Obasse & Kevin Gledhill chi sau

[slick69]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UnehZy1sJSc

[Vajramusti]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UnehZy1sJSc
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Good luck to anyone who think that there is chi sau in there.

[JPinAZ]

It's easy to armchair, and I give them credit for putting it out there.
BBBUUUTTTTT

A Positive: To be fair, Kev does a good job of maintaining his composure, self centerline and not over extending in response to whatever it is Obasi thinks is wing chun.

A Negative: WTF is Obasi even doing? Leaning WAY fwd and just pushing - to the point both his feet come off the ground several times. :eek: No self centerline, no control & no wing chun IMO.

[slick69]

It's easy to armchair, and I give them credit for putting it out there.
BBBUUUTTTTT

A Positive: To be fair, Kev does a good job of maintaining his composure, self centerline and not over extending in response to whatever it is Obasi thinks is wing chun.

A Negative: WTF is Obasi even doing? Leaning WAY fwd and just pushing - to the point both his feet come off the ground several times. :eek: No self centerline, no control & no wing chun IMO.
Come on Kev is consistently being hit and not once landing a strike back on Obassi. Whatever you think of his structure, he is consistently about to get through and Kev can not do anything about it.

[kung fu fighter]

Come on Kev is consistently being hit and not once landing a strike back on Obassi. Whatever you think of his structure, he is consistently about to get through and Kev can not do anything about it.

Kevin seems to be in the mind frame of doing the chi sao drill, where as Shawn seems to in the mode of a fight. Not a good comparison of chi sao skills, it's comparing apples to oranges. To get a fair comparison Kevin should either fight or shawn should stay within the context of chi sao

[Grumblegeezer]

Kevin seems to be in the mind frame of doing the chi sao drill, where as Shawn seems to in the mode of a fight. Not a good comparison of chi sao skills, it's comparing apples to oranges. To get a fair comparison Kevin should either fight or shawn should stay within the context of chi sao

I agree completely. At least Kevin is doing WC and maintaining his structure. I'm not sure what Obasi was doing. Did you notice what Keven said as they broke apart at the end ...around 0:33? I couldn't hear very well, but it sounds like he said "This isn't our Chi Sau." Obasi responds "But what is it?". Yeah Shaun, what the heck were you doing? Anyway, it's good to see people posting clips. Props for that.

[Mutant]

thing is, if youre doing chi sao and someone starts breaking out of the boundaries of the drill and sparring or fighting you should be able to sense that just like you're supposed to sense everything going on in chi sao, (that's what its for after all) and just adapt with them and if they want to bang you have to match their violence and intent and may have to put them down hard. or they'll smash you. i think chi sao is a great drill in its context but you can see how hard it is to get people on the same page of "what it is", so should account for someone "not doing chi sao" by your own systems drills or definition and be able to adapt in real time and turn the volume up or down depending on the flow. if you insist on a drill when someone's punching you in the mouth then you need to step it up or step back and reassess what youre doing.

[Buddha_Fist]

My take....

Chi-Sao is used as a hand-coordination drill meant to reinforce habits that benefit your behavior and body mechanics when sparring. Forward pressure is maintained without compromising balance and mobility. Arms are put in contact to work on punching power in each roll through the Luk-Sao platform, but not for contact's sake. Hand actions' primary focus is to strike when the way is open, without being conditional to first grabbing/controlling the opponent's arms, thus increasing striking readiness. Elbow-hip connection and resulting power generation are by-products of the Chi-Sao platform. Facing (Chiu-Yin) is worked on through hip and foot position. Recognizing the artificial situation created by the Luk-Sao platform and the resulting pitfalls and limitations, care is taken to avoid actions that only exist in Chi-Sao ("Chi-Sao tricks") and do not transfer to a non-contact situation. Along this thinking, there are no "Chi-Sao Challenge Matches", it's just a drill performed in a certain way to attain specific skills. Productive Chi-Sao where you are still reaping the benefits of the drill is not fighting as it lacks other skills necessary when fighting. Finally, if you want to confirm whether Chi-Sao training is transferring into actual fighting skill, just spar!

I think that Kevin is on the same page with the above, this being the reason why he paused the work-out with Shawn. It was just a short clip, so who knows what else they trained on and talked about when they met.

[BPWT.]

As noted, it's like apples and oranges as they both seem to be wanting to get something different from the meeting.

Yes, Kevin looks more Wing Chun, I guess, and Obassi seems all over the place... but as also noted, Obassi gets through (despite being all over the place in terms of over extension and lost balance), and Kevin doesn't seem to shut it down.

I know he's gonna hate me saying this, but Kevin looks like pretty much any other Wing Chunner in the clip, nothing that makes me think of the PB clips that are posted - if I watched this clip not knowing who Kevin learns from, I don't think I'd know this is PBVT.

What happened to everything being a punch? :D Why no striking from Kevin? Especially as Obassi was often just doing whatever he wanted and not himself keeping centerline :)

Someone could also argue that Kevin was chasing hands in the clip... and I didn't see the footwork and angles that the PB guys train very heavily in their other clips.

However, they met and were recored and they put it up online. So thumbs up for being open.

[LFJ]

The oxymoronic title alone tells you where Obasi's mind was. What a joke. I can bet he didn't ask Kevin to do a "Chi Sao Challenge Match" with him.

And I love Izzo's comment below the video, that Kevin saying "this isn't chi-sau" is an excuse by someone who can't handle real pressure, and says "great job Shawn". LMAO! :D

Another fool says "he's just not used to the pressure and chaos". Well, of course. He was trying to do a developmental drill with a spazkid who was trying to fight in chi-sau. Kevin could have just starting punching and kicking, but no doubt everyone would then turnaround and tell him "this isn't chi-sau" because he wasn't trying to make arm contact.

At any rate, that's why I always refuse to do chi-sau with people of different lineages who have a completely different mindset and purpose of the drill, unless they are asking for instruction on our method. A "challenge match" shouldn't be done with a developmental drill, especially between people with completely different understandings of the drill. That's reduces it to a game or completely unrealistic struggle, which totally destroys all point in doing it at all, as we see in the video.

I always say no, let's spar. That's the only place where we can each do our own thing and compare them evenly.

[YouKnowWho]

At least Kevin is doing WC and maintaining his structure. I'm not sure what Obasi was doing.

What I don't understand is Obasi didn't try very hard to disconnect the bridge either. What was Obasi's intention?

To spar in

- full sticky hands format,
- 1/2 sticky hands format, or
- no sticky hand format?

A wide hook punch (or haymaker) can be used to disconnect the bridge. But Obasi didn't try it. This clip just remind me those clips that started with Taiji push hands and end with wrestling. It makes you wonder, if you try to

- wrestle then why do you have to start with push hands format?
- kickbox (there are knee striking involved) then why do you have to start with sticky hands format?

[BPWT.]

@ LFJ

I agree that it's hard sometimes for two lineages to be on the exact same page when they might have a different interpretation, goals, etc, within an exercise/partner work.

However, rolling in Poon Sau and then testing, freely, with strikes/attacks is Gor Sau and an environment that shouldn't be impossible to work in. Here's a clip of two PB students doing what they term Gor Sau, and while they are of course from the same group (PBVT) their training involves free flowing attacks that come as the opportunity presents itself. Both being from PB, their method works and looks like the PB method. Take away the title and you can clearly see they are PB students, basically.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TO-nKJ-wToY

But I am surprised by the clip with Kevin as while you can clearly see that Obassi is not from PB, Kevin doesn't look like he's from PB either. If I didn't recognize Kevin and someone said he was from, say, Ip Ching Wing Chun, I wouldn't automatically think they were wrong.

Kevin, when he's in a good mood :), posts some interesting stuff on the PBVT method. He often talks about "striking recycling", "adopting lines that naturally intercept", "not chasing hands", "hitting open gaps", etc. I get that it is easy (easyish) to do this when training with a partner from the same PBVT method, but obviously it is trained to work against people who are not a fellow VT training partner.

Obassi is not, and in this Gor Sau exchange, once the attacks come from Obassi (as strange as some of them might be), I don't see Kevin doing the things he usually talks about. :(

[LFJ]

Kevin, when he's in a good mood :), posts some interesting stuff on the PBVT method. He often talks about "striking recycling", "adopting lines that naturally intercept", "not chasing hands", "hitting open gaps", etc. I get that it is easy (easyish) to do this when training with a partner from the same PBVT method, but obviously it is trained to work against people who are not a fellow VT training partner.

Which is why they should have just agreed to do free sparring. It looked as if Kevin was trying to comply and get into some sort of rolling platform with Obassi, but Obassi wasn't really making that happen. That's why Kevin stopped and said it's not our chi-sau. Two completely different ideas can't combine in chi-sau. It just results in a confusing mess like this. That's why chi-sau should be trained with individuals from the same lineage, because it's only a developmental drill used to develop the skills specific to your method. If you want to pit the skills of two different lineages against each other, do it in free sparring!

[chaotic2k]

Well i think you lot read too much into two guys shooting the ****. Its just fun and games. I like both guys. Kevin good tight structutre and obasse using some nice "sink + spit". Would love to have a friendly exchange with them.

[Paddington]

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Good luck to anyone who think that there is chi sau in there.

Well apparently neither did Kevin think there was chi sau there. At the end he says "This, er, isn't chi sau" to which Shawn replied, "well what is it?". As Kevin begins to explain "well it's er...", Shawn interrupts and looks to the camera, with a slightly disappointed look, and waves his hand commanding the camera man to "stop". I assume that because Shawn just wants to try to embarrass people and make a name for himself, a little bit of information was superfluous to his video recording purposes. Is it me or are we seeing an agenda here between Izzo, Shawn, the 52blocks guys and a few others?

[BPWT.]

Well apparently neither did Kevin think there was chi sau there. At the end he says "This, er, isn't chi sau" to which Shawn replied, "well what is it?". As Kevin begins to explain "well it's er...", Shawn interrupts and looks to the camera, with a slightly disappointed look, and waves his hand commanding the camera man to "stop". I assume that because Shawn just wants to try to embarrass people and make a name for himself, a little bit of information was superfluous to his video recording purposes. Is it me or are we seeing an agenda here between Izzo, Shawn, the 52blocks guys and a few others?

The agenda is always the same - people promoting themselves/their method. To be fair, I think Kevin said: "This isn't our Chi Sau."

Maybe Obassi is doing the Wing Chun that Kevin used to do and so Obassi is thinking using the conceptual framework that Kevin tells us he's moved on from now that he has a real understanding of what VT is. :D :D :p

But seriously, the problem for me is not Obassi's agenda or that the Gor Sau was recorded, but what we see in it. I didn't expect to see any quality from Obassi, but I was a bit shocked to see this from Kevin. Obassi's attacks might have been all over the place, but he's a big guy and he put the pressure on... and Kevin was defending rather than... well, the things he talks about when describing PBVT on this forum.

I'm a little shocked as Kevin has spent many, many posts telling people here that their Wing Chun is based on misconceptions and faulty logic, and yet when a big chap in Gor Sau applies some pressure, I don't see from Kevin the superior method he's been pitching.

[chaotic2k]

The agenda is always the same - people promoting themselves/their method. To be fair, I think Kevin said: "This isn't our Chi Sau."

Maybe Obassi is doing the Wing Chun that Kevin used to do and so Obassi is thinking using the conceptual framework that Kevin tells us he's moved on from now that he has a real understanding of what VT is. :D :D :p

But seriously, the problem for me is not Obassi's agenda or that the Gor Sau was recorded, but what we see in it. I didn't expect to see any quality from Obassi, but I was a bit shocked to see this from Kevin. Obassi's attacks might have been all over the place, but he's a big guy and he put the pressure on... and Kevin was defending rather than... well, the things he talks about when describing PBVT on this forum.

I'm a little shocked as Kevin has spent many, many posts telling people here that their Wing Chun is based on misconceptions and faulty logic, and yet when a big chap in Gor Sau applies some pressure, I don't see from Kevin the superior method he's been pitching.

I think to be fair to Kevin he held his own against a stronger guy. I could clearly see PBVT and you can tell he has a sound understanding of his boxing forms and how they use shapes and strucrure.

Obasi is just freeing it up and not so regermented. Both guys are good my my humble opion.

[LFJ]

On Obassi's Facebook page he was at first promoting a "challenge fight", but later came back and said he changed his mind about fighting but still went to meet him.

What it looks like is Obassi asked him to chi-sau, which Kevin looked like he was trying to do (it's a cooperative drill), but Obassi's motive was to spazz out trying to fight him... or something, whatever he was doing.

A cheap tactic to make Kevin look bad and himself good?

Epic fail on both ends.

[Frost]

we finally get to see a video of Kevin in action...after all this time waiting....my god!!
and to top it all off its a thread he cant delete ;):D:):eek::cool:

[slick69]

we finally get to see a video of Kevin in action...after all this time waiting....my god!!
and to top it all off its a thread he cant delete ;):D:):eek::cool:
Yes, and his amazing PB Wing Chun can't handle someone stronger than him. After all the abuse he has given, he has gone silent. Sad day for PB Wing Chun.

[Frost]

On Obassi's Facebook page he was at first promoting a "challenge fight", but later came back and said he changed his mind about fighting but still went to meet him.

What it looks like is Obassi asked him to chi-sau, which Kevin looked like he was trying to do (it's a cooperative drill), but Obassi's motive was to spazz out trying to fight him... or something, whatever he was doing.

A cheap tactic to make Kevin look bad and himself good?

Epic fail on both ends.

epic fail, kevin could handle any forward pressure without moving backwards, didnt land any strikes and got lit up like a christmas tree, all in about 25 seconds, if it had been a challenge fight i know who my money would have been on lol

[LFJ]

epic fail, kevin could handle any forward pressure without moving backwards, didnt land any strikes and got lit up like a christmas tree, all in about 25 seconds, if it had been a challenge fight i know who my money would have been on lol

Where do you see that he got "lit up"? Obassi was just doing a whole bunch of nothing. If I were in the same situation, I too would have paused and asked Obassi quizzically if he actually wanted to do chi-sau or just fight- because he was doing neither. Kevin just looked confused as to what they were actually supposed to be doing.

[Frost]

Where do you see that he got "lit up"? Obassi was just doing a whole bunch of nothing. If I were in the same situation, I too would have paused and asked Obassi quizzically if he actually wanted to do chi-sau or just fight- because he was doing neither. Kevin just looked confused as to what they were actually supposed to be doing.

i agree kevin looked confused, probably because he couldn't actually do anything to Obassi, and he took 2 knees and about 4 or 5 palms to the face in less than 30 seconds.....and couldnt get anything offensive off himself, that is being lit up

[chaotic2k]

i agree kevin looked confused, probably because he couldn't actually do anything to Obassi, and he took 2 knees and about 4 or 5 palms to the face in less than 30 seconds.....and couldnt get anything offensive off himself, that is being lit up

Its just a mess about on both sides. Its so obvious to see. Kevin was holding off and shawn was doing stuff like jumping knees which all looked tip tap! Anyone who jusges this as a real contest needs a reality check. Hats off to Kevin for having shawn down to play and hats off to shawn for going out there and playing.

[LFJ]

i agree kevin looked confused, probably because he couldn't actually do anything to Obassi

What were they supposed to do? Do you think this was a fight?

That's the problem with two people with vastly different ideas about what chi-sau is doing it together. When one guy tries to fight from it, it results in both looking rather silly. Then critics who don't understand it want to evaluate it as if it were a fight.

It's clear to anyone who knows anything that Kevin was obviously not trying to fight while Obassi was, although not very well. If Kevin stopped trying to get into chi-sau format with him and just starting free striking, I think it would have looked much different.

Of course, Obassi's quick to cut the camera when Kevin begins to give his critique and explain what his chi-sau is. That's something that should have been on video as well. But Obassi got the footage he wanted, apparently. It's embarrassing if he's proud of himself.

The oxymoronic title "Chi Sao Challenge Match" shows how retarded he is and I doubt Kevin was under the same impression that that was what they were doing.

[JPinAZ]

I thought the same thing. It LOOKS like Kev was asked 'to chi sau', and then Shawn spazzed out and kev was just baffled. Could Kev have stepped it up too? Most likely. But if you're asked to 'chi sau', maybe Kev was trying to do just that and didn't want to escalate into a fight (which is exactly what it would have turned into). Then after the fact, Shawn labels it as a 'chi sau challenge match' which is the most stupid thing I've ever hear in my life.

Curious if Kev knew this was some 'challenge match' from the beginning. Hopefully Kevin comes in here to clear it up.

On another point, I'm not a big fan of 'chi sauing' with other people specifically for this reason - too many people view differently. Some, it's as just a drill and others chi sau skills are for fighting. Too much misinterpretation and different understandings.

[Ali. R]

It’s hard for me to offset someone’s clip, because they’re trying their best to top each other. Really it’s not their fought; the blame would lay on the ‘upbringing or Sifu’ of each practitioner.

Which in whom themselves would be considered “Dangerous but Inept”, creating a cultural sense of superiority among their seminar babies. Meaning; not keeping them humble or true to their abilities (the quick fix). And or speaking on how great they are, even above the level of their own teacher.

By trying to fill the room for each seminar event and while mostly speaking on “what’s wrong with other systems”, stuff like this begins to happen. And it creates a tempestuousness attitude abroad.


Take care,

[Buddha_Fist]

Regarding what is happening and what is not: Two guys with different concepts about what they are about to do decide to work out. Shawn had some sort of "challenge" in mind, while Kevin complies with his request for Chi-Sao. There is an obvious weight difference between the two, so Shawn has this in his favor. Shawn does his best to throw Kevin out of balance while losing balance himself. Kevin manages to retain his balance throughout most of Shawn's attempts. Shawn clings to/grabs Kevin's arms through a good part of the work-out, thus not allowing Kevin to do much; Shawn's strength helps in that regard. However, given Shawn makes his striking conditional to grabbing/clinging and is quite out of balance, most of his shots end up being slaps with no ground support and with less power than Shawn could have generated with it. So balanced stance, punching power, avoiding to chase hands, and punching readiness (all of which are skills that you work on when doing the Chi-Sao drill) are all gone. What's the point then? If you want to grab and wrestle, go and train good BJJ. If you want to test your skills in Wing Chun (at the end of the day a striking art) spar. Everything else, including thinking that the video is worth posting, is a waste of time.

[Paddington]

It’s hard for me to offset someone’s clip, because they’re trying their best to top each other. Really it’s not their fought; the blame would lay on the ‘upbringing or Sifu’ of each practitioner.

Which in whom themselves would be considered “Dangerous but Inept”, creating a cultural sense of superiority among their seminar babies. Meaning; not keeping them humble or true to their abilities (the quick fix). And or speaking on how great they are, even above the level of their own teacher.

By trying to fill the room for each seminar event and while mostly speaking on “what’s wrong with other systems”, stuff like this begins to happen. And it creates a tempestuousness attitude abroad.


Take care,

I think there are a lot of people, myself included, that could learn a lot from what you have just said. It would be useful to hear Kevin's POV but I am not sure it is going to be forthcoming. Looking at Obasi's other clips I still feel there is an agenda there and that this meeting with Kevin was a little bit of a set up, particularly given how it is being presented by Obasi on his youtube page. It fits with with what I have seen Obasi do elsewhere.

[LFJ]

Looking at Obasi's other clips I still feel there is an agenda there and that this meeting with Kevin was a little bit of a set up, particularly given how it is being presented by Obasi on his youtube page. It fits with with what I have seen Obasi do elsewhere.

Absolutely. Quite the ego for a man of such meager skills.

[Paddington]

Absolutely. Quite the ego for a man of such meager skills.

I think he is being egged on by the likes of Izzo too.

[slick69]

I think there are a lot of people, myself included, that could learn a lot from what you have just said. It would be useful to hear Kevin's POV but I am not sure it is going to be forthcoming. Looking at Obasi's other clips I still feel there is an agenda there and that this meeting with Kevin was a little bit of a set up, particularly given how it is being presented by Obasi on his youtube page. It fits with with what I have seen Obasi do elsewhere.

Agenda? What about the PBWT agenda of shooting down everything on this forum, then only postings clips where they chi-sau in an environment suitable to them. Or coming up with there classic street fight comments. Bottom line is Obasse got through consistently and Kev could not land one strike.

[LFJ]

Bottom line is Obasse got through consistently and Kev could not land one strike.

There's another line below that that says Kev didn't try to land a strike because this was only a fight in one man's mind.

[Paddington]

Agenda? What about the PBWT agenda of shooting down everything on this forum, then only postings clips where they chi-sau in an environment suitable to them. Or coming up with there classic street fight comments. Bottom line is Obasse got through consistently and Kev could not land one strike.

It is one thing to wax lyrical on the Interwebs and another to post videos titled 'chi sao challenge match' when it looks like the other person, kevin, was not aware it was a challenge match. I am making a guess here and only kevin and shawn can really answer. Either way, it seems that if Obasi went from the outset and stated to kevin it was to be a challenge match, then we would have seen more aggression from kevin and perhaps more of a fight rather than the purported training exercise that is chi sau.

The reason why I say agenda is becasue if you follow Obasi, Izzo, the guys from 52blocks online, you will see that they are in communication with one another and teaming up in comments sections and videos to insult other sifus and stir things up. I have no problem with people testing themselves and doing challenge matches just I think it should be done overtly and not via what seems like a set up. I am very much reminded of the recent Randy Williams affair of which Obasi was involved.

[slick69]

There's another line below that that says Kev didn't try to land a strike because this was only a fight in one man's mind.

So strike's not allowed in chi-sau? Please! Kev was out of his depth against someone stronger than him. Isn't Wing Chun about learning how to deal with that...

[LFJ]

So strike's not allowed in chi-sau?

Whatever was taking place wasn't chi-sau, nor was it fighting... so nothing much came from Kev except bewilderment until he finally paused to figure out wtf was going on.

[slick69]

It is one thing to wax lyrical on the Interwebs and another to post videos titled 'chi sao challenge match' when it looks like the other person, kevin, was not aware it was a challenge match. I am making a guess here and only kevin and shawn can really answer. Either way, it seems that if Obasi went from the outset and stated to kevin it was to be a challenge match, then we would have seen more aggression from kevin and perhaps more of a fight rather than the purported training exercise that is chi sau.

The reason why I say agenda is becasue if you follow Obasi, Izzo, the guys from 52blocks online, you will see that they are in communication with one another and teaming up in comments sections and videos to insult other sifus and stir things up. I have no problem with people testing themselves and doing challenge matches just I think it should be done overtly and not via what seems like a set up. I am very much reminded of the recent Randy Williams affair of which Obasi was involved.

If you look at the FB forums it's clear it was a chi-sau challenge which Kev accepted after critique of Obasse. So please stop inventing things.

[Paddington]

If you look at the FB forums it's clear it was a chi-sau challenge which Kev accepted after critique of Obasse. So please stop inventing things.

Well I did say it was a guess. I did not know this. Do you have a link?

[slick69]

Well I did say it was a guess. I did not know this. Do you have a link?

You have to be on FaceBook and be part of the Wing Chun Forum, or a friend of Obasse.

[LFJ]

If you look at the FB forums it's clear it was a chi-sau challenge which Kev accepted after critique of Obasse. So please stop inventing things.

Obasi first said there would be a "challenge match", then later said "I've changed my mind about fighting him but I still had to meet him"... and then we see what happened. So...who's inventing what?

[slick69]

Obasi first said there would be a "challenge match", then later said "I've changed my mind about fighting him but I still had to meet him"... and then we see what happened. So...who's inventing what?

So no fight, but chi-sau after Kev critique Obasse structure. Sounds fair and the PBWT wonderful structure could not deal with Obasse.

[YouKnowWho]

Where will you draw the line between sticky hands and free sparring?

[LFJ]

So no fight, but chi-sau after Kev critique Obasse structure. Sounds fair and the PBWT wonderful structure could not deal with Obasse.

Don't know what "PBWT" is or who "Obasse" is... but yeah, Obasi backed out of an actual fight and went the route of trying to fight through chi-sau so he had a better chance since he'd be the only one fighting in such a format.

As a result, he looked like an idiot, and a double idiot when he posted it as a "Chi Sao Challenge Match". Whether you call it chi-sau or fighting, which it was neither, he just looked like an angry spazkid trying to prove a point. The only point he proved is that he indeed has no structure and actually sucks hard.

[Ali. R]

I think there are a lot of people, myself included, that could learn a lot from what you have just said. It would be useful to hear Kevin's POV but I am not sure it is going to be forthcoming. Looking at Obasi's other clips I still feel there is an agenda there and that this meeting with Kevin was a little bit of a set up, particularly given how it is being presented by Obasi on his youtube page. It fits with with what I have seen Obasi do elsewhere.



But, Kevin knew who ‘Obasse’ was/is, and still put his toe in the water to see how warm it was. I’m sorry to say that it was only his ego that made him jump in (ego = without God + putting self in the way) which was more than likely all based on what he was told, rather than what was truly developed.

I feel that he would’ve been more of a man (not saying he isn’t) to just walk away from ‘Obasse’, after all, Kevin didn’t challenge anyone, so he had the upper hand by simply moving outside of that invitation. But he went tit for tat before he’d jump out of the water, which in the end brought more shame then respect.


Take care,

[Wayfaring]

Hilarious!!!! Really, this one is the one that should have the title "PBVT sparring clip".

There is so much disconnect in this video it's hilarious.

Kevin is trying to do this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZcWcy2NA1pk

Shawn is doing this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GC4E975uLFw

And the only thing I'm left with after watching this has nothing to do with thinking about either guy's skill, it's "how retarded am I, trying to encourage WCK people to spar with each other" ????????

[BPWT.]

Don't know what "PBWT" is or who "Obasse" is... but yeah, Obasi backed out of an actual fight and went the route of trying to fight through chi-sau so he had a better chance since he'd be the only one fighting in such a format.

As a result, he looked like an idiot, and a double idiot when he posted it as a "Chi Sao Challenge Match". Whether you call it chi-sau or fighting, which it was neither, he just looked like an angry spazkid trying to prove a point. The only point he proved is that he indeed has no structure and actually sucks hard.

We know it's not a fight, and yes, perhaps Obasi was being a fool. But if they chatted/argued online and then they met to Chi Sau I think that no one expects them to simply roll (Poon Sau). Kevin says that "Sean is the strongest guy I have ever chi sao'ed", so its clear they both met to Chi Sau and that means freeing things up with some Gor Sau.

The whole thing is kinda stupid, but nonetheless with Kevin's 20-odd year experience in the Ving Tsun system and his rather critical posts on this forum regarding Wing Chun outside of the PBVT system... well, watching that video I didn't see Kevin doing the things that he says make the PBVT method so good. It was a surprise.

But they both had the balls to meet and exchange in some way, and that takes bottle (especially with a camera rolling and it filmed with the knowledge that a youtube upload is just a few clicks away).

[LFJ]

If it was a known "challenge", I certainly wonder why Kevin would even agree to do chi-sau as a challenge. Isn't he always talking about how it's not fighting, nor a competition? Also, the end of the clip where Kevin says this isn't our chi-sau sounds as if it was supposed to be an exchange of ideas and Obasi wasn't getting it. It's obvious Obasi thought it was certainly a challenge match of some sort. But again, it's embarrassing if he's proud of himself.

[Wayfaring]

For contrast, in another world, here's how people spar:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gzwCLF6EtLQ

Now I'm sure there will be a large quantity of people that won't be able to see past the "style vs. style" aspect of this. I could care less about style. So humor me. If you could discount the labels on the people performing these actions, what could you learn?

[JPinAZ]

When you're right you're right: Ali R., you're spot on.. in this thread anyway :p

Wayfaring, too funny and you couldn't be more closer to the truth.

[BPWT.]

It's obvious Obasi thought it was certainly a challenge match of some sort. But again, it's embarrassing if he's proud of himself.

Agreed. But also I don't think Kevin would be too happy with his performance either. What would PB himself make of it, I wonder. :eek::D

[LFJ]

Agreed. But also I don't think Kevin would be too happy with his performance either. What would PB himself make of it, I wonder. :eek::D

Well, as has been stated, he could have just started free striking, as Obasi was way off balance and exposed while Kevin was pretty controlled nonetheless, but then it would have been an all out fight.

[Frost]

For contrast, in another world, here's how people spar:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gzwCLF6EtLQ

Now I'm sure there will be a large quantity of people that won't be able to see past the "style vs. style" aspect of this. I could care less about style. So humor me. If you could discount the labels on the people performing these actions, what could you learn?

if people were honest they would learn alot of what they train would not be of any use to them in such an enviroment, that they had no concept of real pressure and making their skills work under real pressuse, and that alot of what they have been taught is redundant now

[BPWT.]

Well, as has been stated, he could have just started free striking, as Obasi was way off balance and exposed while Kevin was pretty controlled nonetheless, but then it would have been an all out fight.

Gor Sau is a free exchange - so why would Kevin not be striking?

If we're honest, Obasi is a big guy who used his strength and weight and was often off balance but he still had the upper hand. Kevin was primarily trying to defend against the strikes (chasing hands?) without counter attacking. I don't know, to me what he was doing seemed to be a) what he critiques in others, and b) against what he says all those PBVT drills seem to be for.

[Paddington]

Agreed. But also I don't think Kevin would be too happy with his performance either. What would PB himself make of it, I wonder. :eek::D

Well, PB did touch hands with Obasi and I think there is a clip of it so Obasi does know what chi sau is like from PB directly.

[Paddington]

Gor Sau is a free exchange - so why would Kevin not be striking?

If we're honest, Obasi is a big guy who used his strength and weight and was often off balance but he still had the upper hand. Kevin was primarily trying to defend against the strikes (chasing hands?) without counter attacking. I don't know, to me what he was doing seemed to be a) what he critiques in others, and b) against what he says all those PBVT drills seem to be for.

I don't know, fear I guess; Kevin can answer. I have chi saued with guys the size of Obasi, perhaps bigger, and it was a frightening experience when it started to get very aggressive to the point of fighting. With fear you do end up chasing hands as you enter a prey rather than predator state of mind.

[Miguel]

A Negative: WTF is Obasi even doing? Leaning WAY fwd and just pushing - to the point both his feet come off the ground several times. :eek: No self centerline, no control & no wing chun IMO.

This.

The only fighting system I see Shawn displaying is the little-known martial art of "I'll beat you to death with my face and chin". I believe that one was invented by 12 year olds on playgrounds.

[Jansingsang]

What were they supposed to do? Do you think this was a fight?

That's the problem with two peoplagendase with vastly different ideas about what chi-sau is doing it together. When one guy tries to fight from it, it results in both looking rather silly. Then critics who don't understand it want to evaluate it as if it were a fight.

It's clear to anyone who knows anything that Kevin was obviously not trying to fight while Obassi was, although not very well. If Kevin stopped trying to get into chi-sau format with him and just starting free striking, I think it would have looked much different.

Of course, Obassi's quick to cut the camera when Kevin begins to give his critique and explain what his chi-sau is. That's something that should have been on video as well. But Obassi got the footage he wanted, apparently. It's embarrassing if he's proud of himself.

The oxymoronic title "Chi Sao Challenge Match" shows how retarded he is and I doubt Kevin was under the same impression that that was what they were doing.

You've hit the nail on the head kevin was obviously setup in this what you have is two guy's with totally different agendas kevin obliged Obassi request to Chi sao unknown to him self he was heading into chaos and madness with a guy with very limited knowledge of what Chi soas objectives are ? On the other hand kevin could have saved face even in this stage by stomping his ar$e at 0 : 16 When they disengaged arms at this stage i would have punched him in the face and put his off balanced ar$e on the ground with a leg sweep And say What was that:D This is a prime example when you let others into your game thinking that they play the same game

Many moons ago the same thing happened to me kevin actually knows this fella He wanted to Chi soa as to prove a some kinda point but made out he was genuine I obliged him caught him out with a palm strike never struck him hard just showed the opening from this the sucker came in with a over hand punch striking me in my eye I backed him up swung him into some lockers rapid punched him i was at work at the time Crazy Sh!T... He was trying to knee me it was a load of crap couldn't believe it was so poor :rolleyes: we got parted He saw me in a Chinese restaurant a few days later like being in a movie was so so real his friend told him that it was me but he didn't want to know I wonder why :D from that time on i never mixed it with no one i don't know.. My teacher told me you have to be friends when you doing Chi soa cause no one plays the same tune

I only broke that code 6 years ago when i went to a Gary lam seminar i had to putdown some stuff because people were in doubt that had stuff.. When they saw what i had there was like Ohh Careful CAREFUL I don't take no prisoners, but i don't go out to hurt no one either this is my 2 cents on this issue peace!

[Wayfaring]

I feel that he would’ve been more of a man (not saying he isn’t) to just walk away from ‘Obasse’, after all, Kevin didn’t challenge anyone, so he had the upper hand by simply moving outside of that invitation. But he went tit for tat before he’d jump out of the water, which in the end brought more shame then respect.


So you're saying there's too much drama in wing chun for people to spar with each other outside their own schools? maybe kinda saying that.

I mean I love the art but I sure do hate how people train it. It's so dumb.

Normal to me would be like me, you, Obassi, kev - "hey open mat at 9 guys" over text. warmups to get the blood flowing, maybe some light chi sau for timing/touch, a little heavier either pad work or back and forth gloves, if we're doing ground light rolling, then set a round timer at 3:00 with 1:00 rest with about 20 rounds on it and work, switch off every round - just hands or hands and lighter kicks. It will escalate on it's own, but scale it back when it does after a bit. speed no power. when people's tongues are dragging, hang out and BS about technique and concepts. if someone is feeling jumpy, or like they want to battle a little, do a couple 5 min rounds a little harder and follow the escalation path a little longer. as far as gauging what pace, that sparring clip I put up was labeled "MMA hard sparring". imo actually it was 1 5 min round, and they escalated about half way thru and towards the end but most of the round was lighter. after which, grab food and a pint depending on schedules, etc.

But it seems to me WCK people sparring are "not normal". I mean what, before we do the above paragraph I've got to not like you because:

a. you cross train in boxing
b. your lineage - how close to ip man, did you learn the "real" dummy and knives or was it not real
c. do you really chi sau the right way or is it the wrong way
d. how many private lessons did your sifu really take from Ip Man
e. have you ever insulted me on the internet

I mean I could go on but all that just sounds really, really, really, really, really stupid to me. And it's not some ancient samurai code of stupidity why we have to do that, or a higher enlightened path of Buddhism stupidity either. Or a more enlightened pure lineage path of stupidity. it's just plain stupidity.

I'm a little emotional right now. I'm getting older, and recently a guy I know a BJJ instructor in Denver committed suicide. Life's too d@mn short for all this stupidity people. Train with each other. Enjoy it while you can, because there's a day coming when you will never be able to again.

[Ali. R]

So you're saying there's too much drama in wing chun for people to spar with each other outside their own schools? maybe kinda saying that.

I mean I love the art but I sure do hate how people train it. It's so dumb.

Normal to me would be like me, you, Obassi, kev - "hey open mat at 9 guys" over text. warmups to get the blood flowing, maybe some light chi sau for timing/touch, a little heavier either pad work or back and forth gloves, if we're doing ground light rolling, then set a round timer at 3:00 with 1:00 rest with about 20 rounds on it and work, switch off every round - just hands or hands and lighter kicks. It will escalate on it's own, but scale it back when it does after a bit. speed no power. when people's tongues are dragging, hang out and BS about technique and concepts. if someone is feeling jumpy, or like they want to battle a little, do a couple 5 min rounds a little harder and follow the escalation path a little longer. as far as gauging what pace, that sparring clip I put up was labeled "MMA hard sparring". imo actually it was 1 5 min round, and they escalated about half way thru and towards the end but most of the round was lighter. after which, grab food and a pint depending on schedules, etc.

But it seems to me WCK people sparring are "not normal". I mean what, before we do the above paragraph I've got to not like you because:

a. you cross train in boxing
b. your lineage - how close to ip man, did you learn the "real" dummy and knives or was it not real
c. do you really chi sau the right way or is it the wrong way
d. how many private lessons did your sifu really take from Ip Man
e. have you ever insulted me on the internet

I mean I could go on but all that just sounds really, really, really, really, really stupid to me. And it's not some ancient samurai code of stupidity why we have to do that, or a higher enlightened path of Buddhism stupidity either. Or a more enlightened pure lineage path of stupidity. it's just plain stupidity.

I'm a little emotional right now. I'm getting older, and recently a guy I know a BJJ instructor in Denver committed suicide. Life's too d@mn short for all this stupidity people. Train with each other. Enjoy it while you can, because there's a day coming when you will never be able to again.


There is a time and place for everything and sometimes doing nothing is the best way to go. ‘Paul Newman’, while winning a poker game (by bluffing with a very bad hand) in ‘Cool Hand Luke’.

Inmate said; “He beat you with nothing, just like he did me when we fought in the courtyard, he had nothing".

Cool Hand Luke said; “Sometimes nothing could be a real cool hand”…….


Take care,

[KPM]

Wow! I haven't been here in awhile and when I come back this is the first thread I read! Here's my thoughts, if anyone cares. First, I can believe that Kevin was set up. But it seemed obvious to me and should have been obvious to Kevin within about 5 seconds that Obasi wasn't interested in a calm cooperative roll. Second, I have to agree that I didn't see any of the things that Kevin has so strongly and frequently asserted here in this forum about how superior PBVT is to everyone else's Wing Chun. I have to agree that if I didn't know who he was in this clip I would easily believe he was from the Moy Yat, Ip Chun, Ip Ching etc. lineage. I saw nothing of the superior angling and directness espoused by Kevin here in this forum. I believe that Kevin was likely unaware of what he was in for and was surprised by Obasi's response, but I would think he would have gotten over that surprise in about 5 seconds! I have to say I was more than a little disappointed. Now rather than clam up and never do another video again, I'd like to see Kevin put out more videos. Better videos to prove this one was a fluke.

[Subitai]

thing is, if youre doing chi sao and someone starts breaking out of the boundaries of the drill and sparring or fighting you should be able to sense that just like you're supposed to sense everything going on in chi sao, (that's what its for after all) and just adapt with them and if they want to bang you have to match their violence and intent and may have to put them down hard. or they'll smash you. i think chi sao is a great drill in its context but you can see how hard it is to get people on the same page of "what it is", so should account for someone "not doing chi sao" by your own systems drills or definition and be able to adapt in real time and turn the volume up or down depending on the flow. if you insist on a drill when someone's punching you in the mouth then you need to step it up or step back and reassess what youre doing.

+ 1 for what Mutant said

[chaotic2k]

Wow! I haven't been here in awhile and when I come back this is the first thread I read! Here's my thoughts, if anyone cares. First, I can believe that Kevin was set up. But it seemed obvious to me and should have been obvious to Kevin within about 5 seconds that Obasi wasn't interested in a calm cooperative roll. Second, I have to agree that I didn't see any of the things that Kevin has so strongly and frequently asserted here in this forum about how superior PBVT is to everyone else's Wing Chun. I have to agree that if I didn't know who he was in this clip I would easily believe he was from the Moy Yat, Ip Chun, Ip Ching etc. lineage. I saw nothing of the superior angling and directness espoused by Kevin here in this forum. I believe that Kevin was likely unaware of what he was in for and was surprised by Obasi's response, but I would think he would have gotten over that surprise in about 5 seconds! I have to say I was more than a little disappointed. Now rather than clam up and never do another video again, I'd like to see Kevin put out more videos. Better videos to prove this one was a fluke.

Disagree with some of your points. I can see PBWSLVT in Kevin. Obasi looks very strong and i feel other Wing Chun guys i.e Yip Chun etc... Would not keep there structure since they dont understand there boxing forms to the level of WSL method. You can so that Kevin trains his Jon To Ma since he is getting thrown about as a unit.

This is the WSL way. You fight as a unit. Problem is there is not enough spring in the structure and this is why WSL guys get thrown around by really strong guys. Its reallt a universal issue with the WC structure but especially the WSL since they are best at applying it correctly.

[Paddington]

Problem is there is not enough spring in the structure [...]

What do you think is the best way to train for 'spring in structure'?

[chaotic2k]

What do you think is the best way to train for 'spring in structure'?

You need to open your hips and not lock them. Instead of being a stick you need to be a spring. Knees should bend freely. Weight distribution always changing and not stuck on heels. Need to always find equalibrian. Your centre is always changing with pressure. Stop being a see saw and become pac man.

You should be able to squat all the way down to floor at any time showing you have abilty to absorb pressure.

I train a more wrestling type chi sau and alot of my moves are controls rarther than strikes. I come from WSL family but do my own thing now.

[chaotic2k]

What do you think is the best way to train for 'spring in structure'?

Open hips
spring not stick (stance wise)
Knees bend freely
weight changes (not always heels)
Changing equalibrian
Chi sau attacks balance over just striking
not being a See Saw but Pac Man when dealing wit pressure
Do alot of push and pull drills
change wc tools to function differently
more free sparring
good wrestling training
the list goes on :)

[BPWT.]

I can see PBWSLVT in Kevin. Obasi looks very strong and i feel other Wing Chun guys i.e Yip Chun etc... Would not keep there structure since they dont understand there boxing forms to the level of WSL method. You can so that Kevin trains his Jon To Ma since he is getting thrown about as a unit.

Yes, I'd agree that Kevin keeps structure to the point where he is moving as a unit. And because Obasi is a big guy who is strong and heavy, that can't be an easy thing to do.

But... :) ... Kevin talks about PBVT and (in addition to saying how other Wing Chunners are "confused", training with a "misinterpretation" and "misunderstanding of the system", etc) he says that PBVT is about:

"Displacing contact so we can hit" - Didn't see this in his Gor Sau with Obasi
"Lead and rear cycling" - Didn't see this in his Gor Sau with Obasi
"Not maintaining contact" - at times he was doing this with Obasi
"Not chasing hands" - at times he was doing this with Obasi
"'lin sil di da" - Didn't see this in his Gor Sau with Obasi
"Using Bong Sau to clear a path if an arm comes over the arm" - Didn't see this in his Gor Sau with Obasi
"Angling to strike" - Didn't see this in his Gor Sau with Obasi
"LLHS, LSJC - Delivered like lightning from a mountain" - Didn't see this in his Gor Sau with Obasi

In the clips we've seen of PB, and some recent clips from people like Michael Kurth, we see drills that are clearly focusing on instilling the above points (among other points, too). In this clip with Kevin and Obasi, I don't see any of the above ideas in what Kevin was doing.

Again, full credit to Kevin for having the balls to meet with Obasi after they'd argued online, and to be willing to test with control (neither guy was looking to kill the other, no hard blows were landed to the face, etc). But as I see it, when faced with a large, strong guy - even within a particular and controlled environment (Chi Sau/Gor Sau) - Kevin's PBVT didn't live up to the forum hype.

[chaotic2k]

Yes, I'd agree that Kevin keeps structure to the point where he is moving as a unit. And because Obasi is a big guy who is strong and heavy, that can't be an easy thing to do.

But... :) ... Kevin talks about PBVT and (in addition to saying how other Wing Chunners are "confused", training with a "misinterpretation" and "misunderstanding of the system", etc) he says that PBVT is about:

"Displacing contact so we can hit" - Didn't see this in his Gor Sau with Obasi
"Lead and rear cycling" - Didn't see this in his Gor Sau with Obasi
"Not maintaining contact" - at times he was doing this with Obasi
"Not chasing hands" - at times he was doing this with Obasi
"'lin sil di da" - Didn't see this in his Gor Sau with Obasi
"Using Bong Sau to clear a path if an arm comes over the arm" - Didn't see this in his Gor Sau with Obasi
"Angling to strike" - Didn't see this in his Gor Sau with Obasi
"LLHS, LSJC - Delivered like lightning from a mountain" - Didn't see this in his Gor Sau with Obasi

In the clips we've seen of PB, and some recent clips from people like Michael Kurth, we see drills that are clearly focusing on instilling the above points (among other points, too). In this clip with Kevin and Obasi, I don't see any of the above ideas in what Kevin was doing.

Again, full credit to Kevin for having the balls to meet with Obasi after they'd argued online, and to be willing to test with control (neither guy was looking to kill the other, no hard blows were landed to the face, etc). But as I see it, when faced with a large, strong guy - even within a particular and controlled environment (Chi Sau/Gor Sau) - Kevin's PBVT didn't live up to the forum hype.

Thing is all wing chun guys suffer same fate. Most CMA look great on paper but in reality fail. Kevins stance and shapes are pure WSL stuff. Obassi just letting it go. Very difficult to deal with or apply fixed drill responses under that pressure.

For me Wing Chun is just an element of a fight. Like a good spag bowl needs an onion. Some of my students ask me "why are you not using Wing Chun". Reason is there is a time and a place. Wing chun is just a part of the pie. ;)

[LFJ]

(neither guy was looking to kill the other, no hard blows were landed to the face, etc). But as I see it, when faced with a large, strong guy - even within a particular and controlled environment (Chi Sau/Gor Sau) - Kevin's PBVT didn't live up to the forum hype.

While not trying to do real damage, Obasi was obviously emotional and trying to prove something. Kevin was pretty calm throughout and just trying to get into some sort of rolling platform with him as far as I could tell, but Obasi kept making it some sort of struggle, which is why it made it look like Kevin was chasing hands when he tried to set up properly. He was looking to get into chi-sau, not just fight. Obasi just wasn't cooperating. Eventually Kevin paused and said this isn't our chi-sau. Then Obasi's reaction was rather c0cky. I think he may have actually been proud of himself. :o

Sure, Kevin could have played Obasi's game then and stepped it up, but then it would have turned into a full brawl and someone would have gotten hurt. Obasi was emotional enough as it was. You can't change the mind of a stubborn person like that without actually knocking them out. I think all this clip shows is that Obasi completely falls apart when his emotions get to him. (Did you see him throw his baby fit when the MMA recruiters told him he wasn't good enough? lol)

I think they should get together again and just spar. Maybe get into that cage in the background and go at each other.

[BPWT.]

Obassi just letting it go. Very difficult to deal with or apply fixed drill responses under that pressure.

Indeed. :) But, IMO, the point of drills is not to be able to apply them 'as is' with a set response (though that would be nice :D), but to apply what the drill teaches - positioning, concept, etc. And of course that should be about transferring those ideas to a more 'live' environment. So Gor Sau is a good place to develop this, as it has some constraints/positional rules (starting from Poon Sau) but it also allows some free-flowing play and spontaneity.

Kevin's stance and shapes might very well be a good example of WSL lineage VT stance and shapes, but for me at least, everything else that Kevin talks about here on this forum seemed to go out the window.


Thing is all wing chun guys suffer same fate.

:D Well, we know for sure that Wing Chun works against Wing Chun, that Wing Tsun works against Wing Tsun, and that PBVT works against PBVT. ;)

[chaotic2k]

While not trying to do real damage, Obasi was obviously emotional and trying to prove something. Kevin was pretty calm throughout and just trying to get into some sort of rolling platform with him as far as I could tell, but Obasi kept making it some sort of struggle, which is why it made it look like Kevin was chasing hands when he tried to set up properly. He was looking to get into chi-sau, not just fight. Obasi just wasn't cooperating. Eventually Kevin paused and said this isn't our chi-sau. Then Obasi's reaction was rather c0cky. I think he may have actually been proud of himself. :o

Sure, Kevin could have played Obasi's game then and stepped it up, but then it would have turned into a full brawl and someone would have gotten hurt. Obasi was emotional enough as it was. You can't change the mind of a stubborn person like that without actually knocking them out. I think all this clip shows is that Obasi completely falls apart when his emotions get to him. (Did you see him throw his baby fit when the MMA recruiters told him he wasn't good enough? lol)

I think they should get together again and just spar. Maybe get into that cage in the background and go at each other.

What would them fighting prove? Obasi is clearly the better fighter but this is due to alot of other factors not juat wing chun. Kevin is a Wing chun Vet with alot of experience and is from the old school. One is maybe a bettwr teacher while the other is a better fighter?!?

Kevins an old boy as well. Give him a break. Obasi is having his time now. Making a name. Its all gravey!

[chaotic2k]

Indeed. :) But, IMO, the point of drills is not to be able to apply them 'as is' with a set response (though that would be nice :D), but to apply what the drill teaches - positioning, concept, etc. And of course that should be about transferring those ideas to a more 'live' environment. So Gor Sau is a good place to develop this, as it has some constraints/positional rules (starting from Poon Sau) but it also allows some free-flowing play and spontaneity.

Kevin's stance and shapes might very well be a good example of WSL lineage VT stance and shapes, but for me at least, everything else that Kevin talks about here on this forum seemed to go out the window.



:D Well, we know for sure that Wing Chun works against Wing Chun, that Wing Tsun works against Wing Tsun, and that PBVT works against PBVT. ;)

Drills are good but most traditonal wing chun drills dont help but hinder. Positions, structure all outdated!!

[BPWT.]

While not trying to do real damage, Obasi was obviously emotional and trying to prove something. Kevin was pretty calm throughout and just trying to get into some sort of rolling platform with him as far as I could tell, but Obasi kept making it some sort of struggle, which is why it made it look like Kevin was chasing hands when he tried to set up properly. He was looking to get into chi-sau, not just fight. Obasi just wasn't cooperating. Eventually Kevin paused and said this isn't our chi-sau. Then Obasi's reaction was rather c0cky. I think he may have actually been proud of himself. :o

Sure, Kevin could have played Obasi's game then and stepped it up, but then it would have turned into a full brawl and someone would have gotten hurt. Obasi was emotional enough as it was. You can't change the mind of a stubborn person like that without actually knocking them out. I think all this clip shows is that Obasi completely falls apart when his emotions get to him. (Did you see him throw his baby fit when the MMA recruiters told him he wasn't good enough? lol)

I think they should get together again and just spar. Maybe get into that cage in the background and go at each other.

For sure, Kevin stayed calm throughout, even though Obasi seemed kinda pumped up. So credit to Kev for keeping a cool head.

Regarding chasing hands, I wasn't really referring to Kevin (and Obasi) looking to re-engage in Poon Sau and establish a rolling platform to start from again. I was referring to what Kevin does when Obasi attacks. Kevin follows the attacking arm, sometimes sticking with it, but he never angles and cuts into the attack - he is almost exclusively defending rather than counter-attacking. (so basically, he is doing the very opposite of what you see in all of the PB videos Kevin posts)

It happens. :D Gor Sau frees things up and things do become messier and less like a drill. However, I really don't see Kevin doing the things he says are the hallmarks of PBVT - the things that he claims are right in what he does, compared to the wrong that others do.

[chaotic2k]

For sure, Kevin stayed calm throughout, even though Obasi seemed kinda pumped up. So credit to Kev for keeping a cool head.

Regarding chasing hands, I wasn't really referring to Kevin (and Obasi) looking to re-engage in Poon Sau and establish a rolling platform to start from again. I was referring to what Kevin does when Obasi attacks. Kevin follows the attacking arm, sometimes sticking with it, but he never angles and cuts into the attack - he is almost exclusively defending rather than counter-attacking. (so basically, he is doing the very opposite of what you see in all of the PB videos Kevin posts)

It happens. :D Gor Sau frees things up and things do become messier and less like a drill. However, I really don't see Kevin doing the things he says are the hallmarks of PBVT - the things that he claims are right in what he does, compared to the wrong that others do.

99.9% of all wing chun.... Proberbly including you..

[LFJ]

Kevin follows the attacking arm, sometimes sticking with it, but he never angles and cuts into the attack - he is almost exclusively defending rather than counter-attacking.

I think if he started doing that it would have set Obasi off even further which would not have been good. There were so many times where Kevin could have capitalized on Obasi's loss of balance and overextension, or he could have just punched him straight in the face as open as he left himself. But again, that's not what they were supposed to be doing and with Obasi's emotional state that would have turned it into a fight. I don't think Kevin wanted to go there, and it looks like to me that that is why all he did was defend. Of course the only response Kevin will give is a diplomatic one, but this is my suspicion.

[LFJ]

What would them fighting prove?

Not necessarily "fight", but free spar. That is the only way for two different lineages to compare themselves.


Obasi is clearly the better fighter

I don't know about that. Haven't seen Kevin fight, but Obasi doesn't impress me in the least.


Obasi is having his time now. Making a name.

A bad name. Posts a terribly lousy video of himself setting someone up in what he calls a "Chi Sao Challenge Match" where he almost falls on his face. He should use this clip for his next MMA tryout and see if they don't laugh him out of the building like the last time.

[chaotic2k]

Not necessarily "fight", but free spar. That is the only way for two different lineages to compare themselves.



I don't know about that. Haven't seen Kevin fight, but Obasi doesn't impress me in the least.



A bad name. Posts a terribly lousy video of himself setting someone up in what he calls a "Chi Sao Challenge Match" where he almost falls on his face. He should use this clip for his next MMA tryout and see if they don't laugh him out of the building like the last time.

Obasi is better rounded than most you guys. Doesnt mean hes the dogs bollocks but he can cauae problems.

Frees sparring or whatever sparring is just that. Too much is thought into it by you guys. This is why you dont move forward. To scared of you system looking bad etc... Fighting is fighting, loads of factors involved not just whos system is better. Its who was better on day in many ways...

[Frost]

Not necessarily "fight", but free spar. That is the only way for two different lineages to compare themselves.



I don't know about that. Haven't seen Kevin fight, but Obasi doesn't impress me in the least.



A bad name. Posts a terribly lousy video of himself setting someone up in what he calls a "Chi Sao Challenge Match" where he almost falls on his face. He should use this clip for his next MMA tryout and see if they don't laugh him out of the building like the last time.

at least obassi has actually fought MMA and won a few full contact matches, until you have posted clips of yourself (or heck anyone from your lineage) doing the same your judgement of his skills is worthless and meaningless.
im going to actually apologise to Kevin now for jumping all over the.clip.like I did
As much as I want to make fun of Kevin his response on this thread was very good and should have ended the discussion, instead 3 pages later we have people still mocking him and people defending him because he is wsl lineage and an attack on him is an attack on them. Let it go it was a bad clip of a bad drill with two guys trying to do completely different things.

[BPWT.]

I think if he started doing that it would have set Obasi off even further which would not have been good. There were so many times where Kevin could have capitalized on Obasi's loss of balance and overextension, or he could have just punched him straight in the face as open as he left himself.

In Gor Sau things happen fast. If you have LLHS, LSJC shouldn't Kevin be exploiting the opening automatically? I'm sorry, but for me 90% of what Kevin proclaims is the PBVT system was not seen this clip. He did some things that deserve praise, but still... it was hardly the superior VT method that he, Graham, etc, have been talking about for years and years and years and years. :D


As much as I want to make fun of Kevin his response on this thread was very good and should have ended the discussion, instead 3 pages later we have people still mocking him and people defending him because he is wsl lineage and am attack on him is an attack on them. Let it go it was a bad clip of a bad drill with twp guys trying to do completely different things.

Sure, probably the thread should simmer down. But seriously, after so many discussions/arguments/"whatever's" over how superior the PBVT method is, and how everyone else in the Wing Chun world has it wrong and has "misunderstood the system"... you can't be surprised that we have six pages of comments from some people who were a little surprised to see what was in (and what was not in) this exchange. The video also received a few 'surprised' comments from a German forum too. (though no direct response from PB himself, unfortunately, though he frequents that forum)

[slick69]

Sure, probably the thread should simmer down. But seriously, after so many discussions/arguments/"whatever's" over how superior the PBVT method is, and how everyone else in the Wing Chun world has it wrong and has "misunderstood the system"... you can't be surprised that we have six pages of comments from some people who were a little surprised to see what was in (and what was not in) this exchange. The video also received a few 'surprised' comments from a German forum too. (though no direct response from PB himself, unfortunately, though he frequents that forum)

PBVT guys for years have been basking all outside there linage especially Kevin, to the point it's made this forum hard to discuss any ideas. I really hope this clip will now create an open minded forum and not talk with no substance.

[LFJ]

Obasi is better rounded than most you guys. Doesnt mean hes the dogs bollocks but he can cauae problems.

Frees sparring or whatever sparring is just that. Too much is thought into it by you guys. This is why you dont move forward. To scared of you system looking bad etc... Fighting is fighting, loads of factors involved not just whos system is better. Its who was better on day in many ways...

Slow down. Whatchu mean "you guys"? Wing Chun is not the only system I train and is actually the most recent I've studied. I don't know Kevin and don't share his lineage. I have no reason to defend him. I'm just giving my opinion.


Obasi is better rounded than most you guys.

He fell on his ass just trying to do a round kick on a pad...

[KPM]

Disagree with some of your points. I can see PBWSLVT in Kevin. Obasi looks very strong and i feel other Wing Chun guys i.e Yip Chun etc... Would not keep there structure since they dont understand there boxing forms to the level of WSL method. You can so that Kevin trains his Jon To Ma since he is getting thrown about as a unit.

This is the WSL way. You fight as a unit. Problem is there is not enough spring in the structure and this is why WSL guys get thrown around by really strong guys. Its reallt a universal issue with the WC structure but especially the WSL since they are best at applying it correctly.

Ok. Maybe I should have used a different example. If I had not known this was Kevin, I could have easily assumed he was from the Ho Kam Ming, Augustine Fong, or Robert Chu lineage. These guys DO NOT let themselves get thrown around and collapsed and keep structure just as well as Kevin did in this video. What I saw was nothing special. What I saw did not immediately say to me that this was PBVT or WSLVT. In fact, I would hazard to speculate that Obasi would NOT have done this to Alan Orr. ;-)

[KPM]

While not trying to do real damage, Obasi was obviously emotional and trying to prove something. Kevin was pretty calm throughout and just trying to get into some sort of rolling platform with him as far as I could tell, but Obasi kept making it some sort of struggle, which is why it made it look like Kevin was chasing hands when he tried to set up properly. He was looking to get into chi-sau, not just fight. Obasi just wasn't cooperating.
.

That's total BS and trying to apologize for Kevin's poor performance. As was already pointed out, where was Kevin's use of prime PBVT principles to defend himself? When he realized that Obasi wasn't going to roll with him nicely, why didn't we start to see the Bong Sau structure used as a barrier with angling to the side? Why did he insist on trying to roll when that obviously wasn't Obasi's game plan? He didn't have to turn it into a fight. But he certainly could have stepped out of the Luk Sau platform and into what we see so so often in PBVT clips. He could have defended himself much better with that continuous Bong/Lop and Punch sequence we see so often in the clips he posts. Where was his superior PBVT skills against a big strong guy with little technique that just wanted to rush in on him? That should be WCK 101.

[KPM]

I don't think Kevin wanted to go there, and it looks like to me that that is why all he did was defend. Of course the only response Kevin will give is a diplomatic one, but this is my suspicion.

Really? Kevin has never worried about being PC or diplomatic here in this forum in the past! :eek:

[LFJ]

why didn't we start to see the Bong Sau structure used as a barrier with angling to the side?

Why would you?


Why did he insist on trying to roll when that obviously wasn't Obasi's game plan? He didn't have to turn it into a fight. But he certainly could have stepped out of the Luk Sau platform and into what we see so so often in PBVT clips.

Based on what he said at the end, it seems the point of what they were supposed to be doing was exchanging in chi-sau. But anyway, with a stubborn and c0cky guy like Obasi being in the emotional state he was in, there's usually only one way to get them to acknowledge anything you do, and that is to actually knock them out. You may shut down their attacks and control them (actually Obasi didn't really get anything clean in this exchange), but if you don't actually clean their clock, their ego will tell them you haven't done anything. Yet another reason I don't chi-sau with people of other lineages and insist on sparring.

[KPM]

I don't know Kevin and don't share his lineage. I have no reason to defend him. I'm just giving my opinion.



...

Sure sounds like you're trying to defend him to me! And that's largely what has kept this thread going. In the past you have certainly gone to great efforts to sound like you are part of the PBVT camp and chime right in to support them in various discussions. So your comment above seems a bit out of place to me. Sorry, just my opinion. ;)

[LFJ]

Really? Kevin has never worried about being PC or diplomatic here in this forum in the past! :eek:

Commenting on things where he's not involved. He didn't really add any background details on this exchange or tell us what was actually going on. Did you not see his only comment in this thread? I wonder why he'd knowingly accept a "Chi Sao Challenge Match" since he's always on about how chi-sau isn't fighting nor a competition. Just seems fishy, doesn't it?

[LFJ]

Sure sounds like you're trying to defend him to me! And that's largely what has kept this thread going. In the past you have certainly gone to great efforts to sound like you are part of the PBVT camp and chime right in to support them in various discussions. So your comment above seems a bit out of place to me. Sorry, just my opinion. ;)

Never met PB either. I agree with a lot of what they say, sure, but you seem to have forgotten the LSJK thread? I was not quite on the same page with them. I just say what I see.

[KPM]

Why would you?



Based on what he said at the end, it seems the point of what they were supposed to be doing was exchanging in chi-sau. But anyway, with a stubborn and c0cky guy like Obasi being in the emotional state he was in, there's usually only one way to get them to acknowledge anything you do, and that is to actually knock them out. You may shut down their attacks and control them (actually Obasi didn't really get anything clean in this exchange), but if you don't actually clean their clock, their ego will tell them you haven't done anything. Yet another reason I don't chi-sau with people of other lineages and insist on sparring.

More BS. What I have seen in the PBVT clips that I liked and admired was how PB can use his Bong Sau as a barrier and consistently angle off to the side so that he is not dealing with the opponent's force straight on. Against someone trying to run you over, this is the ideal strategy that leaves him facing empty space. It doesn't necessarily incite him to a fight, and keeps you from getting backed up or run over. From what I've seen here, this seems to be one of the core strategies in PBVT and I didn't see Kevin do it once. No need to clean anyone's clock. Just get out of the way and neutralize his attack. WCK 101.

[KPM]

Commenting on things where he's not involved. He didn't really add any background details on this exchange or tell us what was actually going on. Did you not see his only comment in this thread? I wonder why he'd knowingly accept a "Chi Sao Challenge Match" since he's always on about how chi-sau isn't fighting nor a competition. Just seems fishy, doesn't it?

Yes, I agree with you completely. But to imply that Kevin is being nice because he doesn't want Obasi to look bad seems a bit of a stretch to me!!!!

[LFJ]

More BS. What I have seen in the PBVT clips that I liked and admired was how PB can use his Bong Sau as a barrier and consistently angle off to the side so that he is not dealing with the opponent's force straight on. Against someone trying to run you over, this is the ideal strategy that leaves him facing empty space. It doesn't necessarily incite him to a fight, and keeps you from getting backed up or run over. From what I've seen here, this seems to be one of the core strategies in PBVT and I didn't see Kevin do it once. No need to clean anyone's clock. Just get out of the way and neutralize his attack. WCK 101.

Generally, yes. But there are those stubborn, c0cky types that will not acknowledge that you've done anything to them if you don't actually hurt them. Obasi seems to me like the type you'd have to knock out, and he still might think he won then. He seems proud of his embarrassing performance here.

[jimhalliwell]

Chi Sau??

umm no

I think the only way to deal with someone like this from my point of view is forget trying to roll with this guy and start punching!
It would take me only a few second to realise that this was never going to work and start hitting!
Obassi was probably on some kind of mission in his mind god knows but I think I would have been far less tolerant but maybe that's just my weakness!

Jim.

[Paddington]

[...] Obasi would NOT have done this to Alan Orr. ;-)

Now that is a chi sau session that I would pay to see!

[YouKnowWho]

In the past, things like this had happened quite often in the CMA world. It started with a friendly challenge and later on it turned into something ugly. How can you prevent this from happening to you? You can

1. reject the challenge.
2. accept the challenge, but stop when you detect that your opponent does not follow the original agreement.
3. accept the challenge, but be prepare to change your strategy anytime you may feel needed.
4. apply your strategy right in the beginning (such as try to knock your opponent out with your 1st punch).

Method 1 may be too conservative. Method 4 may be too aggressive. Method 2 may be hard to do. It's not that easy to stop the fight when pressure has been built up. This will only leave method 3. In order to be able to change strategy in the middle of the game, you will need to train more than one strategy and be good at it. The question is what are those different strategies? How to train it?

[hunt1]

Why did anyone think Kevin had any skill. This is a guy that complained it wasn't fair if someone grabbed during chi sao because it made it to hard for him to do his thing. Sad after all the years he has ripped other wing chun families to see he and PBVT is no better than everything else he has run down.

Obasi pushing and muscling. This is a gift if you can "receive what comes". Clearly Kevin does not have functional structure and has no ability to receive. Wing Chun does not run away step straight back or turn away exposing your back. Kevin does all 3 as fast as his little legs will let him. It seems to me PBVT maxim is"run away from what comes and by thankful when is goes".

Youknowwho made great points about challenges. I would have expected to see someone with 30 years of wing chun apply points 2 or 3. Kevin has bragged how he has hit people like Sam Kwok during what was supposed to be friendly chi sao. Interesting when the jerkiness goes full circle.

Vid title wing chun big men chi sao on obasi youtube wing chun ronin channel

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QoRpsV6RpPw&feature=share&list=UUyiwTfjvAgccC313SdYSNxg&index=3

Link to Obasi chi sao with sam kwok grand student. Obasi no different than with Kev .

another vs a small guy. 2 great way's to compare to kev


http://youtu.be/EOG7SFLOoi4

[Vajramusti]

why did anyone think kevin had any skill. This is a guy that complained it wasn't fair if someone grabbed during chi sao because it made it to hard for him to do his thing. Sad after all the years he has ripped other wing chun families to see he and pbvt is no better than everything else he has run down.

Obasi pushing and muscling. This is a gift if you can "receive what comes". Cleary kevin does not have functional structure and has no ability to receive. Wing chun does not run away step straight back or turn away exposing your back. Kevin does all 3 as fast as his little legs will let him. It seems to me pbvt maxim is"run away from what comes and by thankful when is goes".

Youknow made great points about challenges. I would have expected to see someone with 30 years of wing chun apply points 2 or 3. Kevin has bragged how he as hit people like sam kwok during what was supposed to be friendly chi sao. Interesting when the jerkiness goes full circle.

Vid title wing chun big men chi sao on obasi youtube wing chun ronin channel

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qorpsv6rppw&feature=share&list=uuyiwtfjvagccc313sdysnxg&index=3

link to obasi chi sao with sam kwok grand student. Obasi no different than with kev .

Another vs a small guy. 2 great way's to compare to kev


http://youtu.be/eog7sflooi4
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

vbg

[JPinAZ]

While not trying to do real damage, Obasi was obviously emotional and trying to prove something. Kevin was pretty calm throughout and just trying to get into some sort of rolling platform with him as far as I could tell, but Obasi kept making it some sort of struggle, which is why it made it look like Kevin was chasing hands when he tried to set up properly. He was looking to get into chi-sau, not just fight. Obasi just wasn't cooperating. Eventually Kevin paused and said this isn't our chi-sau. Then Obasi's reaction was rather c0cky. I think he may have actually been proud of himself. :o

Sure, Kevin could have played Obasi's game then and stepped it up, but then it would have turned into a full brawl and someone would have gotten hurt. Obasi was emotional enough as it was. You can't change the mind of a stubborn person like that without actually knocking them out. I think all this clip shows is that Obasi completely falls apart when his emotions get to him. (Did you see him throw his baby fit when the MMA recruiters told him he wasn't good enough? lol)

Good observation. That MMA tryout vid with him crying, screaming and kissing peoples feet was embarrassing. He's also very emotional when he posts on his youtube channel as well as facebook. And, some of his older clips on youtube were great evidence of this - to the point he had to take them down to save some dignity. Smart move on his part, because if those were still around, some might even question his sanity. :o

[JPinAZ]

What would them fighting prove? Obasi is clearly the better fighter but this is due to alot of other factors not juat wing chun. Kevin is a Wing chun Vet with alot of experience and is from the old school. One is maybe a bettwr teacher while the other is a better fighter?!?!

Not sure how you can say obasi is a better of a fighter from watching this clip. His lack of balance, root, constant pushing and grabbing would say otherwise IMO. Could be a true statement, but not from what we can see here


at least obassi has actually fought MMA and won a few full contact matches, until you have posted clips of yourself (or heck anyone from your lineage) doing the same your judgement of his skills is worthless and meaningless.

Ture, Obasi has fought 'MMA', but against whom? Have you seen some of those fights?? They were far from stellar, and some against guys so out of shape, they were out of breath and falling down just from touching gloves! To be fair, he does earn some credit for stepping up and fighting - it's more that a lot of armchair warriors would do. But if you actually watch them, most of the showings aren't something to brag about (maybe his one cage fight was 'okish')

[trubblman]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UnehZy1sJSc

Can I get that 40 seconds of my life back? What has Shawn Obasse been eating?

[YouKnowWho]

Not sure how you can say obasi is a better of a fighter from watching this clip. His lack of balance, root, constant pushing and grabbing would say otherwise IMO.

Obasi didn't fall down. His "lack of balance, root" may indicate that he has good "dynamic rooting - lose rooting and regain it back ability". Also why "grabbing" is bad thing?

[Buddha_Fist]

Obasi didn't fall down. His "lack of balance, root" may indicate that he has good "dynamic rooting - lose rooting and regain it back ability". Also why "grabbing" is bad thing?

Slipping and being on the verge of falling is a good thing and provides your punches with proper support?

Regarding grabbing, do you do Wing Chun or Shuai Jiao? ;)

[trubblman]

One thing my teacher always stresses is that a lot of VT presupposes that your opponent will use VT. This is the fallacy I see.

[YouKnowWho]

Regarding grabbing, do you do Wing Chun or ...? ;)

You may not want to do that, but you have to

1. develop the ability to prevent your opponent from doing that, or
2. be able to handle you opponent when he does that.

1 is very hard to do. If you can do 2, you will have good training. IMO, CMA training is to "solve problems". Most of the time, those problems may come from outside of your own systems.

[Buddha_Fist]

You may not want to do that, but you have to

1. develop the ability to prevent your opponent from doing that, or
2. be able to handle you opponent when he does that.

1 is very hard to do. If you can do 2, you will have good training.

Agreed. .

[PalmStriker]

I watched the vid stop frame by the second. Saw 2 sizable guys arm grapple with some pushing, very little striking or foot/leg blocking. Each of them were dislodged at some point but all in all both standing their ground. The only WC stylized sparring/fighting I see anywhere to be truthful is in movies, otherwise, MMA at best in performance, minus high, jump or spin kicks. Frame by frame there is a lot to ward off in the vid. :) Thumbs up!

[LFJ]

Vid title wing chun big men chi sao on obasi youtube wing chun ronin channel

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QoRpsV6RpPw&feature=share&list=UUyiwTfjvAgccC313SdYSNxg&index=3

Link to Obasi chi sao with sam kwok grand student. Obasi no different than with Kev .

another vs a small guy. 2 great way's to compare to kev


http://youtu.be/EOG7SFLOoi4

I see absolutely no value in the type of "chi-sau" Obasi does. It's just arm struggling. Completely useless.

[LFJ]

I think the only way to deal with someone like this from my point of view is forget trying to roll with this guy and start punching!
It would take me only a few second to realise that this was never going to work and start hitting!
Obassi was probably on some kind of mission in his mind god knows but I think I would have been far less tolerant but maybe that's just my weakness!

Not a weakness!

[jimhalliwell]

Obassi I don't know him but Ving Tsun chi sau was obviously not on the menu that day! and it would have been more acceptable for Obassi to make his intensions a little clearer before hand!
I don't know how this was arranged but if there were disagreements over the net (I don't know this) then I for one would know what I would be eating that day!
You have one big guy not rolling just putting two strong arms towards you and I think chi sau should enable you to work round this! In an efficient way and hit !

I think Kevin was hijacked on this occasion and was probably waiting for obassi to settle down I don't know but he must be a far more controlled guy than a hot head like me because I would have tried to hit anyone doing that to me!
Jim.

[BPWT.]

I see absolutely no value in the type of "chi-sau" Obasi does. It's just arm struggling. Completely useless.

The point is not in trying to see value in what Obasi does - I don't think many people would look at his Wing Chun with stars in their eyes.

The point is how Kevin tried to deal with what Obasi does. Kevin's response during their Gor Sau exchange flies in the face of:

a) almost everything he's posted on this forum about what the PBVT method does
b) every video clip he's posted that purportedly shows that PB method
c) all of his critiques of other Wing Chun methods outside of the PB method

It's indicative, no, that Kevin has one made just one post on this thread - and that was to say that Obasi was very strong and took him to his limit (itself an indicative admission).

From the forum's homepage I've seen that Graham, Sean and T-Ray have also visited a few times since this thread was started. All of the PBVT guys are staying quiet regarding this clip. And PB himself has not posted any response to it (that I have seen) on the German forum he often posts on.

[Paddington]

Obassi I don't know him but Ving Tsun chi sau was obviously not on the menu that day! and it would have been more acceptable for Obassi to make his intensions a little clearer before hand!
I don't know how this was arranged but if there were disagreements over the net (I don't know this) then I for one would know what I would be eating that day!
You have one big guy not rolling just putting two strong arms towards you and I think chi sau should enable you to work round this! In an efficient way and hit !

I think Kevin was hijacked on this occasion and was probably waiting for obassi to settle down I don't know but he must be a far more controlled guy than a hot head like me because I would have tried to hit anyone doing that to me!
Jim.


Jim, when you have rolled with people the size of Rick (one of your students that I met at your seminar?) what did you find the best way to manage the sheer strength of people like that beyond just punching and putting them on the back foot?

[jimhalliwell]

Jim, when you have rolled with people the size of Rick (one of your students that I met at your seminar?) what did you find the best way to manage the sheer strength of people like that beyond just punching and putting them on the back foot?

There's a difference here as you know Rick is bigger stronger and looks to me faster than Obassi!
but if I manage to get through without hitting Rick he would see this and acknowledge that. However in this case its very different I think if Kevin had attempted to hit or even get close to hitting then Obassi would have ignored than anyway.
I tend to try and be faster without hitting but hey this is supposed to chi sau and some agreement has to be met, this was no chi sau rolling demo at all just one guy trying to push another round! But hey Kevin is a far better man than me keeping his head because I couldn't at all.

Jim

[Buddha_Fist]

All of the PBVT guys are staying quiet regarding this clip. And PB himself has not posted any response to it (that I have seen) on the German forum he often posts on.

FWIW, I posted on this thread various times since early on - now what?

Philipp has prolonged periods during which he posts prolifically and also others during which he has no time or no interest in doing so. Guess what, there's a life outside of these forums and the ridiculous back-and-forth going on in them. I see much of the discussions herein as a waste of time.

[KPM]

The point is not in trying to see value in what Obasi does - I don't think many people would look at his Wing Chun with stars in their eyes.

The point is how Kevin tried to deal with what Obasi does. Kevin's response during their Gor Sau exchange flies in the face of:

a) almost everything he's posted on this forum about what the PBVT method does
b) every video clip he's posted that purportedly shows that PB method
c) all of his critiques of other Wing Chun methods outside of the PB method

It's indicative, no, that Kevin has one made just one post on this thread - and that was to say that Obasi was very strong and took him to his limit (itself an indicative admission).

From the forum's homepage I've seen that Graham, Sean and T-Ray have also visited a few times since this thread was started. All of the PBVT guys are staying quiet regarding this clip. And PB himself has not posted any response to it (that I have seen) on the German forum he often posts on.

Yes. This is significant and I want to reinforce what BPWT has said. Hopefully this will be my last post on this thread. Those that have been around in this forum for awhile will know that the PBVT guys have consistently and repeatedly posted about how PB was the only student of WSL that got things right. That all of the rest of us have learned a somehow defective and misunderstood version of Wing Chun regardless of lineage. They have told us that what PB teaches is superior and have at many occasions said that they can't adequately explain it and that it has to be seen and experienced. They have posted many many video clips of PBVT guys doing Chi Sao and Lop Da. Now we have a video clip of one of the senior representatives of PBVT in the USA, and one of the most vocal of the PBVT supporters in this forum. Someone that has on multiple occasions belittled and insulted people of other lineages. And he looks like crap. He shows nothing of which he has been posting here for years.

I feel for Kevin. We shouldn't be this critical of anyone. He should be given kudos for actually putting it out there for all to see. But he has brought this upon himself by his past conduct here.
You cannot spend years (literally) belittling others and telling them how superior your version of Wing Chun is, and then when it comes down to a simple exchange show NOTHING of which you have spoken and NOT expect to get heavy criticism. That's just the way it goes.

[BPWT.]

FWIW, I posted on this thread various times since early on

Sorry, I had no idea that you were a PBVT guy. So I stand corrected, one other PBVT student posted (along with Kevin's short response).



Philipp has prolonged periods during which he posts prolifically and also others during which he has no time or no interest in doing so. Guess what, there's a life outside of these forums and the ridiculous back-and-forth going on in them. I see much of the discussions herein as a waste of time.

Sure, there's life outside of the forums. It strikes me as strange, however, that people like Kevin and Graham have been happy to sling mud on many, many threads and for those threads to go on forever, yet when we have a clip of PBVT that is, for once, outside of seminar or lesson setting, and the results are interesting, the PBVT response seems very muted indeed. By and large, PB posts online are also usually critical of others, so again perhaps it is just selective posting.

[LFJ]

The point is not in trying to see value in what Obasi does - I don't think many people would look at his Wing Chun with stars in their eyes.

The point is how Kevin tried to deal with what Obasi does.

I was commenting on the other videos of Obasi's chi-sau exchanges that were posted. That has nothing to do with Kevin. It's an observation of what Obasi does in chi-sau regardless of the opponent.


Kevin's response during their Gor Sau exchange flies in the face of:

Is that what it was? Kevin looked like he was just trying to roll and Obasi didn't know how. But despite that and the obvious imposing size and power Obasi was shoving uncontrollably at him, nothing really got through on Kevin and he wasn't completely manhandled or even put into a terribly vulnerable position. His footwork could have been better and he could have started striking and taking a more advantageous position rather than looking to connect and roll- that is, actually go into gwo-sau- but overall the floor was not wiped with him, by far. We didn't really get to see much from Kevin here as far as method, so there's not much to criticize. Obasi being on the offensive on the other hand...

[Buddha_Fist]

Sure, there's life outside of the forums. It strikes me as strange, however, that people like Kevin and Graham have been happy to sling mud on many, many threads and for those threads to go on forever, yet when we have a clip of PBVT that is, for once, outside of seminar or lesson setting, and the results are interesting, the PBVT response seems very muted indeed. By and large, PB posts online are also usually critical of others, so again perhaps it is just selective posting.

What else do you expect Kevin to post that would provide real value to this thread? He doesn't owe you anything. You may not like Kevin, but guess what... in that case, it would be your problem, not his.

Regarding critically posting, I am sure that if I go through all of your posts and count all the ones with critical content, you will stare at a statistic that may surprise you.... Being critical when reading and writing is the nature of these forums. An exchange of ideas is not constantly praising each other nor reading only posts that concur with your own statements, it is reading, reflecting, and commenting on opposing views. If people can't handle it, they should not read them.

[BPWT.]

Is that what it was? Kevin looked like he was just trying to roll and Obasi didn't know how.

C'mon. Two people argue online, agree to meet and test with some Chi Sau, and you think they are going to roll in Poon Sao only? It is obvious that they'll play in Gor Sau. If Kevin was critical of Obasi's Wing Chun, it was surely from watching clips of Obasi doing Chi Sau.



But despite that and the obvious imposing size and power Obasi was shoving uncontrollably at him, nothing really got through on Kevin and he wasn't completely manhandled or even put into a terribly vulnerable position.

Kevin was manhandled, pushed and pulled back and forth. Obasi got through numerous times - he just wasn't trying to kill Kevin.



We didn't really get to see much from Kevin here as far as method, so there's not much to criticize. Obasi being on the offensive on the other hand...

We should have seen Kevin's method from the get go! If Kevin trains the Chi Sau and Lop Da drills that we see so much of in PBVT video clips, why, when faced with some free flowing Gor Sau, can't he implement the PBVT methods?

What we saw was him stepping backwards, chasing hands and not exploiting openings. What we didn't see was what he always says he trains/has... LSJC, displacing contact so he can hit, angling to hit, lin sil di da, etc.

If you think that there's "not much to criticize" from this clip, especially in light of all that Kevin has posted over the years, then I think you're not really being very honest.

[BPWT.]

What else do you expect Kevin to post that would provide real value to this thread? He doesn't owe you anything. You may not like Kevin, but guess what... in that case, it would be your problem, not his.

Honestly, from Kevin I don't expect much more. I can't imagine the man posting to admit that he didn't live up to hype he creates himself. And yes, he owes me nothing. And I don't like or dislike him. Sometimes he shares, sometimes he's funny, sometimes he believes his own crap.



Regarding critically posting, I am sure that if I go through all of your posts and count all the ones with critical content, you will stare at a statistic that may surprise you....

It really wouldn't surprise me :) It takes two to argue, and I've certainly had a few disagreements with people on this forum. But equally, I've never said that others are "clueless", have "misunderstood the system", etc, etc.

Kevin's words and beliefs regarding PBVT didn't really tally with what he could do when Obasi met with him to see that method.

[Buddha_Fist]

But equally, I've never said that others are "clueless", have "misunderstood the system", etc, etc. Kevin's words and beliefs regarding PBVT didn't really tally with what he could do when Obasi met with him to see that method.

His view opposes yours. Period.

[BPWT.]

His view opposes yours. Period.

Yes. Now more than ever.

[hunt1]

I see absolutely no value in the type of "chi-sau" Obasi does. It's just arm struggling. Completely useless.



I did not say there was value to Obasi chi sau. The point is simple. We have 3 vid's of Obasi being Obasi in chi sau doing what he does . The only person unable to deal with it is the PBVT expert Kevin. He and other PBVT converts have run down Sam Kwok yet his grand student, a student of Phil Nearing if my guess is correct, does a much better job of dealing with Obasi and then we have a much smaller person from Alan Goldberg ,wing chun through Jason Lau,Richard Chen, Moy Yat does an even better job of handling Obasi.

After years of reading how great PBVT is and how Sam Kwok , Moy Yat, Ip Chun Ip Ching Augustine Fong ets is all inferior to what PB teaches it is enlighting to see that when faced by a different non compliant person only the PBVT Sifu is totally incapable of dealing with it while others that are not sifu's and do not claim to train with pro boxers or having defeated countless drunks as a bar bouncer etc are able to hold their own against the very same person doing the very same pushing,muscling stuff.

[LFJ]

C'mon. Two people argue online, agree to meet and test with some Chi Sau, and you think they are going to roll in Poon Sao only? It is obvious that they'll play in Gor Sau. If Kevin was critical of Obasi's Wing Chun, it was surely from watching clips of Obasi doing Chi Sau.

Not sure that's how it went down. No one's talking. All I saw from Obasi is that he had a "challenge fight" lined up and then changed his mind about fighting but still met him nonetheless. Kevin's composure certainly didn't make it seem like they were in any agreed upon challenge match...


Kevin was manhandled, pushed and pulled back and forth. Obasi got through numerous times - he just wasn't trying to kill Kevin.

I don't think it was half that bad. PB literally has people backed to the walls, completely shut down, and even knocked on their asses in his gwo-sau clips. Nothing of the sort happened to Kevin. Despite Obasi's shoving and using his mass, Kevin still kept it in a small area and I don't really see anything clean that got through on him. Obasi was just shoving at him. Even when Kevin was pushed or pulled it didn't really serve much purpose, as he wasn't put into a vulnerable position and Obasi didn't gain any real strikes from it.


We should have seen Kevin's method from the get go! If Kevin trains the Chi Sau and Lop Da drills that we see so much of in PBVT video clips, why, when faced with some free flowing Gor Sau, can't he implement the PBVT methods?

I don't know. Everything leading up to the meeting and the two very different composures are all very confusing. There could be a number of possible reasons Kevin didn't really do anything but try to make arm contact. But no one's talking.


If you think that there's "not much to criticize" from this clip, especially in light of all that Kevin has posted over the years, then I think you're not really being very honest.

Honestly, I think the only way we can really see each method as it should be used is if they sparred. Chi-sau between two different lineages to settle a dispute is always going to be an ugly mess.

[LFJ]

I did not say there was value to Obasi chi sau. The point is simple. We have 3 vid's of Obasi being Obasi in chi sau doing what he does . The only person unable to deal with it is the PBVT expert Kevin. He and other PBVT converts have run down Sam Kwok yet his grand student, a student of Phil Nearing if my guess is correct, does a much better job of dealing with Obasi and then we have a much smaller person from Alan Goldberg ,wing chun through Jason Lau,Richard Chen, Moy Yat does an even better job of handling Obasi.

After years of reading how great PBVT is and how Sam Kwok , Moy Yat, Ip Chun Ip Ching Augustine Fong ets is all inferior to what PB teaches it is enlighting to see that when faced by a different non compliant person only the PBVT Sifu is totally incapable of dealing with it while others that are not sifu's and do not claim to train with pro boxers or having defeated countless drunks as a bar bouncer etc are able to hold their own against the very same person doing the very same pushing,muscling stuff.

True, but I think these other lineages are used to that sort of messy, arm-struggle chi-sau. All this demonstrates is that each method is best against similar approaches. PBVT chi-sau is designed to work with PBVT chi-sau, because it is a developmental drill designed to train skills specific to this method.

After all, it's just chi-sau, not fighting. What would be more telling is if they both used their respective methods in a free sparring match, not some artificial arm-wrestling game. It's all fake if we're trying to judge how "fight-effective" they are based off chi-sau. We get that, right?

[KPM]

LFJ, I could be wrong, but I would be willing to bet that if BPWT had posted a very similar clip but with a Leung Ting lineage guy getting handled by Obasi, you and the entire PBVT crew would have been all over it!!!! :cool:

[Ali. R]

Politics in its finesse form; no salt on my popcorn please, thank you.


Take care,

[LFJ]

LFJ, I could be wrong, but I would be willing to bet that if BPWT had posted a very similar clip but with a Leung Ting lineage guy getting handled by Obasi, you and the entire PBVT crew would have been all over it!!!! :cool:

For myself, that really depends on what exactly happens in the clip. I don't remember that I've made harsh criticism of a clip without pointing out exactly what I think is bad in it and the reasons I think so. Unlike some forum members I don't just say "misunderstood", "confused", etc., do I?

I did have a pretty good laugh at this video though, but I don't think words would have been necessary: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BO5JxAI3CDw

:D

[BPWT.]

True, but I think these other lineages are used to that sort of messy, arm-struggle chi-sau. All this demonstrates is that each method is best against similar approaches. PBVT chi-sau is designed to work with PBVT chi-sau, because it is a developmental drill designed to train skills specific to this method. After all, it's just chi-sau, not fighting. What would be more telling is if they both used their respective methods in a free sparring match, not some artificial arm-wrestling game. It's all fake if we're trying to judge how "fight-effective" they are based off chi-sau. We get that, right?

It's absolutely true, IMO, that Chi Sau is a developmental drill - and there are lots of ways to train Chi Sau. But Gor Sau is about mixing it up and seeing how you're able to apply the art's motions, concepts, etc, in a free-flowing way, against someone who is not simply letting you work something particular.

There's lots of clips of PB doing Chi Sau with his students - and in many of those clips he initiates an attack and the students do very little to try and stop a string of his attacks. It doesn't matter, I guess, if you're working something specific and the roles are reversed and each person, each time, gains something from the exercise. Like you say, that is not fighting but it is a teaching tool.

But Gor Sau is about testing how you deal with resistance. It starts from Poon Sau to create a set range - but when things get going the range/distance changes. Kevin and Obasi were clearly engaging in Gor Sau (even if Obasi looked sloppy), and Kevin's ability to apply what he learns and teaches in Chi Sau wasn't up to much when dealing with a heavy, strong, resisting and aggressive Obasi.

Hunt1's comment was on the money. Others have played like this with Obasi and handled him better. Again, we saw next to nothing of what Kevin preaches online, in this exchange.

Put it another way... if Kevin had closed down most of Obasi's attacks, had clearly shown forward energy and LSJC, displacing Obasi's limbs so he could hit, had been striking open gaps by angling to hit, and had shown (like in all the PB drills on video that Kevin posts) the use of lin sil di da, then you'd be saying this was an excellent example of how good the PBVT method is (and I'd be saying it too, along with most of the forum).

Unfortunately, things didn't work out that way. The bubble burst a little.

[LFJ]

Put it another way... if Kevin had closed down most of Obasi's attacks, had clearly shown forward energy and LSJC, displacing Obasi's limbs so he could hit, had been striking open gaps by angling to hit, and had shown (like in all the PB drills on video that Kevin posts) the use of lin sil di da, then you'd be saying this was an excellent example of how good the PBVT method is (and I'd be saying it too, along with most of the forum).

I still don't think this clip is really proof that Kevin can't apply his method, only that he didn't, and we're left to wonder why. It would not have been difficult, I think. If it were obvious that he was trying to and it was being broken down like the students vs PB, that would be another thing. I didn't see him trying to do anything really and his composure didn't suggest that he was under stress in trying to apply his method. If on the other hand that was his honest best attempt, then I have to wonder how much personal training time he's had with PB. Could he be the next generation of "seminar student", like some of PB's si-dai were under WSL? :o

[hunt1]

[QUOTE=LFJ;1261063]True, but I think these other lineages are used to that sort of messy, arm-struggle chi-sau. All this demonstrates is that each method is best against similar approaches. PBVT chi-sau is designed to work with PBVT chi-sau, because it is a developmental drill designed to train skills specific to this method.

If this is true then PBVT has very little real world value. In most wing chun chi sau is used to develop skills to be used in defending yourself ie a fight. Skills are not developed to be good at chi sau. The most common thing in a fight is an opponent that will grab push and use muscle. This is the most basic real world situation. What ever skills Kevin has developed in PBVT there was no evidence that the skill to deal with the most common real world situation exists. Basic rule number 1 of wing chun is receive what comes. Kevin used step away. Now run away when dealing with intense forward energy may be basic to PBVT and if that is the case Kevin performed perfectly however that is not how other wing chun families are taught to deal with incoming energy.


Also you can deal with intense forwarding and muscle without punching or raising the level up to a fight just look at how the other guys dealt with the same thing.

[LFJ]

If this is true then PBVT has very little real world value. In most wing chun chi sau is used to develop skills to be used in defending yourself ie a fight.

None of the clips in this thread show fights. How one handles another in chi-sau doesn't necessarily show how they'll fare in a fight. To think so is fantasy.


Skills are not developed to be good at chi sau.

Exactly. So why compare who's better against someone at chi-sau? They are people with different methods misusing a developmental drill that should be used to develop skills specific to one's own method to compete with one another and judge it as if it were fighting. It's pure fantasy-fighting.

[LFJ]

Also you can deal with intense forwarding and muscle without punching or raising the level up to a fight just look at how the other guys dealt with the same thing.

Depends on your method and what you train it for, I suppose. Not everyone trains to arm-wrestle.

[BPWT.]

I still don't think this clip is really proof that Kevin can't apply his method....

I think it is proof he couldn't apply it against Obasi. But I think, at heart, that you know what I'm saying, what Hunt1 is saying and what KPM is saying. And I think from your posts, that you understand it and probably agree with it to a certain extent.



If on the other hand that was his honest best attempt, then I have to wonder how much personal training time he's had with PB. Could he be the next generation of "seminar student", like some of PB's si-dai were under WSL? :o

I've no idea how often PB travels to the US, or how often Kevin travels to Germany. But I think all of the PBVT guys on this forum are based outside of Germany, so they are all probably limited to visiting for seminars or selective general class practice. I don't even know when Kevin first started under PB (5 years ago? 10? 15?).

[LFJ]

I think it is proof he couldn't apply it against Obasi. But I think, at heart, that you know what I'm saying, what Hunt1 is saying and what KPM is saying. And I think from your posts, that you understand it and probably agree with it to a certain extent.

I don't know. I gave my opinion on what I saw. I didn't see Kevin even attempt anything. I mean, a single palm strike, punch, even a jam-sau... it wouldn't be that hard to try. Not even a failed attempt was made. So there's really not much to say, except that he didn't do anything.

[Graham H]

From the forum's homepage I've seen that Graham, Sean and T-Ray have also visited a few times since this thread was started. All of the PBVT guys are staying quiet regarding this clip. And PB himself has not posted any response to it (that I have seen) on the German forum he often posts on.

The reason I'm not posting has nothing to do with that video clip. It's because I think most of you are idiots.

[JPinAZ]

Obasi didn't fall down. His "lack of balance, root" may indicate that he has good "dynamic rooting - lose rooting and regain it back ability". Also why "grabbing" is bad thing?

If you train or understand wing chun principles, you wouldn't have to ask these questions. But since you are from SJ background, I can understand why you would have no problem with what shawn does.

Just a reminder, the clip has 'chi sau' in the title.

[Wayfaring]

There's two aspects to this exchange:

1) Politics

2) Techniques

Politics, who cares.

Techniques, my observations:

To comment on the techniques portion of this, I looked at Obasi's youtube channel and his clips. It appears he's been doing a lot of this, traveling around to chi sau with different people. He appears to start the exchange like most people practice chi sau, then switches over to a wrist control grip fighting tactic and uses strength and size to control the movements. He'll fold an elbow over the top of a wrist grab for a strike and also to bring bodies close enough for a knee strike. It looks to me like his grip strength, size and overall strength is making it tougher for smaller opponents to do much.

All I can really note as to this approach is that it seems to be effective at shutting down chi sau. He is playing in a chi sau range, but with a grapplers intent. A grapplers intent is to maintain the connection to your opponent. However a striker's intent is not to maintain the connection. Wrist grabs by someone stronger than you that also can move and preserve center kind of expose a weakness to the chi sau drill if someone doesn't play along.

So what should you do? The correct approach is that you need to free up a limb and blast. Control the distance. Knee strikes work both ways not just one if someone is in close, need to block knees and throw your own. To strip the grip of someone with stronger grip strength than you, you need to work against it with it in closer to your body and your opponent's arm extended. huen, change angles, strip, etc. Then once it's free blast hard. They'll be looking to grip again - make them pay. What else? Knees, trips, leg kicks. If someone has both my wrists but not my center I'll blast straight up the middle with a kick with the right alignment. Basically though, you need to practice it with people trying to grab you like that. Also, if you can get a guy stretched out short/long on one side with wrist grabs, you can come over the short side with an elbow. A good elbow has calming effects.

The problem with doing this in a chi sau arrangement is that it will probably escalate the situation into a fight.

[slick69]

The reason I'm not posting has nothing to do with that video clip. It's because I think most of you are idiots.

Some people never learn.
I guess we all learnt that you're tough talking and BS only works on forums not outside the internet :)

[BPWT.]

The reason I'm not posting has nothing to do with that video clip. It's because I think most of you are idiots.

Got it. Nothing to do with the clip. Thanks for the clarification.

[BPWT.]

People, as much as it would delight the Bayer bashers if it was,..... I'm sorry to have to point out this is not PB VT vs Obassi WC.

That's exactly what we've been saying. Kevin wasn't able to show anything he talks about online. So sure, not PBVT :D

Of course, I think you're trying to suggest that Kevin, quite consciously, switched off all those years of training and reflexes and just did nothing except retreat backwards and chase hands in order to let Obasi do his thing... with a camera rolling, after having argued with Obasi online, and with the talk of challenges in the air.

A bit of a stretch. Unless PBVT is not about reflex and you guys think out your responses to attacks in the heat of the moment. The plot thickens...

[BPWT.]

Sean is the strongest guy I have ever chi sao'ed and he pushed me to the limits props to him. And his mma experience is obvious. Anyone doubting him can try it out.

Just to add, T_Ray; while Kevin posts to say that Obasi "pushed him to his limits" and commends Obasi for it, you're suggesting that Kevin was "not even attempting to compete."

So... pushed to his limits while at the same time not really trying and somehow deliberately turning off reflex and method gained in his years of training with PB.

The real thing being "pushed to the limit" guys, is logic.

[YouKnowWho]

Just a reminder, the clip has 'chi sau' in the title.
The clip has title as "Chi Sao 'Challenge' Match". We have to agree that this is a "challenge".

When you play sticky hands with a challenger, what do you expect out of it? That challenger is not your training partner. Do you want to:

- teach that person?
- learn from that person?
- beat that person up?
- let that person to beat you up?

Also I don't agree with the "ego" issue. If you challenge someone and your goal is to win, it has nothing to do with "ego". How will you be able to prevent people from knocking on your door everyday and asking for challenge. In the TCMA world, there is only one solution and that is to hurt the challenger so bad that scare all the other challengers away.

If you don't want to take that violent route, you can always take some more civilized route. Some TCMA masters told me how they had handled personal challenge. Instead of doing sparring (or sticky hands),

- The praying mantis master Brendan Lai told the other guy, "I'm going to punch you just once. If you can block my punch, you win, otherwise, you lose."
- The SC master David C. K. Lin told the other guy, "I'm going to take you down 3 times. If you can stand on you feet for more than 3 seconds on any of those 3 tries, you win, otherwise, you lose."

Both challenge methods are much easier to decide winner and loser without having to get into serious violence.

[KPM]

For myself, that really depends on what exactly happens in the clip. I don't remember that I've made harsh criticism of a clip without pointing out exactly what I think is bad in it and the reasons I think so. Unlike some forum members I don't just say "misunderstood", "confused", etc., do I?

I did have a pretty good laugh at this video though, but I don't think words would have been necessary: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BO5JxAI3CDw

:D

Yes, you are right. I have to agree with you on both points! ;)

[KPM]

The reason I'm not posting has nothing to do with that video clip. It's because I think most of you are idiots.

Sterling representative of the PBVT lineage! :rolleyes:

[KPM]

That's exactly what we've been saying. Kevin wasn't able to show anything he talks about online. So sure, not PBVT :D

Of course, I think you're trying to suggest that Kevin, quite consciously, switched off all those years of training and reflexes and just did nothing except retreat backwards and chase hands in order to let Obasi do his thing... with a camera rolling, after having argued with Obasi online, and with the talk of challenges in the air.

A bit of a stretch. Unless PBVT is not about reflex and you guys think out your responses to attacks in the heat of the moment. The plot thickens...

+1, well said

[Grumblegeezer]

LFJ, I could be wrong, but I would be willing to bet that if BPWT had posted a very similar clip but with a Leung Ting lineage guy getting handled by Obasi, you and the entire PBVT crew would have been all over it!!!! :cool:

Yep, then LFJ responds by posting a clip panning Leung Ting ...which just proves your point, of course.

On the other hand, remember that clip of Obasi working with Emin (another LT guy)?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r-fElkCj0qk



Funny how that time Obasi never copped an attitude, and (unfortunately, in my opinion) never tried to free it up. Why? Well pretty obviously he was intimidated by Emin. So he just behaved himself like a student taking a lesson. Wonder why he wasn't intimidated by Kevin? You know, a tall guy, former bouncer and possessing those infinitely superior PBVT skills? Clearly Obasi doesn't follow this forum!!!

[GlennR]

Yep, then LFJ responds by posting a clip panning Leung Ting ...which just proves your point, of course.

On the other hand, remember that clip of Obasi working with Emin (another LT guy)?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r-fElkCj0qk



Funny how that time Obasi never copped an attitude, and (unfortunately, in my opinion) never tried to free it up. Why? Well pretty obviously he was intimidated by Emin. So he just behaved himself like a student taking a lesson. Wonder why he wasn't intimidated by Kevin? You know, a tall guy, former bouncer and possessing those infinitely superior PBVT skills? Clearly Obasi doesn't follow this forum!!!

Im not on the forum much these days, to be honest i think it has died a bit of a death over the last year or so, but this does warrant a comment or two given the history of the chaps in the video.

From my point of view, i didnt see Kevin do such a bad job against Obasi,i who is a big guy with a lot of cross-lineage chi-sao experience. He kept his balance and structure and could have delivered a punch, i feel, if he had practiced enough against people just like Sean..... that is; big, strong, experienced at the chose platform and unpredictable.

Kevin obviously doesnt, but he's hardly the only person guilty of that.

Emin on the other hand HAS done what Kevin hasnt, cross trained continuously against other styles/lineages, id suggest sparred a lot and so on.

He's prepared for an Obasi as he has trained for such an occasion. Doing bong-lap over and over with your mates wont get you there......................... period

Hats of the Kev though, you fronted, got it filmed and will learn from it...... mate, ring him up and do it again next week, youll only learn from it

[LFJ]

That's exactly what we've been saying. Kevin wasn't able to show anything he talks about online. So sure, not PBVT :D

It really doesn't appear that he wasn't able to. He didn't even make a failed attempt. So I don't know what you're talking about. You're just taking the opportunity to fire back the criticism.


Of course, I think you're trying to suggest that Kevin, quite consciously, switched off all those years of training and reflexes and just did nothing except retreat backwards and chase hands in order to let Obasi do his thing... with a camera rolling, after having argued with Obasi online, and with the talk of challenges in the air.

A bit of a stretch. Unless PBVT is not about reflex and you guys think out your responses to attacks in the heat of the moment. The plot thickens...

Sure, the method is about developing instinctive response, but it is volitional as well. You should be able to control yourself. If you were doing chi-sau with a little kid, you wouldn't automatically punch him in the face by reflex, would you? So, you can control yourself. :rolleyes:


Just to add, T_Ray; while Kevin posts to say that Obasi "pushed him to his limits" and commends Obasi for it, you're suggesting that Kevin was "not even attempting to compete."

So... pushed to his limits while at the same time not really trying and somehow deliberately turning off reflex and method gained in his years of training with PB.

Just remember, you don't know the situation. You're just looking at a clip without complete context.

On Facebook, Obasi said he was deliberately shoving at Kevin to test his structure. That, I presume, is what Kevin referred to when he said Obasi was strong and pushed him to the limit. Despite that, he wasn't pushed out of the area or even into a vulnerable position and he maintained his structure. So, overall he didn't really fail the test.

We also don't know what happened afterward when he said this isn't our chi-sau. Maybe he then proceeded to take his turn demonstrating his method and testing Obasi. Take one 39 second clip with no context, and you can say almost anything about it...

[BPWT.]

Sure, it's easy to speculate. So it's easy to say that such and such might have happened after the camera stopped rolling. As we don't know, all we can do is judge/examine what we saw when the camera was rolling. Like I said, Kevin kept his balance, kept to some extent his structure, and kept a level head. He also had the balls to meet with Obasi. All to be commended, especially considering how Obasi is big, strong and was steaming in, intent on proving a point (whatever point that might have been).

But he (Kevin) also failed to exhibited any of the PBVT hallmarks he posts about; the things that are seen in all of the videos he posts of PB drills, etc. He's posted in the past about how Chi Sau instills habits, and as you say the system and its training is geared towards giving/developing instinctive responses.

So yes, you're not going to hit a kid or a beginner full in the face - due to reflex response, but the instinctive response is not connected to how hard you strike, but the fact that you strike, or intercept and strike, or angle and strike, etc. When pushed, pulled and struck, I can't see Kevin doing anything that looks like the PBVT we've all seen in other clips. Indeed, he does numerous things that he says other lineages do and which he has said are 'wrong', 'misinterpretations', etc.

As was pointed out, Kevin owes me nothing (and owes nothing to anyone else on this forum - or other forums where this clip has been critiqued). I'm saying I'm surprised. After all that Kevin has said, I was expecting more; something better and more in line with his comments here. I was hoping to see more - wanted to see him apply the art as he describes it.

What I saw, is that when faced with a big, strong guy, he had trouble playing his game and handling the momentum. When unorthodox (read: crappy :D) attacks came in, Kevin didn't seem to be able to apply the VT from the drills he trains to be able to apply it.

Whatever (as Kevin would tell us). :) You live and learn.

[LFJ]

But he (Kevin) also failed to exhibited any of the PBVT hallmarks he posts about;...
...What I saw, is that when faced with a big, strong guy, he had trouble playing his game and handling the momentum.

You're just bullsh!tting, man. He didn't even make a failed attempt so where do you see that he failed or had trouble applying his stuff successfully? He just didn't.


So yes, you're not going to hit a kid or a beginner full in the face - due to reflex response, but the instinctive response is not connected to how hard you strike, but the fact that you strike, or intercept and strike, or angle and strike, etc.

So you'd be unable to keep from hitting someone if all you're supposed to do is let them push and test your structure? Maybe you're just a violent person unable to control yourself?

[BPWT.]

You're just bullsh!tting, man. He didn't even make a failed attempt so where do you see that he failed or had trouble applying his stuff successfully? He just didn't.

I hate snakes. They scare the b'jesus out of me. If someone said, "Hey, grab that snake," and I saw it and stood rooted to the spot from fear (a real possibility) and I therefore made absolutely no attempt to grab that snake... I would have failed to grab it. I wouldn't say, "Nope, I didn't fail because actually I made no attempt to grab it."

Why did the clip fail to show any recognizable PBVT? I don't know. Maybe Kevin doesn't practice with people outside of the PBVT method. Maybe he doesn't train with people who play the way Obasi does. Maybe the drills he trains focus too much on dealing with the system as he trains it. Maybe he couldn't handle someone that big. I don't know why. I just know that I didn't see anything in that clip that looked like something from any of the hundreds of PBVT clips Kevin has posted.


So you'd be unable to keep from hitting someone if all you're supposed to do is let them push and test your structure? Maybe you're just a violent person unable to control yourself?

You're saying that the two of them agreed that Obasi would push to test Kevin's structure, and that Kevin would not apply VT to defend - that they agreed Kevin would just try to keep his structure? If that is "all you're supposed to do" why was Obasi pulling, and striking and throwing in a few knees, etc? Why did Kevin post here to call this "Chi Sau"?

Kevin said, "That's not our Chi Sau." He didn't say, "That's not our Structure Test designed to see how we respond to being pushed."

If someone said to me, "I will push you and all you have to do keep structure," then of course I wouldn't automatically hit them. But these two were rolling and engaging in Gor Sau. They are not just pushing, but striking too. Such a setting is exactly where the "instinctive response" is meant to be found. In spontaneity, not in an isolated test of structure. And lets be honest, the reflex to strike into an open space is not just a reflex of, say, a punch. It is also a reflex to create an angle, to shift or step in response to something - and that too was missing in this clip.

[BPWT.]

But look - if you watch that video clip and from a PBVT perspective, or a WSLVT perspective, it answers all of your questions and/or satisfies your wants and needs regarding Ving Tsun.... then fair enough.

If you see in that clip Kevin doing what you would expect him to do based on his previous uploads (of PB video and Kevin's own text/posts and explanations)... then fair enough.

For me it was a disappointment, and in future when he posts about the Ving Tsun system, I will view his posts in light of the two video clips he's posted (this recent one and the one where he was with PB at the seminar in New Jersey).

You're entitled, and welcome as far as I'm concerned, to view this stuff however you wish.

[KPM]

Sure, it's easy to speculate. So it's easy to say that such and such might have happened after the camera stopped rolling. As we don't know, all we can do is judge/examine what we saw when the camera was rolling. Like I said, Kevin kept his balance, kept to some extent his structure, and kept a level head. He also had the balls to meet with Obasi. All to be commended, especially considering how Obasi is big, strong and was steaming in, intent on proving a point (whatever point that might have been).

But he (Kevin) also failed to exhibited any of the PBVT hallmarks he posts about; the things that are seen in all of the videos he posts of PB drills, etc. He's posted in the past about how Chi Sau instills habits, and as you say the system and its training is geared towards giving/developing instinctive responses.

So yes, you're not going to hit a kid or a beginner full in the face - due to reflex response, but the instinctive response is not connected to how hard you strike, but the fact that you strike, or intercept and strike, or angle and strike, etc. When pushed, pulled and struck, I can't see Kevin doing anything that looks like the PBVT we've all seen in other clips. Indeed, he does numerous things that he says other lineages do and which he has said are 'wrong', 'misinterpretations', etc.

As was pointed out, Kevin owes me nothing (and owes nothing to anyone else on this forum - or other forums where this clip has been critiqued). I'm saying I'm surprised. After all that Kevin has said, I was expecting more; something better and more in line with his comments here. I was hoping to see more - wanted to see him apply the art as he describes it.

What I saw, is that when faced with a big, strong guy, he had trouble playing his game and handling the momentum. When unorthodox (read: crappy :D) attacks came in, Kevin didn't seem to be able to apply the VT from the drills he trains to be able to apply it.

Whatever (as Kevin would tell us). :) You live and learn.

This sums it up exactly for me as well. To continue to try and defend Kevin's performance in that video just keeps this thread chugging pointlessly along, now that the bottomline should be pretty clear to anyone following it.

[LFJ]

I hate snakes. They scare the b'jesus out of me. If someone said, "Hey, grab that snake," and I saw it and stood rooted to the spot from fear (a real possibility) and I therefore made absolutely no attempt to grab that snake... I would have failed to grab it. I wouldn't say, "Nope, I didn't fail because actually I made no attempt to grab it."

That's because you're confusing 'fail at' and 'fail to'. To fail means to be unsuccessful in the performance or completion of. It implies that you've made an attempt and means that you were unsuccessful. I've never been skydiving. I've also never failed at it. You said Kevin "wasn't able to" apply his stuff, which implies he made a failed attempt. Can you point out in the clip where he made a failed attempt?


Why did the clip fail to show any recognizable PBVT? I don't know.

Then don't say you know he was "having trouble applying" his stuff.


If someone said to me, "I will push you and all you have to do keep structure," then of course I wouldn't automatically hit them.

Then don't criticize Kevin for not instinctively attacking. It can obviously be controlled and isn't a failure of method.


But these two were rolling and engaging in Gor Sau. They are not just pushing, but striking too.

Neither of them referred to it as gwo-sau and I didn't see Kevin striking at all. Not a single attempted palm strike, punch, or even a jam-sau. He just let Obasi push and pull at him and maintained structure well considering Obasi's size and strength.


It is also a reflex to create an angle, to shift or step in response to something - and that too was missing in this clip.

If you do that you will dissipate the partner's energy, rather than let it test your structure- which is what Obasi said he was trying to do. The "challenge" appears to have been a structure test and Obasi gave it his all, even took Kevin to his limit, but the clip shows nothing about the failure of PBVT, as much as you really want to throw the dirt back at him. There's just honestly nothing there.

[LFJ]

To continue to try and defend Kevin's performance in that video just keeps this thread chugging pointlessly along, now that the bottomline should be pretty clear to anyone following it.

What should be clear to anyone who watches the clip with an unbiased eye, is that Kevin didn't make an attempt to apply his method. To criticize it is an obvious stretch to find something to throw back at Kevin for his critical words of your lineages. That's the real bottom line, I think. Keep in mind, I haven't met Kevin, haven't met Philipp, and don't train PBVT lineage.

[BPWT.]

That's because you're confusing 'fail at' and 'fail to'. To fail means to be unsuccessful in the performance or completion of. It implies that you've made an attempt and means that you were unsuccessful. I've never been skydiving. I've also never failed at it. You said Kevin "wasn't able to" apply his stuff, which implies he made a failed attempt. Can you point out in the clip where he made a failed attempt?

LFJ, the whole clip was a failed attempt.

Kevin learns (indeed he also teaches) PBVT. The two get into an online dispute (take a look at Kevin here and I think you can see how the might happen :roll eyes:). They roll and... Obasi attacks (pushing, pulling, punching, knees, and I think an attempted kick at one point). None of that was choreographed between the two, I am sure you'd agree. So it was free-flowing. It was Gor Sau (no different to what we see from Obasi in the other Wing Chun Chi Sau videos he posts), only rather one sided in this case as Obasi clearly dominated.

So why do I think the whole thing was a failed attempt (from Kevin's side)?

Because there is no one on this planet who is more vocal about the superiority of PBVT, than Kevin Gledhill. (admittedly, Graham comes a close second and tries hard :)). With a camera rolling, after internet challenges were made (at least a friendly one - along the lines of come visit me), do you really, really think that when Obasi starts attacking and using his strength, that Kevin would deliberately not use his system? :confused:

You really think that he would choose to let himself be moved all over the place, pulled into knees and walk into strikes and really not look that good... on purpose? We all know him as a PBVT instructor and you think he'd want to look like this? :confused:

Or do you think that what you saw in the clip was an example of the PBVT method testing structure? In that case, are you saying that in the PBVT way of things, they test structure by sticking to hands and chasing hands? I can't see that somehow.



Neither of them referred to it as gwo-sau and I didn't see Kevin striking at all. Not a single attempted palm strike, punch, or even a jam-sau. He just let Obasi push and pull at him and maintained structure well considering Obasi's size and strength.

Sure, they didn't refer to it as Gor Sau. But I saw one person treating it as such and the other person clinging on. Call it whatever you like, but I can't even see how this was purely a test of structure as you're saying - as I said above, testing structure by sticking - really, from a PBVT guy? Kevin has said they don't want to stick, they want to hit.

Or testing structure by retreating backwards and then letting someone get in for a strike that then resulted in him being pulled around by the neck? This all looks to me like something you'd see in Gor Sau, rather than a structure test.

I'm not taking the p*ss here, by the way, I'm really asking you genuinely.

You think this clip shows a test of structure? You think Kevin wants to be seen to be doing things that are clearly not PBVT (worse yet, to be doing things he's said don't get done in PBVT)? :confused:

To top it all - Kevin finished things by saying to Obasi that that was not how they do Chi Sau. CHI SAU. He didn't say anything about taking part in a structure test.

As for Kevin not striking, well he doesn't. In terms of whether he wanted to and tried, or not - good luck making something that out from the messiness of it all, and the hand chasing. I agree, it's hard to strike if you're sticking to someone's arms to try and stop them attacking. But again, why would Kevin do that? This shows his method how exactly? :confused:



... the clip shows nothing about the failure of PBVT, as much as you really want to throw the dirt back at him.

Maybe I wasn't clear enough regarding this. I am not talking about the failure of PBVT (I could hardly make a statement about a whole system and its method of teaching based on one video); I am saying that in this clip I think it is clear that Kevin failed to implement his PBVT.

Again, I say this because whatever Kevin is doing here it looks nothing like PBVT from everything else he's posted (whether this is now being claimed to be a structure test - which I think makes no sense - or not).

Bottom line: They roll. Obasi attacks constantly for 40 seconds. Kevin chases arms and sticks. Obasi looks like Obasi. Kevin looks like nothing else seen in a PBVT video.

[LFJ]

LFJ, the whole clip was a failed attempt.

Saw that coming.


The two get into an online dispute

About what exactly? Do you even know?


Or do you think that what you saw in the clip was an example of the PBVT method testing structure?

Obviously not, as Kevin even said in the clip that is not how they do it.


Call it whatever you like, but I can't even see how this was purely a test of structure as you're saying...
...You think this clip shows a test of structure?

I was quoting Obasi. That's what he said he was doing.


To top it all - Kevin finished things by saying to Obasi that that was not how they do Chi Sau. CHI SAU. He didn't say anything about taking part in a structure test.

Structure testing is part of chi-sau, one of the main objectives, and apparently what this "challenge" was about.


But again, why would Kevin do that? This shows his method how exactly?

Exactly, it doesn't. So what are you criticizing? You didn't see him show his method and equate that to him failing at implementing it.


I am saying that in this clip I think it is clear that Kevin failed to implement his PBVT.

"Failed to implement" doesn't mean the same as "failed at implementing", as you would like to see it.

[BPWT.]

We both see this video clip very, very differently. You think Kevin wasn't showing his method and that's why it looked crap, I think Kevin couldn't show his method, and that's why it was crap.

Either way, nothing changes. Whatever was/wasn't being shown or attempted, it's clear to me that the things going on in that clip are not for me.

There's a high probability that the next clip posted of PBVT will be some more Bong/Lap drill, so I guess we'll just keep seeing things differently regarding this particular clip.

[LFJ]

You think Kevin wasn't showing his method and that's why it looked crap,

No. I think the sh!t Obasi was showing is what made it look so terrible.


Either way, nothing changes. Whatever was/wasn't being shown or attempted, it's clear to me that the things going on in that clip are not for me.

Nor for me, and clearly Kevin as well. Funny.

[slick69]

No. I think the sh!t Obasi was showing is what made it look so terrible.



Nor for me, and clearly Kevin as well. Funny.

Well on Obassi's facebook page
@jamie
i can live with it, because there are everywhere these kind of idiots... in all lineages... but just for the info again: kevin did very bad! also because he did so many years wingchun than gone to philipp and in that 7 years he saw philipp bayer 2 times!!! 2!!!

I dont think, that shawn respects philipp anymore, but i know the next time when he touch hands with philipp, then philipp will show him giving 100%... maybe that will change shawns mind, and not a pbvt rookie that claimed himself as THE MAN in us forums... and this is not fanboy trash... To be honest, shawn is maybe a good guy but he´s now completely wrong with his thinking of his skilllevel. I also said, "come to germany i show you many guys, that will show you, you´re far away from philipp" by the way philipp also was very angry with kevin because of his skill level and talking about other lineages... because he also always says no one is untouchable and wong shun leung sigung always said, if you fight, you will get hit. regards :)

[LFJ]

Well on Obassi's facebook page
@jamie
i can live with it, because there are everywhere these kind of idiots... in all lineages... but just for the info again: kevin did very bad! also because he did so many years wingchun than gone to philipp and in that 7 years he saw philipp bayer 2 times!!! 2!!!

I dont think, that shawn respects philipp anymore, but i know the next time when he touch hands with philipp, then philipp will show him giving 100%... maybe that will change shawns mind, and not a pbvt rookie that claimed himself as THE MAN in us forums... and this is not fanboy trash... To be honest, shawn is maybe a good guy but he´s now completely wrong with his thinking of his skilllevel. I also said, "come to germany i show you many guys, that will show you, you´re far away from philipp" by the way philipp also was very angry with kevin because of his skill level and talking about other lineages... because he also always says no one is untouchable and wong shun leung sigung always said, if you fight, you will get hit. regards :)

I don't know, since I've never met him. I gave the benefit of the doubt because I honestly didn't see him even attempt to do anything of the PBVT method. If it is in fact because he couldn't, then as I said, I assumed it's because he's one of those "seminar students", like the ones under WSL that he and the others put down for being such and not getting the whole picture.

Props to Obasi for being a "wing chun ronin" and doing his thing and trying to learn, but he has yet to come to an understanding of good wing chun. In my opinion, what he did was still worse than Kevin, even though Kevin didn't mount any sort of offense.

[sanjuro_ronin]

It really is quite simple and it has very little to do with there was "chi sao" or a challenge or anything silly like that.
It was quite simply an example of what happens when ingrained motor skills meet something OUTSIDE what they are used to.
Kevin is used to Chi Sao under method "A" and Shawn exposed him to method "B".
When you are NOT used to the "puzzle" that is being presented, you have to adapt to it as best you can.
That is why pro fighters have "feeling out" rounds.
The more "narrow" and "system specific" the drill is, like in the example of Chi Sao, the far easier it is to be "puzzled" when presented with something outside the usual that you are used to.

Shawn "manhandled" the situation because that is his "chi sao", or at least how he choose to present it at that time.

Kevin either didn't have the "tools" to deal with that or chose not to, only Kevin knows for sure.
Either way, all that happened is that one guys style of Chi Sao was different than the others and that Kevin didn't addressed it as well as perhaps he should have.

[slick69]

It really is quite simple and it has very little to do with there was "chi sao" or a challenge or anything silly like that.
It was quite simply an example of what happens when ingrained motor skills meet something OUTSIDE what they are used to.
Kevin is used to Chi Sao under method "A" and Shawn exposed him to method "B".
When you are NOT used to the "puzzle" that is being presented, you have to adapt to it as best you can.
That is why pro fighters have "feeling out" rounds.
The more "narrow" and "system specific" the drill is, like in the example of Chi Sao, the far easier it is to be "puzzled" when presented with something outside the usual that you are used to.

Shawn "manhandled" the situation because that is his "chi sao", or at least how he choose to present it at that time.

Kevin either didn't have the "tools" to deal with that or chose not to, only Kevin knows for sure.
Either way, all that happened is that one guys style of Chi Sao was different than the others and that Kevin didn't addressed it as well as perhaps he should have.


Kevin has been an abusive big mouth in the forum for years, insulting anything that was not PBVT. If this clip was not about him, no one would care. Obassi did what Obassi does...

[LFJ]

It was quite simply an example of what happens when ingrained motor skills meet something OUTSIDE what they are used to.
Kevin is used to Chi Sao under method "A" and Shawn exposed him to method "B".
When you are NOT used to the "puzzle" that is being presented, you have to adapt to it as best you can.

I don't understand what's so hard about it. The system is very simple and built around the centerline theory and straight punch. The biggest obstacle is the fighter who keeps center very well. Obasi was exposed and overextended so many times; when there's nothing in the way, go forward. It should be much easier to deal with than what one is used to in well structured chi-sau. I agree mostly with what Jim said earlier. Just start punching.

[Vajramusti]

It really is quite simple and it has very little to do with there was "chi sao" or a challenge or anything silly like that.
It was quite simply an example of what happens when ingrained motor skills meet something OUTSIDE what they are used to.
Kevin is used to Chi Sao under method "A" and Shawn exposed him to method "B".
When you are NOT used to the "puzzle" that is being presented, you have to adapt to it as best you can.
That is why pro fighters have "feeling out" rounds.
The more "narrow" and "system specific" the drill is, like in the example of Chi Sao, the far easier it is to be "puzzled" when presented with something outside the usual that you are used to.

Shawn "manhandled" the situation because that is his "chi sao", or at least how he choose to present it at that time.

Kevin either didn't have the "tools" to deal with that or chose not to, only Kevin knows for sure.
Either way, all that happened is that one guys style of Chi Sao was different than the others and that Kevin didn't addressed it as well as perhaps he should have.
--------------------------------------------------------
IMO- Shawn is just pushing- not really chi sao, KG is bewildered and not doing much...

an unproductive thread is the result. If KG had started this thread, my hunch is that it would have disappeared.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I don't understand what's so hard about it. The system is very simple and built around the centerline theory and straight punch. The biggest obstacle is the fighter who keeps center very well. Obasi was exposed and overextended so many times; when there's nothing in the way, go forward. It should be much easier to deal with than what one is used to in well structured chi-sau. I agree mostly with what Jim said earlier. Just start punching.

This is not about the SYSTEM of WC but about a particular DRILL and the often-abused verbage that is " doesn't look like WC" even though no one can pin down what WC is SUPPOSE to look like in a "live" situation ( opponent is actively resisting).
I agree that WC, in terms of fighting, is simple and direct. It claims as much over and over.
Of course, as we also see over and over and over. something gets lost in the translation when WC practitioners actually cross hands OUTSIDE their own kwoons and VS resisting opponents.
Even in controlled circumstances like the one in the video clip.
WHY that happens is the issue at hand, IMO.
And IMO the reason is that far too many WC practitioners spend time with "dead" drills VS one another instead of actually FIGHTING with their system.

[LFJ]

And IMO the reason is that far too many WC practitioners spend time with "dead" drills VS one another instead of actually FIGHTING with their system.

Completely agree! I've seen too many schools, even in the heartland, HK, that only work on forms for a bit and then endless hours of chi-sau and seemingly never actually spar- even amongst themselves. Chi-sau can be said to be the 'heart' of wing chun, but addiction to it will lead to a fatal heart attack in the real!

[sihing]

This is not about the SYSTEM of WC but about a particular DRILL and the often-abused verbage that is " doesn't look like WC" even though no one can pin down what WC is SUPPOSE to look like in a "live" situation ( opponent is actively resisting).I agree that WC, in terms of fighting, is simple and direct. It claims as much over and over.
Of course, as we also see over and over and over. something gets lost in the translation when WC practitioners actually cross hands OUTSIDE their own kwoons and VS resisting opponents.
Even in controlled circumstances like the one in the video clip.
WHY that happens is the issue at hand, IMO.
And IMO the reason is that far too many WC practitioners spend time with "dead" drills VS one another instead of actually FIGHTING with their system.

This is why for me over the years that I've come to discover that WC/VT does not look like anything in particular when being used, when being applied. If you apply it like a style, like it is trained and such, you will see something similar to what you see in the video, two ppl travelling along the same lines, and trying to deal with it, both Shawn and Kev have different responses to that clash of force.


Chi sau, as most of the WC system is, is pure development, it takes someone from swining wildly and hoping to land something, to someone that has their hands in front of them (not extended in Wu sau, just infront), has a connected power base via the whole body and the joints/power points, good aim (where you want to hit you hit), and the ability to hit in the same place again or adjust that aim to another direction, the ability to recover, maintain a sense of balance and equanimity, short power generation, some sensitivity to contact on the arms and body so that one can react quicker... these are just a few things, but how one person applies it will be different from how another will apply, due to a variety of factors, size, physical ability, skill set ability, understanding, intent, interest level and intensity while training, why do they train...so it won't look the same between two different ppl, generally anyways, boxers sort of look alike, but all of them have their personal style as to how to deliver their tools to the target, Ali didn't look like Frazier, but both threw jabs, crosses, hooks, upper cuts.. the only time two ppl will look alike is if they do WC like a style, which IMO is like fighting like a robot!

James

[Phil Redmond]

A person can be really good at Chi Sao but can't fight their way out of a wet paper bag. Chi Sao is simply a sensitivity drill, nothing more.

[YouKnowWho]

A person can be really good at Chi Sao but can't fight their way out of a wet paper bag. Chi Sao is simply a sensitivity drill, nothing more.

Chi Shou + grappling can be quite powerful.

The 摊手(Tan Shou) is the same as

- 褂 Gua,
- comb the hair,
- arm wrapping.

You can use it to

- wrap your opponent's arm,
- get him into over hook,
- get him into a head lock.

The "扶手(Fu Shou)" is the same as

- mantis arm,
- single collar tie, or
- upper lapel grip.

If you use your "left 摊手 (Tan Shou)" to wrap your opponent's right arm, use your right "扶手(Fu Shou)" to control his neck, a "云(Yun) - clockwise twisting, followed by a counter-clocking twisting" can set up almost any throw that you want to apply. The grappling door is open right there. All you need is just to walk through it.

For a pure striking art, you may not need sticky hands, For a pure grappling art, you definitely need sticky hands.

[sihing]

A person can be really good at Chi Sao but can't fight their way out of a wet paper bag. Chi Sao is simply a sensitivity drill, nothing more.

Hi Phil,

I agree that if all you do is chi sau you will not learn how to fight, not necessarily. You will learn something, as it is better to do just chi sau than sit on the couch...but for me anyways chi sau is much more than sensitivity.

I need fok sau to learn tan sau. By learn I mean my body has to know how to do it right, it has to connect all the joints, and relax the shoulder/forearm enough to let the power come from the grounded support thru the tan, for that to happen I need fok sau, doing the samething I am (tan is outside forearm engagement, fok is inside arm engagement when there is bridge contact, if there isn't one just hits). We learn via pressure vs pressure, it forges our structure and allows us to build it up right like a foundation of a building. Sensitivity is like the 4 or 5th attribute gained via chi sau IMO, it's a sub set skill..

How are we to learn how to sit our weight, learn how to use our bodies so it has power, balance, mobility, if there is no pressure applied to it via the prolonged contact drills like chi sau or pushing hands for tai chi? You can practice in the air all you want, but when pressure is applied to your body and frame, it may break down and crumble, so we use pressure to make the frame strong, and connected, and to also train aim and centerline/COM awareness (within ourselves and our opponents)..I've was taught that VT structure is like a car that has been designed to handle a crash, it breaks down in stages and steps so that the passengers are protected as best as possible, this is the same for our VT, it collapses as needed (this is where sensitivity comes in..), and re adjusts our line of attack to take advantage of any openings and holes in an opponents defense, as best we can anyways, if no collapse is needed, we blast thru (lat sau jik chung):)

If all you have is sensitivity via chi sau, but no aim, no power, no balance, no recover, no facing, then what good is the drill?

James

[BPWT.]

Well on Obassi's facebook page
@jamie
i can live with it, because there are everywhere these kind of idiots... in all lineages... but just for the info again: kevin did very bad! also because he did so many years wingchun than gone to philipp and in that 7 years he saw philipp bayer 2 times!!! 2!!!

I dont think, that shawn respects philipp anymore, but i know the next time when he touch hands with philipp, then philipp will show him giving 100%... maybe that will change shawns mind, and not a pbvt rookie that claimed himself as THE MAN in us forums... and this is not fanboy trash... To be honest, shawn is maybe a good guy but he´s now completely wrong with his thinking of his skilllevel. I also said, "come to germany i show you many guys, that will show you, you´re far away from philipp" by the way philipp also was very angry with kevin because of his skill level and talking about other lineages... because he also always says no one is untouchable and wong shun leung sigung always said, if you fight, you will get hit. regards :)

Interesting, if accurate. :eek:

[Ali. R]

A person can be really good at Chi Sao but can't fight their way out of a wet paper bag. Chi Sao is simply a sensitivity drill, nothing more.


It’s a lot of misconceptions on ‘Chi Sao’: size, height, weight, and strength as nothing to do with it, just like when you fight in the streets. There is no such thing as the tale of the tapes. It’s all based on one’s level of resolve (courage and fine tune disciplined within his/her art). If he/she does well in ‘Ch Sao’ and can’t fight, then he/she was never a fighter to begin with.

But for the trained eye, watching good ‘Chi Sao’ would tell the hold story (timing, positioning, body unity and power) when topped with a strong resolve could be devastating. Now if your ‘Chi Sao’ is poor, it will be a very strong chance that your wing chun fighting will be as well, but that may not be the case with ones resolve or determination.


Take care,

[KPM]

What should be clear to anyone who watches the clip with an unbiased eye, is that Kevin didn't make an attempt to apply his method. To criticize it is an obvious stretch to find something to throw back at Kevin for his critical words of your lineages. That's the real bottom line, I think. Keep in mind, I haven't met Kevin, haven't met Philipp, and don't train PBVT lineage.

To quote the man of the hour...."whatever dude!" :rolleyes: I think you're full of it.

[Frost]

Completely agree! I've seen too many schools, even in the heartland, HK, that only work on forms for a bit and then endless hours of chi-sau and seemingly never actually spar- even amongst themselves. Chi-sau can be said to be the 'heart' of wing chun, but addiction to it will lead to a fatal heart attack in the real!

Its amazing I have been on this forum now for about 10 years as a reader and then member, and in that time I have watched nearly every member say thy recognise this problem with wing chun, but assure everyone who will listen that they train differently and as such can make this simple direct system work, but of course cant post any clips of them or their lineage actually doing this, we just have to trust their word that they are doing the sparring etc and as a result can it work against other systems
And when we do finally see clips from the majority of people they look like what kevin posted……strange that

[Paddington]

[...] by the way philipp also was very angry with kevin because of his skill level and talking about other lineages... because he also always says no one is untouchable and wong shun leung sigung always said, if you fight, you will get hit. regards :)

I hope Kev takes note.

[Graham H]

Some people never learn.
I guess we all learnt that you're tough talking and BS only works on forums not outside the internet :)

Mmmm. Tough talking on the internet eh? My BS only works on forums? Ok, if you think that. No problem.

I tend not post on the forums anymore because I think it is futile. Until two people meet nobody can say anything about each others Wing Chun. I have never rubbished anybody's fighting skills. I have only questioned peoples ideas if they don't make sense to me and yes I have also pushed those ideas too far.

IMO Philipp Bayers ideas on Ving Tsun are second to none. I think using his ideas in the context of Ving Tsun is better for people than most of the esoteric fancy flip flop nonsense that is out there today. I have come to realize, however, that maybe that was a foolish thing to say as some people cannot make even the simplest ideas work for them. Instead they look to add other ideas which is fine if it improves their overall fighting ability. In fact as we are all different it is ok to have other ideas even of they are conflicting with each other. Nobodies "way" is perfect! We as people are far from perfect.

Philipp is very competent at Wing Chun. In fact he is the best I have seen by a huge margin. That does not mean to say that all his students will be great or even good. I personally try my best to improve my own Wing Chun. Posting on the internet and arguing with people does nothing for the individual or the system. We are all practically in the same position and we are also all guilty of getting involved in some sorts of flame wars and bickering. Some more than others.

As for the Obassi clip I think it was not good for either guy or Wing Chun. Rather than speculate its better to leave it there. What is the point in fighting with each other about it? What is the point of rubbishing PBVT or even Obassi VT? It's between Shawn and Kevin and in many aspects we can all learn lessons from it.

The important thing is that we all take care of ourselves and continue to do what we enjoy.

I personally think posting on the www about VT does more harm than good so I prefer to opt out now. I can continue to research my nonsense in peace :)

[Graham H]

BTW my statement about most of you being idiots was wrong but I do think all this arguing about a youtube clip is still idiotic. It achieves nothing for anybody.

Kev was wrong, Shawn was wrong, we all are wrong. Who cares?

[BPWT.]

Mmmm. Tough talking on the internet eh? My BS only works on forums? Ok, if you think that. No problem.

I tend not post on the forums anymore because I think it is futile. Until two people meet nobody can say anything about each others Wing Chun. I have never rubbished anybody's fighting skills. I have only questioned peoples ideas if they don't make sense to me and yes I have also pushed those ideas too far.

IMO Philipp Bayers ideas on Ving Tsun are second to none. I think using his ideas in the context of Ving Tsun is better for people than most of the esoteric fancy flip flop nonsense that is out there today. I have come to realize, however, that maybe that was a foolish thing to say as some people cannot make even the simplest ideas work for them. Instead they look to add other ideas which is fine if it improves their overall fighting ability. In fact as we are all different it is ok to have other ideas even of they are conflicting with each other. Nobodies "way" is perfect! We as people are far from perfect.

Philipp is very competent at Wing Chun. In fact he is the best I have seen by a huge margin. That does not mean to say that all his students will be great or even good. I personally try my best to improve my own Wing Chun. Posting on the internet and arguing with people does nothing for the individual or the system. We are all practically in the same position and we are also all guilty of getting involved in some sorts of flame wars and bickering. Some more than others.

As for the Obassi clip I think it was not good for either guy or Wing Chun. Rather than speculate its better to leave it there. What is the point in fighting with each other about it? What is the point of rubbishing PBVT or even Obassi VT? It's between Shawn and Kevin and in many aspects we can all learn lessons from it.

The important thing is that we all take care of ourselves and continue to do what we enjoy.

I personally think posting on the www about VT does more harm than good so I prefer to opt out now. I can continue to research my nonsense in peace :)

Probably the best and most honest post I've read from you.

The only sad thing in all of this, is that if PB is indeed unhappy with what he's seen/read from Kevin then it is likely that we'll have very few posts (if any) from the PBVT guys in the future. Which is a shame - when we're not all arguing (I'm as guilty as the next man) it's interesting to hear about others and how they approach and teach the system (regardless of lineage - or perhaps because of different lineage).

[KPM]

Mmmm. Tough talking on the internet eh? My BS only works on forums? Ok, if you think that. No problem.

I tend not post on the forums anymore because I think it is futile. Until two people meet nobody can say anything about each others Wing Chun. I have never rubbished anybody's fighting skills. I have only questioned peoples ideas if they don't make sense to me and yes I have also pushed those ideas too far.

IMO Philipp Bayers ideas on Ving Tsun are second to none. I think using his ideas in the context of Ving Tsun is better for people than most of the esoteric fancy flip flop nonsense that is out there today. I have come to realize, however, that maybe that was a foolish thing to say as some people cannot make even the simplest ideas work for them. Instead they look to add other ideas which is fine if it improves their overall fighting ability. In fact as we are all different it is ok to have other ideas even of they are conflicting with each other. Nobodies "way" is perfect! We as people are far from perfect.

Philipp is very competent at Wing Chun. In fact he is the best I have seen by a huge margin. That does not mean to say that all his students will be great or even good. I personally try my best to improve my own Wing Chun. Posting on the internet and arguing with people does nothing for the individual or the system. We are all practically in the same position and we are also all guilty of getting involved in some sorts of flame wars and bickering. Some more than others.

As for the Obassi clip I think it was not good for either guy or Wing Chun. Rather than speculate its better to leave it there. What is the point in fighting with each other about it? What is the point of rubbishing PBVT or even Obassi VT? It's between Shawn and Kevin and in many aspects we can all learn lessons from it.

The important thing is that we all take care of ourselves and continue to do what we enjoy.

I personally think posting on the www about VT does more harm than good so I prefer to opt out now. I can continue to research my nonsense in peace :)

+1 That was a good post Graham. Too bad we don't see that side of you more often! ;)

[Graham H]

Probably the best and most honest post I've read from you.

The only sad thing in all of this, is that if PB is indeed unhappy with what he's seen/read from Kevin then it is likely that we'll have very few posts (if any) from the PBVT guys in the future. Which is a shame - when we're not all arguing (I'm as guilty as the next man) it's interesting to hear about others and how they approach and teach the system (regardless of lineage - or perhaps because of different lineage).

I have no problem with getting involved in productive discussions. Historically that never happens on WC forums. Not just this one. All of them. There are so many conflicting ideas that a soon as one guy says one thing another will say another then the whole "I shared a bed with Yip Man so I know best" argument comes into play.

Everybody knows that the ideas we have in our lineage differ greatly from many other lineages of Wing Chun. We don't advocate the whole "sticky" idea so if 99 guys are saying yes and one says no which will be the one who gets attacked? It's always the minority.

Our approach to Wing Chun has been dissected many times on this forum usually during arguments and we are no further into Utopia than we were 5 years ago. Its the nature of the beast unfortunately. My personal approach is that if I hear or see something I want to know more about I go and see for myself and make my own decisions based on hands on experience. For me that is 100 times better than trying to figure it out via text.

[Graham H]

+1 That was a good post Graham. Too bad we don't see that side of you more often! ;)

Wing Chun/Ving Tsun is a funny world and in order to progress in it we must become aware of our mistakes then try correct them. No biggie but thanks anyway.

[Kaybee]

Good statements, Graham! :) Nothing more to add.

[LFJ]

Its amazing I have been on this forum now for about 10 years as a reader and then member, and in that time I have watched nearly every member say thy recognise this problem with wing chun, but assure everyone who will listen that they train differently and as such can make this simple direct system work, but of course cant post any clips of them or their lineage actually doing this, we just have to trust their word that they are doing the sparring etc and as a result can it work against other systems
And when we do finally see clips from the majority of people they look like what kevin posted……strange that

So?

I believe I have explained to you before;

That is not a problem for me as it has no consequence on the efficacy of my personal training. My training is validated by my efforts and experience alone, not whether there is good video footage of someone else to be seen somewhere nor by obtaining the approval of random viewers on the internet.

If you can't understand and relate to that point and keep bringing this up in every other post you make, I can't imagine much of your time in these last 10 years has been spent training.

[Frost]

So?

I believe I have explained to you before;

That is not a problem for me as it has no consequence on the efficacy of my personal training. My training is validated by my efforts and experience alone, not whether there is good video footage of someone else to be seen somewhere nor by obtaining the approval of random viewers on the internet.

If you can't understand and relate to that point and keep bringing this up in every other post you make, I can't imagine much of your time in these last 10 years has been spent training.

so your defending the indefensible (something kevins teacher and mates on this forum can't bring themselves to do) has nothing to do with your defending the wsl lineage then and thus validate your own training... ok ....:rolleyes:

[LFJ]

so your defending the indefensible (something kevins teacher and mates on this forum can't bring themselves to do) has nothing to do with your defending the wsl lineage then and thus validate your own training... ok ....:rolleyes:

What? .....

[sanjuro_ronin]

I think this is one of those cases ( again) where someone was very "vocal" about how their MA ( in this case WC) was so much better than anyone else's and how ( once again) video evidence showed that is not the case.

[Frost]

I think this is one of those cases ( again) where someone was very "vocal" about how their MA ( in this case WC) was so much better than anyone else's and how ( once again) video evidence showed that is not the case.

where were you 13 pages ago lol....:)

[sanjuro_ronin]

where were you 13 pages ago lol....:)

It's not a slight on Kevin ( though it can be argued that he deserves it) it is simply a statement of fact.
Anyone's MA is ONLY as good as the people it is trained against.
This doesn't mean that Kevin doesn't train with good people, it simply means that because He was used to "A", when he got exposed to "B", he didn't have the tools to address it.

[slick69]

I think this is one of those cases ( again) where someone was very "vocal" about how their MA ( in this case WC) was so much better than anyone else's and how ( once again) video evidence showed that is not the case.

Best comment on thread. I hope this leads to more constructive debate on this forum. Realistically most people would struggle to handle Obassi, he is an MMA fighter and 245lb muscular person. I think when you spend so much time bashing other linages you start to believe you own hype and not learn from others...

[sanjuro_ronin]

Best comment on thread. I hope this leads to more constructive debate on this forum. Realistically most people would struggle to handle Obassi, he is an MMA fighter and 245lb muscular person. I think when you spend so much time bashing other linages you start to believe you own hype and not learn from others...

Indeed.
I do NOT think that I would be able to handle Shawn in a chi sao match, or in any match probably,
He is big and strong and knows how to fight ( a very tough combination to overcome).
I think that I most certainly would NOT play his game BUT to what degree of effectiveness I would be able to impose myself on him is simply unknown.
Only "armchair fighters" make comments like " I would do this" or "I can beat that guy based on what I see", about a professional fighter.

[Frost]

Indeed.
I do NOT think that I would be able to handle Shawn in a chi sao match, or in any match probably,
He is big and strong and knows how to fight ( a very tough combination to overcome).
I think that I most certainly would NOT play his game BUT to what degree of effectiveness I would be able to impose myself on him is simply unknown.
Only "armchair fighters" make comments like " I would do this" or "I can beat that guy based on what I see", about a professional fighter.

and yet people on this very thread have done just that, anyone who has spent time around fighters knows not to judge how they look in a fight, but judge the outcome, they also know even amateurs are on a much higher plain in terms of skills and abilities than most class atendees, people saying they would have escalated it with this guy, or would have hit him when he was overextended etc really should try that with someone that big who has a track record of fighting full contact, somehow I doubt they would do better than Kevin or would be so ready to escalate with someone like that in front of them..

[slick69]

and yet people on this very thread have done just that, anyone who has spent time around fighters knows not to judge how they look in a fight, but judge the outcome, they also know even amateurs are on a much higher plain in terms of skills and abilities than most class atendees, people saying they would have escalated it with this guy, or would have hit him when he was overextended etc really should try that with someone that big who has a track record of fighting full contact, somehow I doubt they would do better than Kevin or would be so ready to escalate with someone like that in front of them..

This is the danger of Kevin bashing other linages approach and my Wing Chun can defeat all logic. They start to believe their own hype and but themselves and their students in danger. Kevin had no business trying to fight a heavy weight MMA fighter.

[jimhalliwell]

FWIW

I certainly don't believe Kev has had two lessons from PB before teaching for him?
Do you honestly think that PB would do that? I don't know but it would be great to hear PB himself on the matter. I haven't got a clue what the answer is but I certainly wont be changing my linage which is WSL on the strength of a short video which indeed to me looked crap! totally crap! and I have been trying to get PB to my school for years in the UK but keep being pointed to senior students in the Uk none of whom I want to see! and if he wants to show us his stuff he is of course welcome for I personally have met the guy and done some chi sau with him for a very short time and respect him a lot. If he did decide to visit your all welcome. But for now I would welcome some comments from PB at this stage as the Kev flogging continues.

Jim.

[LFJ]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9_3F6Zwbp9E
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tonwiZLXOto

Obasi failed an MMA tryout where he fell on his ass just trying to do a round kick on a pad. He complained it's because he's a "wing chun man", but he has no personal teacher and just uses strength to arm-struggle in chi-sau where in this clip with Kevin he was also overextended and off balance throughout, even though Kevin wasn't even doing anything. Not a good record against inanimate objects!

The only thing he's really got going for him is his size and strength. If that makes you all think he's an elite, because he's been in a couple amateur fights against crap competition, and suffered a GnP in his pro debut, okay, y'all are easily impressed and intimidated, but I think he needs to find a good coach to guide him and make something of his potential and ambition. If he remains a "wing chun ronin" his record isn't going to improve.

[Grumblegeezer]

FWIW

I certainly don't believe Kev has had two lessons from PB before teaching for him?
Do you honestly think that PB would do that? I don't know but it would be great to hear PB himself on the matter. I haven't got a clue what the answer is but I certainly wont be changing my linage which is WSL on the strength of a short video which indeed to me looked crap! totally crap! and I have been trying to get PB to my school for years in the UK but keep being pointed to senior students in the Uk none of whom I want to see! and if he wants to show us his stuff he is of course welcome for I personally have met the guy and done some chi sau with him for a very short time and respect him a lot. If he did decide to visit your all welcome. But for now I would welcome some comments from PB at this stage as the Kev flogging continues.

Jim.

Good lord man! You practice PB/WSLVT. You live in the UK. It's a short hop to Germany. You can even freakin' drive there from what I hear. And you can't get over there to train with the top guy? What gives?

Now as for the "Kev flogging" ... most people aren't bashing him for having trouble trying to do Chi Sao with an uncooperative Shawn Obasi. They are giving jabs for his holier-than-thou hypocracy expressed over a period of years on this forum.

And as many have noted, it's not just Kevin and the PBVT guys. Too many WC/VT people tend to have the same problem. If more WC people had a little humility and were able to admit that they didn't have all the answers, we'd be a lot better received in the MA community.

[jimhalliwell]

Good lord man! You practice PB/WSLVT. You live in the UK. It's a short hop to Germany. You can even freakin' drive there from what I hear. And you can't get over there to train with the top guy? What gives?

Now as for the "Kev flogging" ... most people aren't bashing him for having trouble trying to do Chi Sao with an uncooperative Shawn Obasi. They are giving jabs for his holier-than-thou hypocracy expressed over a period of years on this forum.

And as many have noted, it's not just Kevin and the PBVT guys. Too many WC/VT people tend to have the same problem. If more WC people had a little humility and were able to admit that they didn't have all the answers, we'd be a lot better received in the MA community.

Good Lord man! I have been to Germany and trained but not with him!
I'm saying there are plenty of people who would like to see him here that's all! and I am certainly not rocking up to his place with 20 guys!

thanks for the advice anyway!

Jim

[KPM]

. Kevin had no business trying to fight a heavy weight MMA fighter.

He didn't try to fight, or even adequately defend! Haven't you been reading this thread? ;-)

[sanjuro_ronin]

and yet people on this very thread have done just that, anyone who has spent time around fighters knows not to judge how they look in a fight, but judge the outcome, they also know even amateurs are on a much higher plain in terms of skills and abilities than most class atendees, people saying they would have escalated it with this guy, or would have hit him when he was overextended etc really should try that with someone that big who has a track record of fighting full contact, somehow I doubt they would do better than Kevin or would be so ready to escalate with someone like that in front of them..

People can SAY whatever they want.
We are seeing the fruits of when they actually try to DO.

[sanjuro_ronin]

FWIW

I certainly don't believe Kev has had two lessons from PB before teaching for him?
Do you honestly think that PB would do that? I don't know but it would be great to hear PB himself on the matter. I haven't got a clue what the answer is but I certainly wont be changing my linage which is WSL on the strength of a short video which indeed to me looked crap! totally crap! and I have been trying to get PB to my school for years in the UK but keep being pointed to senior students in the Uk none of whom I want to see! and if he wants to show us his stuff he is of course welcome for I personally have met the guy and done some chi sau with him for a very short time and respect him a lot. If he did decide to visit your all welcome. But for now I would welcome some comments from PB at this stage as the Kev flogging continues.

Jim.

There is actually NO REASON to believe that Sifu Bayer would be able to do any better against Shawn, or any worse for that matter.
There is no reason to believe any possible outcome without actually seeing them VS each other.
That is kind of the point of this thread ( or at least how it is straining to run) and that is that NO ONE can make a call on how they or ANYONE else would fair against a trained fighter.
It is just pointless to do that.

I have seen clips of Sifu Bayer and he certainly knows HIS WC and Chi sao, but what was going on in that clip was NOT HIS WC/Chi sao.

To state that Sifu Bayer would be able to handle Shawn is ridiculous unless a person has seen him do just that OR at the VERY LEAST handle someone like Shawn in THOSE conditions ( fully resisting).

[slick69]

He didn't try to fight, or even adequately defend! Haven't you been reading this thread? ;-)

Whatever it was, it was started by his online bashing or someone else's skills. No good can come from that behaviour.

[sanjuro_ronin]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9_3F6Zwbp9E
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tonwiZLXOto

Obasi failed an MMA tryout where he fell on his ass just trying to do a round kick on a pad. He complained it's because he's a "wing chun man", but he has no personal teacher and just uses strength to arm-struggle in chi-sau where in this clip with Kevin he was also overextended and off balance throughout, even though Kevin wasn't even doing anything. Not a good record against inanimate objects!

The only thing he's really got going for him is his size and strength. If that makes you all think he's an elite, because he's been in a couple amateur fights against crap competition, and suffered a GnP in his pro debut, okay, y'all are easily impressed and intimidated, but I think he needs to find a good coach to guide him and make something of his potential and ambition. If he remains a "wing chun ronin" his record isn't going to improve.

Who said that he was elite?
I don't think he even has a winning record in MMA.
That just makes Kevin look worse by the way.
The point is that when you are used to doing anything ( in this case Chi sao) a certain way and then someone takes you out of your comfort zone, chaos tends to happen and this video is an example of that.

[YouKnowWho]

He was used to "A", when he got exposed to "B", he didn't have the tools to address it.

This is why it's important to spar/wrestle with guys who does not come from your system. As long as you and your opponent can both agree with the rules, you should be able to spar/wrestle with anybody from any style.

Assume that we don't talk about style here, what's the "common sense" method to stop a guy who keeps rushing in toward you?

- A 45 degree downward haymaker to the side of the head, or
- a front kick to the chest/belly should do the job.
- ...

The solution to "B" is what everybody will need to train for the rest of his life. What can be more realistic when someone tries to rush in and tries to knock your head off?


when you are used to doing anything ( in this case Chi sao) a certain way and then someone takes you out of your comfort zone, chaos tends to happen and this video is an example of that.

IMO, the "stick hands" has more value in the grappling art than in the striking art. It's just too easy to "dis-connect that bridge" in a pure striking game.

Sometime I just wonder, why the

- WC sticky hands will always turn into boxing game, and
- Taiji push hands will always turn into wrestling game?

[LFJ]

Who said that he was elite?
I don't think he even has a winning record in MMA.
That just makes Kevin look worse by the way.
The point is that when you are used to doing anything ( in this case Chi sao) a certain way and then someone takes you out of your comfort zone, chaos tends to happen and this video is an example of that.

I agree. That's why, once again, I don't chi-sau outside of my lineage and insist on going straight to sparring. Of course free sparring must be a part of your training anyway, if you're going to do anything outside of drills.

[Paddington]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9_3F6Zwbp9E
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tonwiZLXOto

Obasi failed an MMA tryout where he fell on his ass just trying to do a round kick on a pad. He complained it's because he's a "wing chun man", but he has no personal teacher and just uses strength to arm-struggle in chi-sau where in this clip with Kevin he was also overextended and off balance throughout, even though Kevin wasn't even doing anything. Not a good record against inanimate objects!

The only thing he's really got going for him is his size and strength. If that makes you all think he's an elite, because he's been in a couple amateur fights against crap competition, and suffered a GnP in his pro debut, okay, y'all are easily impressed and intimidated, but I think he needs to find a good coach to guide him and make something of his potential and ambition. If he remains a "wing chun ronin" his record isn't going to improve.

I don't think it is fair to post that video as a prop in this debate LFJ. Around that time I was in conversation with Obasi via the youtube personal messaging system. He was with, if memory serves, Grados at the time. Shawn was, IMO, a bit more arrogant back then but learned, like most of us do and will continue to do, the hard way. I think I was telling him that Grados was not the only Sifu on the block and that he should visit other Sifus who had more 'experience' and see just what was out there. I don't think I was the only one that told him this. We all need good coaches and guidance just sometimes it takes a while to find a training partnership that both parties feel will work and be fruitful.

[sihing]

There is actually NO REASON to believe that Sifu Bayer would be able to do any better against Shawn, or any worse for that matter.
There is no reason to believe any possible outcome without actually seeing them VS each other.
That is kind of the point of this thread ( or at least how it is straining to run) and that is that NO ONE can make a call on how they or ANYONE else would fair against a trained fighter.
It is just pointless to do that.

I have seen clips of Sifu Bayer and he certainly knows HIS WC and Chi sao, but what was going on in that clip was NOT HIS WC/Chi sao.

To state that Sifu Bayer would be able to handle Shawn is ridiculous unless a person has seen him do just that OR at the VERY LEAST handle someone like Shawn in THOSE conditions ( fully resisting).

This is a good way to look at, assumptions can get you killed.

I think the problem in the video lies in how you define chi sau and what it entails, I think both of them may have different ideas, as Kevin said at the end of the vid, "That's not chi sau", for him it isn't, for me too, for Shawn it may be.

Also, this issue about "Fighting" and being a "Fighter", these have nothing to do IMO with WC/VT, how can it, or how can it relate to any Martial Art, are they not all about development. If MA was not about developing something within the person that they didn't have before, there would be no MA in the world today, as ppl would fight as their training method? Why do kata or form, why do mok jong or long pole, why do bag work, skipping, why lift weights, stretch, why do anything that is not actual fighting? We do these things to indirectly help it along, not necessarily to fight, because for me this has nothing to do with "Fighting", I just do these things b/c first I like it, it's enjoyable (lifting isn't much, but I enjoy the health affect..), 2nd it's fun, training in VT is fun, interesting, and it helps me keep focus and mental intent.

Now for me, if someone if Fully resisting while in chi sau posture/positions then it's not Chi sau anymore, as anyone can resist it, tense up the muscles and form a shell around them so nothing gets in, but that is never the point of chi sau, to score a hit or defeat, wrong intent IMO, but to work together to gain a skill set you didn't have or were unaware of before, the working together part can get more and more intense and involve more and more challenges, but its not a fight or a comp, it's still in a way cooperative, like a boxing trainer doing pad work to bring something out with his fighter..

James

[Wu Wei Wu]

Expertise tends only to exist within the parameters of ones own domain. When an expert comes across seeming randomized stimuli, they respond in the same ways a novice would, (because they lack the skill to decipher the cluster of cues effectively enough to respond).

In my opinion, to assume everyone will move in accordance with your own insular view of reality is ego-attachment to your own paradigm of belief.

suki

[slick69]

I agree. That's why, once again, I don't chi-sau outside of my lineage and insist on going straight to sparring. Of course free sparring must be a part of your training anyway, if you're going to do anything outside of drills.

So you would spar with old men like Sanuel Kwok & Ip Chun? Stop making excuses for not being able to chi-sau...

[Sihing73]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AWxxd5ZIDfA

[LFJ]

So you would spar with old men like Sanuel Kwok & Ip Chun? Stop making excuses for not being able to chi-sau...

I wouldn't do anything with them. Waste of time.

[BPWT.]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AWxxd5ZIDfA

Much better example of someone using their system to handle the situation - and he was in good control of the attempted knee from Obasi (who, also, looks in great shape in this clip - big guy! :eek:)

[slick69]

I wouldn't do anything with them. Waste of time.

So what is your linage? Would you have not bother with Ip Man us his later days?

[LFJ]

So what is your linage? Would you have not bother with Ip Man us his later days?

WSLVT. Training with an elderly Yip Man- not a waste of time.

[Buddha_Fist]

Much better example of someone using their system to handle the situation - and he was in good control of the attempted knee from Obasi (who, also, looks in great shape in this clip - big guy! :eek:)

Apples to oranges. Obassi's output is completely different. In the vid with Kevin, his emotions get the better of him and he grabs on hard to Kevin's arms pushing so much with his upper body that he is out of balance and his strikes have no ground support, they are more like slaps. The situation is quite chaotic. In this other vid, he maintains composure and thus doesn't lose balance and ground support, actions are cleaner and crisper even though he uses similar hand actions. He also doesn't follow through in his actions as in the video with Kevin. It seems like he is more focused on actually using Chisao for training instead of using it as a strange proxy for a fight.

What throws me off is when the different Obassi videos are thrown out there to draw conclusions on the people he is working out with. You have the videos where Obassi is proactive; in some of the he loses it to different degrees to his emotions (Randy, Kevin), and in others he actually tries to work out. Then in others he is completely reactive; he is completely tame and even appears afraid of stepping it up against the bigger and stronger Emin while with Philipp he seems completely focused on learning. So for sure a bad comparison.

[BPWT.]

@ Buddha_Fist

Yes, I think comparing Kevin/Obasi to PB/Obasi and to Emin/Obasi is apples and oranges (with PB and EB it was clearly cooperative and learning-based).

But comparing Kevin/Obasi to the TWC Guy/Obasi is more... oranges and tangerines. There the intensity is different - but in both of these cases it is free-flowing, resisting and testing. With the TWC Guy you could clearly see he was responding with what he trains, with Kevin you couldn't.

[Buddha_Fist]

Attitude, intensity, and follow-through make a world of difference. No tangerine there. I can work out with you focused on training or trying to rip your head off, you will feel the difference.

[jimhalliwell]

There is actually NO REASON to believe that Sifu Bayer would be able to do any better against Shawn, or any worse for that matter.
There is no reason to believe any possible outcome without actually seeing them VS each other.
That is kind of the point of this thread ( or at least how it is straining to run) and that is that NO ONE can make a call on how they or ANYONE else would fair against a trained fighter.
It is just pointless to do that.

I have seen clips of Sifu Bayer and he certainly knows HIS WC and Chi sao, but what was going on in that clip was NOT HIS WC/Chi sao.

To state that Sifu Bayer would be able to handle Shawn is ridiculous unless a person has seen him do just that OR at the VERY LEAST handle someone like Shawn in THOSE conditions ( fully resisting).


Who was actually saying PB would do any better in the first place or have I actually missed that?

Jim.

[Wayfaring]

Apples to oranges. Obassi's output is completely different. In the vid with Kevin, his emotions get the better of him and he grabs on hard to Kevin's arms pushing so much with his upper body that he is out of balance and his strikes have no ground support, they are more like slaps. The situation is quite chaotic. In this other vid, he maintains composure and thus doesn't lose balance and ground support, actions are cleaner and crisper even though he uses similar hand actions. He also doesn't follow through in his actions as in the video with Kevin. It seems like he is more focused on actually using Chisao for training instead of using it as a strange proxy for a fight.


You think you are talking about two people here and you are, but this illustrates a bigger problem. Chi Sau, while it has many varying definitions among the families posting here, almost 100% agree is not meant to be played the way it was in the video. It's meant to be more "playful" and cooperative, where people can maintain structure, balance, etc. and exchange energies and train for what you do with energies on the bridge.

However, as things escalate from a more cooperative drill to a fully resistant partner, things get more out of control, less defined, and actions are performed more out at the end of people's abilities rather than contained well within them. it seems that chi sau really isn't applicable there, regardless of your interpretation of the definition. and what we see the vast majority of the time in video is that when that threshold is crossed people become ineffective.

This is not good. To me it's not that the art and concepts are no good, it's that people hardly ever practice them crossing that threshold between cooperative and non-cooperative. Why not? They think what they are doing is "good enough" for developing fight skills. They think doing forms and chi sau is good enough to learn how to fight. most other martial arts draw the distinction very clearly between the learning side of the skill and the fighting side of the skill. Like judo - uke / tori are the descriptions of the people involved learning the technique. uke is non-resistant or can work up to being semi-resistant. randori is the application of the technique in a resistant environment. this is built into the core fabric of training. I think people in WCK "try" to do this with the "Chi Sau/ Gor Sau" descriptions where the first is compliant and the latter is non-compliant. But from what I see those terms are very blurry, not universal at all, and don't have a standard, whereas in judo they are clearly defined, universal, and standard based.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Who was actually saying PB would do any better in the first place or have I actually missed that?

Jim.

I was just make a point that say A or B can beat C doesn't make any sense.

[BPWT.]

Attitude, intensity, and follow-through make a world of difference. No tangerine there. I can work out with you focused on training or trying to rip your head off, you will feel the difference.

Yes, it does make a difference, I agree. But this is why I say oranges and tangerines - the acid level is different :D but it's the same fruit - or fruit family ;) My point is that in both the Kevin and TWC case, it was Gor Sau. Tougher Gor Sau against Kevin for sure, but still Gor Sau for both. And in Kevin's case a guy with 30 years Wing Chun/Ving Tsun looked terrible. Proportionate to the higher level of intensity and follow-through? In my opinion, no.

That said, if it is true that Kevin has only met with PB twice, then it is not so surprising he was unable to show PBVT during the encounter (no one has posted to say this twice-in-seven-years is inaccurate - which is a little ominous).

With Obasi and Emin and Obasi and Bayer, it was not Gor Sau. Just rolling and then one guy showing things from there.



To me it's not that the art and concepts are no good, it's that people hardly ever practice them crossing that threshold between cooperative and non-cooperative. Why not? They think what they are doing is "good enough" for developing fight skills. They think doing forms and chi sau is good enough to learn how to fight. most other martial arts draw the distinction very clearly between the learning side of the skill and the fighting side of the skill. Like judo - uke / tori are the descriptions of the people involved learning the technique. uke is non-resistant or can work up to being semi-resistant. randori is the application of the technique in a resistant environment. this is built into the core fabric of training. I think people in WCK "try" to do this with the "Chi Sau/ Gor Sau" descriptions where the first is compliant and the latter is non-compliant. But from what I see those terms are very blurry, not universal at all, and don't have a standard, whereas in judo they are clearly defined, universal, and standard based.

It is true that there's no standard across lineages - but I don't exactly know how every lineage/group trains their Chi Sau.

For us we learn in sections first (done at a moderate pace and without much power); then the same sections done at a faster pace and with more power. Then we mix up elements within different sections so that we're playing by the same rules, but creating something a little less predictable - first at a moderate pace and without much power, then faster with power.

This is all separate from Gor Sau, which we do too. Again, first Gor Sau is light and we're not pushing too hard, just trying to make sure we deal with things well and while keeping good structure and position, correct use of the concepts and ideas (e.g. LLHS LSJC); then we train Gor Sau harder (more speed, more power). Tied in with this is our Lat Sau work - similar to all of the above, but starting from distance (not from contact as with Poon Sau).

The Chi Sau Sections, Gor Sau and to some extent Lat Sau (Gor Sau and Lat Sau boundaries kinda crossover) all really fall under the Chi Sau banner IMO.

This is separate from sparring, which we do too - but comes a little later, typically speaking. (we want to have a good grasp of the Chi Sau-related training before moving on to sparring)

But I'm pretty sure other WC/VT groups approach things differently.

[jimhalliwell]

I was just make a point that say A or B can beat C doesn't make any sense.


I totally agree


Jim:)

[Buddha_Fist]

Wayfaring: I agree with there not being any value in what is being done in the video of Kevin and Obassi.

Fact is that Kevin assumed that they were going to do a developmental drill, Chisao, while Obassi doesn't care about developing anything and uses the drill as a weird fight proxy (all because he thought he was insulted on the internet?). Kevin stops Chisao'ing after about half a minute or so into it and simply notes that it's not Chisao.

From there, it's crazy how people draw all sorts of weird conclusions and draw faulty analogies. No actual fight, but 11+ pages of talk. You only get this kind of crap in Wing Chun, and to be honest it is embarrassing. :mad:

I'm out.

[Jansingsang]

Wayfaring: I agree with there not being any value in what is being done in the video of Kevin and Obassi.

Fact is that Kevin assumed that they were going to do a developmental drill, Chisao, while Obassi doesn't care about developing anything and uses the drill as a weird fight proxy (all because he thought he was insulted on the internet?). Kevin stops Chisao'ing after about half a minute or so into it and simply notes that it's not Chisao.

From there, it's crazy how people draw all sorts of weird conclusions and draw faulty analogies. No actual fight, but 11+ pages of talk. You only get this kind of crap in Wing Chun, and to be honest it is embarrassing. :mad:

I'm out.

Agreed with your opinion .Few people making a mountain out of a mole hill. No one really knows the terms & conditions to this encounter accept the two party's involved Yes Kevin should have shut obassi down when it started getting twisted for this he has to pay the price of not being astute enough to detect foul play on the part of Obassi Come on now he even brought his own Cameraman, for crying out loud:D

[BPWT.]

Fact is that Kevin assumed that they were going to do a developmental drill, Chisao, while Obassi doesn't care about developing anything and uses the drill as a weird fight proxy (all because he thought he was insulted on the internet?).

Certainly it was a bit weird. I mean, challenges in Wing Chun are so... the 80s :D

That said, Gor Sau is part of Chi Sau training, and Gor Sau is developmental - it's used to test against an uncooperative partner - only within the usual parameters of Chi Sau.

I said it early in the thread, but if two people argue online and then they meet up to test each other... what was Kevin thinking they'd do? Compare SNT? :) As soon as you meet (two people from different groups) and you start rolling, then you play freely.


No actual fight, but 11+ pages of talk.

I think this is prompted by people having been exposed to 4,562,000 PBVT videos Kevin linked to, about 10 years of lineage insults from Kevin and now, finally, us having a thread that he can't delete. :D:D:D

[sanjuro_ronin]

I think this is prompted by people having been exposed to 4,562,000 PBVT videos Kevin linked to, about 10 years of lineage insults from Kevin and now, finally, us having a thread that he can't delete. :D:D:D


Pretty much.

You'd think that people would have learned from the mistake of others in the past.

[slick69]

Wayfaring: I agree with there not being any value in what is being done in the video of Kevin and Obassi.

Fact is that Kevin assumed that they were going to do a developmental drill, Chisao, while Obassi doesn't care about developing anything and uses the drill as a weird fight proxy (all because he thought he was insulted on the internet?). Kevin stops Chisao'ing after about half a minute or so into it and simply notes that it's not Chisao.

From there, it's crazy how people draw all sorts of weird conclusions and draw faulty analogies. No actual fight, but 11+ pages of talk. You only get this kind of crap in Wing Chun, and to be honest it is embarrassing. :mad:

I'm out.

Embarrasing? Kevin insulted Obassi's skill. They rolled hands. You can question Obassi's ability all you want, but he consistently was able to strike Kevin and Kevin could do nothing about it. This has been great for Wing Chun, we finally have people from different linages testing each other out...

[KPM]

I think this is prompted by people having been exposed to 4,562,000 PBVT videos Kevin linked to, about 10 years of lineage insults from Kevin and now, finally, us having a thread that he can't delete. :D:D:D

That and the fact that people seem to feel the need to keep apologizing for him or explaining away his poor performance. This thread should have died when the point was made pages ago. But LJF and others seem to keep it chugging along. :rolleyes: Of course it seems to be a slow time in the forum. Nothing else much to talk about. ;)

[dcrjradmonish]

What a challenge should look like just short of hard sparring or a real fight.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3qR3BRjRrBs&list=UUvOCrBqYhk4_7yYPsC8Q-3Q&feature=c4-overview

And how the aftermath should sound
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bd3gwnPzj5s&feature=c4-overview&list=UUyiwTfjvAgccC313SdYSNxg

[Phil Redmond]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AWxxd5ZIDfA
That's footage from when Shawn came by my NYC class. He was doing Chi Sao with my student Sifu Rahsun Herkul who now lives in L.A.

[LFJ]

I said it early in the thread, but if two people argue online and then they meet up to test each other... what was Kevin thinking they'd do? Compare SNT? :)

It really depends on what exactly they argued about. Do you even know?


You can question Obassi's ability all you want, but he consistently was able to strike Kevin and Kevin could do nothing about it.

I think we saw different videos. I didn't really see anything get through that I would call a strike. Maybe I wasn't watching closely enough?

[slick69]

It really depends on what exactly they argued about. Do you even know?



I think we saw different videos. I didn't really see anything get through that I would call a strike. Maybe I wasn't watching closely enough?

Kevin was being critical of others and Obassi asked him to back it up, Kev did his usual I can take on anyone approach.

I don't think you were watching closely enough. There are clear strikes to the face...

[thedreamer7]

That and the fact that people seem to feel the need to keep apologizing for him or explaining away his poor performance. This thread should have died when the point was made pages ago. But LJF and others seem to keep it chugging along. :rolleyes: Of course it seems to be a slow time in the forum. Nothing else much to talk about. ;)

The thread should really be a discussion on how to chi sau correctly against people more physically stronger than ourselves...

[KPM]

I think we saw different videos. I didn't really see anything get through that I would call a strike. Maybe I wasn't watching closely enough?


Yeah, you really need to go back and watch it again. Knee strike at 19 sec, a couple of palm strikes at 24, another knee at 25, a couple of Biu's to the neck at 30..... Now, I'm sure you'll argue that none of these had any power and weren't significant strikes. But by your own description, neither Obasi or Kevin were trying to kill each other. It should be clear to anyone watching (except maybe you) that Obasi could have dialed the intensity up another notch and any one of those would have been damaging. So rather than trying to continue to explain away Kevin's performance, how about we let this thread die a natural death? :rolleyes:

[Frost]

Is this thread still going?
Its not that hard to understand what went on, and whats going on here, Shaun has plenty of clips of himself chisaoing with others to know what you are going to get from him, Kevin simply wasn’t able to handle it
Obassi seems to have two modes when chi saoing, going hard when he feels he can because he is not scared of the other guy, and being complaint and nice with teachers he is respectful of and probably a little fearful of (like Emin).
With Kevin he seems to go a little harder than most, cant wonder why this is….. I mean its not like Kevin has a habit of getting people annoyed with all his talk of superior methods and the real VT…oh wait my bad….
And why is this thread so long? because a lot of people hitched themselves to the whole PB/WSL is superior and only got the real wing chun bandwagon kevin championed, so now they have two choices: either keep quiet and leave the thread alone or defend him (and thus by extension themselves and their views) to the hilt anyway they can.

[LFJ]

Yeah, you really need to go back and watch it again. Knee strike at 19 sec, a couple of palm strikes at 24, another knee at 25, a couple of Biu's to the neck at 30..... Now, I'm sure you'll argue that none of these had any power and weren't significant strikes. But by your own description, neither Obasi or Kevin were trying to kill each other. It should be clear to anyone watching (except maybe you) that Obasi could have dialed the intensity up another notch and any one of those would have been damaging. So rather than trying to continue to explain away Kevin's performance, how about we let this thread die a natural death? :rolleyes:

Well, I'll give him the knees although they weren't clean- rather awkward, and I don't know if those biu's, if that's what you call them, landed. But as for the "palm" at :24, just before that Kevin did a waang-jeung with clean full-body structure, although he pulled it. This made Obasi jerk his head back as he answered with an overreaching "slap" to the face with his head pulling back, arching his spine.

Comparing these two "palms" (if you want to include Obasi's slap in that definition), if the intensity were turned up, which one do you think would have been more damaging?

It might be argued that Obasi wouldn't strike the same way if the intensity were turned up, but chi-sau should use proper structure and not be a game of "tag" at any level of intensity. That tag nonsense really serves no practical purpose.

Throughout the clip Obasi was overextended and off balance, never really in a position to deliver a significant strike. The significance of any of his strikes would have been adversely affected by his chaotic postures. Kevin on the other hand was balanced and in position to deliver good strikes. He was just holding on and at the mercy of Obasi's chaotic movements. What he should have done is disengaged and started striking more, like than palm, but continually and while driving forward. That would have started to show some PBVT.

[KPM]

Well, I'll give him the knees although they weren't clean- rather awkward, and I don't know if those biu's, if that's what you call them, landed. But as for the "palm" at :24, just before that Kevin did a waang-jeung with clean full-body structure, although he pulled it. This made Obasi jerk his head back as he answered with an overreaching "slap" to the face with his head pulling back, arching his spine.

Comparing these two "palms" (if you want to include Obasi's slap in that definition), if the intensity were turned up, which one do you think would have been more damaging?

It might be argued that Obasi wouldn't strike the same way if the intensity were turned up, but chi-sau should use proper structure and not be a game of "tag" at any level of intensity. That tag nonsense really serves no practical purpose.

Throughout the clip Obasi was overextended and off balance, never really in a position to deliver a significant strike. The significance of any of his strikes would have been adversely affected by his chaotic postures. Kevin on the other hand was balanced and in position to deliver good strikes. He was just holding on and at the mercy of Obasi's chaotic movements. What he should have done is disengaged and started striking more, like than palm, but continually and while driving forward. That would have started to show some PBVT.

Whatever dude! :rolleyes: I agree with what Frost wrote above, and your opinion seems to be in a minority here. Either way, I think everyone has said their piece and this thing can end. If someone wants to start a thread on a specific Chi Sao topic related to what has been said, then I'm for it.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I think the issue is, when it came to chi sao:
Is it a cooperative drill?
If so HOW cooperative?
Is it a drill that, as you get better, becomes less and less cooperative?

Things like that.

I think that if subject A views Chi sao as a cooperative drill with limited strikes and subject B views it as basically a semi-freestyle drill where anything goes with control, then you have two very different worlds colliding when they meet.

[wtxs]

I think everyone has said their piece and this thing can end.

I 2nd, 3rd and 4th that motion. Can't keep up with making tons of popcorn and running out of beer ... following this thread had ruined my diet! :p

[Ali. R]

The thread should really be a discussion on how to chi sau correctly against people more physically stronger than ourselves...


I started looking around after reading your post and came up with this (http://youtu.be/AzNt_NVttoE). It was actually posted the same day of this thread.


Take care,

[Wayfaring]

Comparing these two "palms" (if you want to include Obasi's slap in that definition), if the intensity were turned up, which one do you think would have been more damaging?


Why is this thread still going? Because seeing two people ACTUALLY SPARRING LIVE in any fashion in WCK is such a rarity that it has caused such a disruption in the "force" that it has people predicting alternate future parallel universes.

:eek:

[YouKnowWho]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AzNt_NVttoE&feature=youtu.be

He made a good point in that clip. If you allow your opponent's arms to move however that he wants to, it's your mistake. So in WC sticky hands, since your are relax and allow your opponent to move his arms freely, you may just give too much freedom to your opponent's arms.

[Ali. R]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AzNt_NVttoE&feature=youtu.be

He made a good point in that clip. If you allow your opponent's arms to move however that he wants to, it's your mistake. So in WC sticky hands, since your are relax and allow your opponent to move his arms freely, you may just give too much freedom to your opponent's arms.


How to handle a big guy (http://youtu.be/C4oZ0SMffd8)…….


Take care,

[YouKnowWho]

I think it's more fun to discuss the WC sticky hands in nature than to talk about who beats whom in the WC community.

How will you train in WC stick hands that you allow your opponent to move his arms freely, but in combat you try not to allow your opponent to move his arms freely. Is that a contradiction? If we look at this from the opposite angle, should you try to eliminate your opponent's free arms movement ASAP? What kind of training drill can lead you there?

How to eliminate your opponent's arms freedom? Here is a good examples that you should "trap" your opponent's arms ASAP. He had used a lot of switch hands in this clip.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=obIJItdqkOw

[BPWT.]

How to handle a big guy (http://youtu.be/C4oZ0SMffd8)…….

Take care,


Loi Lau, Hoi Sung. :)

As someone said to me at a recent seminar, "All of Yip Man Wing Tsun [Wing Chun/Ving Tsun] is in just eight characters (LLHS, LSJC). :)

[Ali. R]

Loi Lau, Hoi Sung. :)

As someone said to me at a recent seminar, "All of Yip Man Wing Tsun [Wing Chun/Ving Tsun] is in just eight characters (LLHS, LSJC). :)


Exactly,,,, sink, snatch and drop them clean out their boots (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YH2RgRoiQ50&list=PL74AD0BAD4D62A11A&feature=share&index=5).


Take care,

[LFJ]

Why is this thread still going?

I reckon merely because the people in the video are known to us here and the type of arrogant lineage bashing that has gone on by one of the participants who didn't perform as well as their stories suggested they would. If it were just two random guys no one knew we'd all have a laugh and move on. There wouldn't be more than two or three comments on the thread just to say- no. Also because I've been playing devil's advocate to counter people going to the extreme- that Kevin just can't handle it. Without sufficient knowledge of the set up either case could appear to be true.


predicting alternate future parallel universes.

What are you talking about? My rhetorical question was meant to point out that touching someone in a chi-sau exchange means nothing if it is with such fncked up posture- head pulled back, spine arched, arm reaching and scoring a slap. At any degree of intensity good structure should be maintained. Kevin used a well structured palm strike although he pulled it. Just because Obasi's little slap landed doesn't make it better.

[Wayfaring]

I reckon merely because the people in the video are known to us here and the type of arrogant lineage bashing that has gone on by one of the participants who didn't perform as well as their stories suggested they would. If it were just two random guys no one knew we'd all have a laugh and move on. There wouldn't be more than two or three comments on the thread just to say- no. Also because I've been playing devil's advocate to counter people going to the extreme- that Kevin just can't handle it. Without sufficient knowledge of the set up either case could appear to be true.

Yeah pretty much all of us have picked up on the "pure water" attitude projected by many PBVT guys. So they brought much of this on themselves.



What are you talking about? My rhetorical question was meant to point out that touching someone in a chi-sau exchange means nothing if it is with such fncked up posture- head pulled back, spine arched, arm reaching and scoring a slap. At any degree of intensity good structure should be maintained. Kevin used a well structured palm strike although he pulled it. Just because Obasi's little slap landed doesn't make it better.

Yes that's the same point made in the video Ali posted. I liked that video. One of very few I've seen where the guy teaching has a sense of humor in WCK. His points are good, with the spaghetti arms stuff and the leaning. But very low level - like explaining the first fundamental concept of forward intent. And Obasi was doing none of those things he was talking about. He was not flailing arms and going around the bridge and leaning. He was grabbing the wrists in a chi sau roll with very strong grip strength and HAD forward intent and control of center. That's why kevin couldn't do anything. kevin did not "use a well structured palm strike although he pulled it". he was basically being thrown around by someone who is bigger and stronger than him by wrist grabs. the wrist grab would fold over the top, bringing bodies close enough together for an elbow strike and knees from that "modified clinch".

[LFJ]

And Obasi was doing none of those things he was talking about. He was not flailing arms and going around the bridge and leaning. He was grabbing the wrists in a chi sau roll with very strong grip strength and HAD forward intent and control of center. That's why kevin couldn't do anything. kevin did not "use a well structured palm strike although he pulled it". he was basically being thrown around by someone who is bigger and stronger than him by wrist grabs. the wrist grab would fold over the top, bringing bodies close enough together for an elbow strike and knees from that "modified clinch".

Why does this sentence seem to just be thrown in there without a thought? Do you know what part of the clip I was talking about? It's not about wrist grabs. It was basically the only thing Kevin did offensively, and it was structurally better than almost anything Obasi did.

At :21 they came together. Kevin was on the inside, then switched to the outside. When their roll came back down he swam back under and did a palm strike from the inside that caused Obasi to jerk his head back and answer with an overreaching slap while arching his spine backward, meaning no root- essentially a gotcha b!tch slap.

Kevin pulled his and Obasi tapped his face. Does that make Obasi's better because he landed it? Only if you're playing tag for points and don't care about structure and power.

[Wayfaring]

At :21 they came together. Kevin was on the inside, then switched to the outside. When their roll came back down he swam back under and did a palm strike from the inside that caused Obasi to jerk his head back and answer with an overreaching slap while arching his spine backward, meaning no root- essentially a gotcha b!tch slap.

Kevin pulled his and Obasi tapped his face. Does that make Obasi's better because he landed it? Only if you're playing tag for points and don't care about structure and power.

I looked at it. It looked like kevin feinted a palm strike that caused a reaction which was a head jerk and throwing the hands up. the reaction had the inside line but wasn't really an offensive technique - just kind of throwing the hands up their into the face as a reaction. the reaction kept kevin from advancing.

this is ridiculous.

[LFJ]

the reaction had the inside line but wasn't really an offensive technique - just kind of throwing the hands up their into the face as a reaction. the reaction kept kevin from advancing.

If you can slow it down, Obasi's hand was late. The palm strike went to his face and pulled back. Obasi's hand came up after the palm was retracted. At speed it looked like Obasi got inside of it, but he didn't. He was late. The palm may have even grazed him which caused him to jerk back.

[Wayfaring]

If you can slow it down, Obasi's hand was late. The palm strike went to his face and pulled back. Obasi's hand came up after the palm was retracted. At speed it looked like Obasi got inside of it, but he didn't. He was late. The palm may have even grazed him which caused him to jerk back.

It was a feint, at any speed. Could he have hit the face IF he fully committed to the strike? Maybe. Who knows. He didn't capitalize on the reaction to the feint either. Again, this is all ridiculous. I'm sure in that exchange kevin was scared to hit obasi hard for fear of escalation and retaliation like about 99% of this forum would be in the same situation.

[LFJ]

It was a feint, at any speed. Could he have hit the face IF he fully committed to the strike? Maybe. Who knows. He didn't capitalize on the reaction to the feint either.

At any rate, you're completely missing or ignoring my point, which is about the importance of maintaining good structure no matter what you're doing. That's one of the objectives of chi-sau training. There is no value to most of what Obasi was doing because there was no root or structure.