How effective is the striking art?

[YouKnowWho]

How effective is the striking art? Here is a simple test.

- Hold both of your hands into a big fist.
- Hide your head behind it.
- Extend your arms toward at your opponent's face.
- Run toward your opponent like a mad man and try to use your big fist to hit on his face.
- Let your opponent to try to hit your head.
- You use your big fist along with both of your arms to deflect your opponent's head shots.
- When your hands are close to your opponent's elbow, shoulder, neck, use arm wrap, over hook, under hook, head lock, ... and prevent your opponent from punching you again.

If

- your opponent's punch can hit your head, he wins that round.
- you can use your big fist to hit on your opponent's face, or get him into an arm wrap, under hook, over hook, head lock, ... before he can hit you, you win that round.

Do you mind to try this with your opponent for 20 rounds and see what kind record that you and your opponent can come up with?

[Dragonzbane76]

Hide your head behind it.
- Extend your arms toward at your opponent's face.
- Run toward your opponent like a mad man and try to use your big fist to hit on his face.

kinda unrealistic don't you think.

[YouKnowWho]

kinda unrealistic don't you think.
The main purpose of this test is to see "how soon can you turn a striking game into a grappling game?" I had tested this with my guys yesterday on both giving side and receiving side. The result was exactly what I would expected.

[Syn7]

Why not just spar with one person using grappling only and the other using striking only?

I think I may be missing the point of your exercise. Help me understand why you would do this? What do you gain from this that can't be gained with a more comprehensive manner of sparring or drilling?

[Kellen Bassette]

Seems like after the first couple times your opponent would jam your legs with low kicks or just side step and counter from angles.

[YouKnowWho]

Why not just spar with one person using grappling only and the other using striking only?

I think I may be missing the point of your exercise. Help me understand why you would do this? What do you gain from this that can't be gained with a more comprehensive manner of sparring or drilling?
That's exactly the purpose of this drill. Is it possible for a wrestler to completely skip the "striking art" training?

In order to apply arm wrap, under hook, over hook, head lock, you will need to use "separate hands" to use both of your arms to separate your opponent's arms from inside. You can start this from the boxing guard, but since your arms are too far away from your opponent's elbow, shoulder, and neck. If you extend your arms, the distance will be closer. The beginner students may have too much concern about their opponent's head shot and afraid to close the distance. This "big fist" training will remove their fear from their opponent's "head shot". If you don't have fear for your opponent's head shot (I'm not too concern about body shot here), it will be a grappler's paradise.

The main purpose is to train "separate hands". The "big fist" drill can help you to reach to that goal. Instead of waiting for your opponent to punch you, you use your big fist to attack your opponent's face and put him in defense mode.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tb93nkJJ2u0

[Syn7]

Why can't you just do that with any number of conventional guards? I engage in clinch all the time from all sorts of different guards. You see it in pretty much every striking art that isn't just point sparring. Boxing, Muay Thai, whatever.

I still don't see the benefit of the big fist. That's just asking to get knocked out. If I can strike and you clamp your hands and come at me, I'm gonna circle out and knock you on your ass. I'm really trying to understand what you'e getting at here, cause I'm just not seeing it.

[YouKnowWho]

Why can't you just do that with any number of conventional guards? I engage in clinch all the time from all sorts of different guards. You see it in pretty much every striking art that isn't just point sparring. Boxing, Muay Thai, whatever.

I still don't see the benefit of the big fist. That's just asking to get knocked out. If I can strike and you clamp your hands and come at me, I'm gonna circle out and knock you on your ass. I'm really trying to understand what you'e getting at here, cause I'm just not seeing it.

If you use your arms to guard your head, you will give your opponent all the space and distance that he needs. If you move your hands closer to your opponent's hands, you can interrupt his punch "in the early stage" before his punch can generate speed and power.

It's similar to the SC guard. But the "big fist" can give you the minimum striking ability (instead of 0 striking ability as shown in the following picture).

http://imageshack.com/a/img404/8081/changfightingposture.jpg

[Syn7]

You should find a Thai boxer who has the same amount of experience in their art as you have in SC and see what happens when you come at him like that. Film it. I'm curious. :)

[Dragonzbane76]

you ever heard the saying, "A strikers chance"? There is no way you can totally eliminate it. It will always be there. I love grappling as much as anyone but I respect the striking game for the devastating effects it can have in a very, very short time frame.

My point is yes grappling does negate the striking game to a minimal, but there is always going to be a chance you get your a$$ knocked out coming in.

[bawang]

striker can fear being entangled without practice and wrestler can fear being rocked without practice. practice both.

[David Jamieson]

In my point of view, you should know striking, throwing and grappling and be familiar with each.
If you only fight within a sport rule set, then that's where you are and you have to stay in the rules of what is allowed.
If you are a kung fu practitioner, you should be familiar with all frames of attack and defense to some level. What you pick as your strongest tactic will be your kung fu.

[YouKnowWho]

You should find a Thai boxer who has the same amount of experience in their art as you have in SC and see what happens when you come at him like that. Film it. I'm curious. :)

The MT guy that I used to train with is too old to spar. One of my students is a boxer. I have tested this on him before. The outcome is not surprised. The key point is when my boxer opponent punches me, I have to move in toward him (instead of moving back). I'll also send 2 of my guys to the local MMA gyms and test this method. May be come up with some video clips on this later on.

[-N-]

- Hold both of your hands into a big fist.
- Hide your head behind it.
- Extend your arms toward at your opponent's face.
- Run toward your opponent like a mad man and try to use your big fist to hit on his face.


And when you give the other person both your arms while running in like that, they never redirect your arms and punch/kick/sweep you?

[YouKnowWho]

striker can fear being entangled without practice and wrestler can fear being rocked without practice. practice both.

If you spar with your partner for 10 rounds, how many rounds can your opponent knock you down vs. you can take him down? Will you say 5-5? I think the chance that you can take your opponent down is much higher than your opponent can knock you down.

[-N-]

striker can fear being entangled without practice and wrestler can fear being rocked without practice. practice both.

This is the answer to every question that YKW posts :D

[YouKnowWho]

And when you give the other person both your arms while running in like that, they never redirect your arms and punch/kick/sweep you?

In order to redirect your "wedge arms", your opponent's arm has to contact your arm. This will give you a chance to wrap his arms. His kick/sweep can also give you a chance to apply your "single leg". As far as I remember, if a Kung Fu tournament does not allow "head shot", the wrestler will always win the 1st place. By taking away the head shot, most of the wrestler's fear can be removed.

[YouKnowWho]

This is the answer to every question that YKW posts :D

I used to think that a good striker and a good grappler are on 50-50 equal base. My opinion has changed lately. But I will need more testing to confirm that.

[GeneChing]

We saw how that turned out (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?67102-Ufc-168&p=1262390#post1262390).

When you're looking for what's most effective, you can't cut corners and deny what isn't quite as effective, but might still finish the fight if the time is right. Different strokes, strikes and submissions for different folks.

[-N-]

In order to redirect your "wedge arms", your opponent's arm has to contact your arm. This will give you a chance to wrap his arms. His kick/sweep can also give you a chance to apply your "single leg". As far as I remember, if a Kung Fu tournament does not allow "head shot", the wrestler will always win the 1st place. By taking away the head shot, most of the wrestler's fear can be removed.

If he stays in contact for a long time while redirecting your momentum, you can have a chance to wrap. If he just knocks your arms aside while kicking your legs, it will be more difficult. No one has tried this when you use your wedge arms?

Seems like wedge arms approach is a little defensive. You are covered up with arms extended, so the big fist is also a big telegraph, and there's not much of a strike other than from running in. The main benefit seems to be that you close in with head protection already in place. This is like you don't trust your defense skills.

Why wouldn't you use a tight 1-2 punch while running in? You get the benefit of real striking threat that uses speed and body torque. Your attack also protects your head. And it will be more difficult for the person to try to redirect you because you don't leave your arms out for him.

[YouKnowWho]

If he stays in contact for a long time while redirecting your momentum, you can have a chance to wrap. If he just knocks your arms aside while kicking your legs, it will be more difficult. No one has tried this when you use your wedge arms?

Seems like wedge arms approach is a little defensive. You are covered up with arms extended, so the big fist is also a big telegraph, and there's not much of a strike other than from running in. The main benefit seems to be that you close in with head protection already in place. This is like you don't trust your defense skills.

Why wouldn't you use a tight 1-2 punch while running in? You get the benefit of real striking threat that uses speed and body torque. Your attack also protects your head. And it will be more difficult for the person to try to redirect you because you don't leave your arms out for him.
My guys arm wrapping don't depend on "contact" any more but use "intention" instead. We have passed beyond the "bridge" concept. For example, When you and I both have right leg forward. I use my left hand to downward parry your leading right arm, I will predict your right arm moving "track" and waiting to wrap your arm before your right arm even finish your move. I also will not use my arm to wrap your arm but to move my body forward and allow your arm to fall into my trap (I'll try to make another clip in my next class).

When I put my "wrestler" hat on, forget about kicking and punching but only concentrate on arm wrapping and leg catching, I would love to see a leg or an arm that coming toward me. This way i don't have to move toward that arm or leg.

The "big fist" training is the beginner level training. In the intermediate level training stage, your both arms will become "2 spears" that can use clockwise circle and counter clockwise circle to seal off any incoming "straight line attack". That's to guard your center from outside in.

My biggest problem is not when my opponent who wants to move in toward me but when he wants to move away from me. The close distance is my advantage. The far distance is not. I don't want to use my punches to scare my opponent away. I do encourage my opponent to redirect my arms and move toward me.

[-N-]

My guys arm wrapping don't depend on "contact" any more but use "intention" instead. We have passed beyond the "bridge" concept. For example, When you and I both have right leg forward. I use my left hand to downward parry your leading right arm, I will predict your right arm moving "track" and waiting to wrap your arm before your right arm even finish your move. I also will not use my arm to wrap your arm but to move my body forward and allow your arm to fall into my trap (I'll try to make another clip in my next class).

In this example, you go from parry to wrap. In the wedge arm example, I am wondering what if the other guy parries or redirects the wedge arms. Is it the same scenario for your transition to wrap? Video will be useful. Thanks.


When I put my "wrestler" hat on, forget about kicking and punching but only concentrate on arm wrapping and leg catching, I would love to see a leg or an arm that coming toward me. This way i don't have to move toward that arm or leg.

Same for "striker".


The "big fist" training is the beginner level training. In the intermediate level training stage, your both arms will become "2 spears" that can use clockwise circle and counter clockwise circle to seal off any incoming "straight line attack". That's to guard your center from outside in.

My biggest problem is not when my opponent who wants to move in toward me but when he wants to move away from me. The close distance is my advantage. The far distance is not. I don't want to use my punches to scare my opponent away. I do encourage my opponent to redirect my arms and move toward me.

Ok, got it.

Then how about just closing in with a good guard and not extending the "big fist".

Or is the big fist wedge arm just a trap to make the other person give you his arm? This would be like when Praying Mantis makes a slow opening attack on purpose.

[YouKnowWho]

Or is the big fist wedge arm just a trap to make the other person give you his arm?

It's like, "This is my arms. Where is yours?" To "slide" my arm along with my opponent's arm when my body is advancing is the key method.

[ShaolinDan]

C'mon guys, this is silly. It's not like John is suggesting this is the best way to enter...it's just an easy to apply drill designed to demonstrate a point. seems to me like it would be a great eye opener intro for pure grapplers or strikers looking to integrate the two skills.

[YouKnowWho]

I'm still testing this "anti_striking" strategy. My guys had tried this strategy for 3 rounds yesterday in the class. The score was:

- 3 clinches to 0 head shot, and
- 2 clinches to 1 head shot.

The only round that the head shot was scored was because one guy used the body shot to set up a head shot. If his opponent just took that body shot and traded with clinch, that round won't even be scored. My guys will test this strategy in local MMA gym and accumulate the testing result until I have enough data to have more faith in this approach.

[YouKnowWho]

More testing had been done on this method yesterday. 6 rounds was tested with 20 head shots each round. In all 6 rounds (120 head shots), 0 head shot was landed. Also most of the arm wrapping could be done on the 2nd punches.

[Dragonzbane76]

honestly I don't think the striking game is won "outside". I think it's won in the clinch. Knocking someone out entering is a possibility but honestly John I agree that percentage wise it favors the grappler. Striking in the clinch is the winning formula IMO.