A few thoughts...

[Chang Style Novice]

As near as I can tell, martial arts is the best method for keeping physical and mental health. However, to gain the fullest advantage from martial arts training, one must train not only for health, but for combat (I could digress here into evolutionary psychology and the importance of struggle to life, but I'm trying to keep this pretty simple.) The kicker is that in any sophisticated and civilized philosophy (IMO) fighting is always a last resort for settling differences. Which brings us to sport fighting. If I am correct about all the above, sport fighting, whether simply sparring hard at the kwoon or going fullbore in the ring/lei tai/octogon is the natural ultimate step in most people's ma developmnt. You fight all out, but without an enemy. Thereby, you satisfy the natural human aggressive urges for struggle and combat, yet strive to do the least harm neccesary for victory (another digression about the 'merciful' nature of judo paradoxically making it more powerful than traditional jujutsu may be inserted here.) By satisfying those urges to fight and hopefully win, you are also required to push your training beyond the level that it would go without a resisting opponent - the 'boards don't hit back' effect. And best of all, you deplete the urge to resolve issues outside the kwoon with violent struggle, freeing you to be a calmer, more civilized individual in areas where violence would lead to mutual harm, not mutual benefit.

And that, I think, is the greatest gift kungfu may have for the world.

_______________________
I am the Grand Ultimate Silk Pyjama

[MonkeySlap Too]

Time to upgrade you from Novice.

(Other than in the philosophical sense that we are ALL novices.)

"Poor is the pupil who
does not surpass his
master" - Leonardo Da
Vinci

[Tigerstyle]

"...And best of all, you deplete the urge to resolve issues outside the kwoon with violent struggle, freeing you to be a calmer, more civilized individual in areas where violence would lead to mutual harm, not mutual benefit.

And that, I think, is the greatest gift kungfu may have for the world."

That sounds good, but apparently according to some KF people here, if someone messes with them on the street, that person's knees are kicked to oblivion and they will no longer have their eyes, throat or groin, as those parts will have been ripped or clawed out and fed to stray dogs in an alley. That doesn't sound like "...the least harm neccesary for victory." j/k ;)

I do agree with you post, and I give it the big thumbs up (I still don't know how make the icon for it appear in the post, though):

(insert "Thumbs Up" icon here)

"No Pain - Good."
- neptunesfall

[Chang Style Novice]

tigerstyle -

Well, believe it or not, I agree with the idea that if you MUST use violence in the real world, you should be utterly merciless. That's because it's the aggressors decision to go to violence. The defender is justified in whatever measures must be taken - win and win fast. The mugger/bully/generic a$ decided your well-being was of no consequence, so apply the golden rule, dig?

Thank you both for your kind words.

_______________________
I am the Grand Ultimate Silk Pyjama

[Kristoffer]

:D

~K~
"maybe not in combat.. but think of the chicks man, the chicks!" -- someone on the subject of back-flips in combat --

[Tigerstyle]

"...if you MUST use violence in the real world, you should be utterly merciless."

Definitely. I agree with you 100%. My comment was sort of building up over the last few weeks of reading the "defending against a takedown" threads that ended up as the whole "grappling vs. kung fu" mess.

I was reading some posts where BJJ/MMA people were being called thugs, but when it came down to anti-takedown defenses I thought that a wrestling-style sprawl seemed to be one of the most non-violent approaches to counter a takedown.

I was going to post a topic about "less violent" approches to being assulted, but I was a bit busy last week. Now seems like a good time to do it.

Once again, ("Thumbs Up" icon) to your second post.

"No Pain - Good."
- neptunesfall

[Horatio Algiers]

Well as Daniel San said to Mr. Miyagi:

I need to learn karate so I can know how to fight.

Mr Miyagi responds: That what you think?
Daniel San: No.
Mr Miyagi: Then why learn Karate?
Daniel San: So I won't have to fight.
Mr. Miyagi: Ah.. Miyagi have faith in Daniel san.

[MonkeySlap Too]

I train to deal with the untenable. 99.99999% of 'problems' I can diffuse with mouth fu.

It is that other little bit that involves mercilessness.

"Poor is the pupil who
does not surpass his
master" - Leonardo Da
Vinci

[shaolinboxer]

"...if you MUST use violence in the real world, you should be utterly merciless."

No, I do not agree.

If you must use violence in the real world, you should remember that the other person is a human being, and that in our society no act of violence goes unpunished, even those in "selfdefense".

IMHO, we should strive to achieve such high levels of technique that we can choose, without fear, to subdue an attacker while minimizing the harm that comes to him.

[Chang Style Novice]

Yeah, I was thinking about that, and had second thoughts. I still think that you should go at it to win and win fast, but that doesn't neccesarily mean harming those who try to harm you.

What brought this to mind was remembering my lunch last week with JWT - we swapped some 'fight' stories, and the common thread was trying to protect everyone involved; not only ourselves but our assailants as well.

Whattaya know, I've still got a lot to learn. Big surprise there. :rolleyes:

_______________________
I am the Grand Ultimate Silk Pyjama

[EARTH DRAGON]

when training yourself to learn HOW to fight i.e "martial arts" and when you are matured and reach some level of skill you should realize that if you are forced to use what you know than you should use reasonable force to neutralize the situation! if you are pushed or grabbed by someone does that mean you should break their arm? if you are attacked than martial arts should teach you to respond back with the same force only to defend yourself, if you think not than you should ask your teacher for a refund for you have learned nothing! and you are not that much more liked by society than the bully in the first place so why have you trained to make your self better only to be back down at that level ?

http://www.kungfuUSA.net

[Sharky]

my problem is that i can usually always find some smart ass way to diss the "troubled" person, and everyone including his crew ****es themselves at him, so it kicks off :rolleyes:

but i'm usually able to get outta anything using just my gift of the gab. it's just so tempting to cuss people down! :D

=================================
What we really need is chicks with a whole new kinda orifice - Fish

Sharky, I should expect this level of immaturity from you after seeing your post titled "Hm." regarding the woman that lives next door to you. I think everyone who unfortuneatly read that post is a bit more ignorant now for doing so. - Spectre

All i wanted was some RICE CAKES! Now? WE MUST BATTLE.

[Crimson Phoenix]

Chinese proverb: being merciful to your enemy is being cruel to yourself...
When you fight, you are driven by animal laws of survival...these laws can be contradictory to legal laws...too bad, but if you think "ooooohh, I shouldn't fight too hard, this guy is another human being", you'd better be REAL better than your opponent or you are putting your own ass in jeopardy...
The best compromise? Shut up, clench your teeth, try to avoid the fight at ANY mean even if it could mean losing face in front of people or girls (hahah, tough for us machos huh?), or being treated a coward...but if the fight is unavoidable, give it everything, strike first and hard and f@ck any other consideration: for the animal that you are, your ass is more precious than anything else, even losing some years in detention...

And before some get all PC at me, no, I don't consider being pushed or grabbed a fight (even if a grab should be dealt with a lot of caution, it's a matter of instinct, if it's just a grab it's OK)...what I mean by a fight is a FIGHT, a real azz fight...

[Sharky]

true. but then you gotta have a BIT of pride, don't always walk away from people talkin smack to you - cos they you just a wuss who's gettin bullied.

=================================
What we really need is chicks with a whole new kinda orifice - Fish

Sharky, I should expect this level of immaturity from you after seeing your post titled "Hm." regarding the woman that lives next door to you. I think everyone who unfortuneatly read that post is a bit more ignorant now for doing so. - Spectre

All i wanted was some RICE CAKES! Now? WE MUST BATTLE.

[Crimson Phoenix]

I honestly never seen any usefulness to pride...it usually brings more troubles than good things...but as everyone heard in the matrix, knowing the path is not the same as walking it, and hence even if I know that, I still am a proud guy...gosh, enlightenment is such a long road :D

[Mr. Nemo]

Chang Style Novice is correct - except for the part about always being utterly merciless with an attacker. There are times when full-tilt viciousness is appropriate, and times when it's not. I can't think of any hard and fast rules to distinguish the two - you kinda have to go on a case-by-case basis. But I think there are times when it's appropriate to try and subdue an opponent without violence.

But he is correct about the benefits of sportfighting. Some of you may have heard my "we humans are a lot closer to the cavemen than we're willing to admit" routine before. If we succesfully maintain the illusion that we're inherently peaceful creatures, we're ignoring a piece of very sweaty dynamite within our own psyches. Martial arts is a great way to detonate that dynamite in such a way that no one gets hurt.

[Tigerstyle]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>...if you are attacked than martial arts should teach you to respond back with the same force only to defend yourself.[/quote]

That's a good point, but there are so many variables to consider. For example:

"if you are pushed or grabbed by someone does that mean you should break their arm?"

That depends on the circumstances involving the situation, not just the push itself. Did the other person just walk up and push/grab me? Was there an argument before it? Is there a weapon or apparent threat of impending violence? Is one side outnumbered? Any bystanders? Etc...

The world isn't just black and white. It's a great goal to be able to respond with just enough force to diffuse the situation, but how do you know what is "just enough"?

"Simple. You should be good enough to know what your opponent is capable of just by observing his/her movements/behavior." :confused:

OK. What if there is someone looking to jump you from behind while you are "diffusing" the situation?

"Simple. You should be good enough to simply sense the presence of someone with bad intentions behind you." :confused:


If the goal of self defense is to avoid harm, you may add unnecessary risk to yourself and possibly others by doing "just enough" to overcome the situation. It is a good point and definitely must be taken into account, though.

"No Pain - Good."
- neptunesfall

[Tigerstyle]

Crimson Phoenix,
My long-winded post was pretty much summed up with that proverb you posted earlier :) .

Mr. Nemo,
The "No mercy." thread deals with the topic of "appropriate force" if you're interested in chiming in on that subject.

"No Pain - Good."
- neptunesfall

[Xebsball]

There is saying that my Shifu said like this:
"If someone toches you without permission, scracth him. If someone scracthes you, punch him. If someone punches you, break his arm. If someone breaks your arm, kill him."

Note that this is supposed to be taken literaly, like if youre in a party and a girl touches you that doesnt mean you have to scratch her for gods sake.

This means use only necessary force, its a buddhist mercy thing you know.

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"I AM EFFECTIVNESS"

[Shaolindynasty]

I think that quote is in the Tao of Jeet Kune Do or at least somthing like it.


www.shaolindynasty.cjb.net (http://www.shaolindynasty.cjb.net)