Move your front foot first or move your back foot first?

[YouKnowWho]

In the following video, when he moves forward or left, he moves his "front" foot first, his back foot then follow.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jIt5W3JAnUE

He can also move his "back" foot first, his front foot then moves forward or moves to the left.

What's the difference here? Which method do you prefer and why? Your thought?

[David Jamieson]

I think that you need to move the foot that needs to be moved to gain the position of strength according to your reckoning and using the base of the style you use. Orthodoxy will often fail when it comes to the real dynamics of fighting being the gist of it.

[Kellen Bassette]

Front to back for standard attack/defense, back to front is an explosive, fully committed attack. Depends on strategy.

[GoldenBrain]

I don't prefer one or the other. They go hand and hand so I use both. In Kali we train male and female triangle stepping. The male triangle is pointed toward the opponent, and the female is pointed away. Here's a brief video I found which demonstrates this.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6qu3iXcBtiI

[GoldenBrain]

Here's another decent video of the triangle footwork in Kali Arnis.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EMJk99wlLJU

[Orion Paximus]

I get wanting to dissect martial techniques, especially some of the more esoteric stuff, but you keep making these threads asking black or white questions. The answer is always "do what needs to be done in the moment" always. Lead with front fist or cross with back depending on the moment. Throw your opponent or strike them in the groin depending on the moment. Move with front leg first or back leg depending on the moment.

[YouKnowWho]

The answer is always "do what needs to be done in the moment" always. Lead with front fist or cross with back depending on the moment. Throw your opponent or strike them in the groin depending on the moment. Move with front leg first or back leg depending on the moment.
If this issue is that simple, I won't even bother to start this thread.

A good footwork should reduce your risk to the minimum. Depending on the "distance between you and your opponent", which leg should move first can produce different risk factory. IMO, we should look at your footwork from your opponent's point of view and not just from your own point of view. In other words, when your opponent moves in, what kind of footwork that he performs can present you an opportunity for your attack?

We should look at this issue from both the "striker" as well as the "grappler" point of view. Even in striking, the kickers may share different view with punchers. For example, what's the best moment to send out your favor leading leg "side kick" when your opponent moves in? A pure puncher will never have to consider that.

In both the grappling art and the kicking art, you have "rooting leg" and "attacking leg". Depending on where you may land your "rooting leg", it defines the "effective attacking range" for your "attacking leg". Most grapplers/kickers will have their favor "rooting leg" and "attacking leg". A grappler has good "hip throw" on both sides, or a kicker has good "side kick" on both sides is not very common.

[YouKnowWho]

Since this forum has almost turned into a WC forum or "internal is better than external" discussion forum, I thought I could at least started a "general MA discussion" thread so everybody from all styles can participate. This is the least that I can do for this forum. :(

[mooyingmantis]

In mantis, we use both methods depending on the situation. Front, then back foot is faster and gives the opponent less time to respond. Back, then front is more powerful.

[YouKnowWho]

In mantis, we use both methods depending on the situation. Front, then back foot is faster and gives the opponent less time to respond. Back, then front is more powerful.

Also

- front and back will cover less space. I'll call it "1/2 step".
- back and front will cover more space. I'll call it "full step".

[No_Know]

I get wanting to dissect martial techniques, especially some of the more esoteric stuff, but you keep making these threads asking black or white questions. The answer is always "do what needs to be done in the moment" always. Lead with front fist or cross with back depending on the moment. Throw your opponent or strike them in the groin depending on the moment. Move with front leg first or back leg depending on the moment.


You say you want to dissect martial technique, yet all you seem to basically see is do what's right in the moment, which makes sense.[Dissection]Where do you get what's right to do in that particular moment?[Dissection]Your correct action is based on your interpretation[Dissection]Your interpretation is based on your assigning values to actions you presumed you'd face-you'd have to do drills or study what to do when things happen. The things you assigned are not givens for correct actions and easier said than done. Yes you do one step first or the other but where's your understanding coming from if you have any, for What makes you choose which step-Do you think people should just automatically /naturally know? Don't you think you need to understand how to interpret moments; and your understanding of the moments goes to your choosing which leg first which step first?

Throwing doesn't just happen because you say so on paper. If that's your experience then please excuse me O Sensei Ueshiba

There's things called distraction and being distracted. When Stuff goes down, some freeze(distracted), some think of loved ones(distraction), some might think what techniques they should do(distracted). If you can have the presence of mind to act even unexpectedly [Yes, expect the unexpected] and suitably to the situation...O.K. Buddha.

No_Know

To strike them in the groin you have to reach down there exposing your top or distancing you because you used your foot instead of your shin or knee...it can have a high chance of success, but not all drop or stop long if you connect well. It's worse if you glance off the thigh. And at some point now they close to punish you. Groin shots reduce in chances of success the more you try them. Stepping in could work, stepping back could help. Side stepping with a guarded technique could get you through to the next seconds. Even stepping in a good direction with a good foot first What's your top action..attack-press, push/buck, guarded--deflect, block, capture; evade--rear, feint, slip?

Do you still see No dissection...one might wonder.

No_Know

[YouKnowWho]

Throw your opponent ... depending on the moment.

The "hip throw (mother of all throws)" will require you to

1. move your right foot in front of your opponent's right foot.
2. move your left foot in front of his left foot.
3. your one arm wrap on his one arm.
4. your other arm wrap around his waist or under hook his shoulder.
5. You hip touch his belly.

Which leg to move first will decide whether you can achieve all the above 5 requirements or not. It's not as simple as "depending on the moment".

[No_Know]

Front first straight needs upper body distraction while bringing up your rear leg and establishing it. This allows you to set-up closer to person's inside. Or you use it to close the distance keeping your upper body still making it not noticeable that you're that much closer because there was not much side to side movement to alert them.

Front first outside is a distraction and final closing move. Front foot first might be pushing off the rear leg to make that happen, yet is still in movement-front first. Use front first to close-passive move. Front first outside puts the other side of your body closer to the opponent's center line while taking their eyes off of your other-side middle or low attack Consequences: you expose the rear leg side and back to a middle or high or from above angular as well as becoming groin accessible (not an issue in a ring type event).

Rear leg first to support forward movement.

Sidestep to keep distance while person is closing. Use this as a spring board to close.

No_Know

[Orion Paximus]

i'm saying in a fight, you can create situations that are optimal for techniques but you also have to be able to be reactionary too.

Say your opponent is left foot forward and you are left foot forward and you know one of you has to step in to get into fighting range. You assume the opponent is going to step right to reach you so you plan to step right on the outside to intercept for the throw, but instead of stepping your opponent hops in left foot forward to deliver the strike. you started moving when they did to intercept but now you are on the inside and not outside. To attempt the throw now is ludicrous. So you have to change and adapt to the situation. Maybe twist stance into groin hit or back sweep to continue with your momentum and catch them while they are still moving.

All I'm saying is that in a fight or even sparring, it's always a bit of chaos with and guesswork. Even if you are particularly good at the feint and opening up your opponent, ultimately they may not react the way you needed them to.

[TaichiMantis]

Also

- front and back will cover less space. I'll call it "1/2 step".
- back and front will cover more space. I'll call it "full step".

Yes to MYM and YKW above. Do you bounce or shuffle? Why?

[YouKnowWho]

Yes to MYM and YKW above. Do you bounce or shuffle? Why?

If I use the "back foot advance first" footwork to kick, I'll jump up a little so my kick can be like a jumping kick that combine footwork and kick in 1 motion for speed, If I just use that footwork to enter, I won't jump.

Here is an example.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lRPSQS9HCDQ

[-N-]

If I use the "back foot advance first" footwork to kick, I'll jump up a little so my kick can be like a jumping kick that combine footwork and kick in 1 motion for speed, If I just use that footwork to enter, I won't jump.

Your kick examples usually show kick to knee/thigh. Do you not like kick to inside/outside of lower leg to turn or break his footwork?

It can be faster, and it helps give you his arm.

[YouKnowWho]

Your kick examples usually show kick to knee/thigh. Do you not like kick to inside/outside of lower leg to turn or break his footwork?

It can be faster, and it helps give you his arm.

The only 2 kicks that I like to use as part of my entering strategy are:

- kick to the knee,
- foot sweep to the ankle.

To me, those 2 has the least risk involved.

If my opponent kicks the inside or outside of my

- lower leg, I'll turn my shin bone into it. I can also use "跪腿(Gui Tui)" to bend my knee back to let his kick to go pass under my leg. I can then use "补踢(Bu Ti)" to sweep back at his kicking leg ankle. Since I like to do this to my opponent. I don't like my opponent to do this to me, I try to avoid "kick to inside/outside of lower leg".
- upper leg, or body, I'll catch his leg. I also don't like to kick at my opponent's upper leg or body for the same reason.

The whole discussion is all about "risk".

[SteveLau]

Yep, I did review the footstep techniques three months ago. My conclusion is very similar to the first video clip shown in this thread except:

in moving backward, I move my front foot first. That will make myself move away from the opponent faster than moving the back foot first.


So I move my front foot first when I move forward or backward. Shuffle when we do not move in large distance; jump when we do. All these foot steps are done quickly so as to be effective and non-telepathy. Jump is anyway telepathy. But when even it is noticed, it is already more than half-completed because of the speed.



Regards,

KC
Hong Kong

[TaichiMantis]

Good stuff! I have learned to be more careful when I move. Up and down movement gave me away. I try to stay level when coming in.

[mooyingmantis]

Yes to MYM and YKW above. Do you bounce or shuffle? Why?

Jackie,
Shuffle, unless attacking with the forward knee then I would use a bounce (騰 挪 téng nuó) as in the first line of Beng Bu.

[YouKnowWho]

Jackie,
Shuffle, unless attacking with the forward knee then I would use a bounce (騰 挪 téng nuó) as in the first line of Beng Bu.

For attacking, I like to use the Gong Li Quan forward jumping.

I

- jump up with my leading left leg,
- land with my right leg,
- use stealing step to advance my left leg even further.

I used to be able to cover 15 feet distance by this footwork. I had used it in a challenge fight that I landed my right fist on my opponent's face.

[Faux Newbie]

I tend to describe things as though I'm in right lead.

I use:

1) Normal forward shuffles, where the front foot steps, the rear foot follows. This is most often the way I move forward, generally effective without giving up too many defensive options. Nothing special here, often do it with a jab, you get the idea.

2) stealing step? Where the rear leg creeps behind the front, and then the front moves forward. I'll sometimes do this after I slip a strike, to get a heavy hit in. The moment where the legs are closer together is the moment of highest risk, but it is a risk that is often worth it (sometimes not!) Often I do a heavy lead with it, a lead leg kick(as the rear leg moving up makes it quick to empty the lead leg), etc. I more often do this step after set up than on its own.

3) Stepping back with the rear foot first, the front foot catching up. If backing away from an opponent's advance, seeking to keep the same distance in order to stay in the game, but not going off the line the opponent is attacking me on, I'll do this, but if the opponent is advancing with a low line kick and there is risk of them connecting (and I'm obviously using footwork here as the main defense), then I will use #4 instead of this retreating step. I often follow this with a retreating jab, a low-line kick with my lead leg after the rear foot retreats. If I'm reading that the opponent is going for clinch, double leg, et al, in other words a dedicated entry that I'm not willing to take the risk that I can strike him out of, I don't do this step, instead doing a retreating switch step or other footwork.

4) Stepping back by bringing the lead leg back to where the rear leg is and bringing the rear leg further back as soon as the lead leg lands. I pretty much use this when the opponent is advanced into a kick towards my lead leg, it clears the lead leg out quickly, but the rear leg needs to get into place quickly in case the opponent is trying to carry the kick through to the rear knee. I may follow this with a low line lead leg kick, or other attack.

I know no one asked, but figured I'd share:

In side stepping I like to (again, assume right lead):

A) To shuffle right, right foot shuffles first, often I use a cross(or similar rear hand strike) after this because stepping to the lead side lines up the rear hand with the target, or a rear leg kick, as the moment the right foot lands, it's easy to make it weighted and thus free the rear leg for a kick.

B) To shuffle left, left foot shuffles first, often I use a jab as the right leg catches up, or a lead leg kick after the left foot's initial step, again because it is easier and quicker there to put weight on the left leg, emptying the lead for a kick.

Switch Steps:

On the rear switch step, where the lead leg goes back and becomes the rear leg, I mostly use a particular variation of this to stuff an aggressive forward charge, with the goal being to neutralize the charge as forcefully and suddenly as possible, and, at the moment the charge is dissipated, try to take the initiative with close combos(chops/hooks, uppercuts, etc, or, if too close for those, elbows knees and head butts).

The lead switch step, where the rear leg becomes the lead, I often do these after crosses, lead uppercuts in some cases, overhands, mainly after moves where I am forward in my stance by the end, and I use it to continue flurries of strikes where the opponent is forced back or retreating from a flurry, or to transition from longer strikes to closer range striking.

On stepping for slips(rear lead):
a) When slipping to the rear side, I like to slip slightly to my back quarter(this has to do with my fighting stance, where I sometimes choose to keep my upper line targets back to try to force the opponent to reach, by slipping to the back quarter, sometimes the temptation to go for the hit brings them close enough that, if I slip, almost all targets are in range for me, often without my having to step). I do not step back when slipping to my rear side, I either step with my left leg just slightly further left, not at all, or slightly forward, while my upper body slips toward my rear left quarter. If I stepped slightly forward, I am just wound up enough to follow up by hooking their lead foot while facing back into the target and striking, or kneeing(if the opportunity arises), or lead leg round kicking.

b) When slipping to the lead side, I also slip my upper body slightly to my right rear quarter, for the same reason. Usually, I move my lead leg to my right a bit. I often follow this up with a jab, or a rear leg cross kick.

Most other footwork for me relates more to throws, except in weapons, where strength is applied for different goals, and so some things that are not desirable to do in empty hand are highly desirable in weapons, imo.

[YouKnowWho]

1) the front foot steps, the rear foot follows.

You may have to take the risk to be swept. The moment that you advance your leading leg, the distance between you and your opponent has been reduced. If your opponent can't sweep you before, he can sweep you now.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4bDuztfCL8g

A) To shuffle right, right foot shuffles first.
B) To shuffle left, left foot shuffles first.

Same issue here, the moment that you have move your leading foot, the moment that distance between you and your opponent has been changed. If you always move your back foot first, you won't have this issue.

[Faux Newbie]

1) the front foot steps, the rear foot follows.

You may have to take the risk to be swept. The moment that you advance your leading leg, the distance between you and your opponent has been reduced. If your opponent can't sweep you before, he can sweep you now.



Of course. This is always the risk, but risk can also create opportunity. What step one takes and how is also dependent on what the opponent is doing at the time. At the right moment, the above shuffle is good. It allows for a more immediate strike, for instance, than the rear foot moving first. But it also has its risks at times.

For the record, scoring that kind of sweep is fun...

[YouKnowWho]

than the rear foot moving first. But it also has its risks at times.

When you move you back foot, the distance between you and your opponent will remain the same. If he can't kick/sweep you before, he still can't kick/sweep you now.

[MasterKiller]

If you stand orthodox:

Move forward, left
Move left, left
Move back, right
Move right, right

[Faux Newbie]

When you move you back foot, the distance between you and your opponent will remain the same. If he can't kick/sweep you before, he still can't kick/sweep you now.

This applies from pre-contact range, and does not necessarily apply to the midst of an exchange between two people. For entering, that is the risk of doing lead foot first, but the risk of doing rear foot first is that the opponent reads the intent and adjusts his pace in order to get in for a sweep at the moment that your feet are together.

The footwork itself does not decide the result, the ability to read the opponent does, so either method has vulnerabilities, like anything else, and which footwork to use is based on reading the opponent in many cases. I think both have their place, and I definitely think that each has vulnerabilities that an opponent can capitalize on.