Original Leung Jan Wing Chun

[Firehawk4]

I didnt know where to put this old topic i found on a forum on google Sorry for posting your old post Jim but i thought this topic was important about Leung Jans Wing Chun
Subject: Where did the real Leung Jan wing chun go? Author: Tam Bing Date: 5/25/2002 3:31:31 AM IP: 205.188.193.54
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Hi all wing chun sihingdai,
Currently there are so many people learning wing chun all over the southern China: Canton, Fatshan, Macus and Hong Kong. I have seen enongh to say that the real Leung Jan wing chun is still missing, some forty years ago, I was only fifteen years old boy, I had an exprience to see a style of wing chun was very effective system went against the pa-kua fighters. Matter of fact, my uncle was almost got killed by this chanlleger (Leung Jan wing chun fighter). All I knew this style once was called Leung Jan wing chun in Fatshan. My uncle had spent over twenty-some years to find this style all over the southern China, but somehow this style was gone. Six years ago I had travel to Hong Kong, met with Yip Chun, he mentioned that there might be still some unknown lineage of Leung Jan wing chun members somewhere in China, but he didn't know anything about it. So where did the real Leung Jan wing chun go?

Tam B.
Subject: Re: Where did the real Leung Jan wing chun go? Author: James Roselando Date: 6/18/2002 1:37:19 PM IP: 64.156.135.139
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Your thoughts on Leung Jan's WC have been running thru my mind for a long time now. I believe that his Futshan lineages do not have the flavor/representation or stylistic traits of his teaching. I am a practitioner of Leung Jan WC from his time spent in Koo Lo village. During his time spent there he developed a simple art called Pin Sun Wing Chun. To the best of my knowledge we are the only WC clan preserving Leung sifu's boxing that has not gone thru Chan Wah Shun! You must be careful with what you read now a days claiming to be Koo Lo village WC but indeed our clan has been preserving his art privately for many years now and regard it as a treasure.

From what I have researched, and experienced, Leung Jan sifu's teaching is most "similar" to that of the Yuen Kay San clan headed by Sum Nung sifu. Although, YKS incorporated the Kum Na Sao of Fung Siu Ching's Weng Chun, and Sum Nung incorporated the San Sik of Cheung Bo, the root proper boxing of their art is quite similar to ours. Other than that I have not found much that I consider a close relative!

Although Chan Wah Shun was a top fighter under Leung sifu, his teaching seems to have a bit of a different structure and I sometimes believe it was do to his size compared to the size of Leung sifu. Wong Sam, Leung Jan's top pupil from Koo Lo, was more similar in size to Leung sifu so perhaps this is why his boxing may represent the older WC methods. Oh well, lots to think about!

Leung Jan--Wong Sam--Fung Chun--Fung Chiu--Mui Wai Hun--Me


These are the names of Leung Jan sifu's pupils from Futshan

Chan Wah Shun
Lo Kam
Lau Man Kay
Fung Wah
Leung Kai
Ho Han Loi
Tse Biu
Leung Bik
"Ju Yuk" Kwai
"Muk Yan" Wah
"Dai Shun" Shu


These are the names of Leung Jan sifu's pupils from Koo Lo

Wong Sam
Yik Ying
Leung Bak Chung

Regards,
Jim

[Jim Roselando]

This is an old chat from over a decade ago.

Today I don't agree with everything I wrote.

Take care...

[KPM]

Hey Jim!

Which of that information do you see differently now? Thanks!

[Jim Roselando]

Kieth,

One thing would be my thoughts on the Chan family and why their flavor is different?

I thought it was due to CWS's size but I don't believe that is accurate. The reason they have a different flavor is because they are into Nam Kuen and evolved differently...

Peace,

Jim

[KPM]

Kieth,

One thing would be my thoughts on the Chan family and why their flavor is different?

I thought it was due to CWS's size but I don't believe that is accurate. The reason they have a different flavor is because they are into Nam Kuen and evolved differently...

Peace,

Jim

That is certainly true of what Chan Wah Shun's son passed on! But if Yui Choi is representative of what Ng Chung So taught, and if what Ng Chung So is representative of what Chan Wah Shun taught...then it isn't so clear. It could be that Chan Wah Shun's son was the one that added so much Nam Kuen material. Hard to know for sure.

[Jim Roselando]

I said, "they" were into Nam Kuen.

Meaning: Chan's decedents.

Nobody knows what CWS boxing looks like but there are stories of CWS having a close relationship with a certain Nam Kuen player so it may have been his kids or it may have started with CWS.

BTW: You cannot use Yiu Choi as an example:

Yiu family, and many others, have influence from the Yuen family.

[KPM]

I said, "they" were into Nam Kuen.

Meaning: Chan's decedents.

Nobody knows what CWS boxing looks like but there are stories of CWS having a close relationship with a certain Nam Kuen player so it may have been his kids or it may have started with CWS.

BTW: You cannot use Yiu Choi as an example:

Yiu family, and many others, have influence from the Yuen family.

Good points! Thanks! :) It would be very valuable to see some "pure" Ng Chung So lineage Wing Chun.

[kung fu fighter]

Good points! Thanks! :) It would be very valuable to see some "pure" Ng Chung So lineage Wing Chun.

This is as close to Ng Chung So's linage as you can find on the net

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OSgeDpItfQ8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QVHiRCnmTeA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WtcJrG9RVDo

[Jim Roselando]

Another Futshan combo system that links thru Yiu family which links to Yuen family...

Adios KFO...

[KPM]

Another Futshan combo system that links thru Yiu family which links to Yuen family...

Adios KFO...

Yeah. Fok Chiu was Yiu Choi's student, so what Jim said about Yiu Choi still applies! Interesting point here though. Yiu Choi's Wing Chun can't be seen as representative of Ng Chung So because he trained with and had a lot of influence from Yuen Kay Shan. So we would have to say the same thing about Yip Man! If YKS had a lot of influence on YC's WCK, then he would have also had a lot of influence on YM's WCK! They were all three training partners and YKS was technically the senior guy. This is likely why Robert Chu and others have said that YKS is the "missing link" that Yip Man was covering with the Leung Bik story. I still think its most likely that Yip Man was actually using the story to cover influence from multiple sources like Yuen Kay Shan, Fung Wah, Chu Chong Man, and Tang Yik. "Leung Bik" was probably an all-inclusive cover story for anything Yip Man wanted to do that was different from his classmates!

[PalmStriker]

Except that Robert Chu's listing with the YKS lineage can be viewed as "lacking impartiality" on the subject. :D Also you will note that if you watch some of the old Bruce Lee movies you will see that he wasn't really a very good actor, looking at the Hong Kong standard of the day. He will always be a great actor to lots of people, though.

[Vajramusti]

The coulda been woulda been theories of history are having a field day.

[kung fu fighter]

Another Futshan combo system that links thru Yiu family which links to Yuen family...Adios KFO...

Agree! However Fok Chiu, met and trained with Ng Chung So, as well as yip Man, and Yuen kay san so he can explain the differences. I know this because one of my kung fu brother is a student of his and Fok Chiu often explain the differences between Leung Jan's Linage and Yuen Kay San's since he knows both versions.

[KPM]

The coulda been woulda been theories of history are having a field day.

When left with little documentation, you have to go with the "most probables." Real historians do that all the time. You construct the best story that makes what is known fit together and then modify it as more information comes to light. Just because the story that develops or the information coming to light doesn't match up with what you would like to believe doesn't make it any less valid.

[KPM]

Except that Robert Chu's listing with the YKS lineage can be viewed as "lacking impartiality" on the subject. :D Also you will note that if you watch some of the old Bruce Lee movies you will see that he wasn't really a very good actor, looking at the Hong Kong standard of the day. He will always be a great actor to lots of people, though.

And your point is?????????

[tc101]

When left with little documentation, you have to go with the "most probables." Real historians do that all the time. You construct the best story that makes what is known fit together and then modify it as more information comes to light. Just because the story that develops or the information coming to light doesn't match up with what you would like to believe doesn't make it any less valid.

I don't think you have to go with what is most probable and when you have little verified info to base conclusions on I think it is irresponsible to do so. The responsible and I think honest answer is to say I don't know and admit there just isn't enough solid evidence to know.

[KPM]

I don't think you have to go with what is most probable and when you have little verified info to base conclusions on I think it is irresponsible to do so. The responsible and I think honest answer is to say I don't know and admit there just isn't enough solid evidence to know.

Yes, that or simply note that the story is a theory that is subject to change as more things come to light. Its natural to look for answers to questions that don't have very clear answers. As long as the theories don't get sold as the "truth."

[tc101]

Yes, that or simply note that the story is a theory that is subject to change as more things come to light. Its natural to look for answers to questions that don't have very clear answers. As long as the theories don't get sold as the "truth."

You really do not see what is so very wrong with that?

[KPM]

You really do not see what is so very wrong with that?

No. Why don't you enlighten us? A theory is formulated to explain how known evidence fits together and may evolve as data is collected. This happens in historical/sociological research. Anthropologists do this all the time.

[tc101]

No. Why don't you enlighten us? A theory is formulated to explain how known evidence fits together and may evolve as data is collected. This happens in historical/sociological research. Anthropologists do this all the time.

They are not doing what you guys are doing. Even your so called known evidence is mostly assumptions and guess work and the reasoning is loose.

[KPM]

They are not doing what you guys are doing. Even your so called known evidence is mostly assumptions and guess work and the reasoning is loose.

Whatever dude. :rolleyes:

[Firehawk4]

http://wingchunkuen.me/tag/pao-fa-lien-wing-chun-kuen/

[kung fu fighter]

I also found these two articles interesting, one talks about the wing chun bagua stepping method, and the other about the wing chun team loosing in 1969 http://wingchunkuen.me/2013/06/18/foshan-wing-chun-derek-frearson/#more-1073
http://wingchunkuen.me/2013/01/04/100-years-of-yipm-man-emin-boztepe/

[KPM]

http://wingchunkuen.me/tag/pao-fa-lien-wing-chun-kuen/

I would take that whole thing with a big dose of skepticism! After all, right at the beginning they state that all Wing Chun lineages trace back to Leung Jan. Well, Yuen Kay Shan certainly doesn't! And his style is well-known in China and Hong Kong! This is almost entirely a promotional piece. If you are trying to promote your style of Pao Fao Lien, what better way than to say that its founder taught the famous Leung Jan!

[Firehawk4]

I am not promoting Pao Fa Lien Wing Chun i dont even know this system i wish i did though . I guess a person would have to go to Hong Kong to learn it or maybe Mainland China if you could find it there in Foshan .

[kung fu fighter]

???
Did Yip Man know/teach other kung fu alongside his wing chun?

no, wing chun already have the bagua steps, but apparently this aspect of the system was only taught in Foshan and not in Hong Kong according to the article.


I am not promoting Pao Fa Lien Wing Chun i dont even know this system i wish i did though . I guess a person would have to go to Hong Kong to learn it or maybe Mainland China if you could find it there in Foshan .

I don't think Keith was referring to you, he was referring to the writer of the article.

[Eric_H]

???
Did Yip Man know/teach other kung fu alongside his wing chun?

Apparently, it's not like the stepping from the martial art Bagua, just a common name.

YM trained some Chi Sim stuff at one point, but the depth of which and with who is up for debate.

[KPM]

I don't think Keith was referring to you, he was referring to the writer of the article.

Yes, Navin is right. I wasn't referring to you Firehawk. Thanks for posting the links to the videos. Its always interesting to see other styles of Wing Chun!

[PalmStriker]

:) BACK on TRACK: http://www.wingchunillustrated.com/2013/04/16/kulo-wing-chun/

[Firehawk4]

Interesting that the article says that Wong Wah Sam was Leung Jans Sisters Son does this mean Leung Jan had a sister ? I read another article that said Leung Jan had a brother named Leung Wa Nam i think that was his name .

[Firehawk4]

The brothers name was Leung Dak Nam .