Train as you fight

[YouKnowWho]

If we look at the following 2 clips, it's easy to see that "In TCMA, you train exactly the same way as you will fight". Your thought?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2PsyNCD1pQQ

[YouKnowWho]

and this:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=95kE21OIK1c

[Happy panda]

This looks like good fight training. What do you guys think?


http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=fi6mtywX7MY

[GoldenBrain]

Indeed! From The Book Of Five Rings… "You can only fight the way you practice." ~ Miyamoto Musashi

It's also in my signature. I added it a few weeks or couple of months or something like that ago. Great book!

[Raipizo]

I guess I agree with you YKW, the drills and exercises done in tcma seem to be more practical there are some exceptions though but it seems more so that way than western boxing conditioning exercises with the exception of punching drills and the like, obviously.

[Happy panda]

I guess I agree with you YKW, the drills and exercises done in tcma seem to be more practical there are some exceptions though but it seems more so that way than western boxing conditioning exercises with the exception of punching drills and the like, obviously.

With respect the videos posted by ykw are technique practice. Wrestlers do tons of conditioning exercises that have nothing to do with fighting like push ups, sit ups, weight lifting. Boxers do the same. It's applicable to being durable while sparring either in wrestling or boxing. Much of the conditioning wrestlers and boxers do is done within their sport. The extra stuff I mentioned is done on the side.

[GoldenBrain]

This looks like good fight training. What do you guys think?


http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=fi6mtywX7MY


I mean no offense, but you did ask so here goes. I think it's kind of sloppy. If this is the only way they train then it's a good example of what not to do. They are wearing boxing gloves and trying to perform deflections that are difficult at best with boxing gloves. Some of the deflections the defender was working on are much more effective if there is a grab, hook, or a claw at the end of the movement. This sets up a bridge and strike combo, but with boxing gloves it's just not going to happen. If they are going to work with big fluffy boxing gloves then they need to train like a boxer. If they want to work on kung-fu then they should use gloves suited to that style of fighting which would allow them to have much more control.

Also, there were no head strikes or kicks. If a person trains that way and they encounter head strikes and kicks then they will be unprepared and get KO'd the eff out. The theme of this thread is train how you want to fight, so if a person wants to fight with pitter patter strikes only to the mid section then their training will serve them well.

Edit: I watched the video again and there were a few head strikes, so in one sense I was wrong to say there were no head strikes. However, in another sense I was right since the punches that were thrown to the head landed.

[MightyB]

I guess I agree with you YKW, the drills and exercises done in tcma seem to be more practical there are some exceptions though but it seems more so that way than western boxing conditioning exercises with the exception of punching drills and the like, obviously.

I'm either misreading this or I completely and totally disagree with you. I find that most TCMA with the exception of Xanda (San Da) and Shuai Jiao include very little Fight Training in their systems, whereas systems like boxing, wrestling, Judo, Jiu Jitsu, and Thai boxing are all about fight training (within their rule systems of course). It can be easily remedied by shifting a mindset, and it happens in individual schools, but as a whole - IMO traditional martial arts don't do enough fight training.

This is Boxing - compare it to how time is spent in a Kwoon.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BUqEvvtYSa8

[MightyB]

The first two clips that YKW put up are Fight Training.

Happy Panda's clip shows what happens when TCMAist start the path towards fight training. They are still trying to fight within the confines of their system and training. But it doesn't look good yet, and as Golden points out, they should adapt (and you can see they're starting to come to that conclusion). And so for them it begins. If they continue, they'll get better - but I bet their attitudes toward training, technique preference, etc is completely different than someone who comes from a school within that system and has no fight training.

[MightyB]

Big turn offs for me in traditional martial arts are when I look at the photos and see a disproportionate number of young children (to me it's then kung fu day care), or the class photo looks like it could be the microsoft employee reunion pic.

8097

[MightyB]

I'd say this little dude is doing realistic fight training. I may have to take back what I said about kung fu day care if I found a place full kids like this.

Click Here for Facebook Vid (https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=590637741028762)

[SPJ]

If we look at the following 2 clips, it's easy to see that "In TCMA, you train exactly the same way as you will fight". Your thought?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2PsyNCD1pQQ

In Ba Ji, this move is grouped in knee methods or xi fa.

It is used as an example of eating the opponent's root and uprooting him,

chi gen ba gen 吃根拔根

Position or stepping in is the reason you are at advantage.

The practice is actually that two students trying to step in and out the positions to do the move.

The rope is a good way to practice too.

We may also use a staff.

:)

[SPJ]

In ba ji small frame routine/form

it is called kneeling or gui xi 跪膝


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Asy3jdhEMuY

at 1.08

:cool:

[Happy panda]

In ba ji small frame routine/form

it is called kneeling or gui xi 跪膝


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Asy3jdhEMuY

at 1.08

:cool:


There is no way that pajama wearing xing yi/shaolin form rio off can wrestle. Do not believe it at all.

[Happy panda]

I'm either misreading this or I completely and totally disagree with you. I find that most TCMA with the exception of Xanda (San Da) and Shuai Jiao include very little Fight Training in their systems, whereas systems like boxing, wrestling, Judo, Jiu Jitsu, and Thai boxing are all about fight training (within their rule systems of course). It can be easily remedied by shifting a mindset, and it happens in individual schools, but as a whole - IMO traditional martial arts don't do enough fight training.

This is Boxing - compare it to how time is spent in a Kwoon.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BUqEvvtYSa8

I agree, mightyb.

Tcma has little fivht training. Shuai jiao is not typical "traditional" martial arts training. SJ training is typical only if you did sj. Many people today look at sh and san da and try to say it came from their system of that they do it but that is not the case.

[Dragonzbane76]

forms have there place but they do not teach fighting. SPJ I don't know if you were referencing the move he was doing to a "single leg" ? Don't see it if you were. From what I've seen there are many TCMA schools that do not teach in a pattern needed for fighting. I'm not saying all but a majority teach backwards if at best. Heavy on the forms for beginners, slow build to the actual fighting/sparring/resistance/ basics.

[MightyB]

Just thought I'd ad this to show the similarities between Judo and Shuai Jiao. This is an inside leg trip, but the set up to YKW's video is very similar.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WQf_pSK6zGk

Notice how they spend their time drilling the move vs an opponent, and then make it work "live" through practice. That's fight training.

[MightyB]

forms have there place but they do not teach fighting. SPJ I don't know if you were referencing the move he was doing to a "single leg" ? Don't see it if you were. From what I've seen there are many TCMA schools that do not teach in a pattern needed for fighting. I'm not saying all but a majority teach backwards if at best. Heavy on the forms for beginners, slow build to the actual fighting/sparring/resistance/ basics.

I watched SPJ's form and I say it looks great. The guy's demonstrating the attributes that are needed in fighting, he's displaying great power and spirit... but that's where it ends for most using that backwards pattern based teaching strategy. People get to the point where they mastered the form and can make it and themselves look terrifying, but that shouldn't be confused with fighting prowess (not saying the guy in the form can't fight because I don't know him, I'm just using the form as a general example because it looks perfect). I say these things because, in a fight, I doubt most practitioners of that style could use even a tenth of the moves that are demonstrated in that form regardless of their ability to display it as a pattern in a terrifying way.

For example, the 1:08 mark which was highlighted as the same move as the SJ clip. Look at his foot placement, his bodyweight distribution and the force of momentum he's doing in the form, and then look at YKW's second clip where the person is using the belt for solo practice. See a difference? Exactly, that's what happens when you drill a move with the intention of using it and you don't care about how pretty you look while doing it.

I think it would be better to learn just one form, break it down to it's individual techniques, and drill those until you can use them live. That to me would be fight training. Then to grow as a martial artist, you'd spar to develop and ad techniques. Maybe you'd learn new forms over time... but the number of forms becomes less important than the ability to execute the techniques that are demonstrated in the patterns as an indicator of mastery of the system.

Like I've said many times in different posts - can you really claim to be a master of something like praying mantis if you can't do its most underlying principle techniques (like the diu sau) in a real fight or friendly sparring?

[MightyB]

These guys do some serious fight training!!!

With all the tough talk I post - I don't think I'd have the Cojones to train like these guys!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Rued_qs3u0

[lkfmdc]

Meh, for that sort of thing I prefer Dog Brothers, no gear = not really going at it... one guy has the stick the other doesn't, in real life he'd be beating that guy to death with full power shots....

Sayoc is 100% knife 100% of the time (well, that was what it WAS and was known for)... question is, are you going to walk around all the time with knives and always rely upon them? Some places it's a crime with serious jail time you kow

[Raipizo]

I'm either misreading this or I completely and totally disagree with you. I find that most TCMA with the exception of Xanda (San Da) and Shuai Jiao include very little Fight Training in their systems, whereas systems like boxing, wrestling, Judo, Jiu Jitsu, and Thai boxing are all about fight training (within their rule systems of course). It can be easily remedied by shifting a mindset, and it happens in individual schools, but as a whole - IMO traditional martial arts don't do enough fight training.

This is Boxing - compare it to how time is spent in a Kwoon.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BUqEvvtYSa8

I was just thinking of their forms of conditioning more so. But I guess I can see that. The schools I know train many different ways, sparring included but I don't think as much as a pure fighting art like for the ring or cage etc. And I agree they don't fight enough, you don't have to even go all out to get benefits from sparring.

[YouKnowWho]

Will you call this clip as "train as you fight"?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6hI6OJpVzi8

[Dragonzbane76]

I wouldn't John. Fighting does not follow structure sets. It's chaotic, and this guy performing a "form" or whatever he is doing does not adhere to this. Also anyone solo does not "train as you fight" Fighting takes 2 or more people. You have to have resistance from the other faction. You can throw punches in the air all day it's not going to help you learn how to fight.

[bawang]

when old masters don't fight for years its natural for their forms to shift and distort from realism. when you spar its only natural for your forms to return to its beginning.

[YouKnowWho]

In that clip, only circular moves are shown. Can you use just the circular moves to finish a fight? I can't remember when was the last time that I used "hammer fist" in my fight.

[Jimbo]

It doesn't look like a form. It just looks like he's demonstrating some of his style's basic movements left and right. No, it's not like actual fighting, but I'm not sure it's necessarily meant to be, as it is.

[YouKnowWho]

but I'm not sure it's necessarily meant to be, as it is.

What do you mean by that?

In long fist, there is a

- stealing step (move back leg "behind" the leading leg) side kick, and
- cover step (move back leg "in front of" the leading leg) side kick.

Since I have never used cover step side kick, I see no good reason to spend training time into it.

[Jimbo]

What do you mean by that?

In long fist, there is a

- stealing step (move back leg "behind" the leading leg) side kick, and
- cover step (move back leg "in front of" the leading leg) side kick.

Since I have never used cover step side kick, I see no good reason to spend training time into it.

I mean that he is demonstrating basic movements. He may well be able to apply such moves and footwork. I don't know, but the context in which he's showing them, looks to be for repetition of basic moves. He's working basic technique, but (obviously) not in relation to an opponent. That does not mean that what he's doing is necessarily useless.

The same as someone practicing repeated right and left spinning back kicks to the air (for example). It isn't useless, it definitely has its purpose, and helps develop certain attributes through repetition. But kicking in that manner is not fight training.

BTW, I never understood the 'cover step' side kick. I've always felt it makes it impossible to side kick efficiently.

[bawang]

from the rules of shaolin kung fu, that old master is the lowest level garbage fighter. never lower the hands.

[MightyB]

Thought you'd like these YKW


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=727oOmI_GVY

[crazychang]

the vanguard style at the moment is bai ji. You have probably seen the video on you tube with the topless guy with the fast explosive punches, which in some ways resembles boxing. Yet most people continue to burry their heads in the sand, with their shaolin fantasies :cool:

Bai ji is a practical style, and is probably the best internal style to learn. It even has straight to the point greco roman wrestling throws!

[crazychang]

you have got to watch it with these sons of *****es... that tong bei fist form is all some people receive with a few added straight punches and stamps, after many years of training.

[jimbob]

John - just curious...do you do any form training at all? For yourself? With your students? (not line drills, forms like you learnt when you were younger). If so, what benefit do you find from practising them?

[YouKnowWho]

John - just curious...do you do any form training at all? For yourself? With your students? (not line drills, forms like you learnt when you were younger). If so, what benefit do you find from practising them?

What I want to train does not exist in forms. For example, how many forms contain information as "attack after your foot sweep"? When you have swept one of your opponent's legs to be off the ground (your opponent is not down),

- Where will you drop your sweeping leg?
- What attack will you follow with it?
- How do you deal with your opponent's arms at that moment?

If you always use "foot sweep" as your initial attack and set up, none of your forms will be able to help you in this area.

A guy has been with me for 12 years. I have not taught him any forms yet. The integration of kick, punch, lock, throw, follow on strike has taken all my training time. I don't have any extra time for "forms".