San Sik strung together

[KPM]

This is for David Cox. I couldn't find where I mentioned this in one of the other threads, so just started a new one by default. I had commented that you can find youtube footage of both Fung Chun and Fung Keung stringing multiple San Sik from KLPSWC together to make them look like one long form and this had created some confusion for people. Here is a young Fung Keung stringing San Sik together during a public demo:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2qlfeMH2oBg&list=PL02EDBEF26759329C

Here is that classic footage of Fung Chun shot by Leung Ting (ignore the part with the young guys doing Chi Sao with their butts sticking out. I don't know what the heck that is!):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V5cqRp-YtuM&list=PL58D1A558BA6A9E37

Compare these to this actual Yong Chun White Crane form, which I maintain is essentially mulitple San Sik strung together:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YwpHuTwjS30

Short sequences practiced individually....or strung together in a series....what's the real difference? Not much in my mind.

[KPM]

Here is a Yuen Kay Shan Wing Chun guy stringing together the 12 San Sik that Sum Nun kept from his time with Cheung Bo. This makes it look like one long form.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hV9g6PQLpNU&list=PL02EDBEF26759329C

Technically, you could say that this is YKSWCK's "4th form"! :)

So again, what is the big difference between training these short sequences individually compared to putting them together in one form? Not much in my opinion! So I think for Hendrik to say that KLPSWC is "incomplete" because it lacks the SNT form, and for Joy to talk disparagingly about KLPS because he thinks it is "just some basic drills" is not right! But neither one is inclined to change their poorly informed opinions. So I will just continue to point out their mistaken comments as needed! ;-)

[KPM]

HW, I think most people that have done YMWCK have practiced those! They just didn't necessarily organize it that way or give it a name! Anything broken out for formal practice as a short sequence of movement could be considered a San Sik. Heck, you can and should make up your own for practice. I think this is what leads Joy to think that KLPSWC is "just some basic drills", because from one perspective that is what San Sik are...techniques drilled on their own for practice.

But let me again emphasize the logic of what Leung Jan did when he reorganized the way he taught Wing Chun in Ku Lo village at the end of his life. It wasn't JUST as short sequences of techniques for drilling. Each of the San Sik sequences in KLPS has a specific body mechanic, intent, "theme", "gong", or whatever you'd like to call it. Leung Jan took this into careful consideration when he designed the San Sik. They are progressive in nature, meaning you work on them in a particular order and they develop your body and your "gong" in a specific way. Each San Sik has an accompanying two man application drill so you know exactly what it is training you to do. Some of them have more than one way to train them as two man drills. Each San Sik is also applied on the dummy. So in KLPS you start using the wooden dummy right away. You don't wait for well on in the curriculum before being exposed to it. And of course each San Sik is applied in Chi Sao as well as Jao Sao or sparring. Leung Jan knew he had limited time at the end of his life to pass on the culmination of his life's experience training and fighting with Wing Chun and he came up with an ingenious and effective way to do this. He wasn't just "passing the time" with a bunch of farm boys as some seem to think.

[Firehawk4]

Acording to this article Fung Sang taught a 18 point system in Hong Kong Maybe this is that Yip Man 18 San Sao or San Sik system from Fung Sang ? I also found on a website where it says Wng Kiu or Lock Yiu practiced a 18 san sao system
here is what some of the article says
he art of Side Body Boxing is rooted in the Twelve Fists of Master Leung Jan but there is much more to the systems curriculum to be studied, which, lead to different expressions of the art. One element of Kulo history that was confirmed from this interview was; Who developed the Yee Sup Yee or Twenty Two Point Kulo system? It was Fang Sang’s father, Fung Lim, who developed, and taught, this system to the public! The system that Fung Sang taught consisted of Eighteen Points (12/6), Dummy, Pole & Dbl Knives. Fung Ho Chiu said this about his sifu’s teaching, “Ging power comes from “yao yun” soft power from the waist. In the early training the horse is emphasized along with the 18 basics single man followed by the Chi Sao two man training.”

[Firehawk4]

http://www.w1ng.com/an-interview-with-fung-sang-family/

[KPM]

Are these San sik "points" the same as what is termed "methods"?

.

Not exactly. The term typically used is "Faat." From my understanding, a "method" is much more conceptual. It is more like a guiding concept or tactic and does not refer to specific technique. Robert Chu uses the term "mental methods." I think other TCMAs sometimes use the English term "keywords." Yip Man dropped these, but Yuen Kay Shan kept them. So many of Robert's "mental methods" come from his study of YKSWCK. But, just like I have said before that a specific San Sik in KLPS may train a specific "gong" or body mechanic, it may also embody a specific "faat" or tactic/strategy.

[KPM]

Acording to this article Fung Sang taught a 18 point system in Hong Kong Maybe this is that Yip Man 18 San Sao or San Sik system from Fung Sang ? I also found on a website where it says Wng Kiu or Lock Yiu practiced a 18 san sao system
.”

I doubt it. I've never read anything about Yip Man being connected to KLPS. Fung Sang was teaching in Hong Kong in the early 70's. Yip Man was well-established by then and this was probably after any phase where Yip Man taught any organized San Sik method. Again, I think training a series of techniques as drills has likely always been part of Wing Chun. What people are seeing as a "18 point system" within YMWCK was very likely just a set of these drills that someone organized into a standard curriculum for training. Someone else may change it around and mix and match and so there was no reason to keep it "standardized." Its all still there, just spread out and taught at different times and in different ways depending on the instructor.

[KPM]

Thx again KPM.

Are we talking about (as an example) something like "huen"? Is it a piece of a form (ie SLT)? A technique that can be extracted and focused upon in a San sik? And it could also be considered a 'method'?
Or another keyword one hears often is 'jeet' but I can't recall a specific 'shape' or 'technique' that embodies it. Therefore I bbelieve one can 'jeet' with a variety of the arts' tools correct?

Huen...no. Jeet...yes! I found this in my archives. Something that Terrence Niehoff wrote several years back:

WCK's faat mun provides a strategy that permits us to strike the opponent while being safe, that strategy is to join (daap), close them down (jeet), break their structure (chum), then deliver our weapons (biu), all the while maintaining flexible attachment (chi). While these may appear as sequential, often they overlap -- ideally you want to daap, jeet, chum in one action (to break an opponent's structure on contact).

The WCK faat isn't about "change", it is a strategic approach to fighting. Look, ground and pound is a strategic approach to fighting. You can break that approach down into strategic steps -- get in and clinch, take him down, get dominant position, maintain dominant position, deliver your weapons. It's the same with WCK, the faat gives you a break down into strategic steps of the WCK method of fighting, daap, jeet, chum, biu, chi. That's what we are trying to do when we fight. It's our game plan. Our tools are means of implementing that plan. Just like a GNPer needs some skills to clinch and take down, we need stills to daap and jeet, to join and close the opponent's down.

Let's say my opponent's arms are between us. I am not going to try and just hit him in the head through his arm (since he can hit me too), so I will hit his arms (daap) -- in this way, I stop his ability to hit me (jeet). But, my hit is to break (chum) his structure via his arms.

These are just some of the "mental methods" that Robert Chu uses: Daap/Join, Jeet/Intercept/Interrupt, Chum/Sink/Break, Biu/Dart, Chi/Stick. As you can see they don't refer to a specific technique, but rather a strategy. Multiple techniques could be used to "Daap" or to "Jeet", etc.

[Firehawk4]

I thought Lee Shing new Ko Lo Pien San Wing Chun wasnt Lee Shing a student of Yip Man maybe Lee Shing showed Yip Man some of the Ko Lo Pien San Wing Chun ?

[Vajramusti]

I thought Lee Shing new Ko Lo Pien San Wing Chun wasnt Lee Shing a student of Yip Man maybe Lee Shing showed Yip Man some of the Ko Lo Pien San Wing Chun ?
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Possibly Li Li Sing was the real teacher of Lee Shing and Ip Man, they trained together in secret:-

[Firehawk4]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3dD6_7mzAQs

[Firehawk4]

Acording to this article Yip Man taught Lee Shing his Wing Chun as everybody knows in the 1950 s or 1960 s so would Lee Shing have shown Yip Man some of his Ko Lo Pien San Wing Chun even if Yip Man didnt use or learn any of it wouldnt Yip have been exposed to Ko lo Pien San Wing Chun ?
http://www.wingchunpedia.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php?n=WCP.LeeShing

[KPM]

I thought Lee Shing new Ko Lo Pien San Wing Chun wasnt Lee Shing a student of Yip Man maybe Lee Shing showed Yip Man some of the Ko Lo Pien San Wing Chun ?


Lee Shing is said to have learned KLPS from Fung Sang. That is well known. I would take the idea that he studied KLPS with Fung Lim early in his childhood with a little skepticism. There is always that generational "one-upmanship" to consider in TCMAs. Fung Sang was actively teaching in Hong Kong in the early 1970's. So it is likely that Lee Shing actually learned from Fung Sang AFTER his time with Yip Man. Either way, those "18 Yip Man San Sik" do not match the KLPS San Sik and are very unlikely to have come from Lee Shing.

[KPM]

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Possibly Li Li Sing was the real teacher of Lee Shing and Ip Man, they trained together in secret:-


Have you stooped to spamming what have otherwise been worthwhile threads now Joy? :(

[tc101]

Short sequences practiced individually....or strung together in a series....what's the real difference? Not much in my mind.

I learned the difference between what my teacher called the substance and the form. The form and I am not speaking just about fixed sets is a way of conveying the underlying substance. You can convey the same substance in multiple ways or forms.

A person can learn the SLT set and never get the substance. They can also learn the substance it conveys without learning the set.

[KPM]

I learned the difference between what my teacher called the substance and the form. The form and I am not speaking just about fixed sets is a way of conveying the underlying substance. You can convey the same substance in multiple ways or forms.

A person can learn the SLT set and never get the substance. They can also learn the substance it conveys without learning the set.

Yes! Good way to put it!

[LoneTiger108]

Lee Shing is said to have learned KLPS from Fung Sang. That is well known. I would take the idea that he studied KLPS with Fung Lim early in his childhood with a little skepticism. There is always that generational "one-upmanship" to consider in TCMAs. Fung Sang was actively teaching in Hong Kong in the early 1970's. So it is likely that Lee Shing actually learned from Fung Sang AFTER his time with Yip Man. Either way, those "18 Yip Man San Sik" do not match the KLPS San Sik and are very unlikely to have come from Lee Shing.

I know of my Sigung returning to his hometown Hoksan after Ip Man passed away to see what the locals were going to do and research more than he had already done so before he met Ip Man in HK in the 1950's. Although Kulo is within the Hoksan area, it is also understood by myself that Lee Shing never visited Kulo. He is known for learning from the Fung family as they were friends and all knew each other in their youth, so he has been linked with a few.

Whatever combination he taught his students it has always been understood that he was a private student of Ip Man and not interested in running a Martial Arts business as he was a successful restaurant owner. He loved to share his Wing Chun and chose to approach Ip Man for a Baisi so he could plan future promotions on his behalf in the UK. Jiu Wan is known to have witnessed this time, among others, and the Ip family today confirm this too. As time passed he taught different methods to different students and Joe Lee is known more for his teachings of the Fung family way.

Again, I do not tend to label that stuff as Kulo. If we were to name his lifetimes work after a city it would be London because that is where all his teaching blossomed. Where and who he actually learnt from since he was a child is still being researched to this day and as far as teaching a loose method, or breaking down sets for analysis and simplification, I myself do so often and have created many subsets that assist in coaching Wing Chun ideas.

[LoneTiger108]

I forgot to mention that Austin Goh also openly teaches a 'Pien San' method and has done so for at least 2 decades now. From my limited understanding he has quite a few subsets (over 20) that Sigung showed him and some that he has built into his system himself over the years too. This would be akin to training in a 'San Sik' way and it is an additional thing, not something that exists on it's own.

In hindsight I have to also mention here, as I haven't posted in a long time and some here may not know me, that I personally was a Jun Mo student Sifu and so my view and my interpretation of what Sigung passed to my Sifu is different than both kung fu uncles, but I am pretty sure that we all end up heading in the same direction!!

[KPM]

Not sure if this is Cho Ga/Yik Kam WCK? Looks like a lot of San Sik strung together to me.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uBsAo27N0jI

[hunt1]

Not sure if this is Cho Ga/Yik Kam WCK? Looks like a lot of San Sik strung together to me.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uBsAo27N0jI


Version of Cho Ga

[Cho Gar]

Version of Cho Ga

That's master ku Choi wah showing a version of the cho gar SLT. It's not San Sik strung together.

[KPM]

That's master ku Choi wah showing a version of the cho gar SLT. It's not San Sik strung together.

Hello and welcome to the forum! Thanks for the clarification. The youtube video was not labeled very well so I wasn't sure. I realize I poorly worded what I stated, but people following this discussion will know what I meant. I did not mean that the Cho Ga form or anyone else's form was "just" San Sik strung together. Rather this was my point from further up in the thread:


So again, what is the big difference between training these short sequences individually compared to putting them together in one form? Not much in my opinion!

My way of thinking goes like this: Wing Chun forms are different from many of the typical CMA forms we see because they are not a "choreographed fight." They do not rehearse or teach specific moves against an opponent. Rather they train short sequences of moves in a series....like multiple San Sik strung together. KLPSWCK chooses to emphasize training the short sequences individually. Other forms of WCK choose to train them in a series as a long form. This Cho Gar video is another example of that. I think both ways are good and there is no real difference in the end. Others have disagreed with me.

Anyway....nice to see someone from the Cho Gar family here! I hope you will stick around and participate in our discussions. The more diversity in WCK families the better! And the Cho Gar family is one we very seldom here anything about!

[Cho Gar]

Thanks for the welcome,
I look forward to participating in discussions with all you and hopefully shed a little light on Cho Gar.
I think at the moment there's some misunderstanding about our art. For example, I've read on a few forums that people think the cho family added stuff into the SLT but this isn't the case. The Cho family practice other arts apart from wing chun and have modified some of them with wing chun mechanics and principles and this might be where people are getting confused.
Here's a few links to some of our stuff-


Some Public video's of GM Ku Choi Wah of Ban Chung Zheng Dan Kam Wing Chun as taught by the Cho Family



36 Pattern SLT
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oRbpfs31N20

Sup Sam Sao (13 Hands)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E98f1aNV4jU


Some Basic's of Sup Sam Sao
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ISJjbI4fDs

Various
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CbEhtRGHf3U

Partial 36 Pattern SLT
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eBN2Dy2-C3Y

Penang Martial Arts Gathering 2007
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WTKYQHffi3U

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Do9x62dxmo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bc32JdEnXEc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z-zUrTTbk3U

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OlOK81jDfcs

Hong Kong Kung Fu Corner

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uBsAo27N0jI

[Firehawk4]

Cho Gar dos nt your Cho Gar also have Choy Li Fut and Hung Gar systems from the Cho villiage to what are they like ?

[KPM]

Here's a few links to some of our stuff-


Some Public video's of GM Ku Choi Wah of Ban Chung Zheng Dan Kam Wing Chun as taught by the Cho Family





Thanks for the videos! Definitely some strong resemblance to KLPS in the body mechanics. These videos may get lost in this thread if there are not so many people following it. You should start a new thread of your own and introduce yourself and post this videos. That way more people are likely to see them.

[Vajramusti]

That's master ku Choi wah showing a version of the cho gar SLT. It's not San Sik strung together.
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It'a full form. Interesting. Thx for your comment and sharing.

[Cho Gar]

Cho Gar dos nt your Cho Gar also have Choy Li Fut and Hung Gar systems from the Cho villiage to what are they like ?

I've mainly concentrated on our wing chun so I don't feel the CLF I've been taught qualifies me enough to say to be honest. I think there's a video of someone performing Cho Ga CLF somewhere on YouTube. Firehawk, If you're really interested you should contact Master Ku and visit him in Malaysia.