Who Switched from External to Internal Martial Arts and Why?

[taiji24]

Greetings! I am a new member from New Jersey.

I used to study Shaolin, Qin-Na, Sanda, and Jeet Kune Do when I was young, but I switched to internal arts eventually. Currently I am learning Chen Style Hunyuan Tai Chi under Master Wang Feng Ming, a disciple of late Grandmaster Feng Zhi Qiang. He teaches in NJ, NY, and CT. Here is his website: http://www.worldtaiji.com/

Switching to internal martial arts is a big commitment for me, as the payoff does not come immediately. I am curious to see how many of you have made similar switches after you learned the external styles, and what prompted you to make that switch.

Also, I'd like to hear your comments on the pros and cons of different Kung Fu styles, as you have seen more than one style already and probably have more knowledge than a single-style practitioner.

I look forward to your insights!

[mawali]

Greetings! I am a new member from New Jersey.

I used to study Shaolin, Qin-Na, Sanda, and Jeet Kune Do when I was young, but I switched to internal arts eventually. Currently I am learning Chen Style Hunyuan Tai Chi under Master Wang Feng Ming, a disciple of late Grandmaster Feng Zhi Qiang. He teaches in NJ, NY, and CT. Here is his website: http://www.worldtaiji.com/

Switching to internal martial arts is a big commitment for me, as the payoff does not come immediately. I am curious to see how many of you have made similar switches after you learned the external styles, and what prompted you to make that switch.

Also, I'd like to hear your comments on the pros and cons of different Kung Fu styles, as you have seen more than one style already and probably have more knowledge than a single-style practitioner.

I look forward to your insights!

Despite my many years in CMA, when people talk about switching from external to internal, I am extremely clueless on what they are talking about and I guess I will never get it.
They share the same attributes. My reference is that it pertains to levels of training and not external or internal. Just saying..........

[YouKnowWho]

When you assume that people have switched from "external" to "internal", you have assumed that "internal" is superior than "external". Should you also ask how many people have switched from "internal" to "external"?

[Jimbo]

Whether someone is "internal" or "external" is wholly dependent on the level they have achieved, and has little to do with the "style". And where does one stop and the other start? I've met some long-time practitioners of so-called internal systems who were far less internal than many long-time practitioners of so-called external systems, including some karate experts.

There has been a belief that 'internal' stylists age more gracefully and retain more ability and good health as they become older, but there are many instances where that is just not the case.

Whatever art(s) one chooses to pursue, the most important thing is that it feels right for you, rather than if it's labeled as an internal or external art.

[mooyingmantis]

Almost two years ago I had open heart surgery. I tried getting back into training Northern Mantis right away, but my power and mobility were gone. So I began training Yang style Taijiquan (Liu Yunchaio abstract). It helped me get my power and mobility back. Now I am back to training and teaching Mantis. Taijiquan was a great filler art for getting my health back!

Though I prefer Mantis as a means of self-defense, I believe that Taijiquan improved my overall shenfa and was a more appropriate low intensity workout for my recovery.

[taiji24]

Almost two years ago I had open heart surgery. I tried getting back into training Northern Mantis right away, but my power and mobility were gone. So I began training Yang style Taijiquan (Liu Yunchaio abstract). It helped me get my power and mobility back. Now I am back to training and teaching Mantis. Taijiquan was a great filler art for getting my health back!

Though I prefer Mantis as a means of self-defense, I believe that Taijiquan improved my overall shenfa and was a more appropriate low intensity workout for my recovery.

mooyingmantis, thank you so much. This is the kind of insights I am looking for.

[taiji24]

When you assume that people have switched from "external" to "internal", you have assumed that "internal" is superior than "external". Should you also ask how many people have switched from "internal" to "external"?

Sorry if I left the wrong impression - I am not looking to validate an assumption that "internal" is superior or vice versa. I have practiced other styles myself (Sanda, Qin Na, JKD) and will definitely use them when appropriate.

Actually I really don't mind if the original question is framed as "who have switched from internal to external styles and why". I am trying to understand how people are making these decisions and the context of it, not a religious debate on which one is superior. Fundamentally, I think every martial art that survives thus far has its deserved place.

Again, I am looking to understand the journey of others and see how that can relate to mine. I hope this clarifies.:)

[Miqi]

For this reason:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OXDVYzi-wFE

Lol.

[YouKnowWho]

who have switched from internal to external styles and why?

Taiji was my 1st CMA style that I learned when I was 7. I tried to use my Taiji to fight without much luck. When I was 11, my brother in law taught me the 2nd CMA style Lohan. He asked me to train "1 step 3 punches" for 3 years. Since I could use what he taught me in fighting, I always have more faith in those "external" styles than in those "internal" styles. Today I don't care "external" or 'internal". All I care is still "head meets fist/ground".

[taiji24]

Almost two years ago I had open heart surgery. I tried getting back into training Northern Mantis right away, but my power and mobility were gone. So I began training Yang style Taijiquan (Liu Yunchaio abstract). It helped me get my power and mobility back. Now I am back to training and teaching Mantis. Taijiquan was a great filler art for getting my health back!

Though I prefer Mantis as a means of self-defense, I believe that Taijiquan improved my overall shenfa and was a more appropriate low intensity workout for my recovery.

Just curious - Have you looked at Taiji Mantis after learning Yang Style Taiji? (I don't know anything about Taiji Mantis.)

[GoldenBrain]

For this reason:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OXDVYzi-wFE

Lol.

That was funny. You know you're out of shape and balance when you have to walk over to a wall to hold yourself up just to show your students the bottom of your foot.


From the beginning of my martial arts training I have practice both the so called internal and external at the same time. I've been studying over 30 years and still can't tell you what the difference is. Maybe it's doing forms slow…who knows. I practice all my forms, internal and external slow and fast. Tai Chi and other forms should be practiced at all speeds, both left and right, and on different terrain and elevations. When I practice the external forms I breathe. When I practice the internal forms I breathe. When I practice chi kung I breathe. They all cultivate energy, power and teach applications, so again, what's the difference? The most important thing in martial arts, as you acquire skills and develop your body, is to pressure test yourself against opponents so you can actually learn to fight. Otherwise it's just dance and exercise, which is also okay, but it's not martial.

I agree with YouKnowWho here…


Today I don't care "external" or 'internal". All I care is still "head meets fist/ground".

[Neeros]

The problem is that most internal martial arts nowadays are degraded and are not genuine.

I practice Southern Shaolin kung fu, and the internal aspect has been kept intact due to the directness of the lineage. All in our school experience the benefits of genuine internal training. Radiant health and vitality, mental clarity, internal force, and spiritual joys. The payoff actually comes quite quickly, in less than a year I was experiencing these benefits to some degree and it only gets better the longer I train.

[Miqi]

That was funny. You know you're out of shape and balance when you have to walk over to a wall to hold yourself up just to show your students the bottom of your foot.



Lol. Out of shape martial arts instructors talking about 'training' are always funny - I always think "when's the last time you even did any"? It's a bit like my son's business studies teacher - somehow I can't quite take him seriously, seeing as how he's teaching the subject and not running a successful business.

[Miqi]

The problem is that most internal martial arts nowadays are degraded and are not genuine.

There are few better examples of this degradation and lack of genuineness than 'Shaolin' Wah Nam.

[Neeros]

There are few better examples of this degradation and lack of genuineness than 'Shaolin' Wah Nam.

Have you trained with us at some point?

[Miqi]

Have you trained with us at some point?

Dear David,

Why do I sense that you're about to attempt to entangle me in one of the many ways your cult-ish group uses language games to distract yourself from reality? I haven't trained with you - I had already been exposed to wushu of exceptional quality, from Mainland China, long before I became aware of your rather worrying group. So you could say that I was immunised. But before you ask, I have been to one of your classes to ask the instructor why you are all so obnoxious about your clearly rather ridiculously low level.

[mawali]

For this reason:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OXDVYzi-wFE

Lol.

Health is great! Some deception is OK when people fall for it as they have no choice but it is accepted, at least by the believer!
I, on the other hand, go bat sh&t and ape sh&t when I see those type of parlour tricks since they do nothing to make the art, a feasible method for self discovery and understanding.
This is the ultimate debasement of an art. Just another foolish view so it is my deception :D only! I can't believe people fall for this stuff, really:cool:

[air]

I started my training as a child in Judo and Karate (goju ryu)

I've been doing kung fu for the past 19 years..

I started out more as an external martial artist. Over the years and through a lot of study with Tai Chi, I would say I have
a little bit of external with a lot of internal in my martial art.

[mooyingmantis]

Just curious - Have you looked at Taiji Mantis after learning Yang Style Taiji? (I don't know anything about Taiji Mantis.)

The two are not related. My friend, Will Willams, who studies Taiji Mantis under Zhou Zhendong in Yantai, China has this to say about Taiji Mantis on his website:

The name Taiji has nothing to do with the style Taiji Quan, it is merely a nod at the philosophical principles of Yin and Yang which are present in every aspect of the style.

http://www.monkeystealspeach.co.uk/taiji-mantis.php

However, I have studied Taiji Meihua Mantis forms under three instructors.

[Neeros]

Dear David,

Why do I sense that you're about to attempt to entangle me in one of the many ways your cult-ish group uses language games to distract yourself from reality? I haven't trained with you - I had already been exposed to wushu of exceptional quality, from Mainland China, long before I became aware of your rather worrying group. So you could say that I was immunised. But before you ask, I have been to one of your classes to ask the instructor why you are all so obnoxious about your clearly rather ridiculously low level.

Because I clearly was trying to entangle you ^_^ It was a simple and direct question really. If you haven't sparred with us, or received our training and practiced it for some time, you really can't judge us. I've seen the benefits of my training first hand both in my personal life and when training with fighters of other systems.

The whole cult/not-a-cult thing has been debated to death really. I am free to explore other systems/styles/ways of thinking, we're not so rigid as you might think.

[Miqi]

Because I clearly was trying to entangle you ^_^ It was a simple and direct question really. If you haven't sparred with us, or received our training and practiced it for some time, you really can't judge us.


As I've already mentioned, I have actually been to your school, to ask in person why you're all so obnoxious about your club system, which, from the outside, appears to be comically low level.

If you're now telling me that I can't possibly see why it's so great until I'm actually brainwashed into its BS, to the degree that produces threads like this:

http://www.wongkiewkit.com/forum/showthread.php?2334-1st-Shaolin-Law-Required-to-Respect-the-Master

Then yes, pal, I can see that's probably true - I would probably have to be brainwashed before I began to see the merits of this fairly obvious hoax. As it is, although I'm personally very low level in the great scheme of things, I know more about Chinese wushu than Wong Kiew Kit ever will, so I'm amply situated to judge him, and you, and your group.




I've seen the benefits of my training first hand both in my personal life and when training with fighters of other systems.

That's only true because it's a lie, I'm sorry to say. Those 'fighters' of other systems were no such thing.




The whole cult/not-a-cult thing has been debated to death really. I am free to explore other systems/styles/ways of thinking, we're not so rigid as you might think.

I don't really think it's a cult as such - although i think at the higer organisational levels it probably is. I think your group is just 'concerning', at your level - and also laughable, at your level. Last time I checked, I'm free to think that too.

[Miqi]

By the way, while we're on the subject of authentic wushu, you do realise that Wong Kiew Kit invented his own taiji after reading a basic book on Yang taiji, right? Which your group no pretends is possible because of his immensely high level - which somehow makes what he's invented more 'authhentic' than actual lineage holders' taiji, lmao. That's some cultish double think right there. Not that being a lineage holder means anything anyway - just, wow, it's not much of a basis for being obnoxious about 'authenticity', lol.

[Neeros]

As I've already mentioned, I have actually been to your school, to ask in person why you're all so obnoxious about your club system, which, from the outside, appears to be comically low level.

If you're now telling me that I can't possibly see why it's so great until I'm actually brainwashed into its BS, to the degree that produces threads like this:

http://www.wongkiewkit.com/forum/showthread.php?2334-1st-Shaolin-Law-Required-to-Respect-the-Master

Then yes, pal, I can see that's probably true - I would probably have to be brainwashed before I began to see the merits of this fairly obvious hoax. As it is, although I'm personally very low level in the great scheme of things, I know more about Chinese wushu than Wong Kiew Kit ever will, so I'm amply situated to judge him, and you, and your group.



That's only true because it's a lie, I'm sorry to say. Those 'fighters' of other systems were no such thing.



I don't really think it's a cult as such - although i think at the higer organisational levels it probably is. I think your group is just 'concerning', at your level - and also laughable, at your level. Last time I checked, I'm free to think that too.

1. What pray tell is so fundamentally wrong with respecting your Sifu, and following their instructions?

2. How is learning a system and practicing it being brainwashed? Though I am glad you have learned so much you can judge another system without practicing it or with it's practitioners.

3. I am impressed, you must have developed great powers of intuition to see truth in a situation from a forum post without evidence.


By the way, while we're on the subject of authentic wushu, you do realise that Wong Kiew Kit invented his own taiji after reading a basic book on Yang taiji, right? Which your group no pretends is possible because of his immensely high level - which somehow makes what he's invented more 'authhentic' than actual lineage holders' taiji, lmao. That's some cultish double think right there. Not that being a lineage holder means anything anyway - just, wow, it's not much of a basis for being obnoxious about 'authenticity', lol.

4. Yes I did know that, and I also know that it is highly effective in all the ways taijiquan should be. It is worth noting that one of our instructors is a student of Yang Taijiquan and sees benefit in both. Another of our instructors practices Chen Taijiquan and sees benefit in both. We do unabashedly claim to have high level arts, because without fail we get high level benefits. It would be a simple matter to solve with for example three star hitting to see which of us has more force, but over the internet without options for direct experience a conversation like this can just go on and on and on and on ad infinitum.

[Miqi]

1. What pray tell is so fundamentally wrong with respecting your Sifu, and following their instructions?

Well, I would suggest that a certain degree of sensible perspective in regards to a 'leader' is healthy, when one joins a group of any kind. I'm suspecting that this is a lesson you will have to learn the hard way, like most of the rest of us. However, there is nothing fundamentally wrong with respecting your teacher - but it might be concerning if that respect becomes a blindness, or a blind obedience.



2. How is learning a system and practicing it being brainwashed?


Interesting question. 'Brainwashed' is a very patronising and over-used term. I think that you genuinely 'want' to believe that you are practicing genuine Chinese wushu, and you genuinely want to believe that there is an easy way, and you genuinely want to believe in the hoax - that's how hoaxes work. As part of that, you will spend some time caught up in the group think, until you have your reality checked for you.



Though I am glad you have learned so much you can judge another system without practicing it or with it's practitioners.


You don't really mean that you're glad. However, as I know a great deal more about wushu than you, it's not really a big deal. As for practicing 'with' people from your system, let me reiterate for the third time that I took your club up on its invitation for people who didn't believe their obnoxious claims to come down to one of their classes. I did so.



3. I am impressed, you must have developed great powers of intuition to see truth in a situation from a forum post without evidence.




Sadly, what goes on in your group is, far from being some great mystery, just a rather sad cliche. No great insight required - just a great deal more experience than you.




4. Yes I did know that, and I also know that it is highly effective in all the ways taijiquan should be.

Lie. However, you have at least admitted that your so called taiji is just some nonsense that Wong Kiew Fraud made up out of a book.




It is worth noting that one of our instructors is a student of Yang Taijiquan and sees benfit in both. Another of our instructors practices Chen Taijiquan and sees benefit in both.



Erm, there is no such thing as Shaolin Wah Nam taiji - it's some rubbish your fraud teacher cobbled together from a book.




We do unabashedly claim to have high level arts, because without fail we get high level benefits. It would be a simple matter to solve with for example three star hitting to see which of us has more force,


Lol.



but over the internet without options for direct experience a conversation like this can just go on and on and on and on ad infinitum.

Yes, that's why I went down to one of your classes, to experience the greatness of Shaolin Wah Nam in person. I may have mentioned this.

[Miqi]

There's an interesting idea in the sociology of networks that says that innovation within a group is often rare, because people tend to harmonise their group outlook. Innovation tends to come from ideas or chance encounters with external people, events or sources of information. Any group which is actively discouraging learning from external sources must therefore be subject to the suspicion that it's trying to protect its group outlook. I suppose all martial arts groups are a bit like this.

[Neeros]

Well, I would suggest that a certain degree of sensible perspective in regards to a 'leader' is healthy, when one joins a group of any kind. I'm suspecting that this is a lesson you will have to learn the hard way, like most of the rest of us. However, there is nothing fundamentally wrong with respecting your teacher - but it might be concerning if that respect becomes a blindness, or a blind obedience.



Interesting question. 'Brainwashed' is a very patronising and over-used term. I think that you genuinely 'want' to believe that you are practicing genuine Chinese wushu, and you genuinely want to believe that there is an easy way, and you genuinely want to believe in the hoax - that's how hoaxes work. As part of that, you will spend some time caught up in the group think, until you have your reality checked for you.



You don't really mean that you're glad. However, as I know a great deal more about wushu than you, it's not really a big deal. As for practicing 'with' people from your system, let me reiterate for the third time that I took your club up on its invitation for people who didn't believe their obnoxious claims to come down to one of their classes. I did so.




Sadly, what goes on in your group is, far from being some great mystery, just a rather sad cliche. No great insight required - just a great deal more experience than you.




Lie. However, you have at least admitted that your so called taiji is just some nonsense that Wong Kiew Fraud made up out of a book.



Erm, there is no such thing as Shaolin Wah Nam taiji - it's some rubbish your fraud teacher cobbled together from a book.



Lol.



Yes, that's why I went down to one of your classes, to experience the greatness of Shaolin Wah Nam in person. I may have mentioned this.

Personally I just kept an open mind when I first started learning, it was my experiences that led me to sticking around. There was never any blindness involved.

The thought that there might be an easy way is nice, I haven't found it yet though. I'm working towards an hour in horse stance at the moment. If that is something you consider easy then I am amazed.

Ok, so you visited a class. I guess it just wasn't for you then, nothing wrong with that really. You claim that you know much more about "Wushu" (Please define, I know the term to mean "Performance with no martial applicability" like what is generally seen at the shaolin temple these days) I can say that right back, that I know more about kung fu than you. Either direction, the words themselves are meaningless.

My Sigung is most definitely not a fraud, I have met the man and experienced his skill first hand.

The Taiji he created is not rubbish, it is quite a good system. You quite literally put words in my mouth, I never said it was a nonesense or fraudulent (this conversation is fun so far, "yes. no. yes. no. yes. no." ^_^)



There's an interesting idea in the sociology of networks that says that innovation within a group is often rare, because people tend to harmonise their group outlook. Innovation tends to come from ideas or chance encounters with external people, events or sources of information. Any group which is actively discouraging learning from external sources must therefore be subject to the suspicion that it's trying to protect its group outlook. I suppose all martial arts groups are a bit like this.

My Sifu encuraged me to study at an Ip Man lineage wing chun school I found, mainly for the sensitivity gained through chi sau. I still currently attend this school, and I find it to be an excellent training, with excellent teachers, and it is a system I plan on practicing for the rest of my life along with my shaolinquan. :D

[Miqi]

Personally I just kept an open mind when I first started learning, it was my experiences that led me to sticking around. There was never any blindness involved.


David, if you're happy to claim things such as that you have authentic lineage taiji, AND at the same time admit that your teacher just made up his taiji from a book, then at some point I suspect you're going to have to decide in your own heart if you're really being honest with yourself and others. For me, Shaolin Wah Nam is just the martial arts system your brother invented when he was 12 combined with the business plan of Scientology.




The thought that there might be an easy way is nice, I haven't found it yet though. I'm working towards an hour in horse stance at the moment. If that is something you consider easy then I am amazed.


Actually, I just find it trivial. Anyway, if the horse stance looks like this - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zQGuPxXj1I0 - than that's not really a big deal, is it?




Ok, so you visited a class. I guess it just wasn't for you then, nothing wrong with that really.


David, as I think you understand clearly enough, I didn't go down to one of your classes to 'try' it - as I've already told you, I went down and asked the instructor, directly, why your school is so obnoxious about its clearly comically low level. I did this following a published invitation from your school to do so. You understand precisely what I'm telling you.




You claim that you know much more about "Wushu" (Please define, I know the term to mean "Performance with no martial applicability"


Well that's a good example of your ignorance, right there. There again, I understand 'Shaolin' to mean 'having some connection to Shaolin', lol - which you obviously don't.



like what is generally seen at the shaolin temple these days) I can say that right back, that I know more about kung fu than you. Either direction, the words themselves are meaningless.


What you mean by 'know about kung fu' is just that you compare things to your own school, and if they don't look the same, then they aren't kung fu. Most of us have been at that stage of development. It'll just take some kind of reality check to make you see that that's not quite the way to assess it.




My Sigung is most definitely not a fraud, I have met the man and experienced his skill first hand.


Yes, but who are you to judge?




The Taiji he created is not rubbish, it is quite a good system. You quite literally put words in my mouth, I never said it was a nonesense or fraudulent (this conversation is fun so far, "yes. no. yes. no. yes. no." ^_^)


Well, you've admitted that its claim to any authentic 'lineage' is rubbish.




My Sifu encuraged me to study at an Ip Man lineage wing chun school I found, mainly for the sensitivity gained through chi sau. I still currently attend this school, and I find it to be an excellent training, with excellent teachers, and it is a system I plan on practicing for the rest of my life along with my shaolinquan. :D

Ah well, plans are funny things. If I were you, I wouldn't get a Shaolin Wah Nam tattoo just yet.

[Dragonzbane76]

wow way to ruin a thread with your petty bullsh!t guys.

[Miqi]

wow way to ruin a thread with your petty bullsh!t guys.

Is this your group?

http://www.pailum.org/

[Dragonzbane76]

nope... although I did learn pai lum. Never liked glenn Wilson's stuff. arrogant ass that he is. He's a perfect example of whats wrong with Kung fu these days IMO.

[Miqi]

nope... although I did learn pai lum. Never liked glenn Wilson's stuff. arrogant ass that he is. He's a perfect example of whats wrong with Kung fu these days IMO.

Fair enough. But if every time someone says something like you're saying here - which seems a pretty accurate assessment from what I saw on that website - someone then closes it down by saying it's petty bickering, then nothing ever gets properly discussed and aired.

[Dragonzbane76]

the title of the thread is "who switched from external to internal martial arts and why?" Not hey your teacher is a joke blah blah blah....you suck type of things. I didn't come on this thread to hear about what ever disagreement you 2 have and honestly I don't care what disagreement is there. If you wanna air it, IM them. Airing it does not mean I want to sort through your guys crap to actually read what someone has to say about the actual topic.

[taiji24]

The two are not related. My friend, Will Willams, who studies Taiji Mantis under Zhou Zhendong in Yantai, China has this to say about Taiji Mantis on his website:

The name Taiji has nothing to do with the style Taiji Quan, it is merely a nod at the philosophical principles of Yin and Yang which are present in every aspect of the style.

http://www.monkeystealspeach.co.uk/taiji-mantis.php

However, I have studied Taiji Meihua Mantis forms under three instructors.

Ok, so there is also a Taiji Meihua Mantis, in addition to Taiji Mantis. Is it safe to assume that Taiji Meihua is also more closely related to Mantis than to Tai Chi? Thanks for sharing. I didn't know the difference.

[taiji24]

I started my training as a child in Judo and Karate (goju ryu)

I've been doing kung fu for the past 19 years..

I started out more as an external martial artist. Over the years and through a lot of study with Tai Chi, I would say I have
a little bit of external with a lot of internal in my martial art.

Thanks for the response. How do you compare Judo and Tai Chi? Pros and Cons of each style? I have no experience in Judo.

[Dragonzbane76]

How do you compare Judo and Tai Chi

not much to compare between the 2. They both have totally different training styles IMO.

[Miqi]

the title of the thread is "who switched from external to internal martial arts and why?" Not hey your teacher is a joke blah blah blah....you suck type of things. I didn't come on this thread to hear about what ever disagreement you 2 have and honestly I don't care what disagreement there. If you wanna air it, IM them. Airing it does not mean I want to sort through your guys crap to actually read what someone has to say about the actual topic.

Well, I think part of the sub-text of this thread, as John Wang has already pointed out, is that people take up 'styles' or 'switch styles' because they buy into the claims made by particular groups. Let's face it - no one 'switches' to a so called 'internal' style because that style has proven its ability across a wide range of martial arts combat platforms. Except for the most exceptional cases, other reasons are always more important - including the sales tactics of the teacher or group.

[Miqi]

Thanks for the response. How do you compare Judo and Tai Chi? Pros and Cons of each style? I have no experience in Judo.

The average judo player is far and away a superior martial artist to the average taiji player. At the 'highest' level, however, I would say that a different principle comes into play - my coach said once that at the highest martial art level, there is no difference between styles, because 'highest level' implies that an individual has achieved a significant ability to use their system. It might be that a partucular system produces no such indivduals, or few, as in taiji, or many, as in judo - but that is a problem with training methods in the case of taiji, not a problem with taiji per se.

I had a chance once to experience the level of a judo player who had been on Britain's national squad. To look at him, he looked nothing - like a nerd. His strength and speed, however, were phenomenal. Beware appearances!

[Neeros]

David, if you're happy to claim things such as that you have authentic lineage taiji, AND at the same time admit that your teacher just made up his taiji from a book, then at some point I suspect you're going to have to decide in your own heart if you're really being honest with yourself and others. For me, Shaolin Wah Nam is just the martial arts system your brother invented when he was 12 combined with the business plan of Scientology.




Actually, I just find it trivial. Anyway, if the horse stance looks like this - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zQGuPxXj1I0 - than that's not really a big deal, is it?




David, as I think you understand clearly enough, I didn't go down to one of your classes to 'try' it - as I've already told you, I went down and asked the instructor, directly, why your school is so obnoxious about its clearly comically low level. I did this following a published invitation from your school to do so. You understand precisely what I'm telling you.



Well that's a good example of your ignorance, right there. There again, I understand 'Shaolin' to mean 'having some connection to Shaolin', lol - which you obviously don't.



What you mean by 'know about kung fu' is just that you compare things to your own school, and if they don't look the same, then they aren't kung fu. Most of us have been at that stage of development. It'll just take some kind of reality check to make you see that that's not quite the way to assess it.




Yes, but who are you to judge?



Well, you've admitted that its claim to any authentic 'lineage' is rubbish.



Ah well, plans are funny things. If I were you, I wouldn't get a Shaolin Wah Nam tattoo just yet.

It's ok, I know I'm not going to change your view about my school, its no biggie.

However a couple points, there is a wide range of opinion in Wahnam about how the horse stance can be practiced, personally I practice it a fair bit lower than my Sisook Leo in that vid you linked, who's horse stance is closer to that of GM Lam Sai Wing. Mine is not quite parallel, but with a slight pyramid shape like in a picture below of another Sisook.

8104
vs
8103

Neither is wrong, and both have wonderful benefits within the spectrum of flow and consolidation respectively.

So...you simply asked an obnoxious question, I understand now. Nothing was really accomplished.

My schools shaolin lineage is quite direct I assure you. Not that it matters to anyone. :)

Wanna keep going? This is entertaining for sure.


the title of the thread is "who switched from external to internal martial arts and why?" Not hey your teacher is a joke blah blah blah....you suck type of things. I didn't come on this thread to hear about what ever disagreement you 2 have and honestly I don't care what disagreement there. If you wanna air it, IM them. Airing it does not mean I want to sort through your guys crap to actually read what someone has to say about the actual topic.

My apologies, I was simply defending my training from a public attack.

But on-topic:

My reason is the same as before, I switched to internal martial arts because muay thai even though its a great system that quickly produces combat efficiency wasn't giving me what I was looking for in terms of a holistic development of my body, and mind. Nowadays I only use it if training partners want to practice against it. I still practice it just enough to keep the techniques and footwork fresh.

[Dragonzbane76]

Well, I think part of the sub-text of this thread, as John Wang has already pointed out, is that people take up 'styles' or 'switch styles' because they buy into the claims made by particular groups. Let's face it - no one 'switches' to a so called 'internal' style because that style has proven its ability across a wide range of martial arts combat platforms. Except for the most exceptional cases, other reasons are always more important - including the sales tactics of the teacher or group.

hey if you have an issue with someone IM them. You might say "sub-text" but honestly it was a b!tchfest.

[Miqi]

It's ok, I know I'm not going to change your view about my school, its no biggie.

David, it's not your school. It's the school of the person who makes all the money. Schools, styles, systems, forms, stances - all just points on the journey that we try for a while, looking for where wushu really is.




However a couple points, there is a wide range of opinion in Wahnam about how the horse stance can be practiced, personally I practice it a fair bit lower than my Sisook Leo in that vid you linked, who's horse stance is closer to that of GM Lam Sai Wing. Mine is not quite parallel, but with a slight pyramid shape like in a picture below of another Sisook.

8104
vs
8103

Neither is wrong, and both have wonderful benefits within the spectrum of flow and consolidation respectively.



One of the difficult things to get across to people in Chinese wushu is not to 'fetishise' particular postures or stances. This is a particular problem in yiquan with the fetishisation zhan zhuang - something that has spread quite widely now, including to Shaolin Wah Nam. A horse stance is really just a basic stance - if you practice basics extensively for years, then no surprise, you will become good at basics. That is, assuming you practice the basics correctly - a lot of people practice poor basics for years, and end up with double nothing.

More usefully, I would suggest that what you consider to be a basic in the first place should continue to evolve - otherwise, you become very scelrotic in your progress. But - I've been where you are, and I understand that we get caught in the fetishisation period, simply because we're looking for the 'secret' of wushu, so we get distracted down all kinds of side alleys - the funniest of which is probably doing horse stance/toilet sitting for an hour



So...you simply asked an obnoxious question, I understand now. Nothing was really accomplished.


No, nothing was acoomplished, and nothing was learned. However, it is typically despicable of Shaolin Wah Nam to invite people who don't believe the hype to come down and test it, and then when people do, then attack people for doing so as 'obnoxious'. The only thing that makes that even worse is the corrupt pretence that it's actually you who are the honourable school. But if that's what you think wu de is, then that's up to you.




My schools shaolin lineage is quite direct I assure you. Not that it matters to anyone. :)


Well, I think Wong Kiew Kit has some kind of folk wushu lineage - but it is pretty difficult to get round the fact that he admits - and you admit - that he made up his taiji. Can you explain, in that case, in what way he has an authentic taiji 'lineage' - i.e. when he didn't actually learn from a human being?



Wanna keep going? This is entertaining for sure.


If I didn't want to chat about this stuff, I simply wouldn't. I suppose more interesting is why you want to chat about it.



My apologies, I was simply defending my training from a public attack.


Lol - why apologise to him? He's 'b!tching' in precisely the same way that he's accusing us of. Besides which, these are relevant issues.



But on-topic:

My reason is the same as before, I switched to internal martial arts because muay thai even though its a great system that quickly produces combat efficiency wasn't giving me what I was looking for in terms of a holistic development of my body, and mind. Nowadays I only use it if training partners want to practice against it. I still practice it just enough to keep the techniques and footwork fresh.

This use of terms like 'muay thai' etc. is another concerning issue - particualry with Shaolin wah nam, but across the CMA world more generally. Doing a bit of training once or twice a week at the local club does not make one a 'muay thai' fighter, any more than teaching someone to jab, cross, low round kick makes one a muay thai instructor. More on topic, your school, as many others have done, shows a lot of techniques which are supposedly useful against 'muay thai' and 'boxing', to encourage people to think of your art as superior - and yet the demonstrations are never actually with people from those arts. Which is at best dangerous, and at worst nothing but a con.

[Dragonzbane76]

He's 'b!tching' in precisely the same way that he's accusing us of. Besides which, these are relevant issues.


here's an idea, create your own thread and slander each other to death in it.

[SPJ]

internal training plus external training

they lead to the same goal or endpoint.

:)

[Miqi]

internal training plus external training

they lead to the same goal or endpoint.

:)

Do they? Really? Or is this just the story that CMAists tell themselves before sleep? Is there even anyone - I mean, even one, single, CMAist who can demonstrate a realistic achivement of this 'end point'? I don't mean to be mean, but one would have to start defining the 'end point' to answer this - but CMAists don't like to do that, because they can be measured against it. They like to talk about 'achieving it', and slag off anyone who doesn't believe that they or their master has achieved it, but they don't like to define it. If you say fight skill they say health, you say health they say fight skill.

Personally, I don't think there is an end point - there's only the 'da cheng' - the 'ultimate achievement' - i.e. you, the ultimate product of what you did, learned, and are. And this is usually a cery long way from the ultimate achivements of other MA in most so-called 'CMA'.

[Neeros]

David, it's not your school. It's the school of the person who makes all the money. Schools, styles, systems, forms, stances - all just points on the journey that we try for a while, looking for where wushu really is.



One of the difficult things to get across to people in Chinese wushu is not to 'fetishise' particular postures or stances. This is a particular problem in yiquan with the fetishisation zhan zhuang - something that has spread quite widely now, including to Shaolin Wah Nam. A horse stance is really just a basic stance - if you practice basics extensively for years, then no surprise, you will become good at basics. That is, assuming you practice the basics correctly - a lot of people practice poor basics for years, and end up with double nothing.

More usefully, I would suggest that what you consider to be a basic in the first place should continue to evolve - otherwise, you become very scelrotic in your progress. But - I've been where you are, and I understand that we get caught in the fetishisation period, simply because we're looking for the 'secret' of wushu, so we get distracted down all kinds of side alleys - the funniest of which is probably doing horse stance/toilet sitting for an hour



No, nothing was acoomplished, and nothing was learned. However, it is typically despicable of Shaolin Wah Nam to invite people who don't believe the hype to come down and test it, and then when people do, then attack people for doing so as 'obnoxious'. The only thing that makes that even worse is the corrupt pretence that it's actually you who are the honourable school. But if that's what you think wu de is, then that's up to you.



Well, I think Wong Kiew Kit has some kind of folk wushu lineage - but it is pretty difficult to get round the fact that he admits - and you admit - that he made up his taiji. Can you explain, in that case, in what way he has an authentic taiji 'lineage' - i.e. when he didn't actually learn from a human being?



If I didn't want to chat about this stuff, I simply wouldn't. I suppose more interesting is why you want to chat about it.



Lol - why apologise to him? He's 'b!tching' in precisely the same way that he's accusing us of. Besides which, these are relevant issues.



This use of terms like 'muay thai' etc. is another concerning issue - particualry with Shaolin wah nam, but across the CMA world more generally. Doing a bit of training once or twice a week at the local club does not make one a 'muay thai' fighter, any more than teaching someone to jab, cross, low round kick makes one a muay thai instructor. More on topic, your school, as many others have done, shows a lot of techniques which are supposedly useful against 'muay thai' and 'boxing', to encourage people to think of your art as superior - and yet the demonstrations are never actually with people from those arts. Which is at best dangerous, and at worst nothing but a con.

Actually my goal right now really is to go back to the basics, to consolidate the very most basics to a really deep level, to build a better foundation for the higher level training.

He never claimed to have an authentic tai chi lineage, but to have created a system of authentic tai chi based on shaolin principles. Huge difference there. It is a "Once you have the map, all paths become clear" type of thing. Earlier a friend who learned from a Yang Tai Chi school in china taught me single and double push hands in about 2 minutes and I was able to do it fairly well(though probably quite bad really XD) by applying the basic principles of waist rotation and sinking/redirecting incoming force.

I do agree with you quite a bit about "I would suggest that what you consider to be a basic in the first place should continue to evolve" that is quite a profound point.

You may believe me or not, but for the muay thai (and some very basic ground game) I was training 6 days a week with my very good friend and a professional fighter. This continued until my friend went into the navy, and our coach disbanded our training group. It was amazingly intense, and often painful training, but I still feel like it gave me a very good foundation for determining what has the potential for working. It is still my biggest regret that I never got the chance to take my training to the cage.

There are vids on youtube of some of my seniors doing some light sparring for fun with a muay thai school, they did quite well considering for most of them I think it was their first time stepping into a ring. I plan on competing in sanshou in the near future, so I suppose I shall see where my training has gotten me. Win or lose if I can hold my own I will be happy, no shame in losing to a better fighter regardless of system, just incentive to train harder and fight harder.

I do apologize for being sarcastic towards you, but you must admit that insulting my sigung was bound to raise my hackles a bit. :)

[Miqi]

Actually my goal right now really is to go back to the basics, to consolidate the very most basics to a really deep level, to build a better foundation for the higher level training.


If you fetishise horse stance etc., then after ten years you'll no doubt have a strong horse stance - but so what? When are you planning on being any good? When you're 80? That's not how people used to think in CMA.



He never claimed to have an authentic tai chi lineage, but to have created a system of authentic tai chi based on shaolin principles.


See - now he's got you saying things that tie the truth in knots. You mean that it's an authentic system simply because it 'starts' with Wong Kiew Kit? Sounds like a little bit of convenient double-think to me, mate - but, if you buy it, then you buy it. Literally.



Huge difference there. It is a "Once you have the map, all paths become clear" type of thing.


Actually, it's the other way, as Wang Xiang Zhai taught - once you finally get a hold of the map, all the falsehoods, and lies, and failures, and false paths, and ridiculous systems and teachers are revealed for what they really are, much in the same way that a small truth in science reveals billions of ideas to be total rubbish. What Wong Kiew Kit does is the total opposite of revealing the truth - mivh like JKD, he pretends that the truth of wushu is hidden in multiple styles, which one has to learn - and indeed pay for. Which is not the truth.

Secondly, he makes the 'truth' of wushu into a grand, obnoxiously amazing thing that he has the keys to. The truth of wushu is just you. Or him. Or me. The great metaphysical 'truth' is just that you are the product of your training, coaching, ability, opportunity and dilligence. I mean - have you never seen The Silent Flute? Lol.



Earlier a friend who learned from a Yang Tai Chi school in china taught me single and double push hands in about 2 minutes and I was able to do it fairly well(though probably quite bad really XD) by applying the basic principles of waist rotation and sinking/redirecting incoming force.


Even if this were true, it would be you, and not your style, that adapted well. However, there are many degrees to Yang style push hands - from people with exceptional skill through to just doing a few basic exercises. Where are you on that scale? Are you sure you did it correctly? Don't over-value being able to do something very basic (remember I said don't fetishise basics? It's a route to corrupted progress).



I do agree with you quite a bit about "I would suggest that what you consider to be a basic in the first place should continue to evolve" that is quite a profound point.


Well, thank you - but it's really just a basic of the correct training method of Chinese wushu.



You may believe me or not, but for the muay thai (and some very basic ground game) I was training 6 days a week with my very good friend and a professional fighter. This continued until my friend went into the navy, and our coach disbanded our training group. It was amazingly intense, and often painful training, but I still feel like it gave me a very good foundation for determining what has the potential for working. It is still my biggest regret that I never got the chance to take my training to the cage.


Well let's face it - you're not on the road to doing that now, are you? I suspect that there is zero chance of learning how to cope with those guys at SWN.



There are vids on youtube of some of my seniors doing some light sparring for fun with a muay thai school, they did quite well considering for most of them I think it was their first time stepping into a ring.


Well we would have to see the videos to comment on them.



I plan on competing in sanshou in the near future, so I suppose I shall see where my training has gotten me. Win or lose if I can hold my own I will be happy, no shame in losing to a better fighter regardless of system, just incentive to train harder and fight harder.


No there's no shame at all in that. There would be shame, however, for an instructor, if they trained you in a way that totally didn't prepare you, and then put you in the ring under the dogmatic belief that their 'traditional' training can help you protect yourself, when in reality it had no chance. I rather suspect your Muay Thai firend's training will be of far more use to you when you do do this.



I do apologize for being sarcastic towards you, but you must admit that insulting my sigung was bound to raise my hackles a bit. :)

I don't need anyone's apology. To see just how much someone really believes in what they are saying, you have to rattle the cage a bit.

[Neeros]

Well let's face it - you're not on the road to doing that now, are you? I suspect that there is zero chance of learning how to cope with those guys at SWN.


No there's no shame at all in that. There would be shame, however, for an instructor, if they trained you in a way that totally didn't prepare you, and then put you in the ring under the dogmatic belief that their 'traditional' training can help you protect yourself, when in reality it had no chance. I rather suspect your Muay Thai firend's training will be of far more use to you when you do do this.



I suppose we shall see. :)

[Miqi]

I suppose we shall see. :)

Eventually, you will.

[Miqi]

In terms of the original question, 'internal' and 'external' don't mean the same things to me as they do to the question poser. 'Internal', to me, means what Wang Xiang Zhai described as 'proceeding by intuition'. And I can say that I certainly did 'switch' to this method of training at a very distinct and particular point. The reason was simply that I finally understood why I had been practicing martial arts all these years. The 'why' isn't important now, and nor is why I came to make the realisation - the only important thing was that the 'why' wasn't because I wanted to know the real meaning of wushu. When that changed, and my reason for training became solely that, then I understood the 'internal' method almost instantly, like something really obvious that for various reasons I'd refused to see for a very long time. Unfortunately, understanding it is not correlated to being very good at it.

[Dale Dugas]

There is no such thing as internal and external.

there is only whole body.

[Miqi]

There is no such thing as internal and external.

there is only whole body.

While not arguing with this, I also note that 'whole body power' is the buzz phrase that is overtaking, replacing, and actually in most cases acting as simply a new name for 'internal' in much CMA discussion. Different name, but in most cases, all the same problems of definition, demonstration, etc.

[mooyingmantis]

Ok, so there is also a Taiji Meihua Mantis, in addition to Taiji Mantis. Is it safe to assume that Taiji Meihua is also more closely related to Mantis than to Tai Chi? Thanks for sharing. I didn't know the difference.

Yes, it is just mantis.

However, you may enjoy the following story.

As I mentioned previously, after my heart surgery I took up Yang style Tajiquan for a lower impact workout. My sifu has a female student, who has trained taijiquan under him for years, lead the class. I explained to her that my knowledge of taijiquan was limited to what I had read in books and videos that I had seen on Youtube. So, I was less than a novice. After a couple classes of watching me move and realizing that I understood how to apply the movements in fighting, she eyed me with suspicion and asked me why I had said that I didn't know taijiquan when she felt I clearly had a background in it. When I sheepishly shrugged, my sifu explained to her that I had decades of Chinese martial arts experience. And since both taijiquan and mantis were both influenced by changquan it was easy for me to understand the applications and move properly based on universal TCMA principles.

The moral of this story is that kung fu is kung fu. Each style may have a unique emphasis, but the core principles should be the same.

Unfortunately, my taijiquan still sucks in my opinion. :(

[Dale Dugas]

While not arguing with this, I also note that 'whole body power' is the buzz phrase that is overtaking, replacing, and actually in most cases acting as simply a new name for 'internal' in much CMA discussion. Different name, but in most cases, all the same problems of definition, demonstration, etc.


It is not a buzzword but a concept that is easily demonstrated, defined and taught compared to people who want to think their qi moves them and not their structure.

No Qi just me.

[Miqi]

It is not a buzzword but a concept that is easily demonstrated, defined and taught compared to people who want to think their qi moves them and not their structure.

No Qi just me.

Well, it doesn't matter what you think moves you, nor how you describe it. Only what you actually do counts - and many now use 'whole body power' to describe what they do simply because it's the latest buzz phrase. Like everything else in Chinese wushu, it's actual, true meaning is now mostly obscured in the slew of misguided individuals claiming to have 'it'.

[taiji24]

Yes, it is just mantis.

However, you may enjoy the following story.

As I mentioned previously, after my heart surgery I took up Yang style Tajiquan for a lower impact workout. My sifu has a female student, who has trained taijiquan under him for years, lead the class. I explained to her that my knowledge of taijiquan was limited to what I had read in books and videos that I had seen on Youtube. So, I was less than a novice. After a couple classes of watching me move and realizing that I understood how to apply the movements in fighting, she eyed me with suspicion and asked me why I had said that I didn't know taijiquan when she felt I clearly had a background in it. When I sheepishly shrugged, my sifu explained to her that I had decades of Chinese martial arts experience. And since both taijiquan and mantis were both influenced by changquan it was easy for me to understand the applications and move properly based on universal TCMA principles.

The moral of this story is that kung fu is kung fu. Each style may have a unique emphasis, but the core principles should be the same.

Unfortunately, my taijiquan still sucks in my opinion. :(

Excellent insight! Thanks! Your previous training in other martial arts will definitely show, as the way you move will be very different from complete novice. They won't be wasted.

Maybe someday, instead of Taiji Mantis, you can develop a Mantis Tai Chi :)

[No_Know]

My impression was that taiji- could be applied to a pre-existing style much as drunken had been and the pre-existing style would be performed with taiji flavor, as-it-were. Although some just were not done. As to one and two push hands in minutes quite well, I think that people can be in relationships for years and not know the person they were with--the appearance might be great but the mechanics, and benefits theoretically were not. And to proceed with Looks-great but not studying the mechanics is a show and Proud and Fun, but absent of the truth of the act.

From External to Internal... I started Hung style Tiger-Crane-Bucksam Kong green and white covers book. went to blue book Shaolin Internal Kung-Fu, five animals and then Multi-color cover Hueng Family Five pattern (five animals as the Shaolin book. Hung and Shaolin referenced the same animals but wit different aspects. Big Note:The order of learning hit me Big.The Shao lin book had basic excerpts from what I refer to as Da Mo one seventy one. And had six exercises/styles of each animal. Heung Family Had straight form for that animal but linked the end to elevate conditioning and skill sort of thing. New Note: do the basics it not just doing that thing. The talk of foundation might refer to conditioning and strength only gained from practiced doing--by developing one set of conditioned response I can rely on a quicker start time when reacting to something different but that will follow that conditioned course. And with the foundation as with tree roots the tree trunk. From a practiced established tree trunk-strong branches.-No_Know

...Shaolin went Dragon, Snake, Tiger, Leopard, Crane. Five pattern went Tiger Leopard, Dragon, Snake, Crane. The Shaolin went with Spirit Breath Bones-Tendons, Ligaments/...sort-of-way. Five Pattern--Strength, Power,Grappling, Sneak attack,~Intimidation.

When I heard about chi I looked at the big three then- The Internal arts-Tai ji chuan was popular so I stayed away from that. I might have come to Pa Kua Chang first liked to greatly--the Original school with animal transitions Bear Phoenix Unicorn? Monkey Hawk Dragon [not in this order] But starting with Single palm Change and then Double Plam Change. There was an instruction that might benefit your study of other people's study in their journey--it said that the Snake change is sometimes called the Crane. The name doesn't matter[the book said] The technique does (so learn it.-ish.-No_Know

I was all about the internal while practicing the external. I cheated my external practice not getting its full benefit of muscles and strength and powerful, yet I liked the result way nice for me go through External motions but have Internal mechanics-ish.

I went on to attempt a Breathing of my own--Ernie Moore Jr.'s Kung-Fu (attempt) Squirrel. I noticed after two decades I could use the hard of External--it can literaly hold my flesh in place and fast quick hard has a place in breathing and moving; getting me through where soft gets bogged down.

If you were all thought you'd have no body, not even a brain for it too is physical. Losing the vehicle through which to transmit your self you lose yourself. If you were a body with no thought, emotion or soul you'd be a corpse/stump/ soulless mass...Internal and External seem to benefit from each other however one should learn their parts completely and separately. Combining while learning is as attaching ether to nothing--doing without knowing...Without a sticky frictioned foundation, sticky doesn't stick.

No_Know

[Lucas]

Internal and external are simply labels used to describe communalities and differences between training methods.

At the end of the day a martial artist, in large part, are students of movement. Efficiency, applicability, and control are what every martial artist strives to have in their movements.

As the old saying goes; All roads lead to Rome.

In this case Rome is your training goals.

The way i see it, there are 3 goals for a martial artist. Some aim for all three some go for just one.

These are:

Combat proficiency
Health and body mind awareness
Improved quality of life

It doesnt matter what label or "road" you use, all "styles" can get you to Rome provided you have the desire, drive and dedication to see your journey through until you quit or you die.

/step

[YMAA_com]

There's a saying:
"External arts train from external to internal. Internal arts train from internal to external."

Eventually, as Dale and Lucas are saying, there is one body.

We don't get to decide what internal or external means. They are clear concepts devised long ago.

An external art is like Shaolin. Train the physical body to punch and kick with brute force, and withstand blows with conditioning. External styles use hard jing, which is like getting hit by a car. I was too old, injured, and lame for Shaolin at age 30, so I switched to tai Chi.

Internal arts train qigong. Increase the quantity of Qi, improve the quality of circulation. Use soft whipping power to strike vital points, like Tai Chi. Internal styles use soft jing, which is like getting stabbed through your internal organs.

Eventually they both reach the same goal, or so I have read, but have barely actually seen. "kung fu is kung fu."
(My Tai Chi also sucks. I went to school to learn Qigong anyway in the first place, to stop getting sick.)

[Miqi]

There's a saying:
"External arts train from external to internal. Internal arts train from internal to external."

Eventually, as Dale and Lucas are saying, there is one body.


Yes but those are just words. Everyone is saying 'whole body' now - it's just a trivialised term used to describe the same old failed methods, and as a cop out for the otherwise useless techniques people demonstrate. One is expected to 'see' 'whole body power' or else, like the Emperor's new clothes, be called an idiot. Whole body power means something in yiquan, and in high quality versions of other CMA, but that meaning has been parasitised by all the same all frauds now.




We don't get to decide what internal or external means. They are clear concepts devised long ago.

This kind of fetishisation of an illusory past is pointless in my view. For one, you don't really know what people in the past thought - you only have the version of it peddled to day, mostly by people of very low level, end even then, it's just your interpretation of what they say. But for two, these ideas aren't dead and fixed, they are 'active' for people actively trying to unfold real insight. They are active, changing, growing concepts which mean different things - or rather, which increase in both simplicity and implication as you understand them. Nothing could really be simpler than the idea that 'internal' really means that you have to proceed via intuitive exploration and insight. But the implications are astounding - and very worrying for those whose 'systems' and position are threatened by this.




An external art is like Shaolin. Train the physical body to punch and kick with brute force, and withstand blows with conditioning. External styles use hard jing, which is like getting hit by a car. I was too old, injured, and lame for Shaolin at age 30, so I switched to tai Chi.


One can see 'external' in these terms - but as you have done here, it really just serves to set up some kind of aristocracy, with so 'tai chi' above Shaolin. To me, that is the most trivial use of the term. In fact, where 'internal' means intuitive knowledge, 'external' means following trainign programmes, copying movements, learning from others, videos, styles, coaches etc. It is the combination of these, I would urge you to consider, that opens up real knowledge of wushu.




Internal arts train qigong. Increase the quantity of Qi, improve the quality of circulation. Use soft whipping power to strike vital points, like Tai Chi. Internal styles use soft jing, which is like getting stabbed through your internal organs.

Eventually they both reach the same goal, or so I have read, but have barely actually seen. "kung fu is kung fu."
(My Tai Chi also sucks. I went to school to learn Qigong anyway in the first place, to stop getting sick.)

Actually, they don't both lead to the same goal - or rather, that saying is meaningless. The only goals achieved are individual ones - yours, mine, etc. In most cases, I rather suspect, both tai chi training and Saholin, outside of the elite schools, leads to nothing.

[Miqi]

Internal and external are simply labels used to describe communalities and differences between training methods.

Or, might it not be that that's just what they mean to you?



At the end of the day a martial artist, in large part, are students of movement. Efficiency, applicability, and control are what every martial artist strives to have in their movements.


That's not true at all. Most martial artists don't strive for these things - if they did, they would soon evolve real insight into 'internal'. Why people train in martial arts varies, but by far the most common reasons are ego, status, illusion and fear. The 'four great pests' of wushu.




As the old saying goes; All roads lead to Rome.


Similarly, evey single one of them also leads away from it. People don't give enough thought to that, in my view.





In this case Rome is your training goals.

The way i see it, there are 3 goals for a martial artist. Some aim for all three some go for just one.

These are:

Combat proficiency
Health and body mind awareness
Improved quality of life

It doesnt matter what label or "road" you use, all "styles" can get you to Rome provided you have the desire, drive and dedication to see your journey through until you quit or you die.

/step

True enough, people find precisely what they want. Which is why there are so many people with empty force and meaningless 'whole body' skills. 'Combat proficiency' is just something most people pay lip servce to. Their goals for begininng martial arts are far more trivial. None more than mine.

[Lucas]

everything i type here s purely from my experience and based on my opinion and humblingly little knowledfe. In a lot of good 'internal' or 'external' cma schools you will a fair amount of cross over. In longfist for example you can find schools that incorporate qigong, Controlled sensitivity drills, medicinal training, and other forms of specific internal cultivation methods. Likewise, imo, the best taiji shcools will have at least one heavy bag, and some free weights and hard regular contact sparring.

Keep in mind i view all martial arts first through a combat lense.

[YouKnowWho]

In longfist for example you can find schools that incorporate qigong, ...

It's so funny that I had learned my qigong 大内呼吸法 (Da Nai Hu Xi Fa) from my longfist system instead of from my Taiji or XingYi systems.

[Miqi]

everything i type here s purely from my experience and based on my opinion and humblingly little knowledfe. In a lot of good 'internal' or 'external' cma schools you will a fair amount of cross over. In longfist for example you can find schools that incorporate qigong, Controlled sensitivity drills, medicinal training, and other forms of specific internal cultivation methods. Likewise, imo, the best taiji shcools will have at least one heavy bag, and some free weights and hard regular contact sparring.

Keep in mind i view all martial arts first through a combat lense.

I don't know what 'internal cultivation' means. After a very long time of listening to people say they have it, or that others have it, I have yet to meet or see anyone who can demonstrate what it actually means. As far as I can tell, it simply means 'you are an ignorant idiot if you can't see the internal cultivation clearly demonstrated here'.

[MarathonTmatt]

I don't know what 'internal cultivation' means. After a very long time of listening to people say they have it, or that others have it, I have yet to meet or see anyone who can demonstrate what it actually means. As far as I can tell, it simply means 'you are an ignorant idiot if you can't see the internal cultivation clearly demonstrated here'.

These guys "have it" :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZFo8-JqzSCM&feature=player_detailpage

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GuHs_mhg9Nk&feature=player_detailpage

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZblzqEBwQRA&feature=player_detailpage

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dN1FYAisi94&feature=player_detailpage

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tdFMTAl0Q9k&feature=player_detailpage

[Miqi]

These guys "have it" :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZFo8-JqzSCM&feature=player_detailpage

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GuHs_mhg9Nk&feature=player_detailpage

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZblzqEBwQRA&feature=player_detailpage

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dN1FYAisi94&feature=player_detailpage

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tdFMTAl0Q9k&feature=player_detailpage

They can keep it. That aside, this is the other thing I've noticed - 'proofs' by analogy, either to other things, or to other people/skill sets. Which aren't proofs at all, but rather, simply stealing other people's credibility and spuriously bolting it onto themselves or their hero/master. But, whatver, as the young folks say.

[Bob Ashmore]

But that was a LONG time ago.
I started out training Karate when I was eight years old. I took classes at the local community center. I couldn't, not even to save my life, tell you what style of Karate it was. I only remember the teachers first name so that doesn't help any. Not that it matters. I took those classes for a couple of years, eventually earning a "brown belt" but not really learning much in the way of fighting. It was all kata, really, with only enough basic punches, blocks and kicks thrown in to keep us kids interested.
I only stopped going when the teacher stopped teaching at the community center as I enjoyed it quite a bit.
I didn't do anything else until I was 13 or so, when a good friend of mine started training in Tae Kwon Do. He seemed to be having a lot of fun so I convinced my father to pay for some classes there. Again, I don't know if there was a particular "style" name for what I learned. I wasn't really all that interested in that kind of thing at the time. Master Yu was very nice but I rarely saw him, I trained with several American teachers in his system, eventually reaching a blue belt status in his system, which did not correlate to the systems I see now so I can't really compare it to anything meaningful. Master Yu was ex Korean military and taught the TKD as he learned it from them, not the "sport" kind. For the record I have no beef with sport TKD at all and neither did he. We sparred regularly with the group down the street and we all had a lot of respect for each other. Military TKD was what he knew so that's what he taught us, along with a healthy respect for ALL styles of martial arts. He tolerated absolutely ZERO disrespect towards anyone, actually.
I trained TKD with Master Yu until I was 17 which is when he retired and the school closed down. Most folks went to the group down the street after that but I couldn't afford to do so.
Shortly before Master Yu retired I participated in a tournament where I got my ass handed to me by a guy who came in all by himself and was using what he called "Tai Chi Chuan". I'd never heard of it before, don't know his name, don't know which style he used and it doesn't matter. All I know is he stomped me flatter than a pancake and did it faster than anyone I'd ever been up against.
I wanted to learn what he knew, however I couldn't find out anything about Tai Chi Chuan.
This was long before the internet and I was a poor boy with few resources.
The library had some books that mentioned that art but nothing about it, just that it existed and some very faint details about its origins.
So I let my training languish for a number of years.
Flash forward to 1985, so about six years later, I was standing in line at a grocery store. I was bored and so I was reading the fliers posted on the cork board.
Imagine my surprise to see a flier that said, "Tai Chi Chuan taught in the Tradtional Manner: Wu's Tai Chi Chuan Academy is now taking students".
That was it. Nothing else but a line of those cut outs at the bottom where you pulled the phone number off to take with you.
I did and called the number as soon as I got home.
One training session with Sifu Britt and I was hooked. After I meet Si Kung Eddie Wu and trained with him at my first seminar I was even more hooked.
That was a LONG time, a whole bunch of personal insight and another whole style of TCC ago for me.
However, my only real motivation to pick up TCC didn't have anything to do with "internal vs. external" (let's get ready to RUMBLE!!!!!) at all.
My motivation was much more simple than that:
The guy kicked my ass in record time. I wanted to learn how to do what he did to me so I could do that to other people.
Simple as that. No philosophical meaning or deep rooted desire to learn to fire magic chi balls out of my arse.
Which is good, because I never did learn how to do that.

Hope this helps the original poster in some way.

Bob Ashmore

[YouKnowWho]

Keep in mind i view all martial arts first through a combat lense.
Me too.

This Qi discussion just bother me quite a bit. Allow me to ask a simple question. If Qi works in combat, do you think Chinese government would find the best Qi masters in China to train their

- Olympic boxing team,
- Olympic Judo team,
- Olympic wrestling team,
- soldiers,
- police force,
- secret service,
- ...?

I had a long discussion on this subject with Chinese Olympic Judo/wrestling coach 王德英Wang De-Yin in Beijing Physical Education University many years ago. This was what he said, "If Qi works in Judo/wrestling, what do you think that I'm still doing here?"

To say that "Qi works in combat" is the same as to say "Chinese government is stupid". Since China has endless supply of Qi masters, it's shame to see that Chinese government cannot make a good usage out of it.

[Lucas]

To me, all styles have 'internal cultivation'. I put pretty much any labels i dont particularly subscribe to in quotations, but use the label because they are common.

To me, internal cultivation, from a combative perspective, breaks down into training methods designed to internalize techniques. To me, this means that we maximize your reflex response to minimize time and incorporate as much full body movement as possible. Reinforced by training method specifically designed to help with this response.

But like i said i believe all styles do or should have this as part of the over all training. This is not to take away from internal health cultivation, but not every style will or even needs a big focus on organ health.

[YouKnowWho]

To me, all styles have 'internal cultivation'. I put pretty much any labels i dont particularly subscribe to in quotations, but use the label because they are common.

That's also why I always use "internal". To be honest, even today, I still don't understand the meaning of "self-cultivation" and "inner peace". To cultivate for what? Peace is peace. There is no inner peace and outer peace.

If your heart is not like a mirror, there is no way that any dust can attach on it, you don't need to clean it everyday. Water doesn't need to cultivate anything. It just flow wherever the ground is lower. If you just follow the law of nature, there is nothing that you will need to "cultivate".

[Lucas]

You just Tao'd my face.

[Miqi]

To me, internal cultivation, from a combative perspective, breaks down into training methods designed to internalize techniques. To me, this means that we maximize your reflex response to minimize time and incorporate as much full body movement as possible.

This pretty much confirms what I said a few posts back: that 'whole body movement' - in this case the slightly differently phrased 'full body movement' - is simply the new way of saying 'internal'.

However, I reject you interpretation, for the simple reason that 'internalise techniques' is just another way of saying 'learn techniques', and so negates the need for the term 'internal' entirely, and so doesn't actually add anything interesting or useful to the definition or discussion of the meaning of 'internal' other than to say that it is a meaningless euphemism for "learning a technique properly so that you can use it".

And what you mean by 'full body technique' in this case, therefore, appears to mean simply "learn a technique properly so that you can use it" - and so, again, is merely a pointless euphemism.

However, I do get that you're trying to tie this stuff to reality in some way - which I appreciate - and I also apreciate that that is often not very easy, as people do talk in circles with these terms. I'm not dissing what you say - just saying that I think there is more to it.

[YouKnowWho]

And what you mean by 'full body technique' in this case, ...

The way that I look at this is the "body unification" is the opposite of the "muscle group isolation". The human body is like 3 springs. Without training, all 3 springs will be compressed and released independently. With proper training, all 3 springs can be compressed and released at the same time. When I learn a move, I like to understand when I move my left leg like ..., I should move my right arm like ... This way I can coordinate one part of my body with another part of my body in order to achieve the 3 external harmonies (the 3 "internal" harmonies is a bit too abstract to me).

To me, there is only the right way and wrong way to do thing. There is no "internal" way or external way to do thing. Even today, when people talk about brute force, I still don't understand what they are talking about. I assume since I had trained Taiji since I was 7, things like relax, soft, sticky, yield, follow, ... are just common sense to me and there is nothing to brag about it.

[Dragonzbane76]

There is no "internal" way or external way to do thing.

I don't think anyone could have said it any better.

people get too wrapped up in this "internal/external" crap. Putting a label on something does not define it.

[Miqi]

I don't think anyone could have said it any better.

people get too wrapped up in this "internal/external" crap. Putting a label on something does not define it.

Well, maybe, but for me what you've said here is the second pitfall: the "oh it's all meaningless terminology let's not think about it", which is in many ways just another version of "all roads lead to Rome so just crack on with training and you'll get there".

I would argue, contrarily, that what matters is to find meanings for these terms that actually advance people in their training and/or understanding. To say that internal is a meaningless side-issue leads nowhere. To say that internal means whole body power leads no where. To say that internal means to finally access your own intuitive skills, and to begin to explore and work with the intuitive method, significantly helps people.

[Dragonzbane76]

"oh it's all meaningless terminology let's not think about it",

I never said it did not have meaning, only that its a dead horse that's been beaten to death and then again. It's the same old tired argument about internal this external that. I agree with dale and YKW, there is no internal/external. They are both in the same and one. To separate them is stupid because you cannot have one without the other. Giving them labels like "internal/external" is only that, a title that to me honestly is stupid.

[Miqi]

I never said it did not have meaning, only that its a dead horse that's been beaten to death and then again.

Again, many people think like this - but only because they're trapped into using the terms in the same old tired ways that lead nowhere, and give nothing useful. But I don't.



It's the same old tired argument about internal this external that.


Those arguements never really had any meaning - but they're always a potential doorway into realising how trivial and superficial most people's interpretations of these concepts are. Everyone is just on the threshold, all the time, of realising that wushu is at least half natural, innate ability, that has to be unfolded via intuitive method. But that will only appeal to like 0.01% of people who are otherwise claiming to have 'internal' skill. For various reasons. For most of the majority, it would mean a realisation and acceptance that they're actually very, very far off the path.



I agree with dale and YKW, there is no internal/external. They are both in the same and one.

The problem with these arguments is that they render the terms superfluous, and so cancel them out in a zero sum game - and so render the people who made this argument irrelevant to any further discussion of the meanings of the terms. I tell you, they are not one and the same; or rather, that conception is meaningless. But - who you 'agree' with will depend on where you're at, rather than the merits of the various standpoints.




To separate them is stupid because you cannot have one without the other. Giving them labels like "internal/external" is only that, a title that to me honestly is stupid.

Sometimes things seem stupid because we don't understand them. I tell you, what I say is not stupid, although I fully understand that it might seem like it is at first. However, that's because it's actually a very simple idea. It's impications, however, are potentially very deep indeed.

[No_Know]

Decades ago the talk was about Chinese Kung-Fus, only which meant there were only three in popular knowledge- Hsing-I Ch'uan, Bagua Ch'uan, Tai Chi C'huan. That some blended things came-out or people didn't know what the terms were referring to and so made-up or interpreted for them selves the meanings. Internal or External Are labels, to how the practice begins, if it switches later is not in the mix.

No Know

[Miqi]

Decades ago the talk was about Chinese Kung-Fus, only which meant there were only three in popular knowledge- Hsing-I Ch'uan, Bagua Ch'uan, Tai Chi C'huan. That some blended things came-out or people didn't know what the terms were referring to and so made-up or interpreted for them selves the meanings. Internal or External Are labels, to how the practice begins, if it switches later is not in the mix.

No Know

Deciphering your meaning is not easy - but I think you're issuing the same old chestnut that one begins with external and then goes to internal training. If this is indeed what you're saying then it just goes into the 'obscuritanism' box with most other 'definitions', in that it doesn't actually describe, mean or explain anything. It's just a trick of words that hides the fact that you haven't actually defined either term - it hides this by saying that you move from one to the other. What that move actually entails is never quite explained.

However, what people usually mean by this, as far as I can tell, is that they've moved onto a less strenuous training regime, but instead of acknowledging that they're now on their way to an even lower level, they pretend that they've moved to a 'higher' level of training, so called 'internal' training, lol.

[Dragonzbane76]

nice passive aggressive stance you have there.

[No_Know]

Miqi, thank you for trying to understand what I was saying. Deciphering my meaning. Let's try a more external approach...No. You took the meaning Wrong.

Decades ago External was only applied to Chinese Kung-Fus. Shao-lin kung fu, animal styles and the five families.

External kung-fus used, muscles dynamic tension and forced speed. Once these were addressed and mastered to some point. Including conditioning by bruising skin-muscle and calases to the skin. Sometimes needing medicines and ointments. There might have been training that got provided later involving softer trainings of breathing tactics, rhythm/pacing, relaxing.

Internal was only Hsing-I Ch'uan, Bagua Ch'uan, T'ai Chi Ch'uan. These start with a blend of moving and breathing or moving and pacing but certainly Internal started slow. One thinking-perception and familiarizing the coordination slowly makes a foundation of coordination. If one slowly adds speed so that later one moves fast with high coordination and deft action by start slow build on slow to add speed until one is very fast.

Internal might have trained relax with attack. Relax with block. This reduces damage taken and means a person can fight longer.

But Internal was specific. External was specific . Later people seemed to use the words but no-know the meanings or back-grounds and made-up meanings. People who came later picked-up the made-up Don't-know-the-real-answer meanings and we are where we are with philosophical views using what was once general definite terms, applying them to styles that were not talked about nor originally included. And if styles were created recently (thirty years or so) they are of course different and should not be compared or described with the older general terms External-Internal that was used for things hundreds of years old.

[ShaolinDan]

nice passive aggressive stance you have there.

That's the real taiji. :rolleyes:

This discussion is one that comes up every few months. To me "internal" and "external" are just lenses we can put on our training. Just like sometimes we may focus on throwing skills and other times we may focus on striking skills, or one day work upper body strength and another day work legs... I can make my cross more powerful by doing strength training and hitting the heavy bag and I can make it more powerful by working on my body mechanics and breath control. To optimize I have to do all of it. Every martial artist works on all of these. The only real differences come down to proportion.
Usually we study "external" styles at my school (shaolin, longfist, eagle claw), today we worked taiji push hands. The skills are the same...just in the push hands, we work with a speed and a rule set that emphasizes structure, instead of one that allows speed, power, and adaptability to compensate for weak structure. Ultimately we have to have it all to really reach a high level.
To me the internal/external labels make much more sense as training approaches than as style designations...Shaolin kung fu is the classic example of "external," yet without internal work, it isn't real Shaolin. And, as Bawang will point out :), "real taiji lifts weights."
Looking at the forms and jibengong, it's easy to see why taiji is considered internal, but after studying tongbeiquan for three months, I really couldn't tell you why it's considered an "internal" style...probably just to feel special. :)
But yeah..every martial artist should train speed and power, and every martial artist should train mechanics...so...?

[Miqi]

nice passive aggressive stance you have there.

Well, if something is falling, give it a push.

[Dragonzbane76]

Well, if something is falling, give it a push.

this argument/discussion about external-internal has fell over and been laying on the ground rotting for a long time.

[Miqi]

Miqi, thank you for trying to understand what I was saying. Deciphering my meaning. Let's try a more external approach...No. You took the meaning Wrong.

Decades ago External was only applied to Chinese Kung-Fus. Shao-lin kung fu, animal styles and the five families.

External kung-fus used, muscles dynamic tension and forced speed. Once these were addressed and mastered to some point. Including conditioning by bruising skin-muscle and calases to the skin. Sometimes needing medicines and ointments. There might have been training that got provided later involving softer trainings of breathing tactics, rhythm/pacing, relaxing.

Internal was only Hsing-I Ch'uan, Bagua Ch'uan, T'ai Chi Ch'uan. These start with a blend of moving and breathing or moving and pacing but certainly Internal started slow. One thinking-perception and familiarizing the coordination slowly makes a foundation of coordination. If one slowly adds speed so that later one moves fast with high coordination and deft action by start slow build on slow to add speed until one is very fast.

Internal might have trained relax with attack. Relax with block. This reduces damage taken and means a person can fight longer.

But Internal was specific. External was specific . Later people seemed to use the words but no-know the meanings or back-grounds and made-up meanings. People who came later picked-up the made-up Don't-know-the-real-answer meanings and we are where we are with philosophical views using what was once general definite terms, applying them to styles that were not talked about nor originally included. And if styles were created recently (thirty years or so) they are of course different and should not be compared or described with the older general terms External-Internal that was used for things hundreds of years old.

This explanation is in the cateogry of "internal equals soft, external equals hard". I reject this explanation because it's so trivial - it makes the terms 'internal' and 'external' utterly pointless: they are simply euphemisms for 'soft' and 'hard', hence, one might as well just say 'soft' and 'hard'.

If, indeed, as you claim, there were people in the past who made this explanation and claimed that it was the 'real' explanation, then their insight was tirvial and pointless, and leads to nothing in the end. Or rather, it leads to the state of so called CMA as it is now - i.e. trivial and pointless, for the most part.

[Miqi]

this argument/discussion about external-internal has fell over and been laying on the ground rotting for a long time.

True - but I don't make any of those old arguments, nor do I have any truck with them. (I.e. my 'passive aggressive' stance). Those arguments were dead because the people wh made them followed training paths that were dead. But nevertheless, the ideas that they parrotted were reflections of genuinely useful ideas and insights, just waiting to be reclaimed with a bit of thought. However, as long as you continue to think in their terms (the dead, that is), then the terms will seem dead too.

[Miqi]

That's the real taiji. :rolleyes:

This discussion is one that comes up every few months. To me "internal" and "external" are just lenses we can put on our training. Just like sometimes we may focus on throwing skills and other times we may focus on striking skills, or one day work upper body strength and another day work legs... I can make my cross more powerful by doing strength training and hitting the heavy bag and I can make it more powerful by working on my body mechanics and breath control. To optimize I have to do all of it. Every martial artist works on all of these. The only real differences come down to proportion.
Usually we study "external" styles at my school (shaolin, longfist, eagle claw), today we worked taiji push hands. The skills are the same...just in the push hands, we work with a speed and a rule set that emphasizes structure, instead of one that allows speed, power, and adaptability to compensate for weak structure. Ultimately we have to have it all to really reach a high level.
To me the internal/external labels make much more sense as training approaches than as style designations...Shaolin kung fu is the classic example of "external," yet without internal work, it isn't real Shaolin. And, as Bawang will point out :), "real taiji lifts weights."
Looking at the forms and jibengong, it's easy to see why taiji is considered internal, but after studying tongbeiquan for three months, I really couldn't tell you why it's considered an "internal" style...probably just to feel special. :)
But yeah..every martial artist should train speed and power, and every martial artist should train mechanics...so...?

In essence, what you're arguing here is that 'internal' refers to 'improved structure', or 'working on structure' - which is a sub-category of the 'internal equals whole body power' bizz-phrase/explanation strand.

All of these 'explanations' are really just a shifting around of terms without ever really defining what they mean. It is not at all clear why 'structure' should be described as 'internal' - which tells me that 'structure' is simply one new buzz phrase that is replacing 'internal' as a rather unenlightening attempt to describe otherwise particularly unremarkable body mechanics in a way that makes them seem like something other than unremarkable movement that almost anyone could do. (Hence the need, so often, to have shills fly back at the master's magic touch).

[Dragonzbane76]

Those arguments were dead because the people wh made them followed training paths that were dead. But nevertheless, the ideas that they parrotted were reflections of genuinely useful ideas and insights, just waiting to be reclaimed with a bit of thought. However, as long as you continue to think in their terms (the dead, that is), then the terms will seem dead too.

passive aggressive and putting words in people's mouths.

I have no issue with your "search" for what ever truth's you seem intent upon. All I'm saying to you is that this worn out record has been hashed and rehashed. If your looking for answer there are plenty of old threads you could sift through and delve into mythic "understands" with shamantic voodoo, no ones stopping you.

[ShaolinDan]

In essence, what you're arguing here is that 'internal' refers to 'improved structure', or 'working on structure' - which is a sub-category of the 'internal equals whole body power' bizz-phrase/explanation strand.

All of these 'explanations' are really just a shifting around of terms without ever really defining what they mean. It is not at all clear why 'structure' should be described as 'internal' - which tells me that 'structure' is simply one new buzz phrase that is replacing 'internal' as a rather unenlightening attempt to describe otherwise particularly unremarkable body mechanics in a way that makes them seem like something other than unremarkable movement that almost anyone could do. (Hence the need, so often, to have shills fly back at the master's magic touch).

Well...I wouldn't use quite the same words, but...pretty much. As far as my experience goes, "internal" training method is when you focus on mechanics, breath, and mind...the things you train in slow speed. And "external" training method is when you work on developing physical attributes, strength, speed...things you train at higher speed. And, no, it's nothing super special and inaccessible. The term "internal" is what? Like 150 years old? Whoopedy doo...that's nothing in the time frame of combat.
Are you waiting for someone to say, "Please, Miqi, tell us, what's the real internal?" 'Cause it ain't gonna happen on this forum.

[MarathonTmatt]

Would it be fair to say that what people label as "internal" and "external" are found in all good Kung Fu systems and styles? This could potentially be any style.

One of the patterns, or keys, I think of from the style I train while reading this thread is "Turning like wheels." I do not consider this to be an "internal" principle or an "external" principle but simply a principle that must be observed in the training. It could be expressed in many techniques both offensively and defensively. But whatever the technique you need the proper execution and co-ordination to do it the "right way" (as others were saying earlier in this thread.) Without the skill-set, the kung fu is not complete.

[Miqi]

passive aggressive and putting words in people's mouths.

I have no issue with your "search" for what ever truth's you seem intent upon. All I'm saying to you is that this worn out record has been hashed and rehashed. If your looking for answer there are plenty of old threads you could sift through and delve into mythic "understands" with shamantic voodoo, no ones stopping you.



I am always looking for deeper understanding. However, in this case, I'm not here to ask a question, but to answer it. What I am saying on this subject hasn't been said before, in any of these threads - or if it has, it's been long forgotten and overlooked. And what I'm saying is the precise opposite of the voodoo shamantics we've had peddled to us for so long; what I am saying is simply that 'internal' means that a major apsect of your training should be ann intuitive exploration of wushu, following your own ideas, abilities, insights etc. and that without following that method, you will never really fulfil your potential. However, I wouldn't want to be accused of putting ideas into your head - it might make you might feel the need to tell me just what's wrong with me.

[Miqi]

Well...I wouldn't use quite the same words, but...pretty much. As far as my experience goes, "internal" training method is when you focus on mechanics, breath, and mind...the things you train in slow speed. And "external" training method is when you work on developing physical attributes, strength, speed...things you train at higher speed. And, no, it's nothing super special and inaccessible. The term "internal" is what? Like 150 years old? Whoopedy doo...that's nothing in the time frame of combat.
Are you waiting for someone to say, "Please, Miqi, tell us, what's the real internal?" 'Cause it ain't gonna happen on this forum.

I don't know what the 'real' internal is in that sense; I only know that all the other explanations are 'dead', and don't achieve anything at all. I only know that 'internal' is really just what Wang Xiang Zhai described as 'proceeding via intuitive practice'. I haven't waited for you to ask this, I've said it many times - but thanks for the hard taste on my ego.

[Miqi]

Would it be fair to say that what people label as "internal" and "external" are found in all good Kung Fu systems and styles? This could potentially be any style.


No, for two reasons. One, it's not clear what a 'good' kung fu style is - and this is then usuallly a tautological argument in that people will answer "one that has both internal and external aspects".

Secondly, there aren't many schools which encourage intutive exploration of inate skill and insight - most encourage rigid adherence to form or externally imposed coaching practice. I think this is partly why people often feel the need to 'brealk' with their schools, so that they can finally begin to experiment a bit with their own ideas. Unfortunately, those people so often then try to impose those ideas yet again on others as a prison for body and mind, rathe than recognising that it's freedom of intuition that matters in the first place, and which has to be built into the training practice.



One of the patterns, or keys, I think of from the style I train while reading this thread is "Turning like wheels." I do not consider this to be an "internal" principle or an "external" principle but simply a principle that must be observed in the training. It could be expressed in many techniques both offensively and defensively. But whatever the technique you need the proper execution and co-ordination to do it the "right way" (as others were saying earlier in this thread.) Without the skill-set, the kung fu is not complete.

This is the usual line, but it's only half true which is the problem. Without 'you', in fact, wushu is not complete. Wushu only exists as the 'great achievement' that is you, and the combination of your training method, insight, ability, discipline etc. In the sclerotic traditional systems as they've become now, the 'style' and religious discipline to the school and master have been massively over emphasised, leading to low level outputs. Without you, the wushu is not complete - but it's not enough for 'you' just to be there, at the club. 'You' have to be actively engaged with the material in a way other than just external copying.

[Dragonzbane76]

I am always looking for deeper understanding. However, in this case, I'm not here to ask a question, but to answer it. What I am saying on this subject hasn't been said before, in any of these threads - or if it has, it's been long forgotten and overlooked. And what I'm saying is the precise opposite of the voodoo shamantics we've had peddled to us for so long; what I am saying is simply that 'internal' means that a major apsect of your training should be ann intuitive exploration of wushu, following your own ideas, abilities, insights etc. and that without following that method, you will never really fulfil your potential. However, I wouldn't want to be accused of putting ideas into your head - it might make you might feel the need to tell me just what's wrong with me.

kudos for looking deeper. you say your not hear to ask a question but to answer, well most people in the TCMA community will not listen because they are stuck in a paradoxical sink hole. Honestly I agree with your "answer" but it has been said before by many people, problem is the ones that most people listen to are the mythics and dogmatic. I'm not an internal guy if you haven't noticed. ;) I don't grudge anyone for their views only that there are many many many paths and not to force oneself on others. Many problems in the world besides the internal/external debate that have sprung from that. as you seemed to have dug a little and found something about myself on here (you brought up pai lum) it took me as a statement of looking for something to point a finger at. no grudge knowing something about someone just struck me as a strawman thing.

[Miqi]

kudos for looking deeper. you say your not hear to ask a question but to answer, well most people in the TCMA community will not listen because they are stuck in a paradoxical sink hole. Honestly I agree with your "answer" but it has been said before by many people, problem is the ones that most people listen to are the mythics and dogmatic. I'm not an internal guy if you haven't noticed. ;) I don't grudge anyone for their views only that there are many many many paths and not to force oneself on others. Many problems in the world besides the internal/external debate that have sprung from that. as you seemed to have dug a little and found something about myself on here (you brought up pai lum) it took me as a statement of looking for something to point a finger at. no grudge knowing something about someone just struck me as a strawman thing.

I didn't do any digging, I just looked on your profile and it siad 'Pai Lum' - then I asked if that was what you did. However, your insitinct is spot on - if you had said yes, then I would have considered you an unreliable source, that's true.

I don't know what an 'internal guy' is. However, I know that these debates always include people who say 'it's not worth flogging this dead horse'. The weird thing is, you're actually an essential part of these debates - there HAS to be someone who says that, lol - you're not 'outside' of the horse flogging, you're an essential part of it.

But what this boils down to is you don't think the debate is worth having (other than to say that, of course ;) ), and I do, because I think it's not pointess - I think every so often someone is at the threshold of just understanding this stuff. If Wang Xiang Zhai and a few others hadn't bothered to enter the debate (which was precisely the same in 1930s China, interestingly enough) then I wouldn't have 'got' the meaninng, and moved on to a better uderstanding. It's worth it, as far as I'm concerned.

[Dale Dugas]

lets end the silly debate.

Train more, post less and forget these silly labels which are not accurate. There is no such thing as internal or external. There only is complete structure.

enough said.

[ShaolinDan]

a major apsect of your training should be ann intuitive exploration of wushu, following your own ideas, abilities, insights etc. and that without following that method, you will never really fulfil your potential. However, I wouldn't want to be accused of putting ideas into your head - it might make you might feel the need to tell me just what's wrong with me.

I totally agree with this statement (as does my teacher, who was just speaking about this at the end of class yesterday), but I feel like when you call that "internal," it's redefining the term... "internalization" maybe. But, whatever works for you is what really matters. Words are just tools to help us understand phenomena, as long as they help us, then we're using them right.

[Miqi]

lets end the silly debate.

Train more, post less and forget these silly labels which are not accurate. There is no such thing as internal or external. There only is complete structure.

enough said.

For you, the debate is silly, because the terms have nowhere else they can take you - well, you think they can't, and you're not open to the possibility that they can, which amounts to the same thing. So that way of thinking is dead and pointless to you.

As for 'complete structure', this is just the new term for 'internal' - i.e., a shift of terms, to describe what is otherwise not perceptible, or probably even real in any real sense - or at least, if it is, I can't see what it is that you do that could possibly be being described by this term. Which, I guess, means that it's something that I have to 'believe' is there - or worse yet, travel half way round the world to 'experience'. Right?

Bottom line - why are you even involved in the debate, if the debate is dead for you?

[Miqi]

I totally agree with this statement (as does my teacher, who was just speaking about this at the end of class yesterday), but I feel like when you call that "internal," it's redefining the term... "internalization" maybe. But, whatever works for you is what really matters. Words are just tools to help us understand phenomena, as long as they help us, then we're using them right.

For me, by 'internalization' is meant practicing something until it becomes second nature. In which case, as we all know, we can actually 'internalize' a lot of really bad habits and useless, pointless things. For me, 'internal' simply means that, by and large - and in harmony with good coaching and training methods designed to enhance this process - we can actually develop quite quickly if we explore our movement skills through a fairly free, intuitive and experimental method. The problem is that this is not quite what many people want from a kung fu class, so it's a bit more for a later point when all those forms are already learned and practiced a thousand times, and nothing is really progressing anymore. At that point, people might - just might - decide to set themselves a bit freer and start exploring what is that is naturally right for them.

Having said that, there is obviously more to it - I do believe, for example, that we have a much greater 'natural' ability than we think - i.e. that we are much more powerful than we generally think, especialy when we learn how to use our body more efficiently. And this is one of the reasons why people might want to do this.

[Dragonzbane76]

But what this boils down to is you don't think the debate is worth having (other than to say that, of course ), and I do, because I think it's not pointess

because I've had this debate hundreds of times and no one ever in the end from either side changes or moves from their mountain and your answer will not move anyone of them any further than they already have moved.

[Miqi]

because I've had this debate hundreds of times and no one ever in the end from either side changes or moves from their mountain and your answer will not move anyone of them any further than they already have moved.

To have had a debate hundreds of times and learned nothing is bound to make you think that there's nothing to learn. The problem is, there's no 'debate' between equally wrong viewpoints - so, you haven't really had any debates at all. Now that you actually have a real answer - one that has, actually moved many people forwards - you still haven't learned anything. That could be my fault, in failing to get across the significance of what I'm saying, or it could just be that the significance is lost on you. Or, I have to face it, it could be that what I'm saying has no significance for anyone else but me. Either way, if all you're saying is that you're worried about me wasting my time, then maybe you'd be better off worrying about why you're wasting your time telling me that I'm wasting my time.

[Miqi]

As many have pointed out, the usual definitions of ‘internal’ and ‘external’ have been discussed to death. Those old ways of thinking are, in fact, dead, in that they don’t really lead anywhere at all, except to posturing over arcane theory, usually to hide poor actual ability.

Following an implication of Wang Xiang Zhai (who actually said that he didn’t know what ‘internal’ meant) I argue that ‘internal’ really means that the real ‘Quan’ is not really in forms or techniques (which dismisses most schools from the equation, including most orthodox JKD), but in natural ability, which has to be ‘unfolded’ via intuitive practice.

I will say more about that in a moment. However, what I’m trying to get across here is that one of the very important aspects of ‘intuitive practice’ is the recognition that thinking about wushu is very important. As opposed to, for example, all those brute assertions of ‘shut up and practice’ and ‘kung fu is not in the mouth’ that people, usually of very low level, like to spout – presumably to prevent people actually thinking about the very low level of the person who said it.

Once one realises the significant power of actually engaging with their training in an intellectual way – i.e. with independent, genuine desire to think about what you’re doing and why – then the importance of ‘conceptual tools’ becomes clear. Conceptual tools are major resource of the intuitive method. One major conceptual tool is to realise that you’ve actually been told most of what you need to know, time and again, but never really realised the significance before. (For example, the realisation that ‘internal’ method really means ‘proceed via intuition’). The second conceptual tool is a bit more tricky. People in CMA are massively programmed to ‘appoint’ the expectation that terms like ‘internal’ have these massive meanings. And because the usual definition of ‘internal’ is spouted by frauds who’ve disguised their fraud by endless superficial doctrines about qi and meridians and internal force etc., these ‘expectations’ about what internal really means grow massive. When you hear the real truth, it seems like ‘Oh, jus that? Is that all? I already really knew that!’ – because the lie always grows massive – but by contrast, the real truth is often very simple.

It can take quite a lot to ‘dis-appoint’ these massive expectations, especially when one has bought into them for personal reasons. Most instructors, for example, are not going to let go of complex explanations, because that’s what they sell. For everyone else – i.e. for people who realise that the intuitive method is about ‘active’ personal engagement with training – there will be a sense of ‘dis-appointment’ when the moment of realisation comes, and the meaning of an idea – such as ‘internal’ – is revealed to be ‘oh, just that, I already knew that’. Of course you did – that’s the essence of the intuitive method.

But that’s only part of the equation. Seeing the significance in these ideas is quite another matter – and here those with fairly dull insight will pipe up again with ‘Just get on with training forget about all this philosophical clap trap’. The real truth, of course, is that it’s not philosophical clap trap, it’s just fairly simple ideas. I can't say that these ideas are 'true' - that's not how it works. What they are is 'active', in that they 'unfold' deeper meaning the more you understand them. Very often, as ideas (like internal and external) reveal themselves as straightforward, the more profound the implications become. Hence, it doesn't really matter if the ideas are 'true' in any historical or scientific sense - what matters is that they are 'active', and designed to prompt deeper insight, and in turn, for this to condition your training and lead to higher level ability. This is the essence of the intuitive method.

All of these implications were always present in these discussions, and in the theory of wushu that we inherited from the past – we just didn’t see the significance because we expected something massive that would stroke our egos and makes us ‘special’ if we learned it. And we also expected the training of wushi to be dead and static - as in, you learn this techniquem then that, etc., where as the intuitive method is an 'active' process of continually unfolding deeper insight, until you get to simple ideas with profound implications, and using this process to inform your training. This is quite difficult to do within a sclerotic 'system', and with a teacher who isn't skilled at facillitating this 'growth' of awareness and concomitant improvement in skill. The real truth is, the philosophical clap trap comes from those people who just want you to shut up and carry on buying what they are selling – the same old tired, pointless training regimes which led them to have to tell people to shut up and stop thinking in the end, just to prevent people from realising that they don’t really know the slightest think about wushu at all.

Anyway, intuitive practice does not mean have no teacher – it means that the real ‘dachengquan’ or – ‘great achievement fist’ is a process, not a style or a destination, although it is a continual ‘product’ – i.e. you. It’s an interactive process between training methods and intuitive exploration of potential and new ways of doing things. It’s ongoing – and so anyone who claims to have ‘learned’ a ‘style’ is very far from the real Quan, at least in terms of its most profound meaning. Again, that is a very great ‘dis-appointment’ to those who learned martial arts so they could rest their ego on it.

The next realisation is that while many claim to already follow this method, they mostly don't - they are fully trapped in the illusion of 'systems' and 'styles', which they then try to make work - which is not the same thing at all.

[Dragonzbane76]

Or, I have to face it, it could be that what I'm saying has no significance for anyone else but me.

hammer meet nail. I'm done with this conversation, you seem to want to come off condescending and I'm not all for that. You can put whatever you want out there but like I said the debate has been done a million times and your not special and what you've stated has been said. Not disagreeing with it because I take a more modern perspective myself, just your coming off like a d!ck.

peace

[Dale Dugas]

blah blah blah.

Post less, train more.

all you have to worry about.

[Miqi]

hammer meet nail. I'm done with this conversation, you seem to want to come off condescending and I'm not all for that. You can put whatever you want out there but like I said the debate has been done a million times and your not special and what you've stated has been said. Not disagreeing with it because I take a more modern perspective myself, just your coming off like a d!ck.

peace

Thanks for letting me know.

[Miqi]

blah blah blah.

Post less, train more.

all you have to worry about.

Think more, gain more. No worries.

[No_Know]

hammer meet nail. I'm done with this conversation, you seem to want to come off condescending and I'm not all for that. You can put whatever you want out there but like I said the debate has been done a million times and your not special and what you've stated has been said. Not disagreeing with it because I take a more modern perspective myself, just your coming off like a d!ck.

peace

On a thread about hard-soft, internal-external person put ..."coming off like a d!ck?" Perhaps that is some internal...I mean [modern terms] Total body release from intention and thought or intent thought expressed physically...

No_Know

[Miqi]

On a thread about hard-soft, internal-external person put ..."coming off like a d!ck?" Perhaps that is some internal...I mean [modern terms] Total body release from intention and thought or intent thought expressed physically...

No_Know

Well, I'll make the radical guess that he just meant what he said. My thought process is basically that once people realise that what I'm saying is completely correct, then their percpetion of how I said it will change as well - i.e. what seemed like being a **** is then seen as just rattling your cage a bit, to make people engage with the ideas on that emotional level where what we believe about wushu is very much tied up with what we want to believe about oursleves. But of course, any bully would say that, I guess.

[Dale Dugas]

What an ignorant statement.

"When people realize what I am saying is correct".

LMAO.

As I said before son. Talk and post less and train more.

Go back to standing as well as train your Mo Ca Bu and Shi Li, as you appear to not have done as much as you think.

That you do not understand whole body/complete structure/Unified movement tells me you have not done enough

[Miqi]

What an ignorant statement.

"When people realize what I am saying is correct".

LMAO.

As I said before son. Talk and post less and train more.

Go back to standing as well as train your Mo Ca Bu and Shi Li, as you appear to not have done as much as you think.

That you do not understand whole body/complete structure/Unified movement tells me you have not done enough

Yes, well, I should have said that what I implied were 'my' ideas of course aren't - and that what I mean is, when people realise that these ideas are correct, it places a whole different context on people's apparent 'attitude'. Much like, for example, people used to, and still do, talk about Wang Xiang Zhai as being obnoxious, when in reality, he was just telling the truth. That people hated him for that says more about them than him.

I understand whole body structure - at least in its straightforward yiquan sense. I'm afraid that what you do, or mean by it, as you'll no doubt agree, is beyond my ken.

However, all the best in your training goals.

[Dale Dugas]

if you did you would not have posted what you did.

more standing, more mo ca bu and shili

less posting

[Dale Dugas]

Miqi is on ignore.

He has nothing to offer other than mouthboxing and telling people they are wrong and he is right.

[Miqi]

if you did you would not have posted what you did.

more standing, more mo ca bu and shili

less posting

It raises an interesting point - leaving aside how much training I do - but these things really aren't enough. The other side of the coin of the intuitive method is 'external' training. There really is, in this day and age, no easy way. There is no 'magic power' that will come to you from standing, and compensate for lack of other forms of training that are essential in this day and age, such as cardio, weights, flexibility, functional strength and technical coaching. (External, in this sense, I would class as things learned from, or copied from others, such as coaches - one can follow an intuitive method in cardio, functional strength etc.)

Secondly, the whole idea of 'shut up and train more' is suspicious to me. Why should anyone not discuss their ideas? What are you afraid of? That being by the by, the great danger in following your advice is that if one doesn't actuively engage one's intuition, and just follows the advice of 'traing more', there's no guarantee that what you train won't just be bad habits and pointless exercises drilled until they're internalised. It's actually essential to think, discuss, and engage one's training acitvely to avoid this. Not only that, it actually accelerates one's training. That's why break dancers can do more amazing stuff, and are fitter and stronger, in a year, than the average Western martial artist ever will be.

[Miqi]

Miqi is on ignore.

He has nothing to offer other than mouthboxing and telling people they are wrong and he is right.

Well, that's a shame. I feel you could have really learned something useful here - and I could have felt useful for once. But thanks for letting me know.

[bawang]

I suggest you take your magic yiquan stance to a boxing gym and try it out and contemplate deeply on the memory of your humiliation, it will change you like it changed me when I was a boy. its never too late to learn the lessons of youth.

[Miqi]

I suggest you take your magic yiquan stance to a boxing gym and try it out and contemplate deeply on the memory of your humiliation, it will change you like it changed me when I was a boy. its never too late to learn the lessons of youth.

It didn't change you though, did it.

[YMAA_com]

Something I notice about this conversation: everyone is saying a lot of great things that could be really helpful, especially to a newer student interested in the subject of internal arts, but somehow not quite connecting the dots. There's a lot of arguing although most of what everyone's saying is true/correct.

I think the problem is because we're really talking about three or four different topics, maybe without realizing.

First, its just not right to say the topic of internal/external is dead, or old news. Since this forum is called "Taijiquan and the Internal Martial Arts", it shouldn't bee taboo to discuss what that means. But, I get it. Its an age old argument about external vs internal, and we rarely see truly accomplished internal artists in the mainstream. But, that doesn't change the facts. I mentioned the traditional definition of internal/external above. Thats not my opinion; its the concept these arts were based on. Thats why I say we don't get to decide to change those definitions based on our opinions.

1. Its important to understand the difference between kinetic energy and metabolic energy. Kinetic energy is your structure/whole body power concept that is often emphasized above. Ideal alignment allows for maximum leverage and power emission, of course. But, that doesn't mean you're not also working with metabolic energy (Qi). Its not an either/or equation. Fai jing is based on Qi/Li, kinteic energy supported abundant Qi.

2. Someone mentioned internal cultivation. This refers to neigong, or qigong. Its not a myth, and its not very mystical or complex. Anyone who trains will go through essentially the same progression. It happens naturally over time, with repeated effort. First you increase your circulation by resolving tension and blockages, and you increase the quantity of energy in the body with exercise, meditation, nutrition, abstinence, etc all the components of qigong you read about. Initially, you feel nothing...then you feel an improved quality of life...then you feel gradual upticks in your energy levels...eventually you physically feel Qi in points and meridians at will...At some point you stop getting sick...and over time with continued practice, you eventually get to having "abundant" Qi by traditional standards, and move into intermediate/advanced cultivation, like siddhis and enlightenment and all that stuff few are interested in nowadays. Im 14 years into practice and it has been very beneficial.

3. All the talk about intuition/intent is kind of a mishmash of ideas, but there is clear talk about it in Qigong theory if you're interested in it. Its two separate topics. Your intention (Yi) leads energy in the body. Your intuition is related to your limbic system/subconscious mind.

I highly recommend anyone who is interested in internal arts practice some qigong, either from your martial arts style, or a simple medical qigong like the Eight Brocades, or even just sitting/standing meditation or yiquan, because no matter how adept at fighting we are, eventually it becomes all about our health, vitality, and longevity at some point in life, and inner cultivation can help in a lot of ways.

[Miqi]

Something I notice about this conversation: everyone is saying a lot of great things that could be really helpful, especially to a newer student interested in the subject of internal arts, but somehow not quite connecting the dots. There's a lot of arguing although most of what everyone's saying is true/correct.


Again, what's 'true' isn't the issue. Wushu is a process, and along that process, if we're genuinely looking for real understanding, then we change as well. What's 'true' is very dependent on our experiences and insight in a given period of training. All of these rather glib categorical meanings for 'internal' and 'external' are true in the limited sense that one can see how they could be used for those purposes. At a certain point, however, those are no longer the real meanings - and whether people articulate this through these terms, or just experience the process without naming it, internal means 'intuitive exploration and unfolding of native ability'.

What I believe makes this the truth (and I may be wrong) is not my ego (it's not even my idea), but its practical, empirical potential to fundamentally improve one's level and understanding, in any field. It is, in other words, just sports psychology - but one that appears to be embedded in traditional wushu practice. Rather interestingly.



I think the problem is because we're really talking about three or four different topics, maybe without realizing.


I think you're seeing the right thing, but not connecting the dots in the right way. It's not three or four different interpretations all at odds with one another - it's three or four different points on a continuum - on a process - that are all connected. And although it seems very egotistical to assert this - because I'm obviously implying that I'm further along the process than others - the reverse is true; what I'm saying is actually a profound simplification of the idea, so that one actually needs less, not more, of the magical stance and qi meridians and categories of styles. And I'm more right also because what I say is not culturallly specific, indicating - to me at least - that it's a general principle.




First, its just not right to say the topic of internal/external is dead, or old news. Since this forum is called "Taijiquan and the Internal Martial Arts", it shouldn't bee taboo to discuss what that means. But, I get it. Its an age old argument about external vs internal, and we rarely see truly accomplished internal artists in the mainstream.


Have you noticed, though, how weird it is that people feel the need to intervene and tell everyone that it's dead, and that they should shut up. I think that that's partly because it's frightening to move onto a different part of the process - it would entail certain sacrifices, for example giving up thinking of oneself as practicing - or teaching - an aristorcratic 'internal style', or, from the other side, the danger of there possibly being more to wushu than just learning forms and hitting pads. In which case, other things might be at stake that people are unminded to let go of.




But, that doesn't change the facts. I mentioned the traditional definition of internal/external above. Thats not my opinion; its the concept these arts were based on. Thats why I say we don't get to decide to change those definitions based on our opinions.


Well set yourself free then, because you can do what you want. Yao Xong Zun thought that internal meant 'Chinese' and external meant 'foreign'. Change everything, including the terms, until you get to the real wushu - and don't stop. I'm not going to. Ideas from the past of wushu are often coded but the meaning is hidden in full view - this debate is a perfect example. Either way, what are those tired old definitions giving you? Zero.



1. Its important to understand the difference between kinetic energy and metabolic energy. Kinetic energy is your structure/whole body power concept that is often emphasized above. Ideal alignment allows for maximum leverage and power emission, of course. But, that doesn't mean you're not also working with metabolic energy (Qi). Its not an either/or equation. Fai jing is based on Qi/Li, kinteic energy supported abundant Qi.


Contrary to the people who keep teling me to do more standing and go to the gym, I'm in very good shape for a middle aged man, and full to the brim with life giving qi. However, all of this qi talk is just a collapse back into arcane theory. It takes on a life of its own, until noone can even just simply demonstrate a simple punch on a punch bag that shows 'this is how we do whole body movement in our style'. Look at my explanation - I'm only an amateur, but I can show my - almost too Yao-line - whole body technique to the whole world, without recourse to theory of any kind. And people can see my movement, that involves - amazingly - most of my actual body, lol - If people cannot do that, then no matter how poor and inferior my level is (which they're happy to point out, much to my embarrassment) it's at least real. It's not just something that I say you must believe is there - and indeed, I break it down and show you what I mean by it (or rather, pretty much as it is meant in the kind of yiquan that I'm most infliuenced by).




2. Someone mentioned internal cultivation. This refers to neigong, or qigong. Its not a myth, and its not very mystical or complex. Anyone who trains will go through essentially the same progression. It happens naturally over time, with repeated effort. First you increase your circulation by resolving tension and blockages, and you increase the quantity of energy in the body with exercise, meditation, nutrition, abstinence, etc all the components of qigong you read about. Initially, you feel nothing...then you feel an improved quality of life...then you feel gradual upticks in your energy levels...eventually you physically feel Qi in points and meridians at will...At some point you stop getting sick...and over time with continued practice, you eventually get to having "abundant" Qi by traditional standards, and move into intermediate/advanced cultivation, like siddhis and enlightenment and all that stuff few are interested in nowadays. Im 14 years into practice and it has been very beneficial.


This is a description of a process, in terms that resonate with you. It's not 'true' - it's just a mental model that you find useful. Calling it 'internal cultivation' is just another stage along the path - for instance, once one realises that all of this was just a meaningless mental model, one moves on to a deeper understanding. However, people cling to these models for dear life, and they don't get any further. And they cling to it because this theory, and being an adept in its mysteries, is now part of their identity. And so what seemed like knowledge was really just a fairly obvious trap. What you describe will still be there, long after the theory is discarded, or recognised for what it really is.



3. All the talk about intuition/intent is kind of a mishmash of ideas, but there is clear talk about it in Qigong theory if you're interested in it. Its two separate topics. Your intention (Yi) leads energy in the body. Your intuition is related to your limbic system/subconscious mind.


Trivial arcana. I've never yet seen anyone who said this who could actually move with correct whole body connectivity.



I highly recommend anyone who is interested in internal arts practice some qigong, either from your martial arts style, or a simple medical qigong like the Eight Brocades, or even just sitting/standing meditation or yiquan, because no matter how adept at fighting we are, eventually it becomes all about our health, vitality, and longevity at some point in life, and inner cultivation can help in a lot of ways.

This is the final lie, of course. Actually, without a real, martial goal, the rest is trivial magic stance theory, as Bawang might say without really understanding (because that'll be the day, when he actually gets from behind his keyboard, ceases sniping, and goes down to a fighter's gym). Qigong, standing, meditation - these are just minor aspects of a much bigger whole - and their whole, entire purpose is to unfold intuitive skill. That you didn't know this, yet thought to lecture me on the 'truth', is kind of like the bitter, very lonely irony that I live with when engaging in these discussions.

[YouKnowWho]

This is how "internal" is superior than external.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nVdANNX2zP4

[Miqi]

Even more amusing, is that they take the fact that Shaolin monks can't do this to be evidence that this is real:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?annotation_id=annotation_768753&feature=iv&src_vid=nVdANNX2zP4&v=_7urMN0avwo

...not really thinking that, actually, no one can do this. Well - maybe if it was some giant muscle man.

[bawang]

It didn't change you though, did it.

if you try visiting a boxing gym and apply your magic yiquan, maybe it decrease your gay by 40%.

[wenshu]

the bitter, very lonely irony that I live

pretty much

[Miqi]

pretty much

It's not easy being an embarrassment. But there again, an embarrassment is not the worst thing that I could possibly be in this martial arts world.

Regardless of which, what really matters is whether the ideas hold water for people who are genuinely interested in wushu.

[wenshu]

what really matters is whether the ideas hold water for people who are genuinely interested in wushu.

What ideas? All I see is meandering pseudo philosophical self indulgence.

[Miqi]

What ideas? All I see is meandering pseudo philosophical self indulgence.

Actually, all I've said is that we should rely a bit more on thinking about what we do, because with a bit of thought and intuition, we can make a lot of adjustments to our practice, and thus progess a lot faster, much as, for example, breakdancers and freerunners do. And I've used that to suggest that maybe strictly formal schools and styles could be preventing people from following that method after a certain point, and maybe retarding what the actual training process should reallly be like, by having students endlessly copy the instructor, ot style's set movements which are themselves not necessarily working for either the instructor or the students - when in reality, a good coach should actually work to encourage us to achieve our personal potential, play to our strengths, and unfold our own peculiar understanding of an art, albeit within clear sports science parameters.

In which case, what you 'see' is not really the arbiter of what was really there. As I've said probably three or four times in this thread, what I'm saying is actually obvious to the point of banality. But llike the economist Paul Sweezy once said, sometimes the obvious is just so obvious that people don't stop and think about the implications. For example, the implication this has for schools where students are paying to become ever more perfect clones of their teachers - i.e. most CMA schools. I guess it is, in some ways, self-indulgent to say such an obviously true thing, and then negotiate the tidal wave of denial and personal attack. After all, one needn't.

[taiji24]

The average judo player is far and away a superior martial artist to the average taiji player. At the 'highest' level, however, I would say that a different principle comes into play - my coach said once that at the highest martial art level, there is no difference between styles, because 'highest level' implies that an individual has achieved a significant ability to use their system. It might be that a partucular system produces no such indivduals, or few, as in taiji, or many, as in judo - but that is a problem with training methods in the case of taiji, not a problem with taiji per se.

I had a chance once to experience the level of a judo player who had been on Britain's national squad. To look at him, he looked nothing - like a nerd. His strength and speed, however, were phenomenal. Beware appearances!

I was traveling for a while - thanks for the reply. And I agree that a person's appearance can be very deceiving.

[taiji24]

But that was a LONG time ago.
I started out training Karate when I was eight years old. I took classes at the local community center. I couldn't, not even to save my life, tell you what style of Karate it was. I only remember the teachers first name so that doesn't help any. Not that it matters. I took those classes for a couple of years, eventually earning a "brown belt" but not really learning much in the way of fighting. It was all kata, really, with only enough basic punches, blocks and kicks thrown in to keep us kids interested.
I only stopped going when the teacher stopped teaching at the community center as I enjoyed it quite a bit.
I didn't do anything else until I was 13 or so, when a good friend of mine started training in Tae Kwon Do. He seemed to be having a lot of fun so I convinced my father to pay for some classes there. Again, I don't know if there was a particular "style" name for what I learned. I wasn't really all that interested in that kind of thing at the time. Master Yu was very nice but I rarely saw him, I trained with several American teachers in his system, eventually reaching a blue belt status in his system, which did not correlate to the systems I see now so I can't really compare it to anything meaningful. Master Yu was ex Korean military and taught the TKD as he learned it from them, not the "sport" kind. For the record I have no beef with sport TKD at all and neither did he. We sparred regularly with the group down the street and we all had a lot of respect for each other. Military TKD was what he knew so that's what he taught us, along with a healthy respect for ALL styles of martial arts. He tolerated absolutely ZERO disrespect towards anyone, actually.
I trained TKD with Master Yu until I was 17 which is when he retired and the school closed down. Most folks went to the group down the street after that but I couldn't afford to do so.
Shortly before Master Yu retired I participated in a tournament where I got my ass handed to me by a guy who came in all by himself and was using what he called "Tai Chi Chuan". I'd never heard of it before, don't know his name, don't know which style he used and it doesn't matter. All I know is he stomped me flatter than a pancake and did it faster than anyone I'd ever been up against.
I wanted to learn what he knew, however I couldn't find out anything about Tai Chi Chuan.
This was long before the internet and I was a poor boy with few resources.
The library had some books that mentioned that art but nothing about it, just that it existed and some very faint details about its origins.
So I let my training languish for a number of years.
Flash forward to 1985, so about six years later, I was standing in line at a grocery store. I was bored and so I was reading the fliers posted on the cork board.
Imagine my surprise to see a flier that said, "Tai Chi Chuan taught in the Tradtional Manner: Wu's Tai Chi Chuan Academy is now taking students".
That was it. Nothing else but a line of those cut outs at the bottom where you pulled the phone number off to take with you.
I did and called the number as soon as I got home.
One training session with Sifu Britt and I was hooked. After I meet Si Kung Eddie Wu and trained with him at my first seminar I was even more hooked.
That was a LONG time, a whole bunch of personal insight and another whole style of TCC ago for me.
However, my only real motivation to pick up TCC didn't have anything to do with "internal vs. external" (let's get ready to RUMBLE!!!!!) at all.
My motivation was much more simple than that:
The guy kicked my ass in record time. I wanted to learn how to do what he did to me so I could do that to other people.
Simple as that. No philosophical meaning or deep rooted desire to learn to fire magic chi balls out of my arse.
Which is good, because I never did learn how to do that.

Hope this helps the original poster in some way.

Bob Ashmore

Wow, what a great story, Bob. Thanks for sharing!

When I was a teenager, a Wu style Tai Chi master asked me to punch his lower stomach and use elbows to hit his chest. I was doing Shaolin then and thought I was pretty good. It was like hitting a volleyball. At the end, it was not me punching his stomach, but him coming right towards me, stomach meeting my fist in full frontal collision.

That left me a lasting impression. This is certainly not the reason why I switch, but it convinced me that Tai Chi is a valid martial arts if done right, and some Tai Chi masters can really surprise you.

Again, thanks for sharing your story!

[YouKnowWho]

When I was a teenager, a Wu style Tai Chi master asked me to punch his lower stomach and use elbows to hit his chest.

If you train so called "external" art such as SC or Judo, and you have been thrown down on the ground 200 times daily for the past 6 years, your body should be able to take a full powerful punch as well. It's all about your inside air pressure to balance the outside force. It's simple physics. One time someone asked me to punch his belly (he had a fat beer belly), I told him that I only punch the head and I don't punch the body. As far as the elbow hit the chest, I have not met anybody who would want me to do that to him yet.

[mawali]

I am considered a Nutjob! NOTE Truth in advertising
A few of my friends were talking about traditional vs modern MA so on one conversation I told them that they would only have to spend at least 3 years to learn CMA!
1. Learn Beijing shi 24 taijiquan
2. Spend 2 years (at minimum) learning shuaijiao or Mongolian wrestling and even judo
3. Their art would be as formidable as any art out there per modern training
4. They looked at me like the Nutjob that I am and as they call me.
That was the best day of my life so I told them to test it. Their response "dude, you will be a nutjob for eternity'

[bawang]

the external internal divide is an artificial fence designed by people who want to mind fuk you and take your money.

[Miqi]

the external internal divide is an artificial fence designed by people who want to mind fuk you and take your money.

The 'internal external divide', in this sense, just means the swindle of pretending that there is an easy way that comes through slow movement and standing, and some kind of magical way of issuing force that no one can actually demonstrate. In that sense, this is true, and it's therefore not surprising that many people become disillusioned with the idea and fall into the trap of thinking that it's meaningless nonsense.

There is another way of thinking about it - looking at it in a way that actually makes sense, that is practical, that has benefits for actual training, and that connects training method with practical results. And that is the idea that a mixture of learning from others, and personal experimentation and intuitive adaptation, is what 'external' and 'internal' really means. This is the only explanation that actually makes any sense, that has any practical results, and actually connects directly with the teaching of all the available literature on the training methods we get from the past.

It's very easy to think that something is rubbish. Not so easy to see that it might just be your interpretation that's rubbish.

[Miqi]

"If a challenger comes along with a simple alternative to the theory on which they have built their careers, most scientists are not likely to be receptive, since their status will be undermined and their lifelong commitment apparently wasted".

"A person who challenges the conventional wisdom is likely to be ignored, then dismissed, and then finally, if these responses are inadequate, attacked".

Brian Martin (1998) "Strategies for Dissenting Scientists" in Journal of Scientific Exploration 12:4, pp606-616

[Dale Dugas]

agreed.

There is no such thing as internal and external.

There is only whole body.

People that cannot grasp this concept are neophytes who like most westerners buy into that fantasy magical BS.

[Miqi]

agreed.

There is no such thing as internal and external.

There is only whole body.

People that cannot grasp this concept are neophytes who like most westerners buy into that fantasy magical BS.

The opoosite, in fact, is true: as Wang Xiang Zhai said "bound foot grows the least".

In fact, whole body power is nothing to do with internal and external. In the way that you use all three of these terms, however, internal and external are indeed meaningless, but you have simply replaced them with the equally meaningless 'whole body power'.

Not that 'whole body power' actually is meaningless - just that, as you use it, it's just yet another magical ability that you can't demonstrate, and has to be believed - and those who don't believe it have to be described as 'neophytes'.

In other words, you are repeating the argument strategy of the tailors in the tale of 'the Emperor's new clothes'.

[YouKnowWho]

How will you apply your "internal" when you use "foot sweep" on your opponent?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qxa5v8i5U2M

[Dale Dugas]

No such thing as internal and external.

There is only the body which has both components.

Wang Shifu, I have neophytes on ignore as dealing with their deluded views is tiresome.

There is not separation of the body.

The mind commands
the body responds
the energy follows

As I have said before. Whole body=mind, body and energy.

[Miqi]

No such thing as internal and external.

There is only the body which has both components.

Wang Shifu, I have neophytes on ignore as dealing with their deluded views is tiresome.

There is not separation of the body.

The mind commands
the body responds
the energy follows

As I have said before. Whole body=mind, body and energy.

Saying that one undefined term equals another undefined term doesn't explain anything - much like saying "qi equals energy" or "whole body power equals mind, body, energy". In no way does that define what "whole body power" is. It does, however, rather conveniently make "whole body power" into a metaphysical concept that therefore doesn't have to be demonstrated - it only has to be 'believed'.

I say, conversely, that whole body power is simply a mechanical way of using the body, which can be demonstrated, and shown to be different to other ways of using the body by clearly showing that more of the total physical machine is used in the technique. The most obvious example would be a jab that comes from the arm only (not whole body), and jab that utilises torque and pressing forward from the back foot, as per yiquan.

Being physically large and clumisily putting that weight behind a technique is not 'whole body power', however - it's 'whole body weight power' which is something very different - much like just stepping in with a punch.