA world. Whereas wrestlers, without the formality of the gi, the bowing, the lineage, etc. see MMA as just another challenge to overcome.


"Why don't we see more judoka in MMA? We've seen some really good ones. Rousey was a medalist, Makoto Takimoto, Akiyama, Rick Hawn was an Olympian, but there doesn't seem to be the same level of matriculation. Why is that?

I think it's a situation of culture. I've known a lot of wrestlers in my life, especially with MMA fighting. I obviously grew up in the judo scene and judo, it was never about 'fighting'. There's no real culture of fighting. For us, it was the martial arts. When you say martial arts, you wear a gi. You're bowing. You have a sensei. You're part of a lineage. That is a different culture than wrestling in high school and Division I college. It's just different.

They don't bow on the mat, that's one difference. Well, that has an effect psychologically. When I grew up, we didn't get in fights. We all were accountable because our parents understood that it's a martial art. That really helped parents really raise their kids. It's this connection of 'We don't do this, we don't do that'. Now, in wrestling, it's like, definitely good people, but there's not this - whatever it is - boundary that keeps them from wanting to fight. In judo, you see it.

I've seen so many judoka in my career that I thought would do incredible in MMA and they never once thought about it. I would even ask them. 'Oh no, I don't like MMA'. I think it's culturally. You ask a wrestler and they're like 'Yeah, yeah. That's awesome!' There's so many wrestlers coming in, but in the United States there's actually not a lot of judoka. Most of them are in Japan."

http://www.mmafighting.com/2013/6/1/4385780/technique-talk-dave-camarillo-judo-mma-ronda-rousey-blueprint-mma-news

[sanjuro_ronin]

Rhonda has no one at here level yet.
I mean, the girl is Elite.
She is simply far better than anyone else right now.
I have always said and probably always will say that a fighter with a solid base in a TMA ( Like Judo) and well trained in MMA will always have a better chance in MMA than one that is 100% MMA trained.

[Syn7]

Rhonda has no one at here level yet.
I mean, the girl is Elite.
She is simply far better than anyone else right now.
I have always said and probably always will say that a fighter with a solid base in a TMA ( Like Judo) and well trained in MMA will always have a better chance in MMA than one that is 100% MMA trained.

So I'm assuming you're lumping in boxing, freestyle wrestling, greco, catch as... etc etc... as TMA's?


Oh and... Holy **** Rhonda!

Machida is a freakin' warrior! Would have liked to see that one go on till there was a finish. Glad to see Weidman get some validation in the deep end. Dude has nice chin.

[Kellen Bassette]

Oh and... Holy **** Rhonda!

Machida is a freakin' warrior! Would have liked to see that one go on till there was a finish. Glad to see Weidman get some validation in the deep end. Dude has nice chin.

That was a great card, great fights...got to give it up for Uriah Hall too....

[Syn7]

That was a great card, great fights...got to give it up for Uriah Hall too....

No doubt. That foot was nasty!

[sanjuro_ronin]

So I'm assuming you're lumping in boxing, freestyle wrestling, greco, catch as... etc etc... as TMA's?


Oh and... Holy **** Rhonda!

Machida is a freakin' warrior! Would have liked to see that one go on till there was a finish. Glad to see Weidman get some validation in the deep end. Dude has nice chin.

Of course.

[Stickgrappler]

People questioned Uriah Hall's killer instinct... maybe the Adam Cella KO made him think he can literally kill someone in the octagon

But after that fight, no one should be questioning Hall's heart... dayum! That bone protruding from the toe? double dayum!



Ronda was an Olympian Judoka, Sara McMann was an Olympian Greco-Roman wrestler... we saw how that ended up... Judo is a great addition to "MMA"... wished Karo Parisyan didn't flake out and was able to continue

Hector Lombard's last fight was awesome too! another Olympian judoka.

I think MMAists still need BJJ, but when wrestling entered the UFC scene, we saw how wrestlers can dictate if they want to go to the ground or not vs BJJ

MMA scene needs to adapt to Judo now... not enough Judokas to change MMA thinking (yet)... just like when wrestlers started fighting in MMA, MMA adapted and included Wrestling


http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-HRFqycsFlRg/U7qSyFTxeVI/AAAAAAAAG2s/vgJu5wPhIlI/s1600/UFC175-RondaRouseyXAlexisDavis-7-superslomothrow400-sg.gif
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-6vzzyjv0Cq8/U7viPBmjo3I/AAAAAAAAG4A/qocijg9YqKs/s1600/UFC175-RondaRouseyXAlexisDavis-11-haraigoshi-400-sg.gif


Enjoy 9 more GIF’s here:

http://www.stickgrappler.net/2014/07/ufc-175-ronda-rousey-x-alexis-davis.html

[sanjuro_ronin]

Love your gif's dude.

[Stickgrappler]

Love your gif's dude.

Domo arigato gozaimasu sanjuro_ronin-san!

[sanjuro_ronin]

Domo arigato gozaimasu sanjuro_ronin-san!

Quite talking like a woman and be a man !!
:D

[Stickgrappler]

Quite talking like a woman and be a man !!
:D

lol at me!

*high fives and chest bumps sanjuro*

[Stickgrappler]

for the record, if you had a chinese SN, i would've said "xie xie"

lol at me

[Wayfaring]

Don't think Judo is supplanting BJJ as grappling art of choice at all. More of a case for wrestling. Case in point Frankie Edgar vs. BJ Penn. Frankie focused on wrestling and used that plus tons of hip pressure and GNP to shut down any kind of guard work BJ Penn was trying to get going.

Besides, judo keeps adding more and more dumb rules to competition every year. And BJJ sits silently back like the Borg, absorbs other skills like Sambo, then says "BJJ has had footlocks for years".

[Wayfaring]

People questioned Uriah Hall's killer instinct... maybe the Adam Cella KO made him think he can literally kill someone in the octagon

But after that fight, no one should be questioning Hall's heart... dayum! That bone protruding from the toe? double dayum!


Beast. I still do not see any way he could have that level of mobility with that toe. He had better footwork with that toe than 90% of that division healthy.

[Wayfaring]

Rhonda has no one at here level yet.
I mean, the girl is Elite.
She is simply far better than anyone else right now.
I have always said and probably always will say that a fighter with a solid base in a TMA ( Like Judo) and well trained in MMA will always have a better chance in MMA than one that is 100% MMA trained.

Honda's level is changing more than her competitors too. 2 yrs ago a Cyborg match was not a good idea. Now it is. Her striking has come up 300%.

On the fighter's base, I'm at a tossup. I definitely think mastering one art like judo to a very deep level first, then expanding is one way I've seen work very effectively. Lately elite wrestlers who can build a certain skill level striking are winning. But I am also seeing very young kids coming up simulataneously in multiple disciplines under a good mma coach and doing very well. An example of the first category to me is Cain Velasquez. An example of the second category would be Jon Jones.

[Pipefighter]

Rousey is a heart breaker!! :eek:
One of my sparring partners is a freestyle Judoka. I love practicing shuai chiao against him cause i HAVE to get a clean throw or else. We go jacketless only and he is still very skilled.

Freestyle wrestling is a pretty well rounded grappling art too, but when your life's training is to put the guy on his back after throwing him, it plays right into the hands of a bjj guy. I think coaching a guy to slam and get back up immediately would yield better results for wrestlers in mma than trying to pick up bjj also.

All good freestyle guys should know all of these:
(I don't like the titles in the film though)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ihWL592wQ5I

[Stickgrappler]

Beast. I still do not see any way he could have that level of mobility with that toe. He had better footwork with that toe than 90% of that division healthy.

i felt he channeled Genki Sudo at one point or Anderson Silva... he looked like he was doing the robot like Genki lol

[Stickgrappler]

Honda's level is changing more than her competitors too. 2 yrs ago a Cyborg match was not a good idea. Now it is. Her striking has come up 300%.

On the fighter's base, I'm at a tossup. I definitely think mastering one art like judo to a very deep level first, then expanding is one way I've seen work very effectively. Lately elite wrestlers who can build a certain skill level striking are winning. But I am also seeing very young kids coming up simulataneously in multiple disciplines under a good mma coach and doing very well. An example of the first category to me is Cain Velasquez. An example of the second category would be Jon Jones.

i think key is the training, not to compartmentalize each of the styles/arts and keep them segregated... should train it as a whole... as mma... witness the bjj only who couldn't adapt to mma rules ... getting hit while pulling guard and getting stacked and gnp ... which is not within bjj rules

[Lucas]

if I had to choose to pay to watch either bjj or judo strictly for entertainment value...judo hands down. The vast majority of mma audience do not seriously train either art and are watching to be entertained

[RickMatz]

What was the name of the throw that Rousey did to Davis?

[Frost]

What was the name of the throw that Rousey did to Davis?

modified hara goshi i think, using head control rather than the gi

[Frost]

Honda's level is changing more than her competitors too. 2 yrs ago a Cyborg match was not a good idea. Now it is. Her striking has come up 300%.

On the fighter's base, I'm at a tossup. I definitely think mastering one art like judo to a very deep level first, then expanding is one way I've seen work very effectively. Lately elite wrestlers who can build a certain skill level striking are winning. But I am also seeing very young kids coming up simulataneously in multiple disciplines under a good mma coach and doing very well. An example of the first category to me is Cain Velasquez. An example of the second category would be Jon Jones.

Didn’t Jones wrestle to a high level in college?
I think the issue isnt so much having a deep understanding of a single art first before moving to mastering others v being an MMA athlete from the start as much as it is if you are a world class athlete in America or Europe you will probably go down mastering the signle art first route simply because because that’s what is done in schools, or gets you a college or uni scholarship (with wrestling or judo) or is the art geared towards allowing you to safely compete at all levels in striking with a chance on fighting internationally and professionally (in terms of boxing and thai when it comes to striking)
No a lot of good MMA gyms allow kids straight into their programme, and the best fighters are always the ones who start young,

Ronda is an example of what a world class athlete can do if she puts her mind to it and changes disciplines early enough: the athlete skill, timing, physical attributes and ability to learn which made her a world class judoka have now simply been turned to making her a world class striker
I think she will retire soon though and move into movies getting paid $120 to fight is nothing really, and only half of that is guaranteed the rest was a win bonus she could make that for a 10 min appearance in the next fast and furious movie lol

Ronda Rousey*($60,000 + $60,000 = $120,000

[Frost]

Rousey is a heart breaker!! :eek:
One of my sparring partners is a freestyle Judoka. I love practicing shuai chiao against him cause i HAVE to get a clean throw or else. We go jacketless only and he is still very skilled.

Freestyle wrestling is a pretty well rounded grappling art too, but when your life's training is to put the guy on his back after throwing him, it plays right into the hands of a bjj guy. I think coaching a guy to slam and get back up immediately would yield better results for wrestlers in mma than trying to pick up bjj also.

All good freestyle guys should know all of these:
(I don't like the titles in the film though)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ihWL592wQ5I

They don’t need to pick up BJJ though, all they need to do is pick up enough submission defense to stay safe in the guard whilst they ground and pound (which a lot of them get good at very quickly because tey understand how to control their opponents hips which is the key to killing the guard) just as the Thai and BJJ guys like aldo don’t bother learning proper freestyle wrestling they simply learn enough to be able to defend the common takedowns and impose their game on their opponent

[Dragonzbane76]

If a wrestler can learn just enough sub. defense then he can ride all day on top and GNP. BJJ is good for learning subs and having a fighting chance from the back, but wrestling is the king of domination and movement while on the ground. Domination of holding a person in place and being able to move them or themselves to the spot they wish. Not saying a wrestler can't get caught, especially from someone with more experience, but a BJJ saying that holds true for a wrestler "Position to submission," and wrestling is about position.

[trubblman]

Because the game seems to be played differently nowadays, I think Judo is going to overtake BJJ as the grappling art of choice for MMA.

Check this video (https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=696271083739885&set=vb.131670893533243&type=3&theater) out to see what I mean.

Didnt Kimura beat one of the Gracies a long time ago?

[Frost]

Didnt Kimura beat one of the Gracies a long time ago?

He beat helio, what does that prove or mean though?

[Pipefighter]

They don’t need to pick up BJJ though, all they need to do is pick up enough submission defense to stay safe in the guard whilst they ground and pound (which a lot of them get good at very quickly because tey understand how to control their opponents hips which is the key to killing the guard) just as the Thai and BJJ guys like aldo don’t bother learning proper freestyle wrestling they simply learn enough to be able to defend the common takedowns and impose their game on their opponent

I used to totally agree. I thought the best place for me is tight inside the guard stacking em, keeping their hips from slipping out into a leg lock, GNP. I agree every wrestler should know the defenses for a triangle, guillotine, and arm bar. I think other sub defense is mostly second nature to a good wrestler.
Over the last few years my opinion has changed. It takes a lot of energy to be top dominant in a fight or wrestling match. It takes a lot less energy to slam, throw a few blows with minimal body contact, then let them struggle back up while you rest and hover around them with strikes. Even being top dominant and fighting for position is still half playing their game. I feel that is a coaching issue, but it's hard to change old habits

To be honest, i am half joking about wrestling being the premier grappling art of the UFC. Judo goes along with the rule set much better. Wrestlers have often won in spite of the rules. Headbutt's would change the game completely for the wrestler.

[sanjuro_ronin]

MMA has always been about becoming proficient in a solid base skill set ( grappling, striking, ground fighting, whatever) and learning enough of the rest to counter it and impose YOUR skill set.
People learned very quickly that if they have been striking for 10 years that no amount of grappling training was going to allow them to beat a grappler that had been grappling for 10 years at his own game, it's just not gonna happen.
What they did find out is that they could learn enough to do enough to keep the fight in the conditions that favoured THEIR skill set.

[MightyB]

Just another example of how awesome Rousey is when she's using Judo


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IjoMMpWUWKA

8854

[sanjuro_ronin]

I think that Rhonda is making such a huge impact because (also) the talent pool is not as big as in the men.
Not to take ANYTHING away from her ELITE ability in judo of course.

[MightyB]

I think that Rhonda is making such a huge impact because (also) the talent pool is not as big as in the men.
Not to take ANYTHING away from her ELITE ability in judo of course.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hGIb9j_NTOw#t=65

http://img.mixedmartialarts.com/method=get&s=gifs01.gif
..........

[Pipefighter]

Hey, MightyB! I totally missed your quote response from back when. When i said, "why waste all that energy fighting on the ground anyway? ;)". And you said "its 2014."

Not to distract from Rousey, BTW! She is way more interesting. And i like to see the headlock being used in mma, even if it is a Judoka doing it.

I'm kind of saying the same thing, its 2014! There are a ton of ground submission guys out there. Up until a year ago i was still content to go to the ground in sport situations. I know some locks and chokes from shooto and combat submission wrestling, and collegiate (like the twister, banana split, bull dog, front choke, etc...) and have used em in tournaments, so i figured i would try and stay on my feet, but if i went to the ground i could just work for a sub really quick. I finally had an opportunity to roll consistently with some world class bjj guys. I like sub wrestling as a sport. Its fun and much less painful and abusive than wrestling. But i realized that the BEST case scenario for me rolling with that caliber of guys is to Avoid being tapped. I also roll with some guys who do judo with Olympic level guys and they tap me too if i go to the mat with them and stay down there. So the options for a wrestler when we go to the ground is basically avoid getting tapped and pound em. However, there are globs of guys out there who work constantly on the counters to that approach. If I may be so bold, that approach may be a bit antiquated for the mma. If college wrestlers, who can pretty well decide weather or not the fight will remain on the ground, decide to train to avoid staying on the ground, i think they would open a new window/door of fighting concept in mainstream mma. As a college wrestler, i know how hard it is to make the mental switch for that, and it takes additional training to learn to stay up.
If Shuai Chiao was more widely understood and wrestlers who now fight trained in SC, i think it would have a huge effect on the landscape of the UFC.
If a guy spends 15 yrs wrestling(1/2 on stand up, half on ground), and competes with a guy who spends 80% of his 15 yrs working ground submissions, then we make a rule set where you cant win by pin or submission, just by sub/ko, then why would the wrestler waste time on the ground fighting an uphill battle if he understands he doesn't have to.
Some one told me years ago, "why do you cut weight? Isn't it tougher to beat a bigger guy than to scamper away from him and drop weight?" That comment fell on deaf ears because wrestling to me was cutting weight. Now i am a strong proponent for healthy weight and advise all wrestlers to never cut weight. If its in a wrestlers mind to bring everyone to the ground and pound them, thats a hard mentality to break. But maybe Cung Le will help to break that mental block. I hope the ex wrestlers who train fighters can experience some real shuai chiao guys enough to inspire them to cross train in it and develop a root they never had before to enable a stronger way of what they already have good skill in.

[MightyB]

Hey, MightyB! I totally missed your quote response from back when. When i said, "why waste all that energy fighting on the ground anyway? ;)". And you said "its 2014."

Not to distract from Rousey, BTW! She is way more interesting. And i like to see the headlock being used in mma, even if it is a Judoka doing it.

I'm kind of saying the same thing, its 2014! There are a ton of ground submission guys out there. Up until a year ago i was still content to go to the ground in sport situations. I know some locks and chokes from shooto and combat submission wrestling, and collegiate (like the twister, banana split, bull dog, front choke, etc...) and have used em in tournaments, so i figured i would try and stay on my feet, but if i went to the ground i could just work for a sub really quick. I finally had an opportunity to roll consistently with some world class bjj guys. I like sub wrestling as a sport. Its fun and much less painful and abusive than wrestling. But i realized that the BEST case scenario for me rolling with that caliber of guys is to Avoid being tapped. I also roll with some guys who do judo with Olympic level guys and they tap me too if i go to the mat with them and stay down there. So the options for a wrestler when we go to the ground is basically avoid getting tapped and pound em. However, there are globs of guys out there who work constantly on the counters to that approach. If I may be so bold, that approach may be a bit antiquated for the mma. If college wrestlers, who can pretty well decide weather or not the fight will remain on the ground, decide to train to avoid staying on the ground, i think they would open a new window/door of fighting concept in mainstream mma. As a college wrestler, i know how hard it is to make the mental switch for that, and it takes additional training to learn to stay up.
If Shuai Chiao was more widely understood and wrestlers who now fight trained in SC, i think it would have a huge effect on the landscape of the UFC.
If a guy spends 15 yrs wrestling(1/2 on stand up, half on ground), and competes with a guy who spends 80% of his 15 yrs working ground submissions, then we make a rule set where you cant win by pin or submission, just by sub/ko, then why would the wrestler waste time on the ground fighting an uphill battle if he understands he doesn't have to.
Some one told me years ago, "why do you cut weight? Isn't it tougher to beat a bigger guy than to scamper away from him and drop weight?" That comment fell on deaf ears because wrestling to me was cutting weight. Now i am a strong proponent for healthy weight and advise all wrestlers to never cut weight. If its in a wrestlers mind to bring everyone to the ground and pound them, thats a hard mentality to break. But maybe Cung Le will help to break that mental block. I hope the ex wrestlers who train fighters can experience some real shuai chiao guys enough to inspire them to cross train in it and develop a root they never had before to enable a stronger way of what they already have good skill in.

I know very little about Greco Roman wrestling, do they work for the pin or is it all takedown based like Judo?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B2WMt7GtEuI

[Pipefighter]

I know very little about Greco Roman wrestling, do they work for the pin or is it all takedown based like Judo?


Modern judo and traditional Greco have all too much in common, imho. Legs are a quintessential part of life. Blocking them from the sport is just, uhhhhhh.... Kills me.

Greco does work for the pin. There were a number of pins in that video, actually. In greco and freestyle a pin is an instantaneous thing. It isn't like in collegiate or judo where a pin is counted over a period of time displaying control. If you headlock a guy in freestyle/greco and slam is back flat to the mat, he is pinned, match over. So of course you train a lot to fight for a landing that protects your back. At the national level and higher they have multiple ref's because of how quickly it can all happen. Thats why those matches are on elevated platforms, so one set of ref's can be eye level to the mat and identify if a pin has happened off a throw.
Mat technique is much different in freestyle/greco compared to collegiate/folk. In greco/fs you dont have to fight back to standing. You also are really looking to throw the guy on bottom when you are on top, or at least roll him over. But really you wanna pick him up off the ground and slam him. In fs/greco you can lock hands around the waist. Not in folk style. So you try and keep your belly pinned down and in 15 seconds of inactivity the ref will stand you back up. In folk style you are obligated to get back up, but it's illegal for your opponent to lock you around the waist and slam you on your head. So collegiate/folk spends a lot of time learning reversals, mat positioning, riding techniques, escapes, tilt's ( which is where you learn the a number of moves bjj considers sub's).

Takedowns and back points are scored differently in greco/freestyle compared to folk/collegiate. Rolling across your own back in greco/fs will get you pinned also. So a number of throws in judo are differently performed in wrestling. If you throw over your own back in freestyle, you pop through it so your back never touches the mat. Ie, crotch throw, suplex, suicide cradle off front headlock, or even laterally in a gator roll from front headlock. You still pop and arch and don't touch your back. I can post video for those, maybe, if there are questions about throw names.

In short, greco is 30% of what freestyle is. Both work for pins. In greco you cannot use your legs or engage his legs. If you are against a world class athlete you have to be cautious, so you aren't looking for a pin so much as a point advantage, and leave no opening for your opponent.

Oh, and my knowledge of judo is from the judo guys who used to wrestle in high school, and rolling in open grappling with judo guys lately. So i may not know the rules so much. Definitely don't know the jap lingo.

[MightyB]

Modern judo and traditional Greco have all too much in common, imho. Legs are a quintessential part of life. Blocking them from the sport is just, uhhhhhh.... Kills me.

Greco does work for the pin. There were a number of pins in that video, actually. In greco and freestyle a pin is an instantaneous thing. It isn't like in collegiate or judo where a pin is counted over a period of time displaying control. If you headlock a guy in freestyle/greco and slam is back flat to the mat, he is pinned, match over. So of course you train a lot to fight for a landing that protects your back. At the national level and higher they have multiple ref's because of how quickly it can all happen. Thats why those matches are on elevated platforms, so one set of ref's can be eye level to the mat and identify if a pin has happened off a throw.
Mat technique is much different in freestyle/greco compared to collegiate/folk. In greco/fs you dont have to fight back to standing. You also are really looking to throw the guy on bottom when you are on top, or at least roll him over. But really you wanna pick him up off the ground and slam him. In fs/greco you can lock hands around the waist. Not in folk style. So you try and keep your belly pinned down and in 15 seconds of inactivity the ref will stand you back up. In folk style you are obligated to get back up, but it's illegal for your opponent to lock you around the waist and slam you on your head. So collegiate/folk spends a lot of time learning reversals, mat positioning, riding techniques, escapes, tilt's ( which is where you learn the a number of moves bjj considers sub's).

Takedowns and back points are scored differently in greco/freestyle compared to folk/collegiate. Rolling across your own back in greco/fs will get you pinned also. So a number of throws in judo are differently performed in wrestling. If you throw over your own back in freestyle, you pop through it so your back never touches the mat. Ie, crotch throw, suplex, suicide cradle off front headlock, or even laterally in a gator roll from front headlock. You still pop and arch and don't touch your back. I can post video for those, maybe, if there are questions about throw names.

In short, greco is 30% of what freestyle is. Both work for pins. In greco you cannot use your legs or engage his legs. If you are against a world class athlete you have to be cautious, so you aren't looking for a pin so much as a point advantage, and leave no opening for your opponent.

Oh, and my knowledge of judo is from the judo guys who used to wrestle in high school, and rolling in open grappling with judo guys lately. So i may not know the rules so much. Definitely don't know the jap lingo.

Thanks for the details. - I'm really liking what I saw in Greco.

[Pipefighter]

Thanks for the details. - I'm really liking what I saw in Greco.

No sweat. You may find Freestyle wrestling interesting also, since in that you can use leg blocking in throws, and throw from all the angles, and more complete defensive strategy.

I'm glad the M.A. Community is taking an interest in wrestling. Wrestlers have been secretly getting involved in m.a. Since the 70's, but as a wrestling coach you are not allowed to bring any m.a. training into wrestling. I think that wall has come down now.

[Pipefighter]

Here is the same part of the world as the video you posted. This is the freestyle side.
They work a lot more of the shuai chiao foot sweeps there than freestyle wrestlers here in the USA. Most of the greco throws can be completely stopped by leg twisting and leg defense. So seeing a greco throw doesn't do much for me. Pulling off a throw in freestyle is much harder.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ptaNak1B3_Q

[MightyB]

Ronaldo Souza wants to take page out of Ronda Rousey's playbook (https://sports.yahoo.com/news/ronaldo-souza-hoping-to-take-page-out-of-ronda-rousey-s-playbook-205154996-mma.html;_ylt=AqgIn6KRj63nYqIOi9U1q.SbvZx4;_ylc=X3 oDMTlta3BzMWNvBF9TAzIwMjM1MzgwNzUEYQMxNDA5MDMgc3Bv cnRzIHNvdXphIHJvdXNleSB0BGFpZANpZC0zNTA5MzE3BGNjb2 RlA2dhBGNwb3MDNARkA3N0BGVkAzEEZwNkMDUwOWVjNy04Njc0 LTNiZTktOTdlNC0wZmRmNDQzODUwMGYEaW50bAN1cwRpdGMDMA RsdHh0A01hbGVmaWdodGVydGFrZXNwYWdlZnJvbVJvdXNleSYj Mzk7c3BsYXlib29rBHBrZ3QDMQRwa2d2AzYEcG9zAzIEcgNEZD BraE1BVlpGMWN2UjExazVnOUxaODhMRDVOUThMUVFBPT0Ec2Vj A3RkLWZlYQRzbGsDdGl0bGUEdGFyA3Nwb3J0cy55YWhvby5jb2 0EdGVzdAMyNTAEd29lAzI0NTUzMDE-)


He also has a black belt in judo. But despite the spectacular success UFC women's bantamweight champion Ronda Rousey has had using judo as her base, there are few fighters who regularly use judo in the cage.

But it's a weapon for Souza and, he believes, will be for more fighters as time goes on.

"The top judo fighters around the world have regularly trained so hard that they set an example for MMA fighters," Souza said. "Ronda has taken it to another degree. She shows by the way she performs in the Octagon that other fighters can use judo successfully in their strategy.

"She's motivated me to incorporate more judo. It gives me another weapon and she's shown that it can work at a very high level. I've been using more judo techniques and I think I'll be using it more."

[Frost]

Ronda Rousey's teammate, close friend and fellow judoka Marina Shafir (holder of several gold medals in judo at the national level) was knocked out in just 37 seconds by Amanda Bell as part of the LOP Chaos at the Casino 5 card…..

[rett2]

Ronda Rousey's teammate, close friend and fellow judoka Marina Shafir (holder of several gold medals in judo at the national level) was knocked out in just 37 seconds by Amanda Bell as part of the LOP Chaos at the Casino 5 card…..

Was she knocked out through grappling or through stand-up techniques? Only grappling is relevant here.

[Frost]

Was she knocked out through grappling or through stand-up techniques? Only grappling is relevant here.

Not really it is relevant because judo teaches upper body attacks (you can't directly attack the legs) so you don't see level changes and double or single leg attacks, so judoka come in at a level that leaves them open to punches, where as a wrestler with level change and avoid the punches by coming under them, so it goes back to which art needs the least amount of changes to work in mma

[BigPandaBear]

No.

Judo isn't very popular in the US, and Rousey isn't going to change that.

So you're still going to get American MMA fighters who do Wrestling or Bjj.

Let's also not forget that Judo itself is heavily dominated by Olympic Judo, so Olympic rules oftentimes dominates what is taught in a Judo club.

Bjj is a lot more open to new ideas than Judo is, and Ronda is expanding Judo because of Bjj's influence on her. Because of it openness and fluidity, Bjj will always be a step ahead of Judo.

[MightyB]

Bjj will always be a step ahead of Judo.
http://img.izismile.com/img/img6/20131007/1000/daily_gifdump_470_15.gif

idk dude... but in my book - Judo's cooler

http://cdn0.sbnation.com/fan_shot_images/217505/1.gif

[Lucas]

Way cooler ;) not to mention judo is better adapted to real life, and develops a tougher fighter.

[mawali]

Not sure if I posted a similar reply but the ignored ne-waza of judo (after 1945 ???) became the BJJ of Gracie and whjat we know today as the latter art. Maeda studied Judo but it seemed that after the war, only throwing appeared to have been emphasized in modern Japan so when he taught the ground techniques, everyone thought that it was new when it just was not practiced post WW2. The Brazilians became naturals of BJJ as it approximated their sport art of capoeira!

[sanjuro_ronin]

Judo's de-emphasizing of ground work (besides pins) was due to the fact that as it became a sport ( eventually an Olympic one) the ground work was viewed as boring and time consuming ( and still is).
Now, there are many systems of judo ( while Kodokan is the mother style), many masters decided to NOT strictly focus on Olympic comps and retained the 50-50 balance of stand up and ground work.
Combat Judo as they tend to refer to themselves ( systems like Kawashiki Judo) are more fighting oriented, more self-defense oriented and keep a balance of ne-waza and nage-waza and strikes are incorporated in BOTH aspects of the game.
BJJ toke the ground work of basic judo and put it on a whole other level and submission grappling took it even beyond that.
That said, outside or grappling purists, you won't see much popularity of grappling only tournaments, certainly not compared to boxing or whatever.

As for MMA, it will always be about using what works best in the ring, period. Regardless of where it comes from.

[Jimbo]

BJJ will remain the number-one ground grappling system for MMA. As far as grappling in MMA in general, judo is definitely coming into its own in that regard. But will it ever be as sought out or as common as BJJ and wrestling? I don't know.

The first MA I ever studied was judo, so there will always be a special place in my heart for it. IMO, very few MAs give a youngster a better all-around introduction and base for MA training than judo. At the dojo I trained at back in the '70s, it must have been a somewhat older version. The sensei was highly-ranked and elderly (he had briefly taught my brother ten years previously). The students competed successfully in judo events, and the assistant instructor had once been world-ranked. But besides the throwing, there was also emphasis on pins and submissions, as well as some very rudimentary strikes and knees. There wasn't any talk of Olympic judo during class. For the longest time, I just assumed most judo was taught like that.

Although I don't see BJJ being supplanted as the main grappling art in MMA anytime soon, I will say that between the two (I also spent time in BJJ), I personally much preferred judo. But judo is nowhere near as easy to find in any city these days as BJJ. BJJ is everywhere, it's highly effective (IMO, the best for pure ground grappling), and it's inextricably linked with MMA.

[BigPandaBear]

idk dude... but in my book - Judo's cooler


That's an opinion. The problem with Judo is that the prejudices and goals of its founder permenantly limits the style from achieving the amount of variation you see in Bjj. That's why I said that Bjj will always stay one step ahead. Judo was created to be a sport. Bjj was created as a method of street fighting. This allows Bjj to absorb outside influences while Judo is forced to adhere to strict rules and guidelines.

[BigPandaBear]

Way cooler ;) not to mention judo is better adapted to real life, and develops a tougher fighter.

LoL!

Do they teach striking in Judo? Do they teach you how to grapple when someone is on top of you and punching/elbowing you in the face in Judo? Do they show you how to grapple and throw without a gi?

Bjj does.

[MightyB]

This allows Bjj to absorb outside influences while Judo is forced to adhere to strict rules and guidelines.

http://img.izismile.com/img/img6/20131007/1000/daily_gifdump_470_15.gif

[Frost]

That's an opinion. The problem with Judo is that the prejudices and goals of its founder permenantly limits the style from achieving the amount of variation you see in Bjj. That's why I said that Bjj will always stay one step ahead. Judo was created to be a sport. Bjj was created as a method of street fighting. This allows Bjj to absorb outside influences while Judo is forced to adhere to strict rules and guidelines.

and yours in an opinion as well and not correct really
It wasn’t developed to be a sport, what made Judo different from the other Ryu was that he placed a great emphasis on randori (free practise) and the principles of seiryoku zen'yō (精力善用?, maximum efficiency, minimum effort) and jita kyōei (自他共栄?, mutual welfare and benefit).
Far from being restrictive kanos judo included strikes, throws and ground work, what we see as modern judo is as a direct result of judo becoming an olpymic sport something kano did not want to happen precisely because he thought it would become to restrictive and place to much emphasis on winning and not growth
Kano was all for variation he brought in the firemans carry for example from wrestling, and various single and double leg attacks because they were effective

[Frost]

LoL!

Do they teach striking in Judo? Do they teach you how to grapple when someone is on top of you and punching/elbowing you in the face in Judo? Do they show you how to grapple and throw without a gi?

Bjj does.

Yes judo in kanos time taught all of the above apart from grappling without a gi, what judo has become is not what Kano wanted, much like GJJ (which is what you are talking about) has morphed into BJJ, and most BJJ classes dont teach striking these days they are strict sporting places and people go elsewhere to learn MMA and striking

[BigPandaBear]

http://img.izismile.com/img/img6/20131007/1000/daily_gifdump_470_15.gif

That proves my point. You never see anything crazy like that in Judo.

[BigPandaBear]

Yes judo in kanos time taught all of the above apart from grappling without a gi, what judo has become is not what Kano wanted, much like GJJ (which is what you are talking about) has morphed into BJJ, and most BJJ classes dont teach striking these days they are strict sporting places and people go elsewhere to learn MMA and striking

The difference is that there's still thousands of GJJ schools world wide.

Where's the Judo school teaching old school Judo? They don't even teach Kano style Judo at the Kodokan.

[Frost]

The difference is that there's still thousands of GJJ schools world wide.

Where's the Judo school teaching old school Judo? They don't even teach Kano style Judo at the Kodokan.
Out side of the Gracie's were are the old school BJJ places teaching standing self defence as taught by helio, his knife defense and striking stuff? There aren't any just like judo bjj has evolved away from what it was intended for
To the extent that if a bjj school does have guys in MMA they have to get wrestling and Thai coaches, BJJ is now a specialized grappling art just like judo, GJJ is like kosen judo, like the art was meant to be but so few doing it its irrelevant ..
There are a handful of GJJ schools teaching it as helio wanted, heck even direct family members like renzo and Carlson jr teach BJJ as a grappling sport only

[BigChris]

That proves my point. You never see anything crazy like that in Judo.

LOL! I'd love to see this happen in UFC just once.

[BigPandaBear]

Out side of the Gracie's were are the old school BJJ places teaching standing self defence as taught by helio, his knife defense and striking stuff? There aren't any just like judo bjj has evolved away from what it was intended for

Again, there are thousands of Gracie schools who teach old school Bjj, and there are zero Judo schools teaching striking or old school Judo. How can you say that its the same situation?


To the extent that if a bjj school does have guys in MMA they have to get wrestling and Thai coaches, BJJ is now a specialized grappling art just like judo, GJJ is like kosen judo, like the art was meant to be but so few doing it its irrelevant ..

Where is a Kosen Judo school? Let me know when you find one.


There are a handful of GJJ schools teaching it as helio wanted, heck even direct family members like renzo and Carlson jr teach BJJ as a grappling sport only

And there's other family members like Relson and Rickson that don't.

[Lucas]

If anyone is going to bjj or judo looking for striking they're stupid. In todays martial world, anyone halfway serious knows this. Someone who already has a striking foundation, Imo, can make better use out of judo in real life, if you live in a part of the world where staying on your feet in a fight makes the most sense. The vast majority of people wear clothes where I live. Likewise due to the climate, for the majority of the year, they are wearing heavier clothing.

[BigPandaBear]

If anyone is going to bjj or judo looking for striking they're stupid. In todays martial world, anyone halfway serious knows this. Someone who already has a striking foundation, Imo, can make better use out of judo in real life, if you live in a part of the world where staying on your feet in a fight makes the most sense. The vast majority of people wear clothes where I live. Likewise due to the climate, for the majority of the year, they are wearing heavier clothing.

Nonsense. Gracie Jiu-Jitsu will teach you better transitions than Judo because they actively incorporate striking into their takedowns and ground fighting. They'll also teach you how to throw and grapple someone without the gi.

Judo won't.

The vast majority of Judo schools are forced to teach sport rules because their dojos are subsidized by various athletic agencies. In places like that, you're going to be taught only sport Judo, not self-defense based Judo. A prime example of this problem is wrist locks. In Judo, wrist locks are illegal, so guess what? You're not going to learn wrist locks. On the other hand, wrist locks are legal in even sport Bjj, so you're going to learn wrist locks in Bjj no matter where you go.

Gjj gyms are privately owned, so they can teach whatever they want. This includes Self Defense, No-gi, competition, etc. Some schools even offer other arts like MT kickboxing. Renzo's school for example does this, and they actively incorporate it into their Bjj (because of his MMA background). Again, you're not going to find that in a Judo dojo.

[YouKnowWho]

The vast majority of Judo schools are forced to teach sport rules because their dojos are subsidized by various athletic agencies. In places like that, you're going to be taught only sport Judo, not self-defense based Judo.

Agree with you there.

In one Judo forum, I suggested that Judo should have no-Gi training along with Gi training. My suggestion made many forum members unhappy and was treated as an attack to their Judo system. To move from Gi training to no-Gi training is not an easy task. When you don't have Gi to pull, many of your throwing skills won't work. You have to find equal replacement for your Gi pulling and that will require some

- extra grip strength training, and
- knowledge about the proper "pulling contact points".

Of course the Judo

- sleeve hold can be replaced by arm wrapping,
- lapel hold can be replaced by single neck tie.
- ...

by one still needs a lot of training to be able to replace it.

[Frost]

Nonsense. Gracie Jiu-Jitsu will teach you better transitions than Judo because they actively incorporate striking into their takedowns and ground fighting. They'll also teach you how to throw and grapple someone without the gi.

Judo won't.

The vast majority of Judo schools are forced to teach sport rules because their dojos are subsidized by various athletic agencies. In places like that, you're going to be taught only sport Judo, not self-defense based Judo. A prime example of this problem is wrist locks. In Judo, wrist locks are illegal, so guess what? You're not going to learn wrist locks. On the other hand, wrist locks are legal in even sport Bjj, so you're going to learn wrist locks in Bjj no matter where you go.

Gjj gyms are privately owned, so they can teach whatever they want. This includes Self Defense, No-gi, competition, etc. Some schools even offer other arts like MT kickboxing. Renzo's school for example does this, and they actively incorporate it into their Bjj (because of his MMA background). Again, you're not going to find that in a Judo dojo.

But that wasn’t your point was it, you originally said

The problem with Judo is that the prejudices and goals of its founder permenantly limits the style from achieving the amount of variation you see in Bjj. That's why I said that Bjj will always stay one step ahead. Judo was created to be a sport
Which simply isnt true, Judo evolved into a sport once the Olympics accepted it in, against Kano’s wishes and what happened is that it evolved from what he wished it to be into a sport, Just the way BJJ evolved from GJJ into largely something helio did not want it to be, a grappling sport with rules points etc and not a self defence art
You also said

The difference is that there's still thousands of GJJ schools world wide.
Which simply isnt true, there are thousands of BJJ schools, which do not teach the GJJ self-defense aspect, 90% don’t teach the knife defence, standing arm locks and standing wrist locks that GJJ has they simply only care about the sport aspect, just as the majority of judo schools don’t teach the striking aspect of the art and concentrateon the sport aspect
You also said

Again, there are thousands of Gracie schools who teach old school Bjj, and there are zero Judo schools teaching striking or old school Judo. How can you say that its the same situation?
Which again is not true, there are thousands of BJJ schools teaching BJJ not GJJ for self defense, and there are judo associations which teach both the striking and obsolete aspects of sport judo, such as leg locks, leg attack takedowns, etc IBC is one such organization in the UK. They spent more time on the original 10 katas of Judo, three of which have striking, knife and baton defense and standing choke and lock defences
How many teach judo like this, not may but the number is not zero, and as a percentage its probably the same number compared to how many BJJ clubs bother with the self defence syllabus created by the Gracie’s
The vast majority of Judo schools are OL clubs, just as the vast majority of BJJ are sport orientated schools
You also said

Nonsense. Gracie Jiu-Jitsu will teach you better transitions than Judo because they actively incorporate striking into their takedowns and ground fighting.
Which is probably true, but BJJ is not GJJ, and the number of GJJ schools is relatively small, its not thousands its probably not even hundreds at least not taught like how helio wanted it to be taught
BJJ which is the art that GJJ has turned into is not as good as judo for its transitions, the majority of BJJ clubs start their rolling from their knees, have little active throw training and spend 90% of their time on the floor rolling without strikes, now they might have a separate MMA class, but that isnt BJJ its MMA. The standard thing that happens when two people of similar training (a judoka and a BJJ player) meet is that the judo guy gets the throws 9 times out of 10 and the BJJ guy wins on the floor 9 times out of 10, from a self defence purpose on the street where there arent mats to land on and miost people cant breakfall which skill is better to have?

Has Judo become too restrictive and sport orientated, of course it has but this is NOT what Kano envisaged or wanted and anyone saying it was what he intended is simply ignoring facts, and whilst we can all acknowledge this is what has happened we also have to acknowledge that BJJ is going through exactly the same thing: butt scooting, pulling guard, extensive use of half guard, 50/50 guard upside down guard, x guard etc are all sport orientated positions and strategies and not useful for self defense

[BigPandaBear]

Has Judo become too restrictive and sport orientated, of course it has but this is NOT what Kano envisaged or wanted and anyone saying it was what he intended is simply ignoring facts, and whilst we can all acknowledge this is what has happened we also have to acknowledge that BJJ is going through exactly the same thing: butt scooting, pulling guard, extensive use of half guard, 50/50 guard upside down guard, x guard etc are all sport orientated positions and strategies and not useful for self defense

And again, the difference being that there are hundreds if not thousands of Gracie JJ schools and affiliates around the world still teaching old school Gjj. You could argue that there is a split between Gjj and Bjj, which is becoming more evident via Rickson Gracie starting his own federation, but to say that Bjj has become as sport oriented as Judo is simply ignoring the facts. There is no large opposing force against sport Judo like there is a large opposing force against sport Bjj. In other words, there are no Gracies in Judo attempting to pull it back to the roots of the style like there is in Bjj.

[BigPandaBear]

Agree with you there.

In one Judo forum, I suggested that Judo should have no-Gi training along with Gi training. My suggestion made many forum members unhappy and was treated as an attack to their Judo system. To move from Gi training to no-Gi training is not an easy task. When you don't have Gi to pull, many of your throwing skills won't work. You have to find equal replacement for your Gi pulling and that will require some

- extra grip strength training, and
- knowledge about the proper "pulling contact points".

Of course the Judo

- sleeve hold can be replaced by arm wrapping,
- lapel hold can be replaced by single neck tie.
- ...

by one still needs a lot of training to be able to replace it.

Exactly, and unlike Judo, Bjj has been doing that stuff for years.

I once attended a Judo club with a friend, and during randori I did a double leg takedown, and got scolded by the instructor for using an "illegal" technique.

People who believe that such a restrictive art is ever going to replace Bjj is simply fooling themselves. Bjj is eclectic by nature, Judo is rigid by nature. Hell, the founder of Judo restricted groundwork for god's sake.

[RickMatz]

And again, the difference being that there are hundreds if not thousands of Gracie JJ schools and affiliates around the world still teaching old school Gjj. You could argue that there is a split between Gjj and Bjj, which is becoming more evident via Rickson Gracie starting his own federation, but to say that Bjj has become as sport oriented as Judo is simply ignoring the facts. There is no large opposing force against sport Judo like there is a large opposing force against sport Bjj. In other words, there are no Gracies in Judo attempting to pull it back to the roots of the style like there is in Bjj.

Freestyle Judo (http://www.freestylejudo.org/)

[sanjuro_ronin]

If you really want judo the way it was SUPPOSED to be then it would basically be MMA with a gi or the Daidojuku.

Here is a excerpt about Maeda, the guy that brought Judo to Brasil:
Maeda thought of judo as the ultimate form of self-defense. To him, western arts such as boxing and wrestling were only games with a set of rules. Maeda's strategy in an anything goes fight was to set his opponent up with an elbow or low kick. He would then go for a throw and then finish his opponent off on the ground with a choke or joint lock.

and:
http://mancave.cbslocal.com/2013/11/21/ass-kicking-athletes-of-antiquity-maeda-mitsuyo/

http://books.google.ca/books?id=UHYcx0cJ16cC&pg=PA301&lpg=PA301&dq=Maeda+judo+kick+punch&source=bl&ots=hvw0Poi8g2&sig=dpK04mvCr1IrqKNHnqx6fAXX0Cw&hl=en&sa=X&ei=fqYhVLHjF46ryASKvYHoBw&ved=0CDwQ6AEwBQ#v=onepage&q=Maeda%20judo%20kick%20punch&f=false

[Kellen Bassette]

http://au.ibtimes.com/articles/579473/20150117/ronda-rousey-jiu-jitsu-quotes-offend-bia.htm#.VLsapkfF8ZM

[MightyB]

Watch How Different Jiu-Jitsu is when Sparring with Strikes (http://www.bjjee.com/videos/watch-how-different-jiu-jitsu-is-when-sparring-with-strikes/)


In the majority of Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu academies around the world, they will teach you the sport aspect of Jiu-Jitsu. This means no strikes, and little self defense, but more focus on the modern sweeps, guard passes etc..
We all watch MMA and have seen Jiu-Jitsu in an MMA fight (think of the first UFC’s), but what does a Jiu-Jitsu sparring session look like when you add strikes to the equation?
A Gracie Jiu-Jitsu black belt under Royler Gracie, Moshe Kaitz teaches Jiu-Jitsu the old fashion way: Defending against strikes. When you add striking, there is no room for most types of modern guard that may leave you exposed to strikes.

article about it linked above, video below:


http://youtu.be/Cn8-Qe30RBw

[MightyB]

I find this lost kata to be really cool:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aEBUPcWYdck

[GeneChing]

UFC FORCED TO WITHDRAW SUPPORT TO EUROPEAN JUDO CHAMPIONSHIPS (http://uk.ufc.com/news/UFC-Forced-to-Withdraw-Support-European-Judo-Championships)
February 13, 2015

London, UK – UFC, the world’s premier mixed martial arts organisation, is disappointed and saddened to announce it’s withdrawal of support to the European Judo Championships, following a threat from the European Judo Union (EJU) to cancel the event if UFC was to remain involved.

The EJU threatened to cancel the international event just eight weeks before it was due to take place on 9-12th April at the Emirates Arena in Glasgow, Scotland, possibly jeopardising many athletes’ journey to the 2016 Rio Olympic Games and harming the legacy of the Commonwealth Games, which took place in Glasgow in July 2014.

The UFC has agreed to step back and withdraw support from the event in the interest of Judo athletes and fans but continue to support British Judo and other combat sports federations and associations, remaining hopeful that the situation may be resolved in the future.

David Allen, Senior Vice President and General Manager UFC EMEA said: “We love to see sport thrive and athletes prosper, which is why the UFC prides itself on supporting all combat sports both mixed and individual disciplines. Our aim was to help Judo reach a new audience, increase promotion, help to sell tickets and create a buzz around the European judo Championships. It is disappointing to see that the European Judo Union cannot see the benefits of collaboration and celebration of all sports.”

Through their association with the British Combat Sports Federation, UFC was due to support the European Judo Championships with branding, marketing and also promotion of the event to their global audience of millions of engaged mixed martial artists – of which Judo is a founding discipline.

Just one week ago, mixed martial artists from Glasgow, one of whom started his career as a Scottish Judo champion, teamed up with Judo athletes at a press conference to begin promotion of the Championships. Robert Whiteford was thrilled to be involved in the event and said: “It’s superb to see the cross collaboration between mixed martial arts and individual combat sports, this is the development of sport and it’s important to embrace it. Sharing techniques, skills and knowledge is important for personal, professional and physical development. The UFC’s involvement in supporting the European Judo Championships cements that forward thinking.” Another development in the MMA/Judo luv affair...:rolleyes:

[MightyB]

Another development in the MMA/Judo luv affair...:rolleyes:

Point - Match - Win, goes to Gene Ching.

The EJF (and by extension, IJF) has officially killed Judo. It was a tough battle, but Judo cannot be saved from their stupidity and short sightedness. May BJJ adopt the many throws of Judo and not follow their sport oriented path to destruction.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Judo is and has been for a very long time, its own worse enemy.

[Jimbo]

Inclusion into the Olympics is the path to ruination for Asian MA (Judo, TKD). The ones who avoid that association tend to maintain much higher quality standards, IMO.

[GeneChing]

Point - Match - Win, goes to Gene Ching. I'd like to thank the Academy, my agent and all the nacho ninjettes that put me here. ;)

Judo was my first martial art. I moved on before my teenage years and never competed in it so I'm actually pretty naive about Judo politrix beyond chatting with some of the Judo coaches and athletes that come through our door.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Inclusion into the Olympics is the path to ruination for Asian MA (Judo, TKD). The ones who avoid that association tend to maintain much higher quality standards, IMO.

Unfortunately, you seem to be correct and, wrestling aside, it seems to apply to other MA as well ( though ruination may be to strong a word, pussification may be better).