View Full Version : Obasse & Kevin Gledhill chi sau
At any rate, you're completely missing or ignoring my point, which is about the importance of maintaining good structure no matter what you're doing. That's one of the objectives of chi-sau training. There is no value to most of what Obasi was doing because there was no root or structure.
And yet Obasi was the one man-handling Kevin and getting in shots while Kevin (with presumably good structure) was not. And what Obasi was doing had "no value"? It may not have been picture-perfect Wing Chun, but only a blind man would say it had no value. Evidently Kevin himself thought it had some value!!!! What has Wayfaring said several times? ....."this is ridiculous"....yes it is!
And yet Obasi was the one man-handling Kevin and getting in shots while Kevin (with presumably good structure) was not. And what Obasi was doing had "no value"? It may not have been picture-perfect Wing Chun, but only a blind man would say it had no value. Evidently Kevin himself thought it had some value!!!! What has Wayfaring said several times? ....."this is ridiculous"....yes it is!
It has value if you think this is what fighting is like and you win by shoving and scoring touch points, but neither in developmental chi-sau or the real world.
It has value if you think this is what fighting is like and you win by shoving and scoring touch points, but neither in developmental chi-sau or the real world.
So you don't think Obasi would have man-handled Kevin and got in multiple shots in the "real world" like he did in this Chi Sao? "Real fighting" is whatever gets the job done. WSL himself said to be WCK's master, not its slave. So if you don't think "this is what fighting is like", then you need a reality check.
So you don't think Obasi would have man-handled Kevin and got in multiple shots in the "real world" like he did in this Chi Sao? "Real fighting" is whatever gets the job done. WSL himself said to be WCK's master, not its slave. So if you don't think "this is what fighting is like", then you need a reality check.
First of all, what you idiots seem to be missing is that I was isolating a certain point for discussion rather than talking about the disaster of an exchange as a whole. Do you not agree that maintaining structure is important? Is that not one of the objectives of chi-sau, to maintain structure under slowly increased pressure? Do you think Obasi's b!tch tag is a meaningful offensive action that gets the job done? If you're suggesting Obasi would have behaved the same way in a real fight then it would be over for him quickly against anyone who knew how to just punch or kick to exploit his gaping holes or take advantage of his unbalanced overreaching. The only reason he handled Kevin is because they kept holding each other's wrists. If you are seriously imagining that chi-sau is what fighting is like, then I imagine your experience doesn't go beyond that. Reality check? :rolleyes: How about a Youtube check of Obasi's pro debut... He did a wonderful job manhandling that guy...
First of all, what you idiots seem to be missing is that I was isolating a certain point for discussion rather than talking about the disaster of an exchange as a whole. Do you not agree that maintaining structure is important? Is that not one of the objectives of chi-sau, to maintain structure under slowly increased pressure? Do you think Obasi's b!tch tag is a meaningful offensive action that gets the job done? If you're suggesting Obasi would have behaved the same way in a real fight then it would be over for him quickly against anyone who knew how to just punch or kick to exploit his gaping holes or take advantage of his unbalanced overreaching. The only reason he handled Kevin is because they kept holding each other's wrists. If you are seriously imagining that chi-sau is what fighting is like, then I imagine your experience doesn't go beyond that. Reality check? :rolleyes: How about a Youtube check of Obasi's pro debut... He did a wonderful job manhandling that guy...
Idiots? Really? :rolleyes: You've run out of anything else to keep this pointless thread going so you resort to name calling? You said that what Obasi did had little value. It sure seemed to me that you were referring to the clip as a whole when you said it and not "isolating a point". I pointed out that he was getting the job done against Kevin regardless of how ugly it looked. That's all that counts in a "real fight." If you don't think Obasi would have used more than "wrist holding" to put Kevin on his back in a real exchange, then yes you do need a reality check! There, I'm done. I will no longer participate in your pointless attempts to defend Kevin's performance in that clip.
LFJ, I admire your attempts to point out what is obvious to some of us here, but I would just give up. They dont want to hear it. They want this to be a true representation of Kevin's (and PB) Ving Tsun (although I suspect they must secretly realise it isn't).
They believe they are watching a valid "challenge match" even though one if the actual participants clearly doesnt think so.
They criticise Kevin's "performance" even though he has chosen not to "perform".
They believe what Obasi is doing with this double arm wrestling idea of "chi sao" is relevant to actual fighting and believe this is a fair representation of what would happen in a real fight. Leave them.
I have learned it is a complete waste of time trying to discuss VT with these guys. They will see what they want to see.
Apparently so. When it comes to defending wild b!tch slaps, arm struggling and shoving just so they don't have to give Kevin any points, I think any honest and fruitful discussion is over. If it had been two strangers in the video no one would've said any job had been gotten done.
leeshing
02-08-2014, 07:42 AM
I think that structure is of course important but we have to combine that with control and offensive actions regardless of the quality of the Chi Sau in this clip the important message here is can you defend and attack whilst being confronted with an unorthodox opponent structure is only good if you can answer yes to that if not it wouldnt matter once the punches and kicks rain in we have to be honest with ourselves and our training methods
Apparently so. When it comes to defending wild b!tch slaps, arm struggling and shoving just so they don't have to give Kevin any points, I think any honest and fruitful discussion is over. If it had been two strangers in the video no one would've said any job had been gotten done.
OK. My last comment. T Ray you are a little late to the party. The whole idea of "pointless" goes in both directions.
LFJ, the point was made long ago that Kevin and Obasi had words on the internet, agreed to meet to settle something, Kevin knew that Obasi had a cameraman filming for him, and it quickly became apparent that Obasi had something more than a friendly roll in mind. How could Kevin NOT know that Obasi was going to put the pressure on him? Yet we see nothing from Kevin other than some "good structure." This is the same Kevin that has told us all how superior his PBVT is to everyone else's Wing Chun, how no one learned the "correct" Wing Chun from WSL except PB, and how we are all doing some kind of misunderstood and deficient version of Wing Chun. Here he had a chance to show what he has been talking about.....and he didn't. Sure, if this had been two strangers we wouldn't have been having this conversation. But it wasn't. And like I said before, I'm pretty sure that if this had been Obasi man-handling a Leung Ting guy in a very similar clip that BWVT posted, the PBVT guys would have been out in force on that thread! LFJ, did you ever stop and wonder why you are the only one defending Kevin here? Where are his PBVT compadres? They have certainly never hesitated to take up the PBVT banner in the past!
If Kevin can't cope with a bigger stronger man doing a little "arm grabbing" in Chi Sao, how in the heck is he going to deal with the same man shooting in for a takedown or bum-rushing him to a bear-hug? If Kevin can't use his superior PBVT knowledge to angle, redirect, and control Obasi's momentum and arms and simply shut him down in Chi Sao, how is he going to stop the same man charging in on him intent to take him out in a real exchange? Chi Sao is indeed a training tool only. But it should be for training real-world skills. Maybe Kevin simply chose not to perform or do anything. That seems like a strong possibility to me! All we have been saying is that after all his hype and trash talking, Kevin did not live up to his own legend in that particular clip! Yet you continue to want to defend him when neither he or his PBVT cronies feel the need to do so.
T Ray says you have attempted to point out what is obvious to many here, but we have refused to listen. Hmmmm. Seems to me he has that backwards. :rolleyes:
LFJ, the point was made long ago that Kevin and Obasi had words on the internet, agreed to meet to settle something,
Had words about what? No one seems to know exactly, but everyone seems to assume they agreed to settle whatever it was with a chi-sau "challenge match", completely ignoring how illogical it would be since Kevin constantly stresses that chi-sau is not a fight or competition- not to mention him stopping at the end to say "this isn't our chi-sau", suggesting that they were somehow exchanging ideas about the drill, as if this were Obasi's round on offense. Again, a lot can be assumed.
How could Kevin NOT know that Obasi was going to put the pressure on him? Yet we see nothing from Kevin other than some "good structure."
As said previously, you're assuming a lot about what you don't know- namely what came before and after those 40 seconds. My whole involvement in this thread has been to discourage all the assumption and jumping to conclusions, as attractive as that is to all of you who have had your lineages insulted by Kevin and would love some heavy dirt on him.
Here he had a chance to show what he has been talking about.....and he didn't.
For reasons you know not, yet you're very willing to make the assumption most enticing to you.
LFJ, did you ever stop and wonder why you are the only one defending Kevin here? Where are his PBVT compadres? They have certainly never hesitated to take up the PBVT banner in the past!
Like Graham? He was called out and gave his reason for not participating in the thread. I don't need to stop and wonder.
Maybe Kevin simply chose not to perform or do anything. That seems like a strong possibility to me!
Then what's with all the assumption and criticism if what you'd like to think you're seeing is not even certain?
Frost
02-08-2014, 10:12 AM
Everyone knows what your whole involvement is about LFJ...its quite funny really...sad but funny :)
Idiots? Really? :rolleyes: You've run out of anything else to keep this pointless thread going so you resort to name calling?
I "resorted" to name calling because I honestly don't know how you two were missing the point I put very clearly, unless you and Wayfaring were purposely being stubborn, in which case I should use another name. :)
I pointed out that he was getting the job done against Kevin regardless of how ugly it looked.
One of the landed "strikes" you pointed out specifically was that arched back, overreaching b!tch tap. That was really the only thing that landed cleanly besides maybe the awkward hiccuping knee things. If that's "getting the job done" to you, you haven't held much serious employment.
GlennR
02-08-2014, 05:45 PM
One of the landed "strikes" you pointed out specifically was that arched back, overreaching b!tch tap. That was really the only thing that landed cleanly besides maybe the awkward hiccuping knee things. If that's "getting the job done" to you, you haven't held much serious employment.
Wow, imagine what someone would have done to Kev then if they actually knew what they were doing ;)
Wow, imagine what someone would have done to Kev then if they actually knew what they were doing ;)
Anyone can get caught by anyone. Obasi said he likes Kevin and to imagine if he didn't like him. Well, it's hard to imagine and imagining things is often what gets you knocked out. As Mike Tyson said; "Everyone has a plan — until they get punched in the face."
Anyone can get caught by anyone. Obasi said he likes Kevin and to imagine if he didn't like him. Well, it's hard to imagine and imagining things is often what gets you knocked out. As Mike Tyson said; "Everyone has a plan — until they get punched in the face."
Yeah! Maybe that explains Kevin's performance! He had a plan, until that first knee smacked him in the chest! ;)
But you go on trying to apologize it all away. You're only making it worse at this point. :rolleyes:
tc101
02-09-2014, 06:06 AM
Wow, imagine what someone would have done to Kev then if they actually knew what they were doing ;)
Many here have criticized Obassi's chi sau as having poor form, poor balance, and so forth, so aren't all these weaknesses and problems really openings or opportunities for someone with the skills to take advantage of them? If not, then why would they be considered errors or poor wing chun? If a person can't take advantage of these things significant errors, what does that say? What does it matter how your partner plays their chi sau, so what if what they do is not your chi sau or if they have a different concept or idea? Regardless of how they play it, the real question is do I have the skills to deal with what they are doing and take advantage of or use their mistakes against them.
One a side note, this was chi sau between two individuals and only that. No generalities about their respective lineages or training approach is valid.
Frost
02-09-2014, 06:32 AM
Many here have criticized Obassi's chi sau as having poor form, poor balance, and so forth, so aren't all these weaknesses and problems really openings or opportunities for someone with the skills to take advantage of them? If not, then why would they be considered errors or poor wing chun? If a person can't take advantage of these things significant errors, what does that say? What does it matter how your partner plays their chi sau, so what if what they do is not your chi sau or if they have a different concept or idea? Regardless of how they play it, the real question is do I have the skills to deal with what they are doing and take advantage of or use their mistakes against them.
One a side note, this was chi sau between two individuals and only that. No generalities about their respective lineages or training approach is valid.
actually when you say many you should really say one person as only one guy has really gone to town on seans chi sao and that guy is desperate to defend another wsl lineage person he is becoming a laughing stock here....Glenn was being sarcastic and responding to said person, most here have said good things about sean
GlennR
02-09-2014, 03:24 PM
Many here have criticized Obassi's chi sau as having poor form, poor balance, and so forth, so aren't all these weaknesses and problems really openings or opportunities for someone with the skills to take advantage of them? If not, then why would they be considered errors or poor wing chun? If a person can't take advantage of these things significant errors, what does that say? What does it matter how your partner plays their chi sau, so what if what they do is not your chi sau or if they have a different concept or idea? Regardless of how they play it, the real question is do I have the skills to deal with what they are doing and take advantage of or use their mistakes against them.
One a side note, this was chi sau between two individuals and only that. No generalities about their respective lineages or training approach is valid.
And i think you need to note the use of sarcasm, it was used liberally in my post that you replied to. FWIW, i had no problem with what either of the guys did......... full power to them to meet up and video it in the 1st place, as i said in another post, catch up and do it all again. The pair of them will only learn from it.
Oh, nice to see you back Dom ;)
Many here have criticized Obassi's chi sau as having poor form, poor balance, and so forth, so aren't all these weaknesses and problems really openings or opportunities for someone with the skills to take advantage of them?
Yes, but it depends on what sort of agreement was made prior to those 40 seconds we saw. So far people are only making assumptions and jumping to conclusions without sufficient information.
What does it matter how your partner plays their chi sau, so what if what they do is not your chi sau or if they have a different concept or idea? Regardless of how they play it, the real question is do I have the skills to deal with what they are doing and take advantage of or use their mistakes against them.
In my opinion, as I've expressed, chi-sau is a developmental drill designed to develop skills specific to your lineage in the particular way it is understood in your lineage. If you go outside of that you lose the point and value of the drill. It just becomes a sort of artificial competition, fight, or game which gives people a false impression of fighting ability.
Sure, chi-sau is meant to be a stepping stone to translate your training into fighting ability, but if you want to test and compete against other styles it should be done in free sparring. I personally look upon other WCK lineages as other styles, because their thinking can be so vastly different to my own. So I chi-sau within my lineage to develop skills used to face other styles in free fighting.
I will never understand why Wing Chun people get together and just want to play their favorite game of chi-sau rather than spar. Having fun and being good in chi-sau may be their ultimate training goal, but it's not mine.
that guy is desperate to defend another wsl lineage person
Actually I have no problem openly criticizing others in the WSL lineage with whom I disagree. This is a discussion forum and I've done plenty of that here as well with a couple 1st gen. students. Just being honest about where I agree and disagree and why. I think many of you who are complimenting Obasi's work here are not being 100% honest. If this were two strangers in the video no one would have a good word to say about either of them. KPM goes off on how poorly Kevin performed, then acknowledges just in passing that it's highly possible he wasn't actually performing at all. So, it appears some of you are attaching to the most enticing assumption against Kevin after being butthurt by his arrogance and criticism. If we're being honest, the whole exchange, whatever the setting, was unimpressive on both sides.
tc101
02-10-2014, 05:33 AM
Yes, but it depends on what sort of agreement was made prior to those 40 seconds we saw. So far people are only making assumptions and jumping to conclusions without sufficient information.
I am making no assumptions. What I see are two people trying to use their wing chun tools against their partner - and that is what gor sau or free form chi sau is.
In my opinion, as I've expressed, chi-sau is a developmental drill designed to develop skills specific to your lineage in the particular way it is understood in your lineage. If you go outside of that you lose the point and value of the drill. It just becomes a sort of artificial competition, fight, or game which gives people a false impression of fighting ability.
Your definition is overly narrow. Yes it is a developmental drill or exercise to learn and practice using the wing chun tools. If a person has trouble using their wing chun tools it is not the fault of their partner. WSL as well as most notable wing chun teachers were not limited to only doing chi sau or gor sau with people in their own lineage.
Sure, chi-sau is meant to be a stepping stone to translate your training into fighting ability, but if you want to test and compete against other styles it should be done in free sparring. I personally look upon other WCK lineages as other styles, because their thinking can be so vastly different to my own. So I chi-sau within my lineage to develop skills used to face other styles in free fighting.
I will never understand why Wing Chun people get together and just want to play their favorite game of chi-sau rather than spar. Having fun and being good in chi-sau may be their ultimate training goal, but it's not mine.
I do not understand this stuff about thinking being different. Chi sau is an exercise to practice certain wing chun skills so it is not surprising that wing chun people would do it when they get together. Sparring is another exercise to practice wing chun skills. People should do both.
I am making no assumptions.
Wasn't referring to you.
Your definition is overly narrow. Yes it is a developmental drill or exercise to learn and practice using the wing chun tools. If a person has trouble using their wing chun tools it is not the fault of their partner.
That's fine. We apparently have different thinking as to the purpose of chi-sau and its place in the training of our system.
I do not understand this stuff about thinking being different.
That's kind of my point.
Chi sau is an exercise to practice certain wing chun skills so it is not surprising that wing chun people would do it when they get together. Sparring is another exercise to practice wing chun skills. People should do both.
I agree, but I'm afraid many people get too attached to playing chi-sau and neglect a more realistic fight training. I would like to see free sparring be given the importance chi-sau enjoys and become the focal point of these kinds of exchanges.
LJF said:
KPM goes off on how poorly Kevin performed, then acknowledges just in passing that it's highly possible he wasn't actually performing at all. So, it appears some of you are attaching to the most enticing assumption against Kevin after being butthurt by his arrogance and criticism. If we're being honest, the whole exchange, whatever the setting, was unimpressive on both sides.
Ok. The following point has been made MULTIPLE times on this thread, but I'll say it again for those that seem a little slow.
1. Kevin and Obasi exchanged words...whatever they may be...on the internet. They agreed to meet.
2. Obasi had a cameraman in attendance filming the whole thing.
3. It became obvious within about 5 seconds that Obasi had something in mind other than a friendly roll in Chi Sao.
4. Kevin did not perform well at all other than possibly maintaining some decent structure, and was actually hit (even though lightly) on several occasions.
5. Kevin has, for several years now, extolled the virtues of PBVT and how much superior it is to other Wing Chun, often in a somewhat rude and insulting manner to other lineages.
6. Those of us here that are very familiar with #5 certainly expected to see more from Kevin considering #1, 2, & 3 above.
Butthurt? No. Disappointed? Yes! I would have liked to see Kevin control Obasi like it was no big deal and "school" him like Emin Boztepe did! I would have liked to see some of the things he was talking about from PBVT demonstrated against a resisting partner rather than in a drill like we see in so many of the PBVT videos. I would have liked to see Kevin proven right about everything he has written about PBVT. A lot of what he has written (when he isn't being a total axx) makes sense and is pretty good. I like what I've seen of PB on video. But it didn't happen. Did Kevin CHOOSE not to perform? Maybe! But that's irrelavant to the point. The point is that he DIDN'T! Whether because he couldn't or chose not to is unclear. But he DIDN'T! And now LFJ has spent pages trying to defend his poor performance for some reason and has chosen to ignore these simple points. But the rest of us are "idiots" for seeing what should be obvious. Go figure! :rolleyes:
Welcome back to the thread KP!
Actually, I haven't directly "defended" his poor performance based on what he did. I agree it is not what you'd expect or hope to see if this were a real challenge. I think there were many things he could have done better nonetheless, and I mentioned those things early in the thread. I don't think there is a defense for either of them. I'm simply encouraging people to not make their happy assumptions based on no more information than hearsay of some sort of "argument" and 39 seconds of video.
Grumblegeezer
02-10-2014, 09:46 AM
I'm simply encouraging people to not make their happy assumptions based on no more information than hearsay of some sort of "argument" and 39 seconds of video.
That's fair enough. Now let's bury this thread.
BTW did you check out the new PB-WSLVT sparring clip posted by BPWT. It's far more interesting than this.
Many here have criticized Obassi's chi sau as having poor form, poor balance, and so forth, so aren't all these weaknesses and problems really openings or opportunities for someone with the skills to take advantage of them? If not, then why would they be considered errors or poor wing chun? If a person can't take advantage of these things significant errors, what does that say? What does it matter how your partner plays their chi sau, so what if what they do is not your chi sau or if they have a different concept or idea? Regardless of how they play it, the real question is do I have the skills to deal with what they are doing and take advantage of or use their mistakes against them.
One a side note, this was chi sau between two individuals and only that. No generalities about their respective lineages or training approach is valid.
Now that you had able to put this whole mess in perspective ... hows your winter weather? We hit 80's here yesterday.
slick69
02-11-2014, 05:44 AM
Now that you had able to put this whole mess in perspective
This is an explanation for what happened from Obasi.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xOqfC7jYj88&feature=youtube_gdata_player
Basically Kevin was badmouthing as per usual and Obasi went to test him out.
Frost
02-11-2014, 06:22 AM
This is an explanation for what happened from Obasi.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xOqfC7jYj88&feature=youtube_gdata_player
Basically Kevin was badmouthing as per usual and Obasi went to test him out.
no really, im shocked....well im shocked someone actually went and called him out on it...wonder what all those pro boxers kevin man handles felt about the outcome :)
JPinAZ
02-11-2014, 08:59 AM
This is an explanation for what happened from Obasi.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xOqfC7jYj88&feature=youtube_gdata_player
Basically Kevin was badmouthing as per usual and Obasi went to test him out.
Per shawns own admission, he went to see Kev because kev said that shawn has no root, balance, whatever. Well, all he did was prove Kev right in the idiotic 'challenge match' clip..
Now, can someone lock this thread?
slick69
02-11-2014, 09:42 AM
Per shawns own admission, he went to see Kev because kev said that shawn has no root, balance, whatever. Well, all he did was prove Kev right in the idiotic 'challenge match' clip..
Now, can someone lock this thread?
And Kev proved his fighting skills belong to the forums...
tc101
02-11-2014, 11:35 AM
Per shawns own admission, he went to see Kev because kev said that shawn has no root, balance, whatever. Well, all he did was prove Kev right in the idiotic 'challenge match' clip..
No I do not think the lesson here was Kev was right.
Now, can someone lock this thread?
Why? Can you just not read things that do not interest you?
JPinAZ
02-11-2014, 01:15 PM
No I do not think the lesson here was Kev was right.
That's ok, everyone is entitled to their opinion. Regardless if shawn was able to push/pull kev around, IMO kev's assement of his WC root/balance were solidified on the clip, and that's all I was talking about.
Now, if you think Shawn's holding, leaning and shoving to the point his feet came off the ground was demonstrative of good wing chun root and balance, I won't argue - clearly our definitions of those things are very different.
Why? Can you just not read things that do not interest you?
I just figured the horse was beaten to death already about 10 pages back. It's actually pretty entertaining the attention this joke of a so-called 'challenge match' has been given. Heck, even I'm guilty of it. No sweat off my back if it gets another 20 pages. :rolleyes:
tc101
02-11-2014, 03:47 PM
That's ok, everyone is entitled to their opinion. Regardless if shawn was able to push/pull kev around, IMO kev's assement of his WC root/balance were solidified on the clip, and that's all I was talking about.
Now, if you think Shawn's holding, leaning and shoving to the point his feet came off the ground was demonstrative of good wing chun root and balance, I won't argue - clearly our definitions of those things are very different.
I think the lesson, as I understood from Obasi's explanation video, was not that Obasi was trying to show good model wing chun but was trying to show Kev despite his thinking and opinions on what good wing chun is that he could not deal with what he considers "bad" wing chun and that Obasi was emphasizing the "badness" to make a point (that seems lost on some).
Root or balance or structure or whatever are not simply good in and of themselves but are only as good in how they increase your performance ability. They are just a part of what goes into the mix that makes up your performance. Skilled people can play with the variables, like structure or form or balance, and still perform at a high level. Like the"drunken" masters.
I just figured the horse was beaten to death already about 10 pages back. It's actually pretty entertaining the attention this joke of a so-called 'challenge match' has been given. Heck, even I'm guilty of it. No sweat off my back if it gets another 20 pages. :rolleyes:
Here's where we differ, I do not think this challenge match was a joke. I think it provides food for thought.
JPinAZ
02-11-2014, 04:15 PM
I think the lesson, as I understood from Obasi's explanation video, was not that Obasi was trying to show good model wing chun but was trying to show Kev despite his thinking and opinions on what good wing chun is that he could not deal with what he considers "bad" wing chun and that Obasi was emphasizing the "badness" to make a point (that seems lost on some).
Obasi also thinks entering with chain punches is good wing chun (per one of his 'workshop' videos). :rolleyes: So, while I appreciate your efforts to clarify things and defend him, I'm find it difficult buying that he was 'purposely' doing 'bad' wing chun in this clip by giving up root, structure and posture to prove a point. At least he's never stated as such anywhere AFAIA.
FWIW, I've seen several of his demo videos where he has the exact same issues, which more than likely is what caused Kev to share the same view that sparked this whole silly thing.
Here's where we differ, I do not think this challenge match was a joke. I think it provides food for thought.
Opinions vary, but fair enough.
My final thought and then I'm bowing out of this conversation: the clip was orginally labeled 'chi sau challenge match', I find that more than a bit oxymoronic don't you?
I think the lesson, as I understood from Obasi's explanation video, was not that Obasi was trying to show good model wing chun but was trying to show Kev despite his thinking and opinions on what good wing chun is that he could not deal with what he considers "bad" wing chun and that Obasi was emphasizing the "badness" to make a point (that seems lost on some).
.
Hey tc101! We actually agree on something! ;)
This is an explanation for what happened from Obasi.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xOqfC7jYj88&feature=youtube_gdata_player
Basically Kevin was badmouthing as per usual and Obasi went to test him out.
Thank you slick and Mr. Obasi for providing clarification. Obasi backed up everything so far except the one "assumption" that we had wrong. Kevin's guy was the cameraman and not Obasi's! So now, wouldn't one think.....if you were bringing your OWN camera and cameraman you would be planning on actually performing something for the camera? So, why would Kevin CHOOSE not to actually show some PBVT when he even brought his own cameraman to film things? Seems odd to me. :confused:
Sihing73
02-11-2014, 08:42 PM
Thank you slick and Mr. Obasi for providing clarification. Obasi backed up everything so far except the one "assumption" that we had wrong. Kevin's guy was the cameraman and not Obasi's! So now, wouldn't one think.....if you were bringing your OWN camera and cameraman you would be planning on actually performing something for the camera? So, why would Kevin CHOOSE not to actually show some PBVT when he even brought his own cameraman to film things? Seems odd to me. :confused:
Hmm, well Leung Ting used a guy wearing a T-Shirt with "I am Wrong" on it in some of his videos.
This was to show the wrong or incorrect way of doing things.
Maybe that is what Kev had in mind with this video................to show the wrong way to do things. Maybe he just did not get the T-shirt printed in time. :D
Seriously, Kev is taking a lot of crap for the video and it may be somewhat deserved based on past comments from him, but I do wonder why, if his guy shot the video, it even got posted at all.
I am thinking that if I called someone out and they showed up and handed me my butt and it was me or mine who shot the video it would go into a Black Hole somewhere and not be posted so everyone could point out my shortcomings. .................. Then again, I would hope I am smart enough not to alienate almost everyone by pointing out how my way is soooo superior and how no one else got it right. ;)
I think the lesson, as I understood from Obasi's explanation video, was not that Obasi was trying to show good model wing chun but was trying to show Kev despite his thinking and opinions on what good wing chun is that he could not deal with what he considers "bad" wing chun and that Obasi was emphasizing the "badness" to make a point (that seems lost on some).
Emphasizing the badness? What? He never said that. Kevin criticized him for having no root or structure, so he went to challenge Kevin's root and structure. That's what it says in the video description and that's what he says in his video explanation.
He said he was pushing and pulling in order to test Kevin's root and structure. Never did he say he was "emphasizing the 'badness'". In fact, he said "if my structure's garbage I shouldn't be able to pull you from one side of the room to another. For me, that's straight mastery".
So he obviously thinks highly of his performance and what he was demonstrating was his superior root and structure. What you and KPM are STILL doing is making the assumptions you want to make, even when the information is given to you straight from the horse's mouth.
Kevin's guy was the cameraman and not Obasi's! So now, wouldn't one think.....if you were bringing your OWN camera and cameraman you would be planning on actually performing something for the camera? So, why would Kevin CHOOSE not to actually show some PBVT when he even brought his own cameraman to film things? Seems odd to me. :confused:
Very odd indeed. If it were Kevin's video, how would it end up on Obasi's youtube channel with the title "Chi Sao Challenge Match"? And why is Kevin's guy taking direction to cut from Obasi? Obasi's in their gym, the camera rolls whether he likes it or not. There's only 39 seconds there. I'm sure they got together and exchanged more ideas for longer than just that 39 seconds. The before and after, whatever it is, was not shown.
BPWT..
02-12-2014, 03:06 AM
Root or balance or structure or whatever are not simply good in and of themselves but are only as good in how they increase your performance ability. They are just a part of what goes into the mix that makes up your performance.
As tc101 points out, having good balance and structure are only part of the mix - and what's the point of having them if you can't use them; and what's the point of someone (Kevin) saying that Obasi doesn't have good structure and balance, if he (Kevin) can't exploit the fact?
Kevin wasn't able to exploit Obasi or stop Obasi from dominating him during the exchange.
LFJ has maintained that Kevin didn't fail to do anything because he wasn't trying to do anything against Obasi:
He [Kevin] didn't even make a failed attempt.
But later claims that Kevin was able to make an attempt and to do so with some success as he attack with a palm strike:
...At :21 they came together. Kevin was on the inside, then switched to the outside. When their roll came back down he swam back under and did a palm strike from the inside that caused Obasi to jerk his head back...
You can't have it both ways. Either he was trying against Obasi or he wasn't. IMO, Kevin was trying but not doing very well. Whether Kevin has good structure and/or Obasi has bad structure is beyond the point - as Kevin couldn't take advantage of either case, and got tossed around.
As for whatever happened before or after the video was rolling (regardless of who shot it) well we don't know - and Kevin hasn't posted to explain the situation. All Kevin has done on this thread is post to commend Obasi and say that Obasi took him to his limits.
More odd, in my mind, is that Kevin hasn't explained his take on what he was doing or not doing; nor has he addressed the claims that PB is unhappy with Kevin's ability and that Kevin had only trained with PB twice in seven years (as Slick posted regarding the former, and Obasi wrote on his Facebook wall regarding the latter).
If nothing else, I would have expected someone from the PBVT line to have clarified these points if they are in error. Of course, if they are true it would a) go some way to explaining Kevin's reluctance to post on the forum now, and b) go some way to explaining the poor performance in the video clip.
Whatever :D:D:
You can't have it both ways. Either he was trying against Obasi or he wasn't.
Since the only thing he did offensively was pulled, I don't really see that he was trying very hard. Obasi at least made light contact even though it meant nothing. If he could hit Obasi in the jaw with a well-structured palm strike, he could've easily moved in with it and waved him out to show his structure and root. But he didn't... so I don't really know what Kevin was doing in the exchange and he ain't talkin'.
That's the most disappointing thing with this clip. Not what happened or didn't happen, but that Kevin isn't willing to discuss it, even if he was bested. He was very vocal on this forum but seems like he hasn't been back since this incident. Hopefully bruised ego hasn't kept him away because he does add value to the forum with much of his contributions nonetheless.
tc101
02-12-2014, 04:43 AM
Emphasizing the badness? What? He never said that. Kevin criticized him for having no root or structure, so he went to challenge Kevin's root and structure. That's what it says in the video description and that's what he says in his video explanation.
He said he was pushing and pulling in order to test Kevin's root and structure. Never did he say he was "emphasizing the 'badness'". In fact, he said "if my structure's garbage I shouldn't be able to pull you from one side of the room to another. For me, that's straight mastery".
So he obviously thinks highly of his performance and what he was demonstrating was his superior root and structure. What you and KPM are STILL doing is making the assumptions you want to make, even when the information is given to you straight from the horse's mouth.
Yes he never explicitly said it but it is clear that is what he is doing. Kevin says Obassi has poor root etc and Obassi exaggerates it to toss Kevin around. Obassi's comment is if I have no root or structure then how can I toss Kevin around since you need root and structure to do that. He shows that his root and structure is superior since he can use his to dominate his partners.
If Kev's chi sau is an entirely different animal than everyone else's as you maintain - did not WSL chi sau come from YM? Was not WSL able to chi sau with people besides his students? - then why would he ever agree to do chi sau with any nonPBVT person? Would he not be "defenseless" and whole thing pointless since he has some different idea?
I am thinking that if I called someone out and they showed up and handed me my butt and it was me or mine who shot the video it would go into a Black Hole somewhere and not be posted so everyone could point out my shortcomings. .................. Then again, I would hope I am smart enough not to alienate almost everyone by pointing out how my way is soooo superior and how no one else got it right. ;)
I'd have to go back and watch Obasi's youtube vid again, but I think I understood him to say that Kevin's guy did the filming, and that Kevin also brought a camera, implying maybe that Kevin's guy did the filming but using Obasi's camera.
why would he ever agree to do chi sau with any nonPBVT person? Would he not be "defenseless" and whole thing pointless since he has some different idea?
Good question. Strange that he would willingly participate in a "Chi Sau Challenge Match" when he maintains that chi-sau is not a fight or any sort of competition. Don't know why he doesn't respond himself. And yes, the whole thing was pointless. Chi-sau between people with such vastly different ideas about what they're doing generally turn into a mess like this.
I think much more would come from chi-sauing within your lineage to develop the skills of your system, then going to test it in free sparring with others. The chi-sau culture is a sham. It can't be called fight training if chi-sau is as realistic as you get. Free sparring is the closest most people will get to free fighting. It should be given way more emphasis.
tc101
02-12-2014, 05:16 AM
Good question. Strange that he would willingly participate in a "Chi Sau Challenge Match" when he maintains that chi-sau is not a fight or any sort of competition. Don't know why he doesn't respond himself. And yes, the whole thing was pointless. Chi-sau between people with such vastly different ideas about what they're doing generally turn into a mess like this.
I think much more would come from chi-sauing within your lineage to develop the skills of your system, then going to test it in free sparring with others. The chi-sau culture is a sham. It can't be called fight training if chi-sau is as realistic as you get. Free sparring is the closest most people will get to free fighting. It should be given way more emphasis.
There are various ways and different levels of tests of a persons wing chun skills. Chi sau is a LIMITED exercise but an exercise that uses our wing chun skills, so our ability doing the drill is some indication of our skill level using our wing chun. If you cannot do something in chi sau then certainly you will not be able to do it in sparring or fighting.
The problem with restricting chi sau to your own little group is that often you become accustomed to only seeing and dealing with the same very limited things and so your thinking to use your word becomes distorted. For example if I practice limp noodle chi sau it is easy when my partner is also doing limp noodle chi sau and giving me limp noodle energy. I may then begin to think that limp noodle is THE answer. Of course should I meet some nonnoodler who dominates me I can always excuse my performance by saying well we just have different ideas of chi sau and if we had only fought the real power of the noodle would become clear.
Sihing73
02-12-2014, 05:53 AM
Morning,
My take on Chi Sau has always been that it is a training drill for sensitivity, not for fighting.
To me, Chi Sau is how one trains to deal with the energy presented by the opponent.
Much like Yip Man stated; "Your opponent tells you how to defeat him"
Again, to me, the result of Chi Sau is to permit you to engage the opponent with no need for conscious thought. Kind of like the idea of "Mushin".
You engage and simply react to what you are presented with and do not need to think about all that is going on.
Of course this is not some magic formula for success nor is it something which happens overnight. Also, it is not the end all be all of Wing Chun, as many seem to think. It is a piece of the pie which, when the attributes developed through this drill are incorporated with other parts of the system such as sparring etc, can make for a powerful tool.
If you work the dummy then you will get feedback which will tell you about your stance, for example. This feedback can also, imo, carry over to improving your Chi Sau as you must learn to flow around the dummy and the contact points will help to refine your energy, both in exerting and receiving.
When I was under WT we trained in sections of Chi Sau.
Each section, imo, taught one about dealing with a specific type of energy.
Once all the sections were learned then you free flowed and the goal was to simply react and not to have any set pattern.
Again this was my experience as to my training.
To me, it should not matter what the opponent does as "Chi Sau", since I train to accept and read the energy presented it really should not matter if my opponent/partner does things differently. I should be able to react to what is presented. Now keeping in mind the purpose of the drill this does not mean that I should automatically "WIN". It means that I should be able to read and accept what is given to me. Some things will get through and I may be hit. But, this simply means that I need to work on improving my sensitivity to whatever energy was presented to me and got through. Since Chi Sau is a training drill it should be a learning experience and an opportunity to refine ones listening skills not a competition or some sort of fight.
FWIW, I have done Chi Sau with others from various lineages and in some cases learned from the experience. I have run into those who will not Chi Sau outside of their lineage and while I respect their opinion, I feel they do themselves and students a disservice by ignoring the chance to be exposed to something outside of their comfort zone. I have also done Chi Sau with some outside the WC system. Of course this could not be considered "Chi Sau" per se but I did try to remain within the parameters. For example I had a Tai Chi guy who wanted to compare his Push Hands to Chi Sau. I found that he left his center open and I was able to strike him. However, I did find the way he parried and tried to guide my energy interesting. This was not some sort of competition but an exchange which we hopefully each brought something from, too bad we cannot do this within our system all of the time.
Bottom line is that just because someone does something differently it should not prohibit an exchange. The key to me is to be open to learning something, not competing and perhaps most importantly not trying to play the others game. Try to apply what you train in the unfamiliar environment presented by something different.
The problem with restricting chi sau to your own little group is that often you become accustomed to only seeing and dealing with the same very limited things and so your thinking to use your word becomes distorted.
Maybe if chi-sau is as realistic as your training ever gets. I don't use chi-sau as some sort of equivalent or replacement for live sparring. Not only is what we do in chi-sau apparently different, but in fact the entire purpose of it if you think it limits experience, or that experiences like this exchange are at all fruitful.
I have run into those who will not Chi Sau outside of their lineage and while I respect their opinion, I feel they do themselves and students a disservice by ignoring the chance to be exposed to something outside of their comfort zone.
Simple solution. Actually spar. Spar with many people from many styles. The ultimate goal of training the entire system is to develop fighting skill. So why should free sparring not be the go-to test of skill between fighters? Being stuck on such an artificial level at chi-sau is just lying to oneself. For me, chi-sau is only an exchange of force to develop structure, speed, power, and reflexes. If I'm going to test my skill against another fighter I won't do a developmental drill with them, especially if they train a completely different system. I will do the closest thing we can do to fighting, which is sparring.
slick69
02-12-2014, 07:12 AM
Simple solution. Actually spar. Spar with many people from many styles. The ultimate goal of training the entire system is to develop fighting skill. So why should free sparring not be the go-to test of skill between fighters? Being stuck on such an artificial level at chi-sau is just lying to oneself. For me, chi-sau is only an exchange of force to develop structure, speed, power, and reflexes. If I'm going to test my skill against another fighter I won't do a developmental drill with them, especially if they train a completely different system. I will do the closest thing we can do to fighting, which is sparring.
This is just an excuse not to chi-sau. Chi-sau is the way to test ones ability in Wing Chun pure and simple. In my experience whenever people refuse to chi-sau it's to hide there limited ability in Wing Chun, then when they spar they look like headless chickens...
This is just an excuse not to chi-sau. Chi-sau is the way to test ones ability in Wing Chun pure and simple. In my experience whenever people refuse to chi-sau it's to hide there limited ability in Wing Chun, then when they spar they look like headless chickens...
Haha, okay. Make an excuse to not chi-sau and just fight, because chi-sau is a more realistic test of skill?
I'd think those who don't spar and just chi-sau are the ones hiding from something. How is doing something far closer to realistic free fighting a way to hide limited ability? What is your ultimate training goal? Not to fight? If chi-sau is the highest test of skill in your Wing Chun, then that shows what your ultimate training goal is. You won't even be facing people outside of the style. You're lying to yourself.
There are various ways and different levels of tests of a persons wing chun skills. Chi sau is a LIMITED exercise but an exercise that uses our wing chun skills, so our ability doing the drill is some indication of our skill level using our wing chun. If you cannot do something in chi sau then certainly you will not be able to do it in sparring or fighting.
The problem with restricting chi sau to your own little group is that often you become accustomed to only seeing and dealing with the same very limited things and so your thinking to use your word becomes distorted. For example if I practice limp noodle chi sau it is easy when my partner is also doing limp noodle chi sau and giving me limp noodle energy. I may then begin to think that limp noodle is THE answer. Of course should I meet some nonnoodler who dominates me I can always excuse my performance by saying well we just have different ideas of chi sau and if we had only fought the real power of the noodle would become clear.
Wow tc101! One again I find myself agreeing with you! ;)
Emphasizing the badness? What you and KPM are STILL doing is making the assumptions you want to make, even when the information is given to you straight from the horse's mouth.
"Straight from the horse's mouth" backed up every part of my previous summary except the part about who was holding the camera. So just maybe its YOU that is making too many assumptions here!
"Straight from the horse's mouth" backed up every part of my previous summary except the part about who was holding the camera.
Um, no it didn't.
slick69
02-12-2014, 08:15 AM
Haha, okay. Make an excuse to not chi-sau and just fight, because chi-sau is a more realistic test of skill?
I'd think those who don't spar and just chi-sau are the ones hiding from something. How is doing something far closer to realistic free fighting a way to hide limited ability? What is your ultimate training goal? Not to fight? If chi-sau is the highest test of skill in your Wing Chun, then that shows what your ultimate training goal is. You won't even be facing people outside of the style. You're lying to yourself.
We all train Ip Man Wing Chun right? All Ip Man students chi sau with each other right? So why have you come up with your no chi sau rules if it's not to hide your limited understanding of the system?
Just because you spar does not mean you should not chi sau. Chi sau and sparring are complementary training aids. Stop using sparing as a way to get out of chi sau, unless what your doing is NOT Wing Chun.
Um, no it didn't.
Um, yes it did. Read it again:
1. Kevin and Obasi exchanged words...whatever they may be...on the internet. They agreed to meet.
2. Obasi had a cameraman in attendance filming the whole thing.
3. It became obvious within about 5 seconds that Obasi had something in mind other than a friendly roll in Chi Sao.
4. Kevin did not perform well at all other than possibly maintaining some decent structure, and was actually hit (even though lightly) on several occasions.
5. Kevin has, for several years now, extolled the virtues of PBVT and how much superior it is to other Wing Chun, often in a somewhat rude and insulting manner to other lineages.
6. Those of us here that are very familiar with #5 certainly expected to see more from Kevin considering #1, 2, & 3 above.
This is really getting kind of old now LFJ. You are the only one that continues to defend Kevin's performance.
jimhalliwell
02-12-2014, 09:02 AM
Um, yes it did. Read it again:
1. Kevin and Obasi exchanged words...whatever they may be...on the internet. They agreed to meet.
2. Obasi had a cameraman in attendance filming the whole thing.
3. It became obvious within about 5 seconds that Obasi had something in mind other than a friendly roll in Chi Sao.
4. Kevin did not perform well at all other than possibly maintaining some decent structure, and was actually hit (even though lightly) on several occasions.
5. Kevin has, for several years now, extolled the virtues of PBVT and how much superior it is to other Wing Chun, often in a somewhat rude and insulting manner to other lineages.
6. Those of us here that are very familiar with #5 certainly expected to see more from Kevin considering #1, 2, & 3 above.
This is really getting kind of old now LFJ. You are the only one that continues to defend Kevin's performance.
Umm I think we cant really judge either guys Ving Tsun/wing Chun on this short video to be honest!
I for one don't know if there are any others videos of kevin on the net but I'll reserve judgement until I see more!
Jim.
We all train Ip Man Wing Chun right?
We'd all like to think so, but honestly in all likelihood none of us do.
All Ip Man students chi sau with each other right? So why have you come up with your no chi sau rules if it's not to hide your limited understanding of the system?
It's clear different students can have vastly different understandings of the system and everything in it, to the point where they may as well be different systems, and that's the way I view the different lineages.
Just because you spar does not mean you should not chi sau. Chi sau and sparring are complementary training aids.
I do both, but one solely as a developmental drill and the other as a more live test of skill. If I'm testing and comparing skill with a fighter of another system, why do a developmental drill that's so artificial as opposed to doing the closest thing we can to free fighting, especially when we aren't on the same page with what we're actually doing?
Doing chi-sau with other lineages/systems will make it competitive like some sort of game and that then is just an artificial fight so far removed from reality that it really serves no purpose, at least not when compared to actually sparring.
You may think differently, but that just shows we don't train the same system.
1. Kevin and Obasi exchanged words...whatever they may be...on the internet. They agreed to meet.
2. Obasi had a cameraman in attendance filming the whole thing.
3. It became obvious within about 5 seconds that Obasi had something in mind other than a friendly roll in Chi Sao.
4. Kevin did not perform well at all other than possibly maintaining some decent structure, and was actually hit (even though lightly) on several occasions.
5. Kevin has, for several years now, extolled the virtues of PBVT and how much superior it is to other Wing Chun, often in a somewhat rude and insulting manner to other lineages.
6. Those of us here that are very familiar with #5 certainly expected to see more from Kevin considering #1, 2, & 3 above.
How about a list on Obasi? That should be entertaining.
You are the only one that continues to defend Kevin's performance.
Depends on what you mean by "defend".
slick69
02-12-2014, 09:25 AM
It's clear different students can have vastly different understandings of the system and everything in it, to
Doing chi-sau with other lineages/systems will make it competitive like some sort of game and that then is just an artificial fight so far removed from reality that it really serves no purpose, at least not when compared to actually sparring.
You may think differently, but that just shows we don't train the same system.
If only way to test and learn from each other is sparring then we are no different to MMA (even jui-jitsu gets on the mat and role).
If your not willing to chi-sau fine, but then don't call what your doing Wing Chun and please test yourself in the MMA scene, because us Wing Chun guys are learning a system where testing one's skill evolves around chi sau.
Umm I think we cant really judge either guys Ving Tsun/wing Chun on this short video to be honest!
I for one don't know if there are any others videos of kevin on the net but I'll reserve judgement until I see more!
Jim.
So, are you saying that like LFJ, you thought that was a good performance from Kevin? :confused: That getting pushed all around and tagged on multiple occasions without returning anything himself or shutting down Obasi's attempts is not necessarily a bad thing? That maybe he CHOSE to get man-handled by Obasi? We are not and have not been judging anyone's Wing Chun as a whole here. We have been talking about what we see on that particular video clip, and what that might imply. Nothing personal, I'm only pushing the point because your comment could very easily give LFJ more reason to continue to defend what we are seeing in that clip.
If only way to test and learn from each other is sparring then we are no different to MMA (even jui-jitsu gets on the mat and role).
If your not willing to chi-sau fine, but then don't call what your doing Wing Chun and please test yourself in the MMA scene, because us Wing Chun guys are learning a system where testing one's skill evolves around chi sau.
Okay, man. Keep rolling. ;)
So, are you saying that like LFJ, you thought that was a good performance from Kevin? :confused:
Where did I say it was a good performance? Keep makin' sh!t up and I'ma slap you. :(
slick69
02-12-2014, 09:43 AM
Okay, man. Keep rolling. ;)
I will. Good luck forum sparing and your new system...
I will. Good luck forum sparing and your new system...
Thanks. Good luck fantasy fighting! :)
BPWT..
02-12-2014, 10:44 AM
Umm I think we cant really judge either guys Ving Tsun/wing Chun on this short video to be honest!
I for one don't know if there are any others videos of kevin on the net but I'll reserve judgement until I see more!
Jim.
Kevin posted this clip of him and PB.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UuRwgQ5f6og&feature=youtu.be
Where did I say it was a good performance? Keep makin' sh!t up and I'ma slap you. :(
Here are your words, from just the first 8 pages of this thread:
It looked as if Kevin was trying to comply and get into some sort of rolling platform with Obassi, but Obassi wasn't really making that happen. That's why Kevin stopped and said it's not our chi-sau.
It's clear to anyone who knows anything that Kevin was obviously not trying to fight while Obassi was
Obasi was way off balance and exposed while Kevin was pretty controlled nonetheless
Kevin was pretty calm throughout and just trying to get into some sort of rolling platform with him as far as I could tell, but Obasi kept making it some sort of struggle, which is why it made it look like Kevin was chasing hands when he tried to set up properly. He was looking to get into chi-sau, not just fight. Obasi just wasn't cooperating. Eventually Kevin paused and said this isn't our chi-sau.
Kevin looked like he was just trying to roll and Obasi didn't know how. But despite that and the obvious imposing size and power Obasi was shoving uncontrollably at him, nothing really got through on Kevin and he wasn't completely manhandled or even put into a terribly vulnerable position. His footwork could have been better and he could have started striking and taking a more advantageous position rather than looking to connect and roll- that is, actually go into gwo-sau- but overall the floor was not wiped with him, by far. We didn't really get to see much from Kevin here as far as method, so there's not much to criticize.
While not exactly paying compliments to Kevin, it certainly at least comes across as an endorsement to me. So you can go slap yourself! ;)
While not exactly paying compliments to Kevin, it certainly at least comes across as an endorsement to me. So you can go slap yourself! ;)
That's because as I said earlier, you're an idiot and don't know how to understand what you read. Pointing out that the floor was not wiped with him and that we didn't see his method is not somehow an endorsement of what he did in the clip. :(
What I said earlier;
"Actually, I haven't directly "defended" his poor performance based on what he did. I agree it is not what you'd expect or hope to see if this were a real challenge. I think there were many things he could have done better nonetheless, and I mentioned those things early in the thread. I don't think there is a defense for either of them. I'm simply encouraging people to not make their happy assumptions based on no more information than hearsay of some sort of "argument" and 39 seconds of video."
8090
That's because as I said earlier, you're an idiot and don't know how to understand what you read. Pointing out that the floor was not wiped with him and that we didn't see his method is not somehow an endorsement of what he did in the clip. :(
What I said earlier;
"Actually, I haven't directly "defended" his poor performance based on what he did. I agree it is not what you'd expect or hope to see if this were a real challenge. I think there were many things he could have done better nonetheless, and I mentioned those things early in the thread. I don't think there is a defense for either of them. I'm simply encouraging people to not make their happy assumptions based on no more information than hearsay of some sort of "argument" and 39 seconds of video."
8090
THEN WHY DO YOU FEEL THE NEED TO KEEP DEFENDING IT? You're the idiot. I'm done here.
JPinAZ
02-12-2014, 02:32 PM
Simple solution. Actually spar. Spar with many people from many styles. The ultimate goal of training the entire system is to develop fighting skill. So why should free sparring not be the go-to test of skill between fighters? Being stuck on such an artificial level at chi-sau is just lying to oneself. For me, chi-sau is only an exchange of force to develop structure, speed, power, and reflexes. If I'm going to test my skill against another fighter I won't do a developmental drill with them, especially if they train a completely different system. I will do the closest thing we can do to fighting, which is sparring.
Exactly!
And this IMO is a problem with some that may view 'chi sau' drills as a valid way to test wing chun skills, and what is wrong with the direction a lot of wing chun is heading today. Substituting sparring/fighting with a develpmental drill (which in IMO is sometimes over ephasized in WC training) and still feeling you have testing wing chun fighting skill makes no sense to me.
General Example:
This is just an excuse not to chi-sau. Chi-sau is the way to test ones ability in Wing Chun pure and simple. In my experience whenever people refuse to chi-sau it's to hide there limited ability in Wing Chun, then when they spar they look like headless chickens...
IMO, this is a backwards and seems like an excuse not to spar.
The only way to test one's fighting ability is to spar/fight, wing chun or otherwise.
And it's prefectly fine if someone is a hobbist/WC enthusiast and isn't interested in sparring and just likes to train and maybe roll in chi sau - there's many people out there like that. But it seems the lines are getting blurred a bit in the process. Chi sau rolling/drilling platform is typically a 'safe' and confined drill/ruleset, but it's not a sustitue for sparring. The danger is it can make people feel comfortable and left with the 'safe illusion' that they have developed and tested sound fighting skills, while in reality nobody actually fights like that - not even wing chun people if you watch them actually fight against other arts.
And, the 'headless chickens' comment only proves the point - it's most likely because the DON'T spar and only focus on chi sau that they look this way when they actually try and spar.
We all train Ip Man Wing Chun right?
While not directed at me - no, not all of us. My wing chun has nothing to do with Ip Man lineage, Wong Wa Bo or anyone else from the red boats, so maybe that is why my views are a bit different. But I've heard many other IP WCers that also feel as I do so probably not..
All Ip Man students chi sau with each other right? So why have you come up with your no chi sau rules if it's not to hide your limited understanding of the system?
Just because you spar does not mean you should not chi sau. Chi sau and sparring are complementary training aids. Stop using sparing as a way to get out of chi sau, unless what your doing is NOT Wing Chun.
Again, not directed at me... buutt... I agree with the bolded part, as it is all important to various degrees, depending on your approach and desired results. But I never did understand this high stardard & emphasis that gets placed on a developmental drill for such a small-occurance timeframe that might not even happen in an actual fight (and by this, I am referring to the squared-up tan/bong/fook 2-hand rolling platform).
If only way to test and learn from each other is sparring then we are no different to MMA (even jui-jitsu gets on the mat and role).
If your not willing to chi-sau fine, but then don't call what your doing Wing Chun and please test yourself in the MMA scene, because us Wing Chun guys are learning a system where testing one's skill evolves around chi sau.
Please don't speak for all wing chun, because you surely don't accurately represent my views or methods for developing wing chun skills.
As far as I saw, no one here said the only way to learn is thru sparring. But it is pretty accurate that the only way to really test your fight skills is thru fighting/sparring - 'specially against non-WCers. How many guys do you really think you're going to meet on the street that you are going to have a chi sau battle with?
I personally don't spend very much of my training time in squared up, 2-arm linked taan/bong/fook chi sau rolling platform. Now don't get me wrong, there are things to learn/develope there, as well as in single arm tann/bong/fook drilling. And if approached correctly, the skills developed do directly translate into certain fighting skills (at least in the lineage I train). But, it is not a replacement for san da/sparring. And, 'doing chi sau' as a 'test of skill; only tests one's ability to do a very distict drill of chi sau.
And it's a joke (my opinion) to think you can have any sort of 'challenge match' of fight skills doing this drill, which is why I find this clip and it's original title so funny to watch and oxymoronic :)
slick69
02-12-2014, 05:03 PM
Exactly!
And this IMO is a problem with some that may view 'chi sau' drills as a valid way to test wing chun skills, and what is wrong with the direction a lot of wing chun is heading today. Substituting sparring/fighting with a develpmental drill (which in IMO is sometimes over ephasized in WC training) and still feeling you have testing wing chun fighting skill makes no sense to me.
General Example:
IMO, this is a backwards and seems like an excuse not to spar.
The only way to test one's fighting ability is to spar/fight, wing chun or otherwise.
And it's prefectly fine if someone is a hobbist/WC enthusiast and isn't interested in sparring and just likes to train and maybe roll in chi sau - there's many people out there like that. But it seems the lines are getting blurred a bit in the process. Chi sau rolling/drilling platform is typically a 'safe' and confined drill/ruleset, but it's not a sustitue for sparring. The danger is it can make people feel comfortable and left with the 'safe illusion' that they have developed and tested sound fighting skills, while in reality nobody actually fights like that - not even wing chun people if you watch them actually fight against other arts.
And, the 'headless chickens' comment only proves the point - it's most likely because the DON'T spar and only focus on chi sau that they look this way when they actually try and spar.
While not directed at me - no, not all of us. My wing chun has nothing to do with Ip Man lineage, Wong Wa Bo or anyone else from the red boats, so maybe that is why my views are a bit different. But I've heard many other IP WCers that also feel as I do so probably not..
Again, not directed at me... buutt... I agree with the bolded part, as it is all important to various degrees, depending on your approach and desired results. But I never did understand this high stardard & emphasis that gets placed on a developmental drill for such a small-occurance timeframe that might not even happen in an actual fight (and by this, I am referring to the squared-up tan/bong/fook 2-hand rolling platform).
Please don't speak for all wing chun, because you surely don't accurately represent my views or methods for developing wing chun skills.
As far as I saw, no one here said the only way to learn is thru sparring. But it is pretty accurate that the only way to really test your fight skills is thru fighting/sparring - 'specially against non-WCers. How many guys do you really think you're going to meet on the street that you are going to have a chi sau battle with?
I personally don't spend very much of my training time in squared up, 2-arm linked taan/bong/fook chi sau rolling platform. Now don't get me wrong, there are things to learn/develope there, as well as in single arm tann/bong/fook drilling. And if approached correctly, the skills developed do directly translate into certain fighting skills (at least in the lineage I train). But, it is not a replacement for san da/sparring. And, 'doing chi sau' as a 'test of skill; only tests one's ability to do a very distict drill of chi sau.
And it's a joke (my opinion) to think you can have any sort of 'challenge match' of fight skills doing this drill, which is why I find this clip and it's original title so funny to watch and oxymoronic :)
My point is if your want to spar get in a ring, no one is stopping you. Also there are plenty of combat tournament to test your fighting ability. You may find the clip funny, however Obasi is actual MMA fighter who has tested his skill in fights at amateur and professional level. However he has been clearly going round meeting other Wing Chun master via using chi sau with them. How would he test Samuel Kwok (who is 65), by sparing?
JPinAZ
02-12-2014, 05:17 PM
My point is if your want to spar get in a ring, no one is stopping you. Also there are plenty of combat tournament to test your fighting ability.
Sure, maybe that was one of your points, but you made many than that here, several of which I quoted in my reply. One interesting one is that chi sau is the real only way to test wing chun fighting abilities. :rolleyes:
My point was, chi sau isn't a test of wing chun skills, just your skills at a sometimes overly focused drill (and some call a game). While you might not like it, if you want to test fight skills, wing chun or otherwise, you have to spar/fight. Period.
You may find the clip funny, however Obasi is actual MMA fighter who has tested his skill in fights at amateur and professional level. However he has been clearly going round meeting other Wing Chun master via using chi sau with them. How would he test Samuel Kwok (who is 65), by sparing?
I don't even know why he would want to test a, as you put it, 65 year old man? But if he wanted to, I'd say offer up a challenge.
But doing chi sau drill with someone and then wearing it as some badge of fighting prowess is more than a bit silly to me. I hope you aren't implying this is how shawn views his doing chi sau with 65 year old Kwok? :eek:
YouKnowWho
02-12-2014, 05:32 PM
Can we assume that "WC sticky hands" is the beginner level training, and "sparring" is the intermediate level training? When you have passed your beginner level training and start to move into your intermediate level training, should you always look back, or should you look forward?
slick69
02-12-2014, 05:40 PM
Can we assume that "WC sticky hands" is the beginner level training, and "sparring" is the intermediate level training? When you have passed your beginner level training and start to move into your intermediate level training, should you always look back, or should you look forward?
They are different and shouldn't not be compared. Somebody can have no knowledge of Wing Chun but destroy you in sparing, what does that prove? We are talking about who has the most skill at a Wing Chun technique level. This is why Kevin & Obasi met!
YouKnowWho
02-12-2014, 05:54 PM
They are different and shouldn't not be compared. Somebody can have no knowledge of Wing Chun but destroy you in sparing, what does that prove? We are talking about who has the most skill at a Wing Chun technique level. This is why Kevin & Obasi met!
Sorry that I don't follow your logic here. It seems to me that you have just stated "to have the most skill at a Wing Chun technique level is more important than to be able to spar and win". :confused:
slick69
02-12-2014, 06:57 PM
Sorry that I don't follow your logic here. It seems to me that you have just stated "to have the most skill at a Wing Chun technique level is more important than to be able to spar and win". :confused:
They are different. Sparing include things such as speed and strength, thats why you have weight divisions in fights, did you know that?
As for your other point, I would chi-sau with Samuel Kwok to feel his energy and learn. You can see Obasi does that in the youtube clip with Kwok.
You may find the clip funny, however Obasi is actual MMA fighter who has tested his skill in fights at amateur and professional level.
...who even chi-saus like a chicken with its head cut off and has a pro record of 0-1-0, that loss coming by way of a good ol' ground 'n pound.
Sorry that I don't follow your logic here. It seems to me that you have just stated "to have the most skill at a Wing Chun technique level is more important than to be able to spar and win". :confused:
That's exactly what he's saying. He cares more about being good in chi-sau than being able to fight.
They are different. Sparing include things such as speed and strength, thats why you have weight divisions in fights, did you know that?
There are no rules in real life. Did you know that?
Can we assume that "WC sticky hands" is the beginner level training, and "sparring" is the intermediate level training? When you have passed your beginner level training and start to move into your intermediate level training, should you always look back, or should you look forward?
I would say forms training (SNT) is beginner level, before any chi-sau. Each phase in training fits together in sequence with the goal of being able to spar/fight and win/survive. If you run into trouble in fighting/sparring, you can refer back to chi-sau to fix it. If you run into trouble there, you refer back to your forms to iron it out.
Everything up to free sparring/fighting refers all the way back to the first form SNT. If you stop at chi-sau and don't spar/fight to test your skill, you're not really training the system for what it is, a fighting method, but just playing the chi-sau game as a hobby. That's fine, I guess. But it's silly to tell people who spar to test their skill that they aren't doing Wing Chun anymore.
slick69
02-13-2014, 04:21 AM
...who even chi-saus like a chicken with its head cut off and has a pro record of 0-1-0, that loss coming by way of a good ol' ground 'n pound.
What is your record?
slick69
02-13-2014, 04:25 AM
Everything up to free sparring/fighting refers all the way back to the first form SNT. If you stop at chi-sau and don't spar/fight to test your skill, you're not really training the system for what it is, a fighting method, but just playing the chi-sau game as a hobby. That's fine, I guess. But it's silly to tell people who spar to test their skill that they aren't doing Wing Chun anymore.
Wing Chun in context of a fight and sparing is very different. You're being silly, from what I saw in the vid Kev looks to be in his 50s and 100lbs lighter that Obasi, to expect him to spar with Obasi is not retarded. With the chi-sau clip we all got to see their Wing Chun level.
slick69
02-13-2014, 04:26 AM
There are no rules in real life. Did you know that?
Wow, very deep...
tc101
02-13-2014, 05:16 AM
They are different and shouldn't not be compared. Somebody can have no knowledge of Wing Chun but destroy you in sparing, what does that prove? We are talking about who has the most skill at a Wing Chun technique level. This is why Kevin & Obasi met!
Chi sau is a wing chun exercise that can be done cooperatively or competitively. It is also an exercise that allows us to use our wing chun tools to develop and sharpen our wing chun tools. Our performance in chi so reflects our ability to use the wing chun tools against a live partner/opponent at less than fighting intensity. If you can't use the wing chun tools in chi sau then you certainly will not be able to use them in sparring or fighting.
stonecrusher69
02-13-2014, 08:29 AM
Chi sau is a wing chun exercise that can be done cooperatively or competitively. It is also an exercise that allows us to use our wing chun tools to develop and sharpen our wing chun tools. Our performance in chi so reflects our ability to use the wing chun tools against a live partner/opponent at less than fighting intensity. If you can't use the wing chun tools in chi sau then you certainly will not be able to use them in sparring or fighting.
I have to disagree, IMO If your chi sao skills are poor it just means your chi sao skills are poor. If you train to fight you will be able to fight,although with chi sao train one can graudually get there.
tc101
02-13-2014, 11:26 AM
I have to disagree, IMO If your chi sao skills are poor it just means your chi sao skills are poor. If you train to fight you will be able to fight,although with chi sao train one can graudually get there.
Are we talking wing chun skills here? Please explain to me how a person with well-developed wing chun skills would not be able to use them in chi sau?
stonecrusher69
02-13-2014, 09:17 PM
Are we talking wing chun skills here? Please explain to me how a person with well-developed wing chun skills would not be able to use them in chi sau?
Depends how you define "Well-developed wing chun skills" If you mean fighting skills then that is easy. Fighting and chi sao develope different skills. I might be able to fight well but if I never trained in Chi sao agaianst someone who is very good at it will wipe the floor with me.However,in a real fight, unless he has my skill set he will lose..
tc101
02-16-2014, 05:36 AM
Depends how you define "Well-developed wing chun skills" If you mean fighting skills then that is easy. Fighting and chi sao develope different skills. I might be able to fight well but if I never trained in Chi sao agaianst someone who is very good at it will wipe the floor with me.However,in a real fight, unless he has my skill set he will lose..
Ok here is how I see it, chi sau to wing chun is sort and I emphasize sort of like what hitting the mitts is to boxers. Those drills or exercises let you focus on, practice, and sharpen certain skills that you will use in fighting. Does being good at chi sau or the mitts mean you have developed your fighting? No since that only comes through sparring. But those drills are a stepping stone to developing your sparring. I have never met or heard of a good boxer/fighter that was not adept at the mitts. Could someone say you can be a good boxer and not be good at the mitts? I do not see how since that is an integral part of a boxers training. Same with chi sau for a wing chun person.
GlennR
02-16-2014, 01:50 PM
Ok here is how I see it, chi sau to wing chun is sort and I emphasize sort of like what hitting the mitts is to boxers. Those drills or exercises let you focus on, practice, and sharpen certain skills that you will use in fighting. Does being good at chi sau or the mitts mean you have developed your fighting? No since that only comes through sparring. But those drills are a stepping stone to developing your sparring. I have never met or heard of a good boxer/fighter that was not adept at the mitts. Could someone say you can be a good boxer and not be good at the mitts? I do not see how since that is an integral part of a boxers training. Same with chi sau for a wing chun person.
Not all boxers have used focus mitts to train.
Ali, and I'm pretty sure sugar ray robinson, jus didn't use them.
stonecrusher69
02-16-2014, 01:56 PM
Ok here is how I see it, chi sau to wing chun is sort and I emphasize sort of like what hitting the mitts is to boxers. Those drills or exercises let you focus on, practice, and sharpen certain skills that you will use in fighting. Does being good at chi sau or the mitts mean you have developed your fighting? No since that only comes through sparring. But those drills are a stepping stone to developing your sparring. I have never met or heard of a good boxer/fighter that was not adept at the mitts. Could someone say you can be a good boxer and not be good at the mitts? I do not see how since that is an integral part of a boxers training. Same with chi sau for a wing chun person.
I agree with most of what you are saying," drills are stepping stones" like pad work,but what i'm saying is that it's still possible to be a good wing chun fighter without training in any chi sao, and even if your a good fighter it does not mean your chi sao will also be good as both develop different skills.Some wing chun lineages do very little chi sao yet can still fight as good or better then lineages that put a much greater emphasis on chi sao. I have done some friendly sparring with wing chun sifu's who do almost no chi sao yet can fight well,so from first hand experience I know this to be true. However, i don't want to give the impression that chi sao is useless,to the contrary,it is not. Chi sao gives an added benefit to one's arsenal and IMO needed to truly master wing chun.
Frost
02-17-2014, 06:02 AM
Not all boxers have used focus mitts to train.
Ali, and I'm pretty sure sugar ray robinson, jus didn't use them.
true and theres another point as well
pad work mimics an actual fight for a boxer, you use the same footwork, guard, slipping bobbing and weaving you would use in a fight, you work on the distancing and timing you would employ in said fight, the role of the pad feeder is very important and when done properly the pads should be held tight and the pad man should throw out shots as if you were sparing, he should make you react as if you were in an actual boxing match. Good pad work works a lot the elements found in sparring and actually fighting, but it is not used to replace sparring at all, simply to aid it.
I have never seen anyone claim Chi sao mimics an actual fight, or works on timing distance reaction in the same way, chi sao is probably more akin to the use of the speed ball in boxing and the skipping rope in that people cant agree how useful it is, what its actual carry over is to a fight, what its actually for and lots of fighters do fine without ever touching them :)
And you will notice I said GOOD pad work works the above, bad pad work (and there is lots of this about: pad man not moving, pad man slapping into your punches and ruining your distancing, pads held too far apart and too low etc, too long and unrealistic combinations called etc) can harm not help a fighter…any drill done by people who you don’t understand the purpose of said drill fully can do this………
Wayfaring
02-17-2014, 08:59 AM
Not all boxers have used focus mitts to train.
Ali, and I'm pretty sure sugar ray robinson, jus didn't use them.
Focus mitts are typically a tool used by a trainer like Freddie Roach to build specific skills. Other tools used are a midsection pad, medicine ball, and simply using another set of boxing gloves as focus mitts.
The point being in this one is that boxing has tools and drills they use that are proven to work. Heavy bags to build power, speed bags to build speed and timing, ropes across the ring for training bobbing and punches, jump ropes to build legs, and lots of other little tricks. Boxing is actually a great sport to look to what they do to build attributes.
Typically if boxing trainers don't do the focus mitts, they usually do a midsection pad and boxing gloves as focus mitts.
Ali. R
02-17-2014, 10:09 AM
It’s one very important part that the mitts do actually develop, and that’s defense; and a lot of so-called good trainers can’t teach it (that well), and that’s because they never developed it themselves. Therefore their fighters never had it (good) unless he/she was just talented.
It’s a funny thing that defense is rarely talked about or even discussed, and that’s because it’s the most real and genuine element within a fighting system and in most cases the hardest thing to do or develop.
This is why you have so many sloppy fighters, because they don’t know what to do to keep from being hit, and can’t find or have any clue after getting hit.
Take care,
Wayfaring
02-19-2014, 03:09 PM
So kevin is pretty much gone from this forum over this clip?
GlennR
02-19-2014, 07:08 PM
So kevin is pretty much gone from this forum over this clip?
Looks that way.
Maybe Bayer has barred him from here
Looks that way.
Maybe Bayer has barred him from here
I've told Kevin on several occasions in the past that his style of discourse was just giving PB a bad name. So maybe what you suggest is true!
Grumblegeezer
02-20-2014, 12:37 PM
I've told Kevin on several occasions in the past that his style of discourse was just giving PB a bad name. So maybe what you suggest is true!
Well that is exactly the way Kevin and Co. affected my outlook. Just based on youtube clips and what I'd heard, I came onto this forum with a pretty positive view on PB-WSLVT. Kevin's posts really soured that. They also seemed to make this forum a pretty contentious place. I find hanging out here a lot more enjoyable since he's gone "on vacation".
slick69
02-20-2014, 04:53 PM
Well that is exactly the way Kevin and Co. affected my outlook. Just based on youtube clips and what I'd heard, I came onto this forum with a pretty positive view on PB-WSLVT. Kevin's posts really soured that. They also seemed to make this forum a pretty contentious place. I find hanging out here a lot more enjoyable since he's gone "on vacation".
His crowd were so anti anything not Phil Bayer Wing Chun, i never saw why they were on the forum in the first place, other than to cause trouble
Wayfaring
02-21-2014, 05:03 PM
Well that is exactly the way Kevin and Co. affected my outlook. Just based on youtube clips and what I'd heard, I came onto this forum with a pretty positive view on PB-WSLVT. Kevin's posts really soured that. They also seemed to make this forum a pretty contentious place. I find hanging out here a lot more enjoyable since he's gone "on vacation".
Bah, I never looked down on PB just because some of his guys sounded like they wanted to start a boy band.
He's always impressed me as a down to earth hard working guy just doing his thing. His method works to dominate the chi sau thing in a certain context, and he probably can scrap a little. Are there limitations to what he does? Sure. But no issues from me over that.
tc101
02-22-2014, 04:32 AM
Bah, I never looked down on PB just because some of his guys sounded like they wanted to start a boy band.
He's always impressed me as a down to earth hard working guy just doing his thing. His method works to dominate the chi sau thing in a certain context, and he probably can scrap a little. Are there limitations to what he does? Sure. But no issues from me over that.
I think Bayer' shows good wing chun movement in what he does and it looks like he is good at teaching it to others.
Bah, I never looked down on PB just because some of his guys sounded like they wanted to start a boy band.
He's always impressed me as a down to earth hard working guy just doing his thing. His method works to dominate the chi sau thing in a certain context, and he probably can scrap a little. Are there limitations to what he does? Sure. But no issues from me over that.
No one is questioning the skill and approach that PB shows in his video clips. What has turned people off on him is the suggestion that the attitude of his students we see in this forum is a reflection of his own attitude picked up from him in his seminars. This may very well be a false impression. Also, some of his followers here have more or less "put words in his mouth" that have made him sound bad, whether he actually believes what they have stated or not. So yeah, I'm willing to cut PB some slack and would go see him given the opportunity. But that doesn't change the fact that his followers here have created a very "negative vibe" around him.
So yeah, I'm willing to cut PB some slack and would go see him given the opportunity. But that doesn't change the fact that his followers here have created a very "negative vibe" around him.
It is intriguing though, isn't it? That so many of his followers have similar stories- having come from other Wing Chun lineages and upon being introduced to this new method they had to do a complete overhaul of the systems they had previous learned, practically starting over from scratch. Understandably, they're unhappy about their lost time and wasted efforts.
I wouldn't call them negative or blame them for expressing themselves. It's just that those still in the lineages they've abandoned will take offense to it, but these folks haven't experienced different. Otherwise their taking offense, based on turnover rate, would turn into agreement. Outright lineage bashing without offering fruitful discussion is too far though, except in the case where the lineage head is in all actually fact a fraud. And there are some of those...
Hypothetically, if you did go to meet him and had the same experience...? You would likely want to be vocal about it. It's nature.
Hypothetically, if you did go to meet him and had the same experience...? You would likely want to be vocal about it. It's nature.
But I would like to think I would not come across as a straight up Axx-hole as many here have! And I would be careful not to put words in my new Sifu's mouth that would make him look bad. I would realize that as his representative, I would have to maintain some level of respect for others. Call it being "PC" if you like, or "Mo Duk", but even if I had a big "ah ha" moment I would not bash others the way we have seen here. But that's just me. ;)
There are several PBVT forum members here. I think most of them have added to the discussions and aren't that bad. Most of them don't drop the one-liners Kevin did. Speaking of him, I wonder what he's been up to. I wonder what's been on his mind after this exchange or if it has changed his outlook and approach in some way. Is that really all it took to make him shut up and shutdown completely?
I wonder what's been on his mind after this exchange or if it has changed his outlook and approach in some way. Is that really all it took to make him shut up and shutdown completely?
Nah. Not Kevin! That's why I think Glenn may be right!
Ali. R
02-22-2014, 04:15 PM
Call it being "PC" if you like, or "Mo Duk", but even if I had a big "ah ha" moment I would not bash others the way we have seen here. But that's just me. ;)
Hey Man, I’d really feel you on that one, just to tone it down a bit here’s one of my favorite people (http://youtu.be/gbnbMMCfyoc)to party with (in person being from a punk band myself), back in my twenties and when I had it like that. It looks better in full screen
Take Care,
Hey Man, I’d really feel you on that one, just to tone it down a bit here’s one of my favorite people (http://youtu.be/gbnbMMCfyoc)to party with (in person being from a punk band myself), back in my twenties and when I had it like that. It looks better in full screen
Take Care,
You partied with Blondie?! Diggin it man! Thanks! :D
kung fu fighter
03-01-2014, 01:13 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xOqfC7jYj88
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xOqfC7jYj88
Been there. Done that. Posted earlier in the thread. ;)
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