View Full Version : Qi handling in Wck
Hendrik
02-26-2014, 12:35 PM
This is only for those wcners who like to know the ancient art of Wck.
Since the art of ancient siu Lin tau of pre 1850 is surfacing this year of 2014.
The following is the basic Qi gong information one needs to know in order to know what the ancient Wck ancestors refer to when they mention Qi and Qi medirians or Qi flow within the six core elements of Siu Lin Tau. The six core elements are body ( joints, sinews, muscle ...etc) mind, breathing , Qi , Jin or force flow, and momentum .
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bP2UXMavGwI&feature=youtube_gdata
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7VOULi81BVE&feature=youtube_gdata -
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tjlugsxb_M0&feature=youtube_gdata
Qi handling is much much more then what in general though or speculated. It is a indepth science and technology . One needs a proffesional to coach one to really learn it.
Hendrik
02-26-2014, 01:04 PM
This is a must read classic by Dr. Robert Chu on Qi.
http://www.chusaulei.com/martial/columns/columns_demon.html
tc101
02-26-2014, 03:17 PM
This is a must read classic by Dr. Robert Chu on Qi.
http://www.chusaulei.com/martial/columns/columns_demon.html
I direct you to #4.
listverse.com/2009/01/19/10-debunked-scientific-beliefs-of-the-past/
YMAA_com
02-27-2014, 08:17 AM
I direct you to #4.
listverse.com/2009/01/19/10-debunked-scientific-beliefs-of-the-past/
Non-sequitur.
Anyone participating in a Chinese martial arts forum should understand the topic of Qi (energy).
The vague concept of vitalism is not parallel with Qi/TCM theory. It is weak to post a link, with no logical analysis of the topic included.
Qi is the Chinese word for energy. The 100 trillion cells in your body circulate energy through various means. You are a bag of 70% fluid with an electric current. This current is commonly measured with an EEG, EKG, and other devices.
At a deeper level, these cells themselves are made of molecules, which are made of atoms, which are made of...energy.
When you breathe and eat food you metabolize energy. This is Qi.
Qi theory is congruent with modern physics, modern physiology, and modern Western medical science. The problem is in understanding between disciplines. 100 years from now, it will be common knowledge; until then, it is the responsibility of Chinese martial artists, Qigong practitioners, and anyone interested in cutting edge science to bridge the gap and help people understand the role of energy within the human body.
There are a lot of modern Western medical studies you can read about energy in the body. There are very detailed accounts of how and why Qi circulates in the body from TCM, qigong, Daoism, Buddhism, Yoga, etc. It is very clear to understand, if you have an interest in understanding reality.
With respect to the thousands of teachers who have passed this info down to us,
David Silver
The vague concept of vitalism is not parallel with Qi/TCM theory.
Your concept of qi being "energy" is just as vague, so that you can attach your belief to whatever is conveniently traceable. For example:
You are a bag of 70% fluid with an electric current. This current is commonly measured with an EEG, EKG, and other devices.
Electric currents have nothing to do with qi, otherwise the chakras would correlate with neuron concentrations.
tc101
02-27-2014, 10:36 AM
Non-sequitur.
Anyone participating in a Chinese martial arts forum should understand the topic of Qi (energy).
The vague concept of vitalism is not parallel with Qi/TCM theory. It is weak to post a link, with no logical analysis of the topic included.
Qi is the Chinese word for energy. The 100 trillion cells in your body circulate energy through various means. You are a bag of 70% fluid with an electric current. This current is commonly measured with an EEG, EKG, and other devices.
At a deeper level, these cells themselves are made of molecules, which are made of atoms, which are made of...energy.
When you breathe and eat food you metabolize energy. This is Qi.
Qi theory is congruent with modern physics, modern physiology, and modern Western medical science. The problem is in understanding between disciplines. 100 years from now, it will be common knowledge; until then, it is the responsibility of Chinese martial artists, Qigong practitioners, and anyone interested in cutting edge science to bridge the gap and help people understand the role of energy within the human body.
There are a lot of modern Western medical studies you can read about energy in the body. There are very detailed accounts of how and why Qi circulates in the body from TCM, qigong, Daoism, Buddhism, Yoga, etc. It is very clear to understand, if you have an interest in understanding reality.
With respect to the thousands of teachers who have passed this info down to us,
David Silver
You have just restated the theory of vitalism but said it is not vitalism.
You have just restated the theory of vitalism but said it is not vitalism.
Yeah. I have to agree! This part:
Qi is the Chinese word for energy. The 100 trillion cells in your body circulate energy through various means. You are a bag of 70% fluid with an electric current. This current is commonly measured with an EEG, EKG, and other devices.
At a deeper level, these cells themselves are made of molecules, which are made of atoms, which are made of...energy.
When you breathe and eat food you metabolize energy. This is Qi.
That is also essentially the idea of Vitalism.
YMAA_com
02-27-2014, 12:30 PM
Vitalism.
No. Vitalism was vague and unclear, and has no reference to the known energy in the human body in modern terms. Is anyone interested in having an intelligent conversation to understand the subject? Why are you in a Chinese kung fu forum if you don't understand Qi?
Do you deny the fact that the body's energy (which is called Qi in Chinese) can be measured with an EKG? Electro.Cardio.Graph.
Are you aware that your brainwaves are a frequency of energy (which is called Qi in Chinese)?
Do you know that you are consuming energy in your brain cells right now to read this sentence?
Does the concept of energy somehow scare you, or defy your religious beliefs?
In basic principle, there is an obvious similarity between TCM and vitalism in that both are based on the assumption that there is vital energy in the body. But to write the basis of TCM, Qigong, Kung Fu and Chinese culture in general off as pseudoscientific "vitalism" is a mistake. TCM has many years of empirical data to explain Qi in comprehensive detail, including modern research, whereas vitalism talked vaguely about immeasurable energy at a time that Western science was just beginning to have a mechanistic view inside the body.
Modern Western medical science is beginning to speak more and more about the role of energy in healing, etc. Lots of research to read on the topic if you're interested.
You're not thinking it through.
Your concept of qi being "energy"
This is not my opinion or concept. The Chinese word for energy is Qi. It is not subject to debate.
This is also not my "belief". It may be my "experience" as a Qigong teacher...but its also the basis of all of the internal arts.
Electric currents have nothing to do with qi, otherwise the chakras would correlate with neuron concentrations. What? This would be a sentence that does not makes sense in any way.
Qi is energy. Therefore, any "current" or circulation of energy in the body is Qi. The chakras (energy centers) correlate with the seven matching acupuncture gates in TCM, and with the seven fascial planes in the body. They are not a metaphor. They are based in physiology. Your nerves do circulate energy, but so does every other cell in your body.
Do you deny that your body has energy?
This is the disconnect I see so often in Chinese martial arts forums that boggles my mind. Im trying to help people who actually care to understand the subject to see it clearly, so more people can benefit.
Qigong is not ancient Chinese secret, or woo woo New Age mysticism; it is the future of Western medicine.
Grumblegeezer
02-27-2014, 12:48 PM
No. Vitalism was vague and unclear, and has no reference to the known energy in the human body in modern terms...
Qi is energy. Therefore, any "current" or circulation of energy in the body is Qi...
Oh no nothing vague about that. Woo..woo...
Honestly, whatever the merits of traditional Chinese medicine, your arguments are not convincing and persuasive to those of a materialistic/scientific perspective. Best to just let it go.
JPinAZ
02-27-2014, 12:50 PM
Whatever the case, you do not need a deep understanding of Qi for wing chun development. All of this talk of Qi in wing chun is just someone taking ideas from other MA's and trying to fit them into their sometimes incomplete idea of WC. Similar to someoone mixing in snake/crane 100 years ago to flush out their missing wc trining. Or, it's just an attempt to make themselves stand out and look unique. Heck, they might even say they read it off of some old scroll they found in someone's old dresser drawer that no one has ever seen and it's authenticity has never been proven!!
And that's fine if people want to do that, but be honest about it and call it what it is. But it's really not necessary because wing chun is already complete - it doesn't need anything added to it.
PalmStriker
02-27-2014, 01:08 PM
This is a must read classic by Dr. Robert Chu on Qi.
http://www.chusaulei.com/martial/columns/columns_demon.html Thanks for posting, Hendrik.
PalmStriker
02-27-2014, 01:14 PM
Non-sequitur.
Anyone participating in a Chinese martial arts forum should understand the topic of Qi (energy).
The vague concept of vitalism is not parallel with Qi/TCM theory. It is weak to post a link, with no logical analysis of the topic included.
Qi is the Chinese word for energy. The 100 trillion cells in your body circulate energy through various means. You are a bag of 70% fluid with an electric current. This current is commonly measured with an EEG, EKG, and other devices.
At a deeper level, these cells themselves are made of molecules, which are made of atoms, which are made of...energy.
When you breathe and eat food you metabolize energy. This is Qi.
Qi theory is congruent with modern physics, modern physiology, and modern Western medical science. The problem is in understanding between disciplines. 100 years from now, it will be common knowledge; until then, it is the responsibility of Chinese martial artists, Qigong practitioners, and anyone interested in cutting edge science to bridge the gap and help people understand the role of energy within the human body.
There are a lot of modern Western medical studies you can read about energy in the body. There are very detailed accounts of how and why Qi circulates in the body from TCM, qigong, Daoism, Buddhism, Yoga, etc. It is very clear to understand, if you have an interest in understanding reality.
With respect to the thousands of teachers who have passed this info down to us,
David Silver Thanks for posting.
Hendrik
02-27-2014, 05:06 PM
the Chinese university study on Qi medirians tracing relationship with electrical resistance.
https://mn.uio.no/fysikk/english/research/projects/bioimpedance/publications/papers/meridian_rev.pdf
http://www.biomedcentral.com/1472-6882/5/10/
http://www.chikung.org.tw/txt/paper/p08.htm
http://www.paper.edu.cn/en_releasepaper/downPaper/200805-302
Hendrik
02-27-2014, 05:15 PM
Do siu nim tau has a Qi and medirians handling technology?
Certainly.
Does yjkym related to the yang legs medirians?
Certainly.
The key is whether one get the full instruction of snt practice or not.
Chinese is using Qi handling to handle their biomechanics and biochemical and bio electrical effect of the human body for thousand of years. They model it differently compare with the west, they use a holistic philosophy different then the west. Model and philosophical different doesn't mean it is not scientific or non causal. The west has to know, west doesn't default to scientific. Chinese model doesn't default to non scientific.
The Chinese still using Qi handling in their internal practice today. No mysterious All scientific. The question is who has seen and practice the real deal ? The real deal produce result.
If you love to sleep in your box, that is fine with me. However, a new Wck era on force flow, momentum, and Qi is already started. It goes beyond the so called structure or geometry holding era. The technology of 1850 is brought back. , see for yourself what will happen.
Read this issue and coming issue of WCI and pay attention to sifu Sergio future YouTubes. Facts are coming out.
GlennR
02-27-2014, 06:55 PM
Read this issue and coming issue of WCI and pay attention to sifu Sergio future YouTubes. Facts are coming out.
Well that would be a first
Hi David!
No. Vitalism was vague and unclear, and has no reference to the known energy in the human body in modern terms.
It is no more vague than the concept of Chi. It references no specific energy in the body because it is seen as the sum total of all of them.
Is anyone interested in having an intelligent conversation to understand the subject? Why are you in a Chinese kung fu forum if you don't understand Qi?
Who said we didn't understand Chi????? I am credentialed to practice acupuncture at my hospital. All I am questioning are your rather simplistic descriptions. But I should also point out that NO ONE really understands Chi. At least not from a scientific viewpoint.
Do you deny the fact that the body's energy (which is called Qi in Chinese) can be measured with an EKG? Electro.Cardio.Graph.
Nope. That's electrical discharge being measured. I've never seen anyone claim that electrical discharges are transmitted along acupuncture meridian pathways.
Are you aware that your brainwaves are a frequency of energy (which is called Qi in Chinese)?
Once again, electrical discharges. Did I already mention being overly simplistic?
Do you know that you are consuming energy in your brain cells right now to read this sentence?
Chemical enery also called Vital energy by the "vitalists."
Does the concept of energy somehow scare you, or defy your religious beliefs?
Nope. Does it make you goofy? :-)
In basic principle, there is an obvious similarity between TCM and vitalism in that both are based on the assumption that there is vital energy in the body. But to write the basis of TCM, Qigong, Kung Fu and Chinese culture in general off as pseudoscientific "vitalism" is a mistake.
Who said anything about writing anything off? You made a post in which you said Chi was not vitalism and then turned around and described basic vitalism. We are only pointing out your inconsistency. Yes, in basic principle vitalism and TCM are the same. Now, that's not to say that TCM theory isn't more refined and more comprehensive than vitalism.
TCM has many years of empirical data to explain Qi in comprehensive detail, including modern research,
Really? You do realize that the vast majority of what it referred to as "empirical data" in the realm of acupuncture research does not meet western scientific rigor or standards?
This is not my opinion or concept. The Chinese word for energy is Qi. It is not subject to debate.
That proves very little. The Hindi word is "Prana." So what?
This is the disconnect I see so often in Chinese martial arts forums that boggles my mind. Im trying to help people who actually care to understand the subject to see it clearly, so more people can benefit.
I think you're getting all bent out of shape here for nothing David. No one is calling you a quack or lunatic or anything like that. I certainly believe in "Chi" as energy in the body. The sticking point that is really not clear to anyone that I know of is if there really is an as yet unidentified form of energy in the body that circulates along specific pathways that can be accessed at known acupuncture points. As far as I know, that has never been scientifically proven. If you have a reference that proves me wrong, I'd love to see it!
Qigong is not ancient Chinese secret, or woo woo New Age mysticism; it is the future of Western medicine.
Well ****! Come tell that to the IRB at my hospital! ;-)
Don't get me wrong David! I'm all for helping people understand Chi. But your attitude in your posts here a bit off-putting.
Electric currents have nothing to do with qi, otherwise the chakras would correlate with neuron concentrations.
Nope. Gotta disagree. Electric currents are produced by a lot more than just nerves.
tc101
02-27-2014, 08:58 PM
I think you're getting all bent out of shape here for nothing David. No one is calling you a quack or lunatic or anything like that. I certainly believe in "Chi" as energy in the body. The sticking point that is really not clear to anyone that I know of is if there really is an as yet unidentified form of energy in the body that circulates along specific pathways that can be accessed at known acupuncture points. As far as I know, that has never been scientifically proven. If you have a reference that proves me wrong, I'd love to see it!
Chi or qi simply does not exist. Vitalism has been disproved. End of story.
This is not my opinion or concept. The Chinese word for energy is Qi. It is not subject to debate.
Not exactly. Any dictionary definition of qi will not just say "energy". It is always qualified as "vital energy" (and is usually the final entry). It is precisely what vitalism is about. You want to broaden it so that its vagueness allows for you to validate your belief by attaching the name qi to any conveniently detectable energy.
This is also not my "belief".
So you don't believe in qi? Either you do or you don't. It is not a question of knowledge because it has not been scientifically demonstrated to even exist.
Qigong is not ancient Chinese secret, or woo woo New Age mysticism; it is the future of Western medicine.
Well, you're certainly confident, but do you realize the rate at which people in the West have been dropping religion? Skepticism is growing. Established medical practice is not going to be replaced by an exercise based on some ill-defined energy concept that has not been proven real.
Grumblegeezer
02-28-2014, 10:38 AM
the Chinese university study on Qi medirians tracing relationship with electrical resistance.
https://mn.uio.no/fysikk/english/research/projects/bioimpedance/publications/papers/meridian_rev.pdf
http://www.biomedcentral.com/1472-6882/5/10/
http://www.chikung.org.tw/txt/paper/p08.htm
http://www.paper.edu.cn/en_releasepaper/downPaper/200805-302
OK Hendrik, I read over the two first two articles (the only ones published in English) and they did not offer any conclusive support for the theory that acupuncture points and meridians have a relationship with electrical resistance! Why are you posting studies that cast doubt on your stated position?!?
Hendrik
02-28-2014, 11:17 AM
OK Hendrik, I read over the two first two articles (the only ones published in English) and they did not offer any conclusive support for the theory that acupuncture points and meridians have a relationship with electrical resistance! Why are you posting studies that cast doubt on your stated position?!?
I post facts from different views. I am open for facture evidence, Qi is real but it is no God and not everything.
Upto any one to take what they like.
Does the west know about Qi? Well one can see lots of prejudice scientist in the west since 1850 the opium war era. And now many in the west accept accupuncture and traditional medicine, while some still not accept reality ,via thier prejudice mind by the name of scientific.
Seriously, it is as non scientific for those who never train and practice Qi handling to critics or comment on what they don't know. And how many here really has more then 100 hours of formal Qi handling training?
Qi is not everything. But Qi is something can be grow and lead to flow in the body. Anyone who has formal traning and pastic know this.
Does SNT design related to Qi? Absolutely.
Any one who goes through the six core elements of snt training never turn back., because result is the reality.
JPinAZ
02-28-2014, 11:34 AM
And now many in the west accept accupuncture and traditional medicine while some still not accept reality via thier prejudice mind by the name of scientific.
....Qi is something can be grow and lead to flow in the body...
Does SNT design related to Qi? Absolutely.
Ok, please share with us your results since you started adding accumpuncture and medicine ideas into your wing chun. What proven increase in fighting abilities have you personally experienced?
While wing chun practice does have health benifits, that is just a bi-product of the training. There are also phylisophical benifits for self growth. And we can do chi gung outside of WC for health benifits.
But the main reason for the existence of wing chun is for combat. All the theory, EKG reports, old scrolls, etc do not prove the results. Without proven increase in combat skills, what are we even talking about?
(And before you start with the 'this isn't about me' nonsense, if you want anyone to take anything you say seriously about your findings and 'facts', please tell us how it's worked out for you so far. That should be pretty simple!)
But the main reason for the existence of wing chun is for combat. All the theory, EKG reports, old scrolls, etc do not prove the results. Without proven increase in combat skills, what are we even talking about?
Yeah. I spent a lot of time at Shaolin, where much of Chinese qigong practice developed. They all spend years training to break bricks with their hands, have sticks broken over them, spears broken on their throats, iron bars snapped over their heads, etc.. They fear not being hit. All of which of course they all attribute to their practice of "hard qigong".
Yet, when they have sanda matches they still get knocked out. Ha. Not only that, but the guy's skull doesn't split open like a brick. Where does it all go? It's all a colossal waste of time if you're training for combat effectiveness.
While there are health benefits to training "soft qigong", I find it is due to the type of physical exercise, stretching and deep breathing. "Qi" is bullsh!t.
Grumblegeezer
03-01-2014, 07:58 PM
"Qi" is bullsh!t.
Qi = BS? Well, if this is true, then why say "Qi" (or chi or ki)? Just substitute the better understood term, "BS".
Then we can increase the strength of our BS through breathing and special exercises. Like the BS masters of old we can accumulate and store BS below and behind our navel. We can learn to circulate BS through our body. We can use BS to heal people and, as martial artists, we can use BS to overcome our enemies.
Why you're absolutely right, LFJ. Now I see how by just using the term BS it all seems to make so much more sense!
Qi = BS? Well, if this is true, then why say "Qi" (or chi or ki)? Just substitute the better understood term, "BS".
Qi is the Chinese word for BS. If you leave it in Chinese while speaking English more people will believe it.
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