View Full Version : Question for you WC guys?
Subitai
03-01-2014, 10:31 AM
Happened to browsing around some vids and came across this guy:
Skip to around the 7min mark
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tWWWcNWFPZQ
I notice he's talking about the use of a triangle in his attack. Literally demonstrating NOT keeping the elbow sunk whilst punching to help cover himself.
Would you WC buffs say that is a more modern adaptation? Because I rarely see WC guys trying to hit without a sunken elbow. If you want to contribute by all means...
Also NO, i'm not trolling you guys. It's winter and I can't go bass fishing right now so cut me some slack. :D
Literally demonstrating NOT keeping the elbow sunk whilst punching to help cover himself.
Cover himself from what? He's on the inside.
Without referring exactly to what this guy was doing or the rest of the video, we're talking basically about the taan-sau position in daan-chi-sau. The vertical palm is a taan shape that raises the elbow as it strikes. It's the rising of the taan-sau that threatens the one in fuk-sau position on the outside, forcing them to cover with jam-sau and to be unable to strike. Keeping the elbow buried in a fuk shape on the inside would be weak. It would make it easy for the person in fuk-sau position on the outside to deflect and strike straight away through the gap.
Subitai
03-01-2014, 01:10 PM
Well i don't think i could be more clear when i asked about the punch he's talking about at around 7mins to 7:16 or so....you know vertical fist ala "Yut gi choi" (spelling?) with his right elbow raised outward as he punches...in order to cover his high line. I'm talking about his punch not his blocks.
It sparked my curiosity because of the triangle coverage he's talking about. The part where he says, " I don't punch him like this(sunk elbow)...I punch him more open (with raised elbow)"
You can see he's trying to negate the possibility of his student hitting him with the left overhand. But that's what makes the inside line dangerous...really if they both throw together they could be trading blows. That problem is for everybody and every style attempting this btw...obviously you have to be brave.
After he shows it he tries to cover his words abit and says: "It still it's not safe - but I have contact" ... but it doesn't change the fact that most WC I see punch from the center with elbow sunk.
Mabe it's just my poor observation this cold morning...or is this common in WC?
Hey no worries, a little higher and some more shoulder rotation and you basically have a right cross. Why not, the rest of the world is already doing it. It's a common move for Bouncers to reach out Grab/punch/block and shove all at the same time similar to that.
tc101
03-01-2014, 07:05 PM
Happened to browsing around some vids and came across this guy:
Skip to around the 7min mark
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tWWWcNWFPZQ
I notice he's talking about the use of a triangle in his attack. Literally demonstrating NOT keeping the elbow sunk whilst punching to help cover himself.
Would you WC buffs say that is a more modern adaptation? Because I rarely see WC guys trying to hit without a sunken elbow. If you want to contribute by all means...
Also NO, i'm not trolling you guys. It's winter and I can't go bass fishing right now so cut me some slack. :D
Can you tell me what triangles have to do with wing chun? Triangles. My good God.
Vajramusti
03-01-2014, 07:23 PM
[QUOTE=tc101;1262721]Can you tell me what triangles have to do with wing chun? Triangles. My good God.[/QUOTE
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Triangles when done right are important in my wing chun. The motion illustrated in the clip is not my cup of tea.
I notice he's talking about the use of a triangle in his attack. Literally demonstrating NOT keeping the elbow sunk whilst punching to help cover himself.
There ARE several triangles in Wing Chun. But this typically isn't one of them. This kind of punch isn't my cup of tea either. He thinks he is defending against the opponent's left hand while he is punching.....but what if the opponent was punching low rather than high? His mistake is....here it comes tc101....he hasn't broken his opponent's structure. If he did this well, the opponent's left hand wouldn't be a threat at all and he wouldn't have to have his elbow waggling outward like that.
Would you WC buffs say that is a more modern adaptation? Because I rarely see WC guys trying to hit without a sunken elbow. If you want to contribute by all means...
Yeah. It would call that a modern adaptation.
Also NO, i'm not trolling you guys. It's winter and I can't go bass fishing right now so cut me some slack. :D
Aren't there some re-runs of fishing shows on TV? ;)
Well i don't think i could be more clear when i asked about the punch he's talking about at around 7mins to 7:16 or so....you know vertical fist ala "Yut gi choi" (spelling?) with his right elbow raised outward as he punches...in order to cover his high line. I'm talking about his punch not his blocks.
I know. I wasn't talking about blocks either. I was talking about attacking with a taan concept, rising and spreading, while on the inside gate. It's a superior shape given the position and can be done with a fist. It's not what this guy's doing, but it addresses your doubt as to why one wouldn't always punch with a low buried elbow. On the inside gate there is nothing to cover with the buried elbow, since the opponent's arm is coming high from the outside (in the scenario presented). A buried elbow punch would not only serve little/no purpose for protection, but would be a weak shape against the opponent who could shift, deflect and strike through the gap.
But as KPM said, in any case, you can't just stand there and trade even blows without affecting the opponent. The outside gate is always safer, but even on the inside one must use footwork and pressuring well to not be stood in this position of danger in the first place.
Flaring the elbow out like that in an awkward punch has no foundation for power- doesn't use the hip (wing chun) and doesn't use rotation (western boxing). It's a weak and vulnerable position that I wouldn't recommend. Whether it is a modern adaptation, I don't know. I'm not sure no other lineages use it. But we here seem to be in agreement. Not our cups of tea.
tc101
03-02-2014, 04:56 AM
Can you tell me what triangles have to do with wing chun? Triangles. My good God.
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Triangles when done right are important in my wing chun. The motion illustrated in the clip is not my cup of tea.
There are no triangles. I understand that some teachers use references to triangles - always a bad idea IMO - to teach beginners but beyond that wing chun is dynamic. There are no shapes there is only dynamic actions. You really think that is fighting at full speed you will be posing shapes? Sure if you take a snapshot at a certain time mid action you MAY say it looks like a two sided triangle but that is more or less an illusion.
tc101
03-02-2014, 05:06 AM
There ARE several triangles in Wing Chun.
No no no some teachers use triangles in their explanations when they teach wing chun. This is a very bad idea since it leads to this kind of thing. There are no shapes or poses only dynamic actions.
But this typically isn't one of them. This kind of punch isn't my cup of tea either. He thinks he is defending against the opponent's left hand while he is punching.....but what if the opponent was punching low rather than high? His mistake is....here it comes tc101....he hasn't broken his opponent's structure. If he did this well, the opponent's left hand wouldn't be a threat at all and he wouldn't have to have his elbow waggling outward like that.
People who do not have much experience sparring have a tendency to assume they will or should be able to do things. You say he should break the opponents structure.Ok but what it he can't? Is he just fxxked then? When you fight or spar you must be able to deal with the situation. What do you do if you find yourself in that situation and were unable to break his structure? Do you just give up?
No no no some teachers use triangles in their explanations when they teach wing chun. This is a very bad idea since it leads to this kind of thing. There are no shapes or poses only dynamic actions.
The idea of a triangle is a guide for alignment. Alignment happens dynamically. I don't see the use of triangles as implying holding a shape or pose at all.
People who do not have much experience sparring have a tendency to assume they will or should be able to do things. You say he should break the opponents structure.Ok but what it he can't? Is he just fxxked then? When you fight or spar you must be able to deal with the situation. What do you do if you find yourself in that situation and were unable to break his structure? Do you just give up?
Like LFJ said, he shouldn't have gotten himself into this position to begin with! He doesn't say anything in his narrative about this being an "oh ****!" kind of move to cover a bad situation. He implies it is standard practice. I'm surprised you aren't saying "this guy obviously does not train realistically or spar with his Wing Chun because if he did he would know just putting your elbow out with a weak punch isn't going to protect against a shot from the opponent's left hand." ;) If I was faced with a similar kind of "oh ****!" situation I would likely step into the opponent and to his right away from his left hand while breaking his structure with a Lop or palm to the face, etc. Standing directly in front of an opponent and trading blows is a mistake.
tc101, you tend to view Wing Chun is a sparring context....facing off with an opponent where both sides expect a fight and are going to exchange tit for tat. I view Wing Chun in a street defense context where the opponent won't necessarily expect you to put up a fight, where you are probably already within striking distance of each other and don't have to close, and the opponent is not necessarily a highly trained and conditioned MMA fighter!
tc101
03-02-2014, 08:19 AM
No no no some teachers use triangles in their explanations when they teach wing chun. This is a very bad idea since it leads to this kind of thing. There are no shapes or poses only dynamic actions.
The idea of a triangle is a guide for alignment. Alignment happens dynamically. I don't see the use of triangles as implying holding a shape or pose at all.
Yes yes it is an idea for beginners that some use to explain alignment only there is no triangle in reality.
People who do not have much experience sparring have a tendency to assume they will or should be able to do things. You say he should break the opponents structure.Ok but what it he can't? Is he just fxxked then? When you fight or spar you must be able to deal with the situation. What do you do if you find yourself in that situation and were unable to break his structure? Do you just give up?
Like LFJ said, he shouldn't have gotten himself into this position to begin with! He doesn't say anything in his narrative about this being an "oh ****!" kind of move to cover a bad situation. He implies it is standard practice. I'm surprised you aren't saying "this guy obviously does not train realistically or spar with his Wing Chun because if he did he would know just putting your elbow out with a weak punch isn't going to protect against a shot from the opponent's left hand." ;) If I was faced with a similar kind of "oh ****!" situation I would likely step into the opponent and to his right away from his left hand while breaking his structure with a Lop or palm to the face, etc. Standing directly in front of an opponent and trading blows is a mistake.
Here is the reality you will very very very often or let's say most often in sparring or fighting find yourself in situations you do not want to be in. THAT is the nature of fighting. THAT is what your opponent is trying to do to you he is trying to put you in situations you do not want to be in. This is why I hate it when guys who do not spar or fight start talking about what to do in sparring or fighting. Things most often do not work as you want them to. Your statement of I would step this way while breaking his structure is a good example. You might TRY that but you cannot count on being able to do it.
Your trading blows is a mistake comment proves to me you do not spar and have not trained with a fight trainer because this view is only held by people who do not spar or fight. Here is the good advice you will hear again and again from good fight trainers- when in doubt trade punches. If he is hitting you at least you will be making him pay for it that way. Now you will want to argue with me why you think this is crazy because you will explain to me how you think things should go in sparring. I am telling you how you think they should go is not how they really go and that the only way to really grasp that is through experience.
tc101, you tend to view Wing Chun is a sparring context....facing off with an opponent where both sides expect a fight and are going to exchange tit for tat. I view Wing Chun in a street defense context where the opponent won't necessarily expect you to put up a fight, where you are probably already within striking distance of each other and don't have to close, and the opponent is not necessarily a highly trained and conditioned MMA fighter!
I look at wing chun from a fighting context because how else can you look at it? Sparring is where we practice for fighting. I do not train for best case scenarios where my opponent can't fight is out of shape and expects me to just stand there and take what he dishes. I train for worst case scenarios where my opponent can fight is in shape and expects me to put up a fight. If I can deal with worst case the best case is easy.
Yes yes it is an idea for beginners that some use to explain alignment only there is no triangle in reality.
Triangular alignment is just a real as the centerline, the inside/outside line, etc. Sure, its an idea for beginners. But that doesn't mean you stop using it when no longer a beginner! Good alignment is important in Wing Chun.
Here is the reality you will very very very often or let's say most often in sparring or fighting find yourself in situations you do not want to be in. THAT is the nature of fighting.
Of course. Where did I say otherwise?
This is why I hate it when guys who do not spar or fight start talking about what to do in sparring or fighting. Things most often do not work as you want them to. Your statement of I would step this way while breaking his structure is a good example. You might TRY that but you cannot count on being able to do it.
Dude, you are SO full of it! I said "likely" as in I would do what the situation dictated at the time. I was simply giving a "for example". I really hate it when guys that are so focused on sparring forget that fighting on the street is NOT the same thing. I really hate it when someone's response to almost every thread is "you obviously do not spar or fight".
Your trading blows is a mistake comment proves to me you do not spar and have not trained with a fight trainer because this view is only held by people who do not spar or fight. Here is the good advice you will hear again and again from good fight trainers- when in doubt trade punches.
Again....here is the fundamental difference between someone so focused on gym sparring and forgetting the reality (uh oh, did I say reality?) of real fighting. On the street I don't know if the guy has knife or not. I WILL NOT stand in front of him and trade blows if I can help it because one of his blows may very well be delivered with a blade! When in doubt, and given the opportunity....RUN!
Now you will want to argue with me why you think this is crazy because you will explain to me how you think things should go in sparring. I am telling you how you think they should go is not how they really go and that the only way to really grasp that is through experience.
I'm telling you that I don't give a **** how things will go in sparring. You are "Mr. Reality" but your reality seems to end at the door to your gym.
I look at wing chun from a fighting context because how else can you look at it?
As self-protection. As street-defense. As combative training. None of those are the same as competitive sparring. Now you will want to argue with me why you think this is crazy because you will explain to me how things go in sparring. But I'll ask you this....why does every example of Wing Chun sparring typically look nothing like the Wing Chun we practice. Even Alan Orr's guys that have had good success lose good Wing Chun form when sparring. So why practice it the way we do and not the way it looks in sparring? The thing that seems to work the best in competitive sparring is some form of kickboxing. So if competitive sparring is your thing, why not just practice kickboxing? If you are so focused on competitive sparring, why are you not doing MMA instead of Wing Chun? Why waste time with forms, and Chi Sao, etc when you could just spar with kickboxing all the time???
I do not train for best case scenarios where my opponent can't fight is out of shape and expects me to just stand there and take what he dishes. I train for worst case scenarios where my opponent can fight is in shape and expects me to put up a fight. If I can deal with worst case the best case is easy.
Yeah, but even in your "worst case" scenario in competitive sparring you have time to face off with the opponent, you have a pretty good idea what he is going to do, you are prepared for what might come. Are you prepared to deal with a knife? Are you ready for a surprise scenario where the opponent closes on you before you even know he is there? All I said is that the typical street thug is not going to be a highly conditioned or highly trained MMA fighter. Dirty tricks, blind-side attacks, and use of weapons are more likely than Jabs, roundhouse kicks, and wrestling takedowns. That's the reality I'm talking about!
tc101
03-03-2014, 05:20 AM
Yes yes it is an idea for beginners that some use to explain alignment only there is no triangle in reality.
Triangular alignment is just a real as the centerline, the inside/outside line, etc. Sure, its an idea for beginners. But that doesn't mean you stop using it when no longer a beginner! Good alignment is important in Wing Chun.
Triangular alignment is an idea some use to teach beginners but it is false idea and one that comes with all sorts of problems. It is a bad idea.
Here is the reality you will very very very often or let's say most often in sparring or fighting find yourself in situations you do not want to be in. THAT is the nature of fighting.
Of course. Where did I say otherwise?
Since that is the case you must focus on dealing with that not with best case scenarios.
This is why I hate it when guys who do not spar or fight start talking about what to do in sparring or fighting. Things most often do not work as you want them to. Your statement of I would step this way while breaking his structure is a good example. You might TRY that but you cannot count on being able to do it.
Dude, you are SO full of it! I said "likely" as in I would do what the situation dictated at the time. I was simply giving a "for example". I really hate it when guys that are so focused on sparring forget that fighting on the street is NOT the same thing. I really hate it when someone's response to almost every thread is "you obviously do not spar or fight".
I am sorry but when you have people who so obviously have not spent any time really sparring talking about how others should fight it needs to be pointed out. Your fighting on the street is not the same thing as sparring is what guys who never spar always say as though it helps them. It doesn't. You are absolutely right that a street fight is not sparring. Sparring is where we learn to fight. Sparring is where we get better at fighting. So if a person has not put in the time to learn how to fight how in the world can they talk about fighting? If a person cannot fight under controlled conditions how in the world can the in uncontrolled conditions? Yes street is not the gym but if you can't do it in the gym you will not be able to on the street.
Your trading blows is a mistake comment proves to me you do not spar and have not trained with a fight trainer because this view is only held by people who do not spar or fight. Here is the good advice you will hear again and again from good fight trainers- when in doubt trade punches.
Again....here is the fundamental difference between someone so focused on gym sparring and forgetting the reality (uh oh, did I say reality?) of real fighting. On the street I don't know if the guy has knife or not. I WILL NOT stand in front of him and trade blows if I can help it because one of his blows may very well be delivered with a blade! When in doubt, and given the opportunity....RUN!
You do not get it. It would be swell if we could do what we wanted in a fight. Sparring and fighting teaches you that this is not so. You have to deal with what is. If some guy is pounding on you then you will not be able to just run away. If it were no one would ever be beaten up lol. He is reigning down blows already hitting you. what do you do? You hit him back. If you can't do that you have no chance.
Guys who have not learned to fight but think they know how will give advice like do not trade punches and so forth. This is not a style thing it is an experience thing. Guys who have learned to fight which you only do through sparring and lots of it will tell you different.
Now you will want to argue with me why you think this is crazy because you will explain to me how you think things should go in sparring. I am telling you how you think they should go is not how they really go and that the only way to really grasp that is through experience.
I'm telling you that I don't give a **** how things will go in sparring. You are "Mr. Reality" but your reality seems to end at the door to your gym.
The gym and through sparring is where you see reality. You are not getting into street fights. You know less about street fights than you know of sparring. Do you not see this is the problem? You are not talking about things as they really are but how you think they are and your thinking is based on no experience.
I have no doubt you know wing chun very well. That is the toolbox. Sparring is the process where you learn what fighting really is, what you can really do and not do, how you can put together things for yourself, how to make the tools work for you and so on.
I look at wing chun from a fighting context because how else can you look at it?
As self-protection. As street-defense. As combative training. None of those are the same as competitive sparring. Now you will want to argue with me why you think this is crazy because you will explain to me how things go in sparring. But I'll ask you this....why does every example of Wing Chun sparring typically look nothing like the Wing Chun we practice. Even Alan Orr's guys that have had good success lose good Wing Chun form when sparring. So why practice it the way we do and not the way it looks in sparring? The thing that seems to work the best in competitive sparring is some form of kickboxing. So if competitive sparring is your thing, why not just practice kickboxing? If you are so focused on competitive sparring, why are you not doing MMA instead of Wing Chun? Why waste time with forms, and Chi Sao, etc when you could just spar with kickboxing all the time???
Wing chun practice is unrealistic and unrealistic practice just like in boxing focuses on learning the tools and sharpening the tools not on using the tools. Your question is really why does unrealistic practice not look like realistic practice? Here is the rub -- you do not know what the realistic use of wing chun looks like. You think it should look like something but this is not based in reality on doing it that way in sparring but how you want them to work. Your question is really why do wing chun fighters not look like Ai think it should look?
Wing chun first and foremost is about controlling the centerline. The Orr fighters use wing chun movement and they focus on trying to control the centerline.
What you do not get is that you learn to fight and get better at fighting through sparring, that is where you develop that ability and no where else. It does not matter if street cage ring mat or whatever.
I do not train for best case scenarios where my opponent can't fight is out of shape and expects me to just stand there and take what he dishes. I train for worst case scenarios where my opponent can fight is in shape and expects me to put up a fight. If I can deal with worst case the best case is easy.
Yeah, but even in your "worst case" scenario in competitive sparring you have time to face off with the opponent, you have a pretty good idea what he is going to do, you are prepared for what might come. Are you prepared to deal with a knife? Are you ready for a surprise scenario where the opponent closes on you before you even know he is there? All I said is that the typical street thug is not going to be a highly conditioned or highly trained MMA fighter. Dirty tricks, blind-side attacks, and use of weapons are more likely than Jabs, roundhouse kicks, and wrestling takedowns. That's the reality I'm talking about!
You are talking scenarios or situations. I am talking about skill development. If you do not have the skills you will not be able to deal with the situation regardless of what it is. Your only real chance is to develop your skills which BY THEIR VERY NATURE ARE ADAPTIVE.
You keep referring to things in the you want to do this manner (break structure, not trade and so forth) and what I am saying is much of this is not based on what you want to do but what you must do and you learn that going through sparring and fighting. You do not trade punches because you want to. I would like it if my opponent could not hit me at all. But what do you do when he actually is reigning punches on you? Because that will happen.
Triangular alignment is an idea some use to teach beginners but it is false idea and one that comes with all sorts of problems. It is a bad idea.
Just because you repeat the same statement doesn't make it true. Once again, I'm starting to question your understanding of good Wing Chun.
Your fighting on the street is not the same thing as sparring is what guys who never spar always say as though it helps them.
And your "sparring is the be all and end all" is what gym rats say to make them feel good about all the time they spend sparring with their buddies. And you didn't answer the question....why is it that when Wing Chun guys do a lot of competitive sparring what they do ends up looking like some form of kickboxing and not much like Wing Chun? Or the question...if you are so focused on success in competitive sparring why are you wasting your time with Wing Chun and not practicing MMA?
Yes street is not the gym but if you can't do it in the gym you will not be able to on the street.
Yes, but let's just ignore the stories about MMA guys getting their asses handed to them on the street. Let's ignore the fact that one of the most "street defense oriented" systems out there...Krav Maga...doesn't spend a lot of time doing competitive sparring.
You do not get it. It would be swell if we could do what we wanted in a fight. Sparring and fighting teaches you that this is not so. You have to deal with what is.
And you seem to be kind of dense. I said this is what I would "likely" do, then I noted it would be based on the circumstances that I would have to adapt to. Does that sound like I'm saying I can do whatever I want?
If some guy is pounding on you then you will not be able to just run away. If it were no one would ever be beaten up lol. He is reigning down blows already hitting you. what do you do? You hit him back. If you can't do that you have no chance.
Again, are you DENSE! :rolleyes: I said "if given the opportunity...RUN"! If some guy is pounding on you are you just going to stand there like a dummy and let him? If I'm already getting pounded and the guy is reigning down blows doesn't it make more sense to try and get away than it does to just stubbornly stand there and continue to get pounded? Again...the difference between a gym sparring mentality and a street reality mentality.
The gym and through sparring is where you see reality. You are not getting into street fights. You know less about street fights than you know of sparring.
Isn't it interesting that the guys teaching defensive handgun aren't going out and getting into gunfights either. Or the guys teaching rape defense aren't going out and walking the mean streets at night hoping to attract a rapist. Or the DS teaching bayonet to new recruits isn't going out and looking for bayonet fights.
I have no doubt you know wing chun very well. That is the toolbox. Sparring is the process where you learn what fighting really is, what you can really do and not do, how you can put together things for yourself, how to make the tools work for you and so on.
BS. Competitive sparring will teach you how to spar competitively. That's why it all ends up looking like some form of kickboxing. However, various defensive drills that ramp up the reality level a step at a time until it approaches a real encounter it what teaches you to use your toolbox the way it was designed to be used.
Wing chun practice is unrealistic and unrealistic practice just like in boxing focuses on learning the tools and sharpening the tools not on using the tools.
Again, BS. You fight the way you train.
Your question is really why does unrealistic practice not look like realistic practice? Here is the rub -- you do not know what the realistic use of wing chun looks like.
Oh, and you do? :rolleyes:
Wing chun first and foremost is about controlling the centerline. The Orr fighters use wing chun movement and they focus on trying to control the centerline.
Ok. Then why not just take a kickboxer and teach him how to control the centerline?
You keep referring to things in the you want to do this manner (break structure, not trade and so forth) and what I am saying is much of this is not based on what you want to do but what you must do and you learn that going through sparring and fighting.
You just said that Wing Chun is about controlling the centerline. Isn't that something you "want" to do? What's the difference between me saying I "want to break structure" and you saying "I want to control the centerline"??? You may or may not be able to do either one!!
You do not trade punches because you want to. I would like it if my opponent could not hit me at all. But what do you do when he actually is reigning punches on you? Because that will happen.
Nobody said it wouldn't! You haven't been following me at all, have you? I don't know why I bother because you, like Terrence Niehoff, are never going to see the other side of the argument. You just want to point out to others how wonderful you are because you spar regularly and how crappy everyone is because they don't. You just want to make yourself feel good because you spar, regardless of how little Wing Chun you might actually know or how many years of training you have. You see sparring as the be all and end all and want to ignore the concepts and design of Wing Chun itself. You think you have to reinvent the wheel rather than trust that our Wing Chun ancestors just might have known what they were doing when they designed the system. I don't spar regularly right now because of circumstances. But that doesn't mean I haven't in the past.
The fact is that the vast majority of people practicing Wing Chun throughout the world aren't doing it in an MMA gym and sparring with non-Wing Chun people regularly. So the few that are feel this lofty sense of self-importance when they are able to criticize those that don't. If you want to come back to us and report your experiences for everyone else's edification, then great! But don't look down on the typical Wing Chun student who is doing things the "old fashioned" way! And don't laugh at and belittle classical and traditional Wing Chun teaching because you think it doesn't apply to your games of competitive sparring.
I know I'm not the only one here that thinks this way. So why am I the only one that ends up bantering with tc101? He feels justified in blasting traditional Wing Chun teaching because very few people here will call him on it. Guys, why come to a discussion forum if you have nothing to say?
Your fighting on the street is not the same thing as sparring is what guys who never spar always say as though it helps them. It doesn't. You are absolutely right that a street fight is not sparring. Sparring is where we learn to fight. Sparring is where we get better at fighting. So if a person has not put in the time to learn how to fight how in the world can they talk about fighting?
And how often does one get ambushed on the street? If one doesn't focus on sparring because they train for "the streets", then they are basically never fight-training. If one doesn't spar, I don't know what they are doing in martial arts.
Guys who have not learned to fight but think they know how will give advice like do not trade punches and so forth. This is not a style thing it is an experience thing.
When you say "trade punches" it paints the picture of standing at range in equal position and throwing punches back and forth. That is not the strategy of Wing Chun. Of course, that is not to say fighting has to look like chi-sau. I would say Alan Orr, you guys mentioned, is a good example of someone who understands that Wing Chun is about overall body behavior rather than applying shapes that look like something. That body behavior is not one of "trading punches" though, but nor is it trying to look like something- whatever idea someone has of what Wing Chun fighting should look like.
And how often does one get ambushed on the street? If one doesn't focus on sparring because they train for "the streets", then they are basically never fight-training. If one doesn't spar, I don't know what they are doing in martial arts.
I see a difference between the competitive sparring tc1o1 is talking about and drilling things realistically. The Inosanto Academy guys call it "progressive sparring." Its more like our "Gor Sao" training, but not necessarily against an opponent that is also doing Wing Chun. You can "pressure test" certain things without just jumping in the ring and sparring. In a competitive sparring situation there may never be an opportunity to apply certain things from Wing Chun, or the student may just not THINK to apply them! So they never really get trained. That's why guys that just spar all the time end up looking like some form of kickboxing. Its because this kind of sparring doesn't necessarily bring out good Wing Chun technique.
Its because this kind of sparring doesn't necessarily bring out good Wing Chun technique.
What is good Wing Chun technique?
What is good Wing Chun technique?
That would probably vary depending upon the source! But it should at least be recognizable as Wing Chun!
tc101
03-03-2014, 07:37 AM
When you say "trade punches" it paints the picture of standing at range in equal position and throwing punches back and forth. That is not the strategy of Wing Chun. Of course, that is not to say fighting has to look like chi-sau. I would say Alan Orr, you guys mentioned, is a good example of someone who understands that Wing Chun is about overall body behavior rather than applying shapes that look like something. That body behavior is not one of "trading punches" though, but nor is it trying to look like something- whatever idea someone has of what Wing Chun fighting should look like.
Do you think boxers WANT to trade punches? Of course not. They would love it if they could simply hit the other guy and not have him hit us. But that is not the reality of fighting. Often in fighting it is not a matter of what we WANT to do but what we NEED to do to survive. When you put in the time sparring and if you train with a fight trainers you will learn that you often NEED to trade punches, that is the best thing you can do in the situation regardless of what you WANT to do and regardless of what you think your strategy should be.
Do you think boxers WANT to trade punches? Of course not. .
Oh, so that's why they typically stand right in front of each other? That's why their primary defense is to cover up rather than control an arm? That's why they don't do takedowns, sweeps, throws, etc? Dude, boxing is all about trading punches! Maybe someone like a Muhammed Ali can dance around and avoid taking shots as much as possible, but there is no getting around the fact that boxing is all about trading punches!
Often in fighting it is not a matter of what we WANT to do but what we NEED to do to survive. When you put in the time sparring and if you train with a fight trainers you will learn that you often NEED to trade punches, that is the best thing you can do in the situation regardless of what you WANT to do and regardless of what you think your strategy should be.
If you degenerate so badly that you can only stand and swing, you need to take a step back from sparring and increase the pressure slowly since it's obviously too much for you at that point.
Ali. R
03-03-2014, 08:53 AM
I can see what he’s talking about with the pak far as being in the right position for usage and while keepping from being hit. But, if one uses chum with their pak da, he/she could bridge walk his opponent’s free hand while keeping him/her (opponent) in a defensive set (with good timing) , and literally turning your opponent’s defensive limb into a hot wheel track, which will lead your strike or attack right to his skull when using that approach.
Take care,
Frost
03-03-2014, 10:38 AM
Oh, so that's why they typically stand right in front of each other? That's why their primary defense is to cover up rather than control an arm? That's why they don't do takedowns, sweeps, throws, etc? Dude, boxing is all about trading punches! Maybe someone like a Muhammed Ali can dance around and avoid taking shots as much as possible, but there is no getting around the fact that boxing is all about trading punches!
nope boxing is about trying to knock the other guy out but..
maybe because through countless hours of actual sparring and fighting they have realised its near impossible to flank an opponent who actually moves, that reaching for an arm and trying to control it gets you knocked out...and that gasp sweeps and throws aren't allowed in boxing...and covering up is the basic boxing defence, slipping parrying, bobbing are also used its just that when an opponent is actually trying to take your head off sometimes covering is a good idea, hence mma and Thai boxers also use it...
Ali. R
03-03-2014, 11:21 AM
Dude, boxing is all about trading punches! Maybe someone like a Muhammed Ali can dance around and avoid taking shots as much as possible, but there is no getting around the fact that boxing is all about trading punches!
True, because knock outs should always come naturally (for a pro), just like wing chun nothing is forced, because that could be very dangerous when dealing with a smart fighter.
Knock outs are done and based mostly on the progression of the fight, and from a pro point of view; Why rush it? And, "a good fighter can win a fight with just a Jab".
Take care,
tc101
03-04-2014, 05:13 AM
Oh, so that's why they typically stand right in front of each other? That's why their primary defense is to cover up rather than control an arm? That's why they don't do takedowns, sweeps, throws, etc? Dude, boxing is all about trading punches! Maybe someone like a Muhammed Ali can dance around and avoid taking shots as much as possible, but there is no getting around the fact that boxing is all about trading punches!
Try to grasp this point they don't try to stand in front of each other but in fighting that is what is going to happen. Your opponent will actively try to prevent you from flanking him and will immediately regain facing should you manage to. If I put you in the ring you would see this for yourself.
Trading punches is not what boxing is all about. But trading punches is inevitable for ANYONE who spar or fights you see in in Muay Thai, kick boxing, mma and so forth. This is what I am trying to explain that the people who do not spar or fight think things based on no real experience.
You seriously think you will control someone's arm who is fighting you? Why don't you go try to do just that and have your eyes opened.
tc101
03-04-2014, 05:24 AM
If you degenerate so badly that you can only stand and swing, you need to take a step back from sparring and increase the pressure slowly since it's obviously too much for you at that point.
Trading punches is not standing there and swinging. I am not talking about being outclassed either. What I am describing is what happens in sparring and fighting. Those who are doing it understand.
What do you do when you just can't keep him off you and you are eating punches? You fight back. At the very least you are hitting him while you eat punches! The closer he gets the harder you hit. You make him respect you. If he has no respect for your ability to hurt him he will be all over you. This is the reality of sparring or fighting. Also if you cannot trade punches THAT means you are probably fighting above your level.
tc101
03-04-2014, 05:28 AM
That would probably vary depending upon the source! But it should at least be recognizable as Wing Chun!
Why do you not SHOW us what wing chun fighting looks like?
You see I am not trying to be funny but trying to show that the very question of what should it look like announces the person asking is not sparring or fighting. If a person is sparring or fighting it looks like what they are doing.
You see I am not trying to be funny but trying to show that the very question of what should it look like announces the person asking is not sparring or fighting. If a person is sparring or fighting it looks like what they are doing.
Same mantra I see! See post #15!
Trading punches is not standing there and swinging. I am not talking about being outclassed either. What I am describing is what happens in sparring and fighting. Those who are doing it understand.
.
Looks like he's got you pegged as a "non-fighter" too LFJ! ;) We need to just start calling tc101 "Terrence", since he doesn't use a real name.
Trading punches is not standing there and swinging. I am not talking about being outclassed either. What I am describing is what happens in sparring and fighting. Those who are doing it understand.
KPM first used the term "trading blows" in this thread. What he was talking about was what the guy was doing in the original video. He said "standing directly in front of an opponent and trading blows is a mistake."
You just grabbed the last part, "trading blows is a mistake", ignored the first part and changed the definition without telling anyone so that you can say he and everyone else doesn't spar or fight or train realistically and would understand you if they did. :rolleyes:
tc101
03-05-2014, 04:39 AM
KPM first used the term "trading blows" in this thread. What he was talking about was what the guy was doing in the original video. He said "standing directly in front of an opponent and trading blows is a mistake."
You just grabbed the last part, "trading blows is a mistake", ignored the first part and changed the definition without telling anyone so that you can say he and everyone else doesn't spar or fight or train realistically and would understand you if they did. :rolleyes:
I thought you weren't one of the eye rollers.
When you spar or fight you WILL for the very most part find yourself in front of your opponent. Do you think people will just let you flank them? That is where the fight will happen for the most part.
You guys are not getting it. When you spar or fight you will very very very often have to deal with not what you want but what you don't want. Your opponent is actively trying to not let you do what you want and impose what he wants. Some people seem to think that just because they want to do something or think it a great idea things will go that way. If a person is really sparring he will see that for the most part he will be in front of his opponent, that he will need to trade punches, that he won't be controlling their cog or arm, and so forth.
Let me ask you a question. What is the single most important skill or ability in offense? What is the single most important skill or ability in defense? I will give you a clue. It is the same thing.
KPM first used the term "trading blows" in this thread. What he was talking about was what the guy was doing in the original video. He said "standing directly in front of an opponent and trading blows is a mistake."
You just grabbed the last part, "trading blows is a mistake", ignored the first part and changed the definition without telling anyone so that you can say he and everyone else doesn't spar or fight or train realistically and would understand you if they did. :rolleyes:
Nailed it!!!!
You guys are not getting it. When you spar or fight you will very very very often have to deal with not what you want but what you don't want.
.
Has anyone, ANYONE here said differently???? No, I think you are the one that isn't "getting it."
I mentioned a street thug possibly having a knife....but I think you just glossed by that one. That is certainly something you DON'T want to deal with...but just might have to! So no, its you with your competitive sparring mentality that just doesn't "get it." But just keep on repeating your mantra Terrence.
tc101
03-05-2014, 05:17 AM
Looks like he's got you pegged as a "non-fighter" too LFJ! ;) We need to just start calling tc101 "Terrence", since he doesn't use a real name.
What do you mean use a real name KPM? Like you I use my initials and have told people my name.
What I hear are people who are really NOT doing what they are talking about trying to argue with me about how the things they think will work in fighting or sparring really will. You think you will be able to control someone's cog who is fighting with you or control their arm or take their flank or not trade punches or whatever. I am trying to tell you as someone who has put in the time sparring who has been around many many many others who have put in even more time and who have been around very good fight trainers that things are not how you think they are. I can tell you but of course you will not believe me. You will not believe me because you have not experienced it for yourself.
Consider something as most basic as the ability to land solid shots. How do you think a person develops that skill or ability? In sparring. That is the only place you can develop that ability. You can't just do it because you want to or develop it in unrealistic drills or have the inborn ability. It is a very difficult thing to develop. You are trying to SOLIDLY hit a very fast moving target that is trying to not let you hit him and who is trying to actively hit you with solid shots. You develop and continue to develop that ability through practicing trying to do it which is sparring. This ability is the principal skill and basis of your overall ability to fight. Without that nothing else will work in a striking art.
Anything else you do in sparring or fighting will be subject to what you are doing to land solid shots, how you are moving to land solid shots, and so forth to accomplish landing solid shots. That skill or ability is the horse and everything else is the cart.
You may say this is all very well but what has that got to do with the topic at hand? Well a person who has not developed that skill for himself and that skill is developed only through a great deal of sparring cannot tell anybody how to do it or what they should do to do it or whatever. They will just be talking out their rear end because they do not know. They do not know the real problems the real solutions and so forth since they have not gone through the process of developing the skill.
If a person has not developed this most basic skill which is the basis for everything else,how can they know how to put the rest of it together?
tc101
03-05-2014, 05:26 AM
Has anyone, ANYONE here said differently???? No, I think you are the one that isn't "getting it."
I mentioned a street thug possibly having a knife....but I think you just glossed by that one. That is certainly something you DON'T want to deal with...but just might have to! So no, its you with your competitive sparring mentality that just doesn't "get it." But just keep on repeating your mantra Terrence.
As you no doubt recall I work as a LEO on the streets so I think I do have a greater appreciation for that than you.
What I am talking about here is the skill building process. Sparring is where you develop your fighting skills. It is where you put things together, yes yes yes I know the street is not the gym or ring. I know that better than you because I am out there. I am saying that the skills you develop in the gym are the skills you will use on the street. If you want to solidly hit some opponent on the street where do you think you will have developed that skill or ability?
What do you think you will do if you face a street thug with a knife? You will use what fighting skills you have to try and prevail.
If you want to be able to solidly strike a street thug with a knife where do you think you develop that ability?
What do you mean use a real name KPM? Like you I use my initials and have told people my name.
You're not very observant. My full name is at the bottom of every post I write.
You think you will be able to control someone's cog who is fighting with you or control their arm or take their flank or not trade punches or whatever. I am trying to tell you as someone who has put in the time sparring who has been around many many many others who have put in even more time and who have been around very good fight trainers that things are not how you think they are. I can tell you but of course you will not believe me. You will not believe me because you have not experienced it for yourself.
You are right. I don't think you know what you are talking about. I have provided several valid examples of controlling or affecting an opponent's COG. You think someone can't "take the flank" when fighting? You think someone isn't able to avoid standing toe to toe and "trading punches" in a fight? IMHO, your simple comment above just lost you any credibility you may have had. I will ask again....for what...the third or fourth time?....why do you even bother with Wing Chun? Why aren't you just doing MMA? You say you are speaking from lofty experience which makes you an expert. Well, I think your experience must suck. Maybe you've only trained with scrubs. Because what you say above just doesn't make sense. And it doesn't match my experience training REAL Wing Chun, and escrima, and silat.
only through a great deal of sparring cannot tell anybody how to do it or what they should do to do it or whatever. They will just be talking out their rear end because they do not know.
There's the mantra again! Thanks Terrence!
As you no doubt recall I work as a LEO on the streets so I think I do have a greater appreciation for that than you.
Then why in the world are you being so narrow-minded on this whole topic! You above all others should know that what works in the gym doesn't necessarily work in the street! How many police tactics involve gaining control of an assailant's arm? How in the heck do you cuff them otherwise??? Do police tactics teach you to stand right in front of someone and trade blows rather than angle away, flank them, or otherwise gain the advantage?
What I am talking about here is the skill building process. Sparring is where you develop your fighting skills.
No. Competitive sparring is where you develop the ability to spar competitively. It is not going to develop some of the finer points of Wing Chun that simply do not show up in a friendly sparring match with your buddy. Its that simple. But I'm sure you also glossed over my mention of progressive sparring drills.
yes yes yes I know the street is not the gym or ring. I know that better than you because I am out there.
Sure can't tell that from what you've been posting!!!!!!!
What do you think you will do if you face a street thug with a knife? You will use what fighting skills you have to try and prevail.
So you will stand right and front of him and trade blows? You won't try to gain control of his knife hand? You won't try to side-step or angle away or flank him to avoid the knife? You're going to do the same things you typically do during a friendly sparring match with your buddies? Good luck with that!!
I thought you weren't one of the eye rollers.
I'm usually not until someone very obviously isn't trying hard to understand what people are saying, or purposefully changes definitions in order to sound more street...
When you spar or fight you WILL for the very most part find yourself in front of your opponent. Do you think people will just let you flank them? That is where the fight will happen for the most part.
I think you should rewind. Go back to the original video, to the specific timestamp and watch what the guy was doing. This is what KPM was referring to when he said standing in front of your opponent trading blows is a mistake. Are you saying planting your feet in front of your opponent and trying to block and throw back from that spot is going to happen to us whether we like it or not? If so, like I said before, I think you should take a step back from free sparring and dial up the pressure slowly since you're in over your head at that point. If not, then whatever you're saying is just another situation altogether and has nothing to do with what KPM said is a mistake.
tc101
03-06-2014, 05:15 AM
As you no doubt recall I work as a LEO on the streets so I think I do have a greater appreciation for that than you.
Then why in the world are you being so narrow-minded on this whole topic! You above all others should know that what works in the gym doesn't necessarily work in the street! How many police tactics involve gaining control of an assailant's arm? How in the heck do you cuff them otherwise??? Do police tactics teach you to stand right in front of someone and trade blows rather than angle away, flank them, or otherwise gain the advantage?
Here is what I am talking about what makes you think you will be able to do these things?
People are not born with realistic ideas of what really works in fighting and most people do not have enough experience to be able to evaluate what works or doesn't or whatever. Because of TV movies stories and so forth most people have very very unrealistic ideas of fighting. Unrealistic practices and training while necessary only reinforces unrealistic ideas. To put it another way unrealistic practices give us unrealistic ideas of fighting. Only realistic training which involves sparring gives us realistic ideas.
How do LEOs gain control of an arrestees arm? Typically they either acquiesce or are forcibly taken down. You can't do it standing. Even once they are down if they continue to struggle it can be impossible without aid like another officer or a taser. You can have your inexperienced ideas of how you think it should work but they are not based in reality of lots of experience really doing it.
The what works in the gym doesn't necessarily work on the street is misleading. Skills are practiced and developed in the gym. Where else will you develop them. Those skills are adaptable. If you can't do it in the gym against someone fighting you what makes you think you will be able to do it on the street?
What I am talking about here is the skill building process. Sparring is where you develop your fighting skills.
No. Competitive sparring is where you develop the ability to spar competitively. It is not going to develop some of the finer points of Wing Chun that simply do not show up in a friendly sparring match with your buddy. Its that simple. But I'm sure you also glossed over my mention of progressive sparring drills.
Yes sparring does develop your ability to spar you are right. What are you doing when you spar? You are using your art against someone trying to fight you back. You are developing your ability to use your art against someone fighting you or to put it another way develop your fighting skills.
yes yes yes I know the street is not the gym or ring. I know that better than you because I am out there.
Sure can't tell that from what you've been posting!!!!!!!
No No no it is just another example of having ideas not based in reality. You are not out on the streets really doing these things but you think you know what it is like and what will work. This is the attitude I am talking about. I am saying if you do not really do it then your ideas will be unrealistic and not based in reality. This is true of sparring or street.
What do you think you will do if you face a street thug with a knife? You will use what fighting skills you have to try and prevail.
So you will stand right and front of him and trade blows? You won't try to gain control of his knife hand? You won't try to side-step or angle away or flank him to avoid the knife? You're going to do the same things you typically do during a friendly sparring match with your buddies? Good luck with that!!
The sparring I am talking about is not an occassional friendly sparring match with your buddy but a progressive process that takes years that is very intense that develops your fighting skills, it is the process fighters go through.
What I do suggest is not listening to people who can't do it and aren't doing it tell you how to do it.
How do LEOs gain control of an arrestees arm? Typically they either acquiesce or are forcibly taken down. You can't do it standing. Even once they are down if they continue to struggle it can be impossible without aid like another officer or a taser.
Hence the focus on the punch in VT. The number one criticism we get from other WC systems is that we lack a bunch of different techniques and are therefore comparatively "incomplete". But then people who switch systems often do so after realizing the superfluous stuff only works in class with their likeminded training partners. VT is simple for practical reasons.
tc101
03-06-2014, 06:43 AM
Hence the focus on the punch in VT. The number one criticism we get from other WC systems is that we lack a bunch of different techniques and are therefore comparatively "incomplete". But then people who switch systems often do so after realizing the superfluous stuff only works in class with their likeminded training partners. VT is simple for practical reasons.
I agree with you about the simplicity of wing chun. That is what attracted me to it.
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