View Full Version : Wck DNA part 2
Hendrik
03-09-2014, 07:26 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zVDAQusy944&feature=youtube_gdata
Yeah, so just more empty assertions. Waiting for him to get to the proof of the origins as you guys see it...
Every action in Wing Chun can be found in Northern Kung Fu as well. We could look at almost any style and see the same actions and then say hey that's where this must have come from! If that's all we're doing, I could make a very convincing case that daan-chi-sau came from Songshan Shaolin some 500 years ago because the same sequence of actions can be found in some of its forms... but that doesn't make it so.
And all the internal nonsense is useless for combat proficiency unless proven otherwise. Personally, granting your take on history, I'm glad whoever it was came along and got rid of all the superstitious garbage to focus on practical fighting theory and practice. You call it "watering down". I call it simplification and am thankful for it.
Minghequan
03-10-2014, 12:23 AM
Sergio seems like a good orator. He seems to have some skill as well of that no doubt.
But what I want to see is the actual proof that this is historically fact and not some guys on Youtube (That Pillar of Great Truth) just saying so!
Until that happens all this will be is an opinion.
Hendrik is pushing this because Sergio is now a mouthpiece for his opinions ... and still we are waiting for the actual, 100% historically correct proof!
One more thing, If Wing Chun is indeed related or arising from White Crane then why not just do White Crane and Bam! You have your original "Wing Chun!"
One more thing, If Wing Chun is indeed related or arising from White Crane then why not just do White Crane and Bam! You have your original "Wing Chun!"
Right. If you don't have all of White Crane or Emei whatever, then a lot is missing in your new style! You have to go back and learn the full mother systems. But then, where did these systems come from? Uh oh... We'd better spend all our time looking for historical documentation, reading, and talking about origins. No time for training!
I'm happy with a simple modern system, regardless of whatever someone thinks is "missing", because simple works.
Minghequan
03-10-2014, 02:10 AM
Right. If you don't have all of White Crane or Emei whatever, then a lot is missing in your new style! You have to go back and learn the full mother systems. But then, where did these systems come from? Uh oh... We'd better spend all our time looking for historical documentation, reading, and talking about origins. No time for training!
I'm happy with a simple modern system, regardless of whatever someone thinks is "missing", because simple works.
Yeah so what Hendrik and now Sergio are basically saying to the world is that their Wing Chun is an incomplete system! A mix-mash of White Crane, Emei and Snake all rolled into one with Qigong added.
White Crane is a complete art in itself. Their is an abundance off traceable historical & technical information to outline not only its history but also practice, theories and concepts. So Hendrik / Sergio, if what your saying is true ... why not just do White Crane Gongfu ... the mother art? Problem solved!
All arts, I don't care how historically correct or proven (yes even White Crane) have evolved ... such is the nature of things, such is the nature of the true Martial Arts!
tc101
03-10-2014, 04:10 AM
And all the internal nonsense is useless for combat proficiency unless proven otherwise. Personally, granting your take on history, I'm glad whoever it was came along and got rid of all the superstitious garbage to focus on practical fighting theory and practice. You call it "watering down". I call it simplification and am thankful for it.
One of the best observations I've read here.
Hendrik
03-10-2014, 09:03 AM
Opinion:
White Crane is a complete art in itself. Their is an abundance off traceable historical & technical information to outline not only its history but also practice, theories and concepts. So Hendrik / Sergio, if what your saying is true ... why not just do White Crane Gongfu ... the mother art? Problem solved!
Facts:
Wck is a capturing center , inner gate play art or fast response and firing in the inner gate .
A variation of white crane center line principle.
The snake from emei technoligy is to develop the ability to support the inner gate play. Thus Wck inch or fast power is not the same with white crane. It is an emei technology based development .
Yeah so what Hendrik and now Sergio are basically saying to the world is that their Wing Chun is an incomplete system! A mix-mash of White Crane, Emei and Snake all rolled into one with Qigong added.
Emei is snake. And they aren't saying that Wing Chun is incomplete. And "mix-mash" is not accurate. Nothing comes from a vacuum. Wing Chun has the legend of Ng Mui creating the system after watching a fight between a Snake and a Crane. This is very likely a metaphor for someone combining knowledge from these two systems. So we go back and look at these systems to see what this knowledge might have been and if it adds up. And we find elements in Wing Chun that are very "Craney" and bear a strong resemblance to White Crane as well as elements that are very "Snakey" and bear a strong resemblance to Emei. Some very ingenious and clever person at some point combined these elements into a cohesive whole that became Wing Chun and found that they worked very well together. That's not a "mix-mash." Its more of a "functional integration." The sum of the parts is often different and greater than the parts alone.
White Crane is a complete art in itself. Their is an abundance off traceable historical & technical information to outline not only its history but also practice, theories and concepts. So Hendrik / Sergio, if what your saying is true ... why not just do White Crane Gongfu ... the mother art? Problem solved!
Why would they do that? They are not trying to recreate the ancestral arts. They are trying to maximize their Wing Chun. There is a possibility that the original creators of Wing Chun included more elements of White Crane or Emei that have since sort of "faded away." Whether that was a bad thing or a natural evolution remains to be seen.
All arts, I don't care how historically correct or proven (yes even White Crane) have evolved ... such is the nature of things, such is the nature of the true Martial Arts!
But if someone told you that they had evidence of an older version of White Crane that had some different elements that aren't seen today, wouldn't you be curious to see what they are?
sihing
03-10-2014, 10:39 AM
Watched the video, twice Sergio mentions that Wing Chun is more than just about fighting, and with this discovery some if they choose to can add this to their training and it can help them in other ways besides fighting, so don't understand the comments about "internal nonsense" being useless for fighting when he says it twice in the video himself (thought he doesn't use the word nonsense), lol..
Any activity done with involvement can be made to by more helpful to you on a whole than just what it is there for in obvious ways, look deeper and one can find it. None of us here are pro/amateur fighters, so if that is true, then we must be doing this for other reasons besides fighting ability (why be so interested and train so much if your not fighting with it??), mostly cause we like the activity, it's of interest to us, fighting is the last reason why I train/teach VT...
J
Watched the video, twice Sergio mentions that Wing Chun is more than just about fighting, and with this discovery some if they choose to can add this to their training and it can help them in other ways besides fighting, so don't understand the comments about "internal nonsense" being useless for fighting when he says it twice in the video himself (thought he doesn't use the word nonsense), lol..
Internal nonsense, "qi" and whatnot, is still nonsense, the mere existence of which has not even met its burden of proof- much less what it can be used for. Besides, these guys (Hendrik here) have been saying Wing Chun is incomplete and inferior without the qi nonsense. That's an assertion that needs to be demonstrated and is not freed from being commented upon.
None of us here are pro/amateur fighters, so if that is true, then we must be doing this for other reasons besides fighting ability (why be so interested and train so much if your not fighting with it??)
Sport fighting is not the only form of fighting that happens, you know?
sihing
03-10-2014, 11:45 AM
Internal nonsense, "qi" and whatnot, is still nonsense, the mere existence of which has not even met its burden of proof- much less what it can be used for. Besides, these guys (Hendrik here) have been saying Wing Chun is incomplete and inferior without the qi nonsense. That's an assertion that needs to be demonstrated and is not freed from being commented upon.
Sport fighting is not the only form of fighting that happens, you know?
I think Hendrik explain in basic terms what Chi/Qi means, biochemical bioelectrical, are you denying that this exists in each of us? What you need to do is just open your mind, don't believe what anyone is saying, but don't disbelieve it due to a limited belief system or whatever it is that makes one blind to a possibility. I practice Yoga, there is a lot of talk and explanation of prana and things of this nature, but it is not in some esoteric way, it's very simple and easy to understand, do I believe in it? It's not a matter of belief, I just do the practice and see the results, the results are there in my life, so that is where I come from.
If something was watered down, and left out over a period of time, then in a way it is incomplete as compared to what it once was. I believe in the first video by Sergio it is mentioned how effective Ip Man VT is regards and comparison to what is available in mainland China, so they have admitted that, but even with that said, one can still say the WC/VT as it is normally seen today is incomplete, it's all a matter of perpective. The thing is where is the proof? They say they have it, and have shared some of it here, the only thing that is there to prove it is written records, oral stories, and comparing of lineages, of course ppl will see and interpret what they want to see, that is the problem when your living behind a bunch of filters in this life, you don't like Hendriks you create a filter over your eyes as to everything he says and does.
Yes, I work in the security field, know all about the possibility of violent situations in daily life, I deal with it DAILY:)
J
Firehawk4
03-10-2014, 12:44 PM
if Wing Chun does come from fujian White Crane which i believe it is one of the arts Wing Chun comes from what about Fujian Wing or Weng Chun that is mentioned in the Complete Wing Chun Book By Robert Chu and Rene Ritchie this version of Wing or Weng Chun is supposed to come from Fujian province but is not talked about much i know it has some relation to Chi Sim Weng Chun but the Fujian Wing or Weng Chun is from Fujian where Fujian White Crane comes from Robert and Rene s book mentions the forms and the history of the Fujian Wing or Weng Chun anybody know about this system and if it comes from or related to Wing Chun ?
Hendrik
03-10-2014, 01:04 PM
What we know is the emei snake technology contribute to the inch power development of Wck.
That is because the emei technology makes aware of the details of joints handling, activation, and force flow handling. It is a unnique technology exclusive in the china ancient art technology . Qi is involve in this emei technology for fine tuning handling the biomechanical via the bio electrical and bio chemical when lead by intention. There is no mysterious at all.
Also, the snake section is place before the Sam bai fut section in the SNT to make sure the require biomechanical development is in place. It can be looked at as a "warm up " preparation step in additional to the martial applications the section.
The missing of this snake section cause the art to divert evol into a harder art. Which can be seen today in some Wck lineages importing spm som Bo gin technology to patch up the gap of power needed.
Hendrik
03-10-2014, 01:18 PM
if Wing Chun does come from fujian White Crane which i believe it is one of the arts Wing Chun comes from what about Fujian Wing or Weng Chun that is mentioned in the Complete Wing Chun Book By Robert Chu and Rene Ritchie this version of Wing or Weng Chun is supposed to come from Fujian province but is not talked about much i know it has some relation to Chi Sim Weng Chun but the Fujian Wing or Weng Chun is from Fujian where Fujian White Crane comes from Robert and Rene s book mentions the forms and the history of the Fujian Wing or Weng Chun anybody know about this system and if it comes from or related to Wing Chun ?
Per evidence we know today
A, the shao Lin weng chun of the red boat is based on white crane of fujian
B, wing chun of the red boat is based on emei and white crane of fujian.
Both exist in the red boat in the uprising era . They are sister art belongs to the triad or hung mun or tien tee hui anti Qing group of the red boat. But they are different art.
The facts on eternal spring hall and term chi sim and the salutation signatures are explain in this YouTube
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wz7xa-A1ak0&feature=youtube_gdat
GlennR
03-10-2014, 02:12 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zVDAQusy944&feature=youtube_gdata
Blah blah blah blah blah..............
Sitting on a lounge, repeating your mantra Hendrik, does not prove anything...... you (and Sergio) might be right but saying it so doesnt make it so.... simple.
Theres two of your claims you need to prove here;
1. Your historical claims
2. That you believe following your path of thinking will make WC "complete again"
Let put the history aside for a minute and talk about the "complete" aspect"
Ill ask one simple question.
Following your (and now Sergios) way of thinking, will that make me a better WC fighter??
?
My only caveat here would be can you show me someone that has taken up your approach and become just that
Minghequan
03-10-2014, 02:32 PM
Keith P. Myers,
Interesting. Of all the people who have posted here you single out me. I'm flattered .... am I sensing something here Hmmm :rolleyes:
Keith P. Myers,
Interesting. Of all the people who have posted here you single out me. I'm flattered .... am I sensing something here Hmmm :rolleyes:
No nothing personal Ron. Wasn't meaning to single you out. That's just what gelled in my head reading through the thread when I happened to stop on your post. Kind of a "stream of consciousness" thing. :)
Minghequan
03-10-2014, 10:38 PM
Bai Jie, student of Bai He Quan founder, Fang Qi Niang. One of the 28 heroes, Bai Jie trained at the Jiao Lian temple. This temple was renamed Xiao Lian Si (Small Training Temple) by Madam Fang. Bai Jie was famous for two reasons, for teaching Shi Lang the commander of the Chinese fleet that invaded Taiwan in 1683 upon the order of Emperor Kang Xi and for developing the Cun Jin Jie Li (Inch Power Connecting Strength) method of White Crane. It is also legend that the original method of White Crane developed by Fang Qi Niang was a sanshi method that contained no forms. The forms were developed by her husband Zhang Ci and her students later on.
If we look at the various ancestral books of White Crane, Wubeizhi, Tongrenzhi etc. One can readily see that Wing Chun and White Crane are not seperate arts but two different interpretations of the same art. Over time, because of segregation, they have evolved, but are not seperate from one another. The Wing Chun tradition is the sanshi method of Madam Fang's original art. White Crane is Zheng Ci's interpretation using the Huzunquan forms as a medium to express the sanshi. It is after this point that the various lineages and interpretations arise.
Thank you. Great Post!
KPM, No problems. All cool;)
Firehawk4
03-10-2014, 10:44 PM
There is in this Wing Chun book by Liang Guang Man or Leung Gan-Moon, in his San Sik portion of the book and this also might be in the forms there is something called Shi Xin or Snake Like form this looks like the snake like techniques that you are talking about i seen them in the Yuen Kay San Book and complete Wing Chun book maybe also in the Leung Ting book on Wing Chun history there is also another san sik in the Liang Guang Man book called Mei Nu Chuang Suo or Fair Lady s Working at the Shuttle wich also looks snake like . The Liang Gauang Man style comes from Yuen Chai Wan who taught Yui Cho this is supposed to be snake Wing Chun or part of it is . Yuen Chai Wan and Yuen Kay San Where brothers so both are Snake Wing Chun .
GlennR
03-10-2014, 11:28 PM
Hendrik's DNA theory is relevant to Cho family only, not all branches of WC. All branches have evolved according to how the master that passed it on interpreted it. If you want Wing Chun DNA look to descendants of Leung Jan. He is after all the one responsible for creating the forms and passed on the sanshi, no one else can lay claim to that. Hendrick's lineage does not include Leung Jan, so his DNA of authentic Wing Chun is IMO not so authentic.
And i think that statement says it all. Hendrik believes Cho family IS the authentic WC, he sees LJ and further on as watered down versions.
Sergio confirms these thoughts in his video................. and then says you can read all about it in his book.... what a surprise!!!
I think Hendrik explain in basic terms what Chi/Qi means, biochemical bioelectrical, are you denying that this exists in each of us?
I understand Qi as it is explained all across China in TCMA, Qigong, and TCM, and that is not it.
What you need to do is just open your mind, don't believe what anyone is saying, but don't disbelieve it due to a limited belief system or whatever it is that makes one blind to a possibility.
Okay look, I've spent years training around the Shaolin area, Henan province, where much of the qigong in China originated. I've done the training and experienced the health benefits of the exercises, but I don't attribute that to some ill-defined, unproven energy source in the body over physical movement, stretching and breathing.
What's more, these guys train to break bricks with their hands, metal bars on their heads, spears on their throats, sticks over their bodies, etc.. They aren't afraid of taking blows. Yet, when they enter sanda competitions they still get knocked out and their heads don't break open like bricks. So where does it all go? You tell me.
It's all bullsh!t and a colossal waste of time that could be spent training practical fighting skills.
If something was watered down, and left out over a period of time, then in a way it is incomplete as compared to what it once was....
...one can still say the WC/VT as it is normally seen today is incomplete, it's all a matter of perpective.
Saying it is watered down or something was left out suggests that it was a mistake or loss that occurred through time. It's not a matter of perspective if the superstitious nonsense was purposefully taken out by a person with a realistic training mind. It's a deliberate simplification.
Minghequan
03-11-2014, 12:23 AM
Either submit it to carbon dating and have it analyzed by several lineage masters so that they can form an opinion as to it's content, or give up this silly nonsense of trying to persuade everyone of that you and only you possess the true essence of an art that spans generations and hundreds of lineages.
Thank you! That sums it up completely! Of course, I wouldn't hold my breath awaiting on Hendrik's "Proof" :rolleyes:
Hendrik,
Where does Hung Gar and Choy Lay Fut fit into all this? Cho family is deeply infused with these arts. I have seen several versions of their SNT, you know the one form that was never supposed to be modified, yet many in Cho family did anyways. So if Cho family SNT is supposed to be so sacred and complete why the change and why supplement the art with Choy Lay Fut and Hung Gar? Seems to me a chimera of DNA, also these arts have no real connection with Ermei shan but do have a history with White Crane. The whole Ermei snake thing reeks of self propagation. Though I am open to the possibility of an influence of the 12 Posts, I see no real connection, it's tenuous at best, and no verifiable documentation has been presented. I could just as easily argue a case that Wing Chun stems from Tibetan White Crane and it could not be disproven so easily. Thing is I have no verifiable documentation that can be presented and carbon dated, neither do you.
Anyone of us can provide documents revealing a tidbit of supposed lost method of WC. We could join in a common interest and have it published, that still wouldn't make it real. Such things can be easily faked. Either submit it to carbon dating and have it analyzed by several lineage masters so that they can form an opinion as to it's content, or give up this silly nonsense of trying to persuade everyone of that you and only you possess the true essence of an art that spans generations and hundreds of lineages.
Yup. As I mentioned earlier, many Southern arts are verifiably related to the Northern arts. All the actions can be found in other TCMA systems. But just spotting a similar action and assuming a direct connection isn't considered real research or proof of any origin. It's just wishful thinking.
GlennR
03-11-2014, 03:36 AM
Anyone of us can provide documents revealing a tidbit of supposed lost method of WC. We could join in a common interest and have it published, that still wouldn't make it real. Such things can be easily faked. Either submit it to carbon dating and have it analyzed by several lineage masters so that they can form an opinion as to it's content, or give up this silly nonsense of trying to persuade everyone of that you and only you possess the true essence of an art that spans generations and hundreds of lineages.
Questions he wont answer and things he wont be scrutinised over.......... he'll ignore you as he has hundreds of the same objections over the years
Bai Jie, student of Bai He Quan founder, Fang Qi Niang. One of the 28 heroes, Bai Jie trained at the Jiao Lian temple. This temple was renamed Xiao Lian Si (Small Training Temple) by Madam Fang. Bai Jie was famous for two reasons, for teaching Shi Lang the commander of the Chinese fleet that invaded Taiwan in 1683 upon the order of Emperor Kang Xi and for developing the Cun Jin Jie Li (Inch Power Connecting Strength) method of White Crane. It is also legend that the original method of White Crane developed by Fang Qi Niang was a sanshi method that contained no forms. The forms were developed by her husband Zhang Ci and her students later on.
If we look at the various ancestral books of White Crane, Wubeizhi, Tongrenzhi etc. One can readily see that Wing Chun and White Crane are not seperate arts but two different interpretations of the same art. Over time, because of segregation, they have evolved, but are not seperate from one another. The Wing Chun tradition is the sanshi method of Madam Fang's original art. White Crane is Zheng Ci's interpretation using the Huzunquan forms as a medium to express the sanshi. It is after this point that the various lineages and interpretations arise.
Interesting! What is the source for this? I tend to get confused with the difference between names in Cantonese and names in Mandarin. Is Madam Fang Qi Niang the same person as Fong Wing Chun in the White Crane legends?
Hendrik,
Where does Hung Gar and Choy Lay Fut fit into all this? Cho family is deeply infused with these arts. I have seen several versions of their SNT, you know the one form that was never supposed to be modified, yet many in Cho family did anyways. So if Cho family SNT is supposed to be so sacred and complete why the change and why supplement the art with Choy Lay Fut and Hung Gar?.
This is a good question! I'm guessing here, but I think one could easily propose that the "mix-mash" only occured in later generations of the lineage when some of the "secret technology" was already being lost and they didn't realize what they had. So they started adding in the other stuff to fill in gaps for things that were already lost and to attract a wider student base. Kind of like a gym that adds crossfit to attract more patrons.
And i think that statement says it all. Hendrik believes Cho family IS the authentic WC, he sees LJ and further on as watered down versions.
No, to be a little more accurate I think Hendrik believes that Yik Kam WCK is closest to the "authentic" version. Yik Kam WCK is preserved within the Cho family art, but the Cho system has added a lot of other stuff.
GlennR
03-11-2014, 03:58 AM
No, to be a little more accurate I think Hendrik believes that Yik Kam WCK is closest to the "authentic" version. Yik Kam WCK is preserved within the Cho family art, but the Cho system has added a lot of other stuff.
Same thing to me Keith.... the authentic or closest to.
Just makes him the authority he so craves to be, in his opinion
Grumblegeezer
03-11-2014, 02:02 PM
Hi Keith,
This is part of the oral history as passed down in several traditions of Southern White Crane, most notably Yongchun Bai He Quan of the Pan family. Fang Qi Niang, Fong Chat Leung, Fang Yong Chun, Yim Wing Chun, Fong Wing Chun, Yan Yong Chun IMO are all the same individual.
If you mean that they all stem from the same character in the folklore of southern Chinese boxing, I would agree. But I seriously doubt that this character is anything more than just that: a piece of martial arts folklore. That is not to dismiss the value of such stories which have evolved into origin myths of each style, and at least in the case of Wing Chun, encapsulate important ideas about the nature of the system. I would go so far as to say that properly understood, the story of Ng Mui and Yim Wing Chun is as valuable as the many kuen kuit in understanding the gist of the art.
Hendrik
03-11-2014, 05:15 PM
Correct it is nothing that can without a shred of doubt be definitively proven, but is none the less important to the historical significance of the systems. Conjecture and speculation is what drives historical research, unfortunately some, like Hendrik, use this as a means to validate their assumptions. If everyone would simply state that it is Their assertion of probability as compared to outright Truth there would be no conflict.
It is not an assumption when three older different Wck lineages show the same signature of the DNA in thier SNT.
Minghequan
03-11-2014, 08:25 PM
Based on your argument Hendrik, what of the other lines of Wing Chun that also show the same signature of the DNA in their SNT??? Are they to be dismissed? What if more than just three of these lines of Wing Chun show the same "DNA" in their art? Are they to be held up as true or are they to be dismissed?
Minghequan
03-11-2014, 08:28 PM
This is a video of Yongchun White Crane's Ba Shou San Zhan Quan (8 Hands 3 Conflicts Fist) it is from my understanding a rare higher form in the White Crane system. Notice at around the 10 second mark how the single hand movements are very, very similar to the Da Lian Tou pattern of the Hua Quan section of Xiao Lian Tou. It is also very similar to Tensho from Goju Ryu. All 3 styles, Yong Chun Bai He, Yong Chun and Goju Ryu profess the same historical origins, yet each has a different flavor and has over the years evolved according to the understanding and emphasis of their lineage masters. Yet with this form you can clearly see a common root. No foreign mystery DNA from some long lost Sichuan art. Simple evolution based upon preference, understanding of theory & movement, cultural emphasis and practicality.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eXRdF49n4sY
DLCox,
Hey now you have my interest! What can you tell me of this particular form??? My email is: zhenlan@whitecranegongfu.info
Love to hear from you again (also have an idea for a Discussion Group!)
Hendrik
03-11-2014, 10:08 PM
Everyone is free to have their opinions . However, facts is facts
Opinion :
Dlcox wrote:
We don't see the emergence of forms in Wing Chun until the time of Dr. Liang Zan.
For me it is unlikely that Wing Chun evolved through the infusion of Ermei Shier Zhuang. I believe that this is nothing more than a marketing ploy by that Ermei 12 Post master,
[/url]
Facts:
1. Yik kam pre 1850 and Se Hok post 1855 are different lineage of wing chun exist before Liang Zan era. WWB lineage is not an exclusive represent of Wck.
2. Emei shire zhuang DNA exist in yik kam, Se Hok, and YkS SNT set . With yik kam 1850 and Se Hok 1894 SNT instruction clearly written on the snake section.
Minghequan
03-11-2014, 11:13 PM
Facts:
1. Yik kam pre 1850 and Se Hok post 1855 are different lineage of wing chun exist before Liang Zan era. WWB lineage is not an exclusive represent of Wck.
2. Emei shire zhuang DNA exist in yik kam, Se Hok, and YkS SNT set . With yik kam 1850 and Se Hok 1894 SNT instruction clearly written on the snake section.
hHndrik, Facts are something that can be proven irrefutably. That means that there exists factual, immediately verifiable proof most usually by form of documentation that has been independently verified as being true. So my question to you is a simple one that you should be able to immediately answer here ..... Where is your irrefutable, verified and totally factual proof of what you say? Who verified these "Facts" you state here???
Remember Hendrik you stated here in black and white that these are "FACTS" so lets see your verified proof of same! Surely Hendrik this is not too much to ask? After all you yourself have stated they are FACTS!
Before you answer, I will go on the record here by stating that you will skirt around this question, say crap like it's "written within the forms" or the "stars" ... You will do everything except provide verifiable and honest facts.
You will do this because all of this is simply your own "His-Story" and not good, hard, solid and honest Facts!
Paddington
03-12-2014, 03:09 AM
Personally I found merit in some of the movements and exercises Hendrik has drawn my attention to. However, like many in this thread I feel that this so called document needs to be independently dated and verified. I do not view Sergio's acceptance of Hendrik's thesis as some type of extra proof that Hendrik is right. In fact I view Sergio with a lot of suspicion and his adoption of Hendrik's ideas inclines me to be more critical of them and to ask again that the said document, be independently dated and verified. Until that happens discussions on 'origins' and 'history' will have to be suspended. However, there is nothing to stop discussions on content and the actual practices Hendrik shows. As I said I find merit in them and they have improved my wing chun and I thank Hendrik for that.
I do not dispute the fact that there are lineages of WC that pre-date Leung Jan. Problem is, any line of WC that claims to have the 3 standard forms (like Snake Crane) and claim no connection to Leung Jan are lying.
I've been to the Snake Crane WCK facebook page and watched their videos. What really struck me was that their dummy form is almost EXACTLY the Yip Man form. Seems a bit suspicious to me, given the Yip Man is known to have altered and "tinkered" with his dummy form to a good extent.
GlennR
03-12-2014, 03:34 AM
I do not dispute the fact that there are lineages of WC that pre-date Leung Jan. Problem is, any line of WC that claims to have the 3 standard forms (like Snake Crane) and claim no connection to Leung Jan are lying.
I've been to the Snake Crane WCK facebook page and watched their videos. What really struck me was that their dummy form is almost EXACTLY the Yip Man form. Seems a bit suspicious to me, given the Yip Man is known to have altered and "tinkered" with his dummy form to a good extent.
Yeh, funny that hey.
Im sure there us a convenient answer to this......... Ask Sergio or hendrik.
Paddington
03-12-2014, 03:35 AM
I do not dispute the fact that there are lineages of WC that pre-date Leung Jan. Problem is, any line of WC that claims to have the 3 standard forms (like Snake Crane) and claim no connection to Leung Jan are lying.
I've been to the Snake Crane WCK facebook page and watched their videos. What really struck me was that their dummy form is almost EXACTLY the Yip Man form. Seems a bit suspicious to me, given the Yip Man is known to have altered and "tinkered" with his dummy form to a good extent.
Hi Keith. Could I request a link to their page or specifically that video? I would very much like to watch it.
Hi Keith. Could I request a link to their page or specifically that video? I would very much like to watch it.
https://www.facebook.com/#!/media/set/?set=vb.165747543494748&type=2
Paddington
03-12-2014, 10:26 AM
https://www.facebook.com/#!/media/set/?set=vb.165747543494748&type=2
Thanks mate.
Hendrik
03-12-2014, 11:22 AM
[QUOTE=dlcox;1263306]I do not dispute the fact that there are lineages of WC that pre-date Leung Jan. Problem is, any line of WC that claims to have the 3 standard forms (like Snake Crane) and claim no connection to Leung Jan are lying.
Wong Wah Bo and Leung Jan are the individuals that codified the art and created the 3 forms,
this is accepted in almost all major lines. -------
Please Show evidence and DNA .
I do accept the fact that some lines passed on a San Shi method, Leung Jan also attests to this, however, is this what constitutes WC as a whole?
The lines that only have SNT have so much extra material added to them it makes it hard to discern what is WC and what has been added. The movement has been way too modified from the accepted model and theory of what constitutes WC proper. ------
Facts are we today can know exactly the elements of tcma in 1850 across china , north or south.
And what Leung jan passing fit only to partial of that.
San shi is an in complete form of very limited art with reference to the tcma 1850 .
It is an objective is due which could be reference to tcma 1850 similar to the later generation can refrence to 1970, 1980, .. And today's mma reference to see what is happening at every decade.
Hendrik
03-12-2014, 11:32 AM
Personally I found merit in some of the movements and exercises Hendrik has drawn my attention to. However, like many in this thread I feel that this so called document needs to be independently dated and verified. I do not view Sergio's acceptance of Hendrik's thesis as some type of extra proof that Hendrik is right. In fact I view Sergio with a lot of suspicion and his adoption of Hendrik's ideas inclines me to be more critical of them and to ask again that the said document, be independently dated and verified. Until that happens discussions on 'origins' and 'history' will have to be suspended. However, there is nothing to stop discussions on content and the actual practices Hendrik shows. As I said I find merit in them and they have improved my wing chun and I thank Hendrik for that.
Will I say I know it all? No.
Will I say I am all corect ? No.
However, it is a big step and big different
between
evidence presented waiting to be verify more .
A working technology which will make the SNT set function better and improve
And
Sitting down speculating with zero evidence and dis function SNT with a totally jamming yjkym.
With all kind of stories and theory which doesn't even fit into Chinese martial art history and DNA.
History can be stories. Who knows
However, DNA and the common denominator on how to make things work , the signature of the tcma of the era never lies. That is the bottom line.
Carbon test only shows the date of that paper of the documents.
What if the person who wrote that is wrong?
However,
The convergence of the DNA of the art, the signature of the era, working instruction to activate the SNT set across different lineages cannot be an accident. In additional, when the documents also shows convergence. Then. It is cannot be an accident .
Just ask and examine how many has presented this far in the past 80 years?
Does one pick on the 20% empty or seeing the 80 % full?
I have never look at this as the end, instead I look at it as a beginning of everyone can do research and continous on to improve. Entering a new scientific based on evidence era.
JPinAZ
03-12-2014, 11:37 AM
However, it is a big step and big different
between
evidence presented waiting to be verify more .
A working technology which will make the SNT set function better and improve
And where's this evidence you speak of - where's the evidence of this set's improved & better results in application?
Can you point to one clip showing this?
Hendrik
03-12-2014, 12:05 PM
This is an ancient white crane of fujian documents. Many has seen it including Sifu Sergio.
Take a look is it something familiar here?
If one has lots of money or research fund, there are plenty of things can be send for carbon test .
So yes we do speak with facts
In the mean time, we are doing thing with our own very limited funding. Lucky we can get this far.
JPinAZ
03-12-2014, 12:07 PM
I asked for evidence of improved fighting skills, Henrik provides a picture of some old book... Someone isn't taking their meds again...
JPinAZ
03-12-2014, 12:14 PM
It is not an assumption when three older different Wck lineages show the same signature of the DNA in thier SNT.
LOL. This type of thinking is more than silly, it's just plain retarded! There is no such thing as an 'older lineage'. All wing chun lineages of today are all the same age since they all come from the same source. This is just a weak marketing ploy of someone desperately looking for attention and trying to make themself appear unique, special, and 'more-complete'/'better' that the 'newer lineages' they are putting down.
Not only has Hendrik failed to provide one shred of verifiable proof to his 'theories' (well, besides links to self made videos & self-written articles along with pointing to modern pictures & clips of unrelated arts), he has yet to provide ONE demonstration of ANY improved fighting results of his 'older' & 'more-complete' mish-mash nonsense either on video or in person or from one student he's trained. Not once! All this talk, and NO results beyond some possible health benifits from some other art's chi gung that you get without it being attached to wing chun.
Henrik's mish-mash theories reminds me of the old Wendy's commercial and make me ask "where's the beef??"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ug75diEyiA0
PalmStriker
03-12-2014, 12:19 PM
Looking good, Hendrix! Keep the translations coming, historical reference to the fighting arts is as old as the arts themselves, nobody expects you to hit them over the head with a scroll or book in order to prove that the text and physical practice can work hand in hand. I know you are working with a team/cross-checking on the transliteration work. Thanks for sharing stuff in advance of publication.
Hendrik
03-12-2014, 12:42 PM
Looking good, Hendrix! Keep the translations coming, historical reference to the fighting arts is as old as the arts themselves, nobody expects you to hit them over the head with a scroll or book in order to prove that the text and physical practice can work hand in hand. I know you are working with a team/cross-checking on the transliteration work. Thanks for sharing stuff in advance of publication.
I am no god. I dont know it all . But when there is trace in the radar screen , it will be reported.
As Sergio put it in his YouTube . We are not pushing any lineage but hoping all lineage to get the best.
Just hope a new era based on rational, scientific and democratic ,
With non lineage pushing is started .
Firehawk4
03-12-2014, 02:36 PM
Where does Fok Bo Chun fit into all this i thought he learned his 3 Wing Chun forms Siu Lien Tau , Chum Kiu, Biu Jee from Wong Wah Bo And then Fok Bo Chun taught them to Yuen Kay San and Yuen Chai Wan in Leung Tings book Roots and Branches of Wing Tsun he says that Fok Bo Chun learned from Law the founder of the Snake Crane Wing Chun this is in the Yuen Chai Wan section of Leung Tings book ? So how does Dai Fah Min Kam fit in this too ?
Minghequan
03-12-2014, 03:45 PM
Hendrik,
The book you posted is actually pages from one of the many Wu Bei Zhi out there. That particular image you posted is actually a one off image which first appeared on a Chinese Web Site.
Now you are saying that Sergio has this book shown??? Can you post other images of pages from that same book? I doubt it.
Where is your DNA proof that Sergio has this book in his possession??? Lets see it?
Minghequan
03-12-2014, 03:50 PM
Dlcox,
Sent you a PM. Hope you will offer a reply!
Josexx
03-12-2014, 03:56 PM
I am no god. I dont know it all . But when there is trace in the radar screen , it will be reported.
As Sergio put it in his YouTube . We are not pushing any lineage but hoping all lineage to get the best.
Just hope a new era based on rational, scientific and democratic ,
With non lineage pushing is started .
Here's evidence for your DNA converge 6 directional vector force database.
http://www.wingtjun.com/yip-man-wing-tjun/history/
According to the latest research, Wing Tjun clearly descended from the Siu Lam (Shaolin temple).
Unlike the story which is most popular today, which refers to a crane and fox or snake and the
Buddhist mistress Ng Mui teaching Lady Yim Wing Chun.
his-story repeats, Sergio contradicts himself again.
Snake-Crane DNA is the latest surrogate baby for Sergio but at the end Hendrik will continue to nurse his baby and Sergio will leave with whatsoever left of his credibility. Then the Wing Chun community will get another video like this, Wing Chun Idiots, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7cJoZcbvzXY
Hendrik
03-12-2014, 05:13 PM
What exactly is this supposed DNA, just come out with it. You say carbon test only shows age, what if the person who wrote it is wrong. Exactly, age dating gives a legitimate time frame, the second part answers itself. What is the signature of the era? I know of several schools of TCMA that within one generation of tutelage of the same master are vastly different in composition from one another. It's because they evolved, each added their own innovations and emphasized their own preferences. Look at Chan Wah Shun - Yip Man - Ho Kam Ming - Fong Chi Wing as an example. From Chan to Fong vastly different in composition, yet still the same art. Go tell Ho Kam Ming and Fong Chi Wing their doing it all wrong, that they don't have the super secret DNA signature of some obscure one off in Malaysia.
I am not talking one school I am talking the tcma at a particular era has its common denominator .
As for DNA , a Bagua is not a Xing yi. They have different DNA which can be examine into very details.
You think the Sanshi is incomplete WC? Tell that to Gulao village.
I had the same thought! ;)
But tell me, what is the evidence that there was no SLT, CK, BG forms prior to Leung Jan?
Hendrik
03-12-2014, 06:28 PM
[QUOTE=Hendrik;1263329]
You think the Sanshi is incomplete WC? Tell that to Gulao village.
A,
Any holistic ancient Chinese martial art has
1. the body Of the art
and 2. application of the art based on the body of the art.
B,
In Wck,
Sanshi is # 2.
In Wck SNT is #1
Wck needs to have both in order to be complete.
C, this simple. It doesn't who is the big name.
[QUOTE=dlcox;1263345]
A,
Any holistic ancient Chinese martial art has
1. the body Of the art
and 2. application of the art based on the body of the art.
B,
In Wck,
Sanshi is # 2.
In Wck SNT is #1
Wck needs to have both in order to be complete.
C, this simple. It doesn't who is the big name.
I'm sure Master Fung Chun would have been very disappointed to discover that his art was incomplete. I bet Jim Roselando will be unhappy to hear that his art is incomplete as well. I'm sad to know that I study an incomplete art! :(
Hendrik
03-12-2014, 06:50 PM
[QUOTE=Hendrik;1263357]
I'm sure Master Fung Chun would have been very disappointed to discover that his art was incomplete. I bet Jim Roselando will be unhappy to hear that his art is incomplete as well. I'm sad to know that I study an incomplete art! :(
Facts are facts.
Why do you think the ancestor created SNT?
Chinese tcm DNA is a reality.
It is not an open discussion when in comes to Chinese tradition . It is not my rule.
Otherwise other a style will laugh at Wck.
So, one better admit it , instead of cover out and get expose.
Hendrik
03-12-2014, 07:52 PM
Hi Keith,
In all honesty there is no evidence to say their wasn't 3 forms before Leung Jan. Problem is any branch claiming to have them and claiming no lineage to Leung Jan at some point in their history has proven to be fraudulent. Most of them when explored have traced back to Yip Man. Yip was very innovative and his streamlined art has difinative signatures that are evident in some of these so called lost lineages. WC was a small school that flowered in the early 1900's. By 1950 the style had a rebirth, unfortunately during those early turbulent years of war much of the history had been lost, and many now try to cash in on this.
There are signature all over the place if one knows how to read.
Salutation is a signature to know if it is from red boat opera.
The drive development is another signature if the SNT is working well.
The different section within the SNT is a signature to see different lineage .
The breathing and movements syncronization is to see of the art has evolve into external art.
Checking all these above with tcma DNA of the era, the Chinese history, the mother arts DNA.
One will know what is likely. As soon as one knows the rule of thump one knows.
For example, SNT using YJKYM not white crane Sanchin stance, that lead to a different type of power generation evolution, that can trace to emei because emei because emei is using the equal shoulder stance,.. Then the joints handling, then the technics.......all can be check in . It is like checking different car frame and engine ....etc
However, if one though it is open discussion that everyone can have thier five cents and translation. One can spend 1000 live time go no where. That is the biggest issue in the forum in general. And history actually meaning less if it is not leading to know the way to make the set function properly. Imho
PalmStriker
03-12-2014, 08:05 PM
Here is an article that really spells out the modern evolution of WingChun as known to the general public. One can speculate all day whether or not there is historically a connection to Mt. Emei snake concept in the formation of WingChun. Personally, I feel the obvious movements of the snake form imbedded in the Yui Choi style and also the Hung Kuen Lam Yan Hardstyle Wingchun is a better starting point for understanding the snake-crane kungfu relationship that was taught to Leung Jan. The demonstration of this form looks nothing like "WingChun" and yet, some of the techniques throughout the common family 3 sets look very snake-like. Tiger-crane style is another example of bonded style but no one here is questioning it's origin. :D http://chinesemartialstudies.com/2012/10/19/lives-of-chinese-martial-artists-3-chan-wah-shun-and-the-creation-of-wing-chun/
Hendrik
03-12-2014, 08:08 PM
Hendrik, there are no secret unstoppable movements. SNT is basic structure no need to over analyze and affix to it some long lost method of qigong. -----
I have never said there is secret and never use the term qigong. In fact against using the term qigong .
I suggest you understand what I have presented before speculate.
To do so is to miss the whole idea. Contemplating your navel instead of focusing on structure, support and power generation is a sure way to get defeated. It becomes Tai Chi dance instead of Tai Chi fist so to speak. Focusing on chi isn't going to stop a punch a strong bridge is. ---
You are getting creative . I don't do what you post above at all.
Sorry , the term structure is a term coin by some one taken from taiji.
Btw,
In ancient Wck , it deals with momentum instead of structure.
If you want to present your theory in a way that can be readily accepted, try strengthening the link between white crane and WC. Ermei is tenuous, white crane is established and provides much more historical information that is accepted by the general MA community. Your working backwards by presenting theory then trying to establish a link of ancestry. Start from the beginning and move forward. -----
I present a facts with DNA which be able to make SNT works not theory.
And not expect others to accept it . My attitude is always take it or leave it. Try it out and see it for yourself if you like.
No pushing no marketing. Free will based
Hendrik
03-12-2014, 08:13 PM
[QUOTE=Hendrik;1263357]
Wing Chun is IMO not health first application second. I'll argue this with you until I'm blue in the face. WC is conceptual and application driven not health oriented new age hippy kung fu as you are implying above.
Body of the art got nothing to do with health. But the drive or engine development of the art.
Minghequan
03-12-2014, 08:46 PM
I present a facts with DNA which be able to make SNT works not theory.
God **** Hendrik! I mean really?
Here you go again stating that you are presenting "FACTS" yet with no supporting evidence based on actual historically proven evidence!
Hendrik lets get this through your skull .... It is not a FACT! Period! It IS your own "HIS-STORY!" Period!
And not expect others to accept it . My attitude is always take it or leave it. Try it out and see it for yourself if you like.
Really? ... You don't expect others to accept it yet you post it and post it and post it and re-post it here and then when questioned as to the veracity of your "His-Story" you then say cop-out rubbish like that above!
No pushing no marketing. Free will based
Hendrik, quite frankly BULLS@#T! I am calling you out on this one. You are involved in marketing. You are not only marketing yourself but also marketing Sergio with your links to his Youtube Vids which whoops! .... mentions that he has a up and coming book on this very subject and cites you within same!
Hendrik, simply put stop the rubbish. All this is doing is making you look like some sort of "staved for acceptance" story-teller!
Hendrik
03-12-2014, 08:54 PM
Please go check with the ancient tcma expert on what I say before jump gun.
[QUOTE=Hendrik;1263369]
The drive or engine as you call it is present in all the movement of the art. It is through development of structure and application of individual technique where understanding and refinement occur. This can be achieved through form practice but only to a small degree. Application of the seperate techniques is the soul of the art. Understanding and comprehension occur in movement with resistance not static posture. The forms are nothing more than a catalogue of the loose techniques and concepts. It is what they represent not what they are that makes them relevant. What you suggest is qigong whether you admit it or not. This ancient method that you found may very well be valid, but I believe it's relevance is limited to the branch from which it sprung. Some things need to die when they loose their relevance. It is simply one individuals concept, it failed the test of time and should have remained buried. It brings nothing viable to the table IMO. You want to play around with it and pretend you have the the correct version, knock yourself out. I'll keep on chugging along my own path and look to the future by applying the techniques and theory I have to elevate my understanding through what my teachers gave me, because I don't believe they withheld anything or their teachers from them.
GlennR
03-12-2014, 09:03 PM
Please go check with the ancient tcma expert on what I say before jump gun.
[QUOTE=dlcox;1263371]
Like who??????
Tell us who agrees with you
Minghequan
03-12-2014, 09:14 PM
Please go check with the ancient tcma expert on what I say before jump gun.
Okay Hendrik, I'll bite .... Please tell me (and the others as I am sure they are dying to know) who exactly is this "ANCIENT TCMA EXPERT" you just wrote of is???
I'm betting you won't name names (just a hunch I have about you).
Minghequan
03-13-2014, 01:06 AM
dlcox
Wait, could it be that this ancient TCMA expert is really...........................BAWANG!
Well it certainly isn't Hendrik and his buddy Sergio!!!
I wonder if we will ever find out from Hendrik who this venerable "ANCIENT TCMA EXPERT" is???
For example, SNT using YJKYM not white crane Sanchin stance, that lead to a different type of power generation evolution, that can trace to emei because emei because emei is using the equal shoulder stance,.. Then the joints handling, then the technics.......all can be check in . It is like checking different car frame and engine ....etc
Ok. I follow you on this point Hendrik. What you are saying is all about body mechanics. But you need to clarify what you mean by "SNT." You say any Wing Chun without SNT is incomplete. But do you mean the SNT of Yik Kam Wing Chun (which is essentially SNT, Chum Kiu & Biu Gee combined) or do you mean the SNT of versions like Yip Man or Yuen Kay Shan that are the "1st form" done in a stationary position?
And why is it that without the SNT, a version of Wing Chun is not in line with TCMA? White Crane evidently was original taught in a San Sik format. Was it also incomplete? Did it also lack "TCMA DNA"?
You do realize you have managed to insult a whole lineage of Wing Chun that dates directly back to Leung Jan in an unbroken line with a solidly established tradition and reputation in China?
You do realize that I was willing to go along with your historical theories because it was starting to make some sense and someone like Robert Chu was backing you up. But now you've gone a little too far I think. I was defending you to some extent for "overstating your case" because we all do that at one time or another. But now you're just starting to sound a bit looney. Or maybe I should say "loonier than usual!"
Well said Dave!!!
I agree! Particularly when it comes to most Wing Chun, the forms are simply San Sik strung together. A lot of other TCMA styles are recreating a whole series of movements that are a response to an imaginary opponent. Wing Chun isn't like that at all. That's why I don't understand Hendrik's reference to "TCMA DNA." Just what the heck does that mean? :confused: How is it that a San Sik based method doesn't have it, but a method that is essentially San Sik strung together does?
Hendrik
03-13-2014, 09:39 AM
Ok. I follow you on this point Hendrik. What you are saying is all about body mechanics. But you need to clarify what you mean by "SNT." --------
Ok
You say any Wing Chun without SNT is incomplete.
But do you mean the SNT of Yik Kam Wing Chun (which is essentially SNT, Chum Kiu & Biu Gee combined) or do you mean the SNT of versions like Yip Man or Yuen Kay Shan that are the "1st form" done in a stationary position?
And why is it that without the SNT, a version of Wing Chun is not in line with TCMA?
---------
I mean SNT of any lineages , provided the core elements is there.
Yes, the first form, SNT,
We know per today, all SNT of different lineage Pre Ipman evolution has the core elements and process of development embedded.
In addition, it is not done in a stationary position ,
but a dynamic practice and development under a small physical changes , in ordered to develop maximin force and momentum handling under minimum physical change. It prepare one for high intensity center line inner gate capture and occupied . The uniqueness of Wck fighting philosophy .
Without this development , on this type of the body of the art or engine or drive capability , the Wck applications based on its center capture philosophy cannot be implemented effective and efficiently.
A San sik is just an example of application scenerio . And not all San sik is Wck. Wck San sik has to satisfy Wck fighting philosophy and having the support of the body of the art or engine of the drive.
These above is the way how the ancient tcma player sees for a complete system.
It is not for open discussion nor my personal idea. It is like if one study beetoven music one better fulfill Beetoven music system requirement .
White Crane evidently was original taught in a San Sik format. Was it also incomplete? Did it also lack "TCMA DNA"? -------
That is not the facts.
Read the ancient white crane of fujian documents. It is one of the most complete systematic documents where the six core elements ( physical, mind, breathing, Qi, force flow, and momentum) are fully describe.
Thus, they have details on their joints power generation , the 15 type of original momentum, the way how to body handling synchronize with breathing and Qi...etc.
Also, there are many version of white crane of fujian , they range from the type which taugh just for simple self defense scenerious to the type which is practiced by the general level of the Taiwan based Ming army. And what I am refer to is the general level type .
You do realize you have managed to insult a whole lineage of Wing Chun that dates directly back to Leung Jan in an unbroken line with a solidly established tradition and reputation in China? ---------
Read my previous post.
I present facts with reference to Chinese classics .
Either one fit the Chinese ancient rule or not.
What I present as above apply to Wck or white crane of fujian or any Chinese martial art equally.
Never Did I insult anyone or any lineage .
You do realize that I was willing to go along with your historical theories because it was starting to make some sense and someone like Robert Chu was backing you up. But now you've gone a little too far I think. I was defending you to some extent for "overstating your case" because we all do that at one time or another. But now you're just starting to sound a bit looney. Or maybe I should say "loonier than usual!" ----
I don't expect anyone to go along with me. I present the facts of what happen which apply to ancient Chinese martial art. One can take it or leave it.
In fact, I encourage everyone tondo thier research instead of take my words or anyone's endorsement.
If one doesn't follow the ancient Chinese classic, then expect any bubble will burst . It is better now to know what is the bottom line and facts. Again, I present what I found, one is free to take it or leave it.
Lastly, I must state , do you think one can cover up fire with paper? Do you think story and name droping can cover up the tcma researchers of china or the internal art practitioner of china? Can one close the ear to steal a bell?
For me, for me only I don't expect anyone to follow me, I rather know the facts now, what is lack and make it complete instead of waiting to the point the whole thing collapse. This is an Ethernet era, lots of things will surface and surface fast.
Finally, it is not history, it is not me, it is the art or science of the ancient Chinese , again it is Simlar to the Newtonian physics or the beetoven music. They have clear definition.
Similar to the newton three laws, It is not an open discussion, if it is Newtonian physics one must have that three laws. If some one tell me my knowledge is in complete because I have only one law instead of three. I would thank him instead of accuse him on insulting me.
I seldom like to discuss lately because there are lots of facts in tcma classic practice which is not for open discussion. Presenting those facts often get people to accuse me on putting down others or insult ....all kind of defensive reaction.
should these proper ancient Chinese classic to be reveal ? Or one rather to keep living in the bubble?
I leave that to the future generation wcners to judge.
Jim Roselando
03-13-2014, 01:41 PM
Just jumping in this discussion for one reply!
***
A, Any holistic ancient Chinese martial art has
1. the body Of the art and 2. application of the art based on the body of the art.
B, In Wck, Sanshi is # 2.
In Wck SNT is #1
Wck needs to have both in order to be complete.
C, this simple. It doesn't who is the big name.
***
The above information is correct. Body and Application needs to be present. San Gong & San Sik. Dr. Leung Jan's Gulao art is not void of the above layout just a refined version. Before one begins to study the "12 Way's of The Fist" they begin with some pre-exercises that are not only basics but methods of conditioning the body.
Next, the 1st two skills of the 12 are "Siu Lin Tao & "Dai" Siu Lin Tao". What are they? Core elements from Dr. Leung's original SLT set. What do they contain? Both are single "open" hand basics. Some skills included are: Pak, Fook, Jut, Got, Chuen, etc...
All this stuff is from SLT. Dr. Leung made sure his pupils began with SLT actions/gong.
Part of Dr. Leung's basic training was the Som Bai Fut which is essential for supporting and reeling mechanics as well as range of motion, positioning etc...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bmXWjKPYIts
***
From the Song of Pin Sun Wing Chun:
Siu Lin Tao, Dai Lin Tao, Som Bai Fut
"Practice often they will change you"
***
So, one can clearly see that Dr. Leung Jan's Pin Sun Wing Chun is essentially a refined or mini Siu Lin Tau/Chum Kiu/Biu Jee combined with rotation/twisting and not 12 Self Defense "San Sao" actions. Our training has specific physical conditioning and utilizes specific dynamics that is combined with "loose legs/loose body". This also shows that during Leung Jan's era, Wing Chun did not lock off the bodies bows by clamping the hips/shoulders/knees.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KgtJkoabiKM
***
Part of this confusion about Leung Jan's teaching is my fault. Early on I called it San Sao or San Sik, as it was the common term being used on the net, but, it truly doesn't give the reader an understanding of my arts design, development, applications...
***
Its been a long time since I posted on KFO!
It felt good but not good enough to post again for another three years!
Adios!
Hendrik
03-13-2014, 02:02 PM
Jim,
Thanks and appreciate!
Your clarification is excellent!
I don't know it all and often wrong too. But an open discussion of these type is very constructive because it clear things up for everyone and actually help me to understand more about other lineages too which is a very important part .
I also like to call everyone's attention on GM Fung Chun YouTube .
Gm Fung chun is presenting both the crane DNA as in the sifu Sergio part 1 and snake from emei as in the sifu Sergio part 2. Only with a crane then snake sequence . That is the body of the art of Wck. By evidence.
Thus one can see these DNA is across Wck lineages.
Just jumping in this discussion for one reply!
***
A, Any holistic ancient Chinese martial art has
1. the body Of the art and 2. application of the art based on the body of the art.
B, In Wck, Sanshi is # 2.
In Wck SNT is #1
Wck needs to have both in order to be complete.
C, this simple. It doesn't who is the big name.
***
The above information is correct. Body and Application needs to be present. San Gong & San Sik. Dr. Leung Jan's Gulao art is not void of the above layout just a refined version. Before one begins to study the "12 Way's of The Fist" they begin with some pre-exercises that are not only basics but methods of conditioning the body.
Next, the 1st two skills of the 12 are "Siu Lin Tao & "Dai" Siu Lin Tao". What are they? Core elements from Dr. Leung's original SLT set. What do they contain? Both are single "open" hand basics. Some skills included are: Pak, Fook, Jut, Got, Chuen, etc...
All this stuff is from SLT. Dr. Leung made sure his pupils began with SLT actions/gong.
Part of Dr. Leung's basic training was the Som Bai Fut which is essential for supporting and reeling mechanics as well as range of motion, positioning etc...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bmXWjKPYIts
***
From the Song of Pin Sun Wing Chun:
Siu Lin Tao, Dai Lin Tao, Som Bai Fut
"Practice often they will change you"
***
So, one can clearly see that Dr. Leung Jan's Pin Sun Wing Chun is essentially a refined or mini Siu Lin Tau/Chum Kiu/Biu Jee combined with rotation/twisting and not 12 Self Defense "San Sao" actions. Our training has specific physical conditioning and utilizes specific dynamics that is combined with "loose legs/loose body". This also shows that during Leung Jan's era, Wing Chun did not lock off the bodies bows by clamping the hips/shoulders/knees.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KgtJkoabiKM
***
Part of this confusion about Leung Jan's teaching is my fault. Early on I called it San Sao or San Sik, as it was the common term being used on the net, but, it truly doesn't give the reader an understanding of my arts design, development, applications...
***
Its been a long time since I posted on KFO!
It felt good but not good enough to post again for another three years!
Adios!
Hey Jim! Good to see you posting!
Dr. Leung Jan's Gulao art is not void of the above layout just a refined version. Before one begins to study the "12 Way's of The Fist" they begin with some pre-exercises that are not only basics but methods of conditioning the body.
Next, the 1st two skills of the 12 are "Siu Lin Tao & "Dai" Siu Lin Tao". What are they? Core elements from Dr. Leung's original SLT set. What do they contain? Both are single "open" hand basics. Some skills included are: Pak, Fook, Jut, Got, Chuen, etc...
All this stuff is from SLT. Dr. Leung made sure his pupils began with SLT actions/gong
So, one can clearly see that Dr. Leung Jan's Pin Sun Wing Chun is essentially a refined or mini Siu Lin Tau/Chum Kiu/Biu Jee combined with rotation/twisting and not 12 Self Defense "San Sao" actions.
.
I know what you are saying and I agree with you. But that is not what Hendrik said. That is why I asked for clarification. He said a San Sik based art was incomplete because it did not have the SNT form. I pointed out that the SNT form was essentially multiple San Siks strung together, with what you wrote above in mind. I also pointed out that it was a bit disrespectful to the Ku Lo Pin Sun lineage to say it is "incomplete" because it lacks the SNT form. Hendrik's response was essentially "if the shoe fits wear it!" And now he thanks you for your response and agrees with you, when what he originally wrote does not agree with you at all!
Its been a long time since I posted on KFO!
Don't be a stranger! Please chime in again in the future!
Hendrik
03-13-2014, 06:08 PM
KPM
1.
Please read my definition of San sik. In my above post.
A San sik is just an example of application scenerio . And not all San sik is Wck. Wck San sik has to satisfy Wck fighting philosophy and having the support of the body of the art or engine of the drive.
2.
And the original post
http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?67366-Wck-DNA-part-2&p=1263357#post1263357
[QUOTE=dlcox;1263345]
You think the Sanshi is incomplete WC? Tell that to Gulao village. ----- dicox
The following is Hendrik s response :
A,
Any holistic ancient Chinese martial art has
1. the body Of the art
and 2. application of the art based on the body of the art.
B,
In Wck,
Sanshi is # 2.
In Wck SNT is #1
Wck needs to have both in order to be complete.
C, this simple. It doesn't who is the big name.
3. Kung is never a San shi.
SNT training is a Kung training not a Sanshi training.
Hey Jim! Good to see you posting!
Dr. Leung Jan's Gulao art is not void of the above layout just a refined version. Before one begins to study the "12 Way's of The Fist" they begin with some pre-exercises that are not only basics but methods of conditioning the body.
Next, the 1st two skills of the 12 are "Siu Lin Tao & "Dai" Siu Lin Tao". What are they? Core elements from Dr. Leung's original SLT set. What do they contain? Both are single "open" hand basics. Some skills included are: Pak, Fook, Jut, Got, Chuen, etc...
All this stuff is from SLT. Dr. Leung made sure his pupils began with SLT actions/gong
So, one can clearly see that Dr. Leung Jan's Pin Sun Wing Chun is essentially a refined or mini Siu Lin Tau/Chum Kiu/Biu Jee combined with rotation/twisting and not 12 Self Defense "San Sao" actions.
.
I know what you are saying and I agree with you. But that is not what Hendrik said. That is why I asked for clarification. He said a San Sik based art was incomplete because it did not have the SNT form. I pointed out that the SNT form was essentially multiple San Siks strung together, with what you wrote above in mind. I also pointed out that it was a bit disrespectful to the Ku Lo Pin Sun lineage to say it is "incomplete" because it lacks the SNT form. Hendrik's response was essentially "if the shoe fits wear it!" And now he thanks you for your response and agrees with you, when what he originally wrote does not agree with you at all!
Its been a long time since I posted on KFO!
Don't be a stranger! Please chime in again in the future!
KPM
Please read my definition of San sik. In my above post.
A San sik is just an example of application scenerio . And not all San sik is Wck. Wck San sik has to satisfy Wck fighting philosophy and having the support of the body of the art or engine of the drive.
But earlier I gave Ku Lo Pin Sun specifically as an example when I said:
I'm sure Master Fung Chun would have been very disappointed to discover that his art was incomplete. I bet Jim Roselando will be unhappy to hear that his art is incomplete as well. I'm sad to know that I study an incomplete art!
And you replied:
Facts are facts.
Why do you think the ancestor created SNT?
Chinese tcm DNA is a reality.
It is not an open discussion when in comes to Chinese tradition . It is not my rule.
Otherwise other a style will laugh at Wck.
So, one better admit it , instead of cover out and get expose.
And just above I said:
You do realize you have managed to insult a whole lineage of Wing Chun that dates directly back to Leung Jan in an unbroken line with a solidly established tradition and reputation in China? ---------
And you replied:
Read my previous post.
I present facts with reference to Chinese classics .
Either one fit the Chinese ancient rule or not.
But now that Jim has spoken up you're saying that this isn't what you meant when you said "San Sik"?????? :rolleyes:
Hendrik
03-13-2014, 06:29 PM
KPM
From you statement
I pointed out that the SNT form was essentially multiple San Siks strung together, with what you wrote above in mind.
It is evidentally, you are not at the same pace as Jim and me.
Nope, SNT is not multiple San skis strung together.
You still not clear between the body of the art and the application of the art which Jim and me talk about.
I truely suggest you visit Jim. And do not use the term San sik as you do.
Hendrik
03-13-2014, 07:05 PM
San sik cannot be San Gong.
Please understand what Jim means by
The above information is correct.
Body and Application needs to be present.
San Gong & San Sik.
All this stuff is from SLT. Dr. Leung made sure his pupils began with SLT actions/gong.
Before you jump gun on me.
But earlier I gave Ku Lo Pin Sun specifically as an example when I said:
I'm sure Master Fung Chun would have been very disappointed to discover that his art was incomplete. I bet Jim Roselando will be unhappy to hear that his art is incomplete as well. I'm sad to know that I study an incomplete art!
And you replied:
Facts are facts.
Why do you think the ancestor created SNT?
Chinese tcm DNA is a reality.
It is not an open discussion when in comes to Chinese tradition . It is not my rule.
Otherwise other a style will laugh at Wck.
So, one better admit it , instead of cover out and get expose.
And just above I said:
You do realize you have managed to insult a whole lineage of Wing Chun that dates directly back to Leung Jan in an unbroken line with a solidly established tradition and reputation in China? ---------
And you replied:
Read my previous post.
I present facts with reference to Chinese classics .
Either one fit the Chinese ancient rule or not.
But now that Jim has spoken up you're saying that this isn't what you meant when you said "San Sik"?????? :rolleyes:
GlennR
03-13-2014, 08:34 PM
I know what you are saying and I agree with you. But that is not what Hendrik said. That is why I asked for clarification. He said a San Sik based art was incomplete because it did not have the SNT form. I pointed out that the SNT form was essentially multiple San Siks strung together, with what you wrote above in mind. I also pointed out that it was a bit disrespectful to the Ku Lo Pin Sun lineage to say it is "incomplete" because it lacks the SNT form. Hendrik's response was essentially "if the shoe fits wear it!" And now he thanks you for your response and agrees with you, when what he originally wrote does not agree with you at all!
Exactly, honestly, the man has no shame pushing his agenda. He has completely contradicted himself, why cant people see this??
BPWT..
03-14-2014, 02:34 AM
Hendrik,
You said that, "Any holistic ancient Chinese martial art has: 1. the body Of the art, and 2. application of the art based on the body of the art."
When you say 'body of the art', are you meaning the body method, the physical requirements? E.g. Dropping the shoulders and sinking the elbows, head up and spinal column straight, etc.
Just a question, but if that is what you were meaning then wouldn't Wing Chun San Sik (from whatever lineage) automatically include the 'Wing Chun body'?
Or am I confusing your meaning?
I mean, why would a system have San Sik that didn't follow the system's body method requirements?
KPM
From you statement
I pointed out that the SNT form was essentially multiple San Siks strung together, with what you wrote above in mind.
It is evidentally, you are not at the same pace as Jim and me.
Nope, SNT is not multiple San skis strung together.
You still not clear between the body of the art and the application of the art which Jim and me talk about.
I truely suggest you visit Jim. And do not use the term San sik as you do.
No Hendrik. You are twisting things around now. I think you backed yourself into a corner and rather than admit you were mistaken you are trying to hide behind the old "you have to visit and experience to know what I'm talking about." No. Here are the FACTS:
You stated that any San Sik based method is incomplete because it does not have the SNT form. I essentially pointed out the KLPS system, which you and I both know is San Sik based but is NOT just a collection of San Sao tactics. You and I both already knew what Jim wrote above. Yet you did not qualify your statements at that time when I asked for clarification, but rather affirmed that what you said about a San Sik based method applied to KLPS as well. You COULD have said, "no this does not apply to KLPS because they train the San Sik as more than just loose applications and are still doing the SNT development in their San Sik". But you didn't. What you said was:
Facts are facts.
Why do you think the ancestor created SNT?
And:
I present facts with reference to Chinese classics .
Either one fit the Chinese ancient rule or not.
So are you now saying that what you wrote previously about a San Sik based method does not apply to Ku Lo Pin Sun Wing Chun? Are you admitting that what you wrote previously was wrong or at least a bit misleading????
Jim Roselando
03-14-2014, 04:53 AM
Keith wrote:
So are you now saying that what you wrote previously about a San Sik based method does not apply to Ku Lo Pin Sun Wing Chun? Are you admitting that what you wrote previously was wrong or at least a bit misleading????
***
The are different methods of WC San Sik, that is what Hendrik is mentioning as lacking the core SLT gong. There is no question that is accurate. Dr. Leung Jan's PSWC does not fall into that category as it isn't just a few actions San Sik for self defense but many of todays Gulao WC lineages do fall into that category as they have swayed far from Dr. Leung's design. It, PSWC, is a mini classical system with 12 stages of development and the root of those 12 (#1&2) are retained from Dr. Leung's SLT.
Hendrik is correct. WC without SLT gong is similar to eating 'frosting without cake'. It's ok but it's just not the same. SLT is cake, the rest is frosting. When combined it builds the proper stuff...
Adios...
Keith wrote:
So are you now saying that what you wrote previously about a San Sik based method does not apply to Ku Lo Pin Sun Wing Chun? Are you admitting that what you wrote previously was wrong or at least a bit misleading????
***
The are different methods of WC San Sik, that is what Hendrik is mentioning as lacking the core SLT gong. There is no question that is accurate. Dr. Leung Jan's PSWC does not fall into that category as it isn't just a few actions San Sik for self defense. It is a mini classical system with 12 stages of development and the root of those 12 (#1&2) are retained from Dr. Leung's SLT.
Hendrik is correct. WC without SLT gong is similar to eating 'frosting without cake'. It's ok but it's just not the same. SLT is cake, the rest is frosting. When combined it builds the proper stuff...
Adios...
Again Jim, I agree with you. But that is not what Henrik said. I specifically pointed out KLPSWC and Hendrik DID include it in that category. Please read my post above. So Hendrik needs to clarify whether he still believes that is true, or was wrong in his prior postings.
Jim Roselando
03-14-2014, 05:47 AM
Kieth,
Hendrik doesn't know, nor has he researched PSWC very much...
He did state that my reply help clarify things and probably because my reply shows Dr Leung also start with San Gong & SLT Gong for his root in PSWC not just 12 fighting techniques...
He wrote this after I replied:
.... these type is very constructive because it clear things up for everyone and """actually help me to understand more""" about other lineages too which is a very important part .
***
Bye
Kieth,
Hendrik doesn't know, nor has he researched PSWC very much...
He did state that my reply help clarify things and probably because my reply shows Dr Leung also start with San Gong & SLT Gong for his root in PSWC not just 12 fighting techniques...
He wrote this after I replied:
.... these type is very constructive because it clear things up for everyone and """actually help me to understand more""" about other lineages too which is a very important part .
***
Bye
Ok! Fair enough! Thanks Jim!
tc101
03-15-2014, 05:07 AM
Hendrik is correct. WC without SLT gong is similar to eating 'frosting without cake'. It's ok but it's just not the same. SLT is cake, the rest is frosting. When combined it builds the proper stuff...
Adios...
Why is it why is it that these guys who always have the so called proper stuff or real wing chun or what everyone else is lacking are always the guys that absolutely refuse to step up and show what they can do with the proper stuff?
Where is Obasi when we need him?
Why is it why is it that these guys who always have the so called proper stuff or real wing chun or what everyone else is lacking are always the guys that absolutely refuse to step up and show what they can do with the proper stuff?
Yeah! And why is it that the guys that think they know all the answers because they spar regularly with their buddies never look like they are doing ANY proper Wing Chun when you see them on video? ;) There is a happy medium between those these two perspectives that we just don't see too often. It is a shame and I wish there were more examples.
Kieth,
Hendrik doesn't know, nor has he researched PSWC very much...
Hendrik has not acknowledged or responded to this, but still makes comments about gong and San Sik not going together despite my explanations on the other thread of how it is approached in PSWC. Yet Hendrik holds himself out as great researcher of Wing Chun. It annoys me when people pick and choose what they will respond to and ignore valid points made by others when it doesn't fit with their own theories. Just sayin.....
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.2 Copyright © 2024 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.