Functional Training

[kung fu fighter]

Realistic perspective http://www.functionalselfdefense.org/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q9pbQclU9JM&list=UUVB_KQ5GtO9R2iqaWD5JcxQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rN7CydJqGRk&list=UUVB_KQ5GtO9R2iqaWD5JcxQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1QlKP2zXtzA&list=UUVB_KQ5GtO9R2iqaWD5JcxQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q74oxk65AZ4&list=UUVB_KQ5GtO9R2iqaWD5JcxQ

[Grumblegeezer]

Realistic perspective http://www.functionalselfdefense.org/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q9pbQclU9JM&list=UUVB_KQ5GtO9R2iqaWD5JcxQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rN7CydJqGRk&list=UUVB_KQ5GtO9R2iqaWD5JcxQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1QlKP2zXtzA&list=UUVB_KQ5GtO9R2iqaWD5JcxQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q74oxk65AZ4&list=UUVB_KQ5GtO9R2iqaWD5JcxQ

Nothing new here. Good WC and good FMA should always be simple and functional. Look at his empty hand vs knife defense stuff starting at about 6:10 in the first clip. Totally consistent with a WC approach. ...Although, realisticallly, you've gotta remember that empty hand vs. knife gives you crappy odds at best.

[KPM]

Didn't have time to watch them all, but I watched this one:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q9pbQclU9JM&list=UUVB_KQ5GtO9R2iqaWD5JcxQ


Here's a guy claiming to have studied knife work extensively and really trying to use a "realistic" approach. The approach he came up with is to not stand directly in front of a knife-wielding attacker and exchange, but rather to gain control of the attacker's arm and move to the side off-balancing him. Hmmmm....does that sound familiar to anyone that has followed any recent threads here?

[tc101]

Realistic perspective http://www.functionalselfdefense.org/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q9pbQclU9JM&list=UUVB_KQ5GtO9R2iqaWD5JcxQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rN7CydJqGRk&list=UUVB_KQ5GtO9R2iqaWD5JcxQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1QlKP2zXtzA&list=UUVB_KQ5GtO9R2iqaWD5JcxQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q74oxk65AZ4&list=UUVB_KQ5GtO9R2iqaWD5JcxQ

There is nothing realistic or functional in those clips. Just because people call their training functional or realistic does not make it so.

The idea of realistic and functional training is that you are practicing facing an unscripted opponent who is really fighting you back.

[tc101]

Didn't have time to watch them all, but I watched this one:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q9pbQclU9JM&list=UUVB_KQ5GtO9R2iqaWD5JcxQ


Here's a guy claiming to have studied knife work extensively and really trying to use a "realistic" approach. The approach he came up with is to not stand directly in front of a knife-wielding attacker and exchange, but rather to gain control of the attacker's arm and move to the side off-balancing him. Hmmmm....does that sound familiar to anyone that has followed any recent threads here?

Yes yes yes it is familiar. You have another guy showing stuff against someone who is not really fighting back but just feeding him and letting him do whatever he likes. Have the other guy really fight him back and he won't be able to do that stuff. It is really easy to fool yourself and others when you do unrealistic training like this.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=UQzbXkGNa8I

That is realistic training with the knife. You see that he won't let you control his arm take his flank and so forth.

[KPM]

Yes yes yes it is familiar. You have another guy showing stuff against someone who is not really fighting back but just feeding him and letting him do whatever he likes. Have the other guy really fight him back and he won't be able to do that stuff. It is really easy to fool yourself and others when you do unrealistic training like this.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=UQzbXkGNa8I

That is realistic training with the knife. You see that he won't let you control his arm take his flank and so forth.

Terrence, you are so FULL OF IT! Once again, that clip that you posted is SPARRING! And you think that is more realistic than the videos that started this thread????? Look closely at your clip. Both fighters were DEAD within less than a minute. They are standing right in front of each other and exchanging blows. BAD IDEA with knives. The first videos pointed out exactly this scenario and why it was a bad idea on the street. In your video they aren't controlling an arm and moving to the side because they aren't even TRYING to do that!

Did you even watch the clip I commented on? They picked one of the most common street attack scenarios that is based on real footage of knife assaults....what has been called the "sewing machine" attack....someone charging in with a pumping action delivering repeated stabs. Then he had his partner up the intensity and attack with his training knife as realistically as he could. Then he demo'd why various knife defense approaches won't work in that scenario leading up to what he thought WOULD work. And that WAS NOT standing right in front of the attacker and trying to trade shots.

And he is not the only one that has reached this conclusion. Marc Denny of Dog Brother's fame produced a video on knife defense using exactly the same kind of approach. He presented the "sewing machine" attack as the most likely street attack scenario, worked on it alot, and came up with a defensive method that he found worked the best. It was almost the exact same thing the guy shows in the first video. Marc called his technique the "Dog Catcher." You know what it was? It was a Wing Chun Gan/Jum or "high/low Gan Sao". He moved to the side to catch the attacker's arm in the crook of his Gan/Jum to stop it and immediately took the attacker off-balance to stop his momentum. And I don't think anyone would accuse the Dog Brothers of "unrealistic training"! You can see it in the first minute of this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jvF_iDurNEk

So in my opinion, your reply on this thread has once again shot any credibility you may have had in such matters.

[tc101]

Yes yes yes it was a sparring clip since sparring is functional and realistic training. Sparring is training. Let me repeat it sparring is training. Sparring is the way let me repeat it sparring is THE way you train realistically and functionally.

Realistic and functional training involves having a partner who acts in an unscripted way and really fights you back. Why is this realistic? Because when you fight someone they will will act in an unscripted way and really fight you back. Why is this functional? Because this training forces you to really use your tools in a way that works or functions for you when dealing with someone who acts in an unscripted way and fights you back.

If you see training that does not involve a partner who acts in an unscripted way and really fights back it is not realistic and functional training.

In the clip I posted he showed 2 training sessions and his improvement from the first to the second.

When people do not understand what realistic and functional training really is I think that means they have never really done any.

Twen

[BPWT..]

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=UQzbXkGNa8I

That is realistic training with the knife. You see that he won't let you control his arm take his flank and so forth.

To me this just looks as though the strategy is to "hope".

Hope you can get in a wild slash or stab, while hoping the other guy doesn't beat you to it, while hoping the random target turned out to be a viable one in the moment.

I wouldn't say this a good clip of realistic training. It's two guys attacking with a single slash, then resetting if they didn't hit, and often resetting even if they did hit.

[Grumblegeezer]

Yes yes yes it was a sparring clip since sparring is functional and realistic training.
--Twen

Twen, I have to disagree with your statement that "sparring is realistic training" when you are talking about blades. First off, because I have yet to see a blade-sparring format that can realistically duplicate the nature of combat where a light blow (cut or stab) can disable or fatally wound. And secondly knife attacks (as stated in the initial video) are often sudden and unanticipated assaults that don't allow the defender time to mount an effective defense.

The kind of blade to blade dueling presented in the video you provided seems like an extraordinarily unlikely scenario to me and therefore would still be unrealistic training, even though it was a good example of "sparring". By contrast, the first knife video in the OP which wasn't sparring (but was actually more of a demo) presented a more realistic perspective --although it's true that it doesn't present a prescription for realistic training.

Personally, I would like to get some input from the rest of you as to what really is the best way to train
blade defense, since conventional sparring methods like we do for empty hand and impact weapons don't do justice to the threat of a blade attack.

Oh and by the way, Mr. Cherba, thanks for using your real name. Maybe that will put and end to some of the silliness and snide remarks that others have been directing at you. --Steve

[tc101]

To me this just looks as though the strategy is to "hope".

Hope you can get in a wild slash or stab, while hoping the other guy doesn't beat you to it, while hoping the random target turned out to be a viable one in the moment.

I wouldn't say this a good clip of realistic training. It's two guys attacking with a single slash, then resetting if they didn't hit, and often resetting even if they did hit.

Remember that this is training just like sparring in boxing is training. The reason they stab then reset as you call it and don't continue attacking is because the other guy has a knife and will fight back by trying to stab them. The objective is to stab the other guy and not get stabbed yourself and avoid getting into a wrestling situation. That is what they are practicing. It is no more hope based than any other form of sparring.

Here's the deal you may not like what you see but you can see them really doing it unscripted with an opponent really fighting back.

[KPM]

Yes yes yes it was a sparring clip since sparring is functional and realistic training. Sparring is training. Let me repeat it sparring is training. Sparring is the way let me repeat it sparring is THE way you train realistically and functionally.

There it is. There is the mantra again. Just ignore what anyone else has pointed out and repeat the mantra.

Realistic and functional training involves having a partner who acts in an unscripted way and really fights you back.

Standing toe to toe and going tic for tat with knives is not realistic! At least not if you want to stay alive! Did you miss my point about them BOTH being dead within about a minute of their sparring match?

If you see training that does not involve a partner who acts in an unscripted way and really fights back it is not realistic and functional training.

There are various levels of training that are both "realistic" and "functional." This has been pointed out over and over. But you are so focused on competitive sparring that you refuse to see it.


When people do not understand what realistic and functional training really is I think that means they have never really done any.

I don't think you understand that there is valuable training other than competitive sparring. That must be because you have never really done any! :rolleyes:

Twen

Thanks for that at least! :)

[KPM]

Oh and by the way, Mr. Cherba, thanks for using your real name. Maybe that will put and end to some of the silliness and snide remarks that others have been directing at you. --Steve

Yes. Thanks for pointing this out Steve! If I was king I would make everyone use their real name as either their username or as a signature at the bottom of their posts. Its too easy to hide behind a faceless keyboard and talk crap when you are only a weird nickname or a collection of letters to everyone else. People will say things here that they would never say face to face. Using a name at least makes it a little more real.

[tc101]

Twen, I have to disagree with your statement that "sparring is realistic training" when you are talking about blades. First off, because I have yet to see a blade-sparring format that can realistically duplicate the nature of combat where a light blow (cut or stab) can disable or fatally wound. And secondly knife attacks (as stated in the initial video) are often sudden and unanticipated assaults that don't allow the defender time to mount an effective defense.

The kind of blade to blade dueling presented in the video you provided seems like an extraordinarily unlikely scenario to me and therefore would still be unrealistic training, even though it was a good example of "sparring". By contrast, the first knife video in the OP which wasn't sparring (but was actually more of a demo) presented a more realistic perspective --although it's true that it doesn't present a prescription for realistic training.


Realistic training means your opponent is unscripted and so unpredictable and is also really trying to fight you back. Of course with knives you can't really stab each other so there will always be that missing from the training.

Floro's takes the view that light cuts and slight stabs will not in most cases not be disabling or killing but more nuisance.

Yes I agree that many knife attacks are surprise attacks. If someone comes up behind you and stabs you in the back no training is going to help you.



Personally, I would like to get some input from the rest of you as to what really is the best way to train
blade defense, since conventional sparring methods like we do for empty hand and impact weapons don't do justice to the threat of a blade attack.

Oh and by the way, Mr. Cherba, thanks for using your real name. Maybe that will put and end to some of the silliness and snide remarks that others have been directing at you. --Steve

If you are talking about empty hand versus knife I think all of that is crazy. I think all knife stuff is pointless really sorry about the pun.

The crux of all this to me is when you fight some one they are going to be acting in an unscripted way and really trying to fight you and that is not going to allow people to do many of the things that sound good or look good in demonstrations or unrealistic training. Realistic training shows you what things you can really do and your opponent can really do and it lets you practice doing them and so you get better doing them.

[BPWT..]

Here's the deal you may not like what you see but you can see them really doing it unscripted with an opponent really fighting back.

It's good that it's unscripted, but the fact that they constantly reset after making contact means the opponent is not really fighting back, just avoiding up to a given point.

Is this training perhaps just an exercise for beginners to learn timing?

Other than timing, I'm not sure what else this training gives.

Someone with a knife will try to stab you back, and continuous uninterrupted strikes will be used. So again, the realism here is very limited, IMO.

[KPM]

Personally, I would like to get some input from the rest of you as to what really is the best way to train
blade defense, since conventional sparring methods like we do for empty hand and impact weapons don't do justice to the threat of a blade attack.



Hey Steve!

IMHO, I think the guy in the first series of videos is on the right track. And this is the kind of thing Marc Denny was doing as well. The Dog Brothers have done plenty of sparring with knife trainers. Their conclusion? Both people are very likely to DIE! That may be "realistic", but certainly not "desireable"! So what do we do? Throw up our hands and just say "oh well!"? I guess that's what Twen would have us do!

Marc called his series of videos DLO or "Die Less Often"!!! There is a saying in FMA about two people fighting with knives....you only have a 1 in 3 chance of coming out alive. If you know more than your opponent, you might live. If he knows more than you. You die. If you are both equally skilled, you both die. The whole idea behind Marc's research and the resulting video was "how do we increase our odds of surviving?" You DON'T want to end up in a tit for tat exchange with knives as in Twen's video. So is sparring like that the answer? I don't think so!

So you start by looking at what seems to be the most common type of knife attack on the street. The conclusion from more than source is that it is the "sewing machine" attack launched by surprise at relatively close range before you are going to have a chance to get set or to draw any kind of weapon of your own. Does that sound like a sparring scenario to you?

So you work on how to effectively stop someone coming in on you that way. You know you have to stop the knife-wielding arm or he is just going to continue to "pump away." You know you don't want to stand right in front of him where he is targeting his stabs. You know that the best way to keep him from continuing to come towards you is to either stop his momentum and try to get him off balance, or to get out of his way and out of reach completely. So you have a partner come at you and you work on those strategies and see what works. You have your partner ramp up his speed and intensity gradually until he is essentially running at you and pumping his stabs a fast as he can. You see that in the first video. This is how you make it as realistic as possible while still actually learning something other than how to trade hits! Is a real attacker going to just let you "do your thing"? Of course not! But if you have not drilled "your thing" over and over under increasing pressure, do you think it will have any hope of working in a real situation? This whole idea that the only "realistic" training is competitive sparring is a load of crap.

[tc101]

Yes yes yes it was a sparring clip since sparring is functional and realistic training. Sparring is training. Let me repeat it sparring is training. Sparring is the way let me repeat it sparring is THE way you train realistically and functionally.

There it is. There is the mantra again. Just ignore what anyone else has pointed out and repeat the mantra.


I am defining what I mean by realistic training. People call anything and everything realistic or functional but what do they mean.



Realistic and functional training involves having a partner who acts in an unscripted way and really fights you back.

Standing toe to toe and going tic for tat with knives is not realistic! At least not if you want to stay alive! Did you miss my point about them BOTH being dead within about a minute of their sparring match?


No in a real knife fight both would not be dead. The guy who got stabbed first would be dead. If you plunge your knife into your opponents face or neck that will pretty much settle things. This is training do you understand? Floro trained in Illustrimo kali and as a western fencer. He applied his fencer training to his kali.



If you see training that does not involve a partner who acts in an unscripted way and really fights back it is not realistic and functional training.

There are various levels of training that are both "realistic" and "functional." This has been pointed out over and over. But you are so focused on competitive sparring that you refuse to see it.


Please tell me what defines realistic and functional to you. For me it means you are really doing it against a partner who is acting in an unscripted way and really fighting you back.



When people do not understand what realistic and functional training really is I think that means they have never really done any.

I don't think you understand that there is valuable training other than competitive sparring. That must be because you have never really done any.)

All fighters use both realistic and unrealistic training. The unrealistic training is for tool development and sharpening. The realistic training is to develop and sharpen your ability to use those tools in fighting. For example you can practice your strikes against bags, with pads or mitts, and so forth. This will sharpen your striking. The realistic training is to practice trying to use these tools against someone fighting you. Fighters and trainers call it sparring.

Twen Cherba

[KPM]

No in a real knife fight both would not be dead. The guy who got stabbed first would be dead. If you plunge your knife into your opponents face or neck that will pretty much settle things.
Twen Cherba

Wrong again! Man, your credibility is going downhill fast! Stabs do not stop a fight or even slow it down. Even if you hit a major artery it typically takes nearly a minute for someone to bleed out enough to lose consciousness. That is plenty of time to do a lot of lethal damage before they go down! This is why the common approach from guys like Mike Janich has been on "biomechanical cutting." This is making major cuts to muscles or tendons to disable the hand holding the knife because that is the only way to stop an attacker in his tracks. A stab certainly won't do it, even one delivered to the carotid artery! Stabbing someone in the face won't do anything except **** them off! You really need to take a step back and realize you don't know what you're talking about!

[Vajramusti]

Wrong again! Man, your credibility is going downhill fast! Stabs do not stop a fight or even slow it down. Even if you hit a major artery it typically takes nearly a minute for someone to bleed out enough to lose consciousness. That is plenty of time to do a lot of lethal damage before they go down! This is why the common approach from guys like Mike Janich has been on "biomechanical cutting." This is making major cuts to muscles or tendons to disable the hand holding the knife because that is the only way to stop an attacker in his tracks. A stab certainly won't do it, even one delivered to the carotid artery! Stabbing someone in the face won't do anything except **** them off! You really need to take a step back and realize you don't know what you're talking about!
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Give up tc101
KPM is an Army doctor with experience in dealing with wounded folks.

[mawali]

At a basic level, functional training is a fundamental skill that forms the foundation of all or most skills. Basic movement, dodging/weaving stepping, etc that would be part and parcel of all arts.
They seem simple enough by themselves but if you cannot move out of the way for a punch or kick, then all offence and defense falters. If you are 300lbs that might not be so bad since just falling on someone will be life threatening!

[KPM]

Like the Dog Brothers, I don't think Tony Blauer has ever been accused of "unrealistic training." Here is one of his guys showing what we have been talking about. Surprise attack, move to the side, gain control of the attacker's arm, and get him off-balance, and then RUN!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w7ux20QDeAE


Does this look like a sparring scenario to anyone? And yet this was a training session. A realistic training session. A functional training session. Competitive sparring is not the only game in town!!!!!

[tc101]

Like the Dog Brothers, I don't think Tony Blauer has ever been accused of "unrealistic training." Here is one of his guys showing what we have been talking about. Surprise attack, move to the side, gain control of the attacker's arm, and get him off-balance, and then RUN!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w7ux20QDeAE


Does this look like a sparring scenario to anyone? And yet this was a training session. A realistic training session. A functional training session. Competitive sparring is not the only game in town!!!!!

Ok let me try to be a bit more clear. The sparring clip I put up was an example let me repeat example of the principle of realistic or functional training. I am not saying this is how you should or should not fight with a knife. I am only saying this is how you need to train to develop realistic skills. That you need to face someone who is acting unscripted and is really fighting you back to learn and get better at using your tools against someone who acts unpredictably and fights you back. That way you will see what really works for you and what really doesn't.

We keep comparing apples with oranges. Your clip is not about knife fighting but defending yourself unarmed against a knife. It is also a demo not training for one thing. So again you do not offer realistic training. With that said I think his approach of using a 2 on 1 or Russian tie against the weapon arm is pretty standard stuff. If you want to see how to functionally train the 2 on 1 you can look at clips of wrestlers doing that.

Let me leave you with one thing to think about. Yes this approach works when your opponent gives you his arm but what when he doesn't? What if your guy was facing a trained knife guy that had developed the ability to keep his distance, lunge in and out with extremely fast and powerful stabs and so forth? What about when what he is doing prevents you from getting a 2 on 1?

[tc101]

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Give up tc101
KPM is an Army doctor with experience in dealing with wounded folks.

Yes and I am ex military with combat and present LEO who has experienced these things in the field myself.

[tc101]

Wrong again! Man, your credibility is going downhill fast! Stabs do not stop a fight or even slow it down. Even if you hit a major artery it typically takes nearly a minute for someone to bleed out enough to lose consciousness. That is plenty of time to do a lot of lethal damage before they go down! This is why the common approach from guys like Mike Janich has been on "biomechanical cutting." This is making major cuts to muscles or tendons to disable the hand holding the knife because that is the only way to stop an attacker in his tracks. A stab certainly won't do it, even one delivered to the carotid artery! Stabbing someone in the face won't do anything except **** them off! You really need to take a step back and realize you don't know what you're talking about!

I would not want to be stabbed or slashed. I think both can let me repeat can be deadly or not. My nuisance was referring to light cuts or what you see as defensive wounds on people who are attacked with knives. This happens all the time. I've seen victims with dozens of defensive cuts on their arms and hands yet they were considered non life threatening. I have doubts about trying to hit tendons or muscles in the hand holding the knife. I think that requires to much accuracy and would be very low percentage.

I've only seen a few knife homicides and they all involved stabbings. I've also seen some stabbings that did not result in death.

[LFJ]

Speaking of knife fighting. Did anyone happen to see what happened recently in Kunming at the railway station? Scary sh!t. :eek:

[KPM]

We keep comparing apples with oranges. Your clip is not about knife fighting but defending yourself unarmed against a knife. It is also a demo not training for one thing. So again you do not offer realistic training.

Yeah, whatever dude! :rolleyes:


Let me leave you with one thing to think about. Yes this approach works when your opponent gives you his arm but what when he doesn't? What if your guy was facing a trained knife guy that had developed the ability to keep his distance, lunge in and out with extremely fast and powerful stabs and so forth? What about when what he is doing prevents you from getting a 2 on 1?

We could play the "what if" game all day long. What does that prove? What if he had a gun instead of a knife? What if his knife was tipped with a neurotoxin? What if he was a 300 lb Samoan on acid? :rolleyes:

Yes and I am ex military with combat and present LEO who has experienced these things in the field myself.

And yet you didn't pick up on the fact that both fighters got in clean stabs to the neck within one minute of your sparring clip. Or the fact that the stab to the neck wouldn't be immediately incapacitating or stop the opponent from delivering his own stab to the neck about 10 seconds later? I think you've got your mind so set on this competitive sparring mentality that you don't see things that are right in front of you and fairly obvious to others.

[KPM]

Speaking of knife fighting. Did anyone happen to see what happened recently in Kunming at the railway station? Scary sh!t. :eek:

Yes! You're right! Scary stuff! Does China need "knife control" laws? Just goes to show you that if someone is intent on mayhem, it doesn't matter whether there are strict laws that limit their access to guns or not.

[LFJ]

Yes! You're right! Scary stuff! Does China need "knife control" laws? Just goes to show you that if someone is intent on mayhem, it doesn't matter whether there are strict laws that limit their access to guns or not.

I'm just glad there's no private gun ownership here at all. Way too many psychopaths in this country!

The same day as the Sandy Hook tragedy in the States there was an attack at an elementary school in Henan province with about the same number of young victims, but because the attacker only had a knife, while some of them were seriously injured, none of them died. It takes a special kind of crazy to stick cold steel into a child.

Mass knifing incidents are too common over here. Not too long ago a guy went through slicing people trapped on a city bus. Then he was picked up by the police later without incident when they found him sitting on the sidewalk, casually eating some watermelon, enjoying the afternoon.

So I'm glad these psychopaths can't get their hands on firepower. The death toll at the train station, between several attackers, would have been far greater. That's for sure.

[KPM]

So I'm glad these psychopaths can't get their hands on firepower. The death toll at the train station, between several attackers, would have been far greater. That's for sure.

Good point!